《慢马》还能攀升多高？外加《土地人》第二季和《杰伊·凯利》预告片。

我需要后勤人员来清理房间。

I need support staff to clear the room.

现在起立并走动。大家好，欢迎来到《守望者》。我是克里斯·瑞恩，theringer.com的编辑。与我一同在演播室的，是严格遵守军人仪容标准的安迪·格林沃尔德。

Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, adhering to military grooming standards, it's Andy Greenwald.

我们回来了。

We're back.

耶。我们

Yay. We're

终于欢迎回到《悬吊》

finally welcome back in the Hanging

塞斯回来了。兰德曼回来了。克鲁尼回来了。

Seth back. Landman back. Clooney back.

开始吧。你觉得你能找出这三件事的共同点吗？男人、男性、白色染色体？

Let's go. Do you think you can find the common denominator between those three things? Men, man, white chromosomes?

见到你真好。下巴。我们是在周三录制的。对，周四发布。

It's great to see you. Chins. We're recording this on Wednesday Yeah. For release on Thursday.

好的。

Okay.

这将是我们暂时在录音室进行的最后一次录制。

It'll be our last session that we're doing in the studio for a little while.

嗯，在美国的录音室。对。你可能想

Well, in in an American studio. Yeah. Might You wanna

聊聊这个？

talk about it?

呃，不。我只是，你知道，我我我要坐飞机回去了。我要回伦敦了。对。原因保密。

Well, no. I just you know, I I I am getting back on a plane. I'm going back to London Yes. For reasons that are secret.

是啊。如果你看《慢马》，你就会知道。

Yeah. Well, if you watch Slow Horses, then you'll know.

也许是《密室》？

Perhaps Chamber of Secrets?

是啊，谁能说得准呢？谁能说得准呢？

Yeah. Who can say? Who can say?

谁能说得准？但我很期待重新投入到充满活力的Instagram美食圈中

Who can say? But I'm I'm looking forward to getting back into the into the vibrant Instagram food scene

是的。

Yes.

就在那边。这几个月来一直在反复观看Topjaw、James Dimitri的视频，我终于能对那些重要话题发表看法了

Over there. All these months of just grinding tape of Topjaw, James Dimitri, like, I'm finally gonna be able to weigh in on the subjects that matter

什么是完美的品脱杯啤酒？你最近啤酒摄入量如何？

the What is the perfect pint? What's your pint intake these days?

目前？嗯，严格保持零摄入。好吧，零品脱策略一直是我的选择

Currently? Yeah. A a robust zero. Okay. A zero pint strategy is what I has been

让我想想，你是否会继续保持这样的状态

Do getting me think through these that you will continue to like be

拥抱清醒生活？当然。我觉得那里不太可能实现。你知道，关于我的一点是，像杨安泽一样，我信奉无标签主义。

To embrace sobriety? Sure. I I don't think that's possible there. You know, here's the thing about me. Like Andrew Yang, I believe in no labels.

有时候我会对啤酒产生好奇，是的。有时我又会直面清醒，你知道。但你也喜欢

And I sometimes sometimes I'm I'm beer curious. Yeah. And sometimes I'm sober facing, you know. But you also love

橡木味的碎片，不是吗？

an oaky shard, don't you?

不要橡木味的。不。不。要清爽的，带矿物感的。

Not oaky. No. No. No. Crisp, minerally.

好吧。酸度适中的。这将是一次有趣的冒险。我很兴奋你能陪在我身边，因为你始终与我同甘共苦。

Okay. Acidic. Okay. It's it's gonna be an interesting adventure. I'm excited you'll be over there with me because you have been there through thick and thin with me.

嗯哼。我们...我不会全程都陪着你。我会在那边度个假什么的。

Uh-huh. We we I'm not going over there with you for the entire time. I'm going to be on vacation over there at some point.

一直试图说服你跟我一起去。我想公寓里确实有空位。但你也见识过我的固执，对吧。而且我已经表现得最好了。夏天有段时间我们都在处理家事，你在坏兄弟酒吧看到我喝啤酒的样子，就像小熊维尼扑向蜂蜜罐那样。

Pitch you on coming with me the entire time. I think I do have space in the flat. But you've seen me, you know, be be quite obstinious Yeah. And and on my best behavior. And then there was a time over the summer when we'd both been doing family stuff, and you saw me approach a pint at Bad Brother the way Winnie the Pooh approaches a pot of honey.

是啊。而且你直到...嗯...杯底露出来时才看到我的脸。

Yes. And that you didn't see my face until Yeah. The bottom of it was showing.

没错。然后你走了四十五分钟散心。那散步挺不错的。确实。

Yeah. And then you took a forty five minute walk. Just to clear my head. It was a nice walk. It was.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以没问题。我们还是会继续做播客。但我会想念你的独特气息。感觉会不一样。

So that'll be fine. But I do we will still be doing the podcast. But I'll I'll miss your musk. It'll be different.

你可能会错过几次出场机会。如果时间安排冲突，我们偶尔会找人临时替代你。

You'll maybe you might miss a couple at bats. We may pinch hit for you here and there if if schedules

这是板球术语吗？不，是棒球。你刚才犹豫了。

Is that a cricket reference? No. Baseball. You thought about it.

你会错过红色十月的。

You're gonna miss Red October.

听着，天啊。你会错过老鹰队的危机

Listen. Oh my god. You're gonna miss Eagles crisis

谈判。

talks.

你给我解释VPN够多了，我觉得我或许能看几场老鹰队的比赛，但我觉得这个我看不了。

You've explained VPNs to me enough that I think I might be able to watch some Eagles games, but I don't think I'm gonna see this.

我完全知道会发生什么。你到了那儿，就会发短信问我，这玩意儿怎么弄？然后你会说80美元？我才不干。最后你就只能痛苦地用GameCast看体育赛事。

I know exactly what's gonna happen. You're gonna get there, you're gonna be texting me about like, how do I make this work? Then you're gonna say $80. I'm not doing this. And then you're gonna just be miserable watching sporting events on GameCast.

不。首先，我可是用GameCast看体育赛事的王者。刷新。刷新。刷新。

No. I'm do first of all, I am the king of watching sporting events on GameCast. Refresh. Refresh. Refresh.

有时候页面会倒退几步，你就能看到亚历克·鲍姆三振出局之类的。这次我愿意付钱。说到你，谢谢。反正我省下了那么多啤酒钱。

And then sometimes it goes back a few places and you can see that Alec Baum struck out or whatever. I'm willing to pay the money this time. Speak of you. Thank you. Well, I'm saving all that money on pints.

确实如此。是的，我们拭目以待吧。但我正纠结于两个事实：其一，由于时差关系，我觉得我一场费城人队的季后赛都看不上。

That's true. Yeah. We'll see about that. And but I am wrestling with there's two truths. One, because of the time difference, I think I will not see a single pitch of Phillies playoff baseball.

因此，他们必将赢得世界大赛冠军，我对此毫不怀疑。

Ergo, they're going to win the world series. I have no doubt.

走着瞧吧。嗯哼，走着瞧。我觉得国家联盟的竞争格局很开放。

We'll see. Mhmm. We'll see. I think it's a wide open national league.

我、我不认为红队能参与这场开放竞争。

I I don't think the reds are part of that open conversation.

是啊。但我觉得这届季后赛会变得很滑稽，真的。好、好吧，我会随时为你提供VPN技术支持。

Yeah. But I think it's just it's gonna be a just a Daffy playoffs, I think. I I really do. Okay. I I will be here for you for all your VPN Thank you.

虽然我自己不用。不，因为我就在这儿，我所有...

Assistance needs. Not that I use it. No. Because I'm just right here. I got all my

你可是个公开派。只要有可能，你就会用最公开的网络。

You're very public. You use a very public network whenever possible.

今天的菜单有点混乱。嗯。我们其实没有...我其实不太想看《慢马》第二集，你看了吗？我看了。你还继续喜欢这一季吗？

Kinda chaos menu today. Mhmm. We don't really have I don't really feel like the second episode of Slow Horses you did watch. I did. And do you continue to love this season?

我超爱这一季。我觉得...我觉得索尔·梅茨老爷爷执导的风格太有范儿了。嗯。他拍摄的伦敦夜景简直...

I love this season. I think I think that Saul Metz senior directs it has such style Mhmm. To the way he shoots London at night that

是不是让你特别兴奋？

Does it get it gets you jazzed up.

噢，当然。我是说，他真的很棒。他最擅长的就是把平凡事物拍得美轮美奂。没错。就像那些市政公寓楼，或是郊区街道——就是里弗和那个拿推刀、名字我还记不住的连帽衫小哥去的地方，画面构图简直绝了。

Oh, well, yeah. I mean, it he's good. What he's really, really talented at is making the mundane look beautiful. Yeah. And like just like council estate flats or or the suburban road where river and hoodie guy with a push knife whose name I don't remember yet, go like, it's just it's just so beautifully composed.

虽然算不上伦敦旅游宣传片，但确实拍得很美。我想问你个问题，而且我觉得对没追《慢马》的听众也不算剧透——因为这问题适用于很多长篇剧集。就是，你有没有觉得这部剧的核心套路可能会限制它的发展？

I wouldn't say it's like the tourist brochure for London necessarily, but it's beautifully done. My question for you, and I feel like this is not even particularly spoilery for people listening to the pod who are not caught up on slow horses or maybe never engage in slow horses. Because I think it's a question that's applicable to other long running shows. Sure. Which is, have you ever had a point with the show where you feel like the shtick that has power that is the engine of the show might be limiting it.

你是在问我们是不是听杰克逊·兰姆放屁太多次了？

Are you asking if we've heard Jackson Lamb fart too many times?

这算是温和版提问啦。没错。我原本想问的是这集里——应该不算剧透——有个场景是全员意外聚集在某处的戏。

That is the that is the builder's tea version of the question. Yeah. Yes. The the version that I meant was specifically in this episode. Again, I don't think this is a spoiler, but there's a scene when the whole gang is gathered at an unexpected location.

你不妨剧透一下——我是说，我们可以称之为剧透

You might as well spoil I mean, we can say spoilers

关于第二集。这甚至不算剧透。他们全在一个豪华酒店酒吧里，那本是他们永远不会去的地方。每个人都轮流被杰克逊嘲讽。嗯哼。

for the second episode. This isn't even a spoiler. They're all in a fancy hotel bar, which is a place they never would be. And everyone gets their turn getting dunked on by Jackson. Mhmm.

而瑞弗在第五季了还以完全相同的方式坐在那里挨骂，那一刻我就想，让加里发泄一下吧。让他做他的事，但我也准备好迎接——也许这季会出现——杰克逊不再领先十步的时刻。一个他不再那么轻蔑的时刻。懂吗？只因为，听着，上周我还在夸赞这部剧的情景喜剧逻辑，以及它因此运作得多美妙。

And the the fact that River is still sitting there getting shit on in the exact same way five seasons in, in that moment, I was like, you know, let let Gary get his shots off. Like, let him do his thing, but also I would be ready for and maybe it's coming in the season, a moment when Jackson isn't 10 steps ahead. A moment when he isn't as dismissive. You know? Only because, look, last week I was praising the show for sitcom logic and how beautifully it works because of that.

每次一个角色走进有两个其他人的房间时，他们个性如此鲜明，以至于你知道会怎么发展，这也正是《办公室》成功的原因之一。

That every time a character walks into a room with two others, they have such strong personalities that you know how it's gonna go, and that's kind of like what made The Office work also.

是的。

Yes.

当你在...这始终是这部剧的平衡难题——一边是持巨型枪支威胁伦敦的恐怖分子，而他还在...还在说俏皮话。这是个很小的挑剔。我想知道你是否对此有反应，或者这是否适用于其他长播剧。

When you are it's always been a balancing act for a show that is also like there are terrorists with giant guns menacing London, and he's still he's still quipping. This is a very small nitpick. I think it's wonder if you had a reaction to it in this, or if it's applicable to other shows, long running shows.

我认为这种张力在本季实际上被戏剧化了。

I think that that tension is actually dramatized in this season.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我和它，这种情况将持续下去。我认为这正是长期规划的馈赠与诅咒。

And I and it it will continue to be so. I think that this is the the gift and the curse of long term planning.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以如果你在想，如果加里·奥德曼愿意年复一年出演这个角色，并且说过‘只要身体允许就会一直演下去’。没错，那你手上就有非常可靠的资源了。而且据坊间传闻，这是少数几部让我听到人们说‘哦，我有了孩子，所以…好吧，我在值夜班时一口气刷完了《慢马》三季’的剧集之一。

So if you are thinking to yourself, if Gary Old man is down to play this part for years and years and years and has said, I will play this part for as long as I am physically able. Yep. Then you've got something very reliable on your hands. And anecdotally, this is one of the few shows that I find people being like, oh, I, you know, I had a kid, so I, you know, well, I I watched three seasons of called Slow Horses when I was on night duty.

或者那样就太好了。

Or That would be great.

就像人们一直在告诉我他们终于补完或入坑了《慢马》。我想这是因为这部剧非常特别——不仅让人觉得值得投入时间，毕竟所有人都在说‘都第五季了依然精彩’。

It it was like people have been telling me that they have been catching up with or finally gotten into Slow Horses. And I think it's because of the really specific, like, not only do they feel like it's worth the investment because everybody keeps saying it's season five and it's still really great.

是啊。

Yeah.

这些季度的内容易于消化，既激动人心又令人慰藉。

Those seasons are digestible, they're exciting, and they are comforting.

是的。实在想不出更好的

Yes. There can't think of a better

舒适平衡点了，但你确实指出了一个极其、极其、极其聪明的现象。当那些让你的节目始终如一出彩的元素，也开始让它显得有点不真实时，你该怎么办？我个人认为这一季的编排非常出色，因为它紧凑集中。故事主要发生在伦敦，几乎像一部伦敦追逐惊悚片。

comfort balance, but you're you're identifying something really, really, really smart. What do you do when the things that make your show so reliably entertaining also start to make it feel a little bit unrealistic. Now I personally thought that this season was fantastically constructed because it's compressed. It's very much in London. It's a London almost chase thriller.

没错。而且你

Yeah. And you

而且你已经看完了这一季。

and you watched the season.

我确实看完了这一季。是的。所以我并不是想剧透什么。

And I did watch the season. Yes. So I'm not trying to give anything away.

没有。但很高兴知道你对此感觉良好。

No. But it's good to know that you feel good about it.

但我认为他们决定在剧中塑造兰姆的方式，嗯，就像尤达大师那样。你懂吗？就是那种永远最睿智的存在，永远掌控全局的感觉。我觉得本质上他在宣告：这是我的王国，我深谙斯劳之家的生存法则，对任何升迁调动都毫无兴趣。

But I think that the way that they have decided to depict Lamb Mhmm. In the show is is like Yoda y. You know? Like, where he is just like always the wisest, always like, you know and and I think that what it is is that he is like, this is my kingdom. Like, I know how to do what I do here at Slough House and has no interest in moving anywhere.

没错。当遇到一个安于现状的角色，碰上演员也乐意戴假发（或留长发）、吃着中餐、与优秀演员们插科打诨时，这种契合度很难得。说来有趣，我们刚才还在讨论这部剧是否像卡在三档的变速箱——既有点停滞不前又保持着基本节奏。

Yeah. And so if you have a character who is like, I don't wanna go anywhere. And you have an actor who's like, I don't want I'm fine putting on this wig or growing my hair out and eating Chinese food and having bants with really good actors, then I think that that's good. Now, it's funny that we're saying like, is this show a little bit you're you're like, oh, maybe it's stuck in third gear or something. Yeah.

我要明确表态：这部剧我永远会追下去。

And I wanna be clear. I'm never gonna stop watching it.

当时我们简直一脸懵逼：这特么什么情况？

Were like, what the fuck is this?

我们熟悉的剧集去哪了？就是啊。

Where's our show? When Yeah.

里弗可是邪教组织培养的超级战士后代。

River was like super soldier son of a cult.

我认为更关键在于，稳定输出的剧集魅力在于你可以随时截取某个片段深入探讨。这集让我全程看得很过瘾，也迫不及待想追下一集。不过制作组对戴安娜·杰克逊戏份的精简处理——虽然很可能有其道理——确实显得相当吝啬。

I think it was just more the the beauty of a stable consistent show is that you can maybe take a little biopsy of one moment or one scene and just talk about it. Yes. And so I think that what I was hoping for in this episode, an episode that I was thrilled to watch, that I was entertained throughout, and I'm eager and ready to watch the subsequent episode. When you have the the show is relatively stingy with probably good reason about its Diana Jackson scenes. Yeah.

斯科特·托马斯与加里·奥德曼同台飙戏。他们每次合作都令人难忘。当她来到斯劳屋时——我不确定她之前是否来过，或许有过一两次——她在办公室与他当面对质。鉴于他们漫长的历史，以及那种近乎磕磕绊绊的休战状态，我想看到他们展现出另一面，这种关系本身就非常耐人寻味。嗯。

Scott Thomas and Gary Old man sharing the screen. They're always memorable when they do. When she comes to Slough House, which I don't I don't remember if she's done before, maybe she has once or twice in the past, And she confronts him in his office. I wanted to see another side of both of them because their long history, their essentially, like, bumpy truce that they have is really interesting. Mhmm.

我认为这种深度和背景故事比瑞弗的父亲是谁更吸引人。我本希望在那个场景中能看到更多这方面的展现。但关于长寿剧集成功要素的宏观讨论，如何保持长期稳定的品质，终究会引出一个结论：并非所有剧集都能无限延续。不是每部剧都能像《实习医生格蕾》那样不断洗牌重来。

I find that depth and backstory more compelling than who River's dad is. And I kind of wanted a little more of it shown to me in that scene. That you know, but the larger thing about the larger conversation about long running ongoing shows, what makes them successful, what makes them successful and consistent over time, inevitably leads to not everything as a endless road. Not everything is Grey's Anatomy, which basically has shuffled the deck so many times.

但他们也已经换了六批演员。

But they've also replaced the cast six times.

这很有意思，你知道的。

It's been interesting, you know.

这部剧没这么做。他们是逐步引入新角色的，我记得雪莉是第三季加入的。

They haven't done that with this show. They're bringing slowly I think Shirley came in in the third season.

没错。他们做到了金州勇士队都做不到的事——搭建通往未来的桥梁。在持续重建中实现代际传承。

Yeah. They what they Second season? What they do is they do what the Golden State Warriors couldn't do. Do the Bridge to the future. You Bridge to the future ongoing rebuild.

是的。而且做得比我所能想到的任何剧集都要出色。

Yeah. And they do it better than any show I can think about.

而劳登主演的《黄金》第二季终于要在美国上线了，下周开始在PBS播出。哇哦。没错。真是个大转折。这部剧获得的评价一致好评如潮。

And Loudon, who is the second season of Gold is finally streaming in America starting next week on PBS. Wow. Yes. What a turn. And that has been uniformly glowing reviews for that.

我还没看过这部剧，但已经迫不及待想看了。而且他也在里面出演。

So I have not seen any of that yet, but I can't wait to check it out. And he's in that.

他还是Netflix新版《傲慢与偏见》的主演，同时也是那些柏林间谍小说的主角。

He's also the star of the new Netflix Pride and Prejudice. And he is the star of the Berlin those Berlin spy books.

那部剧会在Apple平台播出。

And that's gonna be on Apple.

对吧？迟早的事。是的。

Right? Eventually. Yeah.

他现在是不是已经太大牌不适合这个角色了？我不...我不...我不确定。

He is he too big for this part at this point? I don't I don't I don't know.

看起来这角色难度不算太高。

It seems like a pretty not the heaviest lift.

我没想到会对此产生担忧式的调侃。因为我心想：不，我根本不担心。因为我认为这一季真正出色之处在于，它完成了一个极其困难的魔术——既讽刺了当下时刻，又深入探讨了生活中各个派系的极端主义。

I did not expect to be concerned trolling this. Cause I'm like No. I'm not concerned. Because I think that actually what this this season does really really well is make the very difficult magic trick of satirizing a moment while also probing like extremism in all factions of of life.

我超爱这部剧。真的。我很感激它的存在，没有它电视界会贫乏许多。老实说，我希望这类剧能更多些，希望有更多这样的作品。

I love the show. Yeah. And I'm grateful for it, and TV would be poor without it. And I honestly wish there were more of these. I wish there were more shows.

我宁愿看到更多B+级别的《慢马》式剧集，而不是现在屏幕上充斥的其他内容。我...我想我之所以持不同观点，是因为昨晚我在和女儿们例行重看《办公室》后看了这集。而且剧中...我是说，我提到过

I wish there were more b plus versions of slow horses than a lot of the other stuff that we see thrown on the screens. I I I guess I had a I had a different perspective of it only because I watched the episode last night after my now fairly regular nightly viewing of rewatching The Office with my daughters. And there are there I mean, I referenced

一次。与其说是...不如说是...

it once. Than it is to that than it is to

某种程度上确实如此。

It kind of is.

调查局。

The bureau.

观看过程很有趣，最初是我和小女儿一起看的。大女儿原本持怀疑态度，不确定是否要加入我们。但现在她完全被迷住了——部分是因为她特别关注背景中的爱情线，觉得既动人又有趣。而且她昨晚还说'有个斯坦利的笑话'，然后表示'爱死他了'。

And it was fun watching because I'd started it with my younger daughter. My older daughter was skeptical of it and not sure she wanted to watch it with us. And now she's completely smitten both because she like kinda locked in on the like the love stories and in the background, which which she finds compelling and interesting. But also, she said last night, like, there's a Stanley joke. And she's like, love him.

他是我最喜欢的角色。然后她又这样评价另一个人。她就像在说，其实每个人都是我喜欢的角色。

He's my favorite character. And then she said that about someone else. And she's like, actually everyone's my favorite character.

是的。

Yes.

这确实是种本事。这种情境设置让《慢马》显得——你懂的

And that is a real skill. That is a situate so Slow Horse is You do

《慢马》也是同样的手法。

the same with Slow Horses.

这是部情境惊悚剧。

It's a situational thriller.

我觉得很有意思，你知道威尔·史密斯将在本季后退出剧集。他提到有本米克·赫伦写的独立小说，但属于《斯劳豪斯宇宙》系列。应该是《秘密时刻》，讲的是杰克逊·兰姆，里弗斯的叔叔，还有那个几乎像图书管理员的女人——她就像是约翰·克里的康妮替身，叫什么名字来着？

I think it's interesting, you know, Will Smith is leaving Mhmm. The series after this season, I believe. And he has talked about there is a Mick Heron kind of standalone, but in the Slough House Universe book. I think it's Secret Hours, and it's sort of a I think it's a Jackson Lamb, Rivers uncle, and who's the name of the woman who's like basically like the librarian who's almost like the Connie of John Kerry stand in?

但我很欣赏

But I admire

这个角色。这就像是一部关于他们的前传，背景设定在冷战时期。

the character. It's a it's like a prequel about them set during the Cold War.

按时间线来说，它排在第八本书之后，但在剧情揭示上却是在《安德的游戏》之后。

And it says chronologically, it's after the eighth book, but then set in terms of revelations after And

威尔·史密斯表示，这本书是他最感兴趣的作品。

that's the book that Will Smith is like, I'm most interested in

很酷。

That's cool.

如果要回归的话，我会选择挑战这个项目。是的。

Tackling that if I were to come back or Yeah.

就像九十年代的间谍题材。对。好吧。那是个好时机，

It's like nineties spy stuff. Yeah. Okay. It's a good time,

威尔。威尔·史密斯离开剧组时，我猜他可能在想：我已经写尽了所有能想到的杰克逊·兰姆式笑话。

Will. Like Will Smith leaving the show, I wonder if he's like, this is I've written every great Jackson Lamb joke I can write.

看吧，我觉得人们常常把《副总统》视为历史上唯一成功的节目制作人更换案例。但我认为《白宫风云》在索金离开后依然相当出色。你知道我是坚定的辩护者。约翰

Look, I think people point, often point to Veep as maybe the only successful show runner swap in history. I would argue that West Wing was actually still pretty good after Circuit Left. You know I'm a big defender. John

我总是被马特·桑托斯和阿诺·维尼克的剧情打动。以前他正式邀请时总说，你想当我的国务卿吗？

I keep getting served Matt Santos, Arnie Vinick. Used to be a When proper he's like, you wanna be my secretary of state?

天啊。看看我们这跨党派的和解场面。

Jesus Christ. Look at us reaching across the aisle.

我绝不会为了帮你连任做任何事。

I won't do a single thing for you to get you reelected.

没错。《白宫风云》播出那些年的棒球打击率冠军是谁？我打赌不是2003/2004赛季。老天。你知道吗，我刚才和肖恩在外面也聊到这个，你猜他怎么说？

Yep. What was the batting average champion the years when the West Wing was on? I bet it wasn't 03/2004. God. You know, I had the same conversation with Sean outside, and you know what he said?

我们美好的比赛怎么了？我懂。我们都深有同感。是啊。

What happened to our beautiful game? I know. And we all feel it. Yeah.

总之这样不对。

Anyway Isn't right.

我认为

I think that

当某个打击率三成二的家伙——可能因为打席数不多什么的——昨晚我看到有个为红人队还是什么队效力的家伙，他的打击率超高，解说员却直接说‘这白痴’。什么？为什么？

And when they when a guy who's like batting three twenty, because he doesn't have a lot of at bats or whatever, some dude I saw some dude playing for the I don't know. Was it the reds or something last night? He had a really good batting average, and the announcers are just like, this jackass. What? Why?

因为那家伙就像在说‘哦，这家伙只会安打’

Because he's like, oh, all this guy does is get hits.

哦，我们不喜欢这样？是啊。这不是唯一真正的结果。两种真正结果？

Oh, and we don't like that? Yeah. It's not the one true outcome Yeah. The two true outcomes?

是三种真正结果

It's three true outcomes.

对吧？现在不是了。在这个美国不行了

Right? Not anymore. Not not in this America.

要么剃胡子要么换工作

There's shave your beard or get a new job.

基本上就是这样。是的。总之，我想说的是，我完全有信心《Slow Horses》会成功完成节目主持人的交接。没错，这艘船运行得如此平稳。

That's basically it. Yeah. Anyway, all that is to say, I I have full confidence that Slow Horses will be on the list of shows that had a successful showrunner transition. Yes. It it is such a smoothly running ship.

是的。而且你看，我们可以继续前进。但有趣的是，对一部做对的事情远多于错误的剧集吹毛求疵。嗯。不过这就是拥有播客的美妙之处。

Yeah. And look, we can move on from it. But like, this it's funny to nitpick a show that gets so much more right than it has ever gotten wrong. Mhmm. But that's the beauty of having a podcast.

我想问问你今天发布的《Landman》预告片。

I wanted to ask you about the Landman trailer that dropped today.

我们一起看了。记得当时

Well, we watched it together. Think we had

今天挺愉快的。我们是在周三录制的这期节目，周四播出，而《Landman》正好在我生日前一天11月16日上线。好吧，这对我来说是个大礼物。

a nice today. This is we're recording on Wednesday. The show is coming out on Thursday, and then Landman comes out day before my birthday, November 16. Okay. So big present for me.

你觉得他们会在美国以外的国家播放吗？光是关税可能就够呛。

Do you think they'll show that in countries outside of America? I think the tariff alone probably makes it.

我我觉得这其实就是美国宣传片。

I I think it's actually just like American propaganda.

它只在《美国之音》电台播出

It's only airing on the Voice of America radio

电视台。电报。

stations. Telegram.

嗯。他们正在首都城市上空空投这部剧的DVD光盘。

Mhmm. It's being they're dropping DVDs of it over the capital cities.

你在开玩笑。是啊。但这里面确实有类似'美国石油，美国就业'这样的标语在飘。嗯。尽管很荒谬，我依然是第一季的粉丝。

You joke. Yeah. But there is like there is like a an American oil, American jobs, like Mhmm. Banner flying in this one. I am I I still remain a fan of the first season as ridiculous as it is.

我很期待看到山姆·艾略特重返泰勒·谢里丹的剧集。没错。他在《1883》里表现太出色了。这次他加入演员阵容，我猜他应该扮演类似比利·鲍勃·松顿角色的哥哥。

I'm excited to see Sam Elliott back at a Taylor Sheridan show. Yeah. So good in 1883. He joins the cast. Have to assume he is like Billy Bob's Tommy's character, the older brother.

我觉得他会演他父亲。我认为整部剧就是...

I think he's gonna be his dad. I I think this whole show is

山姆·艾略特。他多大了？

Sam Elliott. How old is Sam Elliott?

山姆·艾略特我想有八十多岁了吧？是吗？他，你知道的，他已经81岁了。

Sam Elliott is in his eighties, I think. Is he? He's, you know, he's 81 years old.

比利·鲍勃多大来着？六十出头？六十五左右？

And Billy Bob is what? Early sixties? Mid sixties?

比利·鲍勃70岁了。但在这部剧里他70岁演的是50岁。

Billy Bob is 70. But Billy Bob is 70 playing 50 on this show.

他演的是50岁？我觉得他演的是60岁。

Is he playing 50? I think he's playing 60.

我觉得在他脑海里——整部剧都是他的主观视角——他演的是40岁。就像他完全是个年轻力壮的土地经纪人。对，在这部剧里。没错，他们这么做我一点都不会惊讶。

I think that in his mind, and this entire show is through his mind, he's playing 40. Like he's a 100% a young and vital landman Yeah. In this show. Yeah. They would not surprise me.

我不是说事实如此。我们不确定。我不认为剧情会这么发展。

I'm not saying that's true. We don't we don't know. I don't think that what's happening.

要是山姆·艾略特演比利·鲍勃·松顿的爹就太他妈搞笑了。我是说，有何不可？我正在查资料。我本来希望是他哥哥来着。嗯哼。

That's gonna be fucking funny if Sam Elliott is playing Billy Bob Thornton's dad. I mean, why not? I'm I'm looking it up. I was hoping it would be his older brother. Uh-huh.

无论如何，整个团队都回来了。阿里·拉德，那位毕业于西北大学的律师。

In any case, the whole gang is back. Ali Larder, the lawyer who went to Northwestern.

她提到过这个吗？

Did she ever mention that?

所有石油行业的冒险家们。然后看起来

All the oil wild cats. And then it appears

我是说，这个...抱歉。山姆·艾略特将以常驻演员身份加入泰勒·谢里丹的《土地人》第二季，再次饰演汤米·诺里斯的父亲，这个角色被称为传奇或简称老爹？

I mean, this is I'm sorry. Sam Elliott is joining the cast of Taylor Sheridan's Landman for its second season as a series regular, reprising his role as Tommy Norris's father, a character known as the legend or simply pops?

什么叫再次饰演？第一季根本没有他。

What do you mean reprising? It's not in the first season.

没错。这明显是AI生成的垃圾内容。

No. This is clearly a AI slop.

但我想说，你知道，这太酷了。有传言称黛米·摩尔将在本季扮演一个重要角色。

But I would say that, you know, it's been That's so cool. It's been talked about that Demi Moore is gonna Demi Moore is gonna have like a big part this season.

是的。很明显。

Yeah. Clearly.

这是在她凭借该片获得奥斯卡提名后推出的。

And this is coming off of her Oscar nomination for the substance.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我很期待。

And I look forward to that.

我能插句话吗？可以。你确定？是的。我要赞扬参与该剧营销和呈现的所有人，因为他们用两分三十秒的时间，让《Landman》看起来像一部极其可信的持续播出的电视剧。

Can I can I weigh in on it? Yes. You sure? Yeah. I wanna commend everyone involved in the marketing and presentation of the show because they in two minutes and thirty seconds, they have made Landman look like an extremely plausible ongoing television drama.

这个预告片包含了我们所看到的这一季所缺乏的很多东西。它似乎有风险、结构和动力。

This pie this trailer contains much of what the season that we've seen lacks. It seems to have stakes, structure, momentum.

你说的风险是什么意思？他在剧中被绑架了好多次。

What do you mean stakes? He gets kidnapped like multiple times in

第一季。他凭借那张能说会道的嘴全身而退。他那26岁的巧舌如簧。是啊。管它呢。

the first season. And he walks out of all of them with his silver tongue. His silver 26 year old tongue. Yeah. Whatever it is.

对。不。我很享受我们第一季的观影体验。正如我们在解说中反复提到的，有些片段确实引人入胜。

Yeah. No. I enjoyed our experience with season one. There were even moments as we said repeatedly during our coverage that were compelling.

没错。比如杰瑞·琼斯之死。

Yeah. Like Jerry Jones dying.

没死成。

Didn't die.

不过确实，

But no,

他没死。

he doesn't die.

就是。你怎么敢乱说？他只是和汉姆一样住院了。我的错。

Yeah. How dare you? He's just in the hospital while Ham's in the hospital. My bad.

他给Ham打气，讲述生命的美好。而Ham却一脸病容。我得去拍摄你的朋友和邻居们。小母马从我体内诞生。就只是杰里·琼斯死去的样子。

He gives Ham a pep talk about the the beauty of life. And Ham is like, sick. I gotta go film your friends and neighbors. The filly came out of me. Just Jerry Jones dying.

你怎敢如此，先生？不。只是每当事情开始有进展时，比利·鲍勃就会开始向女人解释什么是真理，或者阿里·拉格会做个沙拉然后大发雷霆。就像这样，泰勒·谢里丹的体验就是...

How dare you, sir? No. It's just that every time something started rolling, Billy Bob would just, you know, start explaining to a woman what truth was or Ali Lager would, you know, make a salad and then have a tantrum. Like that it's it's just that the Taylor Sheridan experience Doesn't

她是不是做了顿摩洛哥盛宴？她后来还做了海鲜饭。那道海鲜饭。

she do like a Moroccan feast? She makes a paella at some point. The paella.

泰勒·谢里丹的体验与预告片截然相反。就像是，这是我喜欢的东西，这也是我喜欢的。

The the Taylor Sheridan experience is the opposite of a trailer. It's just like, here's something I like and here's also something I like.

而你...这有七分钟长。

And you It's seven minutes.

我们会把所有这些...是的，以自助餐形式提供给你。

And we're serving it all Yeah. To you buffet style.

就像芝士蛋糕工厂。确实如此。但...

It's Cheesecake Factory. It is. But

不过，确实，现在有种现代趋势，剧集往往用第一季来铺垫。黛米·摩尔在第一季的戏份很少。我觉得她挺酷的

but, yeah, like there is a very modern sensibility of shows clearing their throats for a first season. And Demi Moore had very little to do with the first season. Think she's a cool

说到点子上了。她转了几圈。嗯哼。然后她在《火焰人》第一季的剧透部分出场。好吧。她出现在约翰·哈姆那个有些模棱两可的死亡场景，当时我们都在猜测蒙蒂是否能挺过来。

one point. She swings laps Mhmm. Then she shows up for spoilers for the first season of the Flame Man. Okay. She shows up for John Hamm's somewhat ambiguous death, where we were all kind of wondering whether or not Monty was gonna pull through.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后我想象她对着他的尸体痛哭的场景，应该解答了这些疑问。

And then I would imagine her sobbing over his corpse answered those questions.

没错。

Right.

就像约翰·哈姆说的那样：我不再出演《土地人》了。

As did John Ham being like, I'm not on Landman anymore.

谢谢你的提问。我不会再回归《土地人》的演出。但是但是但是，如果你埋下这条线索，至少得让它有回报，在我看来那会是个更有趣的剧情走向。对，就是这样。这部剧的起点已经更有意思了。

Thank you for your question. I will not be reprising my role in Landman. But but but if you if you lay that track, like, least have it pay off and it seems like that's a that's a more interesting dynamic to me Yeah. Already. Like, that's a the show is beginning in a more interesting place.

她是公司的所有者，但实际运营由汤米负责。他被赋予了部分运营控制权。

And she owns the company that she is the owner of the company, but Tommy runs the company. And He was bequeathed some operational control.

因为没有火腿。是啊。公司的犹太洁食架构，可以说，意味着所有人都在针对他们。没错。这很有趣。

By the absence of ham. Yeah. The kosher setup of the company, if you will, means that everyone's coming for them. Yes. And that's interesting.

汤米的儿子不再是新手了。我觉得那小子挖到石油了。预告片暗示他可能真发现了石油。

And Tommy's son is no longer the the newbie. He's now I think that kid struck oil. It's it the trailer suggests that he may have struck some oil.

是啊，毕竟他浑身都是石油。

Yeah. Since he's covered in oil.

因为他从头到脚都像《广告狂人》第六季里的罗杰·斯特林。对。

Since he's completely head to toe Roger Sterling season six of Mad Men. Yeah.

好吧，十一月见，兄弟。

Well, see you in November, brother.

所以我回家就要面对这些？这就是我期待的结局？连续几周都在读关于衰落的报道

So that's what I have to come home to? That's what I have to look forward to? Like, all these weeks of reading about the decline I of

你知道吗，如果你对谈论什么有更好的想法，欢迎提出来。我只是随便找了个话题——我没有强迫你讨论《终极名单》或《暗黑之狼》吧？你看过吗？我看了一部分。哦，好吧。

don't the You know, if you have a better idea about what to talk about, you're welcome to to offer it up. I I'm just taking what I didn't make you talk about terminal list dark wolf, did I? Did you watch it? I watched some of it. Oh, well, okay.

这是我在做的一个项目。

It's a project that I'm working on.

你在读理查德·罗尔关于灵性的书，还看《你的离去》

You're reading Richard Rohr books about spirituality and watching And your departure from

美国对我来说非常方便，尤其是处理TLD（顶级域名）的时候。

The United States is very convenient for me as I get through t l d dubs.

好吧。没关系。我觉得这也是由两个讨好型人格主持播客的产物。我只是想让你开心。

Okay. Alright. That's fine. I think that it's also a product of having a podcast run by two people pleasers. Like, I just want you to be happy.

谢谢你。真的感谢。对我来说，兰德曼就像杰·凯利之于你。关于诺亚·邦贝克第二支预告片，我实在没什么可说的。

I thank you. You know? Thank you. What I I think to me, what Landman is to me, Jay Kelly, is to you. I don't really have any observations to offer about the second trailer for this Noah Bombeck That was

之前是预告片，现在完整版

the teaser. Now we have the full

我觉得预告片已经把剧情解释得很清楚了。是的。不过你能聊聊为什么这部电影对你如此有吸引力吗？

I feel like the teaser was very explained the plot. Yeah. But why don't you talk a little bit about why this movie is beckoning you to you?

亲爱的，我超爱关于演艺界的电影。不，我是爱电影本身。我是说，我爱诺亚·鲍姆巴赫的电影。我爱艾米莉·莫迪默，既爱她作为演员，也爱她作为编剧。

I love movies about show business, baby. No. I love movies. I mean, I love Noah Baumbach movies. I love Emily Mortimer as an actor, but also as a writer.

我觉得她的剧《追爱》——她曾来播客聊过这部剧——应该被列入某个清单，就是亚马逊那些连自己都不知道在干嘛的项目清单。

I thought her show, The Pursuit of Love, she came on the podcast to talk about it, was just one of those we should at some point just make a list of, like, things Amazon did that I don't know if Amazon knows what it does.

我们看到彼得·弗里兰德跳槽了，他从网飞回到了亚马逊。

We saw that Peter Freelander went back when he went back, he went from Netflix to Amazon.

哦，我们该聊聊这个新闻。让我最后再说一句

Oh, we should talk about that news. Let me just finish by saying

说说你为什么未见其人就先爱上了杰·凯利。

Why you love Jay Kelly. Sight unseen.

我对这部电影充满期待。我喜欢...我喜欢关于气场的电影。整部电影似乎都在展现乔治·克鲁尼的魅力。没错。而且他非常擅长饰演那些略带伤痕的自我投射型角色。

I'm just psyched for this movie. I like I I I like movies about aura. This entire movie seems to be about George Clooney's charisma. Yes. And he's very, very good in movies where he plays slightly bruised versions of himself.

我认为这基本上是他最好的演绎版本了。

That's basically his best iteration, I think.

你还能举出其他类似的例子吗？

What would you say is another example

比如？《后人》《迈克尔·克莱顿》《美国公民》。

of that? Descendants, Michael Clayton, the American.

我觉得这些更像是颠覆类型的表演，对吧？

I I think those are like playing against type. Right?

不完全是。这些电影中，他的价值在于他的面孔或魅力，但他的灵魂是破碎的。

Well, no. Movies in which he is valued for his face or his charisma. Right. But his soul is broken.

好吧，确实。

Okay. Yeah.

你明白我的意思吗？

You you see that?

我想你说的是，像是乔治·克鲁尼的某个不同版本，这家伙拥有一切。他是《十一罗汉》里的丹尼·欧逊。你懂我意思吗？

I think I think you're you're talking about, like, a slightly different version of George Clooney would be like, this guy has it all. It's Ocean's it's Danny Ocean. You know what I mean?

哦，对。

Oh, right.

不过实际上，我想他并非拥有一切，因为在第一部电影开头他没有通过测试。

Well, actually though, I guess he doesn't have it all because he doesn't have tests in the beginning of the first movie.

就是啊。总之，这是个很棒的阵容。挺好的——我不知道你为何反对。没什么。你只是气我看这个而不是《武器》罢了。

It's just yeah. Anyway, I it's a great cast. It's a good I don't know what you have against it. Nothing. You're just mad that I'm seeing that instead of weapons.

我确实气你没看《武器》。

I am mad that you're not seeing weapons. Am I

会看《武器》吗？

gonna see weapons?

《武器》——我向你保证，你会在飞机上开始看《武器》，然后心想：这他妈太烂了。不。什么？哦，因为...

Weapons I for I guarantee you, you're gonna you're gonna start weapons on a flight and you're gonna be like, this is fucking awful. No. What? Oh, because at

开头是怎样的？是不是一开始就有一群孩子死去？不是。好吧，那我能接受。

the beginning? Was it beginning with like a bunch of kids dying? No. Okay. Well, then I can handle it.

我不能剧透。我不会在...（保持未被剧透的状态下）观看它。我打算看，但我在琢磨...我还在想用什么方式能让我顺利看完，懂吗？

I can't spoil it. I'm not gonna watch it on a I've remained unspoiled. I intend to watch it. But I'm trying to figure out I'm still just trying to like what's the best way to get me through this? You know?

比如，我确实觉得电影院最好，因为我没法中途离开。

Like, I I did think theater was best because I couldn't leave.

电影院。哦，去看武器。

Movie theater. Oh, to see weapons.

对，对。所以但是...

Yeah. Yeah. And so But

我有

I have

很多时间。我的手举起来了。

a lot of time. My hand's coming up.

就是我们刚才提到的那条小新闻

So the little news item that we just mentioned

是的。

Yes.

这事被大家议论过，我想大概发生在两周前吧。

Which was remarked upon, I guess this happened like two weeks ago about, I think.

新消息然后那个

The new then the

彼得·弗里德兰德六周前离开了网飞对吧？一个月前？还是几个月前？

Peter Friedlander left Netflix about six weeks ago. Right? A month ago? Yes. A couple months ago?

彼得·弗里德兰德曾经...你知道的，安迪和我之前有机会在《黑鸽》时期和他聊过几句，大概那时候。嗯。

And Peter Friedlander had been you know, Andy and I had gotten a chance to chat with him a little bit around the time of Black Doves, I think. Mhmm.

第二季正在伦敦拍摄中。

Season two filming now in London.

或者第二季。我会的，替我祝他好运。真心实意地。但他曾负责Netflix的剧本电视内容。对吧？

Or season two. I well, tell him good luck for me. Genuinely will. But he had overseen Netflix's scripted TV offerings. Correct?

他是该业务部门最早期的员工之一，随着公司一同成长，并参与了许多我们报道过的Netflix剧集。因此我们建立了一种友好的关系。

He was one of the earliest employees of that side of their business and had grown with it and had a hand in a lot of the Netflix shows that we covered. And so we developed kind of a friendly rapport.

然后离开了公司，自由身了几周。

And left the company and was a free agent for a few weeks.

然后非常短的时间。

And then Very short amount of time.

非常有趣。所以他正在接替Vern Sanderson

Very interestingly. So he is replacing Vern Sanderson

基本上是的。

Essentially.

在亚马逊。现在作为亚马逊的电视部门负责人。高管的来来往往可能对我们的听众来说兴趣不大。但这些变动意味着你将看到什么样的节目内容。嗯。

At Amazon. Now As the head of TV for Amazon. Moving and comings and goings of executives may be of little interest to our listeners. But what they do mean is the kind of programming you get. Mhmm.

对我来说，亚马逊是最奇特的存在之一。我们真的应该找个时间好好梳理一下亚马逊Prime Video原创节目的历史。绝对值得，因为...

And to me, you know, Amazon is one of the strangest. We we should actually do a history of Amazon Prime Video original programming Totally. One of these days because It's

这是个引人入胜的故事。

a fascinating story.

最初，它简直是在毫无理由地资助那些伟大的艺术作品，比如《罗曼诺夫王朝》之类。这些剧集是否都优秀，该由观众评判。但这种'马修·维纳，给你空白支票去实现梦想'的理念...

In the beginning, it was literally subsidizing like great art for seemingly like no reason whatsoever, whether it was like the Romanovs. Now whether all these shows were great, that's for the viewer to decide. But like the idea of just being like, Matthew Winner, here's a blank check to make your dream The

他们早期制作的剧集，无论是《透明家庭》还是引诱伍迪·艾伦来拍电视剧，在罗伊·普莱斯时代完全是一种有趣的创作混沌状态。

shows that they did at the beginning, whether it was transparent or like luring Woody Allen to make a TV show, like the Roy Price era is absolute creative chaos in a kind of interesting way.

这种风格延续到了后来几年，《零零零》《衰老黄泉》和《英国式丑闻》都还带着这种痕迹。我认为过去这一年...

And it bled into subsequent years where, you know, whether it was zero zero zero or Too Old to Die Young, the English, were still remnants of it. I would say that this last year

嗯。

Mhmm.

终于算是明白了什么是成功。

Has been the like, okay. So this is what is success.

这是正确的选择。

Is the right thing.

坦白说，我有时很难理解我们称之为收视率的新版本概念，就像茱莉亚·亚历山大在鹦鹉公司和娱乐策略专家的通讯中写得非常好的那些内容。但说实话，这有点像棒球中的斜线统计——现在还有击球率吗？到底有多少人在看？它真的受欢迎吗？

I sometimes struggle, frankly, with understanding the new version of like what we call ratings, which is stuff that like Julia Alexander writes about really well for Parrot and Entertainment Strategy Guy writes really well about in his newsletter. But I honestly like, it's the it's kind of like like slash lines in baseball. I'm like, is there a batting average anymore? Like, what is how many people are watching it? Is it popular?

我几乎要放弃了，但我觉得亚马逊去年展现的内容确实是观众真正在看的。没错，就是那些有点 prestige（精品）味道的 procedural（单元剧）、博世衍生剧、特种部队题材剧集

And I've kind of almost thrown my hands up, but I I kinda feel like what we've seen from Amazon in the last year is, like, this is actually what people watch. Yes. This is somewhat Prestige procedurals, Bosch spin offs, Special Forces shows

是啊。还有《你》和《侠探杰克》。有意思的是，他们花了很长时间才摸清门道。

Yeah. And You. Reacher and You. Yeah. And what's interesting to me about this is it would took a long time.

投入了大量资金——亚马逊当然不缺这些——才达到这种境界：旧时代的电视频道和如今的流媒体都难以企及的清晰定位。他们大部分内容并非我们常报道的那种，也不一定算 prestige（精品），但都是扎实耐看或拳拳到肉的主流节目。至于《辐射》，它算得上是升级版，但依然...

It took a lot of money, and Amazon certainly has no shortage of either, to reach something that most channels in the old days, streamers in the current world struggle to find, which is clarity. They aren't the the the the majority of the offerings aren't what we we don't cover a lot of them. Or it's not necessarily prestige. But it's stick to your ribs or punch until you break ribs kind of mainstream programming. And then Fallout, you know, being like a it's elevated, but it is also Yeah.

我觉得《力量之戒》同理，那可是个巨型IP改编。不过说到底，我

I think you could say it's the same for Rings of Power, you know, like that that's a massive genre adaptation. But but really, I

认为是《终极名单》和《侠探杰克》真正明确了他们的战略方向。

feel like it's Terminalist and Reacher that kind of clarified their strategy.

还有博世、巴拉德那一整套东西。

And Bosch and Ballard and like that that whole like.

所以这行得通。是的。引入彼得有趣的地方在于，每次我们与他交谈或互动时，他都在为世界上的'黑鸽'发声——那些可能被Netflix节目单头条掩盖的B面故事。我很好奇他能否进入一个众所周知分裂的地方。

So that works. Yeah. What's interesting about bringing in Peter is that, like, whenever we had spoken to him or or or had any interaction with him, he's advocating for the black doves of the world. The the sort of the b side to the maybe the headline story on Netflix's slate. And I'm very curious if he can go into a place that is famously fractured.

从外部看，我不会说它功能失调，因为我不一定了解其内部运作。但听到的亚马逊决策故事非常科技化而非好莱坞式。有时你会在结果中看到这点，比如我们讨论的《英国佬》《爱的追求》《零零零》这些剧，你得费力搜索才能找到。是的，亚马逊和苹果一样有能力说'好吧'就翻篇。

I wouldn't, on the outside, say dysfunctional because I don't have any insight necessarily into how it functions. But the stories you hear about how Amazon makes decisions is very, very, very much like tech world, not necessarily Hollywood. And sometimes you see that in the results where, like, the shows we're talking about, the English or Pursuit of Love or Zero Zero Zero, you had to, like, really search for it to find. Yeah. Like, Amazon has the ability, like Apple does, to be like, okay.

当然。如果他们认为不值得或不符合大方向，就会不投入大量营销直接放弃。聘用彼得可能意味着他们需要另一个可信赖的稳健人选替代弗农·桑德斯——这位人脉良好、备受信任的资深人士。

Sure. And then move on from something without investing a lot of marketing into it if they don't believe in it or if it doesn't fit with a larger paradigm. Hiring Peter could mean they just need another they need to replace a trusted steady hand in Vernon Wells with someone else who's trusted. Sorry. Vernon Sanders, who is trusted and and, you know, has good relationships.

嗯。也可能暗示亚马逊出于某种原因——无论是追求声望、人脉、艾美奖还是节目多样化——想要效仿Netflix已臻化境的策略：当前Netflix堪称病态般精准地同时为18类不同...

Mhmm. Or it could suggest that Amazon feels for whatever reason, whether it's prestige, whether it's relationships, whether it's Emmy hunting, or whether diversification of their slate, that they want to do pursue a strategy that Netflix has really perfected, which is Netflix at this moment is incredibly good, if not like pathologically, relentlessly assassin level expert at programming for 18 different

简直难以置信。

It's unbelievable.

人群提供内容。没错。而如果你喜欢...

People at the same time. Yes. Whereas, if you like

但他们确实没有背弃青少年群体，事实上，我认为他们以青少年内容为傲，你知道的，就像

a But they certain do not they have not turned their back on, and in fact, I think pride themselves in adolescence in, you know, like

这就是我的意思。如果你去Netflix看青少年内容，它会显示推荐观看，而且会是些高雅的、立意深远、造福大众的智力型节目。嗯。你也可以去Netflix看些，你知道的，世界上最简单的笑话，比如《地板是熔岩》之类的。但他们会竭尽所能服务好那部分观众。

This is what I mean. And and if you go to Netflix to watch adolescence, it will say suggested viewing, and it will be something else high brow, high minded for the greater good intellectual. Mhmm. You could also go to Netflix for as, you know, it's the the easiest joke in the world, like, Floor is Lava or whatever. Like but they will service that audience to the best of your ability.

所以作为Netflix订阅用户，你可以成为30种不同算法类型中的一种并获得满足。懂我意思吗？是的。而如果你去亚马逊，如果你是某种特定类型的观众，可能得筛选很多内容才能找到想要的。所以我好奇他们是否对此有兴趣，这实际上给了我希望——无论是作为评论家、粉丝还是创作者，因为更多元化的节目对行业整体是有益的。

And so you can be a Netflix subscriber and you can be one of 30 different algorithmic types and feel fed. You know what I mean? Yes. Whereas if you go to Amazon, if you are a certain type of person, you probably have to sift through a lot and maybe find something. So I wonder if there is some if they're interested in some of that, which actually gives me hope both as a critic, as a fan, and as a creator because more diversity programming is good generally for the industry.

我猜测，不知道我们谈到的那些亚马逊当前主力剧集——比如《终结者》什么的——有多少是Skydance参与的。但你会觉得派拉蒙将成为这类内容的新归宿。是的。这是个

I would imagine, I don't know how many of the shows that we talked about that are sort of the staples of Amazon's current lineup, like say, Terminalist or whatever. Some right turn pretty. I don't know how many of those that Skydance participated in, but you would imagine that Paramount is going to become the new home for some of that stuff. Yeah. And That's a

好观点。

good point.

你们需要多元化布局，特别是如果派拉蒙说'我们要全力打造老爸电视——程序剧、军事题材剧等等'。嗯。虽然我不确定他们是否会这么做，因为现在掌管派拉蒙电视的辛迪·霍兰德在好莱坞有着极其广泛多样的品味和人脉。但我不认为亚马逊会回头去做乔伊·索洛韦改编克里斯·克劳斯小说那种项目。我认为他们会转向或试图寻找的是——市面上有很多优秀的国际剧集可供收购。

You need to diversify the portfolio, especially if Paramount's like, we're super charging dad TV procedurals, military dramas, etcetera. Mhmm. Which I don't know that that's what they're gonna do, because Cindy Holland, who runs Paramount TV now, has got a hugely widely diverse set of tastes and relationships in Hollywood. But I don't think Amazon's ever gonna go back to Joey Soloway adapting Chris Krause books. I think what they're gonna go back to or try to find is a, lot of good international TV out there to be bought.

知道吗？亚马逊Prime视频应该拥有《黄金时代》第二季的版权，而不是PBS。

You know? I the Amazon Prime should be should have the gold season two, not PBS.

我同意。为什么要在PBS已经处境艰难时还落井下石呢？

I agree. Why are kicking PBS when they're already Not

虽然对PBS有所批评，但我认为彼得·弗里德兰德展现了在国际范围内发掘人才的眼光。没错，针对电视领域。而且，在极端黑暗的《暗黑之狼》和乔伊·索洛韦风格之间存在着中间地带。尝试找到让观众愿意观看的内容也很有趣。

kicking PBS, but I think Peter Friedlander has shown an ability to scout internationally Yep. For TV. And b, there is a middle ground between terminalist Darkwolf and and Joey Soloway. And trying to find that something for people to watch. It's also interesting.

亚马逊并未如我们预期那样充分利用米高梅的片库资源。

Amalene has not really exploited the MGM library the way I think we thought they would.

自他们接手以来。

Since they took over.

如今他们完全掌控了詹姆斯·邦德系列。我猜迟早会出现《钱班霓》衍生剧之类的作品——亚马逊现在肯定会开始从这个IP宇宙榨取价值，而布洛克里家族过去对这个系列保护过度。嗯。但值得注意的是，目前连《奎迪》这样的IP都没有开发剧集对吧？

Now, they've fully taken control of James Bond. I would think that inevitably there will be like the Moneypenny TV show or whatever or like a I I imagine that they will now start to try to derive revenue out of out of that universe in a way that the Broccoli family was always very protective of. Mhmm. But it's it's notable to me that, you know, there is not a Creed TV show. Right?

比如说

Like

暂时还没有。既然我们在讨论行业动态——不是指一月份即将回归的《综艺》节目，而是当前好莱坞现状——值得稍微提一下。派拉蒙最近的战略调整...（修正）派拉蒙采取的这些举措并非...我并非指政治立场，但这些决策缺乏意识形态导向。你很难从他们近期的动作中看出派拉蒙作为整体公司想要追求怎样的内容方向。

Not yet. It's worth hitting on lightly since we're doing industry talk. Not the show industry, which is I think coming back in January, but just like the the current Hollywood industry. The moves Paramount has been make the the moves that Paramount has been making are not I don't mean this in a political sense, but they are not ideological. Like, you don't necessarily get a sense of the type of programming that Paramount writ large as a company wants to pursue from what they've been doing.

他们一直在做的就是跺脚制造大量噪音。嗯哼。这包括签下杜菲兄弟负责他们《怪奇物语》之后的所有项目

What they've been doing is stamping their feet and making a lot of noise. Mhmm. So that included signing the Duffer Brothers for all of their post Stranger Things

包括像院线发行这样的，我认为这对他们在Netflix来说是个问题。确实如此。

Including like theatrical releases, which I think was a problem for them with Netflix. Exactly.

这就像是买下城里最火辣的R级喜剧剧本，并且你知道，出价高于所有人，证明你们是真正的玩家。

Which is, like, buying, like, the hottest the town's hottest r rated comedy spec script and being, you know, outbidding everyone for it, proving you're real players.

嗯，他们在詹姆斯·曼高德和提莫西·查拉梅的摩托车犯罪电影上就这么做了。

Well, they did that with the James Mangold and Timothee Chalamet motorcycle crime movie.

他们还在曼高德和查拉梅电影的激烈竞价中胜出，昨天又通过和曼高德签下全面合作协议加倍押注。

They also bought they they came out on top of a big bidding war for a Mangold Shalamet movie, and then doubled down on it yesterday by signing Mangold to an overall deal.

是啊。但曼高德拍的那种电影，一般来说，55岁的男性特别喜欢看。

Yeah. But like that Mangold makes the kind of movies that, generally speaking, 55 year old men love watching.

所以我还需要些时间才能理解他们的喜好。

So I have some ways to go before I get into them.

不。但就像你看《决战犹马镇》和《洛根》的《完全未知》时，《完全未知》与《极速车王》以及他决定拍摄的其他任何作品。而且，你知道，所有这些整体协议都有点荒谬，因为詹姆斯·班格尔也在为迪士尼制作一部星球大战电影，你知道，就像，

No. But like when you look at three ten to Yuma and you look at Logan Complete Unknown. Complete Unknown and Forden versus Ferrari and whatever else he decides to make. And, you know, all of these overall deals are are kind of ridiculous because it's like James Bengal is also making a Star Wars movie for Disney and, you know, like, the

这是一种增加筹码的方式。是的。基本上。并且建立关系。而且，有趣的是，即使在我们所处的这个缩水版的娱乐产业中，唯一能改变潮流和天气的就是新玩家的加入。嗯。

it's a way of sweetening the pot Yes. Basically. And and building relationships. And I and it it is interesting the way that even in this diminished version of the entertainment industry that we're living through, the one thing that can rearrange the tides and the weather is a new player in town. Mhmm.

派拉蒙显然不是新玩家，但Skydance的收购让它变成了这样。因此，我看到了久违的兴奋和乐观态度，主要是因为一旦有人——一旦一条大鱼回到牌桌，所有的初始赌注都会提高。

Paramount, obviously, not a new player, but the Skydance takeover has made it such. And so there is an attitude of excitement and optimism that I haven't seen in a while mainly because once someone once once a whale comes back to the table, all the starting bets go up.

是的。我非常好奇在未来24个月内，我们是否不仅会看到更多的合并，还会看到一些网络的收缩，或者至少是人员在不同网络间的流动和变动。嗯。现在，我经常打开Apple TV，然后对出现在那些完全不像是明星会参与的节目中的大牌明星感到震惊。你

Yeah. I'm I'm very curious to see over the next twenty four months if not only do we if if we have some more mergers, some contractions of of networks or at least, you know, moving and shaking going on between, you know, people leaving some network to go to another. Mhmm. Right now, I I routinely open Apple TV and I'm just like stunned at the star power that is on shows that are so unstar like. You

知道吗？比如什么？

know? Like what?

我只是觉得有点疯狂，看到杰西卡·查斯坦正在制作一部，像是非常高端的那种程序剧，

I just it's kinda crazy to look at like Jessica Chastain's making, like, kind of a really high end, like, procedural,

是那部被推迟的吗？

The one that delayed?

是的，就是那部被推迟的《萨凡特》。

Yeah. The one that got delayed, the the Savant.

你知道吗？她还在制作一部关于艺术界的苹果剧集？

You know? And she's also making a a an Apple show about the art world?

对，马修·麦康纳和伍迪要重聚出演一部即将在苹果平台上线的剧集。可能有点那种，怎么说呢，现在有种重新燃起的感觉，但这是电视界的名气。你懂我意思吗？

Yeah. McConaughey and and Woody are reuniting for a show that's coming on Apple soon. Maybe there's that a little bit of, like, there's now a renewed kind of, like, yeah, but it's TV famous. Do you know what I mean?

懂

Do

觉得呢？恕我直言，杰西卡·查斯坦能撑起一部电影的票房吗？现在没人能保证票房了，这事完全没规律可循。

think? Well, with all due respect, does can Jessica Chastain, like, open a movie? Like, nobody can open a movie anymore. It's like there's no rhyme or reason to that.

不，我确实认为过去几年最有影响力的演艺生涯之一是瑞茜·威瑟斯彭。当然，妮可·基德曼也在这个行列里，就像在说，知道我喜欢做什么吗？演戏。

No. I do think one of the most influential careers of the last few years is Reese Witherspoon. Yes. Nicole Kidman certainly is in the mix as well for being like, you know what I like to do? Act.

走吧。

Let's go.

我喜欢工作。也喜欢演自己想演的角色，而能实现这些的地方就是电视剧。

I like to work. And I like to play the parts that I wanna play, and the place where I can do that is TV.

但瑞茜·威瑟斯彭的转型轨迹太迷人了，比如看她凭借《与歌同行》获奥斯卡的时刻。对吧？我觉得是。总之，她做到了，然后就觉得，好吧。

But the Reese Witherspoon arc is so fascinating of, like, seeing the moment, like, doing what she got an Oscar for Wilde. Right? I believe so. I so. And that's like, okay.

我又登顶了——即便我不记得了。我想她是获奖了。但无论如何，她达到了巅峰。她成功了。然后她就觉得，好吧。

I've I've reached the pinnacle again or even if I don't remember. I think she won. But regardless, like, that was she she reached it. She did it. And then she's like, okay.

现在我想打造一个帝国。对吧？所以转向电视剧

Now I wanna be a build an empire. Right? And so going to TV

她对人工智能相当热衷。

She's pretty fired up about AI.

问题就在这儿。挑选项目、制作项目、成立制片公司，以数千万甚至数十亿卖掉公司，然后突然转向追逐下一个科技风口。是的，我个人对此有些怀疑。

Well, this is the thing. Picking projects, producing the projects, starting a production company, selling the production company for untold millions, if not billions, and then and then, like, hard pivoting into just whatever tech is coming next. Yes. I'm a little I'm personally a little cynical about it.

我也持怀疑态度，只是不太理解为何非要站在所有这些东西的最前沿。

I think I'm cynical about it where I I just I don't really understand the need to be at the forefront of all this stuff.

就像赋予女性权力

Like empowering women's

声音是啊。马特·达蒙对比特币的态度也一样。我就想

voices Yeah. And the same thing with like Matt Damon with Bitcoin. I'm like

你本不必这么做。

You didn't need to do it.

比如，你把那些钱都捐去建水井了吗？也许捐了。我不知道。其实我根本不在乎这些事。世界上还有更严重的问题。

Like, did you give all that money to like build wells? Maybe you did. I have no idea. Like, I've no I've no I don't really really care about this stuff. There's way bigger problems in the world.

但我觉得深入研究雷德福的职业生涯很有趣，因为我们在《Rewatchables》节目做雷德福月专题。雷德福当然也会利用自己的名声，你知道，或者为自己谋利。这很正常。但他用名声和财富做的事相当有意义。保罗·纽曼也一样，我认为雷德福把他当作职业榜样。

But I I think that it's been interesting to be immersed in Redford's career because we're doing Redford month on rewatchables. And by no means is Redford like beyond using his fame, you know, or or just enriching himself. Sure. But the things that Redford did with that fame and riches were, like, pretty significant. Same thing with Paul Newman, who I think he used as, a model in his career.

是啊。那些家伙是电影明星，过着潇洒的生活。但我也...不觉得罗伯特·雷德福会说什么'天啊，人工智能太他妈棒了'之类的话，懂吗？

And yeah. Those guys were like movie stars, and they got to like have cool lives. But they were also I don't know that Robert Redford would have been like, god, you know, it's great as fucking AI. You know?

我很确定他不会。但我也在想——这是聪明还是愤世嫉俗？因为前几天我们还在讨论一场接一场的战役，以及迪卡普里奥的职业生涯...他现在就像最后的猛犸象。完全独一无二且备受推崇，对吧？

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been. But I also wonder who's is it smart or is it cynical? Because, you know, we were the other day, we're talking about one battle after one battle after another and how DiCaprio's career is it now it is he's like he's like the last mastodon. Like, it is completely unique and is celebrated. Right?

他不拍类型烂片，也不拍超级英雄电影。

That he doesn't do genre schlock or he doesn't do superhero movies.

他拍类型烂片。

He does genre schlock.

他确实拍。

He does.

只是和马丁·斯科塞斯合作。嗯，他确实

It's just with Martin Scorsese. Well, he works

只和伟大的导演合作，仅限伟大的导演。

with great directors, great directors only.