20VC：Lovable CEO Anton Osika谈7个月实现1.2亿美元年经常性收入 | AI初创企业防御性与单位经济性的真实剖析 | 基础模型现状：长期看好Grok，短期看空OpenAI，原因何在 | Replit、Lovable与Bolt之争：后续走向

大学并非最佳的学习场所。无论你学什么专业都无关紧要。我会投资Grok并可能做空Anthropic，因为不。我之前在做空OpenAI。

University is not the best place to learn. It doesn't matter what you're studying. I'd invest in grok and probably short anthropic because no. I was I was short open airing.

你为什么要买入Grok并做空OpenAI？

Why would you buy that grok and short open airing?

我认为更关键的是Grok团队的发展势头。他们正在做一件我非常敬佩的事——为数据整理环节招募狂热信徒。团队士气极高。而OpenAI已经深陷各种混乱，对吧？

I think it's more the slope on the Grok team. They have they're doing something which I respect a lot, which is to hire missionaries for the data curation part. Morale is super high. OpenAI has gone through all this mess. Right?

是否会出现一个尚未诞生的领先模型？

There will be a leading model that has not been created yet?

是的。来自中国。你担心中国吗？

Yes. From China. Do you worry about China?

我认为他们有五成概率会研发出最优秀的模型。未来某个时点我们都会使用中国模型，这确实让我有些忧虑。

I do think there's, a fifty fifty chance they will have the best model. They will be using a Chinese model at some point, and that makes me a bit concerned.

这里是Harry Stebbings主持的《20 VC》。本期节目将聚焦全球增长最快的公司。我们专程前往斯德哥尔摩采访挚友Anton Ossica——Lovable联合创始人兼CEO。Lovable在短短七个月内实现了从零到1.2亿美元年经常性收入的飞跃。

This is 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbings. Now the show state is with the fastest growing company on the planet. We traveled to Stockholm for this interview. It's with a dear friend, Anton Ossica, cofounder and CEO of Lovable. Now Lovable has scaled from zero to a 120,000,000 in annual recurring revenue in just seven months.

令人惊叹的是，他们还从顶级机构Excel、Creandum以及20 VC等筹集了超过2亿美元资金。我听过Anton的所有访谈，但这次他回答了许多前所未见的问题。这是档风格迥异的节目，制作过程充满乐趣。

Incredible to see. They've also raised over $200,000,000 from some of the best, Excel, Creandum, and, of course, 20 VC. And I've heard every show that Anton's done. He answers questions here that he's never answered before. This is a very different style of show, and it was such a joy to make happen.

正式进入节目前，我想说很欣慰看到团队齐心协力促成这期节目。但我不喜欢的是要同时追踪数十个平台、产品和工具中的信息、数据及项目。因此我们使用Coda——这个帮助全球5万团队协同工作的全能协作平台。它兼具文档的灵活性与电子表格的结构化，能促进深度协作与快速创新。其开箱即用的AI解决方案Coda Brain更是颠覆性突破。

But before we dive into the show's stay, I love seeing the team come together to make this show happen. What I don't love is trying to keep track of all information, the data, and the projects that we're working on across dozens of platforms, products, and tools. That's why we use Coda, the all in one collaborative workspace that's helped 50,000 teams all over the world get on the same page. Offering the flexibility of docs with the structure of spreadsheets, Coda facilitates deeper teamwork and quicker creativity. And their turnkey AI solution, the intelligence of Coda Brain, is a game changer.

依托Grammarly技术支持，Coda正进入创新扩张新阶段，旨在重新定义AI时代的生产力。无论你是需要灵活管理混乱的初创公司，还是寻求更好协同的成熟企业，Coda都能适配你的工作方式。其无缝工作空间可连接Salesforce、Jira、Asana和Figma等数百种常用工具，帮助团队优化流程并提速增效。立即访问coda.i0/20vc，初创公司可免费获得团队版六个月使用权。记住是coda.i0/20vc，免费享团队版半年服务。

Powered by Grammarly, Coda is entering a new phase of innovation and expansion aiming to redefine productivity for the AI era. Whether you're a start up looking to organize the chaos while staying nimble or an enterprise organization looking for better alignment, Coda matches your working style. Its seamless workspace connects to hundreds of your favorite tools, including Salesforce, Jira, Asana, and Figma, helping your teams transform their rituals and do more faster. Head over to coda.i0/20vc right now and get six months off the team plan for startups for free. That's coda, c0da,.i0/20vc, and get six months off the team plan for free.

Coda.i0/20vc。虽然Coda让我们的团队保持敏锐，但AngelList让我们的基金更加犀利。如果你在收听20VC，就知道我们有着极高的标准。AngelList是顶级风投基金使用的现代平台，超过40%的顶尖捐赠基金和银行都是其有限合伙人。他们的客户包括一家前五的风投公司——20VC，而且现在平台上管理的资产高达1710亿美元。

Coda.i0/20vc. And while Coda keeps our team sharp, AngelList keeps our fund sharper. If you're listening to 20 v c, you know we have a really freaking high bar. Well, AngelList is the modern platform used by the best in class venture funds where over 40% of top endowments and banks are LPs. Their customers include a top five venture firm, 20 VC, and they now have, check this out, a $171,000,000,000 of assets on the platform.

他们将一体化软件平台与专属服务团队结合，行动速度与你同步。有位经理给出精彩评价：‘AngelList就像我基金的延伸。’另一位说：‘AngelList让我彻底安心，他们对细节的关注、闪电般的响应速度，以及团队真正的责任感，正是我不再为后台运营操心的原因。’所以如果你要成立新基金，别犯傻，直接用AngelList。

They combine an all in one software platform with a dedicated service team that moves as fast as you do. One manager said this awesome quote, AngelList feels like an extension of my fund. Another said, AngelList gives me total peace of mind, the attention to detail, lightning fast response time, and just real sense of ownership from the team are exactly what I need to stop worrying about back office ops. So if you're starting a new fund, don't be a moron. Just use AngelList.

他们太棒了。访问angellist.com/20vc了解更多。当你正确设立基金后，就该确保你的初创品牌同样出色。这是给所有科技创始人的——你终于想出完美的公司名，结果查.com域名时发现，该死，被占用了。

They're incredible. Head over to angellist.com/20vc to learn more. And once you've set up your fund the right way, it's time to make sure your startup's brand looks just as sharp. This one's for all you tech founders out there. You finally come up with the perfect name for your startup, then you check the.com and, damn, it's taken.

要么被闲置，要么标着帕洛阿尔托的天价租金。于是你妥协用额外字母、奇怪拼写。但嘿，现在有了.techdomains，你无需妥协。在.tech上获得你真正想要的初创名字，绝不将就。

Parked, unused, or priced rent in Palo Alto. So you settle with extra letters, weird spellings, whatever it takes. But, hey, you don't have to compromise because now there's finally a domain for tech founders like you, .techdomains. Get the startup name you actually want on .tech. No compromises.

更重要的是，使用.tech域名能向客户和投资者传递你在打造科技产品的信号，仅通过域名就能实现。这不够酷吗？如果你已有心仪名称，现在就在GoDaddy等可信平台用.tech搜索，或访问get.tech/20vc注册。

What's more, when you use .tech, you signal to your customers and investors that you're building tech with just your domain name. Isn't that cool? So if you've got a name in mind, search for it now with .tech on a trusted platform like GoDaddy or visit get.tech/20vc to grab it.

您已到达目的地。安东，兄弟，能亲自来这里我太兴奋了。

You have now arrived at your destination. Anton, dude, I'm so excited to be here with you in person.

非常感谢你加入我的节目

Thank you so much for joining me on

很高兴见到你，伊森。谢谢你来斯德哥尔摩。

the show. It's great to see you, Ethan. Thanks for coming to Stockholm.

兄弟，来斯德哥尔摩太棒了。我想先问——你刚完成一轮出色融资。我们看到大量资金涌入这个领域。首先想确认：这是场资本军备竞赛，谁钱多谁赢，还是另有玄机？

Dude, it's great to be in Stockholm. I wanna start. You just recently raised a great round. We're seeing a lot of money going to the space. And I just wanted to start with, is it a capital arms race per case of who has the most money wins, or is it something else?

我认为是组建最佳团队的军备竞赛，其次是建立最佳品牌和用户信任的竞赛。资本当然有帮助。对我们而言，资金完全不是限制——如果你在构建顶级基础模型可能例外，因为训练算力等成本极高。但对我们来说，关键是极速推进并汇聚顶尖人才。

I think it's an arms race to build the best team, and then it's an arm race to build the best brand and trust from your users. And I mean, capital can help. For us, it's not a constraint at all. If you're building something like the best foundation model, it might be a constraint just because the compute for training and so on is so large, but for us, it's all about moving extremely fast and collecting the best talent.

因此，如果我们把人才视为首要因素，我们已看到扎克像NFL那样支付巨额合同，为顶尖人才开出天价。你如何看待并分析这一现象，以及未来获取顶尖人才的难度会有多大？

So if we think about talent as the number one there, we've seen Zuck pay NFL style contracts, mega mega sums for the best people. How do you think about and analyze that and how difficult it will be to get the best talent moving forwards?

我认为对我来说，比扎克更难判断哪些工程师能真正蓬勃发展、推动文化进步、推动我们的工作方式和产品发展。对扎克而言，就像有这10个人精通如何训练基础模型，他更多是为这些知识而非人才本身买单。这些人才本身已经非常优秀，可能也确实相当出色。

I think for me, it's actually more difficult than for Tzak to know who which engineers are going to really thrive, push the culture forward, push the ways that we're working in the products forward. For Sakhi, it's like there's these 10 people that know everything about how to train foundation models, and he's more paying for that knowledge than for these people. The talent itself is so good. It's probably it's pretty good as well.

你是否认为在应用层工作时，不需要同等级别的工程人才？

Do you think you do not need the same caliber of engineering talent if you're working in the application layer?

情况截然不同。比如我团队里那些扎克招聘的人，他们在做我们的事情时表现不会像我团队的工程师那么好。这是完全不同类型的人才。如果我知道该雇佣哪些完美工程师，或许可以提高我们的薪酬范围来精准吸引他们。但问题是我不知道谁是最佳人选。

You just did very different. I think like I first, one of those people, Saki's hiring, they wouldn't perform as well as as engineers in my team doing what we're doing. So it's it's a very different type of talent. And if I knew who was like the perfect engineers to hire, I could maybe step up our our like our compensation bands to get exactly those. But but I don't know who are the best people.

所以我需要弄清楚：这些人是否真的非常适合共事？他们是否可塑性强？能否在团队中良好协作？然后在此基础上提供高于市场水平的薪酬。

So I need to just like figure out, are these really, really good people to work with? Are they moldable? Are they going to work well together in this team? And then and give, like, the compensation that you give on the top of market compensation rates for that.

你打造了一支非凡的团队，早期还发掘了不太显眼的人才，后来还聘用了像埃琳娜·维纳这样的超级明星。在审视你的招聘流程和人才评估时，有什么不寻常的标准吗？比如对我来说，我会寻找经历过极端创伤或有极端受虐倾向的人。

You've built an incredible team. Also, like, a less obvious talent in the early days, and then you hire amazing rock stars like Elena Verner. When you look at your hiring process, your talent assessment process, is there anything that's non obvious? So, like, for us, I look for people who have either extreme trauma or extreme masochism. Yes.

说正经的，我认为有主见的人太少了。你说品牌很重要，伟大的品牌都有鲜明立场，让人要么爱要么恨。

And being serious, I think not enough people are opinionated. You said brand is important. Great brands are opinionated. People love them or hate them. Lovable.

很好的例子。但你在招聘或人才评估方面有什么不寻常的标准？

Good good example. But what is yours that is non obvious about hiring or talent assessment?

我喜欢考虑成长斜率。如果与某人交谈时我能学到很多，对话充满活力且令人兴奋，这通常预示着他们能快速适应组织且成长斜率会很高。此外，了解他们过去的表现也很重要——如果能用摄像机记录他们之前的工作状态，会获得很多信号。这就是我面试候选人时花大量时间考察的。

I like to think a little about slope. If I talk to someone and I learn a lot of things talking from them and I notice that my conversation is like very dynamic and exciting, that is usually feels like a very good indicator that they're going to adapt to the organization and their slope will be very high. Otherwise, there are good ways to just understand how did they perform. Like, if I could be there with a video camera when they worked in the past, that gives me a lot of signals. That's usually what I spend a lot of time when I'm talking to new candidates.

说到成长斜率，老兄，你的变化非常明显。我们相识时间不算长，但对比初次见面和现在，你的领导力已截然不同。在哪些方面你还没达到自己期望的进步？

When you think about a slope, it's noticeable with you, dude. Like, we haven't known each other for a huge amount of time. But when I compare when I first met you to when I meet you today, it is still very different in terms of your leadership. Where have you not progressed where you would like to still?

尽管Lovable目前处于较后期的增长阶段，我仍以非常草根、初创的方式运营它。我正在考虑在某些关键领域增加一些结构，以提升运营水平或开始成为优秀的运营者。其中的乐趣在于——

I still operate Lovable in a very scrappy, startup y way, even though we're, like, at the later growth stage right now. Adding a bit more structure in, like, in a few key areas is somewhere I'm looking to progress or to start being an excellent operator in. The joys of

这个节目和我们的友谊让我们能进行讨论，而非像来回问答的采访。你觉得你真的需要那些结构吗？创始人模式被如此广泛传播和赞美，像Jensen直接管理52个下属那样贴近一线，我认为中层结构正是滋生迟缓与冷漠的温床。确实如此。

this show and being friends is we can have a discussion, not like a one back and forth interview. Do you think you actually need that? We've had founder mode be so propagated and praised, and being close to the metal, Jensen having 52 direct reports, I would say structure in that middle layer is where slowness and apathy comes. True. Yep.

你认为你需要那些结构吗？

Do you think you need that?

这是个好问题。我始终会以创始人模式发挥主要影响力，但鉴于各种事务从四面八方涌来，我确实需要一个能建立优先顺序的保护层。这最终取决于一个运转良好的组织体系，而这样的组织需要顶层有位极具条理的管理者。我本人不打算担任这个角色，而是会聚集优秀的领导者来负责组织工作。

That's a good question. I I'm going to always operate with this with most of my impact coming from, like, founder mode, but I do need given that there's so many things thrown at me and coming in from all the different directions to have kind of a protective layer that introduces a lot of order in like how do you prioritize all these incoming things. And that comes down to a well running organization. And then you for a well running organization, you need a very organized manager somewhere at the top. And I'm not planning to be that manager myself, but surround myself with great leaders who who do more of the organization.

你有这样的保护层吗？因为我——

Do you have a protective layer to say? Because I

每周大概会收到25个介绍请求

get probably 25 intro requests for

而你每周

you a week,

可能只接受一个。你有专人负责筛选吗？

and I probably make one a month. Do you have someone who does filter?

有的。这是个奇妙而混乱的协同保护层，我没有特定名称，就是那些与我紧密合作的伙伴们。

I do. Yeah. And and they say it's a kind of a wonderful chaotic protective layer that works together as a team. I don't really have like a name for it. It's just the people working closely with me.

团队由曾担任创始人的多面手组成，我们通过快速反馈协作：'这不该做''那该优先'。目前运作尚可，但还能做得更好。

So the team is made up of previous founder type generalists that work closely with me and I work in terms of like quick feedback. This is not what we should be doing. This is what we should be doing. Works okay now. I think we can do even better.

你说过人才是第一位的，品牌是第二位的。

You said talent was number one and brand was number two.

如果我们思考伟大的品牌，对你来说伟大的品牌意味着什么？一个非常具体的例子是苹果生态系统，他们可能过于执着于细节以至于行动缓慢，但正是这种执着建立了信任，形成了非常强大的品牌。这也是我们在每次互动中追求的目标，比如每次产品更新时，如何确保我们推出产品的方式能真正理解用户，以及他们对我们在产品和公司中快速变化的所有事物的反应。

If we think about great brand, what does great brand mean to you? A super concrete example is the Apple ecosystem where they obsess about details maybe too much so they move slowly, but that's what builds up trust and is a very strong brand. That's what we're aiming for as well in every interaction, like every time we update the product, how do we make sure we roll it out so that we really understand the users and how their reactions to all the things we're changing very rapidly in in the product, in the company.

有几个问题是每个人都会提出的，他们会把这些作为对Lovable或该领域任何人的批评。一个是保护防御性。当你今天思考防御性时，品牌是防御性的核心要素吗，还是有什么是人们没有看到的？

There's a couple of questions which everyone has where they will kind of throw them as a critique at Lovable or at anyone in the space. One is protection defensibility. When you think about defensibility today, is brand the core element of defensibility, or is there something that people do not see?

不。我认为如果你想最大限度地防御，你需要建立一个产品，在这个产品和产品所在的平台上，你不想离开，因为你在平台上创造了太多价值，每天都能自动获得。这就是Lovable正在成为的产品构建平台，今天的Lovable是你的技术联合创始人。我们想成为你的联合创始人，处理所有的行政事务，设置你的财务运营。但如果你在这样的平台上，你可能不想离开。

No. I think you need to build a product if you want to, like, maximally defend be defensive, where if you are on this product and the platform that the product is, you don't want to live because you have so much value that you've created on the platform that you're getting automatically every day. So that's what Lovable is becoming in this product building platform where Lovable today is your technical co founder. We wanted to be your co founder in general that handles all the admin, setting up your finance operations. But if you're on a platform like that, you you probably don't want want to live.

你会对所有今天开始构建AI的创始人说，不要担心防御性。它会随着时间的推移而来。

Would you say to all founders building an AI today from day one, don't worry about defensibility. It comes over time.

是的。好问题。我有一个朋友有一个关于AI初创公司的有趣比喻，即如果你能开始获得吸引力，AI初创公司就像从大炮中射向天空的鸡。然后就是作为一只鸡快速拍打翅膀，因为每天都有新的鸡从大炮中射出来。如果你比其他鸡拍打得快，你就会做得很好。

Yes. Great question. I have I have a friend who has this fun analog in terms of an AI startup, which is that AI startups are like chickens shot out of a cannon up in the sky if you if you can start getting traction. And then it's all about flapping fast as a chicken because there are new chickens shot out from cannons every day. And if you keep flapping faster than the other chickens, then you're going to do great.

我认为这是一个很好的第一层分析，关于你应该如何操作。

And I think that's a good, like, first level of analysis in how you should operate.

我要对任何在听的素食主义者说，没有鸡被从大炮中射出来，这是最瑞典的方式，你知道，就像里德·霍夫曼说的，你知道，这就像是带着滑翔伞从悬崖上跑下去，或者随便什么，然后拍打翅膀。那样也行。

I'm just gonna say for any vegans that are listening, no chickens were shot out of cannons, and that is the most extremely Swedish way of you know, it's the Reid Hoffman who says, you know, it's about kind of running off the cliff or whatever with a paraglider and just kind of flapping. That works too.

是的。我想这是我的建议，就是执行要快，成长要更快。当你开始上升时，你可以开始考虑一下防御性。

Yep. I think I think that's my recommendation, to just be like, execute fast, grow faster. When you're starting to get up there, you can start maybe start thinking a bit about about the defensibility.

这是一个批评。另一个是，实际上当你看看这些企业，很多人用你的Rapplets、你的Bolts、你的Lovels来批评这一点，它们在单位经济方面并不是很好的企业，很多东西都是传递过去的。所以，直白地说，如果我给你一美元，多少

That's the one criticism. Another is that actually when you look at these businesses, and a lot of people are criticizing this with your Rapplets, your Bolts, your Lovels, they're not actually very good businesses in terms of unit economics, and so much is passed through. So, like, bluntly, if I give you a dollar, how much

是直接传递给Anthropic和OpenAI的吗？我不会给你具体数字，但如果你看付费使用情况，大部分（并非全部）是这样的。

is passed straight through to Anthropic and OpenAI? I don't give you the exact numbers, but if you look at the paid usage, majority, it's not everything.

这种情况会如何随时间变化？

How does that change over time?

随着业务发展，我们希望当用户爱上这个平台并决定永不离开时，能获得大部分收入。但目前初期阶段，你支付的费用基本用于建设。长期来看，我们只想创造足够价值留住订阅用户，而成本中只有小部分流向他们的AI算力。

So as our business develops, we're looking to get most of our revenue once you as a user are like, I love this platform, I'm never leaving. But today it's only like in the beginning, you're paying to build pretty much. So over time, we just wanna create so much value, stay on the subscription, and a small part of the cost is goes to the to their AI compute.

你们能否通过不优化模型来盈利？我的意思是，未来制作简单的个人网站可能不需要最新最强的模型。随着所有应用发展，AI将...

Will you be able to make money through not optimizing models? And what I mean by that is in the future, you may not need the very best, very latest model to do the simple about me website. And so you can route users. As all applications develop, the AI is

会适应这些应用场景。对多数事情来说操作超级简单，就像开车时你不会思考操作动作。只有遇到新驾驶情况时大脑才会高速运转——我们还没到那个阶段。

going to be adapted to those applications. And for most things, it's like super simple to do it. It's like you're driving a car and you don't you're not thinking about what you're doing. When you're in a new situation driving a car, then you're like your brain really goes on fire. We're not there.

距离那个阶段还很远。我认为现在优化为时过早，因为AI每个月都在做全新的事情。我们只想快速迭代AI能力，而非针对当前功能优化模型。

We're not close to being there yet. I think for us, it's too early to optimize for that because the AI is every month is like doing new completely different things. So we just want to be able to iterate really fast on what the AI is able to do, and not optimize the models for what they what it's doing.

这很有趣。所以你们为明天模型的能力而构建，而非基于当下。

That's really interesting. So you build for what tomorrow's model can do, not what we have today.

是的，很大程度上是这样。通常我认为模型应该具备深度思考能力，目前我们投入大量工作在这些模型上。未来会根据场景混合使用——当操作明确时几乎零成本，

Yes. To quite a large extent, yes. And generally, when I think about models, they're the models that are very thoughtful and deep thinking. And now we put as much of work on those models. In the future, it's going to be a mix in terms of when it's obvious what you should do, then it doesn't cost any money.

速度极快。但开发软件产品常遇到新情况，这时就需要更多思考。

It's super fast. But when it's a new situation, which building a software product often results in, then it has to think much more.

另一个可见利润增长的领域是代币销售。考虑到专业用户和消费者通常不了解代币定价，你们实际上可以在代币使用上保持可观溢价。你认为这是获取利润弹性的有效途径吗？

One other area where you can see real, like, margin expansion is also in token selling. Like, when you think about, like, how you price tokens, given prosumers and consumers don't fundamentally often know the price of tokens, you can actually have quite a considerable markup on token usage. Do you think that is a place of real elasticity to gain margin or not?

是的。这是几个月前的事，但我们查看了有多少收入是通过可爱应用的AI流转的。好的。这部分年经常性收入（ARR）已超过1000万美元。而现在所有这些收入都需要用户经历一个复杂的流程来建立与模型提供商的连接。

Yeah. So this was a few months ago, but we looked at how much revenue is flowing through the AI from lovable applications. Okay. And it was more than $10,000,000 in ARR. And now all of that revenue needs the user to go through this with complex process of setting up the connection to the model providers.

我们正在考虑简化这一过程。所以请继续关注我们如何首先为用户实现更简单的操作。然后如果我们能降低底层成本，或许我们还能——

We're looking at simplifying. So stay tuned for how we enable more simplicity, first of all, for our users with that. And then if we can reduce the underlying cost, maybe we can

——在那里也抽取一部分利润。你如何看待心智可塑性对延迟利润优化的影响？就是说，愿意等待利润逐渐提升的心态。我的意思是，比如你看外卖行业，早期利润率极低，但随着用户增多、区域订单密度增加，利润会越来越好。这需要耐心。

add take a margin there as well. How do you think about mental plasticity to delay margin optimization? So, like, the willingness to wait for margins to come. And what I mean by that is, like, if you look at delivery, its margins are shit in the early days, and over time, they get better and better as you have more and more people use it and more density, more orders in small areas. You've gotta be patient.

OpenAI如此，Lovable也是如此。你认为需要多久才会开始考虑利润优化？

Same with OpenAI. Same with Lovable. How long does one think before you're thinking margin optimization?

对此我有两个矛盾的观点。一个是和Revolut创始人Nick交流时，他告诉我：Anto，你需要计算回收期，然后必须狠下功夫优化新用户获取效率。当然还要保证单用户利润的回收期合理——这很合理。微小利润率调整实际上会极大影响增长速度。但我现在更倾向另一个观点：现阶段应该尽可能扩大心智占有率和培养热爱品牌的用户群。

I have these two conflicting pieces of perspectives on it. And one is I speak to Nick who built Revolut, and he just tells me, like, Anto, you need to compute the payback time, and then you need to do super hard performance optimization on acquiring new users. And then you of course need to have a good payback times in terms of profits per user, which makes sense. If you can do small changes in on margins, actually affects a lot on how fast you can grow. But the other perspective which I index a bit more on right now is you just want to have as much mindshare and as many users who just love the brand as possible right now.

利润问题可以后期考虑。具体如何平衡这两个观点，就像需要查看我神经网络里的权重参数，其实是二者的某种组合。

And then you can think about that later. So exactly how I trade those two perspectives off is you need to look at the weights in my neural network, but it's some combination of the two.

真有趣。我认为绝对是第二种，然后第三种是——

It's so funny. I think it's absolutely number two. And then it's number three

那是什么？

What is that?

就是NICS（极致性能优化）。要真正理解从获客成本（CAC）到用户终身价值（LTV）的漏斗指标，如何通过渠道提升效率。知道讽刺的是什么吗？过了这个阶段后又会回归艺术性经营——Nick现在就在这个阶段——因为基础优化已经做到极致了。

Which is NICS, which is, like, incredible performance optimization. Yeah. Really understanding funnel metrics metrics from from CAC CAC to to LTV, how you drive efficiency through the channels. Then do you know what's ironic? You kind of then go back after that stage to an art, which is where Nick is now, which is we've done that so well.

没错。我们得去赞助赛车，因为品牌再次成为最重要的事情。这个循环很有意思：就像钟形曲线先上升后下降，品牌建设在商业光谱的两端都至关重要。

Yep. We have to sponsor race cars because brand again becomes the most important thing. It's so interesting. You know that kind of bell curve where you see it up and then it comes down again. It's it's kind of like that on brand where you have it at both ends of the spectrum.

是的。我觉得如果你能一次性完成所有事情，公司会受益匪浅，但通常你做不到。就像你应该...你应该

Yep. I think you like, if you can do everything at once, the company benefits a lot, but you usually can't. Like you should you should

集中精力。你现在最想做但没在做或做不到的事情是什么？

be focused. What would you most like to do now that you're not doing or can't do?

所以我希望能重新思考应用程序的构建方式。比如构建应用程序的最佳方法是什么。Lovable现在所做的是汇集了几十年来优秀软件产品的所有最佳实践。但未来不会是这样的。所有软件应用都将融入某种形式的AI。

So I would like to rethink how the applications are built. Like what is the best way to build an application. What Lovable does now is it takes all the best practices from decades of how great software products we built. But that's not how the future is going to look like. All software applications are going to have some type of AI.

它们将拥有极其无缝的支付和结账流程。这是我很想花时间去研究并实现的，让我们的用户不仅能拥有超人般的AI工程师，更能拥有一个能构建未来应用的AI工程师。我们之前提到过利润优化。

They're going to have extremely seamless payment and checkout flows. That's something I'd love for us to spend time on figuring out and making it possible for our users not to just have superhuman AI engineer, but to have a AI engineer that builds like the future of applications. We mentioned margin optimization there.

当我们审视模型提供商时，我们说过这是一种方式，你也需要具备那种思维可塑性。我们看到OpenAI建议或提出类似Lovable的竞争对手。你觉得OpenAI和Anthropic会在多大程度上像Claude Code追赶Cursor那样针对Lovable？

When we look at kind of the model providers, we said that it's one way you also have to have that mental plasticity. We saw OpenAI suggest or proffer Lovable style competitors. To what extent do you feel OpenAI and Anthropic will come after Lovable in the way that Claude Code comes after Cursor?

长期来看，这归根结底是团队执行力的问题，很多人都会提供我们今天提供的服务。我们只需要在那个时候提供更多。给用户更好的体验，给客户更有价值的提案。

In the long term, it just comes down to execution of a team, and many people are going to offer what we're offering today. We just need to offer much more when that time comes. Give a better user experience, give a better value proposition to our customers.

你更担心OpenAI还是Anthropic做这件事？

Who do you worry more about OpenAI doing or Anthropic doing it?

我们押注的是成为人类与AI之间的门户，并提供最佳的AI用户体验。到目前为止，OpenAI在这方面做得比Anthropic更好。所以我认为在十二个月内，他们会是更强劲的竞争对手。

What we're betting on is to be the gateway for humans and be the best user experience for AI. And so far, OpenAI is doing that better than Anthropic. So I see them as a more serious competitor in in twelve months.

你是如何分析GPT五的？当你看到性能表现后，你是

How did you analyze GPT five? And when you look at performance post, are you

对OpenAI更乐观还是更悲观了？在决定将GPT五纳入产品之前，我们深入研究了它会对用户产生什么影响。我们考察了响应所需时间，分析了定量评估结果，并通过多种方式进行了直观感受。我们的结论是，它往往对我们的用户来说太过雄心勃勃了。

more or less bullish on OpenAI? We looked at a lot of how GPT five would impact our users before we decided, okay, let's put this into the product. And we looked at how long time it took to get responses. We looked at our quantitative evals and then we just vibe checked it in many different ways. And what we concluded was that it's oftentimes too like ambitious for our users.

正因如此我们决定，嘿，这非常聪明。那就把它开放给所有用户，看看他们反馈哪些好用哪些不好用。我们发现当你要解决极其棘手的问题时，它表现优异。至于OpenAI是否做得很好？我认为他们将五个不同模型整合到ChatGPT供用户选择，是个非常明智的决定。

And that's why we decided, hey, this is very smart. So let's give it all our users and see what they tell us in terms of how like what's good and what's bad. What we found was that for the use cases when you have to solve a really, really hard problem, it's great. In terms of is OpenAI doing a great job? I think this was a really smart obvious choice for them to say like we have these five different models that you have to select in ChatGPT.

干脆简化成单一模型GPT-5。他们绝对应该这么做。但这伴随着许多权衡取舍。到目前为止，我认为他们执行得相当不错。

Let's just bring it down into one model GPT-five. So they should definitely should have done that. But it comes with a lot of trade offs. And so far, I'd say they executed pretty well on it.

这个模型还是太理想化了。当你把标准定在AGI时，随之而来的模型优化和路由问题本质上就是...没错。能力方面并没有实现阶跃式的提升

The model is still too ambitious. There's also a question of when you set the bar at AGI, and then you get model optimization and model routing, really essentially what it is. Yep. That's it. Capability wise, it hasn't been a step function improvement in what

相比之前。GPT-5最令人失望的是现在他们要把所有功能优化进单一模型。以前是不同模型分工且需要快速迭代。所以必然在某些维度会有所欠缺。我的意思是，你不可能同时提升所有方向的能力，这确实是个遗憾。

we had before. The biggest part of GPT five that's disappointing is that now they have to optimize all these different things into one model. Before it was like different models and they had to do it really fast. So it's inevitably going to fall short in some dimensions. I mean, it it just is a disappointment that you can't improve in all the directions at the same time.

你们目前在Lovable中如何搭配使用OpenAI和Anthropic？

How do you use OpenAI versus Anthropic within Lovable today?

我们设计了非常复杂的智能体链，将用户响应和应用程序信息传递通过多个模型处理。有些小型模型响应极快，而代码编写我们通常用Anthropic。现在你可以指定使用GPT-5，它在解决复杂调试问题时表现更优。

We have a this very complex agentic chain where we pass the users response, the application information through many different models. And they can be taken really fast and small ones and then we use for code writing. We usually use Anthropic. And right now you can say like, I want to use GPT five, and that's better when you're solving a really hard debugging problem.

非常有意思。所以你们发现它在处理

Super interesting. And you've seen it be better than Anthropic when it comes to

棘手调试问题时优于Anthropic？没错。

a hard debugging problem? Yeah.

当前模型还有哪些未实现的能力，能让Lovable产生质的飞跃？我对某些可能性感到非常兴奋

What do models not do today that would be a step function change in what Lovable can do? Like something I'm I'm super excited about

关键在于AI需要更了解对话对象，知道如何根据我们的特定应用来引导回答。解决这个问题需要我们重构智能体链架构，同时长期投入——比如斥资1亿美元聘请顶尖模型训练团队。让AI为你提供高度个性化服务，这就是我们的发展蓝图。

is that the AI has more context about who they're talking to and how they should be answering to guide them through our specific application. Solving that problem is something that we have to do. And we have to do it both with like how we build this agentic chain and over time in building absolutely world class, paying $100,000,000 for getting the people that train the models. So that's the on the horizon for us to to get it to like be hyper personalized for you specifically.

当你思考专为你和你的用户高度个性化定制时，你们最近宣布实现了1亿美元年度经常性收入（ARR），七个月内达成这一里程碑令人惊叹。多年来，老兄，从零到两年内达到1000万美元曾是黄金标准。没错，这就是我成长过程中所知的，让我感觉自己真的老了。我的问题是，当你审视这1亿美元的收入构成时，粗略估计一下，业余爱好者、专业开发者和普通人群之间的比例如何分配？

When you think about hyper personalized for you specifically and the users that you have, you recently announced a 100,000,000 ARR, amazing milestone to hit in seven months. For years, dude, it was like zero to 10,000,000 in two years was like the gold standard. Yeah. That's what I was brought up on, which makes me feel really old. My question to you is when you look at revenue breakdown, of the 100,000,000, just kind of guesstimate, what is split between hobbyists, pro devs, kind of normal people?

不同用户群体之间的分布情况是怎样的？

How does it fit between the different segments?

你说得对。人们用Lovable做所有事情——他们带着创建软件产品和业务的点子而来。还有很多大公司员工用它来验证'我认为公司实际应该开发什么'，他们构建出可运行的产品原型后，再决定是否交给工程团队正式实施。

You're right. So people do everything with Lovable. They come with their idea to build a software business and product. And then there's a lot of people in large companies that use it as like, okay, now I can prove show what I actually think we should build in the business. And they build a working product that then they can like decide, are we going to give it to our engineering team and they actually implement it.

其余用户则用来快速创建个人网站或小企业网站。80%的用户属于第一类，他们正在构建真正复杂的应用程序。从收入占比来看...是的，从收入百分比来说。

And then it's everyone else who build like their personal website, their small business websites, like in a few minutes. 80% of people are are in the first category. They're building real complex applications in terms of revenue. Yeah, in terms of revenue. Percent.

第二类用户群体实际上增长非常快，因为企业正在逐渐觉醒。你可能见过谷歌那位产品负责人说'我们再也不写产品文档了，必须用Lovable之类工具构建完整可运行的演示'。这个用例也在快速增长。至于第三类用例，很多人曾深受Squarespace等无代码建站平台之苦。

And then the second segment is actually growing very fast because enterprises are slowing to wake up. But you might have seen this product leader from Google who says like we're never again writing a document about a product. We have to use lovable or something to build out a fully working demo. That use case is also growing very fast. And in terms of the third use case, a lot of people have been burned trying to build nice websites in this like no code website builders with Squarespace and so on.

如果能用Lovable以更成熟的UX快速实现所有需求，这类用户也在增长。但我认为前两类才是真正的游戏规则改变者。

And if you can just always do everything they loveable and with a UX that I think is more sophisticated in moving fast, that's also growing. But I think the the first two are the ones who are really, like, game changers.

好的，所以回到80%是构建复杂应用，10%企业用户和10%业余爱好者？这就是你们期望的比例吗？

Okay. So we go back to 80%, sorry, is, like, actually building complex apps, and then 10% is enterprise and 10% is hobbyists? Yeah. Is that what you want it to be?

我们希望服务于新一代AI原生创业者，他们可能打造单人独角兽。有趣的是，这些人往往也在大型成功企业工作，同时想帮亲友搭建简单网站。所以我认为...是的，这个比例分配很合理。

We want to build for the new generation of AI native founders that build like maybe one person unicorns too. The funny thing is that those people also have jobs maybe in large successful companies, and they wanna help their friends and their family to build simple websites. So I think this is a yeah. I think this is a good split.

如果从价值提取角度考虑，这真的是最优市场吗？比如AI创始人在Lovable上建立巨型业务固然好，但如果是单人席位，要实现真正的价值提取就很困难。

Is that an optimal market to go after if you're thinking, god. It's not such a VC, but, like, value extraction, which is like an AI founder building a mega business on Lovable. Great. You wanna have to have a lot of mechanisms for value extraction and then be it payment solutions or you name it. But if they're single seat, it's just, like, tough to get true value extraction from that.

难道面向70亿普通人，让每位父母都能搭建'关于我'网站的业余爱好者市场不是更好选择吗？

Is it not much better to be hobbyist for everyone, for mom and pop, to build the About Me website where it's 7,000,000,000 people?

嗯。我们的使命是赋能那些有机会创业但被不会编程和缺乏资金雇佣工程师所阻碍的人群。所以从创业者开始是显而易见的，随后这种赋能会自然惠及更多人。我认为他们是最适合作为初始服务对象的群体。

Mhmm. Like, our mission is to enable a lot of people that have the opportunity to build businesses, but they have been held back by not being able to write code and have access to capital to hire engineers. So it's obvious to start with the people who are going to build businesses. And then it naturally trickles down to everyone else as well as a function of that. Think those are the best people to start building for.

关于价值提取的问题，我考虑得较少，我更关注我们的使命本身。

Where you can extract value, I think less about that. I think about our mission.

你们应该设立一个'可爱假日基金'，每年支付大型企业里最有才华的员工一周假期津贴。

You should have, like, a lovable holiday fund, which is, like, every year we pay the most talented people within large enterprises for a week's holiday.

然后他们就能创业。对，这样他们就能...他们可以...在那周直接使用Lovable平台

And then they build their business. Yeah. So they they can they can They just use Lovable for the week,

一周后他们就辞职了。没错，我觉得这会是史上最有趣的事。

and after the week, they see they quit their job. Yeah. I think it'd be the funnest thing ever.

这个主意听起来不错。是的。不过我可以再稍微展开下商业层面的思考。

I think that sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. But I can just expand a bit on, like, on the business thinking there as well. Yeah.

我认为当今许多巨型企业尚未诞生。借助AI，你可以极速推进，更快迭代，紧贴客户需求，降低价格。我们想成为这场变革的赋能工具。长期来看这将带来巨大收益。如果我们能同时实现你提到的所有应用场景，那么采用率或收益占比最终会趋近于——企业的支出规模究竟有多大？

So I think many of the largest businesses, they haven't been quite started yet today. Now with AI, you can move so fast, you can iterate much faster, close to your customers, you can drive prices down. We want to be the enabling tool for that movement. I think over time that's going to result in a lot of revenue. If we can do every all of these use cases as that you're asking about at the same time, what our use case percentage of adoption or revenue is going to converge towards is just what's the what's the spend from enterprises?

企业的终极支出会是多少？如果我们持续主导这个全新领域，消费者最终会为这类工具支付多少？

What's the, like, game spend from enterprises? What's the end game spend for consumers on tools like this if we continue to dominate this completely new category?

当然，我非常感谢你接受我的投资。但投资Lovable的首要原因是其市场潜力扩张的不可估量性。就像Uber，你永远无法预见其市场会扩张到何种程度。没错，Lovable也是如此。

Obviously, I'm super grateful for you for taking my money. But the reason the number one reason why I would invest in Lovable, the TAM expansion is actually incomprehensible. Very much like Uber, you could never have foreseen the market expansion that would take place. Yep. Very much like Lovable.

用网站建设工具市场来类比完全错误，无法理解Lovable未来的规模上限。这正是顶级风险投资项目的共同特征。

Saying website builders is an x market is completely the wrong analogy to understand how big Lovable could be moving forwards. And that's a common thing of the best venture investments ever made.

是的。我还想谈谈企业用例。假如我是大型企业的CEO或CTO，我不会只考虑如何提升工程师效率，而是会思考如何最快获取关于该构建什么的信息，并将这些信息融入新产品或现有产品中。这需要公司每个人都能在一个平台上协作，修改编辑产品并提出新改进方案。

Yeah. I I think also just wanna say on the enterprise use case. So if I was a CEO or like a CTO of a large enterprise company, I wouldn't think in terms of oh, how can we make our engineers more productive? I would think in terms of how can we get the most information about what we should build as quickly as possible into new products or into our existing products. That requires everyone in the company to be able to work in one place to change and edit their products and propose new changes to it.

无论是我们还是其他人都很难在短期内打造出这样的产品。更好的做法是从零开始的创业者入手，再逐步推广到企业市场。

It's hard for us and for anyone in that matter to build a product that does that tomorrow. It's better for us to start with the founders who are building it from the ground up and then move it into the enterprise, the

将相同体验带入企业。这也实现了公司内部想法的惊人民主化。我采访过Duolingo的CP（首席产品官），他提到两名设计师——通常并非产品构建主力——从第一天起就在Duolingo里创建了国际象棋功能。

same experience into the enterprise. It also allows for this incredible democratization of ideas within companies. I interviewed the CP at Duolingo for 20 products. And he actually said how two designers, not traditionally ones who actually come up with obviously building products Yep. From day one, created chess in Duolingo.

他们用的工具我记不清了，希望是可协作的。那其实是他们的首个迭代版本，我认为是这个理念的绝佳实例。这是否意味着我们会失去设计流程和头脑风暴过程？

And they did it with I can't remember what the tool was. I hope it was lovable. And that was actually their first iteration of it, which I thought was an amazing instantiation of this. Does that mean then that we lose the design process and the brainstorming process?

我们是否跳过这些直接进入原型阶段？听着，迄今为止的做法是：先有想法，然后经历无数步骤才能成为高速增长的产品，我称之为产品生命周期。其中编码环节现在因AI而大幅提速。

Do we skip that and go straight to prototyping? Look. To date, what you've done is that you've taken an idea and then you went through many, many, many steps until it's like a fully fast growing product. I call that the product lifecycle. One part of it is writing the code, which is like where AI now has made it much faster.

之后还有许多步骤，之前也有步骤——比如制作模型、内部验证、用户验证。我们目前做的是把从构思到验证'这就是我们要发布的产品'的全过程，甚至包括引入外部用户测试，压缩到几分钟或几小时内完成。这是我们产品最成熟的环节。

There are many steps after that. There are steps before that, which is to like mock it up, validate it internally, validate it with your users. What we've done so far is to take all the first step until like this is validated, this is what we need to ship. And even we have even external users on it into one few minutes or a few hours of building. So that's where we've seen like the most maturity on our product.

后续步骤需要我们尽快完善，这样你就不需要独立的产品设计工程部门。一个集成工具就能让最有创意的人充分投入时间。

The steps that come after is something we have to build out as fast as possible so that you don't need like a product design engineering organisation. It's one all one tool where anyone with the best ideas spend the most time.

所有前置步骤之后的步骤。我说的前置步骤是指——你看Figma正在推Figma Make功能，他们主张永远保留设计环节，然后再进入产品生命周期的第二阶段，即从设计到原型开发的构建阶段。你有多担心来自这个早期阶段的竞争？

The steps after all the steps before. And what I mean by the steps before is you see at the other end of the spectrum Figma doing Figma make, where they're like, hey. We'll always have the design process, and then we'll move with you into the second phase of that product life cycle Yep. Into the build or prototype phase from design to prototype. To what extent do you worry about entry from that earlier standpoint?

来自Figma的竞争？没错，考虑到他们掌控着设计阶段，接着就会进军原型开发。

Entry from Figma or Yeah. Entry from Figma, given the fact that they own the design phase, just then move into prototyping.

我认为人类有时过于追求细节完美，这会导致进展缓慢。当前的设计方式——由一个人缓慢精细地完成所有设计——将被AI取代：你只需阐述高层次的设计理念，AI负责设计实现。然后人类去收集'大家觉得这个设计如何'的反馈，再输入给AI。最终形成一套贯穿始终的体系，内置所有营销增长功能，以及开发高质量软件所需的测试质检等工具。这才是新范式——若坚持用Figma这类工具做设计，反而会拖慢进度。

I think humans are sometimes too obsessed with small details being perfect, which makes you move much slower. And the way of doing it right now with the design and what like one person does all the design very slow, very detailed is going to be replaced by AI doing you talk much more high level and you talk about your design philosophy and then the AI does the implementation of design. And then you as a human go out and get all the context from do other people think this is looks good and give it all as feedback into the AI. And then there's a very seamless opinionated way of taking it all the way to a product with all the marketing and growth functions in built in AI behind it, as well as all the tooling you need to evolve high quality software product, comes like testing quality assurance and so And that's a that's a new way of doing it and thinking you should be doing design with Make and like the Figma tools, it will slow you down too much.

那么Figma会怎么样？

What happens to Figma then?

对于某些需要像素级精确的工作，继续使用Figma会非常棒。我不知道他们的分发模式会如何演变——是采用更具主张性的方式（这正是我们平台的发展方向），还是许多公司希望保持现在在Figma这类工具中的使用方式。你认为你们的主张足够明确吗？我们的工具提供了极大的灵活性，但代价是产品开发速度有所牺牲。不过我认为这是一个相当不错的平衡点。

For some pixel perfect things it's going to be amazing to continue to use Figma. I don't know how their distribution will look like in terms of doing it with a more opinionated way, which is what our platform is becoming, versus how many companies want to continue to do it like you do it now in a tool like Figma. Do you think you're opinionated enough? Our tool enables a lot of flexibility at the cost of some velocity on our product development. But I think it's a pretty good sweet spot.

你可以用Lovable构建，然后任何工程师都可以随时介入编辑或接管项目。是的，如果我们在工作方式上更有主张性，开发速度会更快。

You can build with Lovable and then any engineer can come in and edit and take over if they want to. I think, yes, we will we would be moving faster if we were more even more opinionated about how things should be done.

你们在哪些方面希望更有主张性但尚未实现？

What are you not opinionated on that you would like to be

在理想状态下？在理想世界中，我们会更明确指导如何构建应用程序，并预知以AI为核心的应用开发未来。但现阶段不可能，因为AI的运行机制以及用Lovable构建产品时，AI的最佳用户体验变化太快。未来某天我希望能实现。如果我们能更有主张性，就能为你的产品提供恰到好处的AI微调，或优化后端流程和工作流，让自动化真正为产品服务。

in a dream world? In a dream world, we would be even more opinionated about how you build an application and we would know what's the future of building applications with AI being such a core part of it. I don't think it's possible because how AI works and like what's the best UX with AI for the products that are built with Lovable changes so rapidly. At some point in the future, I'd love to be there. And what happens if we can be more opinionated is that you get the right level of detailed adjustments on how the AI works for your product, or back end flows and workflows, so automations work for your product.

目前我们支持多种方式，所以现阶段更需要擅长精准提示。

And now we have we support a lot of different things. So it's more you need to be really good at prompting right now.

你认为五年后我们还需要手动输入提示吗？

Do you think we will prompt in five years time?

是的，我认为会。但操作方式可能会进化。比如超个性化技术将替代现在需要人工完成的详细提示。这意味着什么？提示本质上就是向AI提供关于你的目标和执行方式的上下文。

Yes, I think so. But maybe it will evolve in terms of how you do it. Like hyper personalization takes care of a lot of detailed prompting that we have to do today. What does that mean? Prompting is basically providing context to an AI of what your goals are and how you want it to do something.

当你拥有优秀的员工时，他们完全了解你的工作方式。你只需要说'去斯德哥尔摩办个黑客松'，一切就会如魔法般实现。

When you have great employees for you, They know everything about how you how you want it to work. So you just have to say, let's go to Stockholm and do a hackathon and then it just magically becomes what you want it to be.

说实话，现在基本就是这样了。

It pretty much does. Honestly.

我要说的是

I to say

我之前给我妈妈发了一张照片，她说这跟你一点关系都没有。我说，确实没有。她说，我就知道。

that I sent a picture to my mother beforehand and she's like, you had nothing to do with that. And I'm like, no, I did not. She's like, I know.

对。你不能光说告诉查奇·皮特尼什么的。直接说我们去萨克拉门托黑客马拉松吧。他肯定会想出和你预想不一样的东西。对吧？

Right. And you can't just say tell Chachi Pitney or something. Just go let's go to Sacramento hackathon. He's gonna come up with something else than what you had in mind. Right?

嗯。所以你要么给出非常非常详细的提示，要么确保它了解你的思维方式。而这正是我们将要进化的方向。

Mhmm. And so you can either prompt it very, very detailed or you can make sure it's it knows how you think. And that's what we'll be evolving towards.

我们提到了'有主见'这个词。是的。我们在讨论公司时谈到这个。老兄，我喜欢你在社交媒体上的表现，因为你在那里也很有主见。我觉得这同时也相当直率。

We said the word opinionated. Yep. And we spoke about it with regards to the company. Dude, I love your social media presence because you're also opinionated in your social media presence. And I think it's, respectively, also just quite blunt.

你在谈论竞争对手时也很有主见，特别是像Rapplet这样的公司。你如何决定是否要对竞争对手采取有主见的立场？

And you've been opinionated in how you talk about competition, and specifically, like a raplet of the world. How do you think about whether or not to engage in an opinionated stance against competition or not? I

我不太考虑竞争对手。唯一重要的是我们把产品做到最好，并持续兑现对客户的承诺。如果有特殊情况发生——比如之前有个竞争对手发现很多应用制作粗糙，声称这是漏洞。我咨询了很多安全专家，这根本不是正常的漏洞披露方式。所以后来我就公开批评了他们。

don't think so much about competition. The only thing that matters is that we make our product the best product and we continue to deliver on like our value promises to our customers. If there is something that happens, so there was a competitor that found a lot of apps that have been poorly made and they said oh this is a vulnerability and I spoke to a lot of security professionals. That wasn't really like how you would normally announce vulnerability. So then I went in and bashed them as an outcome of that.

我觉得那是个很被动的反应，如果面对面的话，我很乐意亲自和那个竞争对手分享这些想法。

I think that was a very reactive thing, and I think it was like something I'd be happy to share in person to that competitor, like, face to face. Well, I

说起来很有意思，我朋友杰森·莱姆金——不知道你看到没有——他当时在用Rapplet。后来记不清具体发生了什么，但他们要么遭遇重大安全漏洞，要么删除了他所有数据库，总之出了严重问题，对他们来说就像红色警报。他得出的结论是：所有平台都要重视安全。

mean, it was it was interesting because Jason Lemkin, who's a friend of mine, I don't know if you saw it, but he was using Rapplet. And then I can't remember exactly what happened, but they basically had a massive security breach or they deleted all his database or something bad happened, and it was, like, code red for them. And the takeaway for him was, like, just security on all of them

是的。

Yep.

这还远远达不到应有的水平。而且，Replit抨击Lovable是不对的，Lovable抨击Replit也不对。你们在安全方面都做得很糟糕。这是事实吗？

Is just nowhere near where it needs to be. And, like, it's wrong for Replit to bash Lovable. It's wrong for Lovable to bash Replit. All of you guys suck at security. Is that true?

是的。我想他们...让我换个说法。首先，我们每周都会在全公司范围内讨论安全问题。几乎每天我都会听到关于安全的讨论，因为我们对此非常重视。我们有多个层面来确保它比人工开发应用更安全。

Yes. I think they they Like so let me say it different way. First of all, we talk about security like company wide every week. Almost like every day I I hear something about security because we take it so seriously. There's so many different fronts to make it much more secure than if a human would do the application development.

这就是为什么我们必须成为全球安全领域的佼佼者。

And that's why it's so important for us to be the best in the world at security.

所以你是说它比人类更安全？

So you're saying it's more secure than humans?

目前还不是。如果你拿一个通常在大型团队中工作、拥有很多支持的普通开发者来说，当他们独立开发应用时，平均而言会制造出有安全漏洞的软件。而用Lovable构建应用时，它会引导你通过一系列安全审查，AI也会进行多项安全检查。最终它会给出绿灯——表示未发现安全漏洞。将普通开发者与Lovable相比，后者出现漏洞的概率更低。

Not yet. If you take your average developer who normally works in a large team where they have a lot of support and then they they that human goes out and builds an application, they are going to create software that has security holes on average. When you build an application with lovable, it's going to tell you to go through a bunch of security reviews, and the AI is going to do a bunch of security reviews. And finally, it's going to give you green light like we haven't found any security vulnerabilities. If you compare those two, the the average, truly average developer with Lovable, Lovable is going to have a lower chance of having a vulnerability.

因此我们希望将这个概率降至0%。我们必须实现零漏洞可能。

And so we want them that put that to 0%. We need to put that at 0% chance of vulnerability.

这让我想起自动驾驶。对世界上最优秀的司机来说，肯定比自动驾驶强，但对大多数疲劳驾驶的人来说...

It reminds me of self driving. For the world's best driver, I'm sure you are better than self driving, but for the majority and for the majority who are tired

没错。人类有可能...

Yes. Humans have the potential to

宿醉、亢奋、状态异常，实际上非常危险，但同时也可能表现得出奇地好。

be hungover, high, malfunctioning in some way, actually wildly dangerous and much, much better.

确实如此。是的。我为团队目前在安全方面取得的成就感到自豪，但未来还有更多工作要做。

Very much so. Yep. I'm very proud of what the team done so far with the security, and but there's more to come.

我们已经以多种方式讨论过许多不同的竞争对手，从你们的Figma到Rapplers。如果展望未来三年，这个领域会是什么样子？

We've spoken about many different competitors in different ways from your Figma to your Rapplers. If you move forward three years, what does the space look like then?

我专注于我们的产品功能以及如何最好地服务客户。说实话，我不太做预测。如果我们能占据这个市场的大部分利润份额，那当然很棒。如果利润分散在不同公司之间，只要我们能打造一款世代相传的产品，那也没问题。

I focus on what our product does and how we serve our customers best. And like, I don't really predict that. If we get all the the majority of the profit share in this market, that's amazing. This is spread out across different companies. That's that's also fine as long as we build a product that lasts for generations.

而实现这一点的方法，就是为客户打造最优秀的产品。

And that and I do that by building the best product for our customers.

这就是为什么品牌对你们如此重要？

And this is why brand is so important for you?

我就是这么认为的。

That's how I think about it.

你介意开发者去Lovable获取60%的代码，然后进行微调吗？

Do you mind if devs go to Lovable, get 60% of the code from there, and then fine tune it?

两年前刚开始时我就不介意。我决定要打造Lovable时就清楚，这是为人类不再编写代码的世界准备的——而且我们正在非常、非常快速地朝那个方向迈进。如今我完全不在意，这应该保持灵活性。

I don't like, from the get go two years ago, I decided that I'm gonna build lovable. We know it's for a world where humans don't write code anymore, and they were quickly moving there. We're very, very quickly moving there. Today, I don't mind at all. Like, it should be flexible.

有些开发者有自己的工作方式。我认为建立能兼容多种工具的生态系统是好事。但长远来看，最终会趋向于高度集成的平台——就像我们正在打造的——届时人们会权衡使用其他工具的成本效益。而仅使用LavaBall将成为显而易见的高效优质之选。

You some humans have their way of doing things. And I think it's good if you have, like, ecosystem where you can use many many many different tools on on the product. Over time, I I think it will converge towards the very opinionated platform, like the ones we're building towards, and everyone's just look at what's the cost benefit of doing it with some other tool as well. Only using LavaBall is going to be the obvious, most the high velocity and high quality driving choice.

目前AI是把普通工程师提升10倍，还是让10倍效能的工程师变成100倍？

Today, does AI make one x engineers 10 x, or does it make the 10 x engineers a 100 x?

两者都有。确实如此

It does both. It really

两者兼顾。我必须迫使你选择其一。

does both. I have to force you to one.

对于初级工程师，那些1倍效率的工程师来说，他们往往在某些方面表现不佳，对吧？如果他们能弥合这一差距，就能实现从零到一的突破，做到以前无法做到的事，这就像10倍提升，甚至更多。所以如果是这种情况，那对他们来说无疑价值更大。如果是一个10倍效率的工程师在处理需要多年经验才能上手的系统，而新手初级工程师完全不懂这个系统，那么1倍效率的工程师就毫无用处。

For the junior engineers, one x engineers, they often are bad at something. Right? If they can bridge that gap, it takes them from zero to one and to be able to do something they were not able to do before, it's like a 10x, they go to 10x or even more. So if that's the case, then they definitely got, then it's more valuable for them. If it's a 10x engineer working on something where you need a lot of many years of experience to work on a system that a new junior engineer completely doesn't understand, the one x engineer doesn't understand the system, then the one x engineer is useless.

所以没有人工智能能提升他们的效率，而10倍效率的工程师可能会变成

So no AI is going to increase their velocity, whereas the 10 x engineer is going to maybe go to

100倍效率的工程师。未来五年工程团队的规模会如何变化？

a 100 x engineer. How will the size of engineering teams change in the next five years?

对于顶尖公司而言，工程师将充当这种转化层角色。他们需要更多从产品角度思考，更像产品经理。我认为这类工程师的弹性更高。所以你会看到很多公司觉得，哦，工程师越多我们就能做得更多更快。他们会直接与客户沟通，用AI飞速调整产品。

For the best companies, engineers will react as this translation layer. They will need to be more thinking more in terms of product, being a product manager. I think there's a higher elasticity on such engineers. So you might see many companies being like, oh, more engineers we can do even more, even faster. They are out talking to the customers and changing things with AI super fast.

那么优秀工程师所需的技能会随时间改变吗？

Do the skills required to be a good engineer then change with time?

当然。我认为通才在AI时代会越来越重要，这样你才能理解事物如何整合成更大的整体，然后用AI来弥补你未来不太需要的深度专业知识。

Yes. Definitely. Like, I think being a generalist becomes more and more important with everything in everything with with AI so that you can understand how things will come together as a larger whole, and then you use AI for the deep expertise that you don't need in the future as much.

说到必备技能，现在很多人都在问：如果Lovable将成为我们需要的最后一个软件，我还有必要学计算机科学吗？你会怎么建议你犹豫是否要读大学计算机系的弟弟？大学并不是

When you think about skills required too, there's a lot of people who are asking today, should I bother studying computer science if we're gonna see Lovable be the last software that we ever need? How would you advise your little brother questioning whether it's GCS at university? University is not

最佳学习场所。学什么专业并不重要。你应该走出去真正理解世界如何运转，明白工作如何转化为价值创造。这些在大学里学不到。所以大学更像是训练大脑学习新事物、结识有趣人群的途径。

the best place to learn. It doesn't matter what you're studying. You should be out there and really understand how the world works in terms of how work translates to value creation. And you don't learn that at university. And so university is like a way to train your brain to learn new things and meet a lot of interesting people.

你会鼓励自己的孩子上大学吗？这可是二十年后的事了。哦，预测二十年后的事很难说。我觉得这是人生中值得拥有的经历。何乐而不为呢？

Would you encourage your children to go to university? So this is now twenty years in the future pretty much. Oh, so it's hard to say to say something about twenty years in the future. I think it's a great experience to have had in life. Why not?

但这取决于你想达到什么结果。如果你想要一份能赚最多钱的工作，不，他们不应该上大学。

But it depends on what outcome you want to reach. If you want to have a job that where you make the most money, no, they shouldn't go to university.

我认为那些年的机会成本非常高。确实。尤其是在英国，基本上就是酩酊大醉地度过三年。是的。普遍情况就是如此。

I think the opportunity cost of those years is very high. True. In the in The UK in particular, just get very drunk for three years. Yeah. And that's generally how it is.

而且我们通常学习地理、历史这类通识学科。说实话这有点浪费时间——考虑到你那个年龄的精力、耐力以及大脑可塑性，本可以更高效地利用那些年。

And generally, we study generalist subjects like geography and history. Honestly, it is a little bit of a waste of time, in which case you can utilize those years so much better given your stamina, your energy, the plasticity of your brain at that age, which

所以我强烈反对这种做法。同意。如果你在那几年只做非常非常专业化的工作，可能会削弱你的通才能力。当然这里也存在权衡——大学能让你接触许多可能有用的多元概念。

is why I highly advocate against it. Agree. If you just do a very, very specialized job for those years, maybe you'll become less of a generalist. So there's, like, there's a trade off there as well, of course, that while as university, you're exposed to many different concepts which can be useful.

我们之前提到AI和企业。当今最大的企业在数据权限、安全性方面都无法有效运用AI。未来十年我们会看到现有巨头权力的最大更迭吗？

We mentioned earlier AI and enterprise. When you look at the biggest enterprises today, they're not able for data, for permissioning, for security to use AI. Are we going to see the biggest shift in incumbent power in the next ten years?

如果他们无法适应，就会有能适应的新玩家入场。银行业就是典型——银行本质是软件公司，全靠软件系统运作。传统银行转型太慢了。是的。

So if they're not enabled, there's someone else that will come in and be enabled. I think you see this in banking, like, for example, where bank is a software company, right? It's all about software systems. The old banks are moving much slower. Yes.

会有一些公司从零开始为AI重构系统。任何熟悉客户需求、了解法律要求的人都能更快打造优质客户体验。当然老牌企业也有优势，比如银行业积累的信任度。不同企业市场领域的更迭幅度尚难预估，但许多公司将被更便宜优质的替代品颠覆。

There is going to be some companies that are like built ground up for an AI to change their systems and anyone who's exposed to like customers understanding the legal requirements and so on can move much, much faster in creating a good customer experience. So yes, I imagine there are also some benefits of being having been around for a long time in the enterprise. Like banking, there's a certain level of trust and so on. So I don't know how large the shift is going to be in across different segments of the enterprise market. Many companies will be get disrupted by cheaper, much, much better alternatives.

有趣。你提到信任——你认为用户和客户的忠诚度如何？是容易转换还是天生忠诚？

Interesting. You said there about trust. How loyal do you think lovable users and customers are? Do you think there's a high propensity to switch and an ease to switch, or do you think people fundamentally are loyal?

五五开。有些人极度忠诚，但多数人会在品牌伤害他们时转向，他们追求成本与能力的主观最大化。若能同时满足这两类人——提供最优性价比的产品，就能通吃市场。

It's fifty fifty. Like, some people are just super super loyal to a brand. Many people I mean, if you do something that hurts your brand, they will switch, and they're just out there looking for maximizing some kind of cost versus capability subjective. You can think about both of those groups simultaneously. Like, if you have the best product with the best value, you're going to get everyone.

我们谈到巨头企业面临的威胁。你认为当今CEO和企业领袖最该问却未问的、关于AI如何影响企业未来的关键问题是什么？

We we spoke about kind of people being threatened, large incumbents. What questions should large CEOs, business leaders be asking today about the future of AI and their companies and how they use it that they're not asking, do you think?

这家公司面临的最大瓶颈之一将是组织内部人员的某种变革管理。我认为他们应该询问与我们类似的公司是如何极其迅速地实现管理变革的，并将这个话题引入领导层讨论，或许还要推广至整个组织。只需研究那些变革管理非常成功的案例，然后具体分析我们应该使用哪些AI工具。我们是否应该100%基于Lovable构建产品，以便所有人能在那里协作？我们是否需要招聘一些新型人才来

One of the biggest bottlenecks for this company is going to be some kind of change management for the humans in the organization. And I think they should be asking how have similar companies to ours changed management very, very, very rapidly and get that conversation into the leadership room and then maybe across the entire organization. Just study those examples of where change management has been very successful and then look at specifically which AI tools should we be using. Should we be building our product on top of Lovable 100% because then everyone can collaborate there? Should we hire some new type of people that come

带动全员升级？你提到了速度，之前也谈到了人才。坦白说，老兄，我受够了人们总说欧洲人只关心浓缩咖啡和度夏，七八月份就不工作这种论调。

in and upscale everyone? You said about speed. You said about talent earlier. Bluntly, dude. I get really fed up with everyone saying that Europeans are about espresso and take in the summer, and it's August and July, we're not gonna work.

我倡导一种非常激进的工作文化，也就是众所周知的996。没错。对于在追求胜利的过程中，坚定不移的勤奋工作比平衡更重要这一点，你怎么看？

And I advocate for a very aggressive work culture, which, you know, is nine nine six. Yep. How do you feel about the importance of unwavering hard work over balance in the desire to win?

我认为在十年周期内，我会主张某种平衡。但如果是两年周期内，如果你真的在乎某件事，那么你应该确保自己保持锻炼、睡眠充足，或许做些能放松的事情，然后全力以赴地工作。这才是你该做的。

I think over a ten year period, I would advocate for some balance. But if over a two year period, if you really care about something, then you should make sure that you have, like, you get your exercise, you sleep in really, really well, maybe something that you know relaxes you, and then just work your ass off. That's what you should be doing.

那么你同意Cognition公司斯科特的观点吗？他在雇佣员工或收购公司后明确表示：每周工作六天，必须坚定不移地拼搏。如果不想接受，可以离开。

Do you agree then with Scott from Cognition, who clearly said to all wins of employees after hiring them or buying the company, it's six days a week. It's unwaveringly relentless. And if you don't wanna sign up for that, you can leave.

我们的理念是：你在这里的产出要是其他公司员工的十倍。要实现这一点，你需要才华横溢、业务精湛且高度专注。对某些人来说，这意味着投入大量时间，但并非对所有人都如此。我关注的是实际影响——如果明天你说要离职，我是否会强烈挽留，认为你是公司不可或缺的存在？

In how we think about it is that you are here to have 10 x impact over the other people at other companies. If you don't have 10 x impact so for well, you do that by being very talented, being good at your job, and being very focused. For some people, you need to put in a shit ton of hours, but not for everyone. Am I seeing the impact? Am I seeing that if you would tell me you're leaving tomorrow, I will be like, no, you are like such an important part of this company, you have to stay.

这就是我推动绩效和影响力的方式。你会做'核心员工测试'吗？

And that's how I push performance and impact. Do you do the keepers test?

会。这改变了你构建团队的方式吗？

Yeah. Has it made you change how you construct teams?

确实。它始终提醒着我要不断思考如何扩大影响力。在考虑组织架构时，我会评估当前设置是否最有利于成功。文化是极其重要的部分——如果人员变动太频繁，会损害文化和工作方式。

Yeah. I think it always under makes it clear to people that I need to always figure out am I like, how can I have more impact? And then I think in terms of what does this organization look like, is it optimally set up to to succeed right now? Culture is such an important part. If you just like throwing people around too much, it's it hurts the culture and the ways of working.

但通过'这个组织如何完美配置才能取胜'的商业推演，确实塑造了我的组织建设思路。

But doing this business exercise of saying, who is this organization set up perfectly to win, definitely shapes how I build the organization.

你之前在Revvude提到尼克。他给出了我认为关于文化的最佳回答。你知道，我做过3000场节目。当谈到文化时，就像第一性原理思考。我就想，去他的。

You mentioned Nick earlier at Revvude. He gave me the best answer I think ever on culture. You know, I've done 3,000 shows. When culture comes up, it's like first principles thinking. I'm like, fuck it.

我们会把这段剪掉。总是这样。但他说的最棒的话是，他说，我不考虑文化。我考虑的是赢。人类幸福最大的决定因素是成长和发展。

We'll edit this bit out. Always. But he said the best thing ever, he said, I don't think about culture. I think about winning. The single biggest determinant of human happiness is growth and development.

当你赢的时候，你处于最佳的位置去成长和发展。所以如果我创造了赢的条件，你就会成长和发展。除此之外，人们还喜欢积累财富和发展。是的。你会通过赢来积累这些，因为你的股价会上涨。

And when you are winning, you are most optimally positioned to grow and develop. And so if I create the conditions to win, you will grow and develop. And then supporting that, the other thing that people like to do is accumulate wealth as well as development. Yep. And you will accumulate that by winning because of your share price increase.

那是

It's That's

一句很好的引用。

a good quote.

这是一个很好的思考方式，我认为也是一样的，就是如果我们赢了，每个人都会开心。很少有地方每天都在输，日复一日，却还非常开心。是的，这不会发生。如果你能改变，你今天的文化有什么不好的地方？

It's a really good way to think about it, which and I think it's the same, which is, like, if we win, everyone will be happy. There's very few places where they're losing every day, day in, day out, and blissfully happy. Yes. It doesn't happen. What's not great about your culture today if you could change it?

有一种性格类型的人会采取很多主动。他们对新想法和做新颖的事情非常兴奋。随着公司成熟，这仍然是一个重要的因素，但你的首要任务是让你现有的东西保持高质量，并提高你所做的一切的质量。我希望我们能更像模因化，让我们提高质量，改进我们的做事方式，慢一点，这样我们才能真正快速前进。

There's a certain personality type that has takes a lot of initiative. They're very excited about new ideas and doing novel things. And as your company matures, that isn't still an important ingredient, but you need the first priority to make what you have high quality to continue to be high quality and improve the quality across everything you're doing. And I want us to be even more like memeifying, let's improve the quality, let's improve how we do things, move slow so that we can move really, really fast.

你想在哪些地方花时间，哪些地方不花时间，更加深思熟虑？

You want to be more thoughtful around where you spend time and where you don't?

是的。所以这个牛仔与农民的比喻，农民是为长期优化事情，我认为我们可以在这方面多做一点。但我们总是要平衡

Yeah. So this cowboy versus farmer analog where a farmer is like optimizing things for the long term, and I think we can do a bit more of that optimizing things for the long term. But but we always strike the balance of doing

你还在公司建设的那个阶段。我其实更喜欢为短期优化。我不知道你是否在中国待过很长时间，或者与中国开发团队合作过，但他们在建设心理上令人难以置信。他们不断地为短期优化，然后就像用胶带粘住一样，粘住，粘住。这就是他们为什么能做得这么快这么多的原因。

You're in that phase of company build yet. I I actually prefer the optimize for the short term. I don't know if you spent much time in China or with, like, Chinese development teams, but they are unbelievable in their psychology around build. They optimize for the short term incessantly and then just like sticky tape the shit, sticky tape the shit, sticky tape the shit. And that is often how they're able to do so much so fast.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你的产品市场契合度非常明确，拥有需要捍卫的品牌，你就不能随意发布。你可以通过冲刺阶段来摆脱创新困境，但真正需要关注的是这些部分是否整合得当，花大量时间在组织和产品内部进行调整，以确保高质量并维持这种高质量，从而在这个基础上更快地构建。你能

If you have a super clear product market fit, you have a brand to defend, you cannot you cannot issue. You can do that in like sprints to move out of innovate, but you really need to focus on like, are these pieces put well together, spend a lot of time on moving things around in the organization in your in your product so that it has high quality, maintains high quality, and you can build faster upon that foundation. Can you

想象一下如果苹果公司说，哦，糟了。我们删了你的云端数据。抱歉。是的。听起来很糟糕。

imagine if Apple were like, oh, fuck. We deleted your cloud. Sorry. Yeah. Sounds very good.

太糟了。我之前提到欧洲和夏天以及行动不够快的问题。你之前说过在欧洲创业更好。虽然我不想把这变成欧洲的广告，但为什么你认为在欧洲创业更好？

All bad. I said earlier about like Europe and summer and not moving fast enough. You said before that it is better to build in Europe. And I don't want this to be like an advert for Europe, but why do you think it's better to build in Europe?

欧洲有很多优点。当然美国也有一些更好的方面。我想证明的是，你可以在欧洲打造出一款划时代的产品、一个跨代际的公司团队。其中部分挑战是困难模式。哪些方面是困难模式？

There are many good things about Europe. There are also good things, things that are better in The US, for example. I want to prove that you can build a generational product, a generational company team from Europe. And part of it is on hard mode. What parts are on hard mode?

困难模式在于，这里的网络生态不够完善——无论是个人还是公司，在构建一个卓越跨国企业的各个阶段，都缺乏足够的经验和背景资源。

The hard mode is that there's a where the network isn't as great in how many individuals and companies that have worked on and have context for like all the different stages of building an amazing multinational company.

完全同意。欧洲没有像埃琳娜·维尔纳这样的人物。

Completely agree. There are no Elena Vernas in Europe.

是的。也许我们很快会有。这就是困难模式。我认为资金渠道、能快速提供大量分销资源的人脉、以及品牌建设支持都是挑战。

Yeah. Maybe we'll get here soon. That's hard mode. I think access to capital, people that will quickly give you a lot of distribution, help you with distribution and and brand.

你真觉得资金渠道是个实质性问题吗？我认为欧洲实际上有大量资金

Do think access to capital is a genuine problem? I think there's so much money in Europe that actually is

如我所说，这对我们不是瓶颈。不。确实不是。

As I said, it's not a bottleneck for us. No. Yeah. It's not.

而你即将开始

And you're gonna start to

很快你就会看到，我相信你可能已经注意到了，任何离开Lovable的人都会立刻获得投资意向书。百分之百的成功率。我认为在旧金山和纽约这样的世界中心舞台更容易获得资源分配。但我们从斯德哥尔摩实现了这一点，这很好地证明了你可以

see very soon, I'm sure you're probably already seeing it, but Lovable spinouts, where anyone who leaves Lovable will get a term sheet straight away. 100%. I think it's easier to get distribution to be on like the center world stage in San Francisco and New York, But we've been able to pull that off from Stockholm, which is a good proof that you can

在这里做到。你认为为什么能成功？我对此有自己的理论。

do it from here. Why do you think you've been able to do it? I I have my theory on why I think you've been successful.

我认为关键在于故事讲述和分享我们在公司所做的一切，赋能使用Lovable的其他人讲述他们的故事，这部分很重要。这就是我们突破的方式。我们明白应该公开构建并分享你的进展。

I think it's about storytelling and and sharing everything we're doing at the company and empowering other people who are using Lovable, telling their stories, a bit of that. That's how we broke been breaking through. We understand that you should be building in public and share what you're doing.

透明度至关重要，人们喜欢追随真实的人。你将两者结合得非常好——你对ARR增长的透明度令人难以置信（当然增长数据漂亮时容易做到），但你的透明程度是大多数人无法企及的，而且由你亲自引领这种文化。个人魅力（你和Anton）与ARR增长的双重组合，正是以这种方式推动成功的关键。这才是更难复制的部分。

Transparency is everything, and people like to follow people. And you've combined the two very well, is you're incredibly transparent around your ARR growth. Easy to be when it's as good as it is, but you're incredibly transparent in a way that most people aren't, and then it's led by you and your voice. And the two combinations of, like, cult of personality, you and Anton, and then you and ARR growth is what really drives the success in that way. So that's kind of what's harder.

优势在哪？为什么每个人都该在欧洲创业？我是说

What's better? Like, why why should everyone build their company in Europe? I I mean,

我们现在是斯德哥尔摩最大的人才磁石，这太棒了。在旧金山或纽约要做到这点困难得多。我们可以真正吸纳未被充分利用的人才，通过10倍更好的文化和工作方式，与优秀的同事一起将他们的效能提升10倍。所以能成为顶尖选择我认为是最重要的。欧洲有一种谦逊、低ego的文化，团队协作非常高效，这种用更少资源做更多事的思维方式在这里更强大。

we are the biggest talent magnet in Stockholm right now, which is amazing. You can't it's much much more difficult to be that in San Francisco or New York. We can really pick up all the underutilized talent and 10x their performance by being in a 10x better culture or ways of working and like with with amazing colleagues. So being able to be that like top one is I think the biggest one. There's a culture of like humility and low ego and working really well together as a team that I think is stronger for in Europe and like this way of thinking in terms of efficiency and doing much much more with less.

硅谷天生就有更高的

You have inherently higher churn in

人才流失率。当你某天不顺心时，OpenAI会给你开更高待遇，然后你就...算了，我甚至愿意去OpenAI。这阻碍了团队内部知识的复合积累，而我认为这极其珍贵。没错。

the valley. When you have a bad day, OpenAI offer you a bigger package, and it's like, nah. I'll even do OpenAI. And that prevents the compounding of knowledge within teams, which I think is so valuable. Yep.

如果Lovable设在硅谷，会没那么成功吗？

Would Lovable be less successful if it were in the valley?

老实说我不知道。但我觉得无论如何它都会非常成功。

I honestly don't know. I think it would be it would be very successful regardless.

你有考虑过搬迁吗？

Did you ever think about moving?

想过。就在我准备创业时，所有人都劝我去旧金山。但我们坚持在斯德哥尔摩发展，并在这里找到了优秀人才。我很满意这个...

Yes. When I was about to start the company, everyone was, of course, telling me I should go to SF. But we just kept building, and we found some great people in in Stockholm. So we we kept building it from from here. I'm happy how

最终结果。这是你做出的决定，而且效果非常好。在Lovable的发展历程中，有哪些事是现在的你凭借经验和 hindsight 希望当初没做的？

it turned out. That was a decision which you, you know, made, and it worked out very well. What did you do in the lovable journey that with the benefit of hindsight and some experience, you wish you hadn't done?

听着，创业初期我们有个构想。愿景很清晰，但实施步骤却不明确。当时有个开源社区对我创业前几个月开发的GPT Engineer工具很感兴趣。我认为我们不该完全抛弃这个基础，而应该百分百专注于未来——比如打开浏览器就能直接构建产品的Lovable愿景。

Look, when we started, we had this this idea. The vision was very clear. The sequencing was not so clear in what what we should be doing. We we had this open source community that was kind of excited about a tool I made a few months like before we started the company, GPT engineer. I think we shouldn't just like scrap that completely and be a 100% focused on what's the future look like in terms of building, opening your browser, just building your product there, which is lovable.

为什么要

Why should

彻底放弃？你应该

you have scrap that? You should

集中全部精力推进这个方向。

be very, very focused on doing that.

这对客户开发和反馈不关键吗？

Was it not crucial for customer development, customer feedback?

不，我不这么认为。当然我们有过整合计划来创造更大价值。开源对很多企业确实有用，但从极致专注的角度看，做些过于边缘化的事情就是错误决策。这绝对是教训之一。

No. I don't I don't think so. And there was, of course, a plan for how to incorporate it to and get more value together. Open source can be very very useful for many businesses with the perspective of maximal focus, it was just a bad idea to do things that were like a bit too tangentially related. So that's definitely one thing.

我们经常讨论专注一件事，即找出公司的瓶颈所在，解决这个瓶颈才是真正快速推进的最佳方式。

And this we talk a lot about doing one thing, finding the bottleneck for the company, solving for that bottleneck is the best way to move really, really fast.

明天董事会上你们要讨论的具体瓶颈是什么？

What is the bottleneck that you'll be discussing in the board tomorrow?

我认为影响我们长期发展的瓶颈在于如何识别技术产品——即那些能将产品推向下一阶段、同时在多个前沿领域创新的工程师团队。这是长期视角。若着眼于当前产品，瓶颈在于如何赋予AI更多能力，打造真正流畅的用户体验，并增强其功能，让用户能在Lovable平台上全面构建和发展业务。另一个瓶颈是如何在服务海量企业客户的同时，持续获取他们的喜爱与需求反馈，就像我们专注于服务初创企业创始人那样。

I think the bottleneck for our long term future is how we identify the technical product, so engineers that will take the product to its next phase and innovate on many, many fronts at the same time. That's in the long term. If you think about the product today, it's giving our AI more capabilities that are really like make it really polished user experience and give it more of those capabilities so that you can build out your full company, grow your business on top of Lovable. Then a bottleneck is for how we serve all this extreme amount of enterprise customers love and pull from them at the same time as we focus, like, prior one is for the for founders building on Loveable.

Lovable会组建企业销售团队吗？会转型为企业服务公司吗？

Will Lovable have an enterprise sales team Yes. And become an enterprise company?

我们不会转型为企业服务公司，但会建立企业销售团队。这是什么概念？是的，我并不为此感到焦虑。这本质上就是与客户沟通、理解需求，确保他们能通过产品获得价值。

They will not become an enterprise company, but but they will have us enterprise sales team. And what is that? Yes. I'm not so nervous about it. That is just about talking and understanding your customers, making sure they have the tools to get value from the products.

这就是我对这部分的看法。当然市面上有很多自上而下的企业销售团队，他们忙着应酬CEO们——这不是我们要走的路。

That that is what how I see that that part. And there are course many enterprises like top down enterprise sales team that hustle themselves to wine and dine CEOs. I I don't that's not what we're going to do.

对你们来说最难招聘的职位是什么？

What is the hardest role to hire for for you?

我认为工程领导者的招聘非常困难，因为很难预测他们过往的成就在我们组织中会如何转化。

So I think hiring engineering leaders is very difficult because it's so hard to predict how their past performance will translate to our organization.

你在招聘上犯过错吗？是的，我确实犯过些错误。在招聘过程中，你最后悔做过什么？

Have you made mistakes on hiring? Yes. I've made some mistakes. What did you do that you wish you hadn't done on hiring?

我后悔没有深入细节、过度放权，更后悔没有更主动地确认：这个人是否真正渴望达成目标？他们是否对成果感到兴奋，具有内在驱动力？

I wish I was in the details when I and not delegate too much, and and I I wish I was more proactive about, like, does this person want to reach the outcomes? Are they excited, inherently motivated about the outcomes?

当你谈到领导者时，我觉得有个非常有趣的点——我想到了你们联合创始人，他在OpenAI发布视频中出镜了。是的。令我印象深刻的是，恕我直言，这是我第一次看到他而非你站在最前沿。考虑到你一直是Lovable的公众形象，你如何看待你们两人之间的曝光度分配？

I think something that's really interesting when you say about kind of leaders there is I thought of, you know, your cofounder, who was in the video for the OpenAI release. Yep. And what struck me with that is, respectfully, it was one of the first times I've seen him front and center, not you. How do you think about exposure between the two of you, given you are very much the face of Lovable?

我很希望Fabian能获得更多曝光，但我也希望他能专注于产品开发。这才是他的重心。如果人们反复看到同一个人，会更容易与Lovable建立情感连接。目前这个人是我，我认为未来也会是我。你觉得...

I'd love for Fabian to have more exposure, but I also want him to be focused on building the product. That's what he focused on. It's much easier for people to relate to Lovable if they see one person and keep seeing that one person. Today, that is me, and I think it will continue to be me. What do you

你认为成功创业搭档能以Lovable这样的速度扩张，最关键的秘密是什么？

think is the biggest secret to a successful cofounding pair scaling at the speed of lovable scaling?

最重要的是创始人纯粹的应变能力和适应能力。如果这些素质都很强——当然你们必须能协作。只要足够谦逊，就能成事。但若想达到极致配合，以我和Fabienne为例：他不太喜欢标新立异的方式。

The most important thing is just the the raw horsepower and adaptability of the founders. If those are maxed out or if those are high, I mean, you must be able to work together. If you have sufficiently low ego, it's going to work. But if you really want to work extremely well together, I'll take an example which is Fabienne and me. He's not very big on doing some weird new way of doing things.

他总追求最大程度的简化。他相当内向沉默，直到对最重要的事情形成明确观点。而我完全站在光谱另一端，总说'Fabi，我们应该试试这个疯狂的新东西'。这种两极分化反而让我们彼此都更有成效。

He's just like simplify it as much as possible. He's quite introvert and quiet until he's like has really shaped an opinion about what's the most important thing. And I'm on the polar side of the spectrum and saying, Fabi, we should use this new crazy thing. And and that's like polarity is actually very productive for both of us.

考虑到这些，再想到你已婚且婚姻美满。你认为成功婚姻的要素是什么？

When you think about that and then you think about you're married and very happily married. When you think about successful marriages, what makes the marriage so successful?

我和Fabian可以讨论任何事，这极具建设性。我们能翻遍每个细节，在任何事情上互相挑战。我们都保持着极大的谦逊——我认为这非常珍贵且重要。我的婚姻也是如此。

Me and Fabian, we can talk about anything and that's extremely productive. And we can talk about turning every stone and challenging each other around anything. And we have a lot of like humility. I think that's very valuable and very important. And the same is true in my marriage.

谦逊。谦逊。是的，极其谦逊。

Humility. Humility. Yes. A lot of humility.

成功会让婚姻更艰难还是更轻松？

Does success make marriage harder or easier?

如果你完全抽不出时间陪伴伴侣，那显然会更困难。

I mean, if you have zero hours to spend time with your partner, it makes it more difficult.

我也注意到90%的恋爱关系常因金钱问题陷入困境，随着生活成本上升，这成了难以避免的难题。对许多人而言，这最终并未构成困扰。它改变了你的婚姻吗？并没有。

I also look at 90% of relationships often struggle, and a lot of arguments is based on money, which is an inevitable thing that's very hard, especially as cost of living goes up. And for a lot of people, that then doesn't become a problem. Has it changed your marriage? Not so much. No.

谦虚的瑞典人，对吧？

Very humble Swedes, aren't you?

是的。自从Lovable成功后，我的生活方式并未改变。你呢？或许我在财务决策上考虑得更少，但生活方式基本如常。

Yes. We I haven't changed my lifestyle since Lovable was successful. Have you not? Maybe I think less about monetary decisions, but, no, lifestyle is pretty much the same.

2026年的Lovable产品会是什么样？

What does the lovable product look like at the 2026?

它是你从构思阶段到业务成长的完美联合创始人，包括客户获取后的产品优化——就像Ilyana正在做的，优化产品增长、产品本身及客户沟通渠道（无论是邮件还是其他营销渠道）。所以你们覆盖全链条？是的。一站式解决整个产品生命周期。

I mean, it's your perfect cofounder that you go to with your idea from the idea stage, but also all the way up to growing your business once you have customers and taking care of, like, what Ilyana is doing, optimizing the product for growth, optimizing the product and optimizing your communication with your customers, be it through email or through different marketing channels. So you eat the whole stack then? Yes. One opinion to way to do the entire product life cycle.

你们从邮件营销到短信营销全包？

You do everything from email marketing to SMS marketing and everything in between?

没错。显然这也是企业希望构建产品的基础。现阶段个人和团队用它来开发企业级创意，而你们在这方面效率极高。

Yes. And and obviously, this is what an enterprise also wants to build their products on. In the interim, they are using it for individuals, like people in teams, building out ideas that the enterprise companies should be doing, and that you're doing that very, very, very productively.

模型基准测试和评估都是扯淡吗？我采访过Surge的Edwin。知道Surge吗？他们像Scale AI的竞争对手，但异常成功——零融资却年收12亿。

Is benchmarking for models bullshit and evaluation is bullshit? I had Edwin from Surge on the show. Do you know Surge? It's like the scale AI competitor, but it's actually phenomenally successful. It's never raised a dollar, and it's a billion 2 in revenue.

难以置信。他直接说基准评估就是胡扯。嗯。

It's unbelievable. Well And he was like, the benchmark evaluations are bullshit. Mhmm.

这些指标随时间推移越来越失真。古德哈特定律说：当某个指标成为目标，它就不再是好指标。所有基准测试最终都会这样。Lovable里哪个指标会逐渐失去意义？

I mean, they they turn more and more bullshit over time. There's something called Goodhart's Law. So when you start optimizing for a number, that number stops being a good measure for success, even if it was a great number for a measure of success previously. So that obvious that happens, like, with all benchmarks over time in some sense. What metric within lovable means less over time?

这意味着如果我们开始为此优化，它的意义就会减弱。对吧？我想一个意义减弱的例子是，有多少人会点击消息中的点赞按钮，因为这样我们就可以说些有趣的玩笑话，或者任何能莫名其妙促使人们更愿意点击按钮的内容——如果你想让人类点击按钮的话。然后我们就是在操纵这个指标了。对吧？

So it means less if we start optimizing for it. Right? And I guess one example where it means less, I guess, is how many people click the thumbs up button on messages because then we can say say fun jokes or whatever that for some reason just triggers people to be more they're asking the human click the button click the button if you want to do it. And and that's then we're hacking the metric. Right?

这只是一个例子。

So that's just one example.

老兄，我们来玩个快问快答。我会抛给你一些极其不公平的问题，你可以说说你的想法。准备好了吗？关于AI，你认为哪个广为流传的信念是完全错误的？

Dude, we're gonna do a quick fire round. I'm gonna hit you with some incredibly unfair questions, and you can give me your thoughts. Okay? What wildly held belief about AI do you think is just very wrong?

我认为AI比人类更聪明，但大多数人不同意。原因是它经常表现得非常非常愚蠢。但如果你提供完整上下文，或者专门为它的弱点构建系统，它在那些人类愚蠢的领域反而更聪明。

I think AI is smarter than humans, and most people don't agree. And the reason is that this oftentimes it's very, very stupid. But if you give it all the context or you have like you build a purposeful system for that what they are stupid at, it's smarter than humans.

你认为我们会看到发展进入平台期，还是持续保持指数级进步曲线？

Do you think we will see a plateauing, or do you think we will see a continuous exponential progression curve?

我认为在我们关心的领域会出现平台期，这些领域需要大量细微差异处理能力，以及同一个模型同时擅长多种任务的能力。但人们现在看着GPT-5

I think we'll see a plateauing on the things that we care about, which is a lot of nuance and, like, being good at all the different things at once in in in the same model. But people are looking at GPT five now

说我们正进入改进幅度越来越小的阶段。

and saying, we're hitting a stage where actually improvements are much more incremental.

你目前看到的是多个维度上同时出现的S型曲线。是的，我们会看到平台期。有些S型曲线我认为仍处于指数增长阶段，比如科学工程和生物工程领域——AI将继续呈指数级变得极其强大，催生大量新药物和医疗手段。

What you've seen so far is, like, the sigmoid curves across many different dimensions at the same time. And yeah, we're going to see we're going to see a a plateauing. There's some sigmoid curves where I I think we're still in this like exponential phase of the sigmoid curve. And those could be something like science and engineering and, like, bioengineering, where AI is just going to continue to, like, exponentially become extremely powerful and generate a lot of new medicines and new ways of treating health.

Brock、Anthropic、OpenAI。嗯。

Brock, Anthropic, OpenAI. Mhmm.

你可以用3.8美元投资OpenAI，1.8美元投资Anthropic，Grok我猜是100美元。你会投资哪个？做空哪个？我会投资Grok并做空Anthropic——不，我其实会做空OpenAI。为什么选择投资Grok却做空OpenAI？

You can invest in OpenAI at $3.80, Anthropic at $1.80, and Grok at, I think, it's a 100. Which one do you invest in? And which one do you short? I'd invest in Grok and probably short Anthropic because, no, I would I would short OpenAI. Why would you buy that Grok and short OpenAI?

我认为Grok团队的优势更明显。他们正在做一件我非常尊重的事——为数据整理部分招募‘传教士’，他们称之为AI辅导。在我看来，这个团队的士气比其他两个团队高得多，简直士气如虹。而OpenAI已经历了所有这些混乱。

I think it's more the slope on the Grok team. They have they're doing something which I respect a lot, which is to hire missionaries for the data curation part, and they call it AI tutoring. I think the morale is much, much better in that team than both of the other teams. Morale is super high. OpenAI has gone through all this mess.

对吧？Topgispro的士气也很高涨，而且据我所知，他们在企业端的增长更快。

Right? And Topgispro has good morale morale as well, and they're growing faster on the enterprise side from what I'm hearing.

你认为OpenAI会在消费者领域胜出，成为下一代谷歌，而Anthropic会赢得开发者和企业市场吗？

Do you think OpenAI wins the consumer in terms of, like, next generation Google and Anthropic wins the developer and the enterprise?

不。我认为会有其他我们尚未知晓的变数出现。

No. I think it's gonna be I don't want there's gonna be something else happening that we don't know what it is.

你觉得会出现一个尚未诞生的领先模型吗？比如来自中国的。你担心中国吗？

Do think that there will be a leading model that has not been created yet? Yes. From China. Do you worry about China?

中国公司不像我们这样理解用户需求，所以不太担心。但我确实认为有五成概率他们会在某个时间点拥有最好的模型，届时全球可能都在使用中国模型，这让我有些顾虑，因为...

Chinese companies are not as good as either we understand your users, so not very worried. I do think there's like a fifty fifty chance they will have the best model will be using a Chinese model at some point, and that makes me a bit concerned because I Do you

Lovable公司使用中国模型吗？如果可能的话

use Chinese models at Lovable? If we would

会的。不过我需要仔细研究细节，看看潜在风险。我们是否要提供数据给他们？我们不想。但说到底，我们只想为客户做出最佳选择。

Yeah. And I would look have to look into the details and see like what's bad about that. Do we give them data? We don't want to give them. But I I mean, we just wanna do what's best for our customers.

如果采用中国模型没有负面影响，那就会用。

If that's going for a Chinese model and there's no negatives, yes.

我完全同意。而且中国涌现的模型数量简直惊人，每周都有四五个新模型，每个都不逊色于前一个。

I completely agree. I think also just like the multitude of models coming out of China is just terrifying. When you look at every week, there's like four new ones, and they're all as good as the last one.

没错。而且蒸馏速度简直快得离谱。未来的模型会是开源还是闭源？哪种模型会胜出？最好的模型可能永远是闭源的，但如果你追求最大灵活性并希望围绕它建立某种开放生态系统，开源模型或许会成为大多数人的选择。

Yep. And the speed of distillation is just fucking insane. Are the models of the future open or closed? Like, which model wins? The best ones will always be closed, but if you want maximal flexibility and some kind of open ecosystem around it, it might be that open ones are the ones that most people choose.

你可以选择与任何在世或已故的人共进晚餐。你会选择

You can have dinner with anyone dead or alive. Who do

和谁共进晚餐，以及你会

you have dinner with and what do

问他们什么问题？我想我会选择牛顿，因为他既虔诚又极度聪明，我想聊聊他那个年代的生活以及他信仰宗教的原因。他发明了那么多东西，某种程度上是我的榜样，而且他已经去世了——除非我现在召唤他，否则无法见到他。

you ask them? I think I would have dinner with Newton because he was like religious and super smart and just like talk about how he was in his age and why he's religious. He's super like, he invented so many different things and he's a he's a bit of a role model and he's dead, so I can't meet him unless I say him now.

抱歉，这个我帮不上忙。根本找不到合适的开场白。天啊，这太神奇了。

Sorry. I I can't help with that one. There's no intro there that would work. Fuck. That's amazing.

哪家AI公司没有得到足够关注？就像我说的，对我来说搜索领域算一个，比如Scale AI，但它本质上是个更好的商业模式。几乎没人知道它，这太荒谬了。哪家公司本该备受关注却被忽视了？

What AI company do not enough people pay attention to? Like I said, search for me is one, which is like scale AI, but fundamentally a much better business. Barely anyone knows it, it's ridiculous. Which company does no one pay attention to that everyone should pay attention to?

我觉得浏览器公司很有意思。比如斯德哥尔摩的Strawberry，还有Dia和现在的Perplexity。我很好奇这些公司未来的发展。你觉得Perplexity会怎样？他们似乎想造自己的手机，我认为这是个不错的赌注。

I think the browser companies are interesting. So there's Strawberry, here's Stockholm, there's Dia and Perplexity now. I'm I'm very excited to see what happens to other of those companies. What do you think happens to Perplexity? So they're they want to create their phone, I think, and I think that's a good bet.

你会以180亿的估值投资他们吗？180亿。这取决于我还有什么其他选择。

Would you invest in them at 18,000,000,000? 18,000,000,000. It depends on what options I have.

你知道吗？太精彩了。你笑着就把话都说完了，真有意思。谁是公司里最具影响力或最讨人喜欢的非员工人士？

So you know? That's amazing. You laughed at just gonna say it all. That's very funny. Who's been the single most instrumental person or lovable not in the company?

哦，是Excel的Jenny。他负责过Miro的销售和CEO工作，也在Dropbox那个部门待过，我经常得到他的建议和帮助。最大的收获？他就是我的教练，我会和他讨论我的想法，然后他提问并告诉我需要在某些方面加强，比如某个领域需要更有条理。我太喜欢他了。

Oh, it's it's Jenny at Excel. Jenny, he ran sales and, like, CEO at Miro, and he was Dropbox at at that segment, and I get a lot of input and help from him. What's been the biggest? He's just my coach, and I I talk about how I think about things, and then he asks me questions and and tells me that you have to step up in this, like, a bit of structure in this area. I love him.

我有

I had

他在20次销售中表现非常出色。倒数第二个问题，你改变主意最多的是什么？

him on 20 sales, and he was fantastic. What have you changed your mind on most, penultimate one?

在Lovable的背景下，我曾认为我们应该在模型准备好之前就构建一个代理，因为模型开始为代理系统优化。但我意识到，不，不，不，你需要一个尽可能多的人今天就在使用的产品，这样你优化的不一定是AI，而是为这些用户优化整个用户体验，这才是你想要的数据飞轮。

In the context of Lovable, I thought we should be building an agent before the models were ready for it, and because the models were starting to get optimized for an agentic system. What I realized is that no, no, no, you need to have a product that as many people as possible are using today so that you can optimize not necessarily the AI, but this is optimize the entire user experience for those users and get that's that's your data flywheel that you wanna use.

你担心十年内大规模的就业替代吗？

Do you worry about job displacement at scale in a ten year time period?

我担心的是全球人类甚至不明白我们在这个星球上想要实现什么。如果白领工人失业等快速变化发生，人类会变得非常担忧、焦虑和害怕，一切都会失控。这才是我担心的。但如果我们能更深思熟虑一些，比如，好吧，如果会有大量的就业替代，这是我们认为应该做的，这是我们想要实现的，这是我们确保人们在此期间可以从事一些临时编造的工作的方式。

I worry about us humans globally not even understanding what we want to achieve on this planet. And if there's a lot of rapid change with like white collar workers being out of a job and humans we get super worried and concerned and scared, all hell is going to break loose. So that's what I'm worried about. But if we're a bit more thoughtful in terms of like, okay, if there will be insane amount of job displacement, this is kind of what we think we should do and This is what we wanna achieve. This is how we make sure people can make some made up job in the interim.

那么我们100%能解决这个问题。如今收入最高的10个工作中，有8个在15年前并不存在。

Then we will 100% solve that. Eight out of the top 10 paying jobs today did not exist fifteen years ago.

我一直觉得这是个有趣的统计数据。嗯。而且我们总是高估新技术带来的就业替代。

I always think that's an interesting stat. Mhmm. And we always overestimate job displacement with new technologies.

是的。我认为我们可能会远离一些非常光鲜的工作，人们会因此感到沮丧。就像以前当艺术家非常酷，但显然你无法靠艺术养活自己。现在我们会在很多知识工作中再次看到这种情况，但这会没事的。

Yeah. I think we're going to have maybe a shift away from some very glamorous jobs, which people will be get depressed by. Like, similarly to how being like an artist was like so fucking cool, but clearly you can't make anybody as an artist. And then we're gonna see that again now for a lot of knowledge work and like that's gonna be fine.

我的孩子是脑外科医生。脑外科医生。未来几年内不会有AI取代脑外科医生。

My kids brain surgeons. Brain surgeons. No AI is gonna come from brain surgeons for years.

也许吧。但你见过那些机器人吗？外科手术机器人，它们相当不错。

Maybe. Have you seen the robots though? The surgeon robots, they're pretty good.

说实话，你不会听到有人说‘我要选那个机器人版本’这种话。

I'm gonna be honest. You're not having people be like, I'm gonna choose the robot version of that.

对，没错。

Right. Yeah.

你还有其他关于AI的担忧吗？

Is there anything else that concerns you

当你展望未来时？人类非常擅长竞争。在许多情况下，这很棒。比如，这就是我们造就顶尖公司和伟大技术的方式。

with AI when you look forward? Humans, we're very good at competing. And in some cases, in many cases, that's amazing. Like, that's how we get top of best companies. Also, we get great technology.

但有些情况下，我们竞争过度最终引发战争。比如开始备战。我认为如果超级大国之间能更宏观地思考，就能避免AI瞬间消灭敌国全体人口这类无人真正愿见的灾难性场景被意外触发。是的，我担心在这个变化更快的世界里，人类的过度竞争会导致无人真正想要的结果。

But in some cases, we're competing and then we go to war with each other. Like, we start preparing for wars. And I think if we can be better at thinking big picture across across superpowers, that would prevent the scenario where you have like AI that can kill all people in the others like in the other nation in an instant and like that being triggered without us actually wanting that to happen. Yeah. I'm concerned that us being so competitive in a world where things happen much faster is going to lead to some unexpected results that no one really wants.

你最敬重的竞争对手是谁？OpenAI在产品打造上很强。未来会有其他基础模型实验室做得更好，这些才是我们该关注的。但重点还是用户需求——如何做出更好的产品。

Which competitor do you most respect? I think OpenAI is pretty good at building products. I think there's other foundation model labs that will do be even better at building products, and those are the ones we should think about for the future. But mainly focus on just what do our users want, how do we make them better products.

但你肯定研究过Figma、Bolt这些竞争对手吧？

But you must look across your Figma's, your Bolt's, your who

你敬重谁？我敬重Figma。对，Figma。

do you respect? I respect Figma. Yeah. Figma? Yeah.

为什么？因为他们擅长倾听用户并打造好产品。如果能将这种能力贯穿整个产品生命周期，他们会是非常强大的对手。

Why? They yeah. Because they're good at listening to their users and building a good product. And if they can translate that to the full product life cycle, they're a very formidable competitor.

如果一切按计划进行，我们达成所有目标，一切顺利。那样的话，到2030年——五年后的Lovable会在什么位置？

Everything goes to plan. We hit all of our numbers and everything works. If that is the case, where then is Lovable in twenty thirty, five years time?

我们是人类与AI交互最常用的界面，这是一个巨大的市场。老兄，面对面交流感觉好多了。我真的很享受这次会面。非常感谢你同意线下见面，我太喜欢了，伙计，这很有趣。

We're the the mostly used interface for humans to AI, and that's a very huge market. Dude, it's so much better doing it in person. I've so enjoyed this. Thank you so much for agreeing to do it in person, and I've loved it, man. It was fun.

你是个英雄，兄弟。

You're a hero, dude.

是的。能成为受人爱戴的投资人我无比感激，但更庆幸的是结识了安东这位了不起的新朋友。除了今天的对话，他一直是我非凡的伙伴。能与他共享这段旅程让我欣喜若狂。多么杰出的企业家啊，看到'可爱效应'如何激励了整个欧洲的年轻创业者群体，真是令人惊叹。

Yes. I'm incredibly grateful to be a lovable investor, but I'm also really grateful to have found a fantastic new friend in Anton. Beyond the conversation today, he's been a phenomenal buddy to me. I'm so thrilled to be able to share this journey with him. What a fantastic entrepreneur and incredible to see the lovable effect and how it has inspired a generation of young founders across Europe.

如果想观看节目，可以在YouTube搜索20 VC（数字2和0加VC）找到我。但在结束前，我特别感谢团队合作促成这期节目。不过我不喜欢的是要追踪分散在数十个平台、产品和工具中的信息数据——所以我们使用Coda，这个全球5万团队使用的全能协作平台，它能让大家保持同步。

If you wanna watch the show, you can find me on YouTube by searching for 20 VC. That's two zero VC on YouTube. But before we leave you today, I love seeing the team come together to make this show happen. What I don't love is trying to keep track of all the information, the data, and the projects that we're working on across dozens of platforms, products, and tools. That's why we use Coda, the all in one collaborative workspace that's helped 50,000 teams all over the world get on the same page.

Coda兼具文档灵活性与表格结构性，能促进深度协作与快速创新。其开箱即用的Coda Brain智能解决方案更是颠覆性突破。依托Grammarly技术，Coda正进入创新扩张新阶段，旨在重新定义AI时代的生产力。无论是要在灵活中梳理混乱的初创公司，还是寻求更好协同的企业组织，Coda都能适配工作方式。这个无缝工作空间可连接Salesforce、Jira、Asana、Figma等数百种工具，帮助团队革新工作流程，高效完成任务。

Offering the flexibility of docs with the structure of spreadsheets, Coda facilitates deeper teamwork and quicker creativity. And their turnkey AI solution, the intelligence of Coda Brain, is a game changer. Powered by Grammarly, Coda is entering a new phase of innovation and expansion aiming to redefine productivity for the AI era. Whether you're a start up looking to organize the chaos while staying nimble or an enterprise organization looking for better alignment, Coda matches your working style. Its seamless work space connects to hundreds of your favorite tools, including Salesforce, Jira, Asana, and Figma, helping your teams transform their rituals and do more faster.

立即访问coda.i0/20vc，初创公司可免费获得团队版六个月使用权。网址是c0da.i0/20vc（注：此处保留原域名拼写）。当Coda保持团队协同时，Acuity Scheduling则确保时间管理——本节目由这款灵活调度软件赞助，它能让你专注于重要事务：管理日历、接收安全付款、提供符合品牌调性的预约体验。

Head over to coda.i0/20vc right now and get six months off the team plan for startups for free. That's coda, c0da,.i0/20vc and get six months off the team plan for free, coda. Iotwentyvc. And while Coda keeps our team aligned, Acuity Scheduling ensures our time stays on track. This show is brought to you by Acuity Scheduling, the flexible scheduling software that helps you focus on what matters most: With Acuity, you can manage your calendar, you can accept secure payments, offer clients a seamless booking experience that reflects your brand.

使用赠送订阅后，我的时间管理发生了革命性变化。尤其喜爱在线预约功能：客户可随时预约/改期，预约页面会显示我的品牌标识和配色。日历管理工具可设置缓冲时间并同步其他日历，避免日程冲突。通过Stripe或PayPal收取定金或全款，整个过程专业流畅。

I've been using my complimentary subscription, and it's been a game changer for staying organized and saving time. I especially love online booking. Clients can book, reschedule or cancel anytime and the booking page looks fully branded with my logo and colors. The calendar management tools let me set buffer times and sync with other calendars so I never feel overbooked. And with secure payments, I can collect deposits or full payments upfront through Stripe or PayPal, making the process smooth and professional.

访问acuityscheduling.com/20vc获取免费试用，订阅时使用优惠码20VC20可享首单8折。说到优秀企业，别忘了客户留存的核心——信任是商业终极货币。为此全球超1万家公司选择Vanta：其智能AI能将SOC2、ISO27001等合规认证流程缩短至数周，自动化完成90%工作，集中管理风险。

Head over to acuityscheduling.com/20vc for a free trial, and when you are ready to launch, use the offer code 20VC20 to save 20% off your first Acuity Scheduling subscription. And speaking of incredible companies, don't forget what really keeps those customers coming back. Trust is the ultimate currency in business, and today, customers expect it faster than ever. And that's why over 10,000 global companies trust Vanta. Vanta automates up to 90% of the work for in demand compliance standards like SOP two, ISO 27,001 and more using smart AI to centralize workflows, manage risk and get you audit ready in weeks, not months.

从此告别文书追缴，专注业务成交。IDC新报告显示Vanta用户年均获益53.5万美元——惊人的是平台成本三个月即可收回，这些数据我之前完全不了解。

So you can stop chasing paperwork and start closing deals. And a new IDC report found that Vanta customers achieve $535,000 per year in benefits. That's insane. And the platform pays for itself in three months. I had no idea about these.

无论高速发展还是刚刚起步，Vanta都能连接权威审计师和专家，助你建立客户信任。首年立减1000美元，请访问vanta.com/20vc。一如既往感谢各位支持，敬请期待我在希腊录制的精彩节目——这将是一次充满度假趣味的特别企划。

Whether you're growing fast or just getting started, Vanta connects you with trusted auditors and experts, support to help you build trust with customers. Get a thousand dollars off your first year at vanta.com/20vc. That's vanta.com/20vc. As always, I so appreciate all your support, and stay tuned for an incredible episode where I'm recording from Greece. So this will be a fun one from holiday.