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先提醒一下，今天这期节目中有未经消音的脏话。
A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show.
如果你更喜欢经过消音的版本，可以在我们的网站 thisamericanlife.org 上找到。
If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.
《美国生活》，梅拉·格拉斯。
This American Life, Myra Glass.
最近我们在广播节目中讨论过一种特定类型的电影，即‘关于拍电影的电影’，也就是讲述另一部电影（通常是更著名的那部）制作过程的影片。
We've been talking here at the radio show recently about a certain genre of movie, which is the making of movie, a movie about the making of another film, usually a much more famous one.
经典例子是《现代启示录》的幕后纪录片《黑暗之心》，其中包含了导演弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉的妻子埃莉诺在电影拍摄期间拍摄的影像。
A classic is hearts of darkness, which is a making of documentary about the film Apocalypse Now, which has footage of the director Francis Ford Coppola's wife, Eleanor, shot at the time the movie was being filmed.
更令人惊讶的是，她还偷偷录下了丈夫的谈话，录到了他对自己怀疑和绝望的倾诉。
Plus, incredibly, these recordings that she made of her husband without him knowing it, where he's talking about his self doubt, his despair.
这部电影是一场耗资两千万美元的灾难。
This film is a $20,000,000 disaster.
我都在想不如开枪自杀算了。
I'm thinking of shooting myself.
影片中捕捉到了演员们自然的瞬间，比如丹尼斯·霍珀和当时年仅14岁的劳伦斯·菲什伯恩。
There are candid moments with the actors, Dennis Hopper, Laurence Fishburne, who's 14 years old when they were making that film.
饰演主角的马丁·辛在拍摄期间突发心脏病。
Martin Sheen, who plays the main character, has a heart attack when they're there.
36岁。
36.
马龙·白兰度，这部电影最昂贵的明星。
Marlon Brando, the film's most expensive star.
在某个时刻，科波拉意识到白兰度根本没有读过这部电影所基于的小说《黑暗之心》，因此他完全不理解自己角色的内涵。
At some point, Coppola realizes that Brando has not read the book that the movie is based on, Heart of Darkness, so he does not get who his character is.
他每周的片酬高达一百万美元。
He's being paid a million dollars a week.
在整个拍摄过程中，不断透露出一些线索和片段，展现了他们拍摄这部电影的真实环境。
And all throughout, there are hints and glimpses of what's really happening in reality in the place that they're filming this movie.
他们正在菲律宾拍摄，而那里正由美国支持的独裁者与共产主义叛乱势力作战。
They're in The Philippines, where US supported autocrat is fighting a war against a communist insurgency.
这部电影中的直升机是美国制造的，由菲律宾军方的飞行员驾驶，但他们不断被调走，返回真实的战场。
The movie's helicopters are US made choppers flown by pilots in the Philippine military who keep getting pulled away to go back to the real war.
等一下。
Wait a second.
稍等。
Stand by.
我们刚听说他们调走了我们五架直升机。
We just heard they're taking away five of our helicopters.
是你做的吗？
Did you do it?
电影《现代启示录》讲述的是越南战争，但它是一个宏大的神话版越南，充满了超凡脱俗的角色。
The film Apocalypse Now is about Vietnam, but it's a big mythic version of Vietnam, full of larger than life characters.
电影的制作过程揭示了这些普通人一砖一瓦建造这座宏伟殿堂的场景。
The making of film reveals the normal sized people building this grand cathedral brick by brick.
你看到每个人为了在虚构的、不可能的越南中创造一场假战争，不得不经历的荒谬过程，这也引出了我今天广播节目的主题。
You see the ridiculous lanes everybody had to go through to create their pretend war in a fake, impossible Vietnam, which brings me to today's radio show.
今天的节目是一种不同类型的幕后制作。
Today's show is a making of of a different kind.
它讲述的是人们如何描绘一个地方、那里正在发生的一场事件，而这个地方就是俄勒冈州的波特兰。
It's people creating a picture of a place, an award that's happening there, and that place is Portland, Oregon.
我们将探讨波特兰作为一个概念，这座城市在这个政治时刻所代表的含义。
We're gonna talk about Portland as a concept, what the city has come to mean in this political moment.
去年九月，你可能还记得，特朗普总统在Truth Social上宣称，他要派遣军队进入他所谓的‘饱受战争摧残的波特兰’，以保护那里受到安提法袭击的移民与海关执法局设施。
Back in September, you may remember, president Trump declared on Truth Social that he was gonna send troops into what he called war ravaged Portland to protect ice facilities there that were, quote, under siege from attack by Antifa.
他说，这件事是偶然引起他注意的。
Broken came to his attention, he said, by chance.
你知道，波特兰根本不在我的计划之内。
You know, that was not on my list, Portland.
但昨晚我看电视时，才发现这件事一直在发生。
But when I watched television last night, this has been going on.
抗议者实际上从六月起就一直在ICE设施外示威。
Protesters had actually been outside the ICE facility since June.
但福克斯新闻在前一天播出了关于波特兰的报道。
But Fox News, the night before, had run a story about Portland.
福克斯新闻的报道，包括这篇报道，有一个特点：它大量使用了并非由专业电视新闻团队拍摄的抗议者画面，而是由右翼对波特兰形象构想背后的真正创作者拍摄的。
And one thing about Fox's coverage, including that story, is that Fox's coverage includes lots of footage of protesters that is not filmed by professional TV news crews but by the real auteurs behind the right wing's idea of what Portland is.
这些是右翼的公民记者，他们一直出现在抗议现场，比任何人都更频繁地进行报道，尤其是那些在现场进行直播的人。
These are right wing citizen journalists who've been there at the protest, covering them more than anybody, especially live streamers who were there.
这些人支持特朗普，支持ICE，他们在波特兰抗议现场直播，声称当地的左翼政府对抗议者过于软弱，任由安提法肆意妄为，并在YouTube和X上进行直播。
These are people who believe in Trump, believe in ICE, who streamed from the Portland protests, saying that their lefty local government was soft on the protesters, letting Antifa run amok, live streaming on YouTube and X.
这里所有这些人就是波特兰的安提法，全都穿着黑色衣服。
All these people right here are the Antifa of Portland, all in black.
你会回来吗？
Would you come back?
我要他妈的抽一根，
I'm gonna fucking smoke me,
伙计。
dude.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yes.
一些公民记者后来经常上福克斯新闻，谈论这件事。
Some of the citizen journalists became regular guests on Fox talking about this.
对于那些说这些设施前没有暴力发生的人，你怎么说？
For people who say that there's not violence going on in front of these facilities, what do you say?
这完全是谎言。
It's a complete lie.
那里发生了大量暴力事件。
There's lots of violence going on.
我的意思是，这些人非常危险，就在前几天晚上还完全失控了。
I mean, these people are very dangerous, and they're unhinged last just the other night.
总统宣布波特兰遭受战争破坏并被围困后一周半
And a week and a half after the president declared Portland to be war ravaged and under siege
你正在看到一个
and you're seeing a
他邀请这些主播到白宫参加关于反法西斯主义的圆桌会议。
he invited these streamers to the White House for a roundtable on Antifa.
这真是非凡。
It was remarkable.
至少这三位勇敢的记者本人曾遭受过反法西斯主义者的袭击。
At least three of these courageous journalists have personally been victims of Antifa attacks.
特朗普坐在U形桌子的中央，周围有大约十几名记者和主播，持续了一个半小时。
Trump sat at the center of a u shaped table, about a dozen of these reporters and streamers for an hour and a half.
在特朗普的桌子左右两侧，坐着联邦政府的全部政治和执法力量。
And flanking Trump at the table and his immediate left and right was the full political and law enforcement firepower of the federal government.
克里斯蒂安·诺姆，国土安全部部长，联邦调查局局长，卡什·帕特尔，司法部长帕姆·邦迪，国务卿马可·卢比奥。
Kristian Noem, head of the Department of Homeland Security, head of the FBI, Kash Patel, attorney general Pam Bondi, secretary of state Marco Rubio.
总统致开幕词后，国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆，刚从波特兰飞抵现场，直接对这些主播发表了讲话。
After the president's opening remarks, Christy Noem, head of DHS, fresh off the plane from Portland herself, talked directly to the streamers.
我想感谢今天在这里的新记者们，分享你们的故事，并愿意走上街头，报道美国正在发生的事情。
I wanna thank the new journalists here today for telling their stories and for being able and willing to go to the streets and to cover what's happening here in America.
很多时候，传统媒体却视而不见，拒绝讲述这些故事，而这个安提法网络的复杂程度，丝毫不亚于13号帮派、TDA、ISIS、真主党、哈马斯等所有组织。
Many times, the legacy media has looked the other way, refused to tell the stories and how this network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as MS thirteen, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them.
当这些网络主播发言时，他们用末日般的言辞描述安提法——这个所谓的全球性反政府、反法西斯网络。
When the streamers spoke, it was in apocalyptic terms about Antifa, this supposed global network of anti government, anti fascists.
这些主播不仅谈论自己曾遭受安提法抗议者的暴力袭击，还说他们每天都冒着生命危险工作。
Dreamers talked not just about being personally assaulted by Antifa protesters, but putting their lives on the line every day.
一位主播表示，她真心相信，如果总统没有对安提法宣战，今天坐在这张桌子旁的人在波特兰就会被杀害。
One streamer said that she genuinely believed that if the president had not declared war on Antifa, at this table would have been killed in Portland.
以下是报道波特兰事件最知名的公民记者之一。
Here's one of the best known citizen journalists covering Portland.
尼克·索特。
Nick Sorter.
他经常上福克斯新闻。
He's been on Fox a bunch.
坦率地说，这些城市和警察部门正在与反法西斯主义者合作，比如波特兰。
Frankly, these cities and police departments are cooperating with Antifa, such as Portland.
这令人作呕。
It's sickening.
我亲眼见过，显然如此。
I've seen it firsthand, obviously.
特朗普总统，您提到了那面旗帜。
And President Trump, you mentioned that flag.
所以请记住，就在我说完之后，您就发布了一个真相。
So remember, you put out a truth right after I
没错。
That's right.
我看到了。
I saw it.
我从那个在街上焚烧旗帜的人手里拿走了这面旗帜。
Took this flag from that from that man that was burning it in the street.
我看到你知道是谁
I saw do you know who
他是谁？
he is?
哦，当然。
Oh, yeah.
我完全知道他是谁。
I know exactly who it is.
那为什么你不把它交给帕姆？
It's So why don't you give it to Pam?
把它交给司法部长，让我们开始起诉吧。
Give it to the attorney general and let's start prosecutions.
司法部长，帕姆·邦迪。
The attorney general, Pam Bondi.
我已经把这一点告诉她了，她已经开始调查了。
I've sent it that point to say she's already started an investigation.
所有这些行动的目的，也是政府通过这次活动想要传达的核心观点是：在波特兰，这些直播主和公民记者证明了安提法对美国的威胁是真实存在的，并呼吁展开一场全国范围的大搜捕。
The purpose of all this, the point the administration was making with this event, was that in Portland, these streamers and citizen journalists were proving that the threat to America from Antifa is real, and that a massive nationwide hunt was called for.
这不仅仅意味着向波特兰这样的美国城市派遣军队。
And this didn't just mean sending troops into American cities like Portland.
还意味着将安提法视为国内恐怖组织。
It also meant treating Antifa as a domestic terror organization.
总统刚刚正式将其定性为恐怖组织。
The president had just named it that.
他命令国家联合反恐工作组与联邦调查局、司法部及其他机构合作，制定一项全国性战略，以调查和起诉安提法，并打击那些被指资助政治暴力的左翼团体。
He ordered the National Joint Terrorism Task Force to create a national strategy to investigate and prosecute them with the FBI, the Justice Department, and other agencies, and to go after left wing groups that it says are funding political violence.
在这次圆桌会议上，有发言者点名了其中一些组织，比如乔治·索罗斯的开放社会基金会，这些组织当然都否认有任何此类行为。
Speaker at this roundtable named some of them, like George Soros' Open Society Foundations, organizations who, of course, deny doing any such thing.
自那以后，起诉行动已经开始。
Since then, prosecutions are underway.
就在本周，联邦调查局声称挫败了南加利福尼亚州一群反资本主义无政府主义左翼分子策划的炸弹阴谋，该团体名为‘龟岛解放阵线’。
Just this week, the FBI claimed to have disrupted a bomb plot in Southern California by anti capitalist anarchist leftists with a group called the Turtle Island Liberation Front.
需要明确的是，我国确实存在暴力左翼团体，就像右翼也有暴力团体一样。
To be clear, there is no question that there are violent leftist groups in our country, just like there are violent groups on the right.
但现有的法律已经足够，执法部门追查这些团体一直是联邦调查局的长期职责。
But there are already laws in place, and law enforcement going after them has been one of the FBI's jobs forever.
这是一种针对左翼政治暴力、前所未有的大规模镇压行动。
This is a new kind of crackdown at a new scale targeted only at political violence on the left.
美国是一个幅员辽阔的国家。
America is a big country.
我们所有人，包括总统在内，都依赖他人提供的图像和文字来了解其他地方正在发生什么。
We all, with the president on down, rely on images and words from other people to understand what's going on elsewhere.
一幅关于波特兰的图景——一部将波特兰描绘成饱受战争摧残、安提法中心、亟需军事干预的电影。
And a vision of Portland, a movie about Portland, as a place that's war ravaged, a hub for Antifa, ripe for military intervention.
这个由这些直播主和公民记者传播、并在右翼电视和社交媒体上被放大的故事，为今天全国范围内所有这些执法政策提供了正当性，当然，还有另一个故事——查理·柯克遇刺事件。
That story, promulgated by these streamers and citizen journalists, amplified on right wing TV and social media, That story is justification for all these law enforcement policies all over the country today, along with another story, of course, the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
我们想亲自去看看波特兰。
We wanted to see Portland for ourselves.
我们想亲眼看看这个关于波特兰真相的故事是如何形成的。
We wanted to see the making of this story about what Portland is.
现实情况，幕后的真相，不仅与他们拍摄和讲述的故事大不相同，而且要有趣得多。
The reality, the behind the scenes, turns out not just to be very different, but a lot more interesting than the thing that they're filming and the story that they're telling.
请继续关注。
Stay with us.
这是美国生活，第一幕：实现美国梦。
This is American life, act one, living the American dream.
好的。
Okay.
在我们前往波特兰之前，先说几个基本事实。
So some basic facts before we head off to Portland.
总统对波特兰的描述听起来像是整座城市都处于围困之中，但我想在这个故事的形成过程中，我们首先需要澄清的是，抗议者与警察之间的整个冲突——这场‘战争’——实际上只发生在ICE设施外的一条街巷上。
The way the president has described Portland, it might sound like an entire city under siege, but I think the first thing we need to clarify in this making of is that the entire conflict between protesters and police, the entire war, is happening on exactly one city block outside an ICE facility.
自六月以来，几乎每天都有抗议者在那里反对特朗普总统的移民政策，就像全国其他地方的抗议活动一样。
Pretty much every day since June, protesters have been there opposing president Trump's immigration policies, like other protests around the country.
针对ICE的暴力行为主要是阻拦和延缓其进出车辆，以及一些小规模冲突，联邦警察会发射催泪弹和辣椒球。
Level of violence directed towards ICE is mostly blocking and slowing down their vehicles that are coming in and out and small scuffles where federal police fire tear gas and pepper balls.
六月有一天，局势升级，被宣布为暴乱。
There was one day in June when things flared up and were declared a riot.
抗议者用路标撞碎了一扇玻璃门，并用石头击中了一名夜间特工的头部。
Protesters rammed a stop sign through a glass door, hit a night's agent in the head with a rock.
那天是个例外。
That day was kind of a one off.
从那以后，每天的状况通常是几十人到两百人不等，带着音乐、喊口号、使用扩音器。
What it's been since then, on any given day, is anywhere from a half dozen to 200 people with music, chanting, bullhorns.
白天，这里可能有种嘉年华式的行为艺术氛围，比如街头萨尔萨舞课，还有人穿着充气青蛙服装。
During the daytime, it can have a kind of carnival performance art vibe, a street salsa class, people in inflatable frog costumes.
有个打扮成鲍勃·罗斯的人，架着画架和调色板，正在为ICE官员画油画。
There's a guy dressed like Bob Ross with an easel and a palette doing an oil painting of the ice officers.
但到了晚上，与ICE的对峙可能会变得更加激烈。
But then at night, it can get more confrontational with ice.
有时抗议者会焚烧美国国旗，在建筑外涂鸦，燃放烟花，抗议者与混入其中的流媒体人员之间会发生对峙。
Sometimes protesters have burned American flags, graffitied outside the building, shot fireworks, and it gets confrontational between the protesters and the streamers who mix it up with them.
通常，流媒体人员人数从几个到大约三十人不等。
Usually, they're anywhere between just a few streamers to maybe 30 or so.
现场变得非常嘈杂且具干扰性，住在ICE设施附近的人们向警方投诉噪音问题。
It gets really noisy and disruptive, and people living near the ICE facility complain to police about the noise.
当流媒体人员和公民记者称波特兰警方放任这一切发生时，这确实属实。
And when the streamers and citizen journalists say that the Portland police let all this happen, there's truth to that.
他们并未阻止抗议者堵塞人行道或包围并拖延ICE车辆。
They haven't stopped protesters from blocking sidewalks or surrounding and delaying ICE vehicles.
他们允许抗议者制造噪音。
They've allowed them to make noise.
一名法官裁定这是可以接受的。
A judge ruled that it was okay.
当我们的制片人佐伊·蔡斯与另一位制片人苏珊娜·加伯在十月飞往波特兰时，情况就是如此。
That was the state of things when one of our producers, Zoe Chase, flew to Portland in October with another producer, Suzanne Gabber.
这是他们的故事。
Here's their story.
我们到达时，白宫关于波特兰和反法西斯的圆桌会议已经过去大约两周了。
When we got there, it'd been about two weeks after the White House roundtable about Portland and Antifa.
我们在十月底一个周六晚上十点后到达。
We got there after ten on a Saturday night late October.
天气寒冷多雨，但有很多人沿着人行道来回走动。
It was cold and rainy, but there are a lot of people out here wandering up and down the sidewalk.
这并不是我原本想象中那种邋遢的抗议者在泥泞中拖着毛茸茸的尾巴、跳着《我会活下去》之类的荒诞反法西斯波特兰抗议场景。
And it's not grimy protesters dragging furry tails in the mud dancing to I will survive or whatever I was picturing the campy Antifa Portland protest scene to be at this point.
我们走进的场景更像一场特朗普集会。
What we walk into is more like a Trump rally.
美国。
USA.
美国。
USA.
我想让你想象一下。
I want you to picture.
这是一整条街区，一边是冰上设施，另一边是高大的公寓楼。
This is one long block with an ice facility on one side and a tall apartment building on the other.
两侧是长长的人行道，中间是一条宽阔的街道，通向旧的意大利面工厂。
Two long sidewalks, a big street in the middle that leads to the old spaghetti factory.
即使在这么晚的夜晚，人们也涌满了街道的两侧。
People are swarming both sides of the street, even late at night like this.
一群身穿黄色雨衣的市政警察站在周围。
There are a bunch of city cops in yellow slickers standing around.
所有这些人都拿着手机和长长的自拍杆，一边对着手机说话，一边互相交谈。
And all these people wandering around with their phones on long selfie sticks, talking into the phones and talking to each other.
这些人群中，有些我认识，是参加过白宫圆桌会议或上过福克斯新闻的苏珊，但大部分我完全不知道他们在干什么。
Some of these people, Susan, I recognize from the White House roundtable or from appearances on Fox, but mainly, I have no idea what I'm looking at.
于是我们遇到了一位很有价值的直播主。
So we meet up with this one valuable streamer.
她自称是分析师，叫卡琳·博里森科。
She calls herself an analyst, Carlin Borysenko.
她在YouTube上有12.8万订阅者，现在正给我们指认这些人。
128,000 subscribers on YouTube, and she's just pointing people out to us.
那个穿衣服的家伙在
The guy in
戴面具的是个MAGA支持者。
the mask is a MAGA guy.
那个戴黄帽子的家伙是安提法。
The guy with the yellow hat right there is Antifa.
举着旗帜的家伙是安提法。
The guy with the flag is Antifa.
通常，卡琳是在家直播的。
Normally, Carlin's streaming from home.
她算是对直播主们进行评论的人。
She's kind of a commentator about the streamers.
她会同时开着四个不同主播的直播视频，就像摄像头一。
She'll have, like, four different live videos up from four different live streamers, and it's like, camera one.
不。
No.
摄像头二。
Camera two.
我们会带你了解视频中该看什么或谁。
We'll walk you through what or who to watch in the videos.
卡琳是个从左派转变过来的人，现在非常偏向右派。
Karlyn's a recovered lefty, now very much on the right.
她自认为是反法西斯专家。
She considers herself an Antifa expert.
她认识所有这些右翼主播和网红，所以跟着她是个不错的选择。
She knows all these right wing streamers and influencers, so 's a good person to follow around.
嗯，JD·迪莱在那里。
Well, JD Delay is there.
他在YouTube上有大约一百六十万订阅者。
He's got, like, 1,600,000 subscribers on YouTube.
他戴着迷彩帽。
He's in the camo hat.
而且他
And he's
我还注意到尼克·索特，他在X上有130万粉丝。
I also spot Nick Sorter, 1,300,000 followers on x.
卡姆·希格比，有21.6万YouTube订阅者。
Cam Higbee, 216,000 YouTube subscribers.
他们俩都在白宫。
They're both at the White House.
所以，这里很多人只是在记录正在发生的事情，我认为很多人在这里都试图拍到最好的画面，不管他们支持哪一方。
So, like, a lot of people out here, it's kinda like they're just showing what's happening, and I think a lot of people out here are trying to get the best footage they can regardless of what side they're on.
他们为什么这么做？
And what do they why?
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what I mean?
就是，为什么？
Like, why?
这并不是没被报道过。
It's not as though it's not covered.
我们现在正处于一档真人秀中。
We're in a we're in a reality show right now.
我们能从这个角度、那个角度，或者那边看到这档真人秀。
We're and and you can see the reality show from that angle or that angle or down there.
我的意思是，我在家时会在YouTube频道上连续看几个小时的直播，你会发现有这么多不同的视角。
You know, I mean, I watch the livestreams for hours and hours and time on my YouTube channel when I'm at home, and it's like, you have all these different angles.
你可以随意切换，看看情况，你知道吧？
You can skip around, see what's it's like you know what?
这就像是《老大哥》的房子，你可以随时进入厨房或卧室，偷偷观察人们。
It's like it's like the big brother house where you can go in the kitchen or the bedroom just to kinda spy on people.
同样的事情，只不过我们真的身在其中。
Same thing, except we're actually in it.
过一阵子就会上瘾。
And it's addictive after a while.
就像你开始觉得，这个故事里有角色。
It's like you start like, there are characters in this story.
有一些人一直在这里。
There are people that are here all the time.
所以你会渐渐对其中一些人产生好感。
So you get kind of like endeared to some of them.
为什么这么多右翼主播在我们来这里的那个周末聚集在同一地点，是有原因的。
There's a reason so many right wing streamers are in the same place at the same time the weekend that we're here.
自从白宫圆桌会议以来，越来越多的这类主播开始来这里。
Since the White House roundtable, more and more of these streamers have been showing up here.
最近，反ICE抗议者做了一件事，他们贴出了一张海报，上面列出了许多右翼网红的脸庞、账号和真实姓名，并写着：别上钩。
Then recently, the anti ICE protesters did this thing, which was put up a poster with a bunch of right wing influencers faces and handles and real names on it saying, don't take the bait.
意思是别给这些人提供他们可以当作宣传素材的内容。
Meaning like don't give these guys content that they'll use as propaganda.
这些主播看到后就说：好吧，那我们全都一起来，拍一大堆你们这些怪人的视频。
The streamers saw that and were like, okay, well, we're now all gonna come at once And we're gonna make a lot of videos of you weirdos.
他们把这叫作‘爱国者周末’。
And they're calling it Patriot weekend.
有些人只是站在雨里抽烟聊天。
Some people are just standing around smoking and talking in the rain.
然后突然间形成了一些大圈，人们推搡着大喊大叫，就像操场上的打斗。
And then these big circles form out of what seems like nowhere with people pushing and yelling, like a playground fight.
天啊，听这恋童癖音乐，兄弟。
Man, listen to that pedophile music, bro.
其他人都挤来挤去，拍摄圈内打斗的场景——要明确的是，这通常是喊叫式的争执，而不是拳脚相向的打斗。
With all these other people jostling to film the fight in the middle of the circle, which is a yelling fight to be clear, usually not a fist fight.
而圈内的人则在拍摄自己被拍摄的场景，并实时直播给他们的粉丝。
And the people inside the circle are filming themselves being filmed and streaming that live to their followers.
这是一个由人群和手机围成的圈子，里面在打架。
It's a circle of people and phones in a fight.
我走到这样一群人旁边，试图挤进去看中心发生了什么。
I walk up to a group like this, try to push my way inside to see what's in the center.
看起来像是一个穿着防弹衣的家伙正在直播自己，对着一个拿着美国队长盾牌的人大喊大叫。
It looks like a dude in a bulletproof vest streaming a video of himself, yelling at a guy with a Captain America shield.
冒充军功。
Stolen Valor.
我们刚刚证实了。
We just proved it.
太恶心了。
It's disgusting.
你是个骗子。
You're a liar.
哦，真是
Oh, what a
显然，现在有成千上万的人正在网上观看这场直播。
Apparently, thousands of people are watching this online right now.
卡林和我挤进另一个围观人群，但中心却什么都没发生。
Carlin and I elbow our way into a different crowd, but at the center, nothing's happening.
似乎刚才那场打斗刚结束，那些观看打斗的主播们开始互相谈论刚才打斗的内容。
It seems like some fight has just ended, and the streamers who are watching the fight start talking to each other about whatever that fight was about.
这挺搞笑的。
It's funny.
就像现在，他们直接开起了关于刚才发生的事的脱口秀。
Like, now they're just doing, like, a talk show of what just happened.
这种情况经常发生。
And that and that happens a lot.
这其实就是那种事情。
And it's, like, it's one of those things.
再说一遍，这就像一场表演。
Again, it's like, it's a spectacle.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，这边发生着什么事，但你得跑过去那边。
You know, there's something going on over here, but then you get to run over there.
也许你能在那边挑起点什么事。
And maybe you get to provoke something over here.
你永远不知道会发生什么。
You just never know what's gonna happen.
你知道的？
You know?
所以我是
So I
我是嬉皮士版的MAGA。
am hippie MAGA.
我与众不同。
I'm different.
这是另一个随机路人插话。
This is another Rando chiming in.
他穿着《谋杀绿脚趾》里那个家伙的全套长袍，戴着珠子。
He's dressed like the dude from The Big Lebowski in a full robe with beads.
什么是嬉皮士MAGA？
What's hippie MAGA?
我只是试图建立联系，我更注重达成共识，而不是通过支配来取胜。
Just about trying to connect and I'm trying to make more agreements than trying to win through domination.
就像在辩论中，我不是为了赢辩论而赢，而是想进行一场对话。
Like like in a debate, instead of winning the debate by winning the debate, I'm trying to have a conversation.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以你在这里和那些不同意你观点的人交谈。
So you're out here talking to people who disagree with you.
这是你的计划吗？
Is that your plan?
我确实如此。
I do.
我确实如此。
I do.
基本上，和任何人聊聊就行。
Talk just talk to whoever, basically.
嗯。
Yeah.
刚才那边被乌鸦采访过了。
Got interviewed by the crow earlier over there.
乌鸦是谁？
Who's the crow?
我不知道。
I have no idea.
某个网络上的乌鸦。
Some Internet crow.
有很多我根本不认识的用户名在飞来飞去。
Lots of handles flying around that I don't know.
卡林环顾四周。
Carlin looks around.
现在人们是不是在等什么？
Is there something people are, like, waiting for now?
大家到底在这里做什么？
Like, what is everyone doing here?
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
现在都十点半了，又冷又下雨。
It's, like, 10:30 is really cold and rainy.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，你看那边好像要发生什么事了。
Well, you can see something's about to happen over there.
看起来有一大群人正朝那边走过去。
Well, it looks like a whole bunch of people are walking over there.
所以我不知道要发生什么，但是
So I don't know what's about to happen, but
我们去看看吧。
Let's go see.
我们去看看吧。
Let's go see.
哎呀。
Uh-oh.
大家都拿着手机站在那里。
Everyone is just standing around with their phones.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为如果一直没发生打斗，那就没什么可拍的了。
Because it's like if there's not if there's no fight at some point, then there's nothing really to film.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
所以，总得发生点什么，不然就没什么好看的了。
So, like, at some point, something has to happen or there's nothing to see.
你知道吗，我见过的一种情况就像我大学时的医生。
And you know what I've kind of seen is it's like my college doctor.
我们在这里对你表示羞耻。
And we're putting out there shame on you.
好的。
Okay.
羞耻。
Shame.
羞耻。
Shame.
帕姆是个疯子，她喜欢跑来大喊大叫。
Pam is crazy a person, and she likes to come and yell.
你不是心理学家。
You're not a psychologist.
现在有人走上去开始责骂卡林，一位年长的女士，前知名人士，MAGA奶奶。
Now someone comes up and starts scolding Carlin, an older lady, infamous on ex, the MAGA granny.
她在1月6日冲击国会大厦后入狱，但如今她立场反转，出现在你能想到的每一个反特朗普活动中。
She went to prison for storming the Capitol on January 6, but she's flipped and now she's at every anti Trump event you can think of.
右翼人士称她为帕姆·蒂法。
The right wingers call her Pam Tifa.
根本不知道你在说什么。
Don't even know what you're talking about.
你生什么气啊，帕姆？
What are you upset about, Pam?
大型主播在任何时候都可能有数万人观看，具体取决于当时的情况。
The big streamers can have tens of thousands of people watching them at one time, depending on what's going on.
他们通过付费订阅者赚取真金白银。
And they make real money from that, from paid subscribers.
粉丝会实时给他们打赏。
Fans tip them in real time.
今晚这里有一位主播，他是在直播《堡垒之夜》之后进入这一行的。
One streamer out here tonight, he got into this after streaming Fortnite.
他告诉我们，在这里赚钱更多。
This pays more, he told us, being out here.
另一位主播汤米男孩，辞去了他在地方政府的工作。
Another streamer, Tommy Boy, quit his job in local government.
他说他通过直播赚得更多。
He says he makes more money streaming.
但大多数主播更像迈克·罗斯，一位外地的主播。
But most streamers are more like Mike Ross, an out of town streamer.
我跟着他转了好几个小时。
I followed him around for hours.
他说他靠加密货币赚了钱，所以这对他来说只是个爱好，而不是工作。
He says he made money on crypto, so this is a hobby for him, not a job.
至少目前还不是。
Not yet anyway.
他是个高大的白人，穿着一件大号棕色连帽衫，手机架在三脚架上，以便从很高的位置拍摄。
He's a very tall white guy in a big brown sweatshirt with a phone on a tripod so he can film from really high up.
他是一名心理健康倡导者，也是一名残疾退伍军人。
He's a mental health advocate and a disabled veteran.
他在X平台上的昵称是Mentally Idaho。
He goes by Mentally Idaho on X.
他来这里时间不长，粉丝也相对较少，只有六千人。
He's relatively new here, relatively few followers, 6,000.
他的风格像高中橄榄球教练。
His vibe is high school football coach.
这个周末我飞回来参加爱国者周末活动，一直在拍摄和直播，努力捕捉别人拍不到的角度，因为我能做别人做不到的事。
I flew back this weekend for a patriot weekend and just filming and live streaming and trying to get angles that other people don't get because my I can do this and record what other people can't do.
是的。
Yeah.
你有一根超长的钓鱼竿。
You have, like, a big fish pole.
你能拍到很高的角度。
You can get up really high.
是的。
Yeah.
而且你还很高。
Plus, you're tall.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以我经常会做这种事。
So I kinda do stuff like that.
你对这一切混乱怎么看？
What do you think of all the chaos?
我刚到这儿，说实话。
I just got here, honestly.
但你没有答案。
But you don't have an answer.
我没有答案。
I don't have an answer.
蠢货。
Dumb fuck.
这就要
This is going
迈克说过一件事，关于这里人们彼此交谈的方式。
Mike said this thing about the way people talk to each other here.
说他们多么刻薄、幼稚、直白且粗俗。
How mean and juvenile and graphic and vulgar it is.
这真的就像置身于社交媒体内部，仿佛我们活在现实中的评论区里。
It's really like walking around inside social media, like we're in the comments section in real life.
记住，在这里直播的每个人都不是独自一人。
Remember, every person streaming here is not alone.
他们周围有一群看不见的乌合之众，有时像操控视频游戏角色一样驱动着他们。
They have this invisible mob surrounding them, sometimes animating them like a video game avatar.
迈克的聊天室不断给他指示，让他去这儿去那儿，协同合作，促成各种事件并转化为内容。
Mike's chat points him in various directions saying, go here, go there, collaborating and making things happen that turn into content.
当我跟迈克在一起时，有一位主播被逮捕了，他的妻子非常难过。
While I'm there with Mike, one of the streamers gets arrested, and his wife is really upset.
迈克告诉她，他们会从聊天室里获得帮助。
Mike tells her they're gonna get help from the chat.
再说一遍？
Say it again?
他们说他可能得交保释金才能出来。
They said that he might have to pay bail to get out.
好的。
Okay.
人们想知道该怎么给钱。
People wanna know how to how to give money.
所以等下我们会去汤米的聊天室，你可以跟两个聊天室都谈谈这件事。
So in a minute, we'll walk down to Tommy's chat and you can talk to both chats about that.
好吗？
Okay?
你有Venmo或者现金吗？
You have a Venmo or a cash Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我们会帮你安排好。
We'll we'll get you set up.
我的
My
我的手机快没电了。
phone's about to die.
等一下。
Hang on.
等一下。
Hang on.
开。
On.
等一下。
Hang on.
等一下。
Hang on.
开。
On.
看看这个。
Check this out.
USB-C 还是 Lightning？
USB c or lightning?
C。
C.
给你。
Here you go.
哇哦。
Woah.
给你。
Here you go.
给你。
Here you go.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
布里，帮我个忙，深呼吸几次。
Brie, do me a favor and take some deep breaths.
迈克把自己看作一个帮助者。
Mike sees himself as a helper.
他说，他在医院经历了一次工作人员违背他意愿给他用药的事件后，开始投身于心理健康问题的倡导活动。
He got into activism around mental health issues after a hospital staff, he says, medicated him against his will.
他被诊断出患有创伤后应激障碍。
He's been diagnosed with PTSD.
严重的复杂性创伤后应激障碍源于长期的创伤经历。
Severe complex PTSD comes from a life of trauma.
所以从我有边缘型人格开始，
So ever since I was like I have borderline personality.
从我还是个孩子的时候，我就一直遭受创伤。
Ever since I was a kid, I've been traumatized.
我曾被虐待。
I've been abused.
我一直被人欺负。
I've been picked on.
我被人打过。
I've been beaten.
所以在我整个生命中，后来我当了海军，学会了为自己挺身而出。
So my whole life, then I go become a marine and learn to stand up for myself.
为别人挺身而出。
Stand up for other people.
你要为弱者、为脆弱的人挺身而出。
You stand up for the weak, for the vulnerable.
因此，这种经历促使我运用自己的能力和技能去帮助他人。
So that kind of propelled me into use my my abilities and my skills to help people.
我在这里遇到的很多人，都有着异常相似的故事：艰难的童年，然后经历了一些定义人生、非常美国式的创伤，这些似乎解释了他们为什么在这里。
A lot of people I talked to out here had oddly similar stories, tough childhood, and then some life defining very American trauma that seemed to explain what they were doing down here.
阿富汗战争、金融危机、新冠疫情封锁、1月6日事件。
The war in Afghanistan, the financial crisis, the COVID lockdowns, January 6.
而这些人似乎都通过直播找到了某种应对这些事件的解药。
And each of these people seem to find an antidote of sorts to those events via the streaming thing.
记录这种真实生活的实时政治视频游戏，扮演好人。
Recording this real life live action political video game, being one of the good guys.
找到一个社区，不只是在线上，而是在现实中，但以一种线上的方式。
Finding a community of people, not just online, but in real life, but in an online sort of way.
一群关心你所关心的事、认为你所做之事重要的小观众。
A little audience who cares about what you care about and thinks what you're doing is important.
比如迈克，他现在和妻子关系不好。
For example, like with Mike, he's not getting along with his wife right now.
他向观众公开谈论这件事。
Talks about that openly with his chat.
她不希望他在这里直播。
She doesn't want him here streaming.
她担心他会陷入某种私刑暴力的境地。
She thinks he could get himself into some kind of vigilante violence situation.
迈克说，那不是我。
Mike is like, that's not me.
聊天室里的人都很支持。
And the chat is supportive.
他们提出问题。
They ask questions.
他们谈论自己的生活。
They talk about their lives.
迈克正在大声念出评论。
Mike's reading the comments out loud.
我当时正在不断下沉。
I was spiraling in the drain.
我接受了家人的大力帮助，但我寻求了帮助。
I took a big family push, but I got help.
我还在。
I'm still here.
仍然会经历一些非常艰难的时刻，但我还在。
Still have some very rough times, but I'm I'm still here.
太棒了，兄弟。
That's awesome, man.
我看到聊天里有人这么说。
I see that's in the chat.
有些主播非常致力于记录，比如迈克。
Some streamers are very committed to documenting, like Mike.
有些人来这里是为了和对方争论。
Some people come here to argue with the other side.
有些人只是为了追求刺激，就像一位叫莫伊的主播告诉我，他曾经对甲基苯丙胺上瘾，但现在却对直播上瘾了。
Some are in it for the thrill of it, like a streamer named Moe told me he used to be addicted to meth, but now he's addicted to streaming.
有些人是喷子。
Some people are trolls.
他们在这里煽动抗议者做出一些让自身显得愚蠢或暴力的行为。
They're here to rile the protesters up into doing something that makes them look dumb or violent.
但当你观看这些人的直播时，有一件非常有趣的事情发生了：他们常常试图证明抗议者才是暴力的根源。
Something fascinating that happens though when you're watching those guys is, lots of times they're trying to prove that the protesters are the cause of the violence.
但事实上，当你仔细观看录像时，通常会发现录像揭示的恰恰相反。
But in fact, when you look at the footage, often what the footage reveals is exactly the opposite.
录像清楚地显示，如果没有这些主播在场，某些暴力行为根本不会发生。
It shows clearly that some of the violence would not be happening at all if the streamers weren't there.
这里有一个我们当晚经历的例子。
Here's an example from the night that we were there.
在我们到达之前，这两个人——瑞安和卡姆——正在拍摄自己，试图闯入抗议者在人行道上搭建的帐篷，那里是他们的据点。
Before we got there, these guys Ryan and Cam were filming themselves, tried to come into this canopy tent the protesters set up on the sidewalk as a sort of home base.
一个戴着黑色头盔、上面贴着红色无政府主义贴纸的抗议者挡在了他们面前。
A protester in a black helmet with a red anarchist sticker on it steps in front of them.
嘿，伙计们。
Hey, guys.
卡姆，别吵了。
No chiseloud in Cam.
别快拍。
No fast chiseloud.
幸好我不是法西斯。
Good thing I'm not a fascist.
啊
A
一名穿着毛茸茸的骷髅服的抗议者瞪着他们。
protester in a fuzzy skeleton suit glares at them.
她说自己正在接受治疗，对着围绕着她的手机说道。
I'm getting medical treatment, she says, to the phones looming over her.
你治的是什么？
What are you getting treated for?
疱疹？
Herpes?
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
然后，瑞安和一些主播们集体冲进帐篷，摆出一副‘我要呼气、我要吹倒你的房子’的架势，意在表明这是一条公共人行道——而事实确实如此。
And then in a sort of I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down move, Ryan and some streamers just bust through the tent as a group to make the point that this is a public sidewalk, which it is.
他们是对的。
They are correct.
但一个穿着鲨鱼睡衣的男子差点被撞倒在地。
But a guy in shark pajamas is almost knocked to the ground.
当所有人从帐篷里涌出来时，你听到抗议者大喊袭击，而瑞安说他被喷了胡椒喷雾，并往脸上泼水。
As everyone spills out of the tent altogether, you hear the protesters cry assault, and Ryan says he got maced and pours water on his face.
我明白了。
I got it.
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
我们走。
We go.
后来，瑞安从抗议者的物资中拿了一台吹叶机，沿着街道推着走。
Later, Ryan took a leaf blower from the protesters' supplies and moved it down the street.
我问他正在做什么。
I asked him about what he was doing.
我的意思是，他这么做的目的是什么？
Like, what's the idea behind what he's even doing?
你拿了一台吹叶机？
You took a leaf blower?
是的。
Yeah.
我抓起那台吹叶机。
I grabbed I grabbed the leaf blower.
好的。
Okay.
我把它搬到了下面50英尺的地方。
And I moved it 50 feet down here.
好的。
Okay.
所以你就把它搬了
So you just moved it
到呃，我只是做了
into Oh, I I just did
就是为了惹恼他们。
it to piss them off.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
这正是我想说的。
That's what I'm saying.
瑞安是前特朗普竞选团队成员，也是前大学橄榄球运动员。
Ryan's a former Trump campaign guy and a former college football player.
他身材高大魁梧。
He's big and broad.
瑞安在这里有前科。
Ryan has a track record here.
波特兰警方记录显示，他曾报告自己遭到抗议者的袭击。
The Portland police have noted that he reported he'd been attacked by protesters.
他曾被十五名以上抗议者包围，随后在倒地时被喷了辣椒水。
He was surrounded by more than 15 of them and then pepper sprayed while on the ground one time.
警方还看到他，quote，挑衅抗议者直至被袭击，end quote。
And the police have also seen him, quote, antagonizing the protesters until assaulted, end quote.
他的前任简介上写着：右翼挑衅者。
His ex bio reads, right wing provocateur.
比如，有个家伙说：‘去你的，法西斯。’
For example, some guy goes, oh, f you fascist.
我就会说：‘真的吗？’
I'm like, oh, seriously?
然后我会走到他们面前，说：‘你想要什么？’
And I'll walk up in their face and get and say, what do you want?
接着他们会推我，我也会推回去，他们就会倒在地上
And then they'll push me, and I'll push them right back, and they fall to
地上。
the ground.
这很有挑衅性。
That's provocative.
然后当然。
And then Sure.
这会导致暴力。
That leads to violence.
不过整个夏天都没出过门。
Night out of entire summer though.
所以，尽管你自称是挑衅者，你并不认为自己真的在挑衅他们？
So you don't think even though it you call yourself a provocateur, you don't think you're really provoking them?
通过我的身体动作，没有。
With my my physical actions, no.
但我的存在，是的。
But my presence, yes.
好吧。
Okay.
嗯。
Yeah.
这样做的目的是让他们做出反应，从而证明他们具有暴力倾向吗？
And is the point of that in order to make them react so that you can prove your point that they are violent?
目的是证明他们以为自己拥有这座城市。
It's to prove my point that they they think they own the city.
我的目的就是打破他们的叙事，你知道的，他们以为自己可以为所欲为。
And my point I do it to, you know, to take away their narrative that, you know, they can do whatever they want.
这正是许多主播和右翼意见领袖的真实感受。
This is precisely, exactly how many of the streamers and right wing influencers feel.
即使特朗普在任，他们在对待左翼和执法上也存在双重标准。
That even if Trump is in office, there's a double standard when it comes to the left and enforcement.
一月六日的抗议者遭到了镇压，而这些抗议者却没有。
The January 6 protesters were cracked down on, and these protesters are not.
所以，是的，他们可能会走到抗议者面前挑衅或拍摄他们。
So, yeah, they might get in a protesters face and taunt them or film them.
如果抗议者以暴力回应，那只是暴露了他们的真实面目。
If the protester responds with aggression, well, that's just revealing who they are.
这公平合理。
It's fair game.
我想稍微转个话题，谈谈警察。
I wanna pivot for a moment to say something about the cops.
警察是主播们愤怒的焦点。
The cops are a great focus of the streamers' ire.
他们认为警察与抗议者串通一气。
They think the cops are in league with the protesters.
他们称警察为‘警匪’。
They call them cop tifa.
他们说警察对抗议者的逮捕力度不够。
Say, they don't arrest the protesters enough.
抗议者会对此持不同意见。
The protesters would disagree.
但我们当晚在场时，所有人都认为这是一个重大转折点。
The night we were there though, everyone agrees was a big turning point.
看起来警察正在加强镇压。
It seemed the cops were cracking down.
事实上，在苏珊和我到达这里的几个小时前，有三十名警察突袭了抗议者的帐篷，要求拆除它。
In fact, hours before Susan and I showed up here, 30 of them had descended on the protesters tent and demanded its removal.
这个帐篷之前也被清过，但从未像这样过。
The tent had been cleared before, but not like this.
这次的警告比平时少得多，而且警察人数太多了。
This time, there was less warning than usual, and there was just so many police.
总的来说，人们说突然间出现了大量警察，巡逻所有地方并开罚单。
In general, people said there were a lot more police all of a sudden, patrolling everything and issuing citations.
而造成这一切的原因，直播主们会告诉你。
And what made this happen, the streamers will tell you.
很大一部分原因在于这段视频，当然，来自十月初。
A lot of it comes down to this one video, of course, from early October.
实际上，这是瑞安拍摄的一段视频，主角是这里最著名的福克斯常客——尼克·索特。
A video from Ryan, actually, featuring the most known Fox ubiquitous guy down here, Nick Sorter.
他与抗议者发生了冲突。
He got into a scuffle with protesters.
他当时正在拍摄他们。
He was filming them.
其中一人开始对他大喊，然后用雨伞推了他。
One of them started yelling at him and then pushed him with an umbrella.
我要把你干趴下。
I will fuck your ass up.
滚开。
Get out of here.
然后人群聚集起来，他被推到了一个坑里。
Then a crowd formed and he got pushed into this hole.
那更像是一个被草覆盖的地面大凹陷。
It's more like a huge dip in the ground covered in grass.
这叫生物滞留池。
It's called a bioswale.
用于雨水排放。
It's for rain runoff.
派对开始变味了。
Party's starting to swale.
两名抗议者和尼克因扰乱秩序被逮捕。
Two of the protesters and Nick were arrested for disorderly conduct.
尼克在监狱里过了一夜。
Nick spent the night in jail.
唐纳德·特朗普给他发短信说：我们全力支持你。
Donald Trump texted him, we are behind you 100%.
基本上，要像塔帕克一样昂首挺胸。
Basically, keep your head up like he was Tupac.
尼克最终被释放，未被指控任何罪名。
Nick ended up released and not charged with anything.
紧接着，司法部民权司对波特兰警方的‘观点歧视’行为展开了调查。
Immediately afterward, the Department of Justice, the civil rights division, opened an investigation into, quote, viewpoint discrimination by the Portland police.
尼克本人已启动对警方提起1000万美元诉讼的程序，指控其系统性歧视保守派，并称该部门充斥着安提法分子。
Nick himself has started the process to sue the police department for $10,000,000 alleging systemic bias against conservatives, saying the department was riddled with Antifa.
逮捕六周后，尼克和其他网红在白宫参加了圆桌会议。
Sixties after the arrest, Nick and the other influencers were at the White House doing that roundtable.
是的。
Yes.
总统承诺派遣国民警卫队进入波特兰镇压这一街区，因为当地警察没有采取行动。
Anding the president's promise to send the National Guard into Portland to police this block because the police were not.
这引起了右翼媒体的大量报道，这也是为什么直播主们认为警察今晚的行为有所不同。
And that got a ton of coverage on right wing media, and that's why the streamers think the cops are acting differently tonight.
其中一些人，包括来自爱达荷州的退伍军人迈克，认为警察害怕这种曝光。
Some of them, including Mike, the vet from Idaho, think the cops are scared of all this exposure.
所有这些直播主来到这里，加上由此积累的压力，以及福克斯新闻对他们的报道，使得警方必须执法，而且
All the streamers coming down here, just the pressure that's been built from it and, you know, Fox News talking about them, they have to enforce the law and it
必须公平对待。
has to be equally.
所以这带来了
So it's brought it
确实彻底改变了现状。
definitely definitely changed things.
但为什么要相信迈克的话呢？
But why take Mike's word for it?
猜猜谁在爱国者周末出现了？
Guess who showed up for Patriots weekend?
就是尼克·索特本人。
It's Nick Sorter himself.
他就在这里。
He's right here.
你觉得
What do you
你怎么看，尼克？
think, Nick?
你觉得像你经历的这种事，改变了警察的行为吗？
Do you think that, like, stuff like what happened to you changed what the police were doing?
我的意思是，这确实引起了全国对这个问题的关注。
I mean, it sort of brought the, it brought nationwide attention to the issue.
显然，我的本意是引起全国对这个问题的关注，但不是以那种方式。
Obviously, that, my intent was to bring nationwide attention to the issue, but not in that manner.
不是以被逮捕的方式。
Not in the manner of getting arrested.
以被逮捕的方式。
In the manner of being arrested.
但我在被捕前三小时上了劳拉·英格拉汉姆的节目。
But was on Laura Ingraham's show, I guess, three hours before I was arrested.
我刚做完那个采访，事情还新鲜，然后就在那个周四晚上被捕了，接下来整个周五都在不间断地报道我的逮捕事件。
The fact that I had just done that hit and it was fresh, and then I was arrested on that Thursday night, and then that whole Friday was just nonstop coverage of of the arrest.
从那以后，他们几乎每天晚上的节目里都会至少有一个环节谈论这件事。
Ever since then, I mean, they've pretty much been talking about it in at least one segment of each show every night.
所以，从那以后，我大概上了六七次福克斯电视台的黄金时段节目。
So, I mean, I've done probably six or seven primetime Fox hits since then.
站在这满是彩带的街区里，我想指出，这正是我的梦想。
Standing here on this block full of streamers, I just wanna point out this is the dream.
全程报道，使用这些家伙拍摄并打上他们标识的视频素材。
Saturation coverage with footage these guys filmed stamped with their handles.
无论如何，在尼克因被捕获得大量关注之后，包括司法部对波特兰警方展开的调查，这些直播者觉得警察对示威者执法更严格了，比如清拆帐篷之类的。
Anyway, after all the attention Nick got for his arrest, including the Department of Justice investigation into the Portland police, it seemed to the streamers that the cops were policing the protesters more strictly, like clearing the tent and everything.
所以我们问了警察：直播者们的看法对吗？
So we asked the police, were the streamers right?
在尼克被捕后，警方的执法方式有变化吗？
Were they policing differently after Nick's sorter?
他们回应说，执法确实更多了，但原因不同。
And they responded they were doing more enforcement, but for a different reason.
警方表示："如果有什么变化，那是因为人群的行为变了。"
Quote, if there was any change, it was in the crowd's behavior.
我们开始看到大量直播者涌入，这些人只是想从这场局势中获利。
We began to see an influx of streamers, the people who wanna monetize this situation.
以下仍是警方的原话。
Still quoting the police here.
他们继续说道。
They went on.
现场直播者和网红数量的增加，营造了一种紧张和对抗加剧的氛围。
The increase in the number of live streamers and personalities in the area contributed to an environment where tension and confrontation escalated.
这些许多人制作的内容面向那些奖励激烈与冲突的观众，有时会放大动荡局势。
Many of these individuals were creating content for audiences that reward intensity and conflict, which can sometimes amplify volatile situations.
换句话说，直播者促使抗议者更加激进，而警察则对双方都采取了更强硬的措施。
In other words, the live streamers made the protesters act up and the police cracked down on both of them.
但这绝对不是直播者对事情的理解方式。
That is definitely not how the streamers interpreted things.
当然，在这个夜晚，他们只是觉得自己赢了。
On this night, certainly, they just thought they were winning.
现在已经是午夜过后。
It's after midnight now.
直播者们似乎情绪高涨。
The streamers seem to be on a high.
他们看到警察清除了抗议者的帐篷。
They've seen the cops clear the protesters' tent.
警察似乎在听他们的。
The cops seem to be listening to them.
他们充满了我们赢了的肾上腺素。
They're filled with this we're winning adrenaline.
他们想做点什么。
They wanna do something.
于是他们开始沿着街道游行，朝那栋公寓走去。
So they start this march down the street towards this apartment.
大约三十人左右，举着手机游行，大喊着某人的名字。
Something like 30 odd people marching with their phones aloft, yelling someone's name.
钱德勒。
Chandler.
钱德勒。
Chandler.
钱德勒。
Chandler.
他们打开了这人公寓的门。
They open the door to this guy's apartment.
门就这么开了，这景象令人震惊，还带着一丝恐怖。
It just opens, which is shocking to see and feels a little scary.
难道有人会被拖出去，像足球流氓那样被打吗？
Like, is someone gonna get dragged out and beat up in some soccer hooligan y way?
钱德勒。
Chandler.
有人在家吗？
Is anybody home?
钱德勒。
Chandler.
我发现自己站在查德·卡顿旁边，就是那个之前高喊着被窃取的荣誉、穿着防弹背心的人。
I find myself next to Chad Caton, the guy in a bulletproof vest who was yelling about stolen valor before.
我们离公寓门只有几英尺远。
We're just a few feet back from the apartment door.
我们说话的时候他正在直播，向来都是这样。
He's streaming as we're talking, which is always how it is.
这里发生了什么？
What's going on here?
所以钱德勒一直在这里运作反法西斯组织。
So Chandler has been operating the antifa out of here.
他们一直控制着这个街区，而这些爱国者已经忍无可忍。
They've been running this neighborhood, and these patriots have had enough.
他们正在夺回自己的街道，这里一直是钱德勒的地盘，他们曾在这里袭击爱国者并逃了进来。
They're taking back their streets, this has been Chandler's this is where they have attacked patriots and ran in here.
这是一处安全屋，也是安提法在玫瑰城出没的地方。
This is a safe house, and this is where Antifa hangs out here in Rose City.
很多这类说法其实并非事实，更多是查德对事情的解读，其他人会强烈反对。
A lot of this stuff turns out not to be actual fact, but more like Chad's interpretation of things, which others would strongly disagree with.
但他说话的方式，就像大多数主播和网红谈论钱德勒的公寓一样，称那是安提法总部。
But he is speaking the way most streamers and influencers would about Chandler's apartment, that is Antifa headquarters.
另一位主播尼克·谢里尔跑向钱德勒。
Another streamer, Nick Shirley, runs up to Chad.
嘿，老兄。
Yo, man.
怎么了？
What's going on?
要我的口罩吗？
Do want my mask?
钱德勒向他和他的观众复述了他刚才告诉我的那些并不完全属实的内容。
Chad catches him and his viewers up with the not exactly true things that he told me.
他们只是让钱德勒知道，欺凌结束了，他们正在夺回街道。
They're just letting Chandler know that that the bullying's done, and they're taking back the streets.
但没错。
But yeah.
这是玫瑰城总部。
This is Rose City Headquarters.
这是一间店面，因为他是个富二代，这里就是他们举办毛茸茸派对的地方，
It's a storefront because he's a trust fund baby, and this is where they have their furry parties and
还有那些。
all that.
真的吗？
Really?
嗯。
Mhmm.
我来澄清一下。
I'll just clarify.
这可不是一间店面。
This is not a storefront.
这也不是玫瑰城安提法的总部。
It's not the headquarters of Rose City Antifa.
钱德勒不是富二代，而且这里根本没有什么毛茸茸派对。
Chandler isn't a trust fund baby, and there don't seem to be any furry parties here, actually.
但不管怎样
But anyway
所以这里就是抗法组织做什么的地方？
So this is the spot where Antifa what?
他们只是他们
They just they're
这是
This is
下面的总部。
the Home base down here.
是的。
Yeah.
他们就藏在这里。
This is where they hide.
这是安全屋，被称为安全屋。
This is the safe house, known as a safe house.
你是法西斯吗？
Are you a fascist?
你是法西斯吗？
Are you a fascist?
此时，尼克接替查德，为他的直播做解说。
At this point, Nick takes over from Chad, narrating for his livestream.
他认识钱德勒。
He knows Chandler.
很多观看他直播的人认识钱德勒。
A lot of the people watching his stream know Chandler.
经常关注这里波特兰场景的常客都知道他是谁。
Any regulars who tune into the Portland scene down here know who he is.
说实话，当你和他交谈、聊天时，他看起来是个非常普通的人，但他却是波特兰这一地区反法西斯运动的最知名人物。
He's honestly he seems like a very he's like a very normal person when you talk to him and have conversations, but he has been the most well known person for being the head of Antifa here in this part of Portland, Oregon.
那么，现在人们在他家外面做什么？
So what are people doing outside his house right now?
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，今天安提法实际上已经被击败了，因为他们的营地被拆除了。
Well, Antifa's kind of been defeated today as they took down his encampment.
所以我认为人们想看看钱德勒会有什么反应，如果他打算采取什么行动的话。
So I think people wanna see what Chandler had to say if he was gonna do anything about it.
钱德勒探出头来。
Chandler pokes his head out the door.
他看起来像个刚从床上爬起来的睡眼惺忪、头发凌乱的金发大学生。
He looks like a sleepy, tousled, blonde college kid who just rolled out of bed.
他对外面成群大喊大叫的人群和手机完全无动于衷。
He seems completely unfazed by the mass of shouting people and phones just outside his house.
他的几个朋友——穿着毛茸茸的骷髅服装的抗议者、另一个戴着凯菲爾和护目镜的，还有几个全黑装扮的人——围在他周围。
A few of his friends, the protester in the fuzzy skeleton suit, another in a kefir and goggles, a couple in all black, are hovering around him.
钱德勒站在敞开的门口中央，开始向一群高喊、愤怒、兴奋而胜利的人群讲话。
Chandler stands in the middle of the open door and starts addressing the group of chanting, angry, excited, victorious people.
让咱们工人阶级把责任归咎于当权者，这完全符合当权者的利益。
It is entirely to the advantage of the powerful to have us, the working class, blame the powerful.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
听到这个年轻人说出如此奥逊·威尔斯式的嗓音，我也感到非常惊讶。
It is also very surprising to me to hear this Orson Welles type voice come out of this young person's mouth.
统治阶级完全有理由让你去责怪无权者，责怪移民，责怪左派，责怪右派，责怪农村农民，责怪城市自由派，责怪保守派。
It is entirely to the advantage of the ruling class to convince you to blame the powerless, to blame the immigrants, to blame the left, to blame the right, to blame the rural farmers, to blame the liberals in the city, to blame the conservatives.
对吧？
Right?
他周围环绕着彩带和手机，有些人只是默默拍摄，但很多人却在彼此大喊大叫、取笑他。
He's ringed by streamers and phones, some of whom are just filming without comment, but a lot of whom are yelling at each other and teasing him.
由于钱德勒的说话方式，整个场景仿佛来自另一个时代，就像他站在真正的讲台上，而穿着圆顶礼帽的人们正站在鹅卵石街道上对他嘘声四起、扔番茄。
Because of the way Chandler talks, the whole thing feels just of another era, as though he's on a literal soapbox and people in bowler hats are on a cobblestone street booing and throwing tomatoes at him.
但到处都是晃动的手机，人们在他讲话时一边叙述一边争论。
But it's just phones bobbing everywhere, and people narrating and arguing while he's talking.
所以当你的食品券很快用完，当你挨饿时，记住，是那些有权势的人。
So when your SNAP benefits run out soon, when you go hungry, remember, it is the powerful.
不是穷人。
It is not the poor.
是民主党。
It is the Democrats.
是共和党。
It is the Republicans.
是统治阶级。
It is the ruling class.
是富人。
It is the rich.
是人民。
It is the people.
我们的经济运作方式，这说得通吗？
What our economy does, does that make sense?
他们拥有我们的工业。
They own our industry.
他们拥有我们该死的住房。
They own our fucking housing.
他们拥有你该死的生命时光。
They own the hours of your fucking life.
谢谢，主席。
Thank you, chairman.
没有左右之分。
There is no left and right.
只有富有和贫穷。
There is only rich and poor.
只有有权势和无权势。
There is only powerful and powerless.
你属于无权无势的一群人。
You are among the powerless.
我们属于无权无势的一群人。
We are among the powerless.
USS。
USS.
USS。
USS.
USS。
USS.
人们开始变得不安，不确定接下来该做什么，因为这种钱德勒式的宣泄似乎已经过时了。
People are starting to get restless, like, unsure what to do next since this Chandler catharsis seems to be getting old.
钱德勒在昨晚整晚试图吞掉我们的关键利益后，仍然在庇护恐怖分子。
Chandler is still harboring terrorists after trying to gobble our knobs all night last night.
最终，人们开始逐渐离开钱德勒的家。
Eventually, people do start wandering away from Chandler's house.
卡林很兴奋。
Carlin is giddy.
不过有趣吗？
Is it fun though?
是的。
Yeah.
非常有趣。
It's a ton of fun.
你没觉得开心吗？
Aren't you having fun?
那不是挺有趣的吗？
Wasn't that fun?
开心不是这个词，但你知道的，我在等点什么发生，而它确实发生了。
Fun is not the word, but, like, you know, I'm looking for something to happen, and it was happening.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一次肾上腺素激增。
It's an adrenaline rush.
好的。
Alright.
给你。
Here you go.
这就像这种事不是每天都会发生的。
It's like this isn't this this doesn't happen every day.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
但确实会。
But it does
你们看起来就像是，像
seem like that you guys are, like,
每天都在制造这种氛围。
making it happen every day.
是的。
Yeah.
看起来人们每天都在制造这种氛围。
It seems like people are making it happen every day.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我把我的名片给了那个在抗议活动中以青蛙装扮出名的家伙。
I give my business card to the guy who's famous for dressing as a frog at these protests.
他当时在当门卫。
He was acting as a bouncer.
你能把这个交给他吗？
Can you just give this to him?
钱德勒场景的结尾是一群彩带爱好者在拍合照
The scene at Chandler's ends with a bunch of streamers taking group photos
了
of
他们同时用手机自拍。
themselves simultaneously with their phones.
干得好，孩子们。
Good job, boys and girls.
你们是
You are
都是好孩子。
all good kids.
天哪。
Oh my god.
有三十个人左右。
It's like 30 people.
然后他们中的一些人把手机凑近，向在线的观众深情告别。
Then some of them bring their phones close and bid fond farewells to their viewers online.
我明天见，各位。
I'll see you guys tomorrow.
我爱你们所有人。
I love you guys.
我们今晚赢了，宝贝。
We won tonight, baby.
我们赢了。
We won.
他们现在正在这么做，
They we're doing it right now,
所以我要去帮忙。
so I'm gonna help.
我爱你们所有人。
I love you guys.
我回家后会发一条帖子。
I'll I'll I'll make a post when I get home.
全世界是一个舞台，所有的男男女女不过是演员。
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.
你难免觉得这一切都如此做作和荒谬，就连那些令人恐惧的时刻，也不过是他们为取悦社交媒体上的观众而编造的戏剧的一部分。
You can't help feeling like this is so performative and absurd that even the menacing moments are just part of a drama they invented to keep whoever's watching on social media entertained.
这太卡通化了。
It's cartoonish.
这太夸张了。
It's over the top.
在这个街区寻找红色的反法西斯分子，可能意味着一个穿着青蛙服装的随机ICE抗议者。
And the search for red antifa on this block can mean a random ICE protester in a frog costume.
也可能意味着那个用旗杆击打右翼影响者后逃跑的人。
It can mean that person who hit a right wing influencer with a flagpole and then ran away.
但在这里，‘反法西斯’这个词在美国如今还意味着什么，部分原因在于主播们讲述的关于波特兰的故事。
But here's what else the word Antifa now means in America, partly because of the story the streamers are telling about Portland.
现在正发生着一种巨大的混淆。
There's a great smooshing that's happening now.
抗议就意味着安提法。
Protest means Antifa.
安提法就意味着暴力。
Antifa means violence.
安提法无处不在、组织严密、网络化、资金充足，应与美国人熟知的那些更著名的外国恐怖组织一同出现在精彩片段中。
And Antifa is rampant, organized, networked, well funded, and belongs in the sizzle reel with the much more famous foreign terrorist groups that Americans all know.
还记得国土安全部部长克里斯蒂·诺姆在白宫与流媒体主播们的圆桌会议吗？
Remember DHS head Kristi Noem at the White House roundtable with the streamers.
这个安提法网络与MS-13、TDA、ISIS、真主党、哈马斯一样，都同样复杂精密。
This network of Antifa is just as sophisticated as MS thirteen, as TDA, as ISIS, as Hezbollah, as Hamas, as all of them.
让我们进入安提法的据点，亲自看看，并与所谓的安提法头目谈谈。
So let's go inside the Antifa safe house, see for ourselves, and talk to the head of Antifa, so called.
广告之后，青蛙男带我们进去。
After the break, the frog guy gets us in.
佐伊·蔡斯。
Zoe Chase.
接下来，钱德勒的公寓。
Coming up, Chandler's apartment.
你能再兴奋一点吗？
Could you be any more excited?
马上就开始。
That's in a minute.
芝加哥布巴电台，节目继续。
Chicago Bubba Radio when our program continues.
这是艾拉·格拉斯的《美国生活》。
This is American Life from Ira Glass.
今天的节目，幕后制作。
Today's show, the making of.
我们将深入幕后，看看那些正在创作关于波特兰故事的人，这个故事正推动着联邦调查局、司法部、财政部、国税局和国土安全部的全国性打击行动。
We're taking a look behind the scenes at the people who are creating a story about Portland that's fueling a national crackdown by the FBI, the Justice Department, Treasury, the IRS, DHS.
我们已进入节目第二幕，第二幕，进入安全屋。
We've arrived at act two of our program, act two, inside the safe house.
好的。
Okay.
所以，我们上一次说到，我们的制作人佐伊·蔡斯和苏珊娜·加伯正试图真正见到所谓的反法西斯领袖。
So where we left off, our producers, Zoe Chase and Suzanne Gabber, were trying to actually meet the so called leader of Antifa.
几天后，我们回到他家门口继续我们的故事。
We pick up our story a couple nights later outside his door.
我们到了。
We've arrived.
哦，我们到了。
Oh, we're here.
反法西斯安全屋。
The Antifa safe house.
你准备好进去了吗？
You ready to go in here?
我们被迎了进去，第一眼看到的就是门上贴着的告示。
We're welcomed in, and the first thing we see is this sign that's posted right in front of the door.
三台摄像机和第二修正案。
Three cameras and the second amendment.
那是谎言。
That's a lie.
求你了，那是什么意思？
Please, so what does it mean?
它本意是想暗示这里有三台摄像机，而且我有枪，但我一样都没有。
It's it's it's supposed to imply that there are three cameras and also that I have a gun, but I have neither of those things.
这里没有摄像机，我也没有枪。
There are no cameras in here, and I don't have a gun.
那你为什么要贴这个？
So why did you put it up?
为了阻止人们进来，你知道的，嗯。
To dissuade people from walking in and, you know Yeah.
做些奇怪又愚蠢的事。
Doing weird dumb stuff.
只是一个道具。
Just a prop.
没有真正的枪，就像这里其他很多东西一样。
No real guns like so much else around here.
所以钱德勒的公寓，既像一个社会主义者的安全屋，又像一个二十多岁独居男子的住所。
So Chandler's apartment, it both looks like a safe house for a socialist and a dude living alone in his twenties.
两把椅子，一张桌子，一个小厨房。
Two chairs, one desk, kitchenette.
他给我们提供了茶和量杯。
He offered us tea and measuring cups.
两个书架，上面有科幻小说：《银河系漫游指南》、《华氏451》、奥威尔、冯内古特，但也有罗莎·卢森堡的全集、瑞典社会民主的兴衰、心理学书籍。
Two bookshelves, science fiction, Hitchhiker's Guide, Fahrenheit four fifty one, Orwell, Vonnegut, but also the complete works of Rosa Luxemburg, the rise and fall of Swedish social democracy, psychology books.
钱德勒说，他原本计划在大学辍学前从事认知行为科学的研究。
Chandler said he'd been planning to do cognitive behavioral science before he dropped out of college.
我叫钱德勒·佩蒂。
My name is Chandler Patey.
我是个木匠，我的公寓就在ICE旁边，我是个活动家和抗议者。
I'm a carpenter, and I guess I have an apartment that is right next to ICE, and I am an activist and protester.
我不能说自己是这次抗议的组织者，但我通常会组织其他活动，因为这次根本没有组织。
And I can't call myself an organizer for this protest, but I do usually organize outside of this event because there's no organization on this one.
好的。
Okay.
所以你是安提法的领导人吗？
So are you the leader of Antifa?
不幸的是不是，或者说幸运的是不是，因为首先，很明显，这根本说不通。
Unfortunately not or rather fortunately not because first of all, obviously, I mean, you know, that doesn't make any sense.
安提法不是一个组织。
Antifa is not an organization.
有一些组织自称为反法西斯主义的。
There are organizations that identify themselves as anti fascist.
对吧？
Right?
但有一些组织自称是社会主义者或保守派，而他们并不代表整个群体。
But there are organizations that identify themselves as socialist or conservative, and they aren't the entirety of that thing.
所以，说你是保守主义的领袖，或者说你是社会主义的领袖，根本没有意义。
So it just doesn't make any sense to say that you are the leader of conservatism or that you are the leader of socialism.
对吧？
Right?
因为这是一种意识形态。
Because it's it's an ideology.
你不可能成为一种意识形态的领袖。
You can't be the leader of an ideology.
这说不通。
That doesn't make sense.
我认为有必要尽可能清楚地说明这个问题：什么是安提法？
I think it's important to be as clear as I can about this question, what is Antifa?
有一些组织的名称中包含‘安提法’这个词。
There are organizations with the word Antifa in their name.
钢铁城反法西斯联盟、亚特兰大反法西斯者。
Steel City Antifascist League, Atlanta Antifascists.
其中一个著名的来自波特兰，玫瑰城反法西斯。
One is famously from Portland, Rose City Antifa.
它有一个网站。
It has a website.
它有一面旗帜。
It has a flag.
但认为所有这些不同的反法西斯团体或无政府主义团体都通过资金链和领导层相互连接，这种说法没有任何公开证据支持。
But the idea that all these different Antifa groups or anarchist groups are connected with a funding stream and a leadership, There's no public evidence that's true.
这是特朗普第一任期内联邦调查局的结论。
That was the conclusion of the FBI during the first Trump administration.
特朗普前联邦调查局局长曾明确表示，美国境内存在一些自称为反法西斯的暴力无政府主义极端分子。
Trump's former FBI director famously said there are violent anarchist extremists who identify as Antifa in country.
但他指出，反法西斯是一种意识形态，而不是联邦调查局可以针对的组织。
But he said it was an ideology, not an organization that the FBI could target.
他称他们为自我激进的孤立行动者。
Self radicalized lone actors, he called them.
当前的特朗普政府，即第二个任期，显然采取了完全不同的方向。
The current Trump administration, the second one, has obviously gone in a very different direction.
因此，在这种环境下，你现在可能不想公开表明自己是安提法成员或安提法领袖。
So in this environment, you probably wouldn't wanna be publicly identified as Antifa or the leader of Antifa right now.
那么，为什么人们称你为安提法的领袖呢？
So why are people calling you the leader of Antifa?
因为有个叫维利·雷的蠢货是个主播。
Because there's this this idiot named Velli Ray who's a streamer.
他非常愚蠢，我曾经真的努力对他保持友善，但他就是如此恶毒和愚蠢。
He's very dumb, and I, like, I tried really hard to be nice to him for a long time, but he is just, like, he's just so malicious and stupid.
所以他只是为了博眼球而编造故事，会夸大发生的事件，有时甚至会污蔑我们。
So he just, like, makes stuff up to be sensational, you know, and he'll just, like, try and overdramatize the things that happened, and sometimes that would include vilifying us.
我问过维利这件事，他说他拍摄钱德勒已经六个月半了，并且100%坚持他的说法。
I asked Velli about this, and he said he's been filming Chandler for six and a half months, and he stands by his claim about him 100%.
我觉得维利·雷就像是钱德勒的莫里亚蒂。
I'd say Velli Ray is like Chandler's Moriarty.
他的莱克斯·卢瑟，他的小丑。
His Lex Luther, his Joker.
但钱德勒有太多宿敌了，很难挑出一个来。
Except Chandler has so many nemeses, it's sort of hard to pick.
不管怎样，这是几周前维利·雷的直播。
Anyway, here's Belly Ray's stream from a few weeks ago.
我关注着钱德勒。
I'm following Chandler.
抱歉，是维利·雷。
Belly Ray, I'm sorry.
我搞错了钱德勒，我爱你。
A I different Chandler, I love you.
钱德勒。
Chandler.
钱德勒，别走。
Chandler, don't go.
钱德勒。
Chandler.
贝利·雷的聊天室里有人发帖说，你现在就像《欲望号街车》里的马龙·白兰度。
Someone in Belly Ray's chat posted, you're like Brando in Streetcar Named Desire right now.
钱德勒。
Chandler.
钱德勒，你刚刚走了一个完整的圈。
Chandler, you just walked in a full circle.
因为我刚才正想离你远点，贝利·雷。
Because I was trying to walk away from you, Belly Ray.
走了一个完整的圈。
Walked in a full circle.
最初，当贝利·雷出现时，钱德勒就会做他常做的事。
Initially, when Velli Ray came around, Chandler would do the thing that he does.
他主动找他谈话，大谈政治腐败和资本主义。
He talked to him, speechifying about political corruption and capitalism, unbidden.
钱德勒说，有那么一刻，贝利开始叫他反法西斯领袖。
And Chandler says at some point, Belly just started calling him the leader of Antifa.
是他先开始的，然后其他人也跟着重复，因为这样能带来点击量。
He started it, and then other people started repeating it because it got them clicks.
对吧？
Right?
随着这种情况不断发生，他们发现我就住在这个所谓的反法西斯安全屋附近，于是编出了各种离奇的粉丝小说，只要在标题里加上‘反法西斯领袖’这几个字，点击量就更高。
And then as it as that kept happening, and then they found out that I live right here in the so called Antifa safe house, and then they they came up with all sorts of weird, fan fiction stories that were got more clicks if you just say leader of Antifa in them.
所以，其实是不是我根本不重要。
So, like, it didn't matter that it was me.
他们只是想要‘反法西斯领袖’这个词。
They just wanted that word.
你是个主角。
You're a main character.
他们需要你作为抗议故事中的主角。
They needed as you were a main character in the story of the protest.
没错。
That's true.
更容易给某件事赋予一个面孔，以获得更多点击量。
It is easier to to, like, give give a face to something to get more clicks.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
这听起来可能很讽刺，但我说的是认真的。
This is gonna sound facetious, but it's not.
那有什么真正让人感到受捧的地方吗？
Was there anything actually flattering about that?
有一点。
A little bit.
一开始，我和朋友们都觉得这像个笑话，特别好笑，但后来我们意识到，哦，这其实一点都不好笑了。
It was like it was like a joke that my friends and I like, we all thought it was hilarious at first, and then we realized that, oh, that's actually not funny anymore.
所以现在，如果我的朋友或者其他抗议者还拿这个开玩笑，我就会真的生气，因为我觉得：别再说这个了。
And so now I, like, I actually, like, get mad at my friends or other protesters in general if they, like, even joke about it anymore because it's like, stop saying that.
这真的真的很烦人。
That's, like, really, really annoying.
如果这个笑话继续流传下去，我会显得特别自大。
It makes me look super conceited if, like, that joke continues.
对吧？
Right?
当然，对这个笑话感到生气的另一个原因是，如果那些能直接联系白宫和FBI局长的人称你为安提法的领袖，这可能会很危险。
The other reason to get mad at this joke, of course, is that it seems it'd be dangerous to be called the leader of Antifa by people who have a direct line to the White House and the director of the FBI.
我惊讶的是FBI怎么还没来找过你。
I'm surprised the FBI hasn't been here already.
或者他们已经来过了？
Or have they?
我的意思是，他们有时候会在移民与海关执法局那里。
I mean, they're they're at ICE sometimes.
或者，我的意思是，有时候会有人自称是联邦调查局的人在移民与海关执法局出现。
Or they I mean, there are people who claim to be FBI at ICE sometimes.
而且我曾经在联邦调查局的人在场时被拘留过。
And I've, like, been detained while the FBI was there.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后他们跟我谈话，问我，你是怎么组织的？
And then they talk to me and ask me, like, so how are you organized?
你的头儿是谁？
And, like, who's your leader?
有人给你付钱吗？
Is someone paying you?
这些问题是联邦调查局问出来的，简直荒谬至极。
Which is all hilarious shit for the FBI to be asking.
你是不是太无能了？
Like, are you that are you incompetent?
你傻吗？
Are you stupid?
你是在装傻吗？
Are you pretending to be stupid?
还是你觉得我傻？
Or do you think that I'm stupid?
到底哪个啊？
Like, which is it?
他们是想让你承认自己是安提法的头目吗？
Like, they're trying to get you to admit to being the leader of Antifa?
不是。
No.
我的意思是，他们曾经有一阵子，问每个人都是这些问题。
I mean, they asked they asked for a while, they would ask everybody those basically those same questions.
对吧？
Right?
这真的很搞笑，因为很明显，你知道，我们并没有得到报酬。
It was just really funny because it's like, obviously, you know we're not being paid.
你在说什么？
What are you talking about?
你就不能，直接看看我们所有的私人信息吗？
Like, can't you just, like, look at all of our private information?
然后两个自称是FBI的特工给我做了一次简短的访谈，我根本没回答他们任何问题，反而问他们对资本主义和企业寡头有什么看法，完全无视了他们说的话。
And then two alleged FBI agents gave me a brief interview where I didn't really answer any of their questions and just asked them how they feel about capitalism and, you know, corporate oligarchy and things and just, like, disregarded everything they said.
这挺搞笑的。
It was pretty funny.
当你去ICE设施，跟DHS谈我们要除掉有钱人的时候，你就是在迎合他们对Antifa的刻板印象。
You're playing into what they think is Antifa, you know, when you go in there to an ICE facility and you're talking to DHS and you're talking about how we need to get rid of rich people.
我说‘除掉’并不准确。
I say get get rid of is not accurate, though.
对吧？
Right?
因为我是个民主社会主义者。
Because I'm a democratic socialist.
我喜欢民主。
I like democracy.
对吧？
Right?
我们需要的不是带着一小群暴力的安提法叛乱者去找富人，然后杀了他们。
What we need isn't to just, like, go to the rich people with a small group of of violent Antifa rebels and then, like, kill them.
这太蠢了。
That's dumb.
这不会带来持久的改变。
That won't result in lasting change.
我们需要的是说服所有人。
What we need is to convince everyone.
对吧？
Right?
就是说
To, like
在我告诉你们钱德勒的父亲是做什么工作之前，你们对接下来这段经济分析的解读可能会不一样。
This next piece of economic analysis from Chandler is gonna play differently to you once I tell you what his father did for a living.
所以，你们要比之前更认真地听。
So listen a little closer than you maybe were going to.
明白吗？
Okay?
富人讨厌我们。
Rich people hate us.
他们会尽一切努力巩固权力。
They will do everything that they can to consolidate power.
对吧？
Right?
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