20销售额：从0到37亿美元——Databricks首席营收官打造SaaS史上最快市场拓展引擎的秘籍 | Databricks如何击败Snowflake | 如何与Ron Gabrisko共同构建5000人销售团队并完成1.9亿美元大单

您正在收听由我——哈里·斯特宾斯主持的《20大销售》。今天，我们节目请来了销售界的绝对独角兽——Databricks的首席营收官罗恩·加布里斯科，他于2016年2月加入公司。令人惊叹的是，在他的领导下，Databricks的年经常性收入从零增长至超过40亿美元。

You are listening to 20 sales with me, Harry Stebbings. Now today, we have an absolute unicorn from the sales world on the show. We have Ron Gabrisco, CRO at Databricks, which he joined in 02/2016. And check this out. Under his leadership, Databricks has scaled from zero to over $4,000,000,000 in ARR.

他将销售团队从零扩展到全球超千人规模，成功开拓企业、政府和国际市场。我从未见过任何其他首席营收官或销售领导者能如此从零起步，带队实现40亿美元的增长。太不可思议了。这是我们做过最精彩的20大销售节目之一。但在进入正题前，请问您的财务团队是否还困在政策执行中沦为成本中心？被繁琐流程拖累？深陷操作性的忙碌工作？

He's grown the sales team from zero to over a thousand globally, leading expansion into the enterprise, government, and international markets. I do not know any other CRO or sales leader that has gone from 0 to $4,000,000,000 leading the charge. Incredible. And this is one of the best 20 sales shows we've ever done. But before we dive into the show today, is your finance team a cost center tied up in enforcing policies, bogged down by cumbersome processes, and drowning in operational busy work?

如果能让财务真正无缝支持业务增长呢？这正是全球领先增长型企业选择Payhawk的原因——这个财务协同平台整合全球支出管理，通过对话式AI为所有涉及公司支出的角色提供最佳体验。使用Payhawk的财务团队实现了从操作性工作向战略性工作的重大转型。为每个财务角色配备的AI助手能像专业团队般处理繁琐工作，同时为员工提供卓越体验——就像拥有一个24/7工作的专家助理团队。

Well, what if you could unlock seamless strategic finance that actually fuels your business growth? This is why leading global growth companies use Payhawk, the finance orchestration platform that unifies global spend management with conversational AI to deliver best user experience for everybody dealing with company spending. Finance teams using Payhawk report a major shift from operational to strategic work. New AI agents for each finance role handle the busy work acting with the same governance as your finance team. Like having a small team of expert assistants that work 20 fourseven but also providing an exceptional user experience to your employees.

Payhawk专为全球化运营的成长型企业设计。无需六个月实施周期，不依赖咨询顾问，即刻实现随业务扩展的财务转型。Vinted、Wallbox等领先企业及全球32国数百家公司正通过Payhawk推动财务创新。想将财务流程转化为竞争优势？现通过20VC播客从合格费用管理/公司卡服务商转用Payhawk，可享30%震撼折扣。

Payhawk is built for growth and enterprise businesses that operate globally. No six month implementations, no consultant dependencies, just immediate finance transformation that scales with your business. Leading growth companies like Vinted, Wallbox, and hundreds more across 32 countries use Payhawk to move finance forward, not just keep up. Ready to turn your finance processes into a competitive advantage? Payhawk is offering a staggering 30% discount to everybody switching from a qualifying expense management or company card provider who mentioned the 20 VC podcast.

立即访问payhawk.com/switch了解详情。说到Payhawk这样的变革性产品——没有Attention，任何销售团队都难称顶尖。Attention创建的AI代理能学习您的最佳销售对话，记录会议/邮件/通话/CRM等全渠道触点，通过数据自动化跟进、CRM更新、教练评分等机械工作，解放销售团队的创造力。

Visit payhawk.com forward slash switch to learn more and make the intelligent switch today. And speaking of game changing products like Payhawk there, no sales team can be the best without attention. Attention creates AI agents that learn from your best sales conversations. So they record your sales touch points across a ton of different areas like meetings, emails, calls, CRMs, and more. They then use these AI agents and learn from that data to automate busy work like follow ups, next steps, CRM updates, coaching scorecards, bluntly, all the manual shit that your sales team has to do but takes away from their creativity and closing deals.

别再因流程丢失本可赢得的交易，立即用attention.com实现自动化——顶尖销售团队都在使用。说到杰出公司，不得不提初创企业终极金融解决方案Brex。

So stop losing win winnable deals to process and start automating. Take the grunt away from your sales team. Use attention.com. The best sales teams all are. And speaking of incredible companies, let's talk about Brex, the ultimate financial stack for startups.

Brex创立之初就志在解决创始人日常面临的棘手难题。坦白说，白手起家已属不易，若还要应付收费繁杂、让资金闲置的传统银行，更是雪上加霜。Brex不同——这套金融系统能伴随企业全周期成长。

So when Brex was founded, it wasn't just about creating another financial product. It was about solving the really gritty challenges that founders face daily. Let's be honest, building something from the ground up is hard enough without dealing with clunky, outdated banks that pile on fees and leave your cash idle. Brex is different. It's the financial stack that scales with you no matter where you are in your journey.

从公司卡到延长现金流生命周期，再到资金增值，Brex专为创始人设计，让每分钱发挥最大价值。最令我惊叹的是：Brex将最佳支票账户、国库管理和FDIC保险融为一体，支持全球实时资金流转，首日即可享收益，资金随时可取。

From corporate cards to maximizing your runway to earning yield on your cash. Brex was designed with founders in mind to make every dollar go further so you can focus on building. And here's what really stands out to me. Brex combines the best of checking, treasury, and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account. You can send and receive money globally at lightning speed, earn yield from day one, and still access your funds whenever you need.

通过合作银行提供20倍标准保障，Brex让资金既高效增值又安全无忧。难怪美国三分之一获风投的初创企业——包括Anthropic、Coinbase、Robinhood等顶尖公司——都选择Brex助力成长。立即访问brex.com/startups加入全球最聪明初创行列。

Plus, with 20 x the standard protection through program banks, your cash is not just working harder, it's working safer too. It's no surprise that one in three venture backed startups in The US with companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and Robinhood. I mean, my god, these companies are incredible. Trust Brex to help them grow. If you wanna join the smartest startups on the planet, head over to brex.com/startups and see what they can do for you.

您已到达目的地。

You have now arrived at your destination.

Ron，我对此超级兴奋，兄弟。我听过太多关于它的好评了。非常感谢你今天能来参加。

Ron, I am so excited for this, dude. I have heard so many great things. So thank you so much for joining me today.

是啊，能来这里我也很兴奋。谢谢邀请我。

Yeah. Excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

我得从头问起。你刚才提到Ben Horace是如何把你引进Databricks的。给我讲讲那个故事吧，Ben是怎么把你带进Databricks的？

I've gotta start. You just mentioned before this how Ben Horace brought you into Databricks. Yeah. Take me to that story. How did Ben bring you into Databricks?

好的。我是通过VC圈的人脉认识Ben的，那时候大概是2015年底。我当时在看Mongo或Square这类公司，而他说'这家叫Databricks的公司虽然比你关注的任何企业都早期，但在我整个投资组合里潜力最大。有七个伯克利计算机博士组成的超强团队，就是一帮伯克利嬉皮士想改变世界，所以他们免费开放软件，现在需要有人帮他们建立商业模式。'后来我见了创始人团队，Ali他们简直太出色了。

Yeah. So I met Ben through VC networking, and and at the time, was, like, kinda late two thousand fifteen. So I was like looking at Mongo or Square or some of those companies and he was like, Yeah, this company called Databricks, it's way earlier stage than anything you're looking at but it's got the most upside of any company in my whole portfolio. There's seven PhD super smart Berkeley computer guys and, they're just a bunch of Berkeley hippies and wanted to, you know, change the world, so they gave away their software for free and I need somebody to help them build a business. So, I met the founders, they were just absolutely amazing, Ali and the whole crew.

当时见Ali是什么感觉？我做这档节目时有个困扰——如今见到Ali会觉得他是市值数百亿公司的卓越领袖，然后反推回种子期创始人时期，总觉得'你们比不上现在的Ali'，却忘了Ali也是成长起来的。那时的Ali是什么样的？

What was that like meeting Ali? Because I think I have a challenge doing this show where I meet Ali today, and I'm like, amazing leader of multibillion dollar company, and then I retrofit on seed founders. And I'm like, well, you're not as good as Ali. And I forget the slope that Ali's been on. What was Ali like then?

首先

First of

Ali是十亿里挑一的天才。这是我合作的第三个技术型创始人，他比其他人都强100倍——既能搞技术，又是精神领袖，还懂商业。我刚加入时，公司正过渡让他接任CEO，当时他其实是工程副总裁，却亲自来招募我。

all, Ali's like one in a billion, you know. This is kind of my third founder, technical founder. He's a 100 x better than any of them because he can do the technical stuff, but he's also an inspirational leader and he he knows the business. Back then, he was like, when I joined the company, they were kinda transitioning to him as the CEO. He was actually the VP of engineering, and I was like, he was like recruiting me.

我当时觉得这挺特别的。但他刚接任CEO就说'教我销售，我想学销售'。

I'm like, that's kinda, you know, different. Right? But no. The first thing when he took over as CEO, he was like, teach me sales. Like, I wanna learn sales.

于是我们会坐下来讨论组织架构、MEDDPIC方法论，还有企业决策流程这些

So, you know, we would sit down and talk about org charts and MEDDPIC and how organizations make decisions and

能具体说说吗？你和Al Etienne坐下来教他销售。你都教了他什么？

Can you take me to that? So you sit down with Al Etienne to teach him sales. Yeah. What did you teach him?

不，我意思是，企业销售更像是一个体系。很多人觉得它是个黑箱，但其实不是。这是一门科学，尤其是面对复杂组织时。

No. I mean, again, like enterprise sales is kind of a system. Like a lot of people think it's a black box, but it's not. It's it's a science. Especially complex organizations.

向企业销售时，决策通常不是由一个人做出，而是委员会决定的，对吧？所以你需要懂得如何在组织中周旋，识别决策者和影响者这类角色。我们讨论过如何建立销售手册、招聘哪种销售代表——阿里可是十倍聪明的人，所有创始人的思维方式都与众不同。

When you're selling to enterprises, decisions are made not by one person usually, they're made by committees, right? So you gotta kinda know how to navigate organization, who are decision makers, who are influencers, things of that nature. You know, we talked about like med picks, some of the how do you build a playbook, what kind of reps do you hire. I mean, Ali's 10x smart, right? Like these all the founders are, like their brains work in a different way.

所以他全盘吸收了。现在他已经是专家了。我们开会时，他能精准把握要点，现在是个了不起的销售人才。

So he gobbled it up. Now he's like an expert. Like, he'll we'll sit down. He knows exactly. Like, he's amazing salesperson now.

我很欣赏你描述的引擎特性和科学性。但你加入时营收几乎是零对吧？

So I love this in terms of the engine like characteristics, the science of it. But when you joined, it was zero, like, in revenue. No?

对，不到一百万。

Yeah. Less than a million.

好的，不到一百万。那当时算是门艺术吗？你是如何构思Databricks第一版销售手册的？

Okay. Less than a million. Yeah. Is it an art then? And how did you think about building the first playbook for Databricks?

最初我们并没有固定的销售手册或收入模型，我们正在创造这些。这正是加入Databricks让我兴奋的原因——我能参与构建销售体系和企业文化。我做的第一件事就是组建我信任的销售团队，直接去验证客户愿意为什么买单。

First, like, we didn't really have a set playbook or revenue model. Right? Like, were creating that. That was one of the things that really was exciting to me coming into Databricks was, hey, I get to help build the playbook, build the culture, all those kind of things. And honestly, first thing I did was like, hey, let's build out a team of people that I know, know how to sell and let's just go find out what customers will buy.

所以从百万到千万营收这个产品市场匹配阶段，我们做了大量工作：虽然Spark用户都是免费的，但我们主动接触他们，挖掘付费点。

So a lot of that first kind of stage of a company called product market fit from a million to 10,000,000 is you know, we had all these Spark users, they're free, but let's just go talk to them and find out what would you pay for.

我想回到销售手册这个话题。现在流行说法是应该由创始人先建立销售手册，再引进销售负责人来执行。

I just wanna go back. You said about the playbook there and figuring it out. Founders are told today, the founder needs to be the one to create the playbook and then you bring in the CRO head of sales to run the playbook for you.

没错。

Yeah.

你不同意吗？

Do you disagree with

那得看情况。对吧？比如，我认为创始人主导的销售非常重要。没有人能比创始人更好地推销公司的愿景和激情。

that? Kinda depends. Right? Like, I think founder led sales is really important. No one can sell the vision and the passion of the company better than the founders.

比如，阿里在这方面做得非常好。我给你讲个故事，早期的时候，大概是我加入后的三十到六十天，我当时想，如果我们想在这里做大生意，就必须销售金融服务。于是我安排了华尔街的10场CIO会议，带着阿里、马特杰和阿尔萨兰去见这些人。我们去了摩根大通。

Like, Ali was really good at that. I'll tell you a story, like early days, like I was, I don't know, thirty, sixty days in and, I was like, hey, if we're gonna have a big business here, we gotta sell the financial services. And so I set up like 10 CIO meetings in Wall Street. You know, I brought Ali, Mate, Arsalan, I'm gonna go meet all these folks. And we went and met, JPMorgan Chase.

那是在2016年初。我们当时在和风险管理团队开会。首先，我很快就安排了所有这些会议，心里还在想，这是怎么回事？为什么？因为我们是Spark的创造者。

This is back in like early two thousand sixteen. And, you know, we were, meeting with like the risk management. And first of all, we show up, I get all these meetings, like, immediately and I'm like, what's going on? And I'm like, why? The creators of Spark.

我们到场时，大概有100人，他们只想和马特杰拍照。这很搞笑。但不管怎样，他们说愿意给我们1000万美元来部署这个。当时我们的全年目标还不到100万，他们想让我们做本地部署。阿里直接拒绝了，说我们绝不碰本地部署。

We show up and there'd be like a 100 people and they just wanna take pictures with Matej. So it's hilarious. But anyway, they're like, we'll give you $10,000,000 to put this. And at the time, we're less than a million, like our whole first year targets like 10,000,000 to put it on prem. And Ali was like, no way, we're not doing anything on prem.

他恨不得马上结束会议。因为他的愿景和创始人的愿景完全围绕云、开源、数据和AI，现在回想起来，这种对市场走向的洞察力令人惊叹。总之我们放弃了。摩根大通当时还说他们永远不会上云。

He couldn't get out of the meeting fast enough. Right? Because his vision and the founder's vision was all around cloud, open source, and data and AI, which in retrospect was amazing insight on where the market was going. Anyway, so we just passed on it. And JPMorgan was like, we'll never be in the cloud.

显然，现在他们是我们最大的客户之一，全面拥抱云计算。杰米·戴蒙还在数据与AI峰会上发言。但话说回来，这种产品市场匹配度，我认为建立这种销售模式很重要。如果创业公司能找到合适的销售人员来帮忙，就应该去做。

And, obviously, now they're like one of our biggest customers. So, they're massively in the cloud. We have Jamie Dimon talking at Data and AI Summit. But again, like that product market fit, I think building that playbook. If you can find the right salesperson as a startup, you know, to help you do that, you should.

但我还是相信创始人主导的销售，你必须亲自见客户，了解他们的需求，知道如何开发产品。这种产品需求反馈循环和对客户价值的理解极其重要。

But again, I I believe in founder led sales, you gotta go meet with customers, you gotta understand what their needs are, how to develop the product. That product feedback loop of requirements and and what's valuable to customers is is incredibly important.

假设我们现在营收在50万到200万之间，准备招聘销售人员。在这个阶段你喜欢招什么类型的销售？对于在听的创始人，你建议他们招聘吗？是找有经验的高级销售主管？

So we're at, like, I don't know, 500 to 2,000,000 in revenue, say. And we're gonna hire that salesperson. What type of salesperson do you like to hire in that stage? And for founders listening, do you recommend they hire? Is it the senior head of sales who's been there, done it?

还是初级销售人员？我们该招谁？

Is it the juniors? Who should we hire?

我是说，如果你只是招聘销售人员，那就找个聪明、求知欲强、你信任的人，你知道的，他们会拼命工作。在技术领域，你需要有技术型销售人员，对吧？再说一次，我常说销售人员是教育者而非推销员。他们教会客户如何从技术中获取价值，对吧？如果你想找资深、真正资深的人，他们会想招一大批人。

I mean, if you're just hiring salespeople, find somebody who's smart, intellectually curious, that you trust, you know, is gonna work their tail off. In the technical field, you gotta have technical salespeople, right? Again, I always say salespeople teach, they don't sell. They teach customers how to get value out of their technology, right? If you try to go for the senior, really senior folk, they're gonna wanna hire a bunch of people.

所以你得确保有足够的资金支持。否则，就找个优秀的一线经理，你信任的人，多花时间培养他们。因为销售人员擅长销售，所以他们也很擅长面试。你必须清楚自己招的是什么人。多做背景调查，诸如此类的事情。

So you gotta make sure you got a bunch of funding to be able to do that. Otherwise, get like a great first line manager, somebody you trust, spend a lot of time with them. Because again, salespeople are good at selling, so they're really good at interviewing. You gotta know what you're getting. Do a lot of back channels, all that kind of stuff.

但要找个愿意亲力亲为的人。

But get somebody that gets their hands dirty.

让我们回到那个时刻。那是个惊人的节点。当时你们年收入50万左右，你加入后开始与Databricks的销售流程。从1到1000万的过程中，你从Databricks学到的最重要经验是什么？

Take me back to that. It's an amazing moment. You're at 500 k, whatever it is, and you join, and you start the sales process with Databricks. What were your biggest lessons from that one to 10,000,000 process with Databricks?

尽可能多地和客户交流。比如，我们当时接触了数百家客户。其次，我在前六个月大概招聘了40人，其中有些是我人脉里最优秀的销售。我的工作就是安排会议，了解人们愿意为什么买单，同时打响品牌。你在教他们如何提问、如何与客户互动吗？是的。

Go talk to as many customers as you possibly can. Like, we went and talked to hundreds of customers. Second, I, you know, I hired probably 40 people the first six months, some of the best salespeople from my network, and I was literally just go set up meetings and find out what what people will pay for and get the brand out there. Are you teaching them the questions to ask, how to engage with customers? Yeah.

我们正在学习需求挖掘。最终当你建立销售手册时，你需要知道：随着规模扩大，需求挖掘指南该是什么样？该问哪些问题？如何定位我们的解决方案？如何突出其价值和差异化优势？

We're learning the discovery. You know, eventually when you build the playbook, you wanna know, okay, as you start to scale, what's the discovery guide look like? What questions do I wanna ask? How do I position our solution? How do I position the value of it, the differentiators?

但核心在于提问。就像我面试Databricks时，他们说'这是我们的推介材料，给我们做个演示'。而我回答'好的'。

But it's all about asking questions. Like, even when I when I interviewed for Databricks, they're like, hey, here's our pitch. Give us the pitch. Right? And I was like, okay.

我看完材料发现全是技术术语。我说'你们很少谈价值，而我更关注价值实现时间、创新等要素'。他们要求'给我们演示'，我就问'你们是什么类型的公司？'最后他们同意了我的方式。

So I looked at it and it was like a lot of technical stuff, you know. I was like, well, you don't talk a lot about value, I talk more about time to value, innovation, all that kind of stuff. Like, pitch us. And I said, what kind of company are you? And they said, okay, let's let's do that.

我接着问'你们在数据方面面临哪些挑战？未来业务规划是什么？'他们反问'你不是要演示吗？'我说'正在演示啊'。关键是通过提问找到我们能提供价值的地方。

I was like, okay, what are some of your challenges with data? Okay, you know, what are you trying to do in the future for your business? They're like, are you gonna pitch us? And I'm like, I am. You know, it's all about asking questions and trying to find where, you know, we can add value.

然后你把这些转化为可复制的流程并培训所有人。明确当时的目标客户画像——比如分析部门副总裁。我们每周三举办潜在客户开发日专门约会议，持续积累销售线索和活动量，这形成了文化。要让人知道：我无时无刻不在构建销售管道。

And so then you build that into a system of repeatable plays and teach everyone. Teach them exactly what's the profile we're going after at that time. Was like VP of analytics, you know, we run prospecting day every Wednesday just just to get meetings. We're trying to get meetings and activity and all those kind of things, which is kind of a cultural thing, right? You need to know, I'm building pipeline all the time.

然后这里展示了我们的价值和差异化优势，逐步建立起客户群。能带我去看看你们的潜在客户开发日吗？

And then here's our value and our differentiators, and you start to build up that customer base. Can you take me to prospecting day?

好啊。你们是怎么组织的？对，正在收听的创始人们该如何做好这件事？

Yeah. How do you structure it? Yeah. What are the lessons on how to do it well for founders listening?

真的就是带上整个销售团队。所有人，包括我自己。我也会加入，因为我们有很多年轻销售员。但每周三我们只做客户开发。因为如果你告诉销售员'每周花四到八小时开发客户'，他们根本不会做——这太痛苦了。

Literally, take the entire sales team. This is everyone, like, including me. Like, I jump into the pit because we have a lot of, you know, younger salespeople too. But every Wednesday, all we did was prospecting. Because if you tell a salesperson, hey, go prospect four to eight hours a week, just not gonna do it because it's painful.

这确实很难。但能学到很多。如果是团队协作并增添趣味性——我们在旧金山进行（公司创始地），早上我会准备早餐。大家讨论：'今天每个销售员要带着三到五家待研究的公司名单来，我要尝试接触这些公司'。他们会研究客户资料，然后确定推销话术。

It's like hard. But you learn so much and if you do it as a team and you make it interesting, we do it in San Francisco, you know, where the company was founded, I'd get breakfast in the morning. We talk about, okay, today, you know, you'd already have to show up with, okay, here are the three to five companies I'm gonna research for each salesperson. I'm gonna try to get into these companies. He'd research their profiles and then, okay, here's how we wanna pitch.

当时主打的是托管Spark服务。我们讲解差异化优势，培训推销技巧。然后分组打电话、发LinkedIn消息和邮件等等。午餐时复盘：'谁成功约到会议了？'接着分享经验。

At the time, it was like managed spark. So here are the differentiators and and we teach them how to pitch it. We go make phone calls, LinkedIn, emails, all that stuff. And you break for lunch, like, alright, who got meetings? And then you'd share.

集体学习能加速迭代——这正是小公司的秘密武器。相比大公司，我们能极速调整方向。比如有人说'我在LinkedIn用这个话术成功了'，就立即全员推广。这样很快就能摸清客户的兴趣点。

Because the collective learning, the faster you can iterate, that's your secret weapon as a small company is. I can iterate super fast and pivot super fast versus a bigger company, that's how things change. But anyway, we'd say, okay, and I got this profile on LinkedIn and I got them with this message and you teach that to everybody. Alright, everybody else starts trying. And so you start learning, okay, what are people interested in?

如何成功约到会议？诸如此类。坚持每周三训练就像健身增肌。季度末我们会搞奖励——可能是慈善捐款，或是送出牛仔帽、威士忌之类的。

How do I get meetings? All that kind of stuff. And eventually then, as you continue to scale that every Wednesday, it's just a muscle you're building. It's like going to the gym. And so I would have winter at the end, you know, we'd either do like a donation to their favorite charity or someone might get a cowboy hat today or a bottle of whiskey or something, you know what I mean?

关键要让过程有趣，促进团队协作。最终他们会自主开展，你只需量化考核。

So just make it fun and have the team work together and eventually, like, they'll start doing it on their own, you measure the activity.

那时候的客单价是多少？

What ACVs are you selling at that point?

1.8万到2万美元。我刚加入时规模很小。但第一个月就做了百万业绩——毕竟作为资深销售，我能快速切入。

18 to $20. Mean, I came grand. Yeah. When I came in, we're it was tiny. But the first, you know, say month I was there, we probably did a million bucks because, you know, as a more experienced salesperson, I could go in and say, okay.

你们是如何使用这项技术的？它对你们的价值有多大？我们发现一些客户时，我觉得，哦，那是个25万美元的机会。但当时所有的交易都是1.8万美元。我就想，不能再做比我的Uber账单还低的交易了。

How are you using the technology? What's it worth to you? We found some customers that I was like, oh, that's 250 k opportunity. But at the time, all the deals were 18 k. I was like, no more deals, less than my Uber bill.

哦，老兄。我喜欢你。

Oh, dude. I like you.

但好吧。但有很多创始人低估了自己的价值，他们没意识到自己在贱卖。百分之百是这样。根据你所掌握的知识，你会如何建议他们确保自己没有低估价值？

But okay. But there's a lot of founders who undersell, and they don't realize they're underselling. A thousand percent. How would you advise them to make sure that they're not underselling given the knowledge that you have?

早期我们花了很多时间讨论如何定价。实际上我认为Databricks做过最明智的事情之一就是基于使用量定价。所以你可以从小规模开始，但随着使用量增加，费用会变得很高。然后我们将其扩展到多个产品，诸如此类。但想想数据和AI，数据在增长，你要做的查询数量也在增长。

We spent a lot of time, early days, debating how to do pricing. I actually think it was one of the smartest things we did at Databricks was we priced based on consumption. So you could start super small, but as you start to consume more, it could get super big. And then we expand it to multiple products, all that kind of thing. But if you think about data and AI, data is growing, the number of queries you're gonna do grows.

所以采用基于使用量的模式非常聪明。我经常看到这个错误，比如人们会说，哦，我要按用户数定价。用户数是有上限的。你知道，如果经济下滑，用户可能会减少。

So having a consumption based model is super smart. I see this mistake a lot, like people will be like, oh, I'm gonna price on users. Users. There's a cap on users. You know, if the economy goes down, then there's maybe less users.

但如果你能基于价值本质定价，那么你就能在我们睡觉时实现增长。对吧？我认为Databricks定价模型的重要部分就是基于使用量。如果你使用并获得价值，那很好。如果没有，你就不用付钱。

But if you can price based on, you know, what's your essence of value, then you can scale while we're sleeping. Right? Which is a big important part of I think, how Databricks built its pricing model is it's based on consumption. If you use it and you get value out of it, great. If not, you don't pay anything.

早期你有没有发现这有助于销售，因为人们会说，哦，太好了。这消除了风险。

Did you find in the early days that helped you to sell because people were like, oh, great. Removes the risk.

是的。完全正确。所以我们会尝试。实际上，我们早期做的一个触发点是传统企业总是销售服务。我们开发了一个叫战略客户计划的东西，我们会说，嘿，如果你消费100美元，我们就给你免费资源。

Yeah. Exactly. So we'll try it out. And actually, the one trigger that we did early on was traditional enterprise, you're always selling your services. We developed a thing we called strategic customer program where we'd be like, hey, if you spend a $100, we'll give you free resource.

因为最大的问题是人才和专业知识之间存在差距。我们的产品很棒，但你需要知道如何使用它。所以我们会增加资源。什么是资源？一个人？

Because the biggest thing was like there was a gap in talent and expertise. Like our product was amazing but you had to know how to use it. And so we would add a resource. What's resource? A person?

是的。一个人。像一个聪明的技术人员，能够设置它，向你展示前几个用例，诸如此类的事情。然后一旦他们掌握了，他们就会说，哦，不。明白了。

Yeah. A person. Like a smart technical person to be able to set it up, show you the first couple use cases, all that kind of thing. And then once they got enabled, they're like, oh, no. Get it.

这挺酷的，对吧？你能做到什么程度？因为我觉得我们正处于

It's pretty cool. Right? At what level can you do that? Because I think we're in

那个阶段，很多AI工具让企业像兔子一样，我知道它有价值，我看得见，但不知道如何实施。而传统企业的整合过程实际上要困难得多。你能在FTEs（全职等效员工）、完全部署工程师的哪个阶段做到？是的。

that stage again with a lot of AI tools where bunny enterprises are like, I know it's valuable. I can see that, but I don't know how to implement it. And the integration process is actually much harder for traditional enterprises. At what stage can you do in FTEs, fully deployed engineers? Yeah.

这就像个热门词汇，多亏了Palantir。是的。你能以什么价格点做到这一点？

It's like like a hot word. Thanks to Palantir. Yeah. At what price point can you do that?

你知道，早期阶段，你只需要一些标志性客户。所以这取决于你的资金状况，但50或100，比如说100美元。好吧，每年给我100美元，我们就做这个试点。

You know, again, early days, you just need logos. So it depends on your funding situation, but 50 or a 100, say a $100. Okay. Give me a $100 a year. We'll do this pilot.

我会给你资源来做这件事。但重申一下，你是在争取那些大客户。因为现在企业市场非常FOMO（害怕错过）。你看到竞争对手在和这家公司合作，哦，我也得赶紧加入，快速行动以竞争。

I'll give you a resource to do it. But again, you're trying to get those big logos. Because now once I you know, the enterprise market's very much a FOMO. You see your competitors, they're doing this with this company. Oh, I better get on board, go fast to do that to compete.

所以早期争取那些大客户非常重要，你需要买通他们，投入资源让他们成功。

And so getting those big logos is so important early days, like, you need to buy them, and you need to put resources in them to make them successful.

你应该打折来争取他们吗？比如，你应该不惜一切代价争取这些客户吗？你如何建议初创公司获取大客户？

Should you discount to get them? Like, should you do anything to get those logos? How do you advise early stage companies on getting mega logos?

我是说，首先，企业销售和卖给数字原生代公司是不同的。你必须意识到，销售过程、销售对象、销售方式都不同。但老实说，企业市场更有钱可赚。对吧？因为数字原生代喜欢自己造轮子。

I mean, first of all, like, enterprise sales is different than selling to digital natives and those kind of companies. You have to realize, like, just the sales process is different, who you sell to, how you sell, all that. But honestly, there's more money in enterprises. Right? Because digital natives, they like building stuff.

他们会压价，对吧？企业需要专业知识，需要帮助。我不太赞成大幅打折，但如果你建立一个可扩展的定价模型，其基础单位基于你作为技术提供商的价值，无论那是什么，你可以缩小范围先进入。比如，总监有10万预算，那就找个愿意花这笔钱的内部支持者，提供资源。

They're gonna squeeze you for lower prices, right? Enterprises need expertise, they need help. You know, I don't know about just heavily discounting, but again, if you build a pricing model that scales, that its base unit is based on your value, whatever that is, as a tech provider, and you can scale it. So start with this one team or this one department, you can scale down the scope of it to get inside. Like, director has up to a 100 k, so, you know, find a champion that'll spend that amount of money, give the resources.

即使你只做

Even if you just do

一位飞行员，拿到那个标识。你提到18k的ACV，同一个月又有250k的ACV。那么你当时是同时在做中小企业和企业级业务吗？你如何思考是否需要专注于某一领域？

a pilot, get that logo. You mentioned 18 k ACVs, and then the same month, two fifty k ACVs. So were you doing, like, SMB and enterprise at the same time? How do you think about whether you need to be in one camp or the other?

我刚加入时，他们全都在向中小企业、数字原生代、硅谷类型的客户销售，这就像要说服别人花25美元，而我觉得这需要两名工程师的投入。我们早期就大胆押注企业级市场。这么做是因为，一来我认为那里有钱可赚，二来从长远看，企业业务才能让公司持续发展。纯粹依赖初创企业和数字原生代的业务能规模化的情况极少，它们的波动太大了。所以需要做这种投资，虽然回报周期更长，销售流程更久，但你能学到海量知识。

Early days when I got there, they were all in selling to SMB startups, digital natives, Silicon Valley type folks, which, again, like, we're, like, trying to convince someone to spend $25, and I'm like, it takes you two engineers. We made a big bet early on to invest in enterprise. And we did that early because, I mean, one, I thought that's where the money was, and two, long term sustainable for a company, you have to have an enterprise business. I think there's very few businesses that can just scale based on startups and digital natives, they go up, down, all over the place, right? So you need to make that investment, it's gonna take a little longer to pay off, the sales cycles are longer but you're gonna learn a ton too.

进入企业市场后，你会了解到各种新需求，比如安全规范、组织架构导航，甚至法律流程。

You're gonna learn about like, when we entered enterprise, again, you could learn all kinds of new requirements about security, how to navigate the organization, even your legal process.

所有创始人在进军企业市场前应该了解什么？

What should all founders know before they go into enterprise?

因为这是个重大决策。有几件事：首先这是有意识的长期投资，需要具备销售专长和经验。

Because it is a big decision. Couple things. One, it's a conscious investment. It's a longer term investment. So you need some kind of sales expertise, their experience, number one.

其次，他们会试图强加定制需求。安全事项至关重要——要成为主流技术供应商，必须精通安全治理。没有企业会使用缺乏安全保障的技术。

Number two, they're also gonna try to push their custom requirements on you. Right? So you have to be a little bit careful. Like the security stuff is really important because again, if you wanna be a mainstream tech provider, you gotta know about security and governance and all those things. No enterprise is just gonna let them use some tech that doesn't have security.

风险太大了。你会面临很多这类要求，但也要保持清醒。不能只为单一企业定制产品，要确保解决方案能适用于200家企业。某些大客户会试图用影响力推动定制开发。

The risk is too big. So you're gonna get a lot of that, but you also need to be conscious. You don't wanna build something that's just for one enterprise. Right? You wanna make sure whatever you're building is gonna be applicable to 200 and, you know, you get some of these big customers, they can they can wield a pretty big stick in terms of trying to do custom engineering.

该接定制开发吗？如果仅服务于单一客户就别做。科技公司最宝贵的资产是工程师，应该让他们专注于市场创新。为单一客户定制可能让整个工程团队偏离正轨。

Should you ever do custom engineering? I wouldn't do it if it's just for one customer because, again, as a small company, your number one asset at tech company is your engineers. And you want them innovating on how you build the market and grow the market. If you build something custom just for one customer and nobody else is gonna buy it, you might distract your whole engineering team.

你说过投资企业级市场是深思熟虑的决定。现实中这具体意味着什么？

You said you made a very conscious decision to invest in enterprise. Yeah. What does that actually mean in reality?

这是整个团队的决定。创始人们要明确表态：我们要攻占这个领域。

It's a decision that's the whole team. Right? It's Ali, the founders. Hey. We're gonna go after this segment.

这是否意味着你们要退出中小型企业市场？

Does that mean you leave the SMB segment?

我们维持了这块业务。当时在Arcelon，我们聘请了一位一线主管——他是创始人之一，负责销售运营。这人聪明绝顶、技术过硬、善于交际，还是个万里挑一的优秀领导者。他表示愿意继续维持中小型数字原生企业业务，这部分在我们开拓企业级市场时仍在持续创收。

We kept that going. We hired a first line leader that would just, you know in Arcelon at the time, he was running sales, one of the founders. Crazy smart, technical, gregarious, great leader too, like, one in a billion. And, you know, he was like, okay. I'm gonna keep the SMB DNBs going, which was generating money as we kinda built out the enterprise segment.

所以我们实际上是双线并行。虽然任务繁重，但毕竟我之前有过类似经验。

So we personally did both. It's a handful, but, you know, I had done that before.

两者能兼顾吗？

Can you do both?

完全可以兼顾。

You can do both.

因为我经常看到初创公司只盯着企业级市场——虽然客单价高，但销售周期要9到12个月。一旦进度延误，转眼间就青黄不接了。

Because I really why when you see startups that are just going after enterprise Yep. And you have, like, big ACVs, but nine to twelve month sales cycles Yep. And then they slip. Yeah. And suddenly you've got nothing.

确实不容易。就像我说的，这取决于你的资金储备。毕竟企业级市场是必经之路，但数字原生企业在云服务、数据和AI领域投入巨大。

Well, I mean, it's hard. Like I said, it depends on what kind of funding you have. Right? Because eventually your business has to have enterprise. But the digital natives spend a lot of money, especially in the cloud, data, and AI.

而且他们往往也是行业风向标

And they're also gonna be the canary in the

在年收入达到1000万美元之前就涉足企业级？

coal enterprise before 10,000,000 in ARR stay?

我们第一年就做到了，我记得当年ARR做到1200或1300万美元时，企业级业务贡献了200万美元

We did in our first year, which I think we did 12 or 13,000,000 ARR, we did 2,000,000

你现在做到了12.13亿美元。

you did $1,213,000,000 now.

是的。我们与企业达成了200万美元的交易。但重申一次，你必须清楚自己在做什么。我认为验证产品市场匹配度是明智的，因为那些小客户会教会你未来市场的需求。就像煤矿里的金丝雀，他们总是最早推动技术边界的那群人。

Yeah. We did $2,000,000 deals with enterprise. So again, you have to know what you're doing though. I think it is smart to do product market fit because those smaller customers will educate you on the requirements of the future market. So again, the canary in the coal mine, they're always gonna be the ones pressing the technology boundaries early days.

企业客户会在下一阶段采纳这些技术。但要记住，企业客户会有数字原生代可能不关心的另一套需求，比如安全性等问题。这些你也需要学习。

Enterprises are gonna adopt that as the next phase. But again, you gotta remember, enterprises are gonna have another set of requirements that the digital natives might not have around security and all those things. You need to learn about that stuff too.

1200万到1300万美元的收入。嗯，如果第一年就能做到这个数字，你们的销售周期不算长。

12 to 13,000,000 in revenue. Yeah. Your sales cycles are not that long then if you're doing 12 to 13 in the first year.

早期我们积压了些需求，大概三到六个月周期，因为用户基本都是免费的，我们只需要说服他们为何需要付费升级。我加入时公司有数十万Spark免费用户，我当时想：要是连这些都转化不了，我就太差劲了。

I think early days, we had some pent up demand of just you know, it was probably three to six months because they were basically free users, and we just had to sell them on why they needed to get more of our premium stuff by paying for it, you know. Again, when I joined, we had hundreds of thousands of Spark free users. I was like, if I can't sell them something, I suck at sales.

你在组建第一支销售团队时犯过错吗？

Did you make mistakes in your hiring of your first sales team?

早期成员很多是我认识的人。我需要聪明、进取、擅长需求挖掘和客户关系维护的类型。当然，当你...

A lot of those early folks were people I knew. Like, they were known quantities. Like, I wanted smart, hungry, good at discovery, good at customer relationships, things of that nature. But of course, when you're

年轻创始人或早期公司在组建1-10人销售团队时，你见过哪些致命错误？

What are the big fuck ups you see young founders or early stage companies making that one to 10 on building a sales team?

最大误区是很多创始人觉得'招了销售我就能撒手了'。技术型创始人通常不喜欢销售，总想找人接手。但理想情况下你仍需参与，因为创始人亲自销售能最直接获取产品反馈。

Probably the biggest thing is a lot of founders think, oh, I hired my a salesperson, now I don't need to do sales. Because a lot of technical founders, they don't really enjoy sales, right? So, I need a salesperson to, like, take this off my plate. I wanna focus more on the product and engineering. But ideally, you still need to be involved in sales because again, founder led sales requires you to hear about your product.

没人会比你对产品更有热情。在年收入达到5-10亿美元、形成可复制的销售方法论之前，你都必须参与。最大的错误就是完全委派给销售——他们可能搞砸，让你至少倒退12个月。

No one's gonna be more passionate about selling your product, you have to still be involved until you can kinda get that, like I said, probably around $510,000,000 where you have kind of a, okay, I know what people are buying, I can build a first playbook. That's the biggest mistake, is just don't delegate it to the salesperson because they could mess that up and that sets you back at least twelve months.

所以也别把销售当成产品市场契合度的万能药。比如那种'哦，他们没卖出去就是他们的错'的想法。其实可能是你还没达到产品市场契合。是的，事情没那么简单。

So And also don't think sales is like a panacea for product market fit. Whereas like, oh, well, they didn't sell, so it's their fault. And it's like, well, maybe you just don't have PMF yet. Yeah. That's not all

不全是销售人员的错。或许该听听客户意见，毕竟人有两只耳朵一张嘴。即便是现在，优秀销售也会通过提问来理解市场对产品的需求。我常被这个困境困扰：当你处于...

the seller's fault. Or maybe listen to your customers, you know, two ears, one mouth. And even today, good salespeople ask good questions, understand what the market wants from your product. I'm always struck by the dilemma between when you're

早期1到10的发展阶段时，是该横向测试不同客户群体的反应——无论是金融服务业、物流业、医疗保健业，还是其他任何可开拓的领域？还是该专注金融服务业，配备垂直化销售团队、精准的产品营销和专门优化的销售流程？选择横向铺开还是垂直深耕...

in those early one to 10 phase. Do you do horizontal, see what resonates with different customer bases, be it financial services, be it logistics, be it health care, you name the different sectors that we can sell into? Or do you go, no. Gonna sell to financial services with a verticalized sales team, very tight product marketing, and a really honed sales process for financial services? Do you go horizontal and broad or verticalized and

我认为必须从横向开始，因为你本质上是在探索产品对不同行业的适用性。Databricks直到年收入突破5亿后才开始垂直化。对吧？5亿美元。没错。

I mean, I think you have to start horizontal because you're, again, learning what's your applicability to the different verticals. I didn't go vertical at Databricks till we were probably 500,000,000 plus. Right? 500,000,000. Yeah.

因为，就像...

Because, like, again, like

你中间跳过了几个发展阶段。

You skipped a few steps there.

我们当时是1300万美元。我知道。我是说，垂直化销售团队意味着要增加全新层面的资源和复杂度。对吧？因为你要引入行业专家...

We were at 13 a million. I know. I'm I'm just saying, like, I think when you verticalize your sales team, there's a whole another level of, like, resources and complexity that you're gonna add. Right? Because you're gonna add industry experts.

需要增加行业术语培训、客户案例等全套内容。早期阶段或许该主攻金融服务业，但我发现当时金融业还没上云。既然我们要做云服务，早期就不该找他们。应该先卖给已经上云的企业。

You need to add that vernacular, add that to your training, to your enablement, your customer stories, all that kind of stuff. Early days, maybe financial services is the place to go. Like what I learned was financial services isn't in the cloud yet. If we're gonna be cloud, we're probably not gonna sell financial services early days. Let's go sell to the folks that are in the cloud already.

你同意不该花时间教育客户认知问题吗？就像我不愿向LP解释为什么要投风投——这需要两步：先说服他们投风投，再说服他们投我。你要找的是那些已经认同云服务价值的人，而不是教育他们云服务有多好。

Do you agree that you don't want to educate your customers on the problem? And so, like, for me, I don't want to tell LPs that they should be investing in venture because it's two steps. Then I need to convince them to invest in venture and then to invest in me. You want people who know that the cloud is where they should be and then, Databricks, not educating them that the cloud is good.

现在规模不同可能略有变化，但早期如果客户还没上云，就像隔山打牛。应该让云服务商去说服他们上云，我们要专注能快速成交的客户。时间是最宝贵的资源，尤其对销售而言。别把时间浪费在不可能成交的人身上，对吧？

It might be a little bit different now at the scale we're at, but, like, early days, if they weren't in the cloud, it was like bridge to door. Let the cloud folks convince them they need to be in the cloud because we need to generate customers and revenue. You spend a lot of time, time's your most precious commodity, right? Especially as a salesperson. So don't spend a bunch of time with people that aren't gonna buy anything, right?

你需要去寻找，这样整个世界就都成为我们的潜在客户。每个客户都可能成为新客户。我们的一个筛选问题是：你们上云了吗？如果还没上云，那你们就还没准备好使用Databricks。所以让云服务商去争夺那部分市场吧。

You need to go find so the whole world is our prospect at that point. Every customer is a potential new customer. One of our qualifying questions is, are you in the cloud? If you're not in the cloud, then you're not ready for Databricks. So let the cloud guys fight that out.

我们现在营收是1300万美元。对，先别急着提500万的事。垂直化战略定得实在太晚了。我当时就想——

So we're at 13,000,000 in revenue now. Yeah. Hold your horses on the 500. That's a shockingly late decision on verticalization. I was like,

很多公司现在还是横向发展的。它们会继续保持横向发展对吧？就像AWS也是最近才转向垂直领域的，整个公司都是如此。他们可是千亿级规模。

very A lot of companies are still horizontal. They'll still be horizontal. Right? Like, I think AWS just moved to verticals, right, across the whole organization. They're a 100,000,000,000.

所以我的意思是，这又是制定垂直化战略时必须做出的一个选择。

So, like I mean, again, I think that's another choice you have to make on your strategy when you verticalize.

1300万美元。那么当销售团队从1人扩展到10人，现在又向50人规模迈进时，哪些方面开始发生变化？

So 13,000,000. Yeah. What starts to change when the sales team goes from one to 10 to now in that scaling to 50 10 to 50 mode?

是的。现在我们找到了产品市场契合点。我们有了一些成功案例，了解了客户的购买方式和动机。

Yeah. Now we have product market fit. Right? We have some references. We've seen how customers buy, why they buy.

现在我们要开始规模化运作。可以着手建立真正的销售指南，培训越来越多的销售人员。

Now we're starting to get into the scale function. Now we can start to build a real playbook, start to train more and more salespeople.

别笑。你说建立销售指南，是真的要编写一个包含所有应问问题的文档吗？

Don't laugh. When you say build a playbook, do you literally create a doc of questions that they should ask,

常见问题集？完全正确。探索指南里列出所有问题：首先是目标客户画像，然后是这些客户中具体决策者的特征。

of FAQs? Totally. Discovery guide, here are the questions. You start with, here's the profile of the customer we're looking for. Here's the actual profile of the people in those customers.

接着列出我们需要提问的内容，首次推介时的产品定位。根据销售流程决定：是要做概念验证还是试点项目？这取决于你销售的产品性质。关键是展示如何获取价值，证明价值，最终完成签单。所以这个指南要详细制定，全员培训。他们必须掌握这套方法，才能快速复制成功，不断获取客户。

Then here are the questions we need to ask. Here's what how we position it during the first pitch deck. And then depending on your process, okay, are we gonna run POC or pilot forum depending on what what you're trying to sell as an intuitive how to get value out of it, demonstrate value and then try to, you know, close a customer. So you're building out that playbook, you're training everyone on it, They need to know how to do that so that you can rinse and repeat as fast as possible and gather customers.

我这么说完全是出于尊重。如果规则已经如此明确刻板，

I mean this with the utmost of respect. If it's bluntly that codified,

能

can

我们干脆找几只猴子来做这事不行吗？我是说，客户资料和问题就摆在那儿。真的，搞个AI虚拟形象算了。

we not just get some monkeys do this? I mean, it's like, here's the customer, here's the profile, here's the questions. Yeah. I mean, shit. Let's just get an AI avatar.

是啊。要知道很多人都在问能否用AI替代销售。我认为销售某些环节确实可以——比如制定销售手册这类工作，等素材齐备后。但初创阶段这些都得从零搭建。

Yeah. Know. I mean, a lot of people say, like, hey, can we replace sales with AI? And I think there are parts of sales you can replace with AI, like maybe building a playbook, some of those things once you get those assets. But again, early days, you're creating that from scratch.

AI总得有个学习样本。

It has to learn from something.

想象下集成在Gong里的销售手册生成器：它能分析语气、声调变化、用词效果、语义，然后推荐最佳提问方式。

Because if you think about, like, a playbook creator integrated into Gong, it could analyze tone, changes in voice Totally. Words, semantics, which work, and then say Yeah.

确实应该利用AI来优化初期工作。但只要采购决策者是人，销售就永远需要人——因为采购是情感决策过程，需要权衡解决哪些问题、如何从众多方案中选择，最终取决于'我最信任谁'、'哪家能最快达成目标'。

What are the best questions to ask? Yeah. Certainly should get should be able to use AI to get way better at that early days. But the one thing that will always require humans to sell are if humans are buying, because the buying process is an emotional process. You're trying to choose what problems do you wanna solve, what are the most important problems to solve, how do I solve them amongst many different options.

当技术方案各有优劣时，决策绝非非黑即白。等哪天机器人之间做买卖时，自然不需要销售。但只要人类还在解决问题和采购，就需要人类销售员。

And a lot of it gets down to if the technologies are okay, this one has some pros and cons, this one has some pros and cons, who do I trust the most, which organization do I think can get me there the fastest. If that's a person making the decision, it's not black or white. When bots are selling to bots, they don't need salespeople. But as long as as humans are actually solving problems and buying stuff, you need humans to sell it.

回到千万级规模的话题。你们突破这个阶段的关键是什么？

So going back to the 10 to 50 Mhmm. For you, what broken that phase?

超速增长阶段——就像现在某些AI公司经历的——不能按传统企业20%年增速来规划。当业务要翻两三倍时，团队架构必须超前布局：明年要做到五千万，后年可能两亿五千万，组织架构必须按这个量级来设计。

When you're in this hyperscale phase, which I kinda see with some of the new AI companies, right, there's some great scaling AI companies, is you have to start thinking, like, traditional business might grow 20% year over year, when you're doubling tripling. My staffing and my leadership plan has to be what I need next year. So you can't be like, okay, I'm gonna incrementally add reps or leaders. You have to be thinking, we're gonna do 50,000,000, next year we're gonna do, you know, we did a 100 or two fifty. Like what does my org need to look at at a 100,000,000, 250,000,000?

而我现在就需要行动。所以我必须去争取那些领导者，亲自说服他们为何这是千载难逢的机遇——招募比当下所需更顶尖的人才。因为一旦团队和领导层搭建完成，我就能开始在他们之下扩展规模。听着，我最重要的建议是：你必须至少前瞻十二个月，如果只是被动应对，你永远无法快速增长。

And I need to do that now. So I need to go get those leaders, I need to sell them personally why this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to get even bigger leaders than I need today. Because once I start building out the team and the leadership, now I can start scaling under them. You know, my biggest advice is, you know, you need to look at least twelve months out because if you're just trying to iterate, you're not gonna grow fast.

提前招聘是否存在风险？比如当企业ARR达到1300万美元时，就提前一年招揽人才，有时组织可能还没准备好消化这些人才。这种情况存在吗？还是说尽早引入人才总是明智之举？

Is it ever dangerous to hire ahead of time? And what I mean by that is if you're hiring at 13,000,000 in ARR Yeah. And then you're bringing in people for like a year ahead of time, sometimes an org is not ready to digest talent. Is that ever the case, or is it actually just good to get them in earlier?

不，这个问题需要深思。明白吗？我们要考虑的是——这将对公司文化产生什么影响？

No. I think you have to think about that. Right? Like, what does it take for us? It's like we're gonna start to also have an impact on the culture of the company.

就像Databricks至今仍保持着浓厚的工程师技术文化。当你引入销售团队时，他们的思维方式截然不同。所以必须考虑文化融合的问题。

Like, Databricks is very engineering even to this day, it's very engineering technical culture. When you start adding salespeople, they have kind of a different mindset, you know. So you have to think about how that culture fits into that.

你认为销售代表能适应这种文化吗？

Do you think the sales reps are going to operate it?

顶尖的销售不会。听着，人们选择销售是因为财务回报高。但我要找的人不会早期就问'我能赚多少'。他们必须热爱使命——最关键的是你在组建一支军队。

Not the best ones. I mean, listen, you go into sales because it has, you know, financial upside. The people I'm looking for, they don't ask, like, how much do I make early on? You gotta make sure they they love the mission. Like, the most important thing is you're building an army.

他们必须热爱使命。首先要热爱公司。唯有热爱使命与公司

They gotta love the mission. They gotta love the company first. Once they love the mission and the company

如果我说'我他妈就想赚钱，保证超额完成任务'，你会介意吗？

Would you mind if I came and I just said, I am fucking hungry to make money and I will crush it and make sure I

完成指标？我欣赏这种拼劲和能量。但也要考虑：当你失败时怎么办？遇到困境时你会跳槽吗？不。

hit quota? I mean, I love I love the grit and the energy, you know what I mean? But I also think in, like, okay, what happens when you don't? What happens when it gets tough? Are you gonna go to the next company and No.

我会归咎于领导不力。所以我查看简历时，如果看到频繁跳槽（每1-2年换工作），这种人不会在Databricks久留。我需要的是——

I blame you. Move around for poor leadership. So I I mean, I look on people's resumes, right, like if they have a bunch of one or two year stints, they're not long for Databricks. I need people like,

当这个得到 你喜欢在

when this get What do you like to

简历中看到什么？是的。首先，我寻找的是坚韧，勤奋和毅力。比如，我希望有人能告诉我，嘿，我在这里遇到了一些挑战，但我克服了，我拼命工作并取得了成功，对吧？我也看重技术背景，比如我会看具体的公司经历。

see in a resume? Yeah. Again, I'm looking for grit, first of all, hard work and grit. Like, I want somebody to tell me like, hey, I had some challenges here but I worked through it, I worked my tail off and kicked some ass, right? I look for technical backgrounds too, like I'm looking for specific company profiles.

因为我知道，如果我招到一个已经具备数据AI技术能力的销售人员，他们的上手速度会比完全新手快得多。后者需要从头学习整个技术领域。对吧？更重要的是，这个人之前是否销售过类似ACV规模的产品，是否有过类似客户群体的经验

Because I know if I get a salesperson that already has some data AI technical capabilities, they're gonna ramp way faster than somebody who's brand new. They gotta learn the entire technology space. Right? What's more important, someone has sold an ACV size before, a customer profile before

嗯。或者他们具备该领域的专业知识。

Mhmm. Or they have the domain knowledge of the space.

早期阶段，专业知识更重要。是的。我是这么认为的。为什么呢？

Early days, it's the domain knowledge. That's more important. Yeah. I think so. Why is that?

因为说到底，你要教会客户如何从你的技术中获取价值，如果你不能提供价值，特别是在当今世界，有这么多技术型买家，他们其实不太喜欢销售人员。他们最不想做的就是和那种只会说'嘿，想去打高尔夫吗'的人交谈。他们真正需要的是能帮他们解决问题的人。

Because again, you're trying to teach customers how to get value out of your technology and if you don't add value, like especially in today's world, there's so many technical buyers, they don't really like salespeople. Like the last thing they wanna do is talk to somebody who's like, hey, you know, you wanna go golfing or whatever. Like they actually want somebody that's gonna help them solve problems.

你为什么不直接让销售工程师来处理这部分呢？

Do you not just tie that in with a sales engineer?

我们有个很棒的团队，我们称之为现场工程团队，Arsalan负责管理。这是个很棒的团队，对吧？但我认为销售人员本身必须提供价值。早期阶段是技术价值。随着规模扩大，比如我们现在有1亿美元级别的客户，你需要那些了解组织架构、能够接触高管层的人。

I mean, we had a great, we call it field engineering but and Arsalan runs that team. It's a great team, right? But I think the salesperson themselves has to add value. In early days, it's technical. Now as you get bigger, like we have $100,000,000 accounts, you know, you need people that know the organization, can get access to the c level, all that stuff.

但在早期阶段，当你还在争取品牌合作和初期客户时，你必须能够提供价值。你必须能够教导你的客户。

But early days when you're just trying to get logos and early customers, you gotta be able to add value. You gotta be able to teach your customers.

1亿美元级别的客户。是啊。天哪，我希望他们有客户成功代表。

$100,000,000 accounts. Yeah. God, I I hope they got a customer success rep.

他们有很多人手。我确定他们有。

They have lots of people. I'm sure they do.

你在开玩笑吗？太疯狂了。一亿美元的账户。

Are you kidding me? That's insane. $100,000,000 accounts.

是啊。我们刚处理了一个1.9亿的。不，所以，是的，相当不错。

Yeah. We just did one for a 190,000,000 actually. No. So, yeah, it's pretty good.

那感觉一定很棒吧。

That must feel pretty great.

没错。确实很棒。你

Yeah. That's pretty great. Did you

在Slack上发消息了吗？

put a Slack message out?

尤其是当我们卖18美元的时候。

Especially when we're selling $18.

是啊。你

Yeah. You

懂吧？还不赖。

know? Not too bad.

回头买些优步的股票。是啊。不

Back and buy some Ubers. Yeah. Not

太糟糕了。

too bad.

好的。所以我们定13。我们有这个流程。第二年末我们达到什么阶段了？

Okay. So we're going 13. We have this process. Where are we at the end

第二年？50？对。30到40左右吧。我们第二年做到了三四倍的增长。

of year two? 50? Yeah. 30 to 40, something like that. We did a three to four x the next year.

对。大概那个范围。所以我们可能达到了50。

Yeah. Somewhere around that. So we might have got to 50.

领导团队有没有给你们施压要求达成目标？

Did the leadership team put pressure on you to hit targets?

其实现在我和李算是联合创始人，你知道，公司早期的时候。对吧？他主要负责产品和工程开发，然后帮我搭建市场推广这些。阿里是那种人，他总想把目标定得尽可能高。早期时我总在协调，得确保大家也能赚到钱。

I mean, now Lee and I kinda built and the founders, you know, the early days of the company. Right? He basically built out the product and the engineering and, you know, helped me build out the go to market and stuff like that. Ali's one of those guys, he wants to set the target as high as possible. And early days, I'm trying to make sure, well, let's make sure people can make some money too.

对吧？所以总是存在这种矛盾。

Right? So there's always that tension. What are

在制定薪酬方案方面你最大的经验是什么？因为让人赚钱且有成就感很重要。

your biggest lessons on setting comp plans effectively? Because it is important people make money and feel like they're winning.

千真万确。你的重要经验呢？早期必须确保销售员能超额完成指标并赚到钱，因为这会成为你最好的招聘引擎。当你试图推销一家收入微薄的公司时，需要人们愿意冒险。他们必须按下信任按钮。

Thousand percent. What are your big lessons? Early days, you gotta make sure that salespeople are crushing their numbers and making money, because that's gonna be your best recruiting engine. When you're trying to sell a company that has small revenue, you need people to take a leap of faith. They gotta hit the believe button.

所以我当时就想，谁会成为我的第一个百万美元销售？我会确保那个人能做到，因为你知道吗？我想挖的那些顶级销售会问：有人赚到过百万吗？然后说能见见那个人吗？接着他们就会判断这个成绩能否复制。

So I was like, who's gonna be my first million dollar earner? And I would make sure that that person does that because you know what? The best reps I would try to hire, they go, has anybody made a million bucks? And then they're like, can I meet them? And then they're gonna determine, is that possible to replicate?

早期阶段，人们必须超额完成指标、赚大钱，这是绝佳的招聘手段。那么现在这意味着什么

Early days, people have to be blowing out their numbers and making tons of money, and it's a great recruiting tool. Now So what does

你是故意设定较低目标让他们达成，然后这些目标就变得不再低了吗

mean that do you set them deliberately low goals so they hit them and then they become Not low

目标不是要低，但我要确保是可实现的目标。我希望目标具有挑战性但可实现，而且我会把计划制定得相当激进，你懂我意思吗？

goals, but I wanna make sure they're achievable goals. I want them to be stretched but achievable, and I'm gonna make the plans, like, pretty rich, you know what I mean?

他们的计划指标是薪资的四倍？你是怎么考虑设定

And their plans are like four x salary? Like, how do you think about setting

这个比例的？普通企业销售代表年薪30到35万。如果他们超额完成，你希望他们能赚三倍。早期我们做大额签约交易，就像我说的，有个家伙第一年赚了百万美元，之后规模扩大，现在销售团队可能有20人年入百万。

it effectively? Mean, a normal enterprise rep, you know, you're gonna pay 300, 350 k. So, you know, if they blow it out, you want them to make three x. In early days, we were doing big commit deals. I mean, like I said, I have one guy make a million bucks in the first year and then scale it and, you know, now we probably have 20 guys make a million bucks in, in the sales team.

所以你必须始终保留这些高收入者，因为他们做销售的部分原因就是为了赚大钱。

So you But you always have to have those big earners because it's part of the reason they're in sales, is because they wanna the big payday. Wow.

我需要年入百万以上吗？当然。你失去过年薪百万以上的员工吗？

Do I need make a million dollars plus? Yeah. Have you ever lost a million dollar plus person?

最终总会有人想去下一家初创公司尝试，虽然我们留存率很高，但规模扩大后，在佣金分配上也要更精明。变化是什么？就是更严格把控？我们现在有1400名销售代表，5000人的销售团队，佣金预算必须控制在特定范围内。

I mean, eventually, people are like, hey, wanna go to the next startup and try to do that because we have great, retention, but as you scale, you have to be a little bit smarter too on how you spend your commissions. What changes? You just get tighter? You know, we have 1,400 reps now, we have 5,000 people in sales. So like, you know, there's a certain budget we have to have on commission.

所以我们会制定计划，预估多少人能达成200%、150%指标，这需要精密建模。现在规模大了，不像只有20人时那么简单。你有没有看过

So we'll schedule a plan. We know this many people are gonna make 200%, a 150, you know, you model it out. It's pretty sophisticated because now you have big numbers. It's not like you have 20 people. Do you ever look at

这些数据然后觉得太疯狂了？5000人啊，我记得

it and go like, it's fucking nuts. Like, 5,000 people. I remember

当我和

when it was me and

阿里一起时，他好像在卖18美元的套餐。

Ali, he's like selling $18 deals.

很有趣吧。我知道。是不是？是啊，挺有意思的。

It's funny. I know. Isn't it Yeah. It's fun.

想想就很有趣。世界。

It's fun to think. World.

是啊，太棒了。

Yeah. It's awesome.

好的。所以我们有这些。我们有那百万用户。很好。当你观察他们，比如说那20个人时，

Okay. And so we have that. We have those million people. Great. When you look at them, say the 20, are

有没有什么特质让你觉得，我在他们大多数人甚至所有人身上都看到了这种非传统或非常规的特质？是的。就像我说的，我经常谈论毅力和勤奋。你知道，我父亲是建筑工人，母亲是数学老师。他们教会我，勤奋每天都能战胜天赋。

there things where you're like, I see that nonconventional or unconventional trait in most of them slash all of them? Yeah. Like I said, I talk a lot about grit and hard work. You know, my dad was a construction worker, my mom was a math teacher. They taught me, like, hard work overcomes talent every single day.

所以我在寻找的特殊品质就是，这个人是否愿意投入额外的时间，拥有额外的毅力？当情况变得艰难时，他们会不会只是待在办公室更久，打更多电话，诸如此类？

So I'm looking for that's the special quality I'm looking for is, like, is this person gonna put in the extra hours, have the extra grit? When times get tough, are they just gonna stay in the office longer, make more phone calls, that kind of thing?

你觉得现在这样的销售人员多吗？我和Saster的杰森·兰普金是挚友。我真的很喜欢这个人。我父亲和Venture可能会讨厌我这么说，说我是他大哥，但你知道，他比我年长不少。他总是说，不，哈利，现在的销售代表不想再努力工作了。

Do you think there's many salespeople like that today? I am with dear friends with Jason Lampkin from Saster. I love the man, really. My my father and Venture, probably hate that and say I'm his older brother, but you know, he's considerably older than me. And he's always like, no, Harry, sales reps don't want to work anymore.

如果他们不想工作，他们就想应付了事然后回家。你觉得这一代的销售代表不愿意像以前那样努力工作了吗？

If they don't want to work, they want to dial it in and like go home. Do you find that the sales reps of this generation are not willing to work as hard as they used to?

我是说，在我的团队里行不通。重申一次，这正是我努力打造的文化。而且我认为，如果你是个优秀的销售，你会问我：'我们有没有流失过资深员工？'最终总会有人说：'嘿，我是创业型人才，喜欢在初创公司工作，不想待在九千人或上万人的大企业'，于是他们又回到初创公司。但归根结底，我认为这正是我们需要教导下一代销售人员的，因为未来竞争只会更加激烈。

I mean, won't work on my team. Again, like, that's the kind of culture that I try to build. And again, I think if you're a good salesperson, you ask me like, did we lose any older breakers? Like eventually, like somebody's like, hey, I'm a startup person, I like to work at startups, I don't wanna work at a, you know, 9,000 person company or 10,000 person company, so they go to a startup again. But at the end of the day, like, I think that's what we have to teach that next generation of sellers, because it's gonna get even more competitive.

拼命工作。比所有人都更勤奋。随着Databricks成为行业巨头，招聘拼命三郎是否变得更难？我认为Databricks是千载难逢的公司，它将成为万亿美元市值的巨头。

Work your ass off. Out hustle everyone. Does it get harder to hire the hustlers as Databricks becomes an incumbent? I think Databricks is a once in a lifetime type company. It will be a trillion dollar company.

在数据与AI领域，必将诞生万亿美元市值的公司，而我们是创新领导者。我认为我们能做到。所以当考虑在这种规模下获取人才时——毕竟我们已经跨越了几个发展阶段——我们必须成为人们向往的标杆企业。人们会想：'我要加入Databricks，因为那里能成就我的职业生涯，有朝一日我想成为首席营收官或CEO，而他们将教会我如何在这个正确领域做到最好。'

Somebody in that data and AI space will become a trillion dollar company, and we're the innovation leaders. I think we can do it. Right? And so part of that when you think about getting talent at this level of scale, because we've kind of skipped a couple stages now, is we have to become a destination company. People have to be like, I want go to Databricks because I can build my career there, because someday I wanna be a CRO or a CEO or whatever, and they're gonna teach me about how to do that in the right space better than anybody.

想想微软或谷歌的早期。吸引人才的关键在于成为人们心之所向的企业，我认为Databricks在这方面做得相当出色。

I mean, think about like Microsoft early days or Google early days. Like, a big part of getting talent is you have to become a destination company, and, I think Databricks is is doing a pretty good job of that.

我很认同成为标杆企业这个观点。当公司规模从千万级发展到每小时营收上亿时，你需要的销售领导者类型发生了哪些变化？

I love that in terms of being a destination company. How did the type of sales leader that you needed to be changed from 10 to a 100,000,000 an hour?

没错。上亿规模意味着需要更多流程和赋能支持。我不可能认识每个人，也无法亲自参与每笔交易。所以关键在于如何打造领导团队。

Yeah. I mean, a 100,000,000, you know, now you got a lot more process, a lot more enablement. You know, I don't know everyone. I can't just reach out and make sure I get involved in the deals. And so a big part of it is how do you build that leadership team?

我们之前讨论过未来12到24个月需要什么——你需要培养领导者，使他们能有效开发人才。我的准则是：如果你拥有全球最优秀的团队，并能激励、指导他们，你就赢了。我们还有出色的产品优势，但最重要的始终是——如果我派出最优秀的团队，他们得到良好指导和激励，我们就能赢。在Databricks建设成功领导团队方面，你最大的经验教训是什么？

Again, we talked a little bit about, like, what do you need in the next twelve to twenty four months? So you need to build leaders so that they can effectively develop talent. My rule is, like, if you have the best team on the planet and you inspire, motivate, mentor them, you get to win. I mean, we have a great product, which is also a massive advantage for us, but that's the number one thing you can do is if I put the best team on the field and they're well coached and inspired, I'm gonna win. What have been your biggest lessons on building a successful leadership team with Databricks?

我认为很大程度上取决于人才画像与文化融合。我们经常强调'第一团队'理念——第一团队就是整个公司。

Yeah. So I think a lot of it's like, again, the profile and cultural mix. Right? We talk a lot about first team. First team is the company.

销售领导层级越高，就越要以公司利益为重。你存在的意义不仅是确保下属成功，更要明白：'这是我们的公司使命，我们要共同实现它。'

So sales leadership, the higher you go, the more it's gotta be about the company. You're not there to just make sure your people are successful or you know what I mean? It's gotta be, okay, here's our company mission. We're together. We're gonna do it.

因此我认为这种团队情谊的建立，以及文化的塑造，与销售工作中的任何环节同等重要。人们需要感受到自己正在参与一项特殊使命。Databricks文化最糟糕的时期是什么时候？出了什么问题？说实话，我认为我们的文化一直很优秀。

And so I think that camaraderie and how you build that team and how you build the culture is as important as anything else that you do in sales. People need to be feel like they're part of a a special mission. When was the culture at Databricks the worst and what went wrong? The worst. I thought we've always had a great culture, honestly.

我确实不能说我们有过糟糕的文化。

I I can't really say we have had bad culture.

什么时候遇到过具有挑战性的时期？

When was there a challenging time?

随着规模不断扩大，我认为关键之一在于如何保持初创时期的活力文化。当你还是个坚韧创新的初创公司时，这是巨大优势。实际上我觉得Databricks在这方面做得不错，对吧？创始团队的核心精神就是——我们要做创新者、颠覆者、酷酷的极客，明白我的意思吗？

As you scale bigger and bigger, one of the keys, I think, is probably how do you keep that early day culture. It's such a huge advantage when you're like a gritty, innovative startup. I think we've done a good job actually at Databricks keeping that, right? Like that's a big part of the founders is, like, we wanna be the innovators, the disruptors, the cool nerdy kids. You know what I mean?

这就是我们想成为的样子。保持这种坚韧的文化而不沦为臃肿的大公司是个挑战。规模扩张时，如何避免变成官僚主义盛行、流程僵化、管理层与员工对立的典型大企业？但我觉得我们做得相当好，我们的文化堪称业界标杆。

Like, that's what we wanna be. And so keeping that culture where you have grit and all that and not becoming a big company, that's a challenge. As you scale, how do you keep that and not become a big company where people are just it's bureaucratic, it's process, it's, you know, all the management team versus the the workers. So but I think we've done a pretty good job of that. I think our culture is second to none.

这是我们成功的重要因素。

It's a big part of why we're successful.

在从0到5000亿这个巨大跨度中，以事后之明来看，你最后悔没做哪些事？

In the 0 to 500,000,000,000 range, which is a huge range, what did you not do with the benefit of hindsight you wish you'd done?

我本应更早大规模投入合作伙伴渠道。合作伙伴很有意思，特别是大型系统集成商。那时我们已经和阿里合作，还与微软达成了具有历史意义的交易——现在微软仍是我们最大的合作伙伴。

I started to invest in the partner channel much bigger. Partners are interesting, right? Like especially the big partners, big SI partners. At that point, we had already done Ali and I did the deal with Microsoft, right, which became kinda pretty, historical, I think, in legend. And it's still, you know, Microsoft's our, you know, biggest partner.

他们是非常棒的合作伙伴。但你要尽早规划渠道和合作伙伴战略。公司太小时总想着如何吸引合作伙伴，却因体量太小被拒之门外。可一旦开始规模化，就必须提前布局合作伙伴关系。

It's amazing partner for us. But like, know, you gotta start thinking through like channels and partner strategies and when you're so small, you're always thinking like, how do I get these partners involved? But you're too small and like, you know, go away. But once you start getting scale, you need to start investing early days in partners.

所以你觉得这方面启动得不够早？

And so you didn't do that early enough?

确实可以更早启动，毫无疑问。我认为...

Well, I think we could have done it earlier. Yeah. Absolutely. I think a

许多创始人将渠道合作视为万能药。我们会与Salesforce建立合作关系，然后就会一飞冲天。是啊。秘诀是什么

lot of founders see channel partnerships as like the panacea. We're gonna have a partnership with Salesforce and it's gonna be like boom. Yeah. What are the secret

早期阶段很难做到。我想说的是，如果你的规模不到5千万或1亿美元，你需要先建立强大的直销渠道，然后才能发展合作伙伴渠道。但现在我们年收入5亿美元了，应该通过渠道规模化推进业务，对吧？

Early days, it's hard to do. Like like I would say if you're less than 50 or a 100,000,000, like you need to build a strong direct sales channel and then you can build the partner channel. But at 500,000,000 now, we should be scaling moving stuff through channels, right?

要真正做好合作伙伴渠道需要什么条件？好问题。

What does it take to do partner channels really well? Good question.

因为有时候，那些负责合作伙伴的领导者，就像是没能成功的销售主管。所以我实际上更倾向于雇佣...

Because sometimes, like partner leaders, they're like sales leaders that didn't make it sometimes. So I try to actually hire

就像风投行业，很多都是创业失败的人转行做的。

It's like VCs, which is founders that didn't make it.

我喜欢雇佣那些具备出色销售敏锐度和销售领导力的人才，这些特质同样适用于渠道建设。作为首席营收官，我虽然是销售负责人，但也会把30%-40%的时间花在合作伙伴上，因为我想打造这个渠道。这是一项在构建规模化业务时必须掌握的技能。单纯找那些只做过合作业务的人有时不太靠谱，我更倾向于找既做过销售又接触过合作业务的人，他们往往能更全面地规划职业发展。

I like to hire, you know, people that have strong sales acumen, sales leadership, a lot of the same qualities that wanna build out channels because again, like, you know, me as a as a CRO, I'm a sales leader but I also spend, you know, 3040% of my time with partners because I wanna build that channel, right? And so it's a skill you need to learn when you're trying to build a massively scalable business. And so, you know, just getting a person that's always been in partnerships sometimes is a little bit dicey. I'd rather find somebody that's done some sales and done some partnerships. They've done it, you know, thoughtfully to build their career.

所以，我认为这个做法很重要。

So, I mean, I think that's important to do.

明白了。这个建议非常棒。那么这是不是你希望早点采取但没做到的策略？

Okay. That's a fantastic one. So that's what you maybe didn't do that you wish you'd done earlier.

有没有哪些做法是你希望当初没做的？对此有什么反思？我觉得我们很多事都做对了。比如国际扩张的时机就把握得很好。你们是什么时候开始国际化的？我们大概是收入突破1亿到2.5亿美元时进入欧洲市场，亚太地区则是在2.5亿美元之后。

What did you do that you wish you hadn't done, and what are the reflections on that? I think we did a lot of stuff right. Like, think when we expanded internationally, I think we did it at kind of the right time. When did you do that? We probably started to do that to EMEA, maybe a 100,000,000 plus, 100 to 250,000,000, and then we were an APJ probably, you know, about 250,000,000 plus.

不过这种扩张必须谨慎规划。

You have to do that thoughtfully though.

关于如何开展国际业务的经验教训多吗？这确实很难。

Any lessons on how to do internationally is much more? It's hard.

是的，很难。因为涉及很多不同方面——你需要转化企业文化、运营手册，还要有可信赖的当地领导团队。我学到的重要一课是要外派部分核心人才。比如我们开拓欧洲市场时，我就抽调了四五个最优秀的年轻销售骨干，让他们去欧洲支援一年。这对他们是宝贵经历，也能帮助当地团队建立业务能力和文化认同。

Yeah. It's hard because, you know, there's a lot of different things. Like you have to translate your culture, your playbook, you have to have leadership there that you trust. One of the big lessons I learned is you wanna transplant some of your talent. So I literally, like when we opened EMEA, took four or five of my, you know, best young hungry sellers and said, okay, you're gonna go to EMEA for a year, it's gonna be a great experience for you, you need to help them build the muscle over there and build the culture over there, right?

我个人也每季度亲自去欧洲督导。亚太地区同样如此——输送现有人才去培养当地文化。你觉得企业国际化最常见的错误是什么？我认为有些人过早扩张，因为这会分散销售领导力和产品研发的注意力。比如进入亚洲市场会遇到新的产品需求或监管要求。

And me personally too, you know, I'm doing multiple trips, one a quarter over there to get that going. Same thing with APJ, like transports some existing talent, talent, helps build the culture, all those kind of things. What do you think are the big mistakes you see people doing when they go international? I think some do it too early because, you know, again, it's gonna spread your focus of your sales leadership, but it's also gonna spread your focus for your product. Like, you're gonna see new requirements come up in Asia or new regulatory requirements depending on where you go.

所以最大错误就是在产品市场匹配度尚未成熟时就冒进。可能因为欧洲有几个客户就仓促布局。但必须考虑团队资源有限性——应该把精力集中在哪？这就是我见过最典型的失误。

So I think the biggest mistake is people go early before they've really got that product market fit because they, you know, hey, they have a couple customers in EMEA, so let's go support them. And now now again, you gotta think about like, you know, I have limited team. You're constrained by your resources. Like, where do you want them focused? So I think that's probably the biggest mistake I see.

我发现人们常过早涉足企业级市场。难点在于销售周期长，短期内难以评估销售代表成效。你如何衡量销售效能？这方面最重要的经验是什么？

I find people go too early into enterprise often. And the hard thing I find with enterprise is the sales cycles mean it's tougher to determine success with reps because they're just longer before you have closure. How do you think about measuring rep effectiveness, and what are your biggest lessons in what it takes to do it well? How do you

判断我是否优秀？针对企业级还是...

know if I'm good? For enterprise or for

任何销售代表？标准有差异吗？

any rep? Does it differ?

销售周期不同会有些微差异。初期我会重点考察两点：管道建设和客户拜访质量。首先要看是否获得有效商机，其次要实地观察——比如这周我到你辖区，如果你只能安排一两个会议，那显然不合格。

I think it does slightly just based on the sales cycle, but How? I think upfront, I'm looking at pipeline and activity. The number one thing I'm gonna look at is this person getting the right meetings, are they building the right pipeline? Gotta make sure I'm inspecting that too. So, you know, early stage sales leader, you're gonna wanna go, hey, I'm in your territory this month for this week, set up as many meetings as you have and if you got one or two meetings, probably don't have a great salesperson.

然后观察客户互动：提问是否专业？客户是否有购买意愿？

Right? So and then you're gonna see them in front of a customer. Do they ask good questions? Does the customer wanna buy from them?

会议数量有标准吗？虽然很细节，但像之前提到的Dagnum说过——人老了记性差——他认为是6到8场。超过这个数就无法充分准备，6到8场是上限。

Is there a right amount of meetings? I know it's really granular, but, like, we mentioned Dagnum before. Dagnum was always like to me, when you get to my age, you know, the memory goes. But he said it's like six or eight, I can't remember what it is, but you can't do more than six or eight because you need to be researched, you need to be informed. Six or eight is the max.

是啊。你同意这个观点吗？

Yeah. Do you agree with that?

要知道，我们每周在酒吧坐五次是最低限度。所以，五到十次可能比较合适，六到八次也不错。这个标准不算差。但再次强调，你得确保准备充分。这和其他运动没什么两样。

You know, we sit at the bar at, five a week is kind of the minimum. So, you know, five to ten is probably right, and that's six to eight. That's not a bad metric. But, again, you do wanna make sure you're prepared. It's just like any other sport.

好的。

Okay.

那就按每周五次来算吧。每周五次，每月二十次。对。

So you have five let's just roll with this. Have five a week, 20 a month. Yeah.

你们有预期的成交率吗？我正在建立机会渠道。对吧？所以这些里面至少25%应该转化为某种机会，然后我会跟进这些机会。根据不同的组织情况，成交率会有所不同，比如我如何争取预算这类问题？

Do you have like an expected close rate? I'm building opportunities. Right? So at least 25% of those should turn into some kind of opportunity, and now I'm gonna work that opportunity. And, you know, they're gonna close at different rates depending on that organization, how can I get budget, things of that nature?

你们

Do you

会担心设定可能被钻空子的目标吗？我的意思是，比如你说‘哈里，我要开20场会议’，然后为了凑数，筛选标准就降低了。你怎么看待设定无法被钻空子的有效目标？

worry about setting goals that can be played? And what I mean by that is you're like, Harry, I want 20 meetings. I'm like, okay, 20 meetings. And my qualification process, shoot, goes down. How do you think about effective goal setting which can't be played?

最终我会看到销售管道和成交结果。但你说得对，这有延迟。可能有六、十二甚至十八个月的滞后。所以一线经理和销售主管特别重要——我会亲自评估那些会议质量。

Eventually, I'm gonna see pipeline and closures. But you're right. There's a delay. There's a six, twelve, maybe eighteen month delay on that. But that's why the first line manager and the sales leader is so important because I'm gonna go assess those meetings myself.

再想想看，团队需要投手和击球手。或者捕手和击球手？板球的话应该是投球手和击球手吧。

Again, if you think about it, you need pitchers and batters. Right? So or catchers and batters. I don't know what, you know, I guess for cricket here you need. Bowlers and batsmen.

对，投球手和击球手。所以我们

Yeah. Bowlers and batters. So We

在这个国家没打过圆场棒球。

didn't play rounders in this country.

我知道。我知道。但我是棒球运动员。所以如果你想想看，那些练习，就像我刚开始时那样，就是尽可能多地安排会议。直接进去说，哦，我们正在和强生谈合作。

I know. I know. But I'm a baseball player. So if you think about it, the reps, like when I was first there, was like, just get me as many meetings as you can. Just put in there and be like, oh, we're working a deal with J and J.

他们会问，你想见谁？我说，任何有强生邮箱的人。因为我能评估，比如这个人有没有影响力，有没有机会，我该如何在这个组织中周旋？所以，作为领导者，要多参加会议。

They're like, who do you wanna meet with? I was like, anyone with a J and J email address. Because I'll be able to assess, like, is that person got juice, you know, is there an opportunity, how do I navigate the organization? So again, go take as many meetings as a leader.

抱歉。你会加入那个电话并让他们主导？是的。好的。所以你不是主导那个电话的人？

I'm sorry. You will join that call and let them run it? Yep. Okay. So you are not running that call?

没错。而你只是旁听

Correct. And you sit in

是的。

Yep.

你只是听着？

And you just listen?

对。只要进展顺利就行。好的。如果不顺利，我会介入并尝试帮忙

Yeah. As long as it's going well. Okay. And if it's not going well, I'm gonna step in and try to help and

什么情况下会不顺利？取决于

Where does it not go well? Depends on

销售代表的准备情况，他们是否在提问？你知道，当你想到什么是成功的销售会议时，我们甚至还没谈到销售的基本要素。比如，我是否建立了某种融洽关系？他们信任我吗？我是否引起了兴趣？我是否发现了挑战？

the rep, their preparation, are they asking questions? You know, when you think about what's a successful sales meeting, we haven't even talked about that, like the basics of selling, It's like, have I generated some rapport? Do they trust me? Have I generated interest? Have I identified challenges?

我是否达成了目标？我这次会议的目标是什么？是为了争取一次X会议？是为了获得概念验证？还是为了引荐某人？

And have I driven to an objective? What was the objective of my meeting? Was it to get an X meeting? Was it get a POC? Was it get an introduction to somebody?

所以你需要对所有这些有个规划。你得研究公司背景、商业机会、交谈对象，查看他们的领英资料。一场成功的会议离不开充分准备。就像任何运动项目，你练习的时间至少是正式比赛的十倍。如果你要开一个一小时的会议，你

So you need to have a game plan on all that. So you've had to research the company, the opportunity, the people you're talking to, their LinkedIn profiles. So a good meeting is somebody who really is prepared. Again, it's like, any sport, you practice 10 x more at least than you play. So if you have a one hour meeting, you

就该花十小时准备。真有意思。有个尤塞恩·博尔特的采访特别精彩。他说自己训练十年只为九秒的辉煌。

should be preparing for it ten hours. So funny. There's a Usain Bolt interview, is amazing. Yeah. And he says, trained ten years for nine seconds.

没错，就是这样。

Yeah. There you go.

完全正确。天啊，这比例太糟糕了。真是糟糕透顶的比例。

Exactly. Sorry. Fuck me. That's a bad ratio. That's a really bad ratio.

想想奥运会。这些人训练一辈子，胜负就在瞬息之间，对吧？

Yeah. I mean, think about the Olympics. Right? Like, these people train their whole lives and it's over in a split second. Right?

所以

So

说真的，难以置信。回到如何开好会议的话题，你这样的分析让我受益匪浅。虽然问这个可能显得肤浅，但你觉得建立融洽关系有什么有效方法？

Honestly, unbelievable. Going back to that what what it takes to do good meeting, I'm so glad you broke it down that way. Yeah. I know it's kind of facile of me to ask, but what do you find works in building rapport?

就是要了解对方。要对他们的背景保持求知欲，

I mean, get to know somebody. Right? Like, be intellectually curious about their background and

但我发现套路化的方式行不通。当感觉对方在对我用套路时，反而会破坏融洽感。作为采访者，我的工作也是建立信任，要让对方感到安全。比如当我觉得'这人不是来刁难我的，他是开放包容的'，我甚至会聊起我母亲患多发性硬化症这种事，因为这样会让人觉得'我在真正了解这个人'。

But I find a playbook. When I feel like someone's running a playbook on me, it doesn't build rapport. And so, like, for me, my job as an interviewer is to build rapport too, but to make someone feel safe. And, like, you know what? He's not here to get me, and he's open to and so I'll talk about my mother having MS or anything like that because you're like, oh, I feel like I'm getting to know this guy.

是啊，稍微展现一点脆弱。对，对，就是这样。

Yeah. Be a little bit vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

有什么关于建立融洽关系的经验可以分享吗？而不是那种‘哦，你在世界哪个角落？伦敦在下雨啊’之类的寒暄。我是...

Any lessons for you on, like, how you build rapport rather than, oh, whereabouts are you in the world? Oh, it's rainy in London. I'm

绝对不聊天气的人。通常我会问，你在哪里长大的？你对什么感兴趣？你家人怎么样？我是说，得从小话题开始。

definitely not a weather talker. Normally, usually talk about, you know, where did you grow up? What are you interested in? What are your family? I mean, you gotta start small.

总不能一上来就问‘有没有患癌经历可以聊聊’之类的吧？那太野蛮了。不过说到底，重点是如何了解一个人，对吧？我觉得很多人深受成长环境和家庭影响。

You can't be like, oh, do you have any cancers we can talk about or anything? But like That's a savage stuff. No. But again, it's like, you know, how do you, how do you try to get to know somebody, right, get to know about them? I think a lot of people are influenced by where they grew up, their families.

所以我喜欢问这些，因为家庭对多数人来说都极其重要，我想了解...

Like, I like to ask about that because I think a lot of people are like, you know, family's super important thing, so I wanna get to

这方面的情况。你发现有人会谎称自己是采购决策者吗？毕竟你想确认他们是否有预算权限。是否遇到过夸大自己在公司地位的人？

know about that. Do you find people lie about being a buyer? Because you wanna know if they have budget and if they're the buyer. Do you find that people overinflate their own status within companies?

听着，我从不直接问‘你有预算吗’。经验告诉我迟早会知道答案。但说实话，每个人都希望显得重要。

I mean, listen. I'd never ask somebody, do have budget? I'm experienced enough to know what's gonna happen. I'm gonna get that information eventually. But, like, listen, everybody wants to be important.

那就让他们感觉重要。他们能坐在那个位置就说明有决策权。我经手过数十亿美元的软件交易和上千笔交易，很清楚组织运作方式。我的职责是教他们获取价值，我会问‘需要做价值论证吗？流程是怎样的？’

So, like, let them be important. The reason they have in that position is because they have some decision authority. You know, I've done literally billions of dollars of software deals and thousands of deals, right? I kinda know how organizations work and I'm there to teach how to get value and I'll ask questions like, oh, do you have to do a value case for this? You know, how does that work?

审批流程如何？谁有采购权？建立信任后，才能深入探讨如何在组织内推进。但前提是你必须先提供价值。

How does that process work? You know, who has to approve that? Who has buying authority? Like, you know, once you've established rapport, you can get, you know, a lot more deeper on that kind of information on how to navigate the organization. But you you can't really have that discussion until you've added value.

你认为AI会如何改变销售流程？目前有在使用什么AI工具吗？比如...

How does AI change the sales process, you think? Do you use any AI tools today in the sense

哦，我们确实在用。是的，我们使用Perplexity和Glean。实际上我们还开发了自己的AI工具，比如一个销售AI助手。

of Oh, we do. Yeah. We use Perplexity. We use Glean. We actually built some of our own AI, like a sales AI assistant.

我们的销售AI助手可以这样用：比如问'如何从微软获得本地迁移的资金支持？'，它就能直接告诉你流程。我们用Perplexity做大量前期客户调研，了解客户如何运用数据和AI。

Our sales AI assistant, if we're like, hey, how do I get funding for an on prem migration from Microsoft? You can just ask and it'll tell you the process on that. We use Perplexity. We'll do a lot of our upfront account research. Tell me, you know, how this customer uses data and AI.

他们会如何最大化Databricks的价值？这类信息很丰富。然后我们的销售助手会整合这些对话数据和客户资料——比如显示他们在这里有业务增长，在这个产品上有投入，正在推进某个项目，或者新闻显示他们对网络安全感兴趣等等。AI能真正加速所有这些调研让你更专业。

How would they get the most value out of Databricks? You know, lot of information on that. And then our sales assistant will actually take that data or take that conversational stuff along with like our account data, right? Like it'll say, oh, they've been growing here, they've been spending on this product, they're working on this initiative, oh, I also see in the press, they're interested in cyber security, stuff like that, right? So you can use AI to really accelerate all that research and get smarter.

因为你对客户了解得越深入，就越能提出有趣的问题，从而找到创造价值的切入点。

Because, again, the smarter you are on that customer, the more interesting questions you're gonna be able to ask to try to find an area you can add value.

所以这是销售流程的内容准备工作。那么对外推广方面，我们是否会看到AI取代人工进行邮件推广，而不是让传统推广方式消亡？

So content preparation for the sales process. Yep. In terms of outbound, will we see outbound not die but be replaced by AI in terms of email outbound literally being done by AI?

我不确定会完全取代，但确实认为AI比人类更擅长外联工作，因为它能更快掌握有效方法。就像我早期做的潜在客户开发日——如果让机器人去联系邀约会议，它学习有效策略的速度会比人类团队快得多。当然，这些都需要基于有效数据。

I don't know if completely replace it, but certainly I think outbound stuff, the AI is actually better at it than humans, in my opinion, because it'll also learn what works faster. Right? Like that whole iteration process I did early on with, hey, everybody's gonna do prospecting day. If I start setting up a bot to try to ping people to get meetings, it's gonna learn what works and what doesn't work faster than I can get a team of humans together. Now, that being said, like, you wanna learn that, but it needs to be informed.

不过我认为人类角色无法被完全替代。

Right? I don't think you can completely replace humans there.

另外在无限量外联的世界里，其价值会不会贬值？如果知道联系你的是AI，价值感不就降低了吗？我还没深入思考过这个问题，早期阶段嘛，不过你可能是对的。

Also, a world of infinite outbound, does value of it not go down? If you know that you're being outreached by an AI, does the value of that not go down? I don't know. I haven't thought about it. Still early days, but you're probably right.

我是说，即便是现在...

I mean, even now, like,

你现在每天收到多少邮件和LinkedIn消息？ literally上千条对吧？那么哪些能让你优先查看甚至同意会面？很大程度上取决于品牌形象、信息内容、市场动态，以及你对对方公司的了解程度。

I mean, how many emails and LinkedIn posts do you get? It's literally thousands. Right? Like, so which ones kinda go to the front of your box where you even take a meeting, right? A lot of it's gonna have to do with your brand and your message and, you know, what's happening in the market and how much you know about their company, right?

就像我说的，我认为AI能做到的是，如果我真正了解那个人、那家公司内部的情况，你说得对。可能需要人类来赋予人情味，但它很可能会提供内容，更好地激发他们的潜在兴趣。对吧？

Like, again, that's what I think AI can do is if I really know what's going on inside that person, inside that company, you're right. You might need a human to actually put a human touch to it, but it's probably gonna give you the content to get them potentially interested better. Right?

五年后你们的销售代表会增多还是减少？

Will you have more or less sales reps in five years time?

重申一下，只要是人类在购买软件，我认为就需要人类来销售软件。所以我们肯定会用AI提高效率，但我们会大规模招聘，因为我们要大展拳脚。我回答得对吗？

Again, as long as humans are buying software, I think you need humans to sell software. So we definitely use AI to become more efficient, but we're gonna hire quite a few folks because we're gonna go big. Did I answer that correctly?

对，回答得很好。当你回顾公司不同发展阶段时，哪个阶段最艰难？可以分成比如——不知道怎么说——1000万、1亿、10亿及更高。

Yeah. You did. Brilliant. When you look at the different stages of the company, what was the hardest? You can break it up into, like, don't know, 1,000, a a 100, a billion, billion and beyond.

哪个阶段最难？

Which was the hardest?

每个阶段都有不同挑战。从零到1000万对我来说可能是最有趣的。虽然艰难，但我觉得我能向任何人卖出1000万的东西。懂我意思吗？只要弄清楚他们想买什么就行。

They all have different challenges. The zero to 10 for me was probably the most fun. It was tough, but I was like, I can sell $10,000,000 of something to literally anyone. You know what I mean? Like, all I have to do is figure out what they wanna buy.

从1000万到1亿的扩张相当艰难，因为这时你初步验证了产品市场匹配度，但要真正进入企业级市场，开始获得可背书的客户，让他们为你发声。这个阶段我确实很享受。而从1亿到10亿时，你要引入合作伙伴和分销渠道，扩大销售团队规模，这时就进入规模化阶段了。我们去年刚做到30亿，几年后应该能达到100亿，现在处于超高速增长期，面临的又是另一套挑战。

That 10 to a 100,000,000 is pretty tough scale because now you got a little bit of product market fit, but now you really have to get into like that enterprise motion, start getting referenceable customers, get them to speak about you. I really enjoyed that phase for sure. Then the 100 to a billion, now you're getting partners involved, distribution channels, you're scaling the sales organization, so now it's, you know, you're getting to the scaling function. You know, we just did 3,000,000,000 last year, you know, I think we'll be 10,000,000,000 in a few years. So, you know, now you're in hyperscale and, you know, a different set of challenges.

每个阶段我都喜欢，因为各有不同。我认为1000万到1亿是最难的之一。现在那些AI领域的超速成长公司，轻松突破1亿。有些公司真的做得非常出色。

So each one I've enjoyed because they're different. I think the 10 to a 100 is one of the hardest things. Now the hyperscalers in AI, they're like blowing through a 100,000,000. Right? Like some of these companies, they're crushing it.

你最看好哪家？

Which one are you most impressed by?

我觉得Cursor非常厉害，他们增长速度快得惊人。我自己就用AI做工程和编程，他们表现很突出。当然，能否持续这种势头还有待观察。

I think Cursor's super impressive. I think they're growing crazy fast. Like I use AI for engineering and coding. They're doing really well. So, I mean, we'll see, you know, if they can sustain it.

我希望他们能做到，不过，他们正在做的事情确实非常令人印象深刻。

I hope they can, but, it's, you know, super impressive what they're doing for sure.

你知道，你一直在与Snowflake竞争。是的。关于如何在竞争中销售，你最大的经验教训是什么？如今每个领域都有竞争。这是我今天投资学到的最重要的事情之一。

You you know, you have been in a fight against the snowflake. Yeah. What are your biggest lessons on selling against competition? Everyone has competition today. It's one of the biggest things I've learned today investing Yeah.

过去你可能只有两三个竞争对手，比如Databricks和Snowflake。现在每个领域都有15个竞争对手。是的。对于创始人来说，在竞争激烈的市场中销售，你最大的经验是什么？

Is that before you used to have two or three competitors, Databrace and Snowflake, say. Now there's 15 competitors for everything. Yeah. What are your biggest lessons for founders on how to sell in competitive market?

首先，你需要竞争，否则就没有市场。对吧？尤其是在早期。如果没有其他人进入你的市场，那还有什么意义？我不认为会有15家公司能在这个领域存活下来。

So first of all, you need competition, otherwise, you don't have a market. Right? Especially early days. If nobody else is selling into your market, like, you know, what's the point? I don't think there's 15 companies that'll survive in it.

传统观点认为会有三家公司。有三个云服务商。会有三个AI领域的玩家。我认为数据和AI领域可能只有一家公司Databricks，但很可能会有三家。

You know, the traditional thing is there's three companies. There's three clouds. There'll be three AI players. You know, I think there'll only be one data and AI player Databricks, but there'll probably be three.

其他每个市场，市场，都是三家。

Every other market, market, three.

我的市场，一家。一家。我们会赢。我们会碾压所有人。不。

Mine, one. One. We'll win. We'll crush everyone. No.

但我觉得听着。最大的玩家会占据80%的市场。对吧？其他的，你知道，分剩下的部分。

But I think listen. And the biggest player gets 80% of the market. Right? And the other ones, you know, get the rest.

在消费领域是这样。在企业级市场，企业级市场，往往往往恰恰相反。相反。市场分布往往更加分散。

In consumer, that's the case. In enterprise, enterprise, it it tends tends to to be be the the opposite. Opposite. It tends to be much more distributed.

我没见过这种情况。我是说，看看Salesforce。看看ServiceNow。

I haven't seen that. I mean, look at Salesforce. Look at ServiceNow.

我是说，当你看到云服务时，就会想到AWS。

I mean, you look at cloud and you're like AWS.

云服务分布更均匀些，尽管GCP（谷歌云）你仍会说它算是遥遥落后的第三名对吧？但AWS和Azure几乎并驾齐驱，那是场激烈较量。回到关于Snowflake竞争的问题，对我们来说，有个促使你进步的对手其实是好事。我骨子里充满竞争意识——毕竟我是运动员出身，做销售就是因为热爱竞争。

Cloud's a little bit more even distributed, although GCP, you'd still say it's kind of a distant third, right? But AWS and Azure kinda neck and neck, that's a big battle. Getting back to the competition snowflake question for us, like, it's kinda good to have somebody that's trying to make you better. And I'm ultra competitive, right? Like I'm an athlete, so like the reason I do sales is because I love competition, right?

他们落后多少？

How far behind are they?

在我看来至少五年以上。要知道，早期押注未来时——我们押注AI、押注湖仓一体、押注开源，他们现在才刚涉足这些领域。看看数据：我们增长率是他们的三倍，二月份完成了50次Snowflake向Databricks的迁移，这些客户都是他们的前十名，我们在那个市场表现相当出色。创始人在技术赌注和研发上的明智投资确保了我们遥遥领先。

Five plus years in my opinion. You know, bet on the future early days. We bet on AI, we bet on the lake house, we bet on open source, they're just dipping their toe into that. And if you look at it too, right, we're three times their growth rate, done February 50, Snowflake the Databricks migrations, they're their top 10, like, you know, we're doing pretty well in that market. So I think we're the future and the founders made some really smart investments in technology bets in r and d to make sure we're well ahead of them.

所以我们会持续投入。保持私有化也很棒——我们可以超额投入研发和销售。

And so we'll continue to invest. It's great being private too, right? We get to, you know, overinvest in r and d, overinvest in sales.

你认为私有化带来的优势是他们无法企及的吗？

Do you think you've benefited from being private in a way that they haven't had the luxury

优势巨大。我们认为市场尚处早期，就像棒球比赛第二局刚开始。

of being private? It's massive. Right? We think it's early in the market. I say it's top of the second inning.

只要能持续将资金注入创新、研发、销售和渠道，我们就能夺取更多市场份额，进一步拉开差距。

And so if we can continue to pour money into innovation and r and d and, know, sales and distribution, you know, we're gonna grab, you know, more market share and, again, get further ahead of them.

是否有尚未充分投入的领域，未来希望加大投资？

Have you not spent or have not spent as much that you would like to spend more of in the future?

实际上我们品牌建设已卓有成效。虽然已增加品牌投入，但早期本该更重视营销和品牌。现在我想进一步发力合作伙伴——今年将投入2亿美元支持合作伙伴项目，但在合作伙伴培训和渠道建设上我还想投入更多。

Actually, our brand's gotten really good now. As we started to spend more on brand, I think we should have done more of that early. Marketing and brand. I wanna press even more on partners. You know, we'll fund 200,000,000 in projects to partners this year, but I would spend even more in partners and distribution training.