248. 携手共进：如何大幅提升团队生产力

嗨，我是Matt。

Hi, Matt here.

在我们开始之前，

Before we get started,

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I wanted to remind you about our new Think Fast Talk Smart learning community, where listeners from around the world can come together to practice and transform their communication and careers.

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If you sign up before January 2, you will get one month free.

随着节日临近，您还可以将'提升沟通能力'作为礼物赠予他人。

And with the holidays coming, you can give the gift of better communication.

尽快加入，即可参与12月16日'向Matt提问'的AMA活动。

Join soon so you can be part of our AMA, Ask Matt Anything, on December 16.

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Go to fastersmarter.iolearning to join.

现在请听我们赞助商的一条消息。

Now here's a message from one of our sponsors.

在《快思慢讲》这里，我们行动迅速。

Here at Think Fast, Talk Smart, we move fast.

从撰写面试问题到精心设计邮件、提案和演示文稿。

From writing interview questions to crafting emails, proposals, and presentation notes.

但在不同工具间切换处理这些内容，确实会拖慢你的速度。

But juggling all those pieces across different tools, that can really slow you down.

切换标签页、在应用间复制粘贴、试图记住最后编辑的位置，这些既耗时又有点令人沮丧。

Switching tabs, copying and pasting between apps, trying to remember where the last edit lives, it's time consuming and, quite honestly, a little frustrating.

这就是我使用Grammarly的原因。

That's why I use Grammarly.

它专为需要在一个地方完成从空白页面到完美终稿的专业人士量身定制。

It's tailor made for professionals who need to take a project from blank page to polished finish all in one place.

AI技术无处不在，何不将其转化为你的优势？

And AI isn't going anywhere, so why not use it to your advantage?

Grammarly的实时建议、语气反馈和AI聊天功能帮助我更快地头脑风暴和微调内容。

Grammarly's real time suggestions, tone feedback, and AI chat help me brainstorm and fine tune faster.

让你的创意源源不断，专注于真正重要的东西——你的核心信息。

So keep your ideas flowing and stay focused on what really matters, your message.

立即免费注册，体验Grammarly如何从始至终提升你的专业写作水平。

Sign up for free and experience how Grammarly can elevate your professional writing from start to finish.

访问grammarly.com/podcast。

Visit grammarly.com/podcast.

网址是grammarly.com/podcast。

That's grammarly.com/podcast.

协作是团队合作的关键。

Collaboration is critical to teaming.

但如何协作才能既高效又轻松？

But how do we do it so that we feel effective and unburdened?

我是马特·亚伯拉罕斯，在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略传播课程。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，智慧表达》播客节目。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天，我期待与莫莉·桑兹展开对话。

Today, I look forward to chatting with Molly Sands.

莫莉是行为科学家，也是Atlassian公司团队协作实验室的负责人。

Molly is a behavioral scientist and the head of the Teamwork Lab at Atlassian.

她和团队致力于研究高绩效团队的最佳实践。

She and her team conduct research into best practices for high performing teams.

她的工作重点是探索团队如何在分布式和混合办公环境中更高效地协作，尤其是在AI时代。

Her work focuses on understanding how teams can collaborate more effectively in a distributed and hybrid work environment, especially in the world of AI.

欢迎你，莫莉。

Welcome, Molly.

我一直很钦佩你们团队的工作成果，非常期待能就你们的研究展开对话。

I have long admired the work of your team, and I'm really excited to have a conversation about the work you do.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

很高兴能来到这里。

I'm excited to be here.

好的，我们开始吧？

Okay, shall we get started?

我们开始吧。

Let's do it.

太棒了。

Awesome.

团队合作实验室研究团队协作和生产力的诸多方面。

So the Teamwork Lab studies many aspects of teaming and productivity.

你们如何确定研究方向？是否有指导原则？

How do you determine what to study, and do you have some guiding principles for the work that you do?

我们的工作主要聚焦于几个关键点。

I am really focused on a few things in our work.

我们对团队合作有几个核心信念。

We have a couple of key beliefs about teamwork.

其一是当人们良好协作时，他们能共同完成更多事情。

And one is that people can accomplish a lot more together when they work well together.

另一个是当今大多数公司中，协作过程实在太困难了。

And the other is that in most companies today, it is way too hard to work together.

我们越能就共同目标和实现路径达成共识，效率就会越高。

And the more that we can get on the same page about what we're trying to achieve together and how we're going to get there, the more effective we are.

这些基本就是我关于团队如何高效协作的指导理念。

Those are sort of my guiding philosophies around how do teams work effectively together.

我们的研究主要聚焦于几个领域。

And we anchor our research in a couple areas.

首先，我的团队——Atlassian的团队合作实验室——研究全球各地的团队。

So one, my team, the teamwork lab at Atlassian, we study teams across the world.

因此我们会调研数千个团队。

So we will survey thousands of teams.

我们会与领导者们交流。

We'll talk to leaders.

我们会开展多种不同类型的研究。

We'll do lots of different types of research.

同时我们也会研究公司内部的团队。

And then we also study teams within the company.

在Atlassian内部，我们能够深入团队之中，改变他们的工作方式，并测量多种不同类型的结果。

And within Atlassian, we're really able to get in the mix with teams and change how they work and measure lots of different types of outcomes.

通过这两种方法，我们能够很好地了解当今大多数人面临的挑战，以及我们所有客户真正关心并需要我们提供更好解决方案的问题。

And so from those two approaches, we get a really good sense of what are the challenges that most people are facing today and that all of our customers really care about and need us to come up with better solutions for.

此外我们还拥有这个惊人的实验池。

And then we also have this amazing experimental pool.

因此我们可以真正开始改变工作方式，然后观察这会对结果产生什么影响。

And so we can start to really change ways of working and then see how that impacts outcomes.

在你们所做的研究中，至少试图识别出最大的挑战是什么，有没有两三个特别突出的方面是团队真正难以应对的？

In that research that you do, at least trying to identify what the big challenge is, are there two or three that stand out in terms of what really teams struggle with?

是的。

Yeah.

目标设定。

So goals.

真正重要的是团队和当今企业员工如何分配时间。

What actually matters is huge for teams and how people invest their time in companies today.

因此我们投入大量时间研究和思考：如何明确我们要达成的目标，以及如何将时间投入到真正有意义、能推动实际工作而非空谈。

And so we'd spend a lot of time studying and thinking about how do we get clear on what we're trying to do, and how do we invest our times in ways that are actually meaningful and help us do real work and not just talk about work.

您对如何帮助人们明确目标有什么建议吗？

Do you have suggestions for how people can help identify their goals?

另外我知道你们花了很多时间研究目标对齐问题，让人们与这些目标保持一致。

And then I know something you spend a lot of time on is alignment, getting people aligned to those goals.

因为我曾在多个组织中，原以为我们在朝一个方向努力，结果发现其他人认为我们在朝另一个方向。

Because I've been in several organizations where I thought we were working in one direction, it turns out others thought we were working in another.

那么我们该如何确定这些目标？又该如何实现目标对齐？

So how do we determine what those goals are, and how do we get alignment towards them?

我认为很多最佳工作成果都始于先问为什么，对吧？

So I think a lot of the best work happens when you start by asking why, right?

你要真正专注于：我们是谁？我们期望的真实结果应该是什么样子？

And you are really focused on what are we, what do we want the true outcome to look like?

如今在很多公司和团队里，人们容易把活动与结果混为一谈，对吧？

And in a lot of companies and a lot of teams today, people get activities confused with outcomes, right?

重点不在于我们要解决什么商业问题或客户问题，而在于我们采取哪些活动来实现目标。

It's less about what is the business problem we're solving, what is the customer problem we're solving, and more about what activities are we doing to get there.

因此，真正厘清问题所在，才是制定优秀战略的第一步。

And so getting really clear about the problems is really the first step to having a great strategy.

然后更明确地规划实现路径，收集意见，让人们真正理解为什么这是个问题、为什么要解决它，以及我们凭什么能独特地解决这个问题。

And then being more explicit about how are we going to get there and getting that input, getting people to really understand why is this a problem, why do we want to solve it, and how are we uniquely positioned to do that.

所有这些产品思维——我正是这样思考的——往往能帮助团队达成更好的共识。

All of that product thinking is really how I think about it, tends to help teams get much better aligned.

然后就是要明确。

And then being explicit.

对吧？

Right?

就像你刚才提到的，很多时候我们以为大家想法一致，但我从未明确说出来。

There's so many moments you just referenced times of thinking, well, thought we were all on the same page, but I never said it out loud.

而你的同事和队友并不会读心术。

And your colleagues and your teammates are not mind readers.

所以越是能共同梳理清楚这些，我们的团队效率往往就越高。

So the more that we can really map this out together, the more effective our teams tend to be.

我认为花时间真正反思什么是重要的，我们要解决什么问题，为什么要做这件事，然后通过记录和沟通使其明确化，这些都非常关键。

I think taking the time to really reflect on what is important here, what's the problem we're solving, why are we doing this, and then making it explicit by documenting it and communicating it are really important.

在我的实践中以及进入不同组织时，我发现让人们分享目标是什么，并让每个人都给出自己的理解版本很有意义。

And I have found in the practice that I do and when I go into organizations, having people just share what is the goal and have everybody give their version of it.

人们常常惊讶地发现彼此之间其实并不一致。

People are often very surprised that they weren't aligned.

所以不仅要明确提供目标，还要确保人们分享各自的理解，这也会非常有帮助。

So explicitly not just providing it, but making sure people share their take on it can be really helpful too.

是的。

Yeah.

我经常告诉管理者或项目负责人，首要任务之一就是让每个人说出他们认为你们想要实现的目标。

I always tell managers or anyone that's leading a project, one of the first things you should do is ask everyone to tell you what they think you're trying to accomplish.

我发现一个很有力量的问题，想听听你的看法，就是问人们‘成功的标准是什么？’

And a powerful question I found, I'd be curious to get your input on it, is asking people what does success look like?

这个团队的成功标准是什么？

What does success of this team look like?

没错。

Yeah.

实际上，我们平台上的每个项目启动时都会这样做。

We actually start every project we do in our platform.

我们有专门的记录方式让团队成员记录这些内容。

We have a way that people can document this.

但我们在做什么呢？

But what are we doing?

我们为什么要做这件事？

Why are we doing it?

成功是什么样子的？

And what does success look like?

仅仅通过提出这三个问题，并撰写一份让项目所有参与者阅读、思考并反馈的文档，就能极大地加速后续所有工作的推进。

And just by asking those three questions and writing something up that everyone working on that project reads and thinks about and gives feedback on, that is such a fast way to actually accelerate everything that happens from that point on.

是的。

Yeah.

我们在做什么？

What are we doing?

为什么这件事很重要？

Why is it important?

成功是什么样子的？

And what does success look like?

这些都是非常关键的问题。

Really important questions.

我认为另一个重要问题——虽然这肯定不会让你感到意外——是我很想探讨AI及其角色。

I think another important question, and I'm sure this won't surprise you, is I'd love to talk about AI and AI's role.

它不仅正在影响整个工作领域，也在改变团队协作方式。

It's certainly affecting work period, but also in teams.

你们的研究显示人们正将AI视为协作伙伴的趋势。

Your research shows a shift towards using AI as a collaborator.

能否帮我们具体描述这种协作模式是怎样的？

Can you help us understand what that looks like?

对于如何利用AI帮助团队取得更大成功，你有什么具体建议？

What recommendations do you have to leverage AI to help teams be more successful?

在AI开始深刻改变工作方式之初，我们就发现人们对它的认知态度会产生巨大影响。

One of the things we saw earliest as AI was really taking hold of how we do work was that people's mindset around it mattered in a huge way.

当你真正把AI视为协作伙伴而非工具，像对待能推动思维进步的队友那样与之互动交流时——

And so if you really think of AI as a collaborator, rather than just a doer, but you're actually thinking about AI more like a teammate and someone that can push your thinking forward and that you can go back and forth with.

这类使用者往往能获得更好的成果。

Those are the people that are seeing much better outcomes.

这体现在很多方面。

And that's across a lot of things.

因此他们在工作中获得了更高的效率。

So they're seeing more efficiency in the work they're doing.

他们能够更快完成任务。

They're able to do tasks faster.

但这些人的工作质量也更高。

But those folks are also seeing better quality work.

他们的团队认为他们更具创新性。

And their teams are viewing them as more innovative.

我们所有人都对AI的潜力感到兴奋，对于那些以协作思维而非简单视AI为工具的人来说，这些潜力正在真正实现。

And some of the promise of AI that we're all excited about is really coming true for the people that start to think about AI in that collaborative mindset rather than simply as, oh, well, I can delegate and automate a few things.

能否举例说明真正的AI协作是什么样子的？

Can you give us a few examples of what true collaboration with AI might look like?

AI是否拥有决策席位？

Does it have a seat at the table?

它是否和我一起参加Zoom会议？

Is it in the Zoom meeting with me?

我是否像询问同事一样向它提问？

Am I asking it questions like a colleague?

那会是什么样子？

What does that look like?

我认为将AI视为快速获取所需信息的方式很棒。

So I think it is great to think of AI as a quick way to get some information that you need.

但这也关乎那种来回互动的过程。

But it's also about that back and forth interaction.

实际上是共同创造内容，而不仅仅是接受首次输出，而是真正进行来回讨论、提问，让AI推动你的思考，同时也要敢于反驳。

So actually creating things and not just taking the first output that you get, but actually going back and forth, debating, asking questions, having AI push your thinking, and pushing back too.

比如可以说：我认为这个不对。

Saying, I don't think this is right.

我知道其他相关情况。

I know about this other thing.

我们该如何融入这一点？

How do we incorporate this?

就像你与他人协作时那样，需要来回交流。

And much in the way you would go about collaborating with other people where it is a back and forth.

我们曾与Jeremy Utley做过一期很有见地的节目，讨论了将AI视为对话伙伴而不仅仅是搜索引擎，如何真正改变互动动态。

We had a really insightful episode we did with Jeremy Utley where we talked about how treating AI as a conversation partner, not just as a search engine, really can change the dynamic.

听起来你提倡的正是这种理念——真正投入对话、与它交流并挑战它，这样你就能从中获益。

It sounds like that's what you're advocating for, is really engage in dialogue, talk to it, and challenge it, and it will help you benefit.

能否举例说明你们如何利用AI作为工具？比如Atlassian是否开发过基于AI的入职工具来帮助新人快速上手并提高效率？

Can you give us an example of using AI as a tool to help you either read about or listened to an episode of something where Atlassian has built an onboarding tool out of AI to help people get started and be more productive?

是的。

Yeah.

我们在AI伙伴辅助入职方面取得了巨大成功。

We've had great success with onboarding with an AI buddy.

所以我们开发了一个叫Nora的工具，全称是'新拉西安入职机器人助手'。

So we built what we call, her name is Nora, Newlassian onboarding robo agent.

诺拉可以访问我们所有关于政策、人员项目、公司运营方式以及员工系统设置的数据。

And Nora has access to all of the data that we have about policies and people programs and how we run our company, how people get set up in our systems.

当新员工入职时，他们会与其他人有多次接触机会。

And when our new hires join, they have a variety of touch points with other humans.

但我们也会让他们接触诺拉，并告诉他们：'嘿，如果有任何基础的人力资源问题，就问她。'

But we also give them access to Nora and say, Hey, if you have any of those basic HR questions, ask her.

如果你对公司运作有任何疑问，或者不知道该找谁咨询，不知道如何提交工单——所有入职时遇到的琐碎问题。

If you have any questions about how things operate in this company, if you're wondering who to ask about this, if you don't know how to file a ticket, just all of those logistical things that come up as you're joining.

你肯定不想去找你的新经理，带着一份烦人的包含25个后勤问题的清单。

And you don't really want to go to your brand new manager and be like, I have this, like, really annoying list of 25 questions about logistical things.

你希望在这些对话中展现战略思维。

Wanna be showing up as strategic in those conversations.

诺拉就是你解决所有需求的好帮手。

And Nora is your buddy for everything that you need.

人们提问时感觉自在多了。

And people feel a lot more comfortable asking questions.

他们不用担心AI会如何看待这些问题。

They don't worry about how AI is going to perceive those questions.

所以他们真的会问所有想问的事情。

So they really ask everything they want.

我们还发现，这极大地提高了人们在适应新角色时，将AI作为协作工具的使用频率。

And we've also found that this has vastly increased how much people use AI as a collaborator as they onboard into their new role.

所以这是一个帮助他们习惯使用AI作为工作辅助工具的过渡方式。

So it's an on ramp to helping them feel comfortable using AI as a tool to help them with their work.

我喜欢这个设计。

I like that.

是啊。

Yeah.

因此我们观察到这里形成了非常紧密的关联——仅仅是这个初始接触点就确立了这样的预期：这是我们公司的工作方式，也是你获取信息的途径。

And so we've seen a really strong relationship there that just this initial touch point sets that expectation that this is a way that we work in this company and this is how you're going to get information.

我知道自己入职新公司时总会很尴尬，因为记不住培训内容要回头再问，明明想留下好印象，结果大家都觉得我什么都记不住。

I know when I would onboard on companies, would always feel so embarrassed because I couldn't remember something I was taught and I'd have to go back and ask and I feel like I'm trying to set a good impression and now everybody thinks I can't remember anything.

拥有这样的工具会很有帮助。

To have a tool like that would be helpful.

因此，发现细分需求并构建AI工具来协助，不仅能解决具体需求，还能让人们更习惯将AI视为协作伙伴。

So finding niche needs and building AI tools to help, not only help with whatever that need was, but it also helps people feel more comfortable using AI as a collaborator.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为企业需要思考自身知识体系最完善的领域。

And I think it's important for companies to think about where they have really robust knowledge.

当AI能获取正确信息时，它的表现最佳。

So AI works the best when it has access to the right information.

在人力资源领域，政策通常都有详尽记录。

And so in HR, policies tend to be really carefully documented.

确实需要为新员工提供优质资源，包括福利详情、系统管理方式以及团队融入指南。

You actually do need to have good resources for any new employee about what your benefits look like, about how people manage different systems, about how they integrate into Teams.

我们还能轻松利用AI制定个性化的入职培训计划。

We're able to pretty easily create customized onboarding plans using AI as well.

因此当所有这些信息都可用时，你可以轻松在此基础上进行构建。

And so when all that information is available, you can easily build on top of it.

所以我通常鼓励领导者思考：公司内部哪些领域已经拥有优质数据，并将这些视为能带来明确成效的应用场景。

And so I usually encourage leaders to think about where are pockets within your company that you have that great data already there and to think about those as use cases where you can get some clear wins.

是的。

Yeah.

明确、易于试点的成功案例确实能推动势头发展。

Clear, easy pilot wins and really get that momentum going.

我非常认同这一点。

I appreciate that a lot.

正如我们上台前讨论过的，会议对团队协作很有用，但很多人都在为现有会议所困扰。

As you and I talked about before we came on the air, meetings can be really useful for teaming, but many of us struggle with the meetings we have.

我们觉得会议太多了。

We feel like there are too many.

我们感觉被低效会议所拖累。

We feel like we're victimized by poor meetings.

它们榨干了我们的时间。

They zap our time.

我知道你对会议做过研究，实际上在Atlassian，你们有一些非常有趣的做法。

I know you have done research into meetings, and actually at Atlassian, you guys have some really interesting approaches.

我知道你们使用Loom视频进行异步更新。

I know you use Loom videos for asynchronous updates.

你们有一种叫做'页面主导会议'的方式。

You have what are called page led meetings.

你能定义一下这两种方法吗？

Can you define these two approaches?

因为我认为它们非常独特，可能对很多人有帮助。

Because I think they're really unique and could be helpful for many's.

那么在其他方面，你对我们如何更好地开会、何时开会、与谁开会有什么建议？

And then what other advice do you have generally in terms of how we meet better, when we meet better, who we meet with?

我很想具体了解你们都做了些什么，因为我认为这些经验可以惠及很多人，而且我非常欣赏你们的研究发现。

So I'd love to get specific on what you all have done because I think it transfers to many people and I just love generally what your research has found.

会议是人们工作中最大的挑战之一，对吧？

Meetings are one of the biggest challenges in people's jobs, right?

每当我们调研是什么阻碍了人们实现工作目标时，会议总是排在首位。

Any time that we run research about what's holding people back from achieving what they want to at work, meetings are the number one thing.

这是生产力的最大障碍。

It's the biggest barrier to productivity.

但我们必须相互沟通交流。

But it's essential that we talk to each other.

这样才能产生好创意。

That's how we come up with great ideas.

这样才能共同创造。

That's how we create together.

这其中有很多非常重要的因素。

There are so many things that are so important about that.

过去几年随着企业更广泛采用分布式全球办公模式，人们把许多在办公室时就令人诟病的会议习惯也带到了线上。

And in the last few years, as companies have embraced much more distributed global work, people have brought a lot of the meeting habits that we did not love in the office online with them.

所以现在我们所有人都被困在这些一个接一个的会议中，整天如此。

And so now we're all stuck in these back to back meetings all day long.

而我们真正应该思考的是如何掌控自己的时间，用更高效、更有效的方式来解决会议本应解决的问题。

And what we really think about is taking control of our time and solving the problems that meetings are supposed to solve in different, more efficient, and more effective ways.

因此我认为人们应该考虑在一天中安排三种类型的时间。

And so I think people should think about having kind of three types of time in their day.

第一种是深度工作时间。

One is time for deep work.

你确实需要时间来思考、写作和创造。

You really do need time to think, to write, to create.

根据工作性质的不同，这段时间的表现形式也会有所差异。

Depending on what your job is, that time will look different.

但这是你大脑运转最有效率的时段。

But the time where you're using your brain in the most powerful ways.

而现在你还有人工智能作为这段时间的合作伙伴。

And now you've got AI as a partner during that time as well.

然后我们应该安排会议。

And then we should have meetings.

在Atlassian，我们采用文档主导的会议形式。

And at Atlassian, we do page led meetings.

我们对此理念进行了大量研究。

And we've done a lot of research on this idea.

核心理念是：你需要整理一份清晰的背景摘要，让所有人在对话前掌握必要信息。

And the basic idea is that you put together a really clear synopsis of what everyone needs to know as context to have a conversation.

这种方式特别适用于决策制定、团队对齐，或就某个观点/前进方向寻求反馈的场景。

This works really well when you're trying to make a decision, when you're trying to align people, when you want feedback on a perspective or path forward.

这类会议的核心是聚集团队共同确定前进方向，或至少确保所有人知悉当前进展。

So any of those kinds of meetings where you really are bringing a group together to say, let's chart the path forward or make sure everyone's at least aware of it.

这种场景非常适合文档主导的会议模式。

Those moments work really great for this page led meeting concept.

而且这些文档应该简明扼要。

And the pages should be short.

文档阅读时间不应超过五分钟。

Pages should be no more than a five minute read.

你肯定不希望人们连续阅读好几个小时。

You don't want people reading for hours together.

大家是一起开会时阅读这些材料，还是期望提前阅读？

And do people read those when they all convene together, or is the expectation that you read them in advance?

因为我知道亚马逊的做法是大家在会议室里一起阅读。

Because I know Amazon does in the room we all read.

是的。

Yes.

我们也是在会议室里一起阅读。

We do in the room as well.

但提前阅读很难落实。

But the prereads are tough.

人们不会提前阅读。

People don't do them.

你不确定大家是否完成了预习。

You're not sure if people did them.

你可能做了，但那是四天前的事了。

You maybe did it, but it was four days ago.

现在你已经记不清内容了。

And now that's not top of mind for you.

所以这是个很好的方式，一开始就为所有人奠定背景。

So it's a great way at the beginning to just set the context for everyone.

我们会请大家发表意见。

And we ask people to comment.

你刚才提到有三种利用时间的方式。

So you said there were three ways of using time.

我想再详细了解一下。

I'd love to revisit those.

另外我特别讨厌进度汇报会议。

And then I hate update meetings.

我知道你们都有一种获取信息的有趣方式，我认为每个人都应该考虑。

And I know you all have an interesting way of getting that information that I think everybody should consider.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

那么，时间的三种使用方式。

So three ways of using time.

一种是传统会议。

One is traditional meetings.

另一种是深度工作。

Another is deep work.

第三种是——这听起来可能有点傻——协作。

And the third is, and this sounds so silly, but collaboration.

更灵活的协作。

More fluid collaboration.

我们在试图改进会议的人身上看到，有些团队转向了过度结构化的方式。

And what we've seen in people trying to fix meetings is that some teams have shifted to way too much structure.

因此每次召集大家讨论时，都变成了严格按议程走的形式，有人在做汇报演示。

And so every time that you're bringing people together to talk, it is like very agenda led and someone is giving a presentation.

这种场合其实无法真正实现共同创造。

And that's not the moment where you can really create together.

特别是在分布式团队中，成员分散在不同地点，更需要这种能随时聚集并真正开展工作的灵活时刻。

And so especially if you're working on distributed teams where people are in lots of different locations, having these more fluid moments where you can come together and really just work.

可能是结对编程。

That could be pair programming.

可能是共同撰写一页文档。

That could be writing a page together.

可能是制定创意简报、构思概念、头脑风暴等我们实际协作的各种方式。

That could be doing a creative brief or coming up with concepts, brainstorming, all these different ways that we really do work together.

我认为人们需要开始将其视为不同于正式结构化会议的类别，并为这类协作工作留出更多时间。

And I think people need to start to think about that as a category that is different from a formal structured meeting, but make a lot more time for that kind of collaborative work.

这就是深度时间的概念，你独自一人或许与AI协作者共同处理某项工作。

So it's this notion of deep time where you're by yourself maybe with an AI collaborator working on something.

这是典型的传统结构化会议，通过文档引导，大家同步讨论内容。

It's the typical traditional structured meeting led with pages where you all sync up on what it is we're talking about.

然后是更具协作性、创意性的时段，人们聚在一起，真正自由地完成需要做的工作。

And then the more collaborative, ideative time where people come together and can really have the freedom to do the work that needs to be done.

没错。

Exactly.

而为了有时间完成所有这些事情，你就不能连续参加站立会议做状态汇报。

And in order to have time to do all of those things, you cannot be in back to back standing meetings where you are giving status updates.

人们开会并非毫无缘由。

And people don't have meetings for no reason.

即便会议效率低下——多数情况下他们告诉我们确实如此——他们也是在试图解决问题。

Even if they're not effective, which most of the time they tell us they are not, they're trying to solve a problem.

通常这个问题就是获取或分享信息。

And usually that problem is getting or sharing information.

所以我们大量使用异步视频。

And so we do a lot of asynchronous video.

我们使用一个叫Loom的工具，可以录制自己讲话的视频。

We have a tool called Loom that we use, which lets you record yourself talking.

你可以进行屏幕录制。

You can screen record.

也可以单纯录制自己的视频。

You can just record a video of you.

这比纯文字更新能传递更多信息。

And that captures a lot more signal than simply a written update.

我们发现通过视频交流时人们感觉更紧密，这种人性化信息传递方式有很多好处。

We find that people feel more connected to other people when they communicate through video and that there's a lot of benefits to giving more of that personal touch to information.

因此我们通常要求员工通过文字或Loom视频进行工作进度更新，视需要分享的上下文多少而定。

And so we ask people to usually do their updates, our status updates, either through writing or through limb videos, depending on how much context they need to share.

而且我们将所有工作都与目标对齐。

And we align all of our work to goals.

因此我们围绕目标建立了完整的系统和基础设施。

So there's a whole system and infrastructure around goals.

团队正在开展哪些工作？

What are teams working on?

你们在哪些方面有共同目标？

Where do you have shared goals?

这为我们最初讨论的清晰度创造了很大帮助——我们究竟要共同实现什么目标？

And this creates a lot of that clarity that we were talking about in the beginning, right, Of what are we trying to achieve together?

通过我们的更新分享方式，让人们反复查看并提醒自己这些信息，对于保持对真正目标的共识至关重要。

And just repeatedly having people look at and remind themselves of that information through our ways of sharing updates is huge for staying on the same page about what we're really trying to achieve.

我非常喜欢录制更新这个想法。

I really like that idea of recording the update.

正如你所说，不仅能获取更多信息（更多信号），而且人们可以在需要时接收这些信息。

Not only do you get more information, as you said, more signal, but people can take in that information when they need it.

因此我经常指导那些组织里的员工——他们总是被那些冗长的更新会议搞得精疲力尽，而其中可能只有10%的内容对你有用。

And so I will often coach people in the organizations I go into where people are just so frustrated with these long update meetings where maybe 10% is useful to you.

让每个人都以结构化的方式记录他们的会议内容，这样你就能确保获得同类型的信息。

Have everybody record their sessions in a structured way so you know you're getting the same type of information.

要求是大家必须在会前观看这些记录，这样当你们聚在一起时，就可以直接讨论所学内容，而不是浪费时间听每个人的更新。

And the requirement is that you just watch it in advance of the meeting so when you come together you can actually have discussion about what you learned rather than wasting the time of hearing everybody's update.

我真的很喜欢这种方式。

And I really like that.

我也很欣赏你提到的将这些与更广泛的目标联系起来，并不断提醒人们这些内容如何相互关联。

And I also like what you said about tying these into the broader goal and always reminding people how these things connect.

所以我认为这些都是帮助人们在会议中更高效、更有成效的实用工具。

So I think those are very useful tools to help people be more efficient and effective in their meetings.

我们的目标不是取消所有会议，而是最大化会议对其初衷的效用。

So the idea is not get rid of all the meetings, the idea is maximize the utility of the meetings for what they're meant for.

非常感谢你的分享。

So thank you for that.

稍后我们将继续完成对话，但首先插播一条赞助商信息。

We'll be right back to finish our conversation, But first, we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

这些赞助支持了我们节目的制作成本，使我们能够免费为您呈现。

These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring it to you free of charge.

嗨。

Hi.

我是马特。

Matt here.

随着年关将至，我们许多人都会停下来反思，思考来年想要讲述的故事。

As the year winds down, many of us take a moment to pause, reflect, and think about the stories we want to tell in the year ahead.

而分享这些想法的最佳方式之一，就是在线上建立清晰自信的形象。

And one of the best ways to share those ideas is by creating a clear, confident presence online.

本期《快速思考，智慧表达》由Squarespace赞助播出，这是一个一体化平台，助您将创意变为现实。

This episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one platform that helps you bring your ideas to life.

如果您希望在新年推出新项目，Squarespace能让一切变得简单。

If you're hoping to launch something new in the new year, Squarespace makes it simple.

他们的Blueprint AI工具只需几个步骤，就能帮您打造出精致定制化的网站。

Their blueprint AI tool helps you build a polished, customized site in just a few steps.

通过内置的电子邮件营销和分析工具，您可以在一个平台上保持与受众的联系，并了解哪些内容引起了共鸣。

And with built in email campaigns and analytics, you can stay connected with your audience and understand what's resonating all in one place.

因此，当您展望2026年时，考虑为您的创意提供应得的空间和舞台——用Squarespace搭建的网站来实现。

So as you look ahead to 2026, consider giving your ideas the space and the stage they deserve with a website built on Squarespace.

请访问squarespace.com/tfts获取免费试用。

Head to squarespace.com/tfts for a free trial.

当您准备上线时，使用优惠码TFTS可在首次购买网站或域名时享受9折优惠。

And when you're ready to launch, use the code TFTS to save 10% off of your first purchase of a website or domain.

网址是squarespace.com/tfts。

That's squarespace.com/tfts.

优惠码TFTS。

Offer code TF TS.

那么莫莉，在结束前我想问大家三个问题。

So Molly, before we end, I'd like to ask everybody three questions.

第一个是专门为你准备的，第二个则是自本播客开播以来我一直在问每个人的问题。

One, make up just for you, and two, I've been asking everybody for as long as this podcast has gone on.

你准备好回答了吗？

Are you up for that?

我准备好了。

I am up for that.

我很好奇。

I am curious.

你的团队目前正在研究或从事的哪项工作让你感到特别兴奋？

What is something that your team is currently studying or working on that has you really excited?

我们正在进行大量关于如何真正将AI融入团队的研究。

We are working on a lot of research about how you really make AI part of the team.

我们看到人们在工作与个人生活中越来越多地使用AI。

So we see people are using AI more and more at work and in their personal lives.

但如何解决团队层级的挑战和问题，那些真正让团队协作变得困难的事情？

But how do we solve team level challenges and problems, the things that are really hard about working together?

因此我们正在对团队进行一些非常有趣的干预实验，将AI不仅作为团队中每个人的个人协作者，还融入某些团队流程和工作方式中。

And so we are doing some really interesting interventions right now with teams, where we embed AI not just as an individual collaborator for everyone on the team, but also into some of these team processes and ways of working.

我迫不及待想看到我们从中学到的更多成果。

And I'm very excited to see more of what we learn from that.

等你们开始取得成果时，我很希望你能分享一些发现，我们会努力将这些信息传播出去。

I would love for you when you start getting results to have you share some of that, and we will try to get that information out.

因为我认为这是个重大突破，但同时也可能是个真正的挑战。

Because I see that as a big unlock, but I also see it as something that could be a real challenge.

所以了解你们的发现会非常有趣。

So it'll be really interesting to find what you've learned.

第二个问题，你欣赏哪位沟通者？为什么？

Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

我非常钦佩莫莉·格雷厄姆。

I really admire Molly Graham.

我认为她是个出色的沟通者，能精炼地总结工作中棘手的核心问题，并用类比让这些观点令人难忘。

She, I think, is a fantastic communicator in really synthesizing some of the core things that are hard about work and putting analogies behind them that make them very memorable.

她的工作给我留下了深刻印象。

And I've been really impressed with her work.

她最为人所知的是那篇《送出你的乐高积木》，文中阐述了如何在公司中实现规模扩张和成长。

She's most well known for the Give Away Your Legos piece that she's written about how to scale in companies and how to grow.

但我认为她所有的内容都既实用又令人难忘。

But I think all of her content is so actionable and memorable.

所以我喜欢它的可操作性。

So I like that it's actionable.

这正是我们关注的核心——实用且战术性的行动。

That's what we're all about is practical and tactical actions.

但听起来，通过类比等方式进行综合归纳并使内容易于理解的能力，对于任何希望成为优秀沟通者的人来说都是极好的技能。

But it sounds like the ability to synthesize and to make things accessible through things like analogies, which are wonderful skills for anybody hoping to be a good communicator.

最后一个问题。

Final question.

成功沟通的前三个关键要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

使其产生共鸣。

Making it resonant.

你要让人们立刻感受到你在谈论的内容。

You want people to immediately feel what you're talking about.

清晰。

Clarity.

我认为还有热情。

And I think passion.

当你关心这个话题，关心你的信息时，这种情感会通过你的沟通方式真实地传递出来。

When you care about the topic, when you care about what your message is, that really comes through in the way you communicate.

使其产生共鸣、相关、突出，非常重要。

Making it resonant, relevant, salient, really important.

保持清晰。

Being clear.

你今天多次提到了清晰性。

You've talked about clarity a lot today.

目标的清晰性、与目标的对齐、信息的清晰性，以及热情。

Clarity of goal, alignment to goal, clarity of messages, and then passion.

显然你对帮助人们协作和提升团队效能充满热情。

And you clearly are passionate about helping people collaborate and work better in teams.

感谢你分享这些最佳实践。

Thank you for the best practices.

感谢你帮助我们理解协作与高效工作的具体细节。

Thank you for helping us understand the details of what goes into collaboration and effective work.

也感谢你抽出时间帮助我们所有人提升团队合作能力。

And thank you for your time in helping all of us be better in our teaming.

是的。

Yeah.

非常感谢邀请我参与这次精彩的讨论。

Thank you so much for having me and for this wonderful discussion.

感谢你收听本期《Think Fast, Talk Smart》播客节目。

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

想了解更多关于团队协作的内容，请收听第242期与Colin Fisher的对话。

To learn more about teams and teaming, please listen to episode two forty two with Colin Fisher.

本期节目由凯瑟琳·里德、瑞安·坎波斯和我马特·亚伯拉罕斯共同制作。

This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

我们的音乐来自Floyd Wonder，特别鸣谢The Podium Podcast Company。

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to The Podium Podcast Company.

请在YouTube及各大播客平台搜索我们。

Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

记得订阅并为我们评分。

Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

同时关注我们的LinkedIn、TikTok和Instagram账号。

Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram.

访问fastersmarter.io获取深度视频、英语学习内容及订阅我们的通讯。

And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

欢迎订阅我们的高级会员服务，享受加长版DeepThinks节目、AMA问答、向马特提问等更多内容，详情请见fastersmarter.iopremium。

Please consider our premium offering for extended DeepThinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.iopremium.

感谢您今天与我们共度时光。

Thanks for spending time with us today.