20销售：为何在产品前需要首席营收官 | 远程销售团队为何行不通 | Snowflake如何与Chad Peets共建销售机器

你认为销售负责人或首席营收官在产品开发前能带来哪些创始人无法提供的东西？

What do you believe that sales leaders or CROs pre product bring that a founder cannot?

他们提问的广泛性？

The extensive nature of the questions they ask?

大多数创始人（并非全部）是产品型、技术型人才，而非销售型人才。

Most founders, not all, but most founders are product people, engineering people, not salespeople.

举个例子，如果某人是前工程副总裁，这个人真的是最适合打上千个推销电话的人选吗？

So is a is a former VP of engineering, just to pick somebody, is that person the best person to make thousands of phone calls?

话说回来，他们有时间打成千上万个电话联系这些人吗？还要进行那些探索性对话，然后收集所有数据，进行总结分析，最后反馈给产品和工程团队。

Do they have the time, by the way, to make thousands of phone calls and reach out to these people and do those discovery types of conversations and then capture all that data, summarize it and make sense of it so that you can then give it back to the product and engineering organization.

这不是他们应该做的事。

That's not what they should be doing.

而且说实话，他们也不是做这事的最佳人选。

And by the way, they're not the best people to do it.

所以我们经常听到这种说法，创始人应该亲自制定销售手册。

So we always hear that actually, you know, you should create the sales playbook as the founder.

等有了初步的销售手册后，再去聘请销售主管。

And then once you have some form of early playbook, you should hire the sales leader.

嗯。

Yeah.

我不同意

I don't agree

这个观点。

with that.

你觉得这是胡扯吗？

You think that's BS?

我不想说这是胡扯。

I don't wanna say it's BS.

我认为这完全本末倒置了。

I think it's backwards.

你需要销售人员来制定销售手册。

You need a salesperson to create the sales playbook.

工程副总裁对制定销售手册能了解多少？

How what does a VP of engineering know about creating a sales playbook?

让他们持续贴近客户不是非常重要吗？

Is it not just so important for them to continuously be so close to the customer?

我担心的是

What I worry

100%同意。

100%.

他们应该参与进来。

They should be involved.

对吧？

Right?

他们应该参与，而且我们会让首席营收官带创始人参与部分这类对话。

They should and and when we'll have the CRO bring in the founder to some of these conversations.

但话说回来，即使工程副总裁完全胜任这项工作，他们哪来的时间？

But again, even if the VP of engineering was super qualified to do it, how are they finding the hours?

我们说的是要打上千个这样的电话。

We're talking about thousands of these phone calls.

你得联系目标对象，协调通话时间，找到愿意和你交流的人。

And you have to reach out to the people, coordinate the phone call, get people that are willing to talk to you.

对吧？

Right?

光是安排这些对话就需要耗费大量时间和精力。

It's it's it's a lot of time and effort just to get the conversation set up.

你们的创始人，这是一份全职工作。

Your founder, it's a full time job.

事实上，这可能需要两三个人全职投入。

In fact, it's a full time job for probably a couple people.

那么按照这个逻辑，你们是否必须进行大规模种子轮融资？

So do you then have to, by nature, raise large seed rounds?

因为如果要引进首席营收官和几名员工，两三百万美元的种子轮根本不够。

Because if you're gonna bring in a CRO and a couple of people, this is not a 2 to $3,000,000 seed round.

是的。

Yeah.

通常来说，确实如此。

Usually, we're yeah.

一般来说，你需要不止几百万美元才能做到这一点。

Usually, you're gonna need more than a couple million bucks to do this.

不需要2000万，但大概需要1000万。

You don't need 20, but you probably need 10.

这真的是一个可行且现实的选择吗？

Is that a genuinely viable and realistic option,

萨特山风投，我们与众不同。

Sutter Hill, we're different.

我们孵化自己的项目。

We incubate our own stuff.

所以我们做的每件事，都是在萨特山风投的体系内孵化的。

So everything we do, we incubate inside the four walls of Sutter Hill.

所以我无法判断这是否适用于其他人。

So I I can't talk to whether or not this is the right formula for others.

但这正是萨特山（Sutter Hill）的正确模式。

This is the right formula for Sutter Hill.

所以一旦你

So once you

顺便说一句，这正是我认为我们在自建公司方面全球领先的原因之一。

And by the way, it's one of the reasons I think we're the best in the world at building our own companies.

我完全同意这一点。

I I agree with that completely.

我认为数据很可能证明了这一点。

I think the data probably shows that.

但当你真正拥有CRO（首席营收官）后，我特别好奇的是——我们之前聊天时你说过，你对打造理想的销售团队充满热情。

But once you have that CRO then in place, I'm just intrigued because when we chatted before, you said that you're super passionate about building the right type of sales org.

当时听你这么说，我就觉得太棒了。

And I when you said this, I was like, great.

但现实中，理想的销售团队究竟意味着什么？

But what does the right type of sales org actually mean in reality?

你对此是怎么考虑的？

How do you think about that?

让我们先来讨论下这位CRO。

So let's think about the CRO that we're talking about.

当你与那些做过后期交易的CRO们交谈时，首先可以问他们：'你们与产品部门的关系如何？'

When you're talking to most CROs that are they've done later stage deals, first thing, one of the things you can ask them is what's your relationship like with the product organization?

谁负责设计你们的产品路线图？

Who has designed your product roadmap?

这个决定是从哪里来的？

Where does that come from?

大多数情况下，你会听到的回答是：我和产品营销团队讨论过。

More often than not, what you're going to hear is, oh, I talked to the product marketing people.

好吧，那么是谁设计产品路线图？

Okay, well, designs the product roadmap?

哦，是产品部门负责的。

Oh, the product organization does.

这样就有问题了，对吧？

You got problems, right?

因为产品部门会按照他们认为客户想买的方向去开发。

Because product organization is going to go build what they think the customer wants to buy.

真正了解客户需求的是直接与客户沟通的人。

The person that knows what the customer wants to buy is the person that's talking to the customer.

就是首席营收官（CRO）。

It's the CRO.

所以你需要一位经验丰富、足够资深的CRO，能够与产品部门协作设计产品路线图，比如我现在随便举个例子

So you need a CRO that has experience and is sophisticated enough to go work collaboratively with the product organization to design the product roadmap and say, look, right now I'm just making this up.

我们有50个ICP客户。

We have 50 ICP accounts.

我目前只能向这50个客户销售，明白吗？

I can only sell into 50 accounts, right?

就像你和德格曼交谈时那样，对吧？

Like when you talk to Degman, right?

就像Snowflake早期那样，我们只能卖给广告技术账户。

Like in the very early days of Snowflake, we can only sell into ad tech accounts.

就是这样。

That's it.

他们当时只卖给广告技术公司。

They were just selling to ad tech.

所以当你想扩展目标客户画像时，以Snowflake为例要超越广告技术领域，你必须知道我需要什么来扩展这个客户画像？

So as you want to expand that ICP, in Snowflake's case beyond ad tech, you have to know what do I need to expand that ICP?

需要哪些功能、哪些安全措施、产品需要什么，才能让我从50个目标客户扩展到500个。

What features, what security things, what does the product need so I can go from 50 ICP accounts to 500 ICP accounts.

因此你必须弄清楚这些功能是什么。

And so you have to figure out what those features are.

然后你需要制定时间表并说：好吧，如果你在这个日期前交付这些功能，我就能把目标客户从50个扩展到100个。

And then you have to come up with a timeline and say, okay, if you deliver these features by this date, then I can expand from 50 to a 100 ICP accounts.

顺便说一句，如果我能把目标客户从50个扩展到100个，我就能增加销售人员。

And if I can expand from 50 to a 100 ICP accounts, by the way, I can add salespeople.

所以，

So Mr.

产品负责人先生，我将根据你承诺在约定时间内交付我们商定的功能，去招聘销售人员。

Product guy, I'm going to go hire salespeople based on your commitment to deliver the things we've agreed to in the timeline in which you agreed to deliver it.

但要明白一点，如果你未能按时交付，我将招来的销售人员会无客户可拜访——因为我们没有相应的产品支持。

But understand something, if you fail to deliver, I'm going to have salespeople that can't call on the accounts that they need to call on because we don't have the product to do it.

因此你需要一个理解这一切的首席营收官。

And so you need a CRO that understands all of this.

顺便说一句，这正是首席营收官们陷入困境的地方——他们会承受来自董事会和CEO的压力，要求加速增长。

And by the way, this is where CROs just get shacked because they will get pressure from boards, CEOs to say we need to grow faster.

你需要雇佣更多销售人员。

You need to hire more salespeople.

去招聘更多销售人员吧。

Go hire more salespeople.

好吧，现在我有了50名销售人员。

Okay, well, now I have 50 salespeople.

你想让我扩充到100人吗？

You want me to go to 100?

要扩大到100人，我需要在现有客户中开发更多用例，或者必须能够向其他客户销售产品。

Well, in order to go to 100, I either need more use cases inside the existing accounts or I have to go and be able to sell to other accounts.

从产品角度，你能提供什么来支持我实现这个目标？

What are you going to give to me from a product standpoint that's going to enable me to do it?

但这类对话往往根本不会发生。

Conversation oftentimes just doesn't happen.

我只是好奇。

I'm just interested.

当我们考虑从50个理想客户画像扩展到150个时，那些我们希望新增的销售线索提出的产品需求，在多大程度上是共通的？他们都想要同样的东西吗？

When we think about kind of moving from 50 ICP accounts to 150, to what extent in the product requests of those sales prospects that we want to add to that ICP profile, to what extent is that product requests common and they all want the same thing?

如果每个人都想要不同的东西，你会怎么做？就像...

What do you do if it's like everyone kind of wants something different and it's like

这是一个非常常见的错误。

So so here's a real common mistake.

于是你雇佣了10个销售代表。

So you hire 10 reps.

结果这些销售代表只会追逐金钱。

So what a rep is going to chase money.

如果你没有理想客户档案，我最不愿看到的就是'我刚招了10个销售'这种情况。

So if you don't have ICP accounts, what I never want to see is, hey, I just hired 10 reps.

我在纽约、达拉斯、旧金山和洛杉矶各安排了一名销售代表。

I put a rep in New York, rep in Dallas and a rep in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

还告诉他们可以负责这些地区的所有客户。

And I told them they can have all the accounts in those geographies.

那你可就麻烦大了。

You're in deep shit.

因为这些销售代表会怎么做？

Because what's the rep gonna do?

他们只会去追逐大单。

He's gonna go chase big dollars.

不管男女销售都会这么做。

He or she is gonna go pay.

他们会直接打电话联系。

So they're gonna go call.

比如'我要去富国银行推销'。

Hey, I'm gonna go sell into Wells Fargo.

我认为富国银行想和我们合作500万美元的项目。

I think Wells Fargo wants to spend $5,000,000 with us.

哦，真的吗？

Oh really?

好吧。

Okay.

那位代表会把所有时间都花在追逐富国银行上。

That rep's going to spend all his time chasing Wells Fargo.

富国银行会带着这么长的清单回来，列出他们需要在产品中看到的所有东西。

Wells Fargo is going to come back with a list this long of all the shit they need to see in the product.

那位代表会想回到产品部门说，给我这些。

That rep is going to want to go back to the product organization and say, give me this.

现在，如果只有富国银行需要所有这些呢？

Now, what if Wells Fargo is the only person that needs all of that stuff?

你刚刚让公司转移了所有资源，去为一个可能买也可能不买的公司打造一份需求清单。

You've just taken the company and diverted all resources to go build a list of things for a company that may or may not buy.

但即使他们买了，你也毁了公司，对吧？

But even if they buy, you've killed the company, right?

因为你把所有资源都集中在一个客户上了。

Because you've taken all the resources to focus on one account.

即使你拿下了这个客户，你也麻烦大了。

Even if you get the account, you're in deep shit.

所以正如你所说，你必须能够审视所有数据。

So to your point, you have to be able to look at all the data.

这就是为什么我说要打上千通电话，通过收集所有这些数据，我知道如果我们未来六个月完成这五件事，就能让我把客户数量从50家增加到150家，因为我有数据支撑。

That's why I said thousands of phone calls and say, I know through capturing all of this data that if we build these five things over the next six months, I know it will allow me to go from 50 to 150 accounts because I have the data.

为什么销售部门不做产品营销？

Why is sales not doing product marketing?

如果你真要和上千个刻薄的人通话，我是认真的。

If you have a thousand calls with mean, I'm being serious.

那只会暂停一下。

It would just pause.

就让我继续推进这件事吧。

Just let me run with this.

如果你有上千次——不是字面意思，但确实有数百次客户通话，你会听到他们的用词，看到他们如何描述痛点、寻找什么、因何兴奋。

If you have a thousand like, not literally, but, know, hundreds of calls with customers, you see the words, you see how they describe pain, the things that they look for, what excites them.

你就能打造最具说服力的广告文案、户外广告等，因为你是沉浸在这些客户对话中的人。

You can create the most compelling copy campaigns, billboards, you name it, because you're the ones that live those customer conversations.

为什么你们也不做产品营销？

Why are you not doing product marketing too?

我的意思是，因为销售人员——顺便说，确实有些人在做。

I mean, because salespeople and by the way, there are some that are.

对吧？

Right?

只是说清楚。

Just to be clear.

所以我遇到过销售不信任产品营销部门，自己制作内容的情况。

So I have had situations where sales doesn't trust product marketing and will generate their own content.

这种情况确实会发生。

So that does happen.

销售人员虽然擅长收集和理解数据，但这并不意味着他们必然擅长内容创作。

But salespeople, as good as they are as capturing and understanding the data, that doesn't mean they're necessarily great at creating content.

所以你要让他们做的是收集所有信息，反馈给产品营销部门，让产品营销部门来制定宣传信息。

So what you want them to do is capture all of the information, feed it back into product marketing, and let product marketing create the messaging.

好的。

Okay.

当我们考虑构建那种理想的销售团队时，企业在组建过程中最容易犯哪些重大错误？

When we think about that right type of sales org, what are the biggest ways that companies go wrong in creating that sales org?

如果CEO不支持产品部门和销售部门之间的协作，那就有问题了。

If the CEO does not support the collaboration between product and sales, you got a problem.

现在他们各自为政。

Now they operate in silos.

结果就是产品部门会按照自己的想法开发产品。

And what will happen is the product organization will build what the product organization wants to build.

销售人员卖不动，因为这根本不是客户想要的。

Sales guys are struggling to sell it because it's not what the customers want.

产品部门会对销售部门说：你们太差劲了。

Product organization says to the sales organization, you suck.

我们产品都做出来了。

We built the product.

你们却卖不出去。

You can't sell it.

你们这些人不行。

You guys are not good.

销售部门说你们搞错了方向。

Sales organization says you built the wrong shit.

现在不仅让他们各自为政，彼此之间还互不信任。

Now not only do you have them operating in silos, they don't trust each other.

我见过这种情况，结局都不好。

And I've seen this, and it does not end well.

而且这并不罕见。

And it's not that uncommon.

好的。

Okay.

我是CEO，这事我来处理。

I'm the CEO, and I have this.

我这儿就存在他们互不信任的问题。

I have this where they don't trust each other.

产品和销售部门之间存在这种不良文化。

There is this bad culture between product and sales.

查德，我现在该怎么办？

Chad, what do I do now?

帮帮我。

Help me.

你来得正好。

You've come in.

领导。

Lead.

领导。

Lead.

作为CEO，你的职责就是成为领导者。

Your job as a CEO is to be a leader.

领导。

Lead.

你有两个必须协作的职能部门。

You have two functions that must collaborate.

促使他们协作，让他们理解彼此的需求。

Get them to collaborate, get them to understand the need for each other.

销售需要产品，产品需要销售。

Sales needs product, product needs sales.

他们不能独立运作。

They cannot work independently.

这会影响收入，所以你要向产品部门解释销售组织的需求。

And there is a revenue hit like and that's why you want to explain the sales organization needs explain to the product organization.

如果你不交付我需要的东西，我基于你交付该产品所做的预测就会落空。

If you don't deliver the things that I need, I have a forecast out there that's based on you delivering that product.

如果你不交付那个产品，我就会错过预测目标。

If you don't deliver that product, I will miss my forecast.

因此产品部门直接与收入挂钩，他们需要明白虽然不直接对销售负责，但仍对收入负有责任。

So there is a revenue component tied directly into the product organization and the product organization needs to understand that they are in fact, while not as directly responsible to sales, they're still responsible for revenue.

因此作为CEO，你必须理解这一点，并让他们协同合作。

And so as a CEO, you have to understand that and you have to get them to work collaboratively together.

我觉得现在销售组织最操蛋的就是考核和激励机制。

The thing I find just so fucked in sales orgs today is like measuring and incentives.

就像你说的，你知道，和收入挂钩那种。

And you said like, you know, tied to revenue there.

但还有些考核指标五花八门，什么营销合格线索、销售合格线索，应有尽有。

But then we have some that are like tied to a load of different metrics, whether it's MQLs, SQLs, you name it.

我就想问，现在销售团队到底该怎么正确看待归因和成功标准？

And I'm just going like, what is the right way to think about attribution and success within sales teams today?

你希望引导什么行为？

What behavior do you want to do?

销售人员的优势就在于行为可预测。

What behavior do you salespeople are great because they're predictable.

我完全可以通过设计薪酬方案来引导你们做出任何我想要的行为。

I can I can get you to do whatever I want you to do by setting up the comp plan accordingly?

所以你会

So would you have

如果我想

if I want

你会根据不同合作公司制定不同的归因模型吗？

Would you have different attribution then according to different companies that you work with?

还是永远只认销售带来的收入？

Or is it always we're revenue with sales?

是的。

Yeah.

这这这是有可能的。

It it it can be.

你得看看业务情况，对吧？

You gotta look at the business, right?

比如说，你观察一个业务然后说，好吧，我们的土地流转情况真的很好。

Like, let's say you look at a business and say, okay, our land motion is really good.

我们正在着陆，这些数字是我编的。

We're landing, I'm making these numbers up.

我们平均的土地销售周期是四个月。

We're landing the average land sales cycle is four months.

我们以75千的速度着陆。

We're landing at 75 ks.

好的，这是个不错的土地流转情况。

Okay, that's a good land motion.

对此我很满意。

I'm happy with that.

现在我的扩展周期需要十二个月，我要从75开始扩展，最终扩展量是50。

Now my expand motion is taking twelve months and I'm expanding from 75 and I'm getting an expansion of 50.

这可不太妙。

That's not good.

扩展的销售周期太长，而且分配给扩展的金额也不够高。

The sales cycle for the expand is too long and the dollar assigned to the expand is not high enough.

我可以开始在薪酬计划中调整不同的杠杆。

I can start to pull different levers in the comp plan.

所以我能说，嘿，先生。

So I can say, Hey, Mr.

销售代表，我会给你土地销售10%的提成。

Sales rep, I'm gonna pay you 10% on the land.

我会给你扩展业务12%的提成。

I'm gonna pay you 12% on the expand.

仅仅通过这样做，我就能让团队更关注扩展业务，因为我调整了这个杠杆。

And just by doing that, I'm gonna get a lot more focus on the expand because I pulled that lever.

你认为需要多大的年度合同价值（ACV）才能支撑起合理的销售流程？

How big an ACV do you think you have to have to have a proper sales motion to justify it?

所以我目前最大的担忧是，很多SaaS公司的ACV只有1万美元。

So my biggest worry today is you see a lot of SaaS companies have 10 k ACV's.

说实话，天啊，当你配备了SDR（销售开发代表）、AE（客户经理）和客户成功团队，但ACV只有1万美金且存在扩展波动时，这根本不够。

And actually, Jesus, when you have SDRs, AEs, customer success, for a 10 ks ACV that has a variability on expansion, it's not enough.

是的，这是个问题。

Yeah, that's a problem.

首先你必须明确：我属于内部销售组织、外部销售组织，还是两者兼具？

So first of all, you have to decide, am I an inside sales organization or an outside sales organization or both?

最好是两者兼具，对吧？

Hopefully both, right?

你确实需要兼顾两者，因为这样既能获得快速流转的业务，也能拿下企业级业务——这两者你都需要。

You really want to get both because if you have both, you can get the velocity business and you can get the enterprise business and you want both.

所以如果你看一个10ks ACV（年度合同价值），那绝对不是现场销售代表。

So if you look at a 10 ks ACV, well, that's definitely not a field sales rep.

如果我是一个10ks ACV，那我就是纯粹的内部销售，而且最好能把销售成本压得很低。

If I'm a 10 ks ACV, then I'm exclusively inside sales, and I better be able to keep the cost of sale low.

否则，正如你所说，我无法证明其合理性。

Otherwise, to your point, I can't justify it.

单位经济效益根本行不通。

The unit economics don't work.

然后你必须决定在哪里划清内部销售和外部销售的界限，对吧？

And then you have to decide where do I draw the line between inside sales and outside sales, right?

假设你对内部销售20ks的交易很满意。

So let's just say you're happy with a 20 ks deal in the inside sales.

那么外部销售中你对什么数字会满意呢？

What number are you happy with in the outside sales?

这算是个粗略的基准。

And it's sort of a rough benchmark.

你希望能达到3倍的回报。

You want to be able to get a 3X.

所以这里存在生产力数字，对吧？

So there's productivity numbers, right?

比如生产力就是我们衡量一切的标准。

Like productivity is how we measure everything.

这算是个经验法则。

It's sort of a rule of thumb.

我的销售代表应该能实现三倍于OTE的业绩。

My reps should be able to generate three times their OTE.

如果你的OTE是300，粗略估算，你应该能达到900的生产力。

If your OTE is 300, rough numbers, you should be able to get 900 in productivity.

你们多久能实现一次？

How often do you get that?

那你最好做到，否则就无法实现规模化。

Well, you better get it or you're not scaling.

如果你有一个现场销售团队，有10名代表，生产力却只有600，那你最好别招人了。

If you have a field sales organization and you have 10 reps and the productivity is 600, you better not be hiring.

你必须必须提升那个生产力。

You need to you need to get that productivity.

在你把生产力提上去之前，或者至少能查看数据并看到趋势朝那个方向发展且你信任数据之前，你可以在达到生产力目标前提前招聘，但你必须信任数据。

And until such time as either you get that productivity up or at least can look at the data and see that it's trending in that direction and you trust that data, you can hire ahead of getting the productivity number, but you better trust the data.

你如何看待适应期？

How do you think about ramp time?

当我们考虑实现三倍OTE时，很多人会说，这是企业级销售。

When we think about getting to that three x OTE, a lot of people say, well, it's enterprise sales.

比如，销售周期非常长。

Like, it's it's very long sales cycles.

适应期很艰难。

The ramp time is tough.

你对此怎么看？

How do you think about that?

我是说，看，我希望企业级卖家能在六个月内达成目标。

I mean, look, where I want to see it is six months for for an enterprise seller.

所以内部有适应期，外部也有适应期。

So there's ramp times for inside ramp time for outside inside.

我更希望看到六个月外加九十天的期限。

I'd like to see ninety days outside six months.

现实情况是企业级项目往往需要九个月左右。

Reality is it probably trends more towards nine months in enterprise.

然后你就得开始层层剖析问题根源。

Then you have to start peeling back the layers of the onion.

为什么销售周期会这么长？

Why does it take are the sales cycles that long?

也许销售周期其实只有四个月。

Maybe the sales cycle is only four months.

好的。

Okay.

那为什么适应期要九个月？

Then why is the ramp time nine months?

对。

Right.

是培训赋能的问题吗？

Is it an enablement problem?

还是产品本身的问题？

Is it a product problem?

对。

Right.

还是说这就是行业的本质，我们对此无能为力？

Or is it just the nature of the business and there's nothing we can do about it?

但理想情况下，你希望是在六个月时完成。

But ideally, you want it to be at six months.

你认为人们或创始人会足够早地专门聘请销售支持人员吗？

Do you think people hire or founders specifically hire sales enablement early enough?

我对此很感兴趣。

And I'm intrigued.

你认为创始人在支持方面犯的最大错误是什么？

What do you think of the biggest mistakes you see founders make with enablement?

首先，这应该是首席营收官（CRO）的决定，而非创始人。

So first of all, it should be the CRO's decision, not the founders.

如果是10名销售代表，首席营收官可以应付得来。

The CRO, if it's 10 reps, you can handle it.

首席营收官可以亲自处理。

Like the CRO can be doing it.

问题在于，随着规模扩大，这需要变得程序化。

The problem is, as you start to scale, it needs to become programmatic.

当它变得程序化时，你的首席营收官就无法兼顾了。

And when it becomes programmatic, your CRO can't do it.

他还有其他需要处理的事务。

He's got other things he needs to be doing.

那么10个销售代表时，你需要一个赋能专员吗？

So at 10 reps, do you need an enablement person?

可能不需要。

Probably not.

每种情况显然都是独特的，但到了30到40人时，是的，你最好开始考虑这个问题。

And each circumstance clearly is unique, but at 30 to 40, yeah, you better start to think about it.

因此你希望信息传递和项目能统一推行。

And so you want the messaging and the program to be rolled out uniformly.

我不希望经理们各行其是。

I don't want managers doing their own thing.

所以经理们必须执行赋能工作，但他们必须按照赋能专员制定的赋能计划来执行。

So the managers have to execute on the enablement, but they have to execute on the enablement plan that the enablement person has created.

他们不能随心所欲地自行赋能，这种情况你时不时就会看到。

They cannot go off willy nilly and do their own enablement, and you will see that from time to time.

你刚才提到激励扩展的事情。

You said about kind of incentivizing expansions.

这让我想起之前和克里斯关于客户成功的对话。

It made me think of a conversation I had with Chris before when we spoke about CS, customer success.

通常客户成功团队被赋予扩展职责，要确保客户按预期进行扩展。

Often customer success are attributed or given the role of expansions and making sure that customers expand as they would want to.

这是个热门话题。

It's a hot topic.

我的意思是，这是个持续讨论的话题。

I mean, this is an ongoing conversation.

这已经持续多年了。

It has been for years.

客户成功很难实现。

Customer success is hard.

我不知道是否能找到一家公司并说他们真正做到了客户成功。

I I don't know that I can look at any one company and say they've nailed customer success.

正如克里斯可能告诉过你的，他们不相信客户成功。

As Chris, I'm sure told you, they don't believe in customer success.

Snowflake没有客户成功部门，至少以前没有。

They don't have a customer success organization at Snowflake, or at least they didn't.

也许他们后来成立了一个，但之前确实没有。

Maybe they've created one out, but they didn't.

当时的理念是每个人都在为客户成功努力。

The feeling was everybody's in customer success.

你同意这个观点吗？

Do you agree with that?

听着，Snowflake拥有世界级的产品。

Look, Snowflake has a world class product.

早期的时候情况很疯狂。

In the early days, it was crazy.

比如人们会先签15K的合同，结果六个月内就扩展到150K。

Like people would buy a 15 ks land deal and they'd expand to 150 in six months.

对吧？

Right?

当你拥有这样能自我扩展的产品时，就可以减少对客户成功团队的依赖。

So when you have product like that, that just expands on its own, you can get away with less customer success.

自Snowflake以来我就没见过这种情况。

I've not seen that since Snowflake.

确实没见过。

I haven't.

那么我是否相信客户成功的重要性？

So do I believe in customer success?

我相信。

I do.

目前你打算如何推进这件事？

Right now, how do you roll that out?

这是个开放性的讨论。

That's an open debate.

但我认为我不认同的是：销售代表完成签约后抽身而退，却让客户成功代表负责扩展业务。

But do I think you should that what I don't agree with is the rep does the land deal walks away and the customer success rep is responsible for expansion.

业务扩展属于销售范畴，对吧？

Expansion is sales, right?

但客户成功代表总体上需要确保，首先产品是否得到实施。

But the customer success rep high level needs to make sure, okay, number one is the product being implemented.

好的。

Okay.

他们是否已经用上产品了？

Have they got the product in?

第二点，他们是否在使用产品？

Number two, are they using the product?

他们是否达到了使用率目标？

And are they hitting their utilization rates?

他们是否超出了这些使用率目标？

Are they exceeding those utilization rates?

他们是否获得了价值？

Are they getting the value?

你的支持者是否从产品中获得了他们预期的价值？

Is your champion getting the value out of the product that he or she thought they would be getting?

他们是否会继续作为你的内部支持者，去和其他部门沟通让他们回头购买你的产品？

Are they going to continue to be a champion for you internally and go talk to other departments so that they come back and buy your stuff?

客户成功部门需要管理所有这些。

Customer success needs to be managing all that.

销售人员正在工作，应该这样与客户成功部门协作。

The salesperson is working, should be working like this with customer success.

他们应该紧密配合。

They should be hand in hand.

现实中并不总是这样，但理想状态本该如此。

You don't always see it that way, but that's the way it should be in

在我看来。

my opinion.

当你接触现在的创始人和企业时，你认为在销售与客户成功部门的关系方面，最常见的问题是什么？

When you see founders today and when you work with companies today, what are the biggest mistakes you see in terms of that relationship between sales and customer success?

你算是说中了一点。

You kind of hit on one.

其中一种情况就是，让销售代表去搞定客户，然后客户成功团队在那时接手。

One of them is just like, look, let the rep do the land and customer success is responsible at that point.

这也会导致销售代表做出非常糟糕的行为，因为他们根本不关注客户旅程。

That just also drives really shitty behavior from the rep because the rep is just not focused on the customer journey.

销售代表只关注完成交易然后抽身离开。

The rep is focused on getting a deal done and walking away.

你肯定不希望这样，因为这样会导致交易超售。

You do not want that because then you can get overbooked deals.

比如我进入一个客户账户，假设你们是按使用量计费的模式。

So I can go into an account and think, well, let's just say you're a consumption model.

我认为这些人可能在未来12个月需要消耗5万美元的额度，但我的薪酬是基于签约金额的，对吧？

I think that these guys probably need to consume $50,000 in credits over the next twelve But I'm paid off of bookings, right?

不是基于实际使用量。

Not consumption.

我的薪酬是基于签约金额的。

I'm paid off of bookings.

所以也许他们实际只会消耗50，但我觉得我能让他们承诺100。

So maybe they're only gonna consume 50, but I think I can get them to commit to 100.

不能怪销售员。

Can't fault the sales guy.

他想拿到佣金。

He wants to get paid.

所以他要去签一笔10万块的交易。

So he's gonna go book 100,000 deal.

然后一年后你会因为签了这10万块而陷入大麻烦。

And then a year from now you're in deep shit because you booked a 100,000.

他们已经消耗了5万，现在账户有风险，你会面临客户流失的问题。

They've they've consumed 50 and now the accounts at risk, you're going to have churn problems.

你肯定没有在扩展业务。

You're certainly not expanding.

所以必须让销售代表改掉这种行为，让他们明白：听着，你已经完成了初步交易。

And so that behavior has got to be worked out of the rep so that the rep understands, look, you've done the land deal.

这对你来说只是旅程的开始。

That's the beginning of the journey for you.

你最大的回报在于扩展交易和后续的进一步扩展，对吧？

The big payoff for you is on the expand deal and the further expansions, right?

首先最重要的是，你需要让销售代表考虑整个客户旅程，而不仅仅是签单后就走人，这与传统软件销售模式截然不同。

So first and foremost, you need to get the sales rep thinking about the entire customer journey, not just booking a deal and walking away, which is very different than how software sales has been historically.

对。

Right.

以前卖许可证时，你进来做完交易就走人。

When you were selling license deals, you walked in, did the deal and walked away.

现在完全不同了。

It's completely different now.

完全不一样了。

Completely is different.

我们之前提到过克里斯和Snowflake，他们与CS意见不合。

We mentioned there about kind of Chris, Snowflake, they're not agreeing with CS.

我之所以感兴趣，是因为之前和克里斯交谈时，他说你实际上是Snowflake前五年整个销售团队招聘的核心人物。

I'm just interested because when I spoke to Chris beforehand, he said that you were essentially core to hiring really the entire sales team for the first five years at Snowflake.

我想深入探讨这一点，因为你之前提到过你们的发展速度。

I just wanna dive into that because you mentioned before about the velocity that you had.

在初期见效的策略中，你最大的经验教训是什么？

What are some of your biggest lessons on what worked first?

首先，我们讨论过要敢于面对冲突。

So first of all, we talked about being willing to have conflict.

冲突必然存在，因为每位经理对人才画像和流程都有自己的见解。

There's going to be conflict because each manager is going to have his or her own ideas about the profile and about the process.

对吧？

Right?

但他们不能随心所欲。

Well, they don't get to have that.

如果你想快速大规模打造世界级的销售体系，就必须像精密的机器般运作。

If you're going to go hire a world, build a world class sales machine at scale and quickly, it has to be a well oiled machine.

这意味着我们要有标准化流程。

And what that means is we have a process.

绝不能偏离这个流程。

We don't deviate from that process.

我举个具体例子。

So I'll give you an example.

销售代表

Sales rep.

销售代表要经历大约四轮面试

Sales rep has, call it four interviews.

有时候你会遇到这种情况：好吧，先生

So sometimes you'll get, Okay, Mr.

招聘经理，你来面试这位代表

Hiring Manager, you interview the rep.

非此即彼

Binary.

你要么想雇佣他，要么不想

You either want to hire him or you don't.

经常是，嗯，我不确定

Oftentimes, well, I'm not sure.

所以我打算让他去和我的三位同事谈谈

So I'm going to have him go talk to three of my peers.

不行

Nope.

如果你无法决定是否要雇佣一个代表，假设你只安排两轮面试

If you can't make a decision on whether or not you want to hire a rep, let's just say you get two interviews.

第一轮考察销售能力，第二轮评估资质

First one's for selling, second one's for qualifying.

如果你在和某人相处两小时后还无法决定是否雇佣，那问题出在你身上，而不是候选人

If you can't make a decision on whether or not to hire somebody after two hours with them, you're the problem, not the candidate.

是你。

It's you.

这是二元的。

It's binary.

然后他进入流程的下一步。

Then he goes to the next step of the process.

二元推进与否。

Binary moving forward or not.

下一步二元推进与否。

Next step binary moving forward or not.

首先且最重要的是，你不能偏离那个流程。

And you do not deviate from that process first and foremost.

经常会有招聘经理说，嘿，我真的很喜欢这个人。

So oftentimes you'll have a hiring manager say, Hey, I really I like this guy.

我想带个销售工程师来听听他的意见。

I want to bring in a sales engineer to get his opinion.

不行。

Nope.

好吧，他将要和销售工程师一起工作。

Well, he's going to be working with the sales engineer.

我不在乎。

I don't care.

如果你想参与我的面试流程，你要么具备独特的资格认证能力，要么具备独特的销售能力。

If you're going to be in my interview process, you are either uniquely qualified to qualify or you are uniquely qualified to sell.

如果你不属于那两种情况，你就无法进入面试环节。

If you are not one of those two things, you are not getting into the interview process.

所以你会看到公司遍地都是。

So you'll see companies everywhere.

他们就像是在说，我们需要HR的人，而我招了个工程师。

They're like, we want the person from HR, I got this engineer.

那些人懂什么招聘销售人员？

What do those people know about hiring salespeople?

不同的人难道不应该用不同的标准来评估不同技能吗？

Are different people not qualified differently to qualify different skills?

工程师怎么懂得评估销售人员？

What's an engineer know about qualifying a salesperson?

你们最终会归结到企业文化上。

What you're going go to is culture.

嗯，我们想看看是否符合企业文化。

Well, we want to see if it's a culture fit.

不。

Nope.

因为你面临的问题是：

Cause here's the problem you have.

好吧。

Okay.

首先，你让工程师参与进来，只会拖慢流程。

So you bring the engineer in number one, slows the process down.

好的。

Okay.

第二点，存在风险。

Number two, there's risk.

我不知道这位工程师会对我们正在招聘的销售员说什么。

I don't know what this engineer is going to say to the sales guy we're recruiting.

他可能会说出一些关于产品的不该说的话，把销售代表吓得够呛。

He could say something about the product that he shouldn't say it scares the shit out of the rep.

好的。

Okay.

所以这里存在风险。

So there's risk there.

第三点，假设这位工程师，销售代表候选人与四位经理进行了面试。

Three, say the engineer, the rep candidate interviews with four managers.

他们都想录用他。

They all want to hire them.

工程师却说，我不想录用他。

The engineer is like, I do not want to hire them.

现在你打算怎么办？

Now what are you going to do?

你他妈还是要录用他，但你已经惹恼了你的工程师。

You're fucking hiring them is what you're doing, but you've just pissed your engineer off.

嗯，我认为你不应该录用他。

Well, I don't think you should hire them.

我们无论如何都要雇佣他们。

We're going to hire them anyway.

我不同意他们的观点。

Well, I don't agree with them.

现在组织内部出现了摩擦。

Now you got friction in the organization.

还是说，你们四位销售主管认可他们，但这位工程师比我们四位销售主管更懂如何招聘销售人员？

Or are you going to say, okay, well, us four sales leaders like them, but this one engineer knows better than us four sales leaders about hiring a salesperson.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

你刚才提到了速度。

You mentioned speed there.

你赞同快速招聘、快速解雇的做法吗？

Do you agree with hire fast, fire fast?

速度有多重要？

And how important is speed?

100%重要。

100%.

必须快速招聘。

You have to hire fast.

要实现规模化扩张，就必须快速招聘。

If you're going to go scale, you have to hire fast.

但关键在于理解岗位需求，前期要有人把关——早期这个人就是我。

But the key is understanding the profile, having somebody on the front end, which in my earlier days was me.

这就是我们的用人标准。

And this is the profile.

我不会偏离这个标准。

I'm not deviating from it.

回到我之前说的冲突问题。

Back to the conflict thing I said.

假设你新聘了一位东方区副总裁，他有自己的背景，还想带五个人过来——这本来是好事，因为我们确实需要招人。

So let's just say you hire a new VP of the East and he has his background and he's got five people he wants to bring with him, which is a good thing because we need to hire.

但这五个人都不符合我的用人标准。

But he has these five people and they don't meet my profile.

如果前期没有我这样的人支持克里斯，充当他的耳目——现在克里斯管理着400人的团队，不可能亲自面试每个候选人。

If I'm not on the front end or somebody like me isn't on the front end to support Chris and be Chris's eyes and ears, then this VP, because Chris is now running a 400 person organization, he's not interviewing every candidate.

他根本没有这个精力。

He doesn't have the cycles to.

结果这位副总裁就会招进来五个不符合标准的销售代表。

This VP is going to go hire five reps that we know don't match our profile.

那么，谁更清楚什么样的标准才适用呢？

Now, who knows more about which profile works?

是我们刚聘的、从未卖过产品的副总裁，还是我和克里斯——我们一手搭建了整个销售团队？

A VP that we've just hired that's never sold a product, doesn't know anything about it, or Chris and I who have built the entire sales organization.

显然我和克里斯比这位新人更懂用人标准，但他却想塞进五个不达标的老伙计。

Well, would argue Chris and I know the profile better than this person, but this person wants to bring in his five buddies that don't match the profile.

抱歉，新来的副总裁先生，这事没门。

I'm sorry, mister new VP, not happening.

我已经进行过很多次这样的对话，但克里斯给了我力量

And I've had many of these conversations, but Chris empowered

个人资料会因地理位置、客户类型或ACV规模而有所不同吗？

Does profile vary depending on geography, client type, ACV size?

当然。

Sure.

稍微有点。

Slightly.

但我的意思是，你寻找的核心要素始终不变。

But, I mean, there's just still the core things you're looking for.

对吧？

Right?

所以想想看，我雇你来是做什么工作的？

So think about what's the job I'm hiring you to do?

好的。

Okay.

嗯，销售软件。

Well, sell software.

好的。

Okay.

实际情况比这更微妙。

It's more nuanced than that.

不是要针对甲骨文，但我就是要拿甲骨文举例。

So not to pick on Oracle, but I'm going to pick on Oracle.

现在有个销售代表在甲骨文公司。

A rep's at Oracle right now.

他在推销软件，对吧？

He's selling software, right?

他正在推销软件。

He's selling software.

这就是他要说的话。

That's what he's going to say.

而我会说：好吧，你们在做渠道开发吗？

And I'm going say, Okay, are you doing pipeline generation?

没错，我正在向所有从未采购过X产品的甲骨文客户推销我们的新产品X。

Yeah, I'm selling our new X product into all these Oracle accounts that have never brought X product.

我在开拓新客户。

I'm hunting for new logos.

不，你不是。

No, you're not.

你只是去现有客户那里推销产品，很可能就是说服他们续费升级，说什么'只要你买这个产品，我就给你现有许可证打个骨折价'。现在把这个情况和你要去Snowflake工作对比下，人家可是年合同额千万美元的公司。

You're going into install base accounts selling a product into them, probably just convincing them to do a wrap and roll saying, hey, if you buy this product, I'll discount the shit out of your existing license to buy this product from Now take that versus you're going go work for Snowflake, 10,000,000 ACV company.

没人在乎什么云数据仓库。

Nobody gives a shit about a cloud data warehouse.

根本没人听说过Snowflake。

Nobody's ever heard of Snowflake.

我会让那个销售接手25个客户，要求他说服这些客户把所有数据从本地迁移到一个叫Snowflake的陌生公司。

And I'm going to take that rep and give him 25 accounts and say, go convince those accounts to move all of their data from on prem to a company called Snowflake they've never heard of.

这是两种截然不同的工作。

Those are two very different jobs.

客户经理应该负责需求生成吗？

Should AEs be responsible for demand gen?

他们应该得到一些支持。

They should get some support.

这是个灰色地带。

It's a gray area.

明白吗？

Okay?

他们应该得到一些支持。

They should get some support.

但如果我听到有销售代表说，为什么你没完成指标？

But if I ever hear that a rep says, why aren't you hitting your number?

为什么我没拿到任何潜在客户？

Why I'm not getting any leads?

你就别想成功了。

You ain't gonna make it.

所以，是的，他们最终要对自己的潜在客户生成负责，但他们应该得到些支持

So, yes, they are ultimately responsible for their own lead generation, but they should be something

你多快能意识到自己犯了个大错？

How quickly do you know when you've made a miss high?

我是说，不久前就有人说过，看，我们雇了个销售代表。

I mean, like, had somebody not long ago say, look, we hired a rep.

已经三周了。

It's been three weeks.

我当时就想，好吧，听着，如果你要在三周后就做决定，那必须存在人力资源问题或药物滥用问题。

And I'm like, okay, look, if you're gonna make a decision after three weeks, there needs to be an HR issue, substance abuse issue.

这个人根本没来上班。

The person is not showing up for work.

要这么快解雇人，问题必须非常明显。

It's got to be super obvious to fire that quickly.

如果你开始看到一些迹象，嘿，听着，你可是对这个人做过承诺的。

If you're starting to see signs, well, hey, look, you committed to the person.

这是你招的人。

It's your hire.

让他们成功是你的责任。

It's your job to make them successful.

所以如果你看到令人担忧的迹象，就去解决它们。

So if you're seeing worrying signs, fix them.

所以我不想给你一个时间线，对吧？

So I don't want to give you a timeline, right?

但当你走到这一步——好吧，是时候换人了——那是因为你已经竭尽所能让这个人成功，但他们还是达不到要求。

But when you get to the point of, okay, it's time to change this personnel, it's because you've done everything you know you can do to make the person successful and they're still not getting there.

你可以看看客户名单，因为有时候你会把优秀的销售分到糟糕的客户那里。

And you can look at the account list because there are times when you hire good reps into shitty accounts.

所以你还必须诚实地问自己：这是区域问题还是个人问题？

So you also have to be honest and say, okay, is this just the patch or is this the individual?

一个好的经理应该懂这些，对吧？

And a good manager knows this stuff, right?

所以这时候你会说，我已经竭尽所能让这位销售代表成功了。

So it's the point in time where you say, I've done everything I can do to make this rep successful.

不存在任何外部因素会导致他或她的失败。

There's no extraneous circumstances, which would be causing him or her to fail.

是时候采取行动了。

It's time to make the move.

另一种情况是你手下有个原本表现很好的销售代表，现在却表现不佳。

The other option is you have a rep that's been doing well, and now they're not doing well.

有时候，特别是在初创公司，做销售代表真的很煎熬。

Sometimes it gets, especially at startups, it's a grind being a rep at a startup.

你可能会失去继续做下去的意志，明白吗？

You may just lose the will to do it, you know?

所以在第三年，你会开始看到行为上的变化。

And so at three years, what happens is you start to see behavioral changes.

销售代表开始缺席各种会议。

Reps not showing up in every call.

我正在查看销售管道。

I'm looking at the pipeline.

他的销售管道很单薄。

His pipeline is light.

我正在统计他新业务会议的数量。

I'm measuring his number of new business meetings.

那些开始下降了。

Those are starting to drop off.

对吧？

Right?

所以我正在查看数据，发现这里有些情况。

So I'm looking at the data saying something is happening here.

发生了什么？

What's happening?

然后你得深入挖掘。

And then you gotta dig in.

为什么一个原本表现优秀的销售代表会变成表现不佳的代表？最主要的原因是什么？

What is the biggest reason why a previously well performing rep turns into a nonperforming rep?

有很多因素，但其中一些只是因为他们感到疲惫。

There's a lot of factors, but, some of it is just what they get tired.

不久前我和我们的一位CEO有过这场辩论，他说，听着，我希望我的销售代表们。

I had this debate with one of our CEOs not long ago, and he said, Look, I want my reps.

销售代表应该热爱他们的工作。

Sales reps should love their jobs.

他们应该享受日常工作。

They should enjoy their day jobs.

而我说，我不喜欢。

And I said, I don't.

那是不可能的。

That's not possible.

他们可以热爱为我们工作，而且他们应该热爱。

They can love working for us and they should.

他们应该热爱他们的CRO。

They should love their CRO.

我尊重我的CRO。

I respect my CRO.

我的CRO对我有投入。

My CRO is invested in me.

他正在培养我。

He's developing me.

我在赢，对吧？

I'm winning, right?

大事。

Big thing.

我在赢。

I'm winning.