听众最爱：迈克尔·马格 | 开拓脑机接口的未来

你可能已经注意到，这个月我们将为您带来《生命意义》系列，并重温一些最具变革性的剧集。

As you probably noticed, this month we're bringing you our Life of Purpose series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes.

敬请收听，探索关于健康、表现和社区福祉的专家见解与实用策略，旨在帮助您实现个人与职业的圆满。

Tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on health, performance, and community well-being, aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment.

如果您订阅我们的通讯，不仅能获得每期访谈核心观点的摘要，系列结束后还将免费获赠《生命意义》电子书。

If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free Life of Purpose eBook.

您只需访问unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose即可。

All you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose.

再次提醒，网址是unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose。

Again, that's unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose.

在开发该领域技术的五家公司中，其中三家要么采用这种基础方案，要么是其衍生方案，即——

Of the five companies that are developing technology in the space, three of the five are doing something that is either that or is a derivative of that basic approach, I.

——

E.

通过某种方式将电极穿透植入大脑。

Getting electrodes into the brain by penetrating into the brain in one way, shape, or form.

所以这就是BlackRock、paradromics和neural length这三家公司。

And so that's BlackRock, paradromics, and neural length.

他们采用的方式略有不同，但这基本上就是核心方法。

And they're doing it in in slightly different ways, but but that's kind of the fundamental approach.

我们正在开发（或者说已经开发出）一种放置在大脑表面的电极阵列。

We are developing or we've developed an array that sits on the surface of the brain.

它拥有数量惊人的电极。

It has incredibly a huge number of electrodes.

在略大于一平方厘米的面积内就有24个电极。

So a 24 electrodes within, you know, sort of a little more than a square centimeter.

而且这个阵列非常薄，只有人类头发五分之一粗细。

And the array is incredibly thin, so it's a fifth of the width of a human hair.

因此它能完美贴合大脑表面。

So it sits really conformally on the surface of the brain.

那些电极中有95个直径仅为50微米，相当于人类头发一半粗细。

And those electrodes, 95 of them are 50 microns in diameter, so half the width of a human hair.

肉眼几乎看不见它们。

So you can barely see them with the naked eye.

它们采用光刻技术制造，这与制造半导体芯片的技术相同。

And they're manufactured using photolithography, which is like the same technology that's used to make, semiconductor chips.

由于这种高分辨率，你能获得极其详细的大脑活动图像。

And because of that high resolution, you get an incredibly detailed picture of the brain's activity.

我是斯里尼·拉奥，这里是《无可置疑的创意》播客，在这里你将透过窗口，了解那些最具创新和创造力的思想家的故事与见解——他们发起了运动、建立了蓬勃发展的企业、撰写了畅销书籍，并创造了极其有趣的艺术作品。

I'm Srini Rao, and this is the unmistakable creative podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds who started movements, built thriving businesses, written best selling books, and created insanely interesting art.

更多内容，请访问unmistakablecreative.com查看我们的500期节目存档。

For more, check out our 500 episode archive at unmistakablecreative.com.

迈克尔，欢迎来到《无可置疑的创意》。

Michael, welcome to the unmistakable creative.

非常感谢你抽时间加入我们。

Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

非常感谢。

Thanks so much.

很高兴来到这里。

Glad to be here.

是啊。

Yeah.

能邀请到你真是我的荣幸。

It is my pleasure to have you here.

你是迈克尔·夏恩推荐给我的一长串嘉宾中的一位，他总是推荐最了不起的客人，所以完全不用有压力。

So you're, like, one of a long line of people who has been referred to me by Michael Shine, who always refers the most amazing guests, so no pressure at all.

不过，他跟我简单介绍了你的工作，当我听到‘脑植入’这个词时，我就想，好吧。

But, you know, he told me a bit about what you did, and when I heard the words brain implant, I thought, okay.

没错。

Yeah.

我一定要和这家伙聊聊。

I definitely gotta talk to this guy.

这正是一直以来我好奇的事情。

Like, this is something that I've been wondering about.

但在深入探讨这些之前，你的父母从事什么工作？这对你的人生和职业选择产生了怎样的影响？

But before we get into all of that, what did your parents do for work, and how did that end up shaping what you've ended up doing with your life and your career?

嗯。

Yeah.

我的父母有着非常不同，但某种程度上又互补的职业。

My my parents had, you know, very different, and I I'd say in some way complementary careers.

我父亲一生都从事商业和金融工作，并通过在各种慈善机构担任董事会成员参与社区服务。

My dad was in business and finance his whole life and, you know, was was involved in the community through board service on various charities.

而我母亲在抚养我和妹妹后，成为了一名社会工作者，毕生致力于帮助老年人，他们通常行动不便，很多人甚至没有家人探望。

And my mother, after raising me and my sister, became a social worker and really dedicated her life to people who were older, who were often homebound, and in many cases who didn't have family to come visit them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我母亲会进行家访，并组织志愿者进行家访，主要服务犹太社区和曼哈顿上城区的居民。

And so my mom would do home visits and organize for volunteers to do home visits, primarily in the Jewish community and and sort of Uptown Manhattan.

我从他们两人身上都学到了非常多。

And I learned a tremendous amount from both of them.

他们对自己的所作所为有着非常坚定的伦理道德基础。

They had very they have very firm sort of ethical, moral foundations for what they did.

但一方面是非常商业化的导向，另一方面则是真正的人道主义导向。

But in one case, a very commercial focus, and then the other case, really humanitarian focus.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以这很有趣，因为这两种方向几乎处于光谱的两端。

So it's funny because those are kind of opposite ends of the spectrum.

对吧？

Right?

就像，一个非常商业化的焦点和一个充满人道主义的焦点。

Like, a very commercial focus and a humanitarian focus.

我在想，你是如何将这两者融合在一起的，以及这种融合如何塑造了你所做的选择。

And, like, I wonder how you blend the two two together and then how the blend has kind of shaped, you know, the choices that you have made.

当你说你父亲从事金融行业时，我们是在谈论像迈克尔·刘易斯笔下那种叱咤风云的投资银行家，还是更像某家公司的首席财务官？

And and when you're when you say your data's in finance, we're talking like, you know, Michael Lewis, big swinging dick investment banker finance or, you know, like, somebody who's like a CFO at a company?

是的。

Yeah.

可以说介于两者之间吧。

So somewhere in between the two, I'd say.

他最初在纽约做投资银行家，后来参与了一些非常有意思的项目。

You know, he he started his career as an investment banker in New York and then did some really interesting projects.

比如他帮助首批汽车经销商上市，在我父亲和几位合伙人之前。

He helped, for example, take the first car dealerships public before, my dad and and a couple partners.

汽车经销商一直是私人所有，而且实际上有上市限制，因为汽车制造商要求必须了解所有合作经销商的股东情况。

Car dealerships were always privately owned, and and there was actually restriction, for taking them public, because the the auto manufacturers had a requirement of sort of knowing all the shareholders of the dealerships that they were in partnership with.

所以我父亲开创了这种汽车经销商公开上市的新模式。

And so my dad sort of pioneered this new method of of public ownership for car dealerships.

算是介于两者之间。

So somewhere in between the two.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯，你刚才提到了犹太社区。

Well, so you you alluded to to the Jewish community.

你也有犹太血统吗？

Are you of Jewish descent as well?

是的。

I am.

好的。

Okay.

所以这总是我在与犹太裔播客嘉宾交谈时好奇的一点，因为大家都告诉我，犹太孩子的成长经历与印度孩子非常相似，尤其是在关于如何

So this is always something I'm I'm curious about when I talk to my my Jewish podcast guests, because everybody tells me that growing up as a Jewish kid is very similar to growing up as an Indian kid in terms of what you're taught about making your

在世上立足的教育方面。

way in the world.

就像医生、律师、工程师，否则就是失败。

It's like doctor, lawyer, engineer, failure.

没错。

Right.

我是说，我认为确实存在这种倾向。

I mean, I think that there's there's def listen.

我觉得这是一种令人无比自豪的智识传统。

I think it's a it's an incredibly proud intellectual tradition.

我也认为有种长期存在的、略带局外人感受的历史。

I also think there's a history of sort of feeling a little bit like an outsider.

对我而言，说实话这种感受从激励角度反而有所帮助——尽管我成长环境客观来说很优越。

And, you know, for me, I think that that was honestly sort of helpful from a motivation standpoint even though, you know, I grew up objectively.

要知道，我曾无比幸运。

You know, I was incredibly lucky.

我有两位出色的父母、充满爱的家庭，在很多方面都享有特权般的成长环境。

I had two wonderful parents and and a loving family and, you know, a a privileged upbringing in a lot of ways.

我想这种背景因素是我父母那代人必须面对的。

I think, you know, that's something in your background that that, you know, my parents dealt with.

他们成长过程中遭遇过反犹主义，被某些机构排斥在外。

They're growing up, you know, antisemitism and and and being excluded from certain institutions.

这在我生命中已成为一种动力源泉，我为此感到非常自豪，也深受激励。

And it's something that I have found in my life to be a and I'm I'm quite proud and and also quite motivational.

但在精神层面，说实话我并不太参与这些。

But spiritually, you know, I'm I'm really not involved.

这更多是一种文化根基，而非其他。

It's it's more of a cultural grounding than anything else.

嗯。

Yeah.

他们是第一代移民，还是他们的父母更早就在这里了？

Were they first generation immigrants or were their parents here before them?

我母亲那边的祖父母是移民来的，父亲那边则更早一代。

Their parents in one on my mom's side, my my grandparents immigrated and my dad's side a generation before that.

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

他说，我在思考反犹太主义和种族主义这类问题，以及它们如何代代演变。

He's like, I I think about things like antisemitism and and racism and how it changes from generation to generation.

就像，你知道，我感觉现在某些事情中明显带有这些问题的暗流，社会似乎在倒退。

Like, you know, like, I feel like, obviously, there's some undertones of some of these things happening today, where it almost feels like we've gotten backwards socially.

但我在想，他们教过你关于接纳之类的观念吗？这些在社会大背景下的意义是什么？

But, like, I I wonder, like, what did they teach you about, you know, sort of acceptance and and what all of that means in the context of society at large?

你知道吗，这真的点燃了我内心的火焰。

You know, it it really lit a fire under me.

你知道，我父亲曾被学校的校长告知，如果没有一个所谓的WASP（白人盎格鲁-撒克逊新教徒）陪同申请，他根本无法申请哈佛，因为那所学校绝不会单独录取一个犹太学生。

You know, my my dad, was told by, the sort of principal of the school that he'd gone to that he couldn't apply to Harvard without sort of a a WASP basically to apply with him because they would never just take a Jew from the school he went to.

他们顶多会录取一个，而另一个则不行。

They would they would at best take, you know, one and the other.

所以，你知道，我认为这件事可以理解地让他一生都感到恼火，而我发现，这某种程度上成为了我人生中的一种驱动力。

And so, you know, that was something that I think understandably annoyed him for his whole life, and I found, you know, to be sort of a motivating force in my life.

而我某种程度上想要渗透那些历史上难以进入的机构。

And I sort of wanted to infiltrate the institutions that had historically been difficult to penetrate.

所以有趣的是，我一直将其视为一种积极因素而非消极因素。

And so in a funny way, I I I've always sort of I've found it a a positive rather than a negative.

我无法说在我的生活中...我是说，我在纽约长大。

I I can't say in my life that I've ever I mean, grew up in New York.

这是

It's it's

那里有四分之一的犹太人。

it's a quarter Jewish.

你知道，除了以色列，纽约的犹太人比世界上任何地方都多。

It's it's, you know, outside of Israel, there there are more Jews in New York than anywhere else.

所以我认为那是个极其适合犹太人成长的地方。

So, you know, I I I think it was an incredibly an incredibly place to grow up as a Jew.

我没有经历过任何不好的事情。

I didn't experience anything bad.

是啊。

Yeah.

那么，跟我聊聊是什么轨迹引导你走到今天所从事的事业。

Well, talk to me about the trajectory of, like, what has led you to what you're doing today.

因为，就像我说的，当我听到‘脑植入’这个词时，你知道，我脑子里闪过两个念头。

Because, like like I said, when I heard the word brain implant, you know, like, two thoughts went to my mind.

这可能会非常神奇，也可能极其反乌托邦。

This could be fucking amazing or this could be dystopian as hell.

是的。

Yeah.

它确实兼具这两种可能性，但我...我们正在努力让它成为前者。

It has both those both those potentials, but I but I I we're working hard for it to be the former.

没错。

Yeah.

你知道，我的人生和职业生涯原本注定不会进入脑机接口这个行业。

You know, I my life and my career were definitely not destined to end up in sort of, you know, brain computer interface industry.

我在大学主修的是历史和文学。

I studied history and literature in college.

大学毕业后，我最初是作为一家总部位于香港的投资基金的暑期实习生搬到香港的，该基金基本上投资范围从澳大利亚到印度，以及两者之间的所有地区。

And out of out of college, I moved to Hong Kong initially as a summer intern for an investment fund that was based based in Hong Kong and basically investing from Australia to India and everything in between.

这段经历让我获得了非凡的商业背景，接触了不同的商业模式、司法管辖区，以及管理方式和提升股东价值方面极其多元的文化视角。

And it gave me an extraordinary sort of background in in business and and different business models, different jurisdictions, incredibly different sort of cultural approaches to management and and and driving shareholder value.

我原本以为只会在亚洲待一两年，熟悉业务后就回美国。

And I ended up sort of thinking that I was gonna spend a year or two in Asia, learn the ropes, and then come back to The US.

结果我在香港生活了近八年，那是一段非凡的经历，我结交了了不起的朋友，也经历了许多精彩的冒险。

I ended up spending nearly eight years living in Hong Kong, which was an extraordinary experience, and I made incredible friends and had a lot of terrific adventures.

但归根结底，如果你在公开市场这一边，投资通常就是购买大型上市公司的小额股份。

But, ultimately, you know, investing is generally about buying small stakes in very large large public companies if you're sort of on the public market side.

我发现这种工作并不能完全让我感到满足。

And that was something that I didn't find, you know, totally fulfilling.

于是我搬回了美国。

So I moved back to The United States.

我在英国待了一年，完成了一个研究生项目，休息了一段时间后回到美国，与一位合伙人开始真正收购并亲手经营几家企业。

I spent I spent a year in England and and did a graduate program and took some time off and came back to The United States and and with a partner started really sort of buying and building a handful of businesses that we were intimately involved in.

正是基于这样的背景，才诞生了Precision Neuroscience这家开发脑植入设备的公司。

And it was sort of out of that that came Precision Neuroscience, which is the company that's developing the brain implant.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，我们简要谈谈你在香港的那段时光吧。

Well, let's talk briefly about your time in Hong Kong.

我的意思是，我很幸运能跟着父母周游世界，但对于那些成年后在异国长期生活的人，我总是好奇两件事的结合。

I mean, I've been fortunate enough to be dragged around the world by my parents, but something I always wonder about people who spend, like, a a large amount of time in another country, particularly as an adult, is the combination of two things.

一是初到时的文化冲击，二是返回美国时的逆向文化冲击。

One is the culture shock when you arrive at that place and then the reverse culture shock when you return to The United States.

请谈谈这两个方面。

Talk to me about those two things.

是的。

Yeah.

我想说，那段时期确实有几个不同的趣闻轶事。

I mean, you know, it was a a few different sort of anecdotes from that time.

我想说的是，我们投资了菲律宾最大的传媒公司。

I I'd say, you know, we invested in the largest media company in The Philippines.

而菲律宾当时是一个拥有9000万人口的国家。

And Philippines is a country of, at that point, 90,000,000 people.

要知道，这是一个巨大的市场。

And, you know, it's a it's a big market.

那里的电影明星对美国几乎所有人来说都完全陌生。

And the movie stars there are completely unknown to anybody, virtually anybody in The United States.

所以我有机会在电影制片厂见到一些人，老实说我根本分不清谁是送餐员谁是电影演员。

And so, you know, I had the opportunity to meet people at the sort of film studio who, you know, I couldn't tell from you know, I couldn't I couldn't tell the difference between someone serving the food and someone acting in the in the movies.

这提醒我们，所有人的视角都很狭隘，一个人的明星可能是另一个人的陌生人。

And it was just a reminder that, you know, the the we take we all have very narrow perspectives, and somebody's movie star is another person's total stranger.

要知道，一个人并不比另一个人更有价值或更重要。

And it doesn't you know, one person is not really, you know, more valuable and more important than the next.

这真的只是取决于你看问题的角度。

It really just depends on your perspective on things.

我把这个教训作为人生的核心信条一直铭记于心。

And I've sort of kept that as a core lesson, I think, for for for the rest of my life.

另外，2005年我刚大学毕业搬到香港时，有种天真的的反应。那时亚洲经济正蓬勃发展。

I also, you know, had sort of, I think, a naive reaction to first moving to Hong Kong, which was, you know, when I moved in 2005, which is when I graduated college, there you know, Asia was booming.

中国每年以超过10%的速度增长，整个发展中亚洲地区都呈现爆炸式增长态势。

China was growing, you know, over 10% a year, and and, you know, developing Asia was just it it was going gangbusters.

然而，当时却很少有人能意识到这些机遇——那些在美国或英国受过教育、本可以在亚洲大有作为的人。

And yet, you know, there were fewer people who had who were sort of trying to leverage those opportunities, who had gone to, you know, US or UK schools who who were in a position to to do really well out there.

我当时就想：天啊，这简直是严重的资源错配。

And I thought, god, what a what a mismatch.

人们都挤破头去纽约那些官僚主义盛行的大公司里，拼命想往上爬。而亚洲这片充满机遇的土地，却被大家完全忽视了。

You know, people have moved to New York to these huge, very bureaucratic corporations, and they're just trying to sort of, you know, scratch their way up, whereas this enormous opportunity in Asia, and people just don't understand.

后来我才明白，无论商业机会多么巨大，生活在世界的另一端确实要付出真实的代价。

And what I came to realize was that, you know, living halfway around the rural the world, no matter how big the commercial opportunity, comes with real costs.

从生活方式的角度来说，我开始真正想念家乡和那些一起长大的亲人。

And, you know, from a sort of lifestyle perspective, I really started to to miss home and miss, you know, the the people I'd grown up with in my family.

所以我最终也成了那些在海外待了一段时间后又回家的人之一。

And so I ended up being, you know, becoming one of those people who ended up spending some time out there and and and coming home.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

真有意思，我也有类似的经历。

It's funny because I had a similar experience.

我曾搬到哥斯达黎加住了六个月，因为我是个冲浪爱好者，当时还想着那里会是天堂。

I moved to Costa Rica for six months because I was a surfer, and I was thinking, oh, this is gonna be heaven.

但记得待到后期时，我只想...只想赶紧回来。

And I remember by the time I was done, I it.

我就是想回家，立刻回来。

I wanted to get back, just get back.

因为我觉得——这很有趣——你能明显看出度假游客与当地人，或者像我这样暂住者之间的鲜明对比。

Because I think that, like and it's funny because you saw this really stark contrast between the people who had come on vacation there versus the locals and or people like me who were just staying there.

所有来度假的人都觉得，住在这里肯定特别棒。

And everybody who was on vacation thought, she's like, oh, this must be amazing to, like, live here.

而我的反应是，才不是呢。

And I'm like, no.

实际上糟透了。

It actually sucks.

我记得后来去度假时，反而玩得更开心，因为

And I remember when I went back for vacation, I had a much better time because I

我知道自己只待三周。

knew I was only there for three weeks.

完全同意。

Totally.

确实如此。

Totally.

这真的取决于你的心态，还有时间长短。

It really depends on your frame of mind and also, you know, how much time.

待几周、六个月和六年之间差别巨大。

It's a big difference spending a couple weeks versus six months versus six years.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，有件事我很好奇，你提到银行业工作为你打下了绝佳基础，让你理解商业和创造股东价值。

Well, so one thing I wonder you mentioned that working in banking gave you this fantastic foundation for, you know, understanding business and and, you know, creating shareholder value.

这事我也经常思考。

And something that I've thought a lot about yeah.

我记得我写过一篇文章，标题是《商学院不会教你任何关于经营企业的知识》，这是基于我的个人经历。

I remember I wrote this article titled Business School Teaches You Nothing About Running a Business based on my my personal experience.

我记得纳瓦尔·拉维康特实际上提到过这一点。

And I remember Naval Rabikup actually mentioned this.

他说创业的关键在于，有太多隐藏的特质直到你真正开始做这件事时才会显现出来。

He said the thing with starting a business is there are all these hidden idiosyncrasies that don't express themselves until you actually start the damn thing.

我在想，基于你的银行业背景，有多少经验是可迁移的，又有多少是让你觉得‘见鬼’的全新挑战。

And I wonder, you know, based on the the banking background, how much of that has translated and how much of it has been just like, holy shit.

我完全不知道自己在做什么。

I have no idea what I'm doing.

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

我想说的是，投资，尤其是公开市场投资，即投资于那些在证券交易所上市的公司，某种程度上介于实际运营一家公司、真正理解其内部运作机制，与采用更理论化的商学院案例研究方法之间。

I, you know, I would say that investing, especially investing in public markets, so investing in companies that are are listed on the stock exchange, is probably somewhere in between running a company and really understanding the nuts and bolts and the guts of it and doing the more theoretical sort of, you know, business school case study type approach.

你实际上是在将风险资本投入到一家公司中。

You are making a you know, you're putting risk capital on the line, into a company.

每天，股市都会告诉你判断是对是错。

And every day, you're told by the stock market whether you're right or wrong.

但如果你盯得太紧，我认为反而会错失重点。

And if you look too closely, I think actually you sort of missed the point.

所以你不能每分钟、每小时甚至每天都盯着看。

So you can't you can't look on a minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day basis.

但以数周或数月的时间跨度来看，股价表现通常能真实反映企业的实际业绩和发展前景。

But over weeks and months, you know, generally, the stock price performance, really follows the the underlying performance and and prospects of the business.

而且市场会毫不含糊地告诉你，你的判断是对还是错。

And you're told in no uncertain terms whether your judgment was correct or incorrect.

你未必能立即确切知道原因，但通常随着时间的推移，你会逐渐明白。

And you don't necessarily know exactly why, at least in the moment, though, generally, you you find out over time.

但是，你知道，真金白银的投入和自身的利害关系，确实能让头脑高度集中，这不是什么理论上的空谈。

But, you know, having that money on the line and having yourself on the line to some extent, you know, really focuses the mind, and it it's not a theoretical sort of construct.

话虽如此，实际操作与深入企业日常、亲历挑战机遇、见证成败细节之间还是有区别的。

That said, you know, there's a difference between doing that and then being in the weeds of a business and living it day to day and seeing what the challenges are and the opportunities are and what can go right and what can go wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这种亲身经历是无可替代的。

And I I, you know, I I think that there's no no replacement for for for that sort of lived experience.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得这让我想起纳西姆·塔勒布的'利益攸关'理论，就像经营企业时你会直接承受自己决策的后果。

I I think it, you it kind of reminds me of Nassim Taleb's concept of skin in the game where, like, you're directly affected by the outcomes of your actions when you're running a business.

完全同意。

Totally.

我是说，投资时你也在某种程度上参与其中。

I mean, you are to a certain extent too when you're investing.

我觉得这正是投资的优势所在，你能真切感受到。

I mean, you know, you I I and I think that that's the benefit of of investing where, you know, you feel it.

当一切顺利时，你会觉得自己像超人一样无所不能。

When when things go well, you can feel like you're you're Superman and can do no wrong.

而当事情变糟时，你会感到非常糟糕。

And when things go poorly, you feel terrible.

我认为这在某种程度上与经营企业是相似的。

And I think that that's, to a certain extent, similar to running a business.

但经营企业能让你以完全不同的方式理解驱动基本面的运作。

But but running a business, you just understand what's driving the fundamentals in a totally different way.

那么，给我讲讲一个大学学历史的人，最后怎么会经营一家研究脑机接口的公司呢？

Well, explain to me how a guy who studies history in college ends up running a company that was working on brain computer interfaces.

但我觉得我们需要给人们一些基础的神经科学背景知识，比如基本原理。

But I and and then I think we need to give people some foundational sort of neuroscience background, like the basics.

因为我真的不得不把《连线》杂志上关于你的文章放进AI里，让它像给五岁小孩解释一样告诉我，这样和马克·迈克尔交谈时我才知道自己到底在说什么。

Because I literally had to take the article that was on Wired about you, put it into my AI, and it was like, explain this to me like a five year old so I know what the hell I'm talking about when you talk to Mark Michael.

是啊。

Yeah.

不。

No.

这确实也是个很好的问题。

It's a it's that that that also is a great question.

我父母也问过很多次这个问题，我会尽力解释。

It's one my my parents have asked many times, and so I'll I'll do my best.

基本上，脑机接口本质上是试图在人类大脑和外部计算机之间建立数字通信链路，让人们仅通过思维——无需动作，纯粹通过思维——就能操作电脑、玩游戏、创作艺术、通过短信和邮件交流等等。

You know, basically, a brain computer interface fundamentally is an effort to create a digital communication link between the human brain and an external computer and to enable people through thought alone, so no movement, just just through thought to, you know, operate a computer, to play video games, to create art, to communicate via text messages and and email, so on.

这听起来像是科幻小说。

And, you know, this sounds like it's science fiction.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但首位接受现代脑机接口植入的人实际上是在2004年，也就是近二十年前。

But first person to be implanted with sort of a modern brain computer interface was actually in 2,004, so nearly twenty years ago.

那个人能够仅凭思维操作电脑光标。

And that person was able to, you know, operate a a computer cursor through thought alone.

随后，已有近40人植入了脑机接口技术。

And and subsequently, there are nearly 40 people who have been implanted with BCI technology.

所以，这听起来很未来主义，但实际上它已经发展了一段时间。

And so, you know, this sounds like it is very futuristic, but but actually, it it's been going on for for some time.

迄今为止，脑机接口技术的主要用户，我认为在未来几年仍将是因各种原因瘫痪的人群，无论是脊髓损伤、某些类型的中风，还是神经退行性疾病。

The primary users of BCI technology up until now and I think still for for for for the next several years are people who are paralyzed for various reasons, whether spinal cord injury, certain kinds of stroke, neurodegenerative diseases.

在这些情况下，大脑仍然功能正常，但在某些情况下身体功能受限，只是连接通路受损。

So the the brain is still functional and the body in certain cases is still functional, but the connection, is, is is impaired.

因此，脑机接口在恢复连接、提升患者功能性和改善生活质量方面能发挥重要作用。

And so BCIs can play a really meaningful role in in restoring that and giving people greater functionality and better quality of life.

嗯，所以，就像你说的，你能通过意念发送短信，我的

Well, so, like, when you said that you you could send text messages through thought, like, my

第一反应是，比如，如果我对朋友产生了不好的想法，或者只是想着，天啊，这人真让我恼火怎么办？

first thought was, like, what if I'm having a horrible thought about a friend or just thinking, god, this person pisses me off?

就像，那是...然后就像，嘿。

Like, that was and it's like, hey.

发送知道吗？

Send know?

然后突然，你知道的，我其实非常喜欢但此刻有点烦的朋友，收到我一条随机的短信，写着，嘿。

And suddenly, you know, my friend who I absolutely love, but I'm just kind of annoyed with, gets a random text from me think saying, hey.

我觉得你是个混蛋。

I think you're an asshole.

给我解释一下，这里的界限是什么。

Like, explain to me, like, what the boundaries are here.

比如，怎么

Like, how

这实际上是怎么运作的？

does this actually work?

目前的技术水平显然还无法读取人的思维。

The state of the art is is certainly not that we can read people's minds.

好的。

Okay.

它必须是非常有意识的。

It is that, you know, it has to be very intentional.

比如，可以考虑主要通过两种方式实现与脑机接口的通信。

And, you know, for example, one way to think about it is through I guess there there's sort of two ways primarily that communication has been achieved with the BCI.

一种是通过想象移动电脑光标在数字键盘字母上移动。

One is by thinking about a moving a computer cursor over, like, digital letters on a keyboard Mhmm.

然后点击它们，或者通过想象手写。

And then clicking on them or by sort of imagining handwriting.

比如写a b c d等字母，不是实际书写，而是想象你在手写。

So writing a b c d, whatever, and write but but not actually doing it, but just imagining that you're handwriting.

脑机接口能够解码这种意图动作，并基本上将其转化为打字输入。

And BCI can decode the intended movement and basically, you know, convert that into typing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者想象说话。

Or imagine speech.

实际上是通过记录大脑运动区域的活动，这部分区域与口腔和舌头的动作相关联。

So, you know, really sort of recording around the motor area of the brain that is associated with movements of the mouth and tongue.

因此，如果使用者试图发声——目前使用这项技术的人多为闭锁综合征患者，完全无法说话——他们可以想象以某种方式移动嘴巴来发音，这些词汇就会出现在电脑屏幕上。

And so, you know, if you are trying to voice, and a lot of the people who have used this technology so far are locked in and so unable to speak at all, but they imagine moving their mouths in a way that, you know, would articulate certain words and those words, you know, appear on a computer screen.

是的。

Yeah.

我在想这个问题，因为我们刚聊过我的AI笔记应用，那里面有成千上万万条笔记, 比如。

Well, so the something that I I was thinking about because you and I were just talking about my AI note taking app, which has, like, tens of thousands of notes in it, like, you know, all our podcast transcripts, like, all my book notes.

所以你是说我可以

So are you saying that I

是否意味着所有这些知识基本上都能通过记忆获取？

could effectively have all of that knowledge basically accessible by memory?

我认为目前我们和大多数其他脑机接口公司都专注于记录，即

I think that right now, we and most other BCI companies are focused on recording, I.

也就是

E.

那些以不同方式植入大脑的电极——这涉及到该技术的技术层面——它们主要是读取大脑的意图，而非向大脑写入信息。若想通过技术产品实现记忆召回，写入功能也是必需的。

The, you know, the the electrodes that are implanted in the brain in various ways and that gets into sort of the the technical aspects of the technology, are sort of reading what the brain is intending to do as opposed to writing into the brain, which I think if you want to, like, basically allow for memory recall through a technological product, you would need to be able to also write.

我认为这还需要若干年才能实现。

And I think that that's some some number of years away.

是啊。

Yeah.

我在想，这对整个社会意味着什么？

Well, he's like, I was thinking about that, like, you know, what are the implications of that for society at large?

比如一个博览群书、读过上千本书并做了大量详细笔记的孩子，将比没有这种脑植入的普通人拥有巨大的不公平优势。

Like, you know, some well read kid who's read a thousand books and is, like, just, you know, kept detailed copious notes is gonna have, like, some massive unfair advantage over the average person who doesn't have this brain implant.

那么，跟我谈谈这随着时间的推移会带来什么样的社会影响，因为，如果我们从不平等的角度来看这个问题，这是否可能会在我们讨论这类事情时造成更大的不平等？

So, like, talk to me about the the sort of social implications for this over time because, like, if it you know, if we think about this from the standpoint of inequality, is this just gonna create even greater levels of inequality potentially when we're talking about things like this?

这几乎让我想起了设计婴儿的概念。

It almost reminds me of, like, designer babies.

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

让我退一步回答一个我之前没有真正解决的问题，那就是我是怎么进入这个疯狂的行业的，以及我在这里做什么？

You know, let me take a step back and answer a question that I didn't really address, which is how did I find myself in this in this crazy industry and and and what am I doing here?

这其实源于一次由我们共同的朋友本·拉帕波特安排的会面，我们俩都和他一起上过大学。

It really was the genesis of a meeting that was set up by a mutual friend whom we had just both gone to college with a guy named Ben Rapaport.

本是一个非常特别且与众不同的人。

And Ben is an extraordinarily special and unusual person.

本既是神经外科医生，又是电气工程师。

Ben is both a neurosurgeon and also an electrical engineer.

所以他同时上了哈佛医学院和麻省理工学院，攻读电气工程博士学位。

So he went to Harvard Medical School and MIT to get a PhD in electrical engineering at the same time.

这个课程组合是经过深思熟虑的，因为他从20岁起的人生目标就是开发脑机接口。

And that was a very intentional combination of courses because his life's work, you know, starting sort of from the age of 20 has been to develop a brain computer interface.

原因在于，本的任务——现在也是精准神经科学公司的使命——完全聚焦于医疗领域。

And the reason, the the mission Ben's mission and now the mission of precision neuroscience is solely medically focused.

我们正在开发的技术，相信能为某些瘫痪患者的生活带来巨大改变，这类患者数量相当庞大。

So, you know, we are developing technology that we think will make a huge difference in the lives of people who are suffering from some forms of paralysis, of which there are, you know, a lot.

顺便说，瘫痪可能发生在任何人身上，包括我们或我们的亲人。

And by the way, you know, paralysis is something that could happen to anyone, could happen to any of us or our loved ones, family members.

目前对于不幸罹患瘫痪的患者，确实没有可用的医疗方案。

And right now, there's really no medical therapy that's available to to people who are unfortunate enough to to have paralysis.

因此我认为通过脑机接口，首先有望大幅改善患者的生活质量。

And so I think through BCI, there's the potential to make a huge improvement in quality of life in the first instance.

除此之外，全球还有数亿人患有各种神经系统疾病患者。

Beyond that, I think that there are also, you know, are hundreds of millions of people globally who suffer from neurological illnesses of various kinds, whether it's, you know, ADD or addiction or refractory depression or, you know, many others, which are, you know, poorly served by pharma, which which has, you know, significant sort of unintended consequences and and and side effects.

Beyond that, I think that there are also hundreds of millions of people globally who suffer from neurological illnesses of various kinds, whether it's ADD or addiction or refractory depression or many 8.

So, you know, I think there's a huge amount of potential that's, again, medical from this sort of combination of creating a connection between the human brain and, you know, artificial intelligence driven algorithms.

所以在水中，你所指的是更偏向通用型脑机接口的应用，嗯。

So in water, what you're getting at, which is more sort of general use BCI Mhmm.

这绝对是可能的。

Is absolutely possible.

我认为还需要数十年时间。

I think it is decades away.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这完全不符合精准神经科学的创立初衷。

And it is, you know, very much not the sort of founding mission of of precision neuroscience.

没错。

Right.

那么我们来具体谈谈你提到的神经系统问题。

Well, let's talk specifically about what you mentioned about sort of the neurological issues.

作为一个患有ADHD的人，这一点立刻引起了我的注意。

As somebody with ADHD, that immediately caught my attention.

你提到了制药行业，对吧，我们称之为意外后果。

And you mentioned pharma, right, which you we say unintended consequences.

有时候我不禁怀疑，这或许并非完全意外，因为我们曾邀请Naveen Jain做客，我记得他告诉我，他曾与一家制药公司CEO通话，对方直言：'我们能研发的最佳药物，就是患者必须终身服用的那种'。

Sometimes I don't I kind of wonder if that's not not actually unintended because we had Naveen Jain here, and I remember he was telling me about a phone call that he had with the CEO of a pharma company who said, the best drug we can make is the one that somebody has to take for the rest of their life.

他说，这简直是终极订阅制商业模式。

He's like, it's the ultimate subscription business.

如果你读过迈克尔·波伦的《如何改变心智》就会发现，书中提到裸盖菇素已进入三期临床试验阶段，而最大的反对者竟是制药公司——他们质疑：'怎么可能接受患者在四次裸盖菇素治疗后痊愈？我们更愿意向他们销售需要连续服用五年的百忧解。'

And, you know, if you've read Michael Pollan's book, change how to change your mind, he writes about the fact that, you know, like, psilocybin is basically at at phase three clinical trials, and the biggest opponents to this actually going through are pharma companies because he's like, why on earth would you want somebody to be cured in, you know, four sessions of therapy with psilocybin when we can sell them, you know, Prozac that they have to take for the next five years?

这就像，这对整个行业构成了巨大威胁。

It like, so this poses a huge threat to the industry.

我感觉制药行业现在基本上可能正吓得屁滚尿流，因为围绕可能让他们变得多余的创新层出不穷。

And I feel like the the pharma industry is, like, basically, probably shitting bricks with all the innovation that's happening around potentially, like, making them unnecessary.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，我觉得神经科学领域整体上就像是大多数制药创新的坟场。

I mean, I, you know, I think also neuro in general has been like a graveyard for most pharma sort of innovation.

因此患者迫切需要更好的解决方案。

And so patients are starved for better solutions.

除了少数显著例外，制药行业的表现确实不尽如人意。

And with a few notable exceptions, pharma has has just done not a great job.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们不妨结合一些具体用例来看这个问题。

Well, let let's actually look at this in the context of some very specific use cases.

以注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）为例。

Let's take ADHD as an example.

跟我讲讲脑机接口如何帮助ADHD患者。

Talk to me about how brain computer interface could help somebody who has ADHD.

我认为现阶段的关键是：我们已知哪些方法是有效的？

So I I think at this point, what do we know works?

我们知道可以在驱动运动功能的大脑区域（比如运动皮层）放置电极阵列，通过脑机接口解码这些意向动作来实现功能驱动。

We know that we can put an array over areas of the brain that drive sort of motor function, so motor cortex, and that a BCI can decode those intended actions to drive function.

我们知道这一点，正如我之前提到的，人们在这方面已经研究了十九年。

We know that, and that's been the case, as I mentioned, sort of, you know, people have been doing this for nineteen years.

我们以及这个行业中的其他公司——大约有五家获得可观融资的严肃企业——正在开发可植入的脑机接口系统。

And we and other companies in in in this industry, and there's sort of five serious companies that have raised, you know, meaningful capital that are that are developing implantable BCI systems.

我们都集中精力于这个应用场景，因为坦白说，这是目前唯一被验证可行的方向。

We're all focused really on that use case because it is the one that that, you know, frankly, now works.

而且它已经得到了极其充分的验证。

And it's been extremely well validated.

是的。

Yeah.

我们认为这既能带来临床上的积极影响，也能创造商业价值，因为这个市场规模相当可观。

And we think that there's an opportunity both sort of a clinical positive impact that we can drive by doing that as well as a commercial positive impact because, you know, we can we it's a market that is significantly sized.

除此之外，有理由相信我们能产生重大影响，但这需要实验、试验和验证才能确定。

Beyond that, there are reasons to believe that we can make a huge difference, but it will require experimentation and trials and validation before we can say for sure.

关于大脑的特性——我知道你的播客请过很多神经科学相关领域的嘉宾。

One of the things about the brain, and I know that, you know, you've had a lot of podcast guests who are, you know, involved in neuro in one way or another.

从科学角度而言，大脑在很多方面仍是最后的未知前沿之一。

You know, it's in a lot of ways, scientifically, it's one of the last true frontiers.

我们对大脑的实际运作机制仍知之甚少。

We still know so little about the the actual mechanisms of the brain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们创立Precision Neuroscience的初衷虽不在此，但希望这项工作——研发直接与大脑对接的电极——能带来这样的副产品。

And, you know, our hope is that this is not, you know, one of those sort of this is not why we started Precision Neuroscience, but we think a byproduct of the work that we're doing, you know, creating electrodes that interface directly with the brain.

我们已经提供了人类大脑活动的前所未有的高分辨率图像。

We have already provided a picture of human brain activity at unprecedent at unprecedented resolution.

而且，你知道，我们将从中获得多少新知，我认为还有待观察。

And, you know, the the amount of what we're gonna learn from that, I think, remains to be seen.

我认为我们非常乐观，但还难以确切断言。

I think we're really optimistic, but it's hard to say with any certainty.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，之前你提到了关于创作艺术、做各种事情的想法。

Well, earlier you alluded to the idea of, you know, making art, doing all sorts of things.

所以，我内心的生活黑客就在想，好吧。

So, like, you know, the the, like, life hacker in me is thinking, okay.

这对按需创造心流状态、提升人类表现等方面意味着什么？

What are the implications of this for, things like producing flow states on demand and, like, elevating human performance?

我知道你们主要专注于医疗应用。

Like, I know you, you know, solely focused on medical applications.

在你看来，这方面的未来可能会是什么样子？

Like, what does the future potentially look like in your mind when it comes to this?

我们会不会因此培养出认知超级明星？

Are we just gonna have, like, cognitive superstars, like, being bred because of this?

我认为，当我们思考脑机接口的普遍应用时，我们是在思考人类与计算机之间的交互背景。

I I would say that when when we think about sort of general use of brain computer interfaces, we think about this in sort of the context of the interaction between human beings and computers.

人与计算机之间的交互界面确实在不断变化，可以说过去七八十年间，从五十年代的大型计算机，到八九十年代的个人电脑，再到笔记本电脑和iPhone、iPad。

That interface, the the interface between people and computers has really changed, you know, repeatedly over the course of the past, let's say, sort of seventy or eighty years from, like, mainframe computers in the in the fifties to personal computers in the eighties and nineties to laptops to iPhones and iPads.

现在我们正迈向可穿戴设备时代。

And now we're moving into wearables.

你知道，我现在就戴着AirPods进行这次讨论，有时候我会忘记自己戴着它们，感觉就像植入了一个设备。

You know, I'm wearing AirPods for this discussion, and and AirPods, you know, I I don't know if you use them, but, like, sometimes I forget that I have them in and it's as if I had an implant.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这实际上也是功能的一部分。

And that's actually part of, like, the functionality.

是的。

Yeah.

所以目前人类与计算机的交互方式主要还是通过我们手掌末端这个小黑盒子。

So, you know, right now, the way that human beings interact with computers is primarily through this little black box at the end of our hands.

如果可能的话，这将是人机交互的终极形态。

And if possible, that that is the end state in terms of sort of the human computer interface.

但我认为也有可能并非如此，未来几十年这个界面会变得越来越无缝。

But I think it's also possible that that it's not and that the interface becomes increasingly seamless in decades to come.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，我在想一件事，你之前提到，这些可能性既可能令人惊叹又可能走向反乌托邦，而计算机要努力避免后者。

Well and so one thing that I wonder about, you know, you mentioned earlier, like, you know, the possibilities are both potentially amazing and dystopian and that computer trying to avoid the latter.

我记得看过一个YouTube视频或纪录片。

And I I remember seeing either there's a YouTube video or a documentary.

欧洲某地有个夜店，整个酒吧的运营都依赖某人手臂里的植入芯片。

There's a nightclub somewhere in Europe where the entire bar was run by an implant in somebody's arm.

他们可以用这种方式支付酒水。

So they could pay for their drinks that way.

基本上，他们的商业生活，比如财务生活，都通过这个植入芯片来管理。

They could basically, their their commercial life, like, financial life was managed through this implant.

我不知道是在电影里看到的还是书上读到的，有人就说，没错。

And, you know, I don't know whether I saw it in a movie or something or read it in a book, but somebody was like, yeah.

最疯狂的是，如果有人关掉那个装置，你基本上就瘫痪了。

And the crazy thing about that is if somebody turned that thing off, you would effectively be paralyzed.

我相当确定那可能是关于中国人工智能的纪录片。

I'm pretty sure it was probably a documentary about AI in China.

那么，跟我谈谈你对恶意行为者掌握这项技术后，能做出我刚才提到的那些事情的担忧？

So, like, talk to me about sort of the the like, what are your fears for bad actors getting their hands on this technology and being able to do things like I just mentioned?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们正在将安全性构建到设备的每个方面，包括我们正在开发的ASIC芯片中，从硬件层面到软件层面，从最基础开始就考虑安全。

I mean, you know, we are building security into every aspect of the device, into the ASIC, which we're developing, so at the hardware level, as well as, you know, sort of fundamental and from the very beginning in the software level.

显然，在神经安全和数据保护方面，风险非常高。

Obviously, the stakes are really high when it comes to sort of neural security and and and data protection.

我认为这是一个需要持续监督和管理的领域。

You know, I think that this is a an area that requires, like, constant sort of oversight and supervision.

我们正在竭尽所能。

We're doing everything we can.

我认为，重要的是要始终牢记患者的视角。

I think, you know, the the one of the perspectives I think is important to keep in mind is the patient perspective.