241. 团队精神：如何让团队协作行之有效

嗨，我是Matt。

Hi, Matt here.

非常兴奋地告诉大家，我们十一月的通讯已经发布了。

I'm super excited to let you know that our November newsletter is out.

在其中，你将学到如何成功主持问答环节，无论是用于面试、演讲后还是会议中。

In it, you'll learn about how to run very successful question and answer sessions, be it for interviews or after a presentation or during meetings.

此外，你还能抢先一睹我们全新的'快速思考 智慧表达'学习社区。

Plus, you'll get a first glimpse into our new Think Fast Talk Smart learning community.

在LinkedIn或fastersmarter.io网站的'资源与通讯'板块查看详情。

Check it out on LinkedIn or at fastersmarter.io under Resources and Newsletter.

在'快速思考 智慧表达'，我们追求高效。

Here at Think Fast Talk Smart, we move fast.

从撰写面试问题到精心准备邮件、提案和演讲笔记。

From writing interview questions to crafting emails, proposals, and presentation notes.

但在不同工具间切换处理这些内容，确实会拖慢你的节奏。

But juggling all those pieces across different tools, that can really slow you down.

切换标签页、在应用间复制粘贴、试图记住最后编辑的位置，既耗时又令人沮丧。

Switching tabs, copying and pasting between apps, trying to remember where the last edit lives, it's time consuming and quite honestly a little frustrating.

这就是我使用Grammarly的原因。

That's why I use Grammarly.

它专为专业人士设计，让你在一个平台就能完成从空白页面到完美成稿的全过程。

It's tailor made for professionals who need to take a project from blank page to polished finish all in one place.

AI技术不会消失。

And AI isn't going anywhere.

何不将其转化为你的优势？

So why not use it to your advantage?

Grammarly的实时建议、语气反馈和AI聊天功能帮助我更快速地进行头脑风暴和精细调整。

Grammarly's real time suggestions, tone feedback, and AI chat help me brainstorm and fine tune faster.

让创意源源不断，专注于真正重要的——你的核心信息。

So keep your ideas flowing and stay focused on what really matters, your message.

免费注册，体验Grammarly如何从头至尾提升你的专业写作水平。

Sign up for free and experience how Grammarly can elevate your professional writing from start to finish.

访问grammarly.com/podcast。

Visit grammarly.com/podcast.

网址是grammarly.com/podcast。

That's grammarly.com/podcast.

我们都身处多重群体之中——家庭、同事圈、朋友团体。

We are all members of multiple groups and teams, our families, our coworkers, our friends.

在群体中进行有效沟通的能力至关重要。

The ability to communicate effectively in groups is critical.

我是马特·亚伯拉罕斯，在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略沟通课程。

My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，智慧表达》播客节目。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天非常高兴能与科林·费舍尔共度时光。

Today I am really excited to spend time with Colin Fisher.

科林是伦敦大学学院管理学院组织与创新方向的副教授。

Colin is an associate professor of organizations and innovation at University College London School of Management.

他的研究专注于帮助团队在需要创造力、即兴发挥和复杂决策的情境中提升表现。

His research focuses on helping groups and teams in situations requiring creativity, improvisation, and complex decision making.

他的最新著作是《解锁群体的秘密力量》。

His latest book is The Unlocking the Secret Power of Groups.

欢迎你，科林。

Welcome, Colin.

非常期待我们接下来的对话。

I'm really excited for our conversation.

非常感谢你的邀请，马特。

Thanks so much for having me, Matt.

我很期待。

Looking forward to it.

太好了。

Excellent.

我们可以开始了吗？

Shall we get started?

好的。

Yeah.

和你一样，我长期以来一直对群体及其影响着迷。

Like you, I have long been fascinated by groups and their impact.

我曾经教授过群体沟通课程，总是先向学生们讲述群体的益处与风险。

I used to teach classes on group communication, and I always start by talking to my students about the benefits and perils of groups.

所以我觉得我们也从这里开始很合理。

So I thought it would make sense for us to start there too.

从你的角度来看，能否分享一下群体的优势以及我们在其中工作的

From your perspective, can you share what are the advantages and some of the disadvantages of groups and the work we

一些劣势？

do in them?

群体的优势在某种程度上几乎显而易见到我们甚至不会去思考。

The advantages of groups are, on some level, they're almost so obvious we don't even think about them.

我们能为问题带来更多智慧。

We bring more minds to the problem.

我们能汇聚更多人的劳动。

We bring more people's labor.

众人拾柴火焰高的理念正是我们组建群体的原因。

The idea of the many hands make light the work is why we come to groups.

如果我们独自尝试，永远无法完成的事情，通过群体合作就能实现。

We can accomplish things that we could never do if we tried to go it alone.

在我看来，群体可以成为人类成就的巅峰。

Groups can be, in my mind, the pinnacle of human accomplishment.

但正如你的问题所暗示的，群体也存在一些弊端。

But as your question implies, there's some downsides too.

群体也可能成为制造一致性的引擎，严重限制人们的个性，以至于我们创造了'群体思维'这样的术语，或者将那些存在极端一致性压力的群体称为邪教。群体内部也存在这些倾向：限制我们，剥夺我们的个性，有时让我们变成最糟糕的自己，激发出我们内心那种作为战争根源、群体间冲突以及各种可怕事物基础的部落主义。

Groups can also be these engines to produce conformity, to really restrict people's individuality that we have terms like groupthink or, you know, that we call these groups that there have these extreme conformity pressures to be cults, and that groups have all these tendencies within them as well to restrict us, to to take away our individuality, and to sometimes make us the worst versions of ourselves where they bring out of us this kind of tribalism that is at the root of war and intergroup conflict and all kinds of terrible things in

这个世界。

the world.

所以群体确实具有这种两面性。

So so groups really are this dichotomy.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

一方面，我们有创造力这个概念，它确实能激发我们最好的一面。

On one side, we have this notion of creativity, which really can bring out the best in us.

另一方面则存在极端的一致性，这确实会导致许多负面后果。

And then we have on the other side extreme conformity, which can really lead to a lot of negative things.

因此关键在于：如何最大化群体的益处，同时最小化那些负面影响？

So the trick becomes how do we maximize for the benefits of groups and minimize for those negatives?

那么成功团队、团队协作的关键要素是什么？

So what are key ingredients for successful teams, teaming and teamwork?

我想到的因素包括：成员多样性、心理安全感、明确的目标和清晰的角色分工。

I think about things like diversity of participation, psychological safety, having clear purpose, clear roles.

你认为成功开展群体工作最重要的方面有哪些？

What do you see as some of the most important aspects for successful group work?

你刚才已经直接提到了一些非常重要的因素。

You got some of the really important ones right off the bat there.

群体的优势源于拥有多元的知识、技能和视角。

The benefits of groups come from having diverse knowledge, skills, and perspectives.

我们常说的团队协作效应，只有在成员们思维各异、知识技能互补并相互分享时才会真正显现。

The the kind of synergy that we talk about in group work really only emerges when we don't all think the same thing, when we don't all have the same knowledge and skills, and that we share them with one another.

因此我们需要谨慎组建团队。

So we need to compose groups carefully.

但在组建过程中，我们常犯的一个错误就是没有考虑团队规模应该多大。

But one of the things that we often make a mistake in when we compose them is that we don't think about how big those groups should be.

结果往往导致团队规模普遍过大。

And so we end up often with groups most commonly that are too big.

最典型的例子就是会议。

Prototypical example of these are meetings.

我们都能想象到，最糟糕的情况莫过于参加一个20人的会议，因为根本无法真正听取每个人的观点。

We can all imagine one of the worst things to be in is a meeting that's got 20 people in it because we know we're not gonna be able to really hear everyone's perspective.

我们无法了解每个人掌握的信息和想法。

We're not gonna be able to know what everyone knows, what everyone thinks.

比20人会议更糟的，就只有25人或30人的会议了。

The only thing worse than this meeting of 20 people is a meeting with 25 people or 30 people.

我们必须认真思考，一个团队究竟要控制在多大规模才能实现这种协同互动。

We have to be thoughtful about how big a group can really be to have this kind of synergistic interaction.

我很好奇。

So I'm curious.

关于团队规模，研究怎么说？

What does the research say about group size?

是否存在理想的团队规模？

Is there an ideal group size?

这取决于你要完成的任务类型吗？

Does it depend on the task you're trying to complete?

这确实取决于你试图完成的任务。

It does depend on the task you're trying to complete.

我喜欢给出一个相当明确的答案，因为它并不像我们想象的那样依赖于任务本身。

I like to give a fairly definitive answer to this because it doesn't depend as much on the task as we'd like to think.

其中一项研究探讨了不同任务下团队规模对绩效的影响。

One is a line of research that looks across different tasks at the effect of group size on team performance.

在这种情况下，根据任务不同，你会得到三到七人不等的最佳规模答案。

And that there you get answers depending on the task anywhere from three to seven.

但当你询问人们时，他们什么时候会觉得所在团队规模过大或过小？

But then when you ask people, when do you feel like the groups you're in are too big or too small?

你会得到关于团队规模过大和过小的两种反馈线。

And you get the line of my group is too big and my group is too small.

这两条线正好在4.5人左右相交。

They cross right about 4.5.

我们认为四到五人是团队规模的理想区间，而实际绩效数据显示这个范围可能在三人到七人之间。

We feel that groups are the right size between four and five and that we see performance measures be anywhere from three to seven.

因此我认为这些都是思考团队规模时很好的参考标准。

And so the I think those are pretty good guidelines for thinking about how big your group should be.

我认为确定团队规模的基准非常重要，因为人们往往倾向于纳入更多人，或者由于组织内其他沟通障碍的存在，会议成为传递信息的唯一途径。

I think having an anchor for group size is really important because there's a tendency to wanna include more people or perhaps because other communication challenges exist within an organization's meetings become the only way to convey information.

所以'人多力量大'常成为思维定式，但听起来事实并非如此。

So more is better is often the mindset, but it sounds like that's not the case.

我想更深入地探讨其他几个方面。

I'd like to dig a little deeper into a couple of the other aspects.

我们曾邀请艾米·埃德蒙森讨论过心理安全感的话题。

We had Amy Edmondson on, we talked a bit about psychological safety.

很想听听您对如何构建高效团队的见解——通过确保多样化的观点和视角能够被舒适地分享。

Curious to get your perspective on how we go about building groups that can be more effective by making sure that those diverse points of view and perspectives feel comfortable being shared.

如果你曾交谈过

If you've talked

与艾米交谈，你便获得了最顶尖的建议。

to Amy, you've really gotten the best advice that's out there.

正如你所说，心理安全感至关重要，因为即便我们团队汇聚了多元的知识、技能和视角，若成员不愿分享，这些优势便无从发挥。

Psychological safety, as you were saying, it's so important because even if we get this diverse mix of knowledge, skills, and perspectives onto our team, we still aren't gonna take advantage of it unless people are comfortable sharing it.

他们能自在地提出不同想法。

They're comfortable speaking up with different ideas.

他们能自在地提出问题。

They're comfortable asking questions.

他们能坦然承认错误，勇于尝试实验并接受失败。

They're comfortable admitting mistakes and trying experiments and failing.

我们建立这种心理安全感的方式是：首先主动要求，申明工作需大家贡献各自不同的知识、技能和观点。

And the way that we build that psychological safety is that first we ask for it, that we say the work that we're gonna be doing is gonna require us to share our different knowledge, skills, and perspectives.

这需要我们承担风险，因为总会有需要学习的新事物。

It's gonna require us to take risks that we're gonna have some things to learn.

这永远成立，因为任何新团队至少都需要摸索协作之道。

And that's always true because any new team has to figure out how to work together at a minimum.

他们必须掌握沟通方式，并通过不断学习和实验来实现目标。

They've gotta figure out how to communicate, and they're going to need to do some of this learning and some of this experimentation to make it happen.

另一种建立心理安全感的方法是亲身示范。

Another way that you can build this kind of psychological safety is to model it.

尤其作为领导者，你要主动承认错误，提出可能显得愚蠢的问题，进行实验并表态：

So especially if you're a leader, for you to admit your own mistakes, for you to ask questions that you might worry or dumb questions, for you to do experiments and say, hey.

我也在学习。

I'm learning too.

这就是我要尝试的方向。

This is what I'm gonna try.

我们看看情况如何。

Let's see how it goes.

并示范这类行为。

And to model those kinds of behaviors.

当然，最重要的是不迁怒于传达者，当人们表达意见时，要让他们能自由分享想法。

And then, of course, to not shoot the messenger and not to when people do speak up, they do share their ideas.

他们会提出心中的疑问，你要用积极强化来鼓励这种行为。

They do ask questions that are on their mind that you reinforce that with positive reinforcement.

你要鼓励它。

You encourage it.

不要因为人们做这些事而批评他们。

You don't criticize people for doing those things.

关键在于为这种不同观点的分享设定预期——错误是可以接受的，实际上团队成功需要这些尝试。

So it's about setting expectations for this sharing of different viewpoints that mistakes are acceptable and actually needed for the group to be successful.

作为领导者或具有领导角色的人，要通过自身行动来示范这一点，以身作则。

And as a leader or somebody who has a leadership role, demonstrating this in your own actions, role modeling.

我认为这些都是帮助人们理解其重要性并强化这些价值观的好方法。

I think those are great ways to help people understand that this is important and reinforce these values.

在团队组建时，有没有哪些具体做法能真正为我们奠定成功之路？

Are there certain things we can do when a group forms that really help set us on a path of success?

要知道，这种组建有时发生得非常迅速。

You know, this notion of forming sometimes happens very quickly.

遇到危机时，我们必须迅速集结人员。

There's a crisis and we have to pull people together.

有时则更为深思熟虑。

Other times it's more thoughtful.

能否给出两三个团队组建的最佳实践，真正为团队奠定良好基础？

Can you give two or three best practices for group formation that can really set you on a good path?

因此，团队组建阶段在团队生命周期中至关重要

So group formation is such an important time in a group's life

我们初次聚在一起时做的事情往往具有持久影响

that the stuff that we do when we first get together tends to be really sticky.

我们都能想象第一次与新同事或新同学见面的场景 - 人们总是固定坐在相同位置，谁先发言，谁说得最多

We all can imagine the first time we meet with a new group at work or a new class at school, people tend to sit in the same place the whole time where we sit, who talks first, who talks the most.

这类行为规范形成得非常早

These kinds of norms form really early.

因此我们需要格外谨慎地管理这个过程

And so we wanna manage that really carefully.

关于团队组建，部分准备工作应该在我们进入会议室前就完成

Now with group formation, some of the work should happen before we ever get in the room.

包括思考任务目标、合理组建团队、确定团队规模、确保知识技能和观点的多样性，这些都应提前规划

The work of thinking about the task, thinking about composing that group well, the group size, the diversity of knowledge, skills, perspectives, all those things should be done ahead of time.

而当我们正式启动团队时，有三项重要任务

But then once we're, what I would call, launching the group, there's three big tasks.

第一是让目标生动呈现，并确保所有人理解一致

One is we need to bring that goal to life and make sure we all understand it similarly.

我们需要对目标进行清晰生动的传达

So we need to have a very clear and vivid communication of that goal.

就像经典商学院案例中，约翰·肯尼迪总统重新定位NASA的目标

So the kind of classic business school examples of these are, like, when John F.

原本NASA目标模糊，直到肯尼迪提出'十年内将人类送上月球'的明确任务

Kennedy repurposed NASA, which had a very ambiguous goal prior to his charge for them to put a man on the moon within ten years.

这个清晰生动的目标让每个人都能具体想象

So that was a very clear vivid goal that everyone can imagine.

即使我们不清楚第一步该做什么或明天要做什么，但只要能共同生动想象那个必须抵达的未来，就能让人们保持协调一致，同步努力

So even if we don't have a clear idea of what we need to do first or what we need to do tomorrow, the fact that we can all imagine the future vividly that we need to get to collectively collectively, allow allowed people people to to stay stay coordinated coordinated and to synchronize their efforts.

因此我们需要这类清晰生动的目标来凝聚大家。

So we need these kinds of clear vivid goals to to get us together.

其次，我们需要建立这些初始规范。

And then second, we need to establish these initial norms.

鉴于规范具有粘性且形成迅速，我们可以利用这点优势，通过实施一些我们在建立心理安全感时讨论过的措施。

So the fact that norms are sticky and they form really fast, we can use that to our advantage by doing some of the things we talked about when we're establishing psychological safety.

比如：我希望打造一个团队，大家能共享所知，有想法就直言不讳——我们该如何实现？

To say, I wanna have a team where we all share what we know, where we speak up when we have an idea, and how can we do that?

我们可以就此展开讨论。

And we can have that conversation.

但我认为最重要的是那些贴近你内心的沟通规范。

But the most important things I think are close to your heart are norms about communication.

我们彼此之间该如何沟通？

How are we gonna communicate with one another?

其中有些非常基础的事项，比如我们究竟要使用哪些沟通渠道？

And that some of these are really basic things like what communication channels are we even gonna use?

我见过太多团队出现这种情况：部分人通过某个渠道交流，而另一些人却不用那个渠道，甚至根本不知道。

I can't tell you how many teams I've seen where some people are communicating through one channel and a few people don't use that channel, don't know.

比如有些人没注册Slack。

So some people aren't signed up for Slack.

他们收不到通知。

They don't get notifications.

不知道群里在讨论什么。

They don't know what's being said there.

所以首先要明确最基本的：我们在哪里沟通？

So some of it's really basic about where are we gonna communicate.

此外还需要制定规范，比如彼此之间的响应速度要多快。

But then we also need norms for how quickly are we responding to each other.

你认为我什么时候会没看到这封邮件？

That when do I think you haven't seen this email?

是一天、两天，还是一周？

Is it one day, two days, a week?

你知道吗？

You know?

不同的团队可以有不同的规范。

And the different teams can have different norms.

但只要我们明确，就能有效沟通。

But as long as we're clear, we can communicate effectively.

然后我们需要明确各自的责任，以及从现在到下次谈话期间要完成的工作。

And then we need to have understanding of the individual responsibilities and work that we're gonna have between now and the next time we talk.

这可能是角色分工的开端。

And this could be the beginnings of roles.

可以是正式的角色分配，但必须明确我在下次集体问责前需要完成的任务。

They could be really formal roles, but that needs to be clear what I need to do between now and the next time we're gonna be collectively accountable to one another.

如果我们做到这三点：设定清晰生动的目标，建立规范（特别是关于沟通方式和心理安全的规范），明确责任分工及截止时间，

So if we do those three things, that we have clear vivid goals, we have norms, especially norms for how we're gonna communicate and that they're promoting psychological safety, and we know what our responsibilities are and we know the deadline by which those responsibilities to the group are set,

那我们的启动就相当成功了。

then we had a pretty darn good launch.

让成员共同追求的生动目标，关于互动内容和方式的规范预期，以及后续行动的责任分工。

Vivid goals that people are aligned towards, norms, which are simply just expectations for what and how we will interact, and responsibilities for the actions that we'll follow-up with.

非常重要。

Very important.

你提到的关键点是必须提前做好准备工作。

And the key thing you said there is that work has to happen in advance.

在召集大家之前，我们必须先考虑好这些事项。

We have to think about these things before we pull people together.

事实上，思考这些问题可能决定了我们会召集哪些人以及召集多少人。

And in fact, thinking about these things might determine who we pull together and how many.

现在我想转换话题，谈谈我们进行团队工作的方式，主要是会议。

I want to switch now and talk about the way in which we do group work, which is primarily meetings.

大多数人都不喜欢开会。

And most people don't like meetings.

你对如何让会议中的集体时间更有效率有什么建议？

What is your advice on how to make the group time in meetings more effective?

我们可以做些什么来让会议更高效？

What are things we can do to have better meetings?

这是个很好的问题，也是个很常见的问题。

So that's a great question, and it's such a common one.

有时我在自己组织里也会问同样的问题。

Sometimes I ask myself the same thing in my organization.

首要建议不是问'我能做什么来让会议更好'，而是问'我们真的需要开这个会吗？'

The number one tip is to not ask what can I do to have a better meeting, but to ask, should we have this meeting in the first place?

正如我们所说，惯例具有顽固性。

As we said, norms are really sticky.

如果我们开始形成'会议会很无聊'的惯例，人们会心不在焉、不愿发言、不愿分享所知，这种惯例很可能会持续下去——即使我们从不必要的单向信息传达会议开始。

And so if we start having this norm that we're gonna have boring meetings, that people are gonna be disengaged and not speak in these meetings, not contribute what they know, that norm's likely to stick even if we go from a meeting that really wasn't necessary and that was one way communication, information sharing.

下次当我们真正需要人们发言的会议时，他们就更不愿意开口了。

And the next time we have a meeting where we do need people to speak up, they're less likely to do it.

因此，取消不必要的会议还有个额外好处：你会开始培养更好的惯例，让人们在真正需要他们贡献的会议中积极参与。

So eliminating those meetings that we didn't need has the added benefits of you're gonna start to develop better norms for how people contribute in the meetings where you really need their contribution.

所以第一步是取消不必要的会议，这会让你保留的会议质量大幅提升。

So step one, eliminate unnecessary meetings, and that will make the meetings you do have much better.

但第二步可能是你邀请了太多人参加这些会议。

But then step two is likely you are inviting too many people to these meetings.

正如我们所说，当我们想要真正完成工作时，我们需要每个人的贡献。

So just like we said, when we wanna get real work done, we wanna have everyone's contributions.

我们想知道他们的想法。

We wanna know what they think.

我们需要让他们参与决策并良好沟通。

We wanna have them participate in decision making and communicate well.

我们确实需要这样一个由三到七人组成的核心小组围坐在桌边。

We really need to have this kind of core group of three to seven people around the table.

一旦人数达到十人，如果会议时长一小时，特别是在大学环境里都是像我们这样的学者，那么每个人都能充分表达自己想法的可能性就非常低了。

Once we've even got a group of 10, if I've got an hour long meeting and a group of 10, especially if there are 10 academics like us or it's in the university situation, the chances that we're gonna get through that and everyone's going to say everything that they have to say is really low.

如果超过十人，比如十五、二十甚至二十五人，那几乎不可能实现。

And if we're over 10, if we're 15, we're 20, we're 25, it's almost none.

这样的会议几乎不可能有效进行。

There's almost no way we're gonna have that meeting.

因此，如果我们能召开目标明确的会议——要么是为了做决策，要么是为了激发新想法。

So if we can have meetings that have very concrete outcomes, that we're there to make a decision, We're there to generate new ideas.

要么是为了制定新策略。

We're there to develop a new strategy.

会议必须存在明确目的。

That there's some reason that we're meeting.

所有成员都清楚这一点，然后我们只邀请那些真正能为该目标做出贡献的人。

It's clear to all members, and then we invite people who have something really to contribute towards that goal.

这样我们才更可能召开高效会议。

We're likely to have better meetings.

单向传达的信息——如果通过邮件就能解决，或者你更愿意用视频留言或语音留言给团队，那就采用那些方式。

One way communication, if it could have been an email or if you prefer, it could have been a video message or an audio message to the team, then do that.

不要为此专门开会。

Don't have a meeting.

但当你们确实需要开会时，会议应有明确的目的和议程，并且只邀请必要的人员参加。

But that when you do have meetings, they have clear purposes, they have agendas, and only the people who need to be there are invited to those meetings.

这对提升会议效率大有裨益。

That's gonna go a long way towards improving your meetings.

阿门。

Amen.

我们需要开会吗？

Do we need a meeting?

是否有其他沟通方式？

Are there other ways to communicate?

首要问题至关重要。

Super important first question.

那我们开会是为了什么？

Then what are we meeting for?

目的是什么？

What's the purpose?

我们有明确的议程吗？

Do we have a clear agenda?

大家都清楚议程内容吗？

Does everybody understand it?

非常好。

Excellent.

最后，如果会议非必要，要勇于取消或干脆不开——这点非常重要。

And then finally, being willing to cancel a meeting or not hold a meeting if not necessary, really important.

感谢分享这些观点。

Thank you for sharing that.

愿大家都能践行这些原则，让会议真正发挥其应有的作用：成为高效完成工作并增进联结的契机。

And may everybody adopt that and may meetings be what they truly can be, which is really productive opportunities to accomplish work and to feel connected.

非常感谢。

So thank you.

我们稍后会回来继续我们的对话。

We'll be right back to finish our conversation.

但首先，我们将短暂休息一下，插播一条赞助商信息。

But first, we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

这些赞助支持了我们节目的制作成本，使我们能够免费为您呈现。

These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring it to you free of charge.

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

我努力磨练技能，不断提升作为沟通者和教师的能力。

I work hard to sharpen my skills and keep improving as a communicator and teacher.

这就是为什么我喜欢从大师课中学习。

That's why I love learning from MasterClass.

我能直接向塑造各自行业的专家和领袖学习。

I get to learn directly from experts and leaders shaping their industries.

在为我的新书《即兴演讲》做研究时，我从演员兼播客主艾米·波勒关于'为不可预测做准备'的大师课中学到了很多。

As I was doing research for my latest book on spontaneous speaking, I learned a lot from actress and podcaster Amy Poehler's masterclass on preparing to be unprepared.

每年仅需10美元起，您就能无限访问200多门课程，全部由世界顶尖商业领袖、作家、厨师和创新者授课。

For as little as $10 a billed annually, you get unlimited access to more than 200 classes, all taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, innovators.

每节课都简短实用，真正鼓舞人心。

Each lesson is short, practical, and genuinely motivating.

非常适合热爱学习但时间有限的人。

Perfect for anyone who loves learning, but doesn't have a lot of time.

此外，每个新会员都享有30天退款保证，绝无风险。

Plus every new membership comes with a thirty day money back guarantee, so there's no risk.

大师课不是额外学分，而是您的竞争优势。

Masterclass isn't extra credit, it's your edge.

那么，何不看看今天你能学到些什么呢？

So why not see what you can learn today?

现在行动，思维敏捷的听众在masterclass.com/thinkfast注册年度会员可享85折优惠。

Right now, think fast, talk smart listeners get 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/thinkfast.

网址是masterclass.com/thinkfast。

That's masterclass.com/thinkfast.

向最优秀的人学习，成就最好的自己。

Learn from the best to become your best.

大家好，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

畅销书作家迈克尔·刘易斯的《大空头》讲述了2008年美国房地产市场从繁荣到崩盘的故事。

The Big Short by bestselling author Michael Lewis tells the story of the buildup and burst of The US housing market back in 2008.

十年前，这个故事被改编成一部获得奥斯卡奖的电影。

A decade ago, the story was made into an Academy Award winning movie.

现在，迈克尔·刘易斯首次亲自献声，将其改编为全新有声书。

Now, Michael Lewis is bringing it to life in a new audiobook narrated by the author himself for the first time.

《大空头》的故事——做空市场的含义以及失控金融体系真正代价的揭示——其现实意义至今未减。

The Big Short story, what it means to bet against the market and who really pays for an unchecked financial system is as relevant today as it has ever been.

立即在pushkin.fm/audiobooks或各大有声书平台获取《大空头》。

Get The Big Short now at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.

科林，这次对话非常精彩。

Colin, this has been a fantastic conversation.

结束前，我想向每位嘉宾提三个问题。

Before we end, I like to ask three questions of my guests.

其中一个是为你量身定制的，另外两个问题和我采访过的其他人都类似。

One I create just for you, and the other two are similar across everybody I've interviewed.

你准备好了吗？

Are you up for that?

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

所以呢，

So there's

你身上有很多特质让我觉得非常有趣。

so many things about you that are really interesting to me.

其中之一就是你是一名职业爵士小号手。

One is you're a professional jazz trumpeter.

我年轻时曾尝试学习小号，但惨遭失败。

I tried to play the trumpet early in my life and failed miserably.

所以我对你能以此为业充满敬佩。

So I'm in awe of your ability to do it professionally.

作为职业爵士小号手，你学到哪些有助于团队人际交往的经验？

What is one thing that you've learned as a professional jazz trumpeter that has helped you in terms of how you interact with people in groups?

所有音乐形式的精髓其实都在于倾听。

The essence of all kinds of music really is listening.

我曾有位非常著名的老师。

I had a really famous teacher.

他叫鲍勃·布鲁克迈尔，他说即兴演奏时要一只耳朵听自己，另一只耳朵要放在钢琴上。

His name was Bob Brookmeyer who said when you're improvising, you have to keep one ear on your head, and you have to take the other ear and put it over on the piano.

统观整个互动过程。

Oversee the whole interaction.

因此我认为这让我学会了用不同方式倾听。

And so I think it's made me listen in different ways.

这让我更能接纳发言者所说的内容，也能感知整个交流群体的和声效果，真正让我体会到倾听的重要性。

It's made me more open to both what somebody who's speaking is saying and the whole ensemble of the group of the communication, and just to really attune me to the importance of listening.

研究沟通学的人总会回归到倾听这个主题，这总是让我感到惊奇。

It always amazes me that people who study and teach communication come back to listening.

这对我们所有人来说都是重要的一课。

And it's an important lesson for all of us.

我们常把沟通视为单向传播，重在输出信息，但接收信息同样至关重要。

We think of communication as broadcasting, getting information out, but receiving it is really important.

感谢你的分享。

Thank you for sharing that.

第二个问题，谁是

Question number two, who is

你钦佩的沟通者？为什么？

a communicator that you admire and why?

我必须再次感谢我的导师理查德·哈克曼，这本书的很多内容都归功于他，他将复杂的群体世界梳理得井然有序。

I have to continue to give credit to my mentor, Richard Hackman, who I owe so much of the book to as well, who took this complicated world of groups and really started to give order to it.

作为沟通者，我最敬佩他总能找到精准的术语。

I think what I respect about him as a communicator was finding terms that were really accurate.

他著名的理论是工作设计理论。

His famous theory is work design.

对吧？

Right?

而且这并非晦涩的学术术语堆砌。

And and that's not like a fancy academic set of terms.

我在书里调侃过'群体实体'这种术语——就像我们总爱发明些拗口的专业名词。

I make fun of the term group entity in the book where it's like we come up with these, like, mouthfuls of things that are really hard to say.

但直接称之为'工作设计理论'就是个绝佳的沟通范例，不仅让学术界清晰理解，更让所有人明白我们当时忽视的重点：任务本身及工作架构的思考方式。

But just calling it work design theory already was such a powerful communication move to not only be clear within the academic community, but also to be clear to everyone else about what it is we should be paying attention to that we weren't paying attention to at the time, which was the tasks and the way that we were thinking about structuring the work that we do.

因此我认为他是我见过最出色的沟通者之一。

So I think he would be one of the best communicators that I've encountered.

感谢你的分享，也感谢你强化了清晰、简洁、易懂这些核心理念的重要性。

Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for reinforcing the idea of clarity, concision, accessibility are really important.

最后一个问题，Colin。

Final question for you, Colin.

成功沟通的三大关键要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

所以我要再次强调倾听。

So I'm gonna say listening again.

当我最初研究团队时，我以为会看到那些擅长诊断群体动态的专家，他们走进房间观察团队后就能立即指出问题所在。

When I first started studying teams, I thought I was gonna see these people who were these expert diagnosers of group dynamics, that they were gonna walk into a room and they'd look at a team and go, oh, I know what's wrong with you.

但当我开始研究那些优秀的团队教练时，发现他们做得更多的是提问。

But instead, when I started studying these great coaches of teams, what they did was they asked more questions.

他们会问：你最近怎么样？

They said, oh, how are you doing?

所以他们并非神奇地诊断他人。

So they didn't magically diagnose people.

而是通过询问了解情况。

They asked them what was going on.

你要学会提问。

You ask questions.

倾听对方的回答后，你的回应既要体现对其意图、福祉和情感表达的关切，又要在此基础上延伸拓展。

You listen to the answer, and then you respond in ways that both show you're concerned with that person's intent and well-being and emotional message that they had, but then you build on it.

这就像戏剧即兴创作中的'肯定式延伸'理念——先认可对方的观点，再为其增添新内容。

And it's this kind of idea we find in theater improvisation of yes, ending that you say, yeah, I see what you're saying, and now I'm gonna add something onto it.

因此我认为，提出好问题、认真倾听、做出回应并深化对话，就能实现优质沟通。

So I think if we ask good questions, we listen to the answer, and then we both respond and build on those responses, we're gonna have some great communication.

非常精彩的三大要素。

Excellent three ingredients.

我深表认同。

I echo that very much.

我认为这些都非常重要。

I think those are really important.

提出问题。

Ask questions.

真诚倾听回答。

Listen genuinely to the answers.

我们已经制作了很多关于即兴发挥价值的节目，探讨如何回应并丰富他人所说内容。

And we've done a lot of episodes on the value of improv and this notion of responding and adding to what people say.

科林，非常感谢你为我们揭示这种全天候都在进行的沟通方式的深层见解。

Colin, thank you so much for bringing insight into a type of communication that we all do all day.

我们身处各种不同群体中，学会更有效地建立群体、优化群体运作，最终提升工作效率，这对我们所有人都大有裨益。

We are parts of many different groups, learning to be more effective in how we establish groups, how we make groups work better, and ultimately how we feel more productive really can be helpful for all of us.

感谢您的时间。

Thank you for your time.

非常感谢邀请我参加，

Thanks so much for having me,

播客。

podcast.

想了解更多关于成功组建群体的方法，请收听第174期与普里亚·帕克的对话。

To learn more about setting groups up for success, please listen to episode one seventy four with Priya Parker.

要提升会议效率，可以收听第124期和第125期与乔·艾伦、凯伦·里德和艾莉丝·基思的节目。

And to improve your meetings, check out both episodes one twenty four and one twenty five with Joe Allen, Karen Reid, and Elise Keith.

本期节目由凯瑟琳·里德、瑞安·坎波斯和我马特·亚伯拉罕斯共同制作。

This episode was produced by Katherine Reid, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

背景音乐来自Floyd Wonder，特别鸣谢Podium播客公司。

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

欢迎在YouTube及各大播客平台订阅我们。

Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

记得订阅并给我们评分。

Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

同时，在LinkedIn和Instagram上关注我们，访问fastersmarter.i0获取深度视频、英语学习内容和我们的新闻通讯。

Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out fastersmarter.i0 for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

请考虑我们的高级会员服务，包括加长版DeepThinks节目、Ask Matt Anythings等更多内容，详情请访问fastersmarter.i0/premium。

Please consider our premium offering before extended DeepThinks episodes, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.i0/premium.

嗨。

Hi.

我是Matt。

Matt here.

很高兴告诉大家我们的十月通讯现已发布，内容涵盖五种常见的沟通错误及最重要的纠正方法。

I'm excited to share that our October newsletter is now available to learn about five common communication mistakes people make and most importantly, how to fix them.

此外还能了解如何参与我们正在开发的一个激动人心的项目，它将改变你的沟通技巧和职业生涯。

Plus hear about ways to get involved in something exciting that we're working on to transform your communication skills and career.

在LinkedIn上的Think Fast, Talk Smart或FasterSmarter的资源页面下查找我们的新闻通讯。

Find our newsletter at Think Fast, Talk Smart on LinkedIn or under resources at FasterSmarter.