质性研究系列 - 批判什么？通过安娜·拉贾拉博士的批判理论视角开拓可能性

欢迎收听《言语的力量》播客，通过更好的沟通提升患者护理。欢迎来到《言语的力量》播客新一期节目，我是奥利弗·汤普森。再次感谢所有通过Patreon支持本播客的听众，正是你们的支持让这些节目和定性研究系列得以实现。

Welcome to the Words Matter podcast, enhancing patient care through better communication. Welcome to another episode of the Words Matter podcast. I'm Oliver Thompson. So thanks again to all of you that are supporting the podcast via Patreon. Your support is making these episodes and this qualitative research series possible.

现在我们已经来到定性研究系列的第七期。今天，我将与安娜·里亚拉博士探讨批判理论。安娜最初在芬兰佩尔卡马应用科学大学接受物理治疗师培训，随后在伦敦大学学院获得健康哲学、政治与经济硕士学位。她最近在英国布莱顿大学应用哲学、政治与伦理中心完成了人文科学博士学位，其论文分析了批判理论家西奥多·阿多诺哲学中理论与实践的关系。

So we're up to episode seven of the qualitative research series. And today, I'm speaking with doctor Anna Riala about critical theory. Anna originally trained as a physiotherapist at Perth Kamma University of Applied Sciences in Finland and then pursued a Master of Arts in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics of Health at UCL in London. She recently completed a PhD in Humanities at the Center for Applied Philosophy, Politics, and Ethics at the University of Brighton in The UK. And her thesis analyzed the relationship between theory and practice of the critical theorist Theodore Adorno's philosophy.

她的研究在物理治疗伦理理论和概念背景下重新解读这种关系。目前安娜在芬兰坦佩雷大学担任研究员，分析全球物理治疗领域关于痴呆症、政治和经济的话语。她也是批判物理治疗网络的联席主席——该网络已有大卫·尼科尔斯和菲利普·马里克等多位成员参与过本播客。下期嘉宾珍妮·塞切尔博士同样是该网络创始人之一。安娜的研究兴趣包括德法哲学、医学人文、伦理学、情感政治，以及痴呆症、心理健康、失禁和康复的哲学与全球政治经济学。

And her work rereads the relationship in the context of ethical theories and concepts used in physiotherapy. And currently, Anna is working as a researcher at Tampere University in Finland, in which she's analyzing global physiotherapy discourses on dementia, politics, and economics. She's also co chair of the Critical Physiotherapy Network, in which I've had several members of the network on the podcast, including David Nichols and Philip Marich. And the next episode is with doctor Jenny Sechel, who's also one of the founders of the Critical Physiotherapy Network. Anna's research interests include German and French philosophy, medical humanities, ethics, politics of effect, and philosophy and global political economy of dementia, mental health, incontinence, and rehabilitation.

此外，安娜发表了关于长期护理体现价值与批判物理治疗伦理的著作，目前正在准备关于批判性话语分析及莎士比亚角色理查三世批判解读的个人与合著出版物。由她引导我们穿越批判理论的迷宫再合适不过。本期我们将讨论：作为定性研究框架的批判理论、批判理论对政治社会经济生活的影响，以及扎根批判理论的定性研究如何挑战固有假设、社会规范实践，并解构话语权与权力不平等。

And finally, Anna is published on the embodied value of long term care and critical physiotherapy ethics. And she's currently preparing both single and co authored publications on critical discourse analysis and a critical reading of Shakespeare's character, Richard the third. So she's perfectly qualified to walk us through the maze of critical theory. So in this episode, we speak about critical theory as a framework for pursuing qualitative inquiry, the reach of critical theory into political, social, and economic life. And we speak about how qualitative research, which is situated in critical theory, looks to challenge the taking for granted assumptions, social norms and practices, and the understanding of discourses and power inequalities.

我们探讨了批判理论如何自我批判并逐渐脱离马克思主义根源，如何超越单纯描述社会问题，而是以变革、行动和解放为道德导向来运用其生成的知识。最后，安娜分享了运用批判理论视角的研究实例，并为想要探索这一领域的初学者提供了建议。与安娜的对话精彩纷呈，如您将听到的，批判理论的理论社会政治分量与广度起初让我望而生畏。

We talk about how critical theory is also critical of itself and has gone some way to evolving away from its Marxist roots. We talk about how critical research tries to go beyond merely describing the social world and its problems, but has a moral focus on change, action, and emancipation as a result of the knowledge it generates. Finally, Anna shares some of her own research using her critical theory lens and offers advice for those wanting to begin to explore and think with critical theory. So this was such an interesting and nice conversation with Anna. As you'll hear, I was somewhat daunted by the theoretical, social, and political weight and breadth of critical theory.

所幸安娜坚定而娴熟地引导了整个对话。虽然我们可能未能深潜批判理论的渊薮——毕竟那很可能让我们无法浮出水面——但我认为已足够介绍其主要前提与立场，希望为想深入了解的听众提供入门指引。对我而言确实如此。现在有请安娜·里亚拉博士。安娜，欢迎来到播客。

But fortunately, Anna held my hand firmly and skillfully guided me through the conversation. Whilst perhaps we didn't dive deep to critical theory, as we would never have likely resurfaced, I think that we covered sufficient ground to introduce some of its major premises and positions and hope it provides an entrance point for those wanting to learn more. I know it certainly did for me. So I bring you doctor Anna Riala. Anna, welcome to the podcast.

非常感谢你的邀请。

Thank you so much for having me.

很高兴能和你讨论批判理论，因为它在定性研究中是一种无处不在的理论框架。考虑到我对这一理论的知识极为有限，它丰富的内涵、深度以及涉及的历史、社会、经济和政治线索让我感到相当敬畏。所以能和你交谈并请你为我澄清这一切，我感到非常高兴。

It's great to get to speak with you about critical theory given that it's such a kind of omnipresent theoretical framework within qualitative research. And given that I'm hugely limited in knowledge in relation to the theory, I'm pretty daunted by its kind of richness and depth and historical, social, economic, political threads to it. So I'm super pleased to get to speak to you, and you're able to clarify all of that for me.

嗯，希望如此吧。

Well, let's hope so.

那么或许你可以先简单介绍一下自己，你的学术工作以及你进入批判理论领域的历程。

So maybe you could start just by telling us a bit about yourself, your academic work, and your journey into critical theory.

好的。我的职业是物理治疗师。我想我接触批判理论的历程要追溯到很早以前，因为我之前就对哲学和政治感兴趣。我实际上是在2008年2月毕业的，正好赶上金融危机爆发。所以即使在诊所里，政治和经济问题也是无法避免的。

Sure. So I'm a physiotherapist by profession. And I guess my journey into critical theory starts from, well, way back because I've been interested in philosophy and politics before. I actually graduated in 02/2008, so just in the wake of the financial crash. So it was really unavoidable not to encounter political and economic issues even in the clinic.

因此我想攻读一个与哲学、政治和经济学相关的硕士学位。毕业后，我又想攻读博士学位。我的博士研究是将批判理论应用于康复或物理治疗伦理。现在我正更多地涉足政治学领域。我在芬兰坦佩雷大学参与一个名为'构建后资本主义国际政治经济学'的项目，我们研究各种非资本主义和资本主义场所，试图为重新思考经济和政治创造激进的新开端。

So I wanted to study an MA and something to do with philosophy, politics and economics. And after I graduated, I wanted to do a PhD. And I did that in critical theory applied to rehabilitation or physiotherapy ethics. And now I'm kind of venturing more into political science. So I'm working in a project at Tampere University in Finland that's called Assembling Post Capitalist International Political Economy, in which we look at different kind of non capitalist and capitalist sites in which, you know, kind of we could create radical new openings for rethinking economy and politics.

我目前的研究方向是痴呆症与康复治疗，以及如何解构或重新解读康复研究中关于痴呆症的经济论述。

And I'm looking at dementia and rehabilitation and how to kind of deconstruct or reread the economic discourse of dementia within rehabilitation research.

我正想说，在你提到痴呆症方面之前，我本来想说从物理治疗师处理ACL撕裂伤到研究资本主义、经济学和政治，这跨度很大。但接着你提到了当前工作中涉及的痴呆症方面，所以你其实一直保持着学术研究中与医疗保健相关的这条线索。

I was going to say, before you mentioned about the dementia aspect, I was going to say that's a world away from rehabbing ACL tears as a physio to to to kind of capitalism and economics and politics, but then you kind of slipped in the dementia aspect of your current work. So you've kept the kind of healthcare thread of your kind of intellectual work.

是的。物理治疗与康复，无论我在学术上做什么，它们始终伴随着我。所以，尽管目前我没有从事临床工作，但我仍然对这个领域感兴趣。即便我现在更多从事政治和哲学方面的工作，我还是希望专注于医疗保健、物理治疗和康复领域。

Yeah. Physiotherapy and rehabilitation, they always, I always carry them with me, whatever I do academically speaking. So yeah, it's something that I am still interested in, although I'm not doing any clinical work at the moment. But I do want to focus on healthcare and physiotherapy and rehabilitation, even if I'm doing more political and philosophical work.

因此，我想我们不妨先明确一下你我双方希望从这次对话中获得什么，同时也坦率地告诉听众，鉴于这个话题的广度和本系列聚焦于定性研究及其方法论与意义，我们一直在思考如何切入。不过我认为，在这次对话中，我们都会尝试梳理理论的关键部分，甚至认识到批判理论内部还存在分支理论或不同层面的立场。但我们会尽力先阐明这些内容，以便初步理解批判理论的概念，然后将其与定性研究联系起来，探讨这一理论视角或范式如何影响定性研究者的问题意识和关注焦点。是的，我同意这个方向。

And so I suppose just setting kinda laying out what you and I both want to try and get from this conversation, and also probably be probably to be quite frank with the listeners that we've been grappling with how to pitch this given the size of the the topic and given that the focus of the series is around kind of qualitative research and how to do it, what it means. But I think what we'll both try and do during this conversation is to try and tie the key aspects of the theory and even recognizing within critical theory, there are almost gonna be sub theories or subpositions in in different different aspects. But as best we can, just, you know, lay some of those out to begin to get some kind of purchase on what this idea is or what the notion of critical theory is, and then link some of it to qualitative research and how this theoretical perspective or paradigm might inform the sorts of questions and foci of qualitative researchers. Yeah. I'm gonna agree to that.

其实这只是我在铺垫整个话题。我们可能完全偏离这些内容，转而花一小时讨论福柯。

It was just me kind of premising the Yeah. Premising the whole thing. We might not do any of that and talk about Foucault for an hour.

是啊，让我们看看情况如何发展吧。

Yeah. Let's see how it goes.

那么，我们从哪里开始呢？假设在酒吧营业时——虽然现在没开——有个对批判理论一无所知的人问你：‘安娜，批判理论到底是什么？’你会怎么回答？你会用怎样简单的解释向他们说明？

I mean, let's where do we start? I think if we start from if someone was gonna ask you in a pub when pubs or bars were open, but when they do open and they know nothing about critical theory, but they say, Anna, what's critical theory all about? What would you say? How what would be the simple answer you'd convey to them?

嗯，我想最简单的解释就是从‘批判’开始，毕竟这个名称已经说明了。批判理论必然是对某些事物进行批判，而这个对象就是社会。它认为社会充斥着压迫性的结构和话语，这些加剧了不平等，因此需要一种方法来分析这些社会弊病。这大概是最容易解释批判理论的方式了。

Well, I guess the simplest way would be to begin with criticism, obviously, because it's in the title. So, critical theory must be critical of something. And that something for critical theory is society. And its claim is that the society is kind of permeated with structures and discourses that are oppressive and they advance inequalities, and then there needs to be a way to analyze those social ills. So, I guess that would be the easiest way to explain critical theory.

所以它有一个值得批判的对象。但批判理论伴随的另一面是，它也必须具备自我批判性。它并不认为自己是关于社会、不平等或压迫等问题的不谬理论或终极答案。它只是审视这些社会普遍问题的一种方式。

So, it has an object that it claims to be something worthy of criticism. But then there's always the other side of criticism that goes with critical theory is that it must be also self critical. So, it doesn't take itself to be any kind of infallible theory or the last word about society or inequalities or oppression or anything like that. So it is a way to look at these problems that prevail in society.

我认为这是一个非常简洁明了的解释，谢谢你。

I think it was a really it was a nice, easy explanation to thank you.

是的，我觉得你提问的方式确实有助于从更实际的角度思考批判理论。很容易就会跑题去解释那些根源、背景和理论性的东西，这些可能不容易理解。

Yeah, I think it's the way you set the question that really helps to kind of think about critical theory in a more practical sense. It was really easy to go off in a tangent and explain all these, you know, roots and backgrounds and like theoretical stuff that, you know, might not be easy to grasp.

就这一点来说，我认为批判理论的复杂性及其对社会生活各个角落的渗透，我们会尽力将其与研究或定性研究紧密结合。但正如我私下和你提到的，这是一个更宏大的运动，不是吗？它对生活的许多方面都有影响，而不仅仅是研究。这让我感到有些望而生畏，因为它既是研究范式——批判范式，又承载着所有这些底层的东西。‘包袱’这个词听起来像毒品术语，但我不是那个意思，而是指支撑它的诸多内容。

Just touching on that, I suppose the intricacies and the reach of the theory into different corners of social life, that we're going to do our best to try and situate critical theory close as we can to doing research or qualitative research. But as I mentioned to you offline and as we said is that it's it's a much bigger kind of movement, isn't it? It's a much bigger or rather, it has implications for so many aspects of life not necessarily doing research. So and I think this is where where it became daunting for me where it was both a research paradigm, the critical paradigm, but had all this baggage underneath it. Baggage sounds like a drug shooter, but not, I don't mean a druggie term, but lots of stuff which underpins it.

那么或许可以提一下，你是否能将批判理论作为研究范式的方法框架，与作为一种政治社会立场的批判理论区分开来？

And so maybe just just mention something about are you able to separate out critical theory as a research paradigm approach framework from critical theory as a kind of political social stance?

这实际上是批判理论的一个核心问题。尽管一些批判理论家可能研究文化产业或看似与社会问题无关的事物，但在这些理论中区分哲学、美学和政治总是很困难的。如果从定性研究的角度来看，我认为关注批判理论的动机是一个好的起点，然后尝试理解这些理论线索如何交织其中。因为批判理论的驱动力之一就是聚焦于真实的物质对象和真实的社会情境。理论的作用在于它用来理解现实或我们所处的真实历史时刻的概念。所以有时听起来会非常抽象。

That is a really central question actually for critical theory because although some critical theorists, they might look at, you know, cultural industry or things that seemingly have nothing to do with like immediate social problems, But it is always difficult to kind of separate within those theories what might be philosophy, what's aesthetics, what's politics. But I think if we think about from the perspective of doing qualitative research, I would say that focusing on the motivation of critical theory would be the kind of place to start and then kind of trying to figure out how these kind of theoretical strands play into it. Because one of the kind of driving forces of critical theory is actually to focus on the real material objects, the real social situations. And where kind of theory comes in is in the concepts that it uses to understand the reality or the real material historical moment that we are looking at now. So, it can sound really abstract sometimes.

但至少在我看来，观察真实的——我不喜欢用‘真实’这个词，但暂时没有更好的表达方式——比如真实的临床情境，应该始终是第一位的。然后才是用来观察这些情境的概念，某种意义上算是第二位的。所以批判理论总是如哲学家所说，是唯物主义的。它总是嵌入在情境、历史和我们面临的实践中。

But in a sense, to me at least, the kind of interplay between observing real I don't like using the word real, but there's no better way to express this perhaps now. Observing the real context, the real clinical context, for example, that should always come first. And then the concepts that are kind of used to look at the context, you know, almost second in a way. So yeah, critical theory is always kind of it is materialistic as, you know, philosophers would say. So it is always kind of embedded in the context, in history, in the practices that we face.

我不确定我们是否要讨论这一点，因为你提到了‘真实’。你说‘真实’这个词，它是真实的吗？你的意思是真实的吗？我的理解是批判理论认为现实是一种历史性的存在，但被权力、历史背景和事件等因素所塑造。

I don't think we wanna touch on because you mentioned real. You said the word real, and is it real? Is it do do you mean real? And my understanding is that critical theory says that kind of reality is a is this kind of historical thing which is there, but is shaped by power and historical context and events, all those kind of things.

是的，正是社会实践和物质实践构建了现实。这就是为什么我尽量避免使用‘现实’这个词，因为它在不同理论中有不同含义。或许用‘具体’这个词能更好地解释批判理论的研究对象——它是真实的，因为它是具体的，但同时也是我们实践、意识形态、政治、金融等一切因素的结果。

Yeah. It's it's the the social practices and material practices that construct the reality. That's why I try to avoid using reality perhaps or the word reality because it has different meanings in different types of theory. So perhaps the word concrete would be a better way to explain the object of and the research object of critical theory. That it is something real in the sense that it is concrete, but it is also the result of our practices and ideology and politics, finances and everything.

所以它并非外在之物，而是我们每时每刻都在经历的东西。

So it is not something that's out there, but it is something that we are living all the time, every moment.

那么我想我们可以这样总结——虽然这注定难以全面概括——批判理论认为存在压迫者与被压迫者。作为研究者，你可能会带着这种认知进入研究领域或思考研究问题，意识到其中存在的压迫、边缘化等现象。

And so I suppose we can kind of say in summary, and this is not I set myself up for failure here to summarize any of this. But it's something about it perceives that there's an oppressed and an oppressor that it goes into a situation. I suppose as a researcher, you might go into the into the field or think about your research problem as, you know, with those ideas in mind that there's some oppressed oppressor marginalization.

你提到了压迫者与被压迫者。需要指出的是，这种关系并不总是有意识的。比如我们在临床实践中使用的测量方法，虽然无意塑造了物理治疗中对身体的认知，形成了所谓的‘物理治疗身体’，但这并非出于恶意。只是我们必须意识到，这些行为始终会带来伦理和政治后果，即使这些后果不会立即显现。

So you mentioned the oppressor and the oppressed. I think one thing to note about that would be that it's not always conscious. It's not something that we deliberately do. It's not something that, for example, by using, you know, measurements in our clinical practice, which is something that does shape the understanding of the body in physiotherapy into the kind of physiotherapeutic body. It's not something that we do deliberately or it's not malicious in any way, but these are just those things that we need to be aware of and that they always have consequences, ethical consequences and political consequences, even if we don't really immediately see them.

物理治疗师测量患者关节活动度而非相反，这背后存在社会历史原因。正是由于物理治疗师具备专业知识和技能，才形成了这种权力不平等。临床医生可能完全没意识到这点，也并非刻意制造不平等，但他们的职业和社会地位本身就导致了这种权力差异。

And there are some social historical reasons why physiotherapists are measuring patients' range of motion, why they're doing and why isn't the patient measuring the physiotherapist range of motion? I mean, these are that there is a reason why it's their physiotherapist, and they are able to measure, and they have knowledge and have skills, and there is some kind of power inequality there. Yeah, which maybe the clinician has really no idea about or isn't trying to make it unequal, it's just by virtue of their their professional status and their kind of social status that these power inequalities are there.

专业人士与非专业人士之间总存在权力失衡。但另一方面，患者才是最了解自身身体状况的人。因此这种关系其实是双向的。但从政治和伦理角度而言，物理治疗师确实拥有为患者做决定的工具性权力——正如我所说，关键是要意识到这点。

There's always a power imbalance or inequality between someone who's professional and someone who's not. But then there's always also the fact that the patient is the best, you know, they know the best about what's going on in their bodies. And so there's, there are, it also goes kind of both ways. But politically and ethically speaking, the kind of the power imbalance between the physiotherapist and the patient in which the physiotherapist does have the kind of tools to decide things for the patient. And, you know, it's something that, yeah, as I said, we just need to be aware of it.

这也正是批判理论可以作为一个绝佳视角来理解的问题。

And that is also something that critical theory would be really good to kind of use as a lens to understand.

因为这并非偶然，对吧？物理治疗师出现在那里并非随机事件，而是一系列历经多年演变的过程，这些过程最终使得物理治疗师、医疗保健专业人员或医生获得了特定地位和一定程度的权力。同样，患者被赋予或被支配的权力也非凭空产生，而是由一系列历史性的社会事件或运动逐步形成的。

Because it's not just random, is it? It's not randomly it didn't randomly happen that the physiotherapist is there is a kind of, I suppose, a series of events that took place over many, many years, which led to the physiotherapist or the health care professional or doctor holding a certain position and holding a certain amount of power. And likewise with the patient or holding the power over the patient that it didn't just spring into thin air, but there's a historical kind of social kind of set of events or movements which led up to that.

确实如此。其中一个重要因素当然是现代科学与现代医学的兴起，这些在某种程度上已受到诸如以患者为中心或生物心理社会模式等不同概念的挑战。因此，并非只有批判理论在进行挑战，还有各类理论、概念和框架试图挑战或削弱科学知识的绝对权威。

Yes, definitely. One major being, of course, the rise of the modern science and modern medicine, which, you know, to some extent have been challenged with different kinds of concepts such as, you know, patient centeredness or the biopsychosocial model. So, it's not just critical theory that does the challenging. There are also different kind of theories and concepts and frameworks that try to challenge or diminish the absolute power of scientific knowledge.

所以我想这里可能需要做个总结：定性研究——无论是置于批判范式下的批判定性研究，还是定性研究的批判方法，无论怎么措辞——其核心在于挑战固有假设。这些假设包括医患关系的预设定位、被视为理所当然的社会结构及社会图景，以及‘社会本就如此运作’的认知。但正如你所批判的那样，它始于质疑这些假设、挑战传统、理解话语体系，以及抵抗权力与真理等概念。

So I guess this is where maybe a summary might be helpful is where we say something like qualitative research, which is situated within a kind of critical paradigm or critical qualitative research or critical approaches to qualitative research, however you play around with the words. It's about challenging assumptions. So this assumed this assumed position of patient and practitioner, the kind of assumed taken for granted kind of structures and kind of social landscape, and, you know, this is the way society works. But it takes us that's when it comes back to your kind of critique. It starts with criticizing these assumptions, challenging convention, understanding discourses, and kind of resistance power, truth, those sorts of things.

完全正确。挑战既定事实、假设和理所当然的事物一直是批判理论的重要主题。这与某些我们习以为常却未意识到其影响力的结构有关。比如知识就是一个鲜明而关键的议题——知识塑造着我们，塑造着人际关系，并可能被用作权力的一种形式。

Yes, definitely. There's, you know, the challenging the givens or the assumptions and the taken for granted is one major theme in critical theory and it always has been. And this has to do with the idea that there are some structures and things that we kind of well, take for granted and don't really recognize that there are things that influence us. For example, knowledge is one, you know, a clear theme, a useful theme here. So, knowledge shapes us, shapes our relationships, and how it is something that can be exercised as a form of power.

这让我意识到，正如你所说，挑战那些被视为理所当然的事物——那些若无特定批判框架，人们可能终其一生都不会质疑的事物——确实有其深刻意义。

It strikes me as a kind of there's something about challenging those things which are, as you said, are just givens that you don't that you can kind of just go through your go through life, if you like, without really thinking about unless you have a framework by which to critique them.

是的。批判的精髓在于没有什么是神圣不可质疑的，这也意味着——正如我开头所说——批判理论自身也必须接受批判，它应该始终保持自我批判。这与马克思主义根源密切相关，正如你最初提到的，批判理论正是基于马克思主义思想。

Yeah. And trust the idea that nothing's sacred when it comes to criticism. And that also means, as I said in the beginning, that also means that critical theory itself is not safe from criticism, that it always should be critical of itself. And that really relates to the kind of Marxist roots too. As you mentioned in the beginning, that it is kind of based on Marxist thinking.

但对批判理论而言，马克思主义在实践中产生的后果——比如演变成暴力的苏联式马克思主义——是他们深恶痛绝的。这使得批判理论学者既更细致地研读马克思原著，同时也批判那种导致可怕后果的教条式马克思主义。

But for critical theory, the consequences of Marxism, how it was put to practice supposedly, is something that they absolutely abhor. So, there's the kind of Soviet Marxism that turned violent. And that's something that, you know, makes them, makes critical theorists, in a sense, read Marx more closely, but also criticizing the kind of dogmatic Marxism that was and had horrible, horrible consequences.

所以我认为我知道这个问题的答案，但我还是想问问你。你可以成为一名批判理论家，同时拒绝马克思及其所代表的立场。该理论已从那种古典马克思主义发展出一种方式，你可以选择认同更当代的观点，而不必同时接受传统马克思主义或他所代表的一些令人反感的东西。我不了解马克思，所以这方面我不太擅长。

So you can be I think I know the answer to this, but I'll put it to you anyway. You can be a critical theorist but reject Marx and what he stood for. The theory has developed a way, if you like, from that kind of classical Marxism that you can kinda subscribe to to the more contemporary ideas, but not at the same time subscribing to kind of traditional Marxism or some of the abhorrent things that maybe he stood for. And I don't know Marx, so I'm off my area here.

是的。你说得对。再次强调，批判性意味着如果你把马克思说的一切都当作既定事实，那就不算批判。任何理论都是如此。如果我们把福柯或其他理论家视为某种先知，认为他们对一切都有答案。

Yes. You are correct there. So again, being critical means that if you would take everything that Marx said as a given, that wouldn't be critical. Same goes for any type of theory. If we look at Foucault or any other theorist as a kind of oracle, that they have answers to everything.

这绝对是错误的批判方式。但没错，你完全可以成为一名批判理论家而不必是共产主义者，也不必全盘接受马克思的言论、其理论后果或后来列宁和斯大林的解读，认为这些都应该内化并相信其伟大。

And that's the wrong that's definitely the wrong approach for being critical. But yeah, you can definitely be a critical theorist without being a communist, yeah, or taking everything that Marx said or the consequences of his theory or the later readings by Lenin and Stalin as something that you should kind of internalize and believe and think that, yeah, this is great.

我想这有点像海德格尔加入纳粹党。你不必认同他的纳粹主义，但可以欣赏他的现象学之类的东西。

I guess it's bit like Heidegger being in the Nazi party. You're not necessarily subscribing to his Nazism, but may appreciate his phenomenology or something like that.

没错。关于海德格尔我经常思考，听到有人说由于他与纳粹党的关联，你无法真正阅读他的作品。但批判理论中有个有用的观点：作者已死。如果我们从传记角度解读任何作品，认为马克思或海德格尔提出某种理论是因为他们是纳粹或共产主义者什么的。

Yeah. Yeah. And there's a kind of useful, because I think about Heidegger a lot and, you know, hear people saying that, you know, you can't really read his work because of his affiliation with the Nazi party. But there's a useful idea in critical theory that the author is really dead. That if we read any type of work from the point of view of biography, that you know, this must be why Marx said this or that or Heidegger, you know, formulated this kind of theory because he was, you know, a Nazi or a communist or whatever.

但文本自有其生命力。作为批判理论家或任何研究者，你完全有权改变、重新论证、重组已有论述。我想这引出了批判理论的核心实践——始终是读者、研究者、哲学家通过自身批判实践，对材料、文本和研究对象进行重组。这不是简单复制或生搬硬套。

But then, you know, texts, they always have a life of their own. And you as a critical theorist or any type of researcher, you have every right to change, re argue, restructure what has been said. And I guess that brings me to a really kind of, well, a sort of central kind of practice of critical theory that it is always the reader, the researcher, the philosopher who kind of takes material, takes texts, takes the research object and through their own practice, own critical practice, reassembles whatever, you know, has been taken. So it's not about copying or taking something as it is and applying it in a way that or in a sense that, you know, I have this piece, this critical piece, and I have this empirical object, and I'm going to smash them together. And now this is being critical.

但其中始终存在研究者、批评家的主观性和实践，介于理论应用或对象解构之间。

But there's always the subjectivity, the practice of the researcher, of the critic in between that applying or the smashing of the object to the theory.

是的。显然，批判理论的一个特点是它并不试图保持中立，或者说，如果你在这个范式下进行研究，它不会显得中立，对吧？我的意思是，它采取了一种非常特定的视角，可以说是站在特定的立场上，旨在解放那些被压迫或边缘化的人。我的理解是，批判研究不仅仅满足于描述这种压迫，在许多情况下，它还寻求改变或改善参与者的世界或生活。所以我不确定你是否想谈谈批判工作的这种解放性特点。

Yeah. And certainly, it's one thing that critical theory isn't, or if you're conducting research within that paradigm, it doesn't look to be neutral, does it? I mean, it takes a very particular view, takes a particular side if you like, that it looks to it seeks to emancipate those who are, as we said, oppressed or marginalized. And my understanding is that that it's not just enough for critical research to describe this oppression, for example, but actually, in many cases, it looks to change it or to create some sort of improvement, if you like, in the in the participants' worlds or or lives. So I'm not sure if you wanna say something about that and the kind of the emancipatory kind of aspect of critical work.

而作为一名质性研究者，你可能会进入研究领域，试图从概念上理解正在发生的事情，人们之间的关系类型。你甚至可能试图理解权力关系。但批判理论更进一步，认为我们实际上有道德责任去改变这种状况。

Whereas as a researcher, as a quality researcher, you might go into the field to look to have some conceptual understanding of, you know, what's going on, the sorts of relationships people are having. You might even go in and look to try to understand the power relationships. But critical theory goes a little step further and says actually, we've got this moral duty to change this.

是的。这正是批判理论的核心动机。如果我们一般性地思考批判，它确实假设存在某些不太正确、需要改变的东西。但批判理论并不想，或者说它声称不能或不应该规定什么是更好的。因为那样又会陷入那种教条式的解放观，认为这是错的，那可能是更好的。

Yes. That is the central motivation of critical theory. And if we think about criticism in general, it kind of does assume that there needs to be something that is not quite right, that needs to be changed. But critical theory doesn't want to or it claims that it can't or it shouldn't really kind of dictate whatever that better might be. Because that would again kind of fall into that dogmatic view of emancipation that, you know, this is wrong and this might be better.

所以我们必须以某种方式让你

So we have to somehow get You

需要这个。

need this.

是的。而且只是

Yes. And just

有点自上而下的。

kind of top down.

是的，没错。那会是一种专制的方式，你知道。批判理论不能规定路径，或者理想图景，又或是变革的方向。是的。

Yeah, exactly. It's, that would be a kind of authoritarian way, you know. Critical theory can't dictate the path or, you know, the image or the utopian. Or the change. Yeah.

是的。另一方面，批判理论也明确或至少试图公开其自身的意识形态和理论假设。因此，这种自我意识和自我批评再次表明，改变世界的愿望或意志在某种程度上并非中性主张。它总是带有规范性的一面，意思是说，无论我们审视什么，那里存在压迫，这是错误的。这是一个规范性陈述。

Yeah. On the other side of things, critical theory is also expressly or at least tries to be open about its own kind of ideological and theoretical assumptions. So the kind of self awareness and self criticism again about the kind of the desire or the will to change the world is not in some respects, it's not a neutral proposition. It always kind of has a normative side to it, to say that, you know, whatever we're looking at here, there's oppression and it's wrong. That's a normative statement.

而且它不应该存在。这是另一个规范性陈述。所以它并非价值中立。在这些主张中总是存在价值判断，比如我们需要改变某种压迫性的实践。

And it shouldn't be there. That's another normative statement. So there's a kind of it's not value neutral. There are always value judgments going on in these kinds of propositions, where we need to change a practice that's, for example, oppressive.

你知道，我在思考这个关于价值负载或价值中立的概念。在批判范式中，有价值观影响着研究方法，如果你愿意这么说的话，以及所提出的问题和研究者的视角。我想这个概念意味着不存在价值中立的研究？我想实证主义和科学会说我们要剥离价值观，尽一切可能保持客观，不让研究者的价值观渗透到研究领域中。

You know, I'm thinking about this notion of value ladenness or neutralness. Value laden or value freeness. So in the critical paradigm that there are values which inform the research approach, if you like, and the kind of questions which are asked and the the gaze of the of the researcher. I suppose that this notion there is there is no is is there value free research? I guess positivism and science would say that we're to strip out values and do everything we can to be objective and to not let the research's value bleed into into the the kind of field if you like.

但其他定性研究范式也是价值负载的。无论是建构主义范式、女性主义还是其他各种理论，它们都有偏见。我这么说并非贬义，而是指它们都有特定的议程，或者说它们关心的特定事物。

But other qualitative research paradigms are also value laden. So whether it's the constructivist paradigm or feminism or all these different kind of theories, they're all biased. And I mean that in a not a derogatory sense that they've all got a particular agenda, if you like, or a particular thing that they care about.

是的。而且对我来说这是一件积极的事。思考价值负载性或认为存在完全不负载价值的研究，即价值中立的研究，这本身就是一种意识形态。因为就我个人而言，我不相信这种事是可能的，因为如果你声称你的方法是客观的，比如我们看到的研究文章避免使用‘我’这个词，它们避免表达有真实的人在这项研究背后。

Yeah. And And that's a positive thing to me. And thinking about value ladenness or the idea that there would be research that's not in any way value laden, that would be value free. It is a kind of ideology in the sense that, you know, because I personally don't believe that such thing is possible because if you claim that your approach is objective, for example, if we look at research articles that you know avoid using the word I. They avoid using the, you know, expressing that there are people behind this piece of research.

对我来说，这有点做作，不是吗？

And to me that's, you know, it's kind of artificial, isn't it?

我是说，这完全是人为撰写的作品，除非是由AI之类的东西写的，但实际上是人所写。即便是在力求尽可能客观的科学定量研究中，研究仍由人进行，并可能涉及人作为参与者。所以这很有趣。再次强调，关键在于挑战那些规范或传统。比如‘我们一直这样做’或‘这就是科学，这是正确的研究方式’。

I mean, it's completely work was written, unless it was written by AI or something, but it was written by people. And even even even if it's scientific quantitative research where the endeavor is to be as objective as possible, nonetheless, the research was conducted by people and then likely involved people as participants. So it's curious. Again, it's about challenging those norms or those traditions. Well, we've always done it that way, or this is what science is and it's the right way to do research.

是的。我认为挑战客观性概念有两个方面。首先是质疑客观性是否可能实现，其次是挑战追求客观性是否应成为任何研究的理想目标。显然，对于定量研究而言，努力使研究参与者尽可能同质化等做法有其积极意义。

Yeah. I think there's two kind of sides to challenging the idea of objectivity. The first is to challenge the very idea whether objectivity is possible. But the other one is challenging whether the ideal of striving for objectivity is what any kind of research should be about. I mean, there are obviously for quantitative research, there are positive effects of trying to make your research participants as homogeneous as possible and all of that.

但始终需要批判性地看待这种人为构建的情境。这并不是说你不该做定量研究，也不该追求那种被建构的理想。客观性并非天然存在，而是研究者之间的一种契约——这就是客观性的模样，这些是达成它所需的步骤。并非要全盘否定这种做法。

But it is always a staged situation to look at this critically. It's not to say that you shouldn't do quantitative research. And you shouldn't, you know, try to achieve the ideal that it is something that is again constructed. It's not something that's out there, but it is something that we have kind of it is a contract between researchers that this is what objectivity looks like and these are the things that you need to do in order to get there. And it wouldn't be to say that yeah, shouldn't do that.

而是要将那些在定量研究中被视为理所当然的问题、质疑和批评带入意识层面——某种程度上，我认为定性和理论研究中也存在类似情况。

But it's just kind of bringing into consciousness the issues and the questions and the kind of criticism of those kinds of things that are taken for granted in quantitative research and to some extent, I guess, in also qualitative and theoretical research too.

那么当你考虑是否将研究置于批判范式，或用批判理论来塑造定性研究时——假设它们同义——你必须认同该理论，因为这是你审视整个研究问题、研究领域（如果你愿意）和研究视角的透镜。鉴于批判理论可能成为一种个人立场，渗透生活的诸多方面，我想知道：相比其他研究范式，你需要在多大程度上亲身践行这种理论？你可能以非研究者身份走在街上，却会不自觉地用批判理论视角观察事物，看到压迫、边缘化或各种歧视现象。

And so what do you when thinking about whether or not to situate one's research in the critical paradigm or use critical theory to kind of shape your qualitative study, let's say they're synonymous, I suppose you've got to you obviously got to subscribe to the theory because that's the that's the lens that you're viewing the entire kind of research problem and research field, if you like, and the research question. I wonder how much personally given that critical theory can be a kind of personal position to hold, it invades so many aspects of life. You might walk down the street as a as a nonresearcher and just kinda notice see things in a kinda critical theory way, if you like. You would see the oppression or the marginalization or all those the discrimination. I wonder how much that you whether or not compared to other kind of research paradigms or frameworks, you've got to kind of live the theory yourself.

因此需要保持一致性。你的个人观点或立场必须与研究立场一致。我好奇这与其它研究方法的差异——在其他方法中，你可以戴上‘我是解释主义者’的小帽子，而业余时间或日常生活中却是个坚定的实证主义者，相信科学等等。这很有趣。

So it needs to be congruent. You've got to have a kind of your your own personal view or personal position has to be congruent with your research position. And I wonder how different that you think that is compared to other kind of research approaches where you can just put your little hat on, which says I'm a interpretivist. But actually, you know, in my spare time or my daily life, I'm actually a strong positivist, and I believe in science and all that stuff. And, yeah, it's interesting.

只是因为批判理论已深深渗透政治话语、媒体话语和社会生活，让人难以回避？

Only because the how much critical theory has invaded political discourse and media discourse and social life that it's hard to avoid?

这个问题确实很有趣，因为我认为除非你真正理解并内化了一个理论，否则你无法真正深入思考它——而且是以批判性的方式。我的意思是，你不能像之前说的那样，仅仅读了一点理论就断言‘哦，这里明显有福柯思想的影子’。批判理论不是这样运作的。但另一个问题是，作为批判理论家，我们是否应该在日常生活中践行这种思维方式。不过我觉得这在某种程度上是可以避免的。

That's a really interesting question because I would say that you I do believe that there's that you can't really really think through a theory unless you have really understood it and really kind of internalized it, but in a critical sense. And what I mean by that is that you don't just, as I said before, you don't just read the bit of the theory and think, oh yes, you know, I definitely see a Foucauldian thing there. You know, because critical theory doesn't work that way. But it's another question whether that is something that we should, as critical theorists, enact in our everyday life. But I think it's kind of avoidable.

当你相信自己从事的事业和思考所依托的理论框架时，就很难做到‘下班关机’，很难在业余时间完全切换成另一种思维模式。

You think about believing in what you do and believing in that theoretical framework that you are thinking through, then it's really difficult not to, or it's really difficult to be kind of a switch off and trying to be something else in your spare time.

是的，我觉得你说得非常对。你的回答很精彩，而且正如你所说这是个有趣的问题。我认为简单来说，就像我读博时和指导博士生时的经验——你需要选择一个与你世界观相符的研究范式。比如你如何看待医患互动？

Yeah. I think you're completely right. I think you've answered it really well, and I think it was a you said it was an interesting question. I don't think it is that I think the simple answer is is a bit like, you know, when I was a PhD student, when I supervised doctoral students, you're supposed to say something like, pick a kind of paradigm which is or think when you're thinking about the paradigm that you're gonna situate your research in, it needs to be congruent or think about how you see the world. How do you see, you know, patient clinician interactions?

你如何看待临床实践？如何看待医疗资源分配？这些认知会随着你的硕士或博士学习进程而改变，但最终会趋于稳定。你会形成个人对这个领域的立场，同时这个立场也与你选择的研究范式或理论相契合。

How do you see clinical practice? How do you see access to health care? What what are your and I suppose that and that will be as you go through something like a a PhD or or a master's, that will change as you learn more. But I think that it does end up settling. There's some kind of arrival at a position which you personally view this area or this field, but also is congruent with the paradigm or theory which you're gonna view it with.

所以我同意你的观点。特别是定性研究中，研究者的参与性决定了其个人立场至关重要。如果一个人在生活中支持压迫与边缘化，却去开展批判性研究分析其他领域的边缘化现象，这会非常怪异。因为研究者的主体性决定了研究问题、分析和提问方式，这两者根本无法割裂，它们是深度交织的。

So so I think you're right. I I don't think and I think with qualitative research, given that the participatory nature of the researcher, that it very much does matter the personal views that they hold because it's value laden, that it would be weird if you were pro oppression and marginalization in your personal life and then went and did a a critical piece of research looking at marginalization and oppression in a different field, because it is subjective, it's the very being of the researcher which shapes the research problem and the analysis and the questions which are asked, that you can't just disaggregate the two, that they're very much entwined.

没错，我认为这几乎是不可能做到的。

Yeah. I would say that it's almost impossible to do that.

而且严格来说也不理想。我们总假设能分离立场就能保持客观，可以把个人观点‘暂存’起来。但如果你要让理论渗透你的思维，那么你开展的研究类型、提出的问题以及分析方法反而会更具洞察力。

And and arguably not ideal, but the we we presume that if we can separate it, then we can be objective and then we can park our but I think you would very much be critical about your views. But it would if you're gonna sensitize by the theory, then the sorts of research that you're gonna conduct and the kind of questions you're gonna ask and your analysis will be much more kinda insightful.

是的。我认为如果一个人不相信自己所进行的研究，无论是定量、定性还是理论研究，都无法产生深刻而有思想深度的研究成果。总会显得流于表面。正如你提到的，作为博士研究者深入理论时，必须对所用理论抱有最初的兴趣或认同观点。但理论也会反过来塑造你这个人。

Yeah. I think if if one doesn't believe in the research that one does, I mean, be it quantitative, qualitative or theoretical, it can't result into a deep kind of thoughtful piece of research. Always remains somehow superficial. And the theories that we kind of start to, as you mentioned, you know, if you're being a PhD researcher and kind of getting into theory, theory, I mean, you have to have that initial interest or the views that kind of go with the theory that you're using. But also the theory starts to shape who you are.

所以我认为这是不可避免的。如果你真正内化或理解了你的理论、范式或研究中所用的任何工具，它就会变得与你的主观性密不可分。

So it is, I think it is unavoidable. If you really internalize or you really understand your theory or your paradigm or whatever tools that you are using in research. And it does come it becomes kind of inseparable from your subjectivity.

说得非常好。我认为现在可以考虑的是，批判理论的广度意味着从这个立场出发可以进行的质性研究范围相当广泛——批判理论不像扎根理论、民族志、主题分析或会话分析那样是具体的研究形式，而是处于更高、更宏观的层面。

Yeah. No. It's really nicely put. And I think it might be one way to one way to go now is to think about the breadth of critical theory means that the sorts of qualitative research which can be conducted from that position are pretty broad, that it's not it's not critical theory isn't a form of research like grounded theory or, I suppose, ethnography or thematic analysis or conversation analysis. Whereas critical theory is at a higher level, I think, macro level.

这是一个更广泛、更抽象的层面，影响范围更大。理论本身会指导方法论，虽然也会影响具体方法，但方法本身变化不大。批判理论并没有独特的数据收集方法，无非是访谈、观察、文本分析等。比如你的研究就采取了批判理论立场，却运用现象学来理解康复治疗中的以患者为中心理念——是康复治疗吧？

It's a kind of broader level, more abstract level where it has greater reach. So the theory in itself informs informs methodologies and subsequent well, it doesn't it I mean, it does inform methods, but the methods themselves don't change too much. I mean, these there aren't specific data collection methods which are unique to critical theory. They're gonna be interviews, observations, textual analysis. Maybe and I think we can maybe draw upon your own work here where you've taken a critical theorist position, but used phenomenology to understand patient centeredness in the context of rehabilitation or was it rehabilitation?

在...的背景下

In the context of

是的，神经康复。

Yeah. Neurological.

神经康复治疗。或许你可以谈谈批判理论作为范式是如何处于顶层（或底层基础支撑），以及方法论和具体方法可能的发展路径。

Neurological rehabilitation. So maybe just say if you can say something about how we've got critical theories as paradigm either at the top or maybe it's underpinning at the bottom, I'm not quite sure. And the potential ways that one might go in terms of methodology and methods.

是的，没错。你说得很对，批判理论中确实没有任何具体的数据收集方法。它更多是关于，正如你所说，基础的理论框架，但也可以作为一种视角、工具或分析事物的方式。例如，在你提到的研究中，我的同事使用了解释性现象学分析及其数据收集方法，即访谈。

Yeah. Yes. You're quite right that there's there aren't any kind of data collection, specific data collection methods in critical theory. It is more about, as you said, the underpinning theoretical framework, but also it can be used as a form of a lens or a tool or a way to analyze things. So, for example, in the research that you mentioned, my colleague used interpretative phenomenological analysis and its methods of data collection, so interviews.

她运用该框架分析了数据或访谈材料。而我作为哲学家，则通过批判理论来解读这种解释或分析。因此，这形成了一种有趣的结合——批判性分析与现象学数据收集和分析的结合。但确实，我不认为批判理论必然排斥定性研究和数据收集，然后运用批判理论中的概念来分析这些数据。只是它本身并未提供收集或生成数据的工具。

And she analyzed the data or the interview material using that framework. But then I came in as a philosopher to kind of interpret that interpretation or the analysis through critical theory. So it's funny kind of combination between kind of critical analysis and phenomenological data collection and analysis. But yeah, because I don't see that it's necessarily incompatible with critical theory that you would do qualitative research and data collection, and then use concepts, for example, from critical theory to analyze that data. But it doesn't really give you any tools to collect data or generate data.

嗯。我想在与戴夫·尼科尔斯交流时，可以和他探讨这一点。但有一种研究方法或方法论似乎与批判理论紧密相关，那就是话语分析，其中话语及其所代表的权力，是批判理论家族的重要组成部分。对吧？

Mhmm. And I suppose and I can explore this with Dave Nichols when I speak with him. But one research method or methodology which does seem closely tied to critical theory is discourse analysis, where discourse and the power which that discourse represents, that's very much part of the critical theory family. Right? That it is

是的，没错。因为它源自福柯的著作。从某种意义上说，这是少数可以被转化为方法的进路之一。我还能想到其他几个例子。

Yeah. Yeah. Because that it has its origins in, of course, Foucault's work. And it's one of those kind of approaches that can be made into a method, in a sense. There are a few others that I can think of off the top of my head.

其中之一当然是组合理论，它也被用于康复研究，源自德勒兹与加塔利的著作。另一个是解构性阅读，源自法国哲学家雅克·德里达。因此，这些解读文本和处理定性材料的方式，都可以被用作方法。但总有个恼人的事实要记住——我刚才提到的所有理论（话语分析、组合理论和解构）的作者都明确表示过，这些并非方法。但这不意味着它们不能被用作方法。

One is, of course, assemblage theory that has been used in rehabilitation research too and that comes from Deleuze and Quattari's work. And then another one is kind of deconstructive reading, which comes from the French philosopher Jacques Derrida. So there are these kind of approaches or ways of reading texts and ways of approaching qualitative material that can be used as methods. But there's always the annoying thing to remember that I think all of these that I mentioned, both discourse, analysis, assemblage theory and deconstruction, all of their authors say explicitly that, you know, this is not a method. But it doesn't mean that it can't be used as a method.

关键在于它们不是方法，这意味着需要分析师或研究者主动运用或进行解读。所以它们并非传统意义上的方法。

But there's the point of them not being methods is that it again, it needs the analyst or the researcher to use them or or do the reading. So it's not method in the kind of, I guess, traditional sense.

没错。关于批判理论如何影响定性研究，我想到的一个例子是播客前嘉宾克丽米·莫斯科托的工作。她是澳大利亚的博士生，我知道你们彼此认识，同属批判物理治疗团体。她几期前做客播客时，谈到她以批判视角研究生物心理社会模型与腰痛护理的关系。

Yeah. So thinking about how critical theory might shape possible qualitative inquiry, I suppose one example that comes to mind is the work by a former guest on the podcast, Creamy Moskuto, who was who is rather a PhD student in Australia. I know you guys know each other. You're part of the kind of critical physio group. And so she came onto the podcast, and it's got to be three or four episodes ago now where she spoke about her critically orientated work, which looked to examine the bio psychosocial model in relation to back pain care.

这是关于她的博士研究。在与她交谈时，可以明显看出批判理论如何塑造她的研究工作。回想我们之前讨论过的批判视角——质疑那些被视为理所当然的假设与传统，审视权力关系等——她正在检视生物心理社会模型。这个在疾病、疼痛或医疗领域颇具主导地位的理论模型，她着重分析其中被默认的前提假设，比如权力关系、伦理道德问题，以及它们如何与腰痛治疗相关联。她采用的研究方法——虽然细节上我们可能无法完全准确复述——带有民族志色彩，包含参与式观察。

This is for her PhD. So in talking to her, it became quite apparent how critical theory is shaping her research work that she's and if we kind of make think about what we talked about before about critiquing, kind of taking for granted assumptions and tradition and looking at power and all that kind of stuff, that she's examining the bio psychosocial model, which is this somewhat dominant theory of of disease or pain or health care, and looking at the taken for granted assumptions within that model such as power relations, ethical, and moral issues, and how they relate to back pain care. And so with that, the sorts of methods that she's using, and I'm sure she'll forgive us for not getting all the detail completely right. Hopefully, we won't we won't be misrepresenting it. But the methods that she's she's using is has kind of ethnographic flavors of participatory observations.

我猜她是在诊室里观察 clinician 和患者的互动，看生物心理社会模型如何运作，但不止于表面观察。她戴着'批判理论'的眼镜（这眼镜在任何大型零售商都能买到），这让她特别关注权力关系等要素在实际场景中的呈现方式。她还做了系统性文献批判，分析那些声称采用生物心理社会取向的研究，审视其中权力分配、患者偏好与模型的关系等。这很好地展示了理论如何塑造方法论并指导具体研究方法。

So I'm guessing sitting in a room with a clinician and a patient and looking at how the biosuggestial model plays out, but not just seeing how it plays out. I guess she's got a particular pair of glasses on, which are called kind of critical theory glasses, which you can buy from any major retailer. But that's giving her a particular perspective on the power and all the stuff I just mentioned about how it's how it's kinda happening, how it's how it's playing out in front of her. And likewise, she's done a critical review, reviewing the research which has claimed to take a biased subsocial approach and looking at all those sorts of things, power, where people's preferences lie in relation to the model. So I think it's a really good example to see how the theory can shape the methodology and inform methods.

是的。我读过她部分著作，特别有趣的是她批判的对象本身最初就是为批判主流生物医学模型而诞生的。这种对'理所当然'框架的挑战很有价值，她运用批判理论中的核心概念——尤其是关于权力关系的分析——来审视当下在腰痛治疗等领域占主导地位的整体论模型。

Yeah. I've read some of her work and I find it particularly interesting that that she's critiquing something that has kind of originally developed to be a criticism of the dominant biomedical model. So I think there's definitely the kind of challenging that's taken for granted aspect to it, and also looking at the power relationship kind of using these driving, motivating concepts and issues that arise from critical theory to criticize. Now a pretty dominant kind of holistic model of looking at, especially back pain. It's really often used in that context.

我想区分两种批判性工作：一种是在阅读、观察质性材料时运用批判理论的概念与议题；另一种是选定某位理论家的特定框架，用其理论透镜来解读观察对象。前者理论聚焦更强，后者则更侧重通过质性数据挖掘现象中隐含的议题。

What I would like to kind of also make the distinction between critical work in the sense of reading and observing and employing these critical concepts and issues and ideas to that qualitative material. And the kind of other type of approach that you might take is to read a particular theorist or a particular kind of focus that some theorists have taken and kind of using what they have written to understand what you are observing. So there's a stronger theoretical kind of focus that you could take. Or you could just, you know, use qualitative data generation methods and then trying to see and kind of pry out these issues that might be whatever you're observing.

确实。理论研究可以有深浅之分：有的研究只是带着批判理论的意识，关注某些社会经济现象却不深入分析；而像你或Kareemi的研究则需要更彻底地沉浸于理论哲学中，保持严谨和专注——这本质上已成为研究工作不可分割的部分。

Yeah. And I guess that you can it might be the case that you can use the theory to different degrees that you can be a researcher that is just you know, I guess you can have kind of a piece of research which is in the spirit of critical theory, which just, you know, pays attention to some of these some of these kind of social or economic kind of phenomena, if you like, but doesn't necessarily go into kind of huge kind of analysis, but just there's a kind of sense of how this how this writing takes place. And then, like, in in your work or I'm sure Kareemi's work, there's a a need to be much more thorough, I suppose, and rigorous and dedicated to the to the philosophy and the theory as part essentially of immersing yourself in the work?

没错。由于我的哲学背景，深入理论思考几乎是本能。我喜欢说自己是'与理论家共同思考'而非简单套用理论。不过完全可以在不陷入繁琐哲学论证的前提下进行批判研究——只是要警惕断章取义的风险。

Yeah. I guess in my work, because I have a background in philosophy, so that's kind of unavoidable that I really want to get deep into those theories and thinking. I like to use the expression I'm thinking with a theorist rather than through or applying their work to whatever I do. But it's a fully legitimate way to approach phenomena critically without having to go through all of that kind of tedious philosophical work. Because there's also the danger of cutting through corners, so to speak.

如果只从批判理论著作中截取某个概念而不理解其背景脉络和深层含义...这些理论的使用门槛很高，该怎么说才得体呢？

If I would take just a piece of text or one concept from a book by a critical theorist and just focusing on that without really understanding the context and background and the implications of that concept. So, there's it's really demanding sometimes to use these theories because they aren't, how to say this diplomatically?

我认为没错。当我与扎根理论学者交谈，或是与Perio讨论现象学时，我发现这些理论的应用方式存在某种现象——你可以给某项研究贴上批判理论、宏大理论或现象学的标签，但实际上可能只是对这些理论前提或理念敷衍了事。于是你开始偷工减料，这算不上真正意义上的'真实'——或许该说大写的真实还是小写的真实？我也说不清。

I think right. I think that when I've spoken to the grounded theorists and I speak to Perio about phenomenology, that there is something about how these theories are used that you can badge something as a piece of critical theory work or research or as a grander theory or phenomenology or you can pay pretty little or you're just paying lip service, if you like, to the to the actual theoretical premises or ideas. So and then you begin to cut corners, and you're not really being true true with a small t, I think. Maybe it's a big t, small t. I don't know.

没有忠实于理念，忠实于理论本身。我想问题在于，这种做法就像挂羊头卖狗肉——并非说某种研究方法本身不好，而是分析与写作未必能体现该理论的核心思想。

True to the to the idea, to the to the theory. And I suppose that the the problem with that, I suppose, is that it's not what it says on the tin that it's bad as a particular approach, but the analysis and the writing doesn't necessarily reflect the the underpinning ideas of that theory.

是的。这些理论都背负着理论和历史的包袱。而且我常说，阅读理论和哲学就像学习一门新语言。有时你会看到有人使用一个哲学史上含义深厚的词汇，却只用了它的日常含义，这就无法准确传达那个词应有的哲学意涵。

Yeah. And there's a theoretical and kind of historical baggage to all of these theories. And also, I like to often say that, you know, reading theory and reading philosophy is like learning a new language. And sometimes, you know, might see someone use a word that has a lot of history in philosophy, but it also has an everyday meaning. And it is kind of used in an everyday sense and it doesn't quite, you know, capture what the idea of that word might be.

所以这些都是需要注意的。某种程度上，阅读批判理论永远是个持续的过程——需要阅读大量内容，理解很多概念，但这不该让你望而却步。

So there are these kind of things that one just needs to be aware of again. And it's always a work in progress in a way, reading critical theory. There's a lot to read. There's a lot to understand. But it shouldn't kind of put you off.

你这话是在针对我吧？

My Your direction is at me, aren't you, really?

没错。我的建议是：从某个地方开始读起，别觉得必须读完所有著作才能理解。因为理论家们早期的著作可能与他们后期的思想大相径庭——毕竟我们所有人都是这样成长的，不是吗？

Yeah. Yeah. My advice would be to just start somewhere and don't think you need to read everything in order to understand it. Because theorists also, they might have like early writings that are different to what they, you know, thought when they were older. Because that happens to all of us, doesn't it?

所以这可能需要大量工作，可能很枯燥，但绝对是可以完成的。

So it can be a lot of work. It can be tedious. But it's completely doable.

好吧，既然你在这里——或者说我们并非偶然相遇——我要说最后一点。如你所知，我和珍妮·塞切尔讨论过后质性研究，可能也会与大卫·尼科尔斯涉及这个话题。因此这期节目大概会安排在珍妮和大卫的节目之前播出，这样就能形成从批判理论到后质性研究，再到大卫的'随心问'环节的相对连贯过渡。回到你刚才说的，在批判理论家的审视范围内，其实没有什么话题是真正不可批判的。

Well, I said one final thing, seeing as you're seeing as you're here, or it's not like we accidentally bumped at each other. But as you know, in speaking with Jenny Setchel about post qualitative inquiry and probably touch on the subject with David Nichols. So where this episode will probably sit is just before Jenny and Dave's episodes. So it should be a relatively consistent or coherent jump from critical theory to post qualitative inquiry and then to to Dave's ask him anything. I suppose so coming back to when you said nothing's really out of bounds in regards to what's up for critiquing or what what can possibly lie in the gaze of critical theorists.

后质性研究很大程度上源自批判理论运动——当批判理论开始质疑质性研究内部的假设、研究者的角色，以及那种将理性人类和思考者置于中心地位的观念。这像是一个完整的循环或半圆...不知道你是否想就此说点什么？这可以自然衔接到珍妮接下来要讲的批判理论与后质性研究的关联。

And post qualitative inquiry has pretty much come from that that movement where critical theory has begun to question the assumptions even within qualitative researchers and the role of the researcher and this decentering of the kind of rational human and the thinking man, all that kind of stuff. And so there's this there was a full circle or half a circle, but it's it seems to me so I don't know if you want to say anything which will neatly lead on to Jenny's talk, which will be next, about the connection between critical theory and post qualitative inquiry or anything to to add to that?

虽然我对后质性研究绝非专家，但确实存在与法国批判理论的传承关系。这种后质性和后人类研究试图消解人类或人类主体作为唯一重要主体的中心地位——那种认为人类应该被供奉在神坛上、其认知才是所有研究终极目标的观念。某种程度上我觉得这个观点很有说服力，尽管如我所说，我并非专家，阅读量可能也不够。但在这个时代，去中心化人类的理念确实至关重要——特别是当我们所处的生存环境（比如自然）可能毁灭我们的时候。

I'm in no way an expert on post qualitative research. But, yeah, there is a connection or inheritance from French critical theory that, you know, leads to the kind of post qualitative and post human work that tries to decenter the human being or the human subject as the kind of the only subject that matters and should be, you know, put on a pedestal and kind of that knowledge of that subject is the goal of all research, qualitative or otherwise. So, do find it compelling to some extent because I well, obviously I haven't, as I said, I'm no expert on this and I haven't read as much as I perhaps should. But there's the idea of de centering the human being is something that's, it is quite critical in the age that we are living in. In which the very conditions for living, I.

重视非人类生命的观念对理解当今世界非常重要。主权人类主体的概念几乎与哲学史一样悠久，因此能用这种全新视角来理解人类与非人类/非动物世界构成的网络，确实令人振奋。

E. Nature, the environment is something that might destroy us. So kind of the idea that, you know, valuing other than human life is something that I think is really important for understanding our world today. The idea of the sovereign human subject is as long as the history of philosophy really, almost as long as the history of philosophy. So, it is something quite exciting to have that different kind of lens into understanding the human in this kind of whole network of human and nonhuman and non animal world.

对于想更多了解批判理论的人，面对历史上众多理论家和学派，你会建议他们从哪里入门？有什么易于理解的途径吗？

What would be your advice to someone that wanted to read a bit more about critical theory, given the range of names and authors and movers and shakers over the years, where would someone start? What would be an accessible way into critical theory?

我建议先读哲学视角的通用导论，同时推荐看看质性研究者如何论述批判理论，观察其他领域（非物理治疗领域）如何运用这些理论。了解他人如何应用理论总是有益的。有了基础认知后，可以每次专注研究一位理论家——

I would say that a good general introduction, but from the kind of philosophical point of view, would be good to read. And then I would also advise people to look at how qualitative researchers have written about critical theory. How they have used looking into research from other fields than physiotherapy. Because it's always useful to see how other people have utilized any kind of theory to see work that has been published. And I guess from there, once you've kind of started reading introductions and have a general idea of what type of theories you think that are interesting and you want to read more, then focus on one theorist at a time.

我就经常没这么做（笑），结果把自己搞得晕头转向。所以专注研究单个理论家确实很有效。还有关键的一点：当你引用或转述理论家观点时，即便参考二手文献，也务必核查原始文献的上下文，确保理解准确。因为二手文献总是带着作者的解读滤镜，永远不能完全采信。

So I have a tendency not to do that. And you know, you can really do your head in. So yeah, focusing on one theorist at a time is really useful. And whenever, this is a really important one that I would like to say that whenever you are using a theorist and perhaps quoting them or paraphrasing what they say, always try to, even if you're using a secondary source, always try to go to the primary source to check the context, to check that you have really understood what they are saying in that primary source. Because you can't really ever trust a secondary source in the sense that it is always written through the understanding of whoever has written that piece of secondary writing.

那么我想这就是我能给出的快速建议了。

So I guess this would be my quick advice.

太棒了，真的很有帮助。关于批判理论和定性研究，我想说的是，我可能要推荐我购买或阅读的第一本定性研究书籍，我会在节目笔记中附上链接，是Jerry Willis所著的《定性研究基础：解释性与批判性方法》。这本书非常好，详细剖析了我们讨论的许多内容，对我来说是个很好的入门读物。

Brilliant. That's really helpful. I think what I was going to say is just in regards to critical theory and qualitative research is to probably for me to recommend the first the first ever qualitative research book that I purchased or read, I think, and I'll link these in the show notes, is by Jerry Willis, and it's called Foundations of Qualitative Research, Interpretive, and Critical Approaches. That's really good, and that breaks down much, if not a lot more of what we've been talking about. That was a good entry point for me.

是的，我也读过其中关于批判理论的章节，写得非常清晰易懂，没有那些哲学批判方法常有的专业术语。

Yeah. I also read the critical theory chapter in it, and it it is really clear. It's clearly written. It's really approachable. It doesn't use the jargon that usually comes with kind of philosophical critical approaches.

所以这确实是个非常好的起点。

So it is a really good way to a really good point to start.

安娜，非常感谢你。

Anna, thank you so much.

非常感谢你，奥利。

Thank you very much, Ollie.

如果你喜欢本期播客，请访问www.wordsmatter-education.com查看所有节目笔记、资源和博客，并了解与腰痛相关的语言沟通在线课程。我们下次见。

If you enjoyed this podcast, visit www.wordsmatter-education.com for all the show notes, resources, and blogs, and check out the online course in language and communication in relation to back pain. And I'll see you next time.