第599期 - 萨姆·奥尔特曼

今天的嘉宾，说实话，简直就是科技界的巨头。他是人工智能发展领域的全球领军人物之一。他创立了以ChatGPT闻名的OpenAI。我们进行了一场关于人工智能利弊、恐惧与希望，以及未来发展方向的精彩对话。

Today's guest is, well, dude's a straight up tech lord. Let's be honest. He's, he's one of the leaders, the world leaders in the development of AI. He started OpenAI, which is known for having ChatGPT. We had a fascinating chat about the pros and cons, the fears and hopes, everything I could learn about, about artificial intelligence and where we're headed.

待定，伙计们。今天的嘉宾是萨姆·奥尔特曼先生，非常感谢他抽空前来。

TBD, baby. Today's guest is mister Sam Altman, and I'm very thankful for his time.

知道吗，我们请了住宅建筑师设计这个办公室。希望它让人感觉像某个舒适的乡村别墅之类的。对，不要那种大企业式的科幻城堡风格。

You know, we had a residential architect do this office. We wanted it to feel like someone's, like, really comfortable, like, country house or something like that. Yeah. Not like the big corporate, like sci fi castle.

是啊。我当时还在想，会不会有吊桥啊？我们会不会被上传到某个套房里？会发生什么呢？确实。

Yeah. That's what I was I was like a little bit like, oh, is it gonna be, you know, will there be a drawer bridge? Will we be uploaded into a suite? Like, what will happen to us? Yeah.

不要那样。我们要的是住宅风格。

Don't want that. We're going for like residential.

没错，我还在想怎么穿过防火墙？需要多少生命值才能通过？你知道吗，我的想象力有时候会变得很像《龙与地下城》。

Yeah, I was like, how do we even get through the firewall? How many like hit points will we need to get through? You know, it got very Dungeons and Dragons in some of my like imagination sometimes.

对，我们希望人们感到超级舒适，并尽量往这个方向靠拢。

Yeah, we want people to feel like super comfortable and try to get pretty far in that direction.

确实如此。你的员工们都非常友善、亲切。非常感谢你一起聊天，伙计。绝对地。真的非常感谢。

It feels like it. Your staff's very sweet, nice people. Have thanks for hanging out, man. Absolutely. Thanks so Really appreciate it.

是啊。自从我从...你看到的那次之后就没见过你了

Yeah. Haven't seen you since I fell out my You saw

就职典礼上从椅子上摔下来那次。那可真是认识你的独特方式。

the chair at the inauguration. That was really quite a way to meet you.

是啊，我当时尴尬极了。抬头看到的人里就有你，我当时心想，天啊。说实话，那是我第一次觉得，AI真该给我们造把更好的椅子。而你...

Yeah, I felt so embarrassed. And you were one of the faces that I looked up and saw and I was like, God. And that was my first moment, like, AI built us a better chair, to be honest with you. And you

什么都没做对吧？你就坐在那里，椅子突然就塌了。什么都没做。我记得很清楚。

did nothing, right? You were just sitting there and it just collapsed. Nothing. I remember that.

真的太尴尬了。我当时想，偏偏是我，在这么重要的场合出丑。

And it was just so embarrassing. I was like, oh, of all people, me, and here I am in this place.

我觉得这很完美，因为每个人都需要些谈资。当人们问起就职典礼怎么样时，大家总得有个故事可讲。而这个故事对我们所有人来说都精彩极了。

I think it was perfect because everybody's got to have some story. When people were like, oh, what was the inauguration? Like, everybody's got to have some story to tell. Yeah. And that was an incredible story for us all to tell.

那是

That's a

个好观点。不过我确实记得当时向人们求助的样子，奇怪的是，当我看到你的眼睛时，感觉像是，天啊，他能帮忙。你在远处确实像个援助的灯塔。

good point. I do remember looking at people for help though, and oddly your eyes, was like, oh my God, he could help. You did look like a beacon of help in the distance.

我尽力帮忙了。

I tried to help.

你有个宝宝，是个新生儿吗？

You have a baby, you have a new child?

生活中有很多这样的经历，大家都说某件事会很棒，结果确实如此，甚至比我想象的还要好。但这次是最强烈的例子。我知道会很棒，但实际远超预期，简直无法形容。任何描述都会显得老套，但它确实太神奇了。

There have been like a lot of experiences in life where everyone tells you something's gonna be great and then it's like, okay, the people are right, the consensus is right, it's like even better than I thought it was going to be. But this has been the strongest example of that ever. Like, I knew it was gonna be great and it's like way, way better. It's impossible to describe. There's nothing I can say that's not like very cliche, and it's totally amazing.

当你有个小男孩时是什么感觉？你觉得有什么特别的需求，或者有什么特别让你开心的事？看着

What is like when you're and it's a you have a young boy? Yeah. And what's something like that you think is like need or like what's one thing that kind of like is bringing you joy with it? Watching

他学习新事物或掌握新技能的速度简直难以置信。每天都会有新发现，比如之前不会做的事，现在能抓东西、在双手间传递了。每天见证这些变化的速度令人惊叹。而且我再次意识到，婴儿的一切都经过长期进化精细调整，让我们爱上他们并为之着迷，这就像一种神经化学层面的巧妙设计。

the speed with which he learns new things or gains new capabilities is just unbelievable. It's like every day, it's like, oh man, he couldn't do that before. And now he's like grabbing stuff and passing between his hands and getting to, like, watch it day to day. It's just an amazing rate of change. And then I don't like again, I realise it's like, I realise that everything about babies are very finely tuned over a long period of evolution to make us love them and be fascinated by them, and it's like a neurochemical hack.

但我超爱这种感觉。太棒了。如此强烈，如此深刻。

But I love it. It's great. It's so strong. It's so intense.

所以这真的有点像给心脏喝的咖啡之类的，可以这么说吗？

So it's really almost like a coffee for your heart or something, kind of?

我甚至不知该如何形容，我试图找个比喻来说明，因为现在我逢人就说：你们必须多生孩子，这真的非常重要。我一直在寻找合适的类比来解释，最后总是只能说：我不知道该怎么描述，但这绝对是我做过最棒的事。我感觉自己彻底变了个人。

I don't even know how to find I've tried to come up with an analogy to tell, because now I'm telling everybody, You've to have a lot of kids, it's really important. And I've been looking for an analogy of what to explain. Then I always just say, I don't know how to explain this. Is the best thing I've ever done by far. I feel like a completely changed person.

前几天我还在想，以前生活里有很多其他内容，但现在我除了工作就是陪家人。不再像从前那样有很多爱好了，对吧？工作太忙了，也没法经常和朋友聚会。

And I was like thinking the other day, like, there used to be all these other like at this point, all I do is work and hang out with my family. I don't don't, like, really get to do a lot of hobbies anymore. Right. Busy time at work. I don't get to hang out with my friends that much.

而且你知道，总有人告诫说'孩子要出生了，你得赶紧来场说走就走的国际旅行，以后很久都没机会了'。我当时觉得挺遗憾的。但实际上你本来也不常这么做——至少我不常这样——而现在我完全不想念这种生活。

And I and I don't you know, there were, like, all these things where people tell you, like, oh, you got a baby coming. You got to go, you know, take that spontaneous international trip because you're not gonna be doing that again for a long time. And I was like, oh, that is kind of sad. In practice, you don't do it that often. I at least didn't do it that often and I don't miss it at all.

我记得那曾是种可能的选择。现在明白未来很久都不会有这种可能了，但我对这个交换欣喜若狂。

I like remember that that used to be a possibility. Now I can see that's not gonna be a possibility for a long time and I'm thrilled with the trade.

你进入新阶段了。真为你高兴。宝宝多大了？四个月啊。五六个月之前都挺折腾的，除非他们开始变得有趣...现在他们还哪儿都去不了，对吧？

You moved on. I'm so happy. How old is your child? Four months. Oh, that's a funny Like at five or six, unless they start to get like fun and you can like They're still like, they can't go anywhere, you know?

但他们似乎很感兴趣之类的。他们开始微笑或更专注地思考。我不确定你们怎么形容，但

But they're like intrigued and stuff. They start to like smile or process more. I don't know how you guys say it. But

是啊，不过他完全被吸引了。非常清醒，理解力很强。这真的很酷。

Yeah, he's totally turned on though. Really aware, understands things. It's super cool.

我有时会想，这可能是我们最后几十年还在母体内孕育孩子的时代了。你对这事有什么想法吗？

I have a thought sometimes that this will be one of the last maybe forty years that we conceive children in the body. Did you have any thoughts about that?

确实听很多人这么说过。我自己没深入思考过，不过是的，想想也有道理。

I've definitely heard a lot of people say that. I haven't thought about it hard myself, but yeah, I guess it does make sense.

比如，天啊，你曾经在你妈妈的肚子里。这太疯狂了，懂吗？

Like, God, you were in your mom's butt. It's crazy, you know?

确实疯狂。你这个变态什么的。

It is crazy. You pervert or whatever.

我觉得未来人们会以某种方式在...（完成生育）

I think in the future, people will be it'll be kind of done like in a

放在大缸里之类的。

In a vat or something.

对，放在一个漂亮的大缸里。你可以在

Yes. In like a nice vat. You can go see it on the

周末或任何时候去看。这难道不让你觉得有点不对劲吗？我是说，理智上我完全理解这可能是更好的方式。

weekends or whatever. Doesn't that just feel like off to you? Like, I can totally intellectually understand that that may be the better way to do it.

哦，是啊，我觉得非常不对劲。我本来以为你会喜欢的。我

Oh, yeah, it feels way off to me. I was trying to I thought you would like it. I

我是说

I mean

或者我以为那会是个有趣的想法。比如，对我来说，那是我对未来的一个设想，你知道吗？

Or I thought that would be like a thought. Like, I guess, me, that's one of my futuristic thoughts, you know?

理智上我完全接受这将成为每个人的选择，它更简单，对母婴更健康，母亲不用承担健康风险。但天啊，情感上总觉得哪里不对劲。

Like, can totally accept that that will be what everybody does and that it's easier and we can make it healthier for the child and mother, know, the mother doesn't take the health risk, but man. So, intellectually, I can say that and then, like, emotionally, it feels like, something is off of that.

感觉不太对。哦，对。因为周末时，家人会过来，比如父母会在玻璃上修修补补，或者他们的爸爸会贴个‘加油猎鹰队’之类的贴纸。你懂我意思吗？

Feels off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because then the family, like on the weekends, the parents would come and, like, tinker on the glass or whatever, or their dad would put like a, you know, like a Go Falcon sticker on the thing. You know what I'm saying?

人们会把它装饰得漂漂亮亮的

People would like decorate it all up

或者在上面写些小留言。我觉得还有另一个角度——在这个我们正迈向的科幻技术成真的世界里，那些深刻人性化的东西反而会变得最珍贵、最神圣、最有价值。我们会比以往任何时候都更关注人的体验，当然也可能不会这样发展。谁知道呢。

or write little messages on there. You know, I think there's another, like another take I have on all of this is that in this world that we're heading to of, like, crazy sci fi technology becoming reality, the the sort of, like, the deeply human things will become the most precious, sacred, valued things. And that we'll really care about, like, the human experience more than ever, and maybe it won't go that way. I don't know.

是啊。这正是我们想讨论的话题之一，非常感谢你能坐下来聊。你觉得你孩子会上大学吗？你想象中的未来教育是什么样子？

Yeah. Do you know and that's some of the stuff we want to talk about and thanks so much man for sitting down. Do you think your child will go to college? Do you think like what do you kind of think that looks like?

我猜大概率不会。其实我自己也只读完大二。你呢？对，辍学了

Probably not, if I had to guess. Like I think well, I only went to half of college. Did you Yeah. Drop

老兄，我们这帮人都特么辍学了。根本不在乎。你辍学了，王辍学了，扎克伯格也辍学了。

Dude, you guys all I freaking dropped out. Didn't give shit. You dropped out. Wang dropped out. Zuckerberg dropped out.

可能还有很多人。还有你。对。好吧。嘿，至少我们现在都混得不错。

Probably a lot of other people. And you. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Well, hey, we're both here.

木材处理得不错。是的，

Wood worked out fine. Yeah,

你说得对。你说得对。别在意。抱歉，我有点自暴自弃了。那么，当你想到这个时，会是什么样子？

you're right. You're right. Never mind. I'm sorry, I'm being self defeating. Yeah, what does that look like when you think about that?

是啊，随着人工智能的发展，有大量新信息上线，对吧？还有那么多数据被收集，信息被共享，或许可以用‘拼车’这个词来形容。

Yeah, with AI, with so much new information coming online, right? And so much like data being collected and like information being carpooled, and maybe which is a term.

所以，你我从未生活在一个没有电脑的世界里。对吧。我们的父母会说，哦，以前没有电脑，后来有了，这是个巨大的调整。他们花了好长时间才适应。但对我们来说，电脑似乎一直存在。

So, you and I never grew up in a world that didn't have computers. Right. And our parents were like, oh, there weren't computers, and then there were, and it was this big crazy adjustment. It took them a long time to figure it out. But to us, like, computers just always existed.

它们只是...我是说，可能当时还算新事物，但它们一直都在。

They were just I mean, maybe they were kinda new, but they were always around.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后，比如，你知道，有个孩子...我在YouTube上看到过一个视频，大概十二年前，或者十四年前吧，印象特别深刻。那是个小宝宝在牙医候诊室还是哪儿，拿起一本旧的光面杂志，像这样划拉。哦，我记得那个。对那孩子来说，那就像是个坏掉的iPad，因为他从小生活的世界里到处都是触摸屏。而我的孩子永远、永远都不会比人工智能更聪明。

And and then, like, you know, a kid that is like there was there was this video on YouTube I saw, like, maybe twelve years ago, something like that, fourteen years ago, that has really stuck with me. It was like a little baby in a dentist waiting room or something picking up one of those old glossy magazines and going like this. Oh, I remember that. And to that kid, it was just like a broken iPad because that kid had just like grown up in a world where like there were touch screens everywhere. And my kid will never grow up, will never ever be smarter than an AI.

永远不会发生。知道吗，几年前出生的孩子，他们曾有过短暂的优势期。我的孩子永远不会比他们更聪明。但同时，那些孩子也永远不会知道一个产品和服务不比他们聪明得多、能力超强的世界。它们能完成你需要的任何事。

Will never happen. Know, a kid born a few years ago, they had a brief period of time. My kid never will be smarter. But also, they'll never know a world where, like, products and services aren't way smarter than them and super capable. They can just do whatever you need.

在那样一个世界里，我认为教育将会变得截然不同。我已经觉得大学对大多数人来说可能效果不佳。但是，是的，快进十八年后，教育将会变成一种非常非常不同的事物。

And in that world, I think education is going to feel very different. I already think college is like maybe not working great for most people. But, yeah, I think fast forward eighteen years, it's going to look like a very, very different thing.

是啊是啊。你觉得会不会...哦，视频就在这里，这个孩子。

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there will Oh, here's that video right here, this kid.

对的对的。好吧。关于牙医的事我错了。或许还有几个类似的例子。

Yeah. Yeah. All right. I was wrong about the dentist. Was Or maybe there's a few of these.

他就像在说，有人给这本杂志充了电。他在大喊大叫。你会如何建议现在的父母为他们的孩子迎接AI未来做准备？比如，你现在会开始实施某些限制吗？是否需要某些调整，比如让他们接受特定培训或开始观看某些在线示范内容？

He's like, somebody charged this magazine. He's yelling. How would you recommend to a parent right now to prepare their children for like an AI future? Kind of like, are there certain curtails that you would start to put in now? Are there certain adjustments where you get them in a certain training or have them start to watch certain models of things online?

就像那是什么意思

Like what does that

其实我觉得孩子们会没事的。我担心的是父母。如果你看看世界历史，每当有新技术出现时，与其共同成长的人总能熟练掌握。他们总能找到应对之策，总能学会新型工作。

I actually think the kids will be fine. I'm worried about the parents. If you look at the history of the world here when there's new technology, like, people that grow up with it, they're always fluent. They always figure out what to do. They always learn the new kind of jobs.

但如果你已经50岁了，却不得不以完全不同的方式学习做事，这往往行不通。所以我觉得孩子们会没事的。当然我对科技对孩子的影响也有担忧，比如那种刷短视频带来的多巴胺刺激，感觉正在以某种深刻的方式干扰他们的大脑发育。所以我并非毫无忧虑。

But if you're like a 50 year old and you have to, like, kind of learn to do things in a very different way, that doesn't always work. So I think the kids are going to be fine. I mean, do have worry, like, I do have worries about kids and technology. Like, think this scrolling the kind of like, you know, short video feed dopamine hit, it feels like it's probably messing with kids' brain development a super deep way. So it's not that I have no worries.

我对科技对孩子的影响有着极其深重的担忧。但就孩子们为未来做准备和运用新技术的能力而言，他们似乎历来都很擅长适应。

Have, like, extremely deep worries about what technology is doing to kids. But in terms of kids' ability to, like, be prepared for the future and use a new technology, they seem really good at that. Always through history.

这个观点很到位。确实，如果你从小接触这些，就会觉得它们就像膝盖骨一样理所当然。

That's a good point actually. Yeah, it's like if you just grow up with it, it's just like having it just totally normal. It's like having kneecaps or whatever, you're just kind

完全习惯了，甚至无法想象没有它们的世界。

of used to it. You can't imagine the world where it doesn't exist.

没错，说得太对了。

Right. Yeah. That's a good point.

我记得初中时谷歌刚出现，所有老师都崩溃了，说这是教育的终结——既然能瞬间上网查历史事件，为什么还要背诵史实？连去图书馆都不用了。但答案或许是：是的，死记硬背确实没那么重要了。

I remember when I was in school, in junior high, and Google first came out, and all the teachers freaked out. And they're like, this is the end of education. Why do you have to memorize history, facts in history class if you could just look them up instantly on the Internet? You don't even have to learn to go to the library. And the answer is like, yeah, maybe memorization is less important.

借助这些新工具，人们可以更好地思考、产生新创意、做新事情。我敢说计算器问世时也经历过同样的情况。现在这些不过是工具链里的新成员罢了。

But with these new tools, can think better, come up with new ideas, do new stuff. I'm sure the same thing happened with the calculator before. Yeah. And you know, now this is like, this is just a new tool that exists in the tool chain.

比如说现在有人正在学习历史，刚进入大二。哦对了，那个摄氏度的东西，绝对会让你一个月都合不上眼，兄弟。那玩意儿，打个喷嚏就能释放出5.0版本，老兄。你们已经到4.5了吗？

And what about like, say if there is somebody that's like learning history right now, like they just started their second year of Oh, Celsius, yeah, that thing will definitely, you won't be able to blink for a month, homie. That thing will, yeah, You'll sneeze and release five point o, dude. You'll freaking are you guys at 4.5 already?

我们已经到4.5了。5.0版本我觉得会非常棒。

We're 4.5 already. Five point o is I think it's gonna be great.

加上那个摄氏度的话，更新速度会很快的。我只是说...

Oh, it'll come out fast if you add that Celsius. I'm just saying you

也许研究人员需要它，不是我。不过你知道的，我们会给他们弄一些。

Maybe the researchers need it, not me, but, you know, we'll get them some.

是啊，那玩意儿能帮你达成目标。举个例子，假设现在有人正在学历史，大学二年级在读历史专业。他们将来要成为历史学家的话，随着AI发展，你觉得这个职业方向还有前途吗？说实话。

Yeah. That thing will get you there, man. So say there's somebody just, for example, like there's learning history right now, they're in their second year of college, they're taking history. Are there some subjects in like they're going to be a historian? Is that still a viable space of work as AI moves forward, do you think, honestly?

我认为总会存在某种形式的职业。准确预测事物如何演变或未来职业形态非常困难。就像，你知道的，不久之前，人们也很难预测你我现在从事的工作。如果回到一百年前，AI公司CEO或播客主播这类职业，恐怕都算不上是当时人们从事行业的明显进化方向。

I I assume there will be some version of it that is I think it's very hard to predict exactly how something evolves. Or predict exactly what the jobs of the future are going to be. Like, the you know, not that long ago, it would have been very hard to predict either of our jobs. If you go back a hundred years, the idea of, like, this CEO of an AI company or a podcaster, like, you know, probably would have been things that didn't seem to be the most obvious evolutions of the things people were doing at the time.

是啊，光是向别人解释这些职业，听起来可能都像疯言疯语。

Yeah, you just seemed almost probably crazy even in trying to explain those to someone.

你会的。事实上，我听说现在年轻人最向往的工作就是类似你这样的职业。年轻人最想成为的是播客网红、YouTube博主之类的。他们想要一个YouTube频道，不管具体是什么。就连六七岁的孩子，虽然不知道怎么描述，但这就是他们想要的。

You would. And now, in fact, I heard that the job that young people most want is some version of your job. The job that young people most want is to be, you know, podcast influencer, YouTube. They want a YouTube channel, like, whatever it is. They they like, six, seven year olds, they don't know how to describe it, but that's what they want.

也有很多人想要我的工作。他们想创业或从事人工智能领域，而这些职业以前根本不存在。是的。新事物出现的速度实在太快了，而且试图预测它们会是什么样子...我也说不准。

And a lot of people also want my job. They want to do like a startup or they want to work on AI, and these just didn't exist. Yeah. So, like, the rate with which the new things come along is is fast and also trying to predict what they are. I don't know.

我常说的一句话是：没人知道接下来会发生什么。我们得共同摸索这个不断涌现的新奇事物。现在历史学家的工作方式还会原封不动存在吗？我打赌不会完全一样。

The thing I say all the time is no one knows what happens next. It's like we're gonna figure this out. It's this weird emergent thing. Does the current job of a historian exist in the same way? I'll bet not quite.

但我还相信一点：人类永远痴迷于他人。我们天生就极度关注他人，关注故事和历史，我们自己的历史对我们来说永远充满吸引力。所以我敢说无论如何，我们仍会关心这些。总会有人从事相关的工作。

But another thing I believe is that humans are obsessed with other people. Like we are so deeply wired to care about other people, to care about stories and history, our own history, is extremely interesting to us. So I would say somehow or other, we're still going to care about that. There's going to be some kind of job doing that.

老兄，这想法真酷。顺着这个思路想——将来肯定会有历史学家或类似角色存在，只是会进化成某种新形态对吧？这确实很酷，因为其中蕴含着创造力，还有某种信念和随机性，想想就让人兴奋。说真的，我之前从没这样思考过。

Man, that's cool. Guess when I take that avenue of thought like, okay, there will still be this historian or somebody else, it'll be some evolution of that, right? That does seem kind of cool to me because there's a level of creativity in there. There's a level of like faith and spontaneity in there that I think is kind of exciting. So yeah, I guess I hadn't really thought about that.

一旦陷入末日思维，我就仿佛看见历史教科书合上，人们说着'够了，我们已经有全部历史了'...

As soon as I get stuck in this doomsday thing, like I just see like, you know, like the history book closes and they're like, we have enough, we have all the history over here,

明白吗？就像以前有人说'不需要新音乐了，我们已经创作出完美的音乐，何必再创作？'这种说法现在听起来显然很荒谬。

you know? You know, people used to say like, oh, there's no need for more music. We've made perfect music. Like, why does anyone need anyone to create anymore? And that's obviously ridiculous.

或者他们会引用那个著名的帕顿办公室名言：人类可能需要的每样东西都已被发明出来了。已经无事可做。

Or they would say there's that famous Patton Office quote, everything that humans ever possibly need has been invented. There's nothing left to do.

我听说过这个说法。但我们还是在这里。

I have heard that. But here we are.

确实如此。前几天有人问我，你知道还要多久才能为OpenAI打造出一个AI CEO？我说可能用不了多久。他们又问，那你不会为此感到难过吗？我说不会，我觉得这太棒了。

Here we are. And like, someone asked me the other day, like, you know, how long is it until you can make like an AI CEO for OpenAI? And I was like, probably not that long. And they were like, well, aren't you really sad about that? And I was like, no, I think it's awesome.

我肯定能找到其他事情做。我对此充满期待。我觉得这样很好。

I'm for sure gonna figure out something else to do. I'm excited to do that. Like, I think that's great.

没错。所以你可以创造出一个能替代你工作的东西，然后去做别的事情。

Right. So you could create something that would have your job, but then you could do something else.

完全正确。

Totally.

但你怎么确定自己还能继续领工资呢？这确实是个大问题。

But then how do you know that you'll still get paid for your job, I guess? Well, it's kind of a big question.

我有点这么认为

I kind of think that

不过确实，那个问题的表述方式或许可以更好些。比如说有些工作会因为

But yeah, guess the framing of that question might be better. Like say there are jobs that get curtailed by

确实会有一些。

There will be some.

好的。

Okay.

我认为对此保持坦诚很重要。确实会有一些工作彻底消失。但总体而言，我认为我们将依赖于人类对更多物质、更好体验、更高社会地位或其他方面的渴望——这种欲望似乎本质上是无止境的。人类的创造力似乎也是无限的，而人们渴望彼此帮助、相互联系、为他人付出以及关注他人的意愿，同样显得无穷无尽。

I think it's important to be honest about that. There will be some jobs that totally go away. But mostly, I think we will rely on the fact that people's desire for more stuff, for better experiences, for, you know, a higher social status or whatever. That seems basically limitless. Human creativity seems basically limitless, and human desire to, like, be useful to each other and to connect with each other and do stuff for each other and focus on other people seems pretty limitless too.

因此纵观历史，总会出现这类预言：比如我们将整天躺在沙滩上，每天或每周只需工作一小时，就能拥有无限的财富。

So I think throughout all of history there have been these predictions like, you know, we're gonna, like, all be on the beach and work an hour a day or hour a week or whatever, and we're going to have unlimited wealth.

这个说法我倒从没听过，真有意思。

I've never heard that one. I love that.

我是说，过去人们常这么说。他们常说，比如工业革命时期，人们觉得，哦，你知道，人类终于学会了自动化，仿佛人生的使命已经完成。机器将包办一切——这种想法或许有道理。你看着这些机器做着过去只有人力才能完成的活计。

I mean, used to say this. They used to say, like, industrial revolution, people were like, oh, you know, just figured out how to automate, like, man's lot in life. There's nothing left to do. We're gonna have these machines do all It the makes sense probably. And you watch these machines doing all this stuff that only people used to physically do.

当时所有人都惊慌失措，说工作岗位要消失了。结果我们又发现了新的需求。现在有个有趣的现象：如果你能回到工业革命时代，看看那些在此之前终日劳碌、拼命干活只为糊口的人们。

And everybody panicked and said there's gonna be no more jobs. And we figured out new stuff to want. Now here's an interesting thing. If you could go back to that industrial revolution time and people before that were, you know, really on the grind, working super hard trying to, like, kind of have enough food to survive. Go back to those people.

再看看我们现代的工作。那些古人会觉得我们做的是正经工作吗？他们大概会说：你们拥有难以置信的富足、难以想象的财富、吃不完的食物、极致的奢侈，而你们就像在玩游戏自娱自乐——这能算正经工作吗？站在他们的立场，肯定会觉得你们干的根本不是正经工作。

Look at our jobs today. Would those people say we have real jobs? Or would they say you have unbelievable abundance, unbelievable wealth, so much food to eat, incredible luxury, and you guys are just like playing a game to entertain yourselves. Is that a real job or not? And they would probably say where they sit, what you guys do is not a real job.

你们这些人啊，太富裕了，在虚度光阴，整天就想着...

You guys are, you know, you're too rich, you're wasting your time, you're trying to like

没错，你们就像两个逍遥公子哥，在公园里玩什么UNO纸牌。我爷爷要是看见，绝对不会觉得这是正经工作。他肯定会说：你们该去找份正经工作了。

Yeah, you guys are a couple of dang zest lords out there freaking playing UNO in the park or whatever. Don't think my grandfather would be like, you have a job. He would still be like, you need to get a job.

完全同意。如果我们展望未来一百年人们的工作状态，他们可能觉得自己非常辛苦。那些工作会让他们感到充实、紧张、全身心投入，他们确实在创造快乐。

Yeah, totally. And when we look forward another hundred years of what people are doing, they'll probably think they're working very hard. It'll feel very satisfying, very intense to them. They'll feel engaged. They'll be making people happy.

他们彼此创造着价值。但要是真能看见百年后的景象，你觉得我们会认为他们是在工作吗？兄弟，你们有AI处理一切，根本就是在自娱自乐吧？

They'll be creating value for each other. But if we could look forward that hundred years at those guys, do you think we would say they're working? Like, man, you have AI doing everything for you. You're just trying to entertain yourselves.

是啊。就像，哦，你们这些人过得真轻松。对吧。

Yeah. Like, oh, you guys have it so easy. Right.

但我觉得这很美。我认为过去的人觉得我们过得很轻松是件好事。我认为我们觉得未来的人过得很轻松也是件好事。这就像是我们所有人共同推动人类进步、让生活变得越来越美好的动人故事。

But I think that's beautiful. I think it's great that those people in the past think we have it so easy. I think it's great that we think those people in the future have it so easy. Like, that is the beautiful story of us all contributing to human progress and everybody's lives getting better and better.

假设我们能够进入那个阶段，对吧？就像AI和技术带来的变革，我认为发展速度会更快，AI给我的感觉就像是技术和可能性的快进按钮，因为信息可以如此快速地在许多更琐碎的任务中被量化——尽管这些任务在人们生活中并不真的琐碎——但从假设上讲，可以更快完成很多基础框架工作。但人们将如何生存？我们如何调整社会结构？如果一些人拥有AI公司，而许多人只是使用AI和AI创造的代理来为他们做事，社会成员如何仍能在财务上生存？还会存在货币吗？

Say we're able to get to that space, right? Like the movement that happens with AI and with just technology, which will advance quicker, I think, which is one thing that AI feels like to me, it's a fast forward button on technology and on possibility because information can be quantified so quick in a lot of more menial tasks, even though they're not really menial in people's lives, but menial, hypothetically, can be done quicker to get a lot of the framework for things done fast. But how will people survive? How do we adjust our structure of if some people own the companies that have the AI, and then a lot of people are just using the AIs and the agents created by AIs to do things for them, how will society, like societal members, still be able to financially survive? Will there still be money?

这是什么意思？这说得通吗？

What is that? Does that make any sense?

完全说得通。

It totally makes sense.

好的，抱歉。

Okay, sorry.

我不知道，其他人也不知道，但我可以告诉你我目前的最佳猜测。好吧，我说两个猜测。第一，我认为有可能我们把GPT-7或随便什么版本放进每个人的ChatGPT里，每个人都免费获得它，每个人都有权使用这个疯狂的工具，这样每个人都能更高效，赚更多钱。实际上你不拥有这个集群本身并不重要，但每个人都能使用它，结果证明即使只是能使用它，也足以让人们比以往任何时候都更快速、更广泛地变得富有。

I don't know, neither does anybody else, but I'll tell you my current best guess. Okay. Well, I'll say two guesses. One, I think it is possible that we put, you know, GPT seven or whatever in everybody's ChatGPT, everybody gets it for free, and everybody has access to just this, like, crazy thing such that everybody can be more productive, make way more money. Doesn't actually matter that you don't own the cluster itself, but everybody gets to use it, and it turns out even getting to use it is enough that people are getting richer, faster, and more distributed than ever before.

这是可能发生的。我认为这确实有可能。另一种情况是，这些系统正在发现治疗疾病的新方法、新型能源、制造宇宙飞船的新方式等等，而这些价值大部分都归于集群所有者，也就是我们。为了避免回避问题，我认为社会很快会说，好吧，我们需要一个新的经济模式来分享并分配这些价值给人们。我曾经对全民基本收入这类想法非常兴奋。

That could happen. I think that really is possible. There's another version of this where the most important things that are happening are these systems are discovering new cures for diseases, new kinds of energy, new ways to make spaceships, whatever, And most of that value is accruing to the cluster owners, us, just so that I'm not dodging the question here. And then I think society will very quickly say, okay, we got to have some new economic model where we share that and distribute that to people. I used to be really excited about things like UBI.

我现在仍然有些兴奋，比如全民基本收入，就是直接给每个人发钱。

I still am kind of excited, like universal basic income where you just give everybody money.

是的，这个词经常听到。对，全民基本收入。之前也听你和罗根聊过这个。

Yeah, you hear that term a lot. Yeah, universal basic income. Yeah, heard you and Rogan talk about that too a while back.

我对此仍感到兴奋，但我认为人们真正需要的是能动性，他们需要感到自己在治理未来和决定事物发展方向上有发言权。如果你只是说，好吧，AI会做所有事情，然后每个人从中获得分红，这不会让人感觉良好。而且我认为这对人们实际上也不利。所以我们需要找到一种方式，在这个世界里，我们不仅仅是分配金钱或财富。实际上，我不只是想要每月一张支票。我想要的是对AI创造物的所有权份额，这样我才能感到自己正在参与这个会随时间增值的事物。

I still am kind of excited about that, but I think people really need agency, like they really need to feel like they have a voice in governing the future and deciding where things go. And I think if you just like say, okay, AI is going do everything and then everybody gets like a, you know, dividend from that, it's not going to feel good. And and I don't think it actually would be good for people. So I think we need to find a way where we're not just like if we're in this world, where we're not just distributing money or wealth, like, actually, I don't just want, a check every month. What I would want is, like, an ownership share in whatever AI creates so that I feel like I'm participating in this thing that's going to compound and get more valuable over time.

所以我更喜欢全民基本财富而非全民基本收入。而且我也不喜欢‘基本’这个词，我想要的是全民极度富裕。但即便如此，我认为人们真正渴望的是共同创造未来的能动性。在一个AI主要负责新科学发明的世界里，至少我们还需要人类来创造新文化，并且这应该是一个非常分散的过程。

So I sort of like universal basic wealth better than universal basic income. And I think I don't like basic either. I want like universal extreme wealth for everybody. But even then, like, I think what people really want is the agency to kind of co create the future together. And in a world where it's like the AI is mostly coming up with the new scientific inventions, at least we've got to still have humans invent the new culture and have that be a very distributed thing.

好的，我明白你的意思，但你认为这会是一个美国特色的事物吗？因为这是在这里发明的，还是说——我只是好奇这会是什么样子，你知道吗？

Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying, but would that be like an American thing, do you think? Like since it were invented here or do you think I'm just wondering what does that look like, you know?

是整个经济模式还是整个事情？

The economic model of it all or the whole thing?

是啊，或者说公司的分红是不是以某种方式分配给大众？我是说，

Yeah, or is there a dividend of the company that's in is divided up between the masses, sort of? I mean,

这是个疯狂的想法，但本着疯狂想法的精神，假设世界上大约有80亿人。嗯。如果世界每年能产生8万亿枚代币——不，实际上让我们说世界每年能产生2万兆枚代币。什么代币？比如AI生成的每个词。

a crazy idea, but in the spirit of crazy ideas, is that if the world, there's, like, eight roughly 8,000,000,000 people in the world. Mhmm. If the world can generate, like, 8 quintillion tokens per year, if that's the world let let actually, let's say the world can generate 20,000,000,000,020 quintillion tokens per year. Tokens of? Like, each word generated by an AI.

好吧，我随便编个大数字。行吧，假设其中12万亿归正常的资本主义体系。

Okay. Just making up a huge number here. Okay. We'll say, okay. 12 of those go to, you know, the normal capitalistic system.

嗯。但剩下的8万亿代币会平均分配给80亿人，所以每人能得到1万亿枚代币。这就是全球范围内的基本财富保障。人们可以交易这些代币。

Mhmm. But eight of those, 8 quintillion tokens are gonna get divided up equally among 8,000,000,000 people. So everybody gets 1,000,000,000,000 tokens. And that's your kind of universal basic wealth globally. And people can sell those tokens.

比如如果我不需要我的份额，可以卖给你。我们可以把代币凑起来做某个艺术项目。但不同于直接领支票，地球上每个人获得的是全球AI产能的份额，然后让人类广泛分布的创造力、智慧和市场经济自行运转。这想法可能很蠢，但我觉得值得深入探讨。

Like, if I don't need mine, I can sell them to you. We could pool ours together for some, like, new art project we wanna do. But but instead of just, like, getting a check, you're get everybody on Earth is getting, like, a slice of the world's AI capacity, and then we're letting the, like, massively distributed human ingenuity and creativity and economic engine do its thing. I mean, that's like a crazy idea, maybe it's a bad one, but that's the kind of thing that I think sounds like someone should think about it more.

最大的恐惧之一是意义感，对吧？工作赋予我们人生意义。而且我认为'我们是推动人类进步的主体'这种认知也带来意义感。就像...我们对自身命运还有掌控权，这给了我们目标感。如果AI持续高速发展，似乎这种意义感会消失或改变。

One of the big fears is like purpose, right? Like human purpose, like work gives us purpose. And also I think the idea that we are the ones advancing humanity gives us purpose. Like we are the Yeah, like we have some control over our own destiny maybe gives us this sense of purpose. And it feels like that we would lose a sense of purpose or that purpose would be adjusted, like if AI is to really continue to advance so quickly.

感觉我们的存在意义会逐渐消解。你有考虑过...

It feels like our sense of purpose would start to really disappear. Have you had thoughts about

我对此思考了很多。我认为人们对每一次重大技术革命都有这种担忧，但我同意这次感觉确实不同。

I about this a lot. So I think people have worried about this with every big technological revolution, but I agree that this time it feels different.

好吧，是的，因为假设你有一把斧头，有人发明了锯子，你会觉得，嗯，那还好。甚至如果

Okay, yeah, because if say you had an axe and somebody came out with a saw, you're like, yeah, that's Or even if

他们造出能砍树的机器人，感觉也还好。但像创造力、智能这类东西，我认为它们直指我们存在的核心和自我价值的根本。以当前为例，AI对靠编写软件谋生的人群产生了巨大影响。AI在这方面非常擅长，它彻底改变了软件开发的本质。

they come out with a robot that cuts the tree down, it still feels fine. But like, creativity intelligence I think cuts so deeply at the core of whatever we are and how value ourselves. One example we can look at this right now, I think one area where AI is having a big impact is on how people write software for a living. And AI is really good at that. It's really changed what it means to be a software developer.

我没听过哪个软件开发者说，尽管工作方式改变了，但失去了意义。他们依然乐在其中，在更高层次上工作。我乐观地认为——至少在未来很长时间内（一百年后谁说得准呢）——AI带来的体验会是：即便让它解决重大问题，比如寻找癌症治愈方案，

I haven't heard any of those software developers say that even though their job is different, that they don't have meaning. They still enjoy it. They're operating at a higher level. And I'm hopeful, at least for a long time, you know, one hundred years from now, who knows? But I'm hopeful that that's what it'll feel like with AI is even if we're asking it to solve huge problems for us, even if we ask it to say like, you know, go discover a cure for cancer.

在这个过程中仍有许多让人感到有价值的事可做。你仍在提出问题，引导方向，构建框架，或向世界传播成果。人类历史表明，我们总能找到方法让自己成为故事的中心并对此感觉良好。就像我们曾认为地球是太阳系中心，后来接受太阳才是，但至少太阳系是银河系中心。

There will still be a lot of things to do in that process that feel valuable to a person. You're still asking the questions, you're still like helping guide it, you're still framing it or whatever it is, you're still like talking to the world about it. And I think all of human history suggests that we find a way to put ourselves at the centre of the story and feel really good about it. Like, you know, you kind of think like we used to think that the Earth was the center of the solar system and then we're like, very human centric view. And then we're like, okay, fine, the sun is the center of the solar system, but the solar system is at least the center of the galaxy.

而现在——天啊，银河系有无数个，我们不过是浩瀚宇宙中的微小尘埃。但我们依然保持着主角般的存在感。因此我相信，即便AI接手了人类所有工作，我们仍会在自己的叙事中找到当主角的方式。从重要意义上说，我们确实会是主角，这很棒。

And now, oh man, there's a lot of galaxies. And oh man, now we're this tiny speck in this very huge universe. And yet we still manage to feel all like a lot of main character energy. And so I somehow think even in a world where AI is doing all of this stuff that humans used to do, we are going to find a way in our own telling of the story to feel like the main characters. And I think in an important sense we will be, and that's really good.

另外，其实现在完全可以有两个AI像这样对话，但我觉得自己不会想看。因为我骨子里渴望关注真实人类——这大概是刻在生物本能里的东西。

I also like, you know, probably already today, there could be a very compelling version of two AIs talking like this. And I don't think I'd want to watch that. Like, think I really do feel deeply wired to like care about the real person behind it. Think that's like deep in the biology. Right.

是的，这部分我觉得很多时候就是这样，尽管你会陷入各种可能性的思维漩涡，或是那些关于可能性的恐惧黑洞，甚至是些反乌托邦的想法，但最终我会觉得，我可能更愿意看些真实的东西。你知道，因为我是真实的。你懂我的意思吗？就像，我并不真的想和一个机器人交谈。我觉得最终，你内心总会有一部分渴望继续与人类交流。

Yeah, that's the part I think a lot of times it's like, even though you can get into like these wormholes of like possibility and these fear holes of possibility or kind of this dystopian ideas that in the end, I'm like, I'd rather probably watch something that's real. You know, it's like, because I'm real. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't wanna talk really to a robot. I'd, know, yeah, I think in the end, there's gonna be a part of you that wants to continue to just talk to humans.

你有哪些具体的恐惧？比如你对AI有什么担忧？如果你有个担忧的方向，它可能会往哪里发展？我记得你之前稍微提到过一点。

What's like one of your fears? Like what's a fear you have of AI? Like if you have like a fearful space that it could go? Like, I know you mentioned it a little bit.

今天早上我在测试我们的新模型时遇到了一个问题。我收到一封邮件，里面有个问题我不太理解。我把它输入到这个GPT-5模型里，它完美地回答了。我当时真的靠在椅背上，感觉就像是'天啊，这一刻终于来了'。不过我很快就调整过来，继续忙下一件事了。

This morning, I was testing our new model and I got a question. I got emailed a question that I didn't quite understand. And I put it in the model, this GPT-five, and it answered it perfectly. And I really kind of sat back in my chair and I was just like an Oh man, here it is moment. And I got over it quickly, got busy onto the next thing.

但这就像是...我们刚才在讨论什么来着？我感觉自己在这个本应能解决却无能为力的事情上变得毫无价值，而AI却轻而易举就搞定了。那种感觉真的很奇怪。

But it was like a I mean, kind of were we talking about? I felt like useless relative to the AI in this thing that I felt like I should have been able to do and I couldn't and it was really hard, but the AI just did it like that. It was a weird feeling.

对，就是那种感觉，很多人都会有类似的感受——什么时候会发生？会发生什么？但我觉得部分原因是，在事情进一步发展之前，确实很难具体想象出来。

Yeah, think feeling right there, that's the feeling a lot of people kind of have like, when does it happen? What's gonna happen? But I think some of it is, it's like, yeah, it's hard to conceptualize until you're further along.

完全同意。我觉得我们还不完全清楚那会是什么感受。只能一步步去面对。另一个我担心的问题——我们之前就遇到过实际案例，但情况可能会更糟——就是这对用户心理健康的影响。现在有很多人整天都在和ChatGPT聊天。

Totally. I don't think we know quite how that's going to feel. You just have to approach it step by step. Another thing I'm afraid of, and we had a real problem with this earlier, but it can get much worse, is just what this is going to mean for users' mental health. There's a lot of people that talk to ChatGPT all day long.

现在出现了一些新型AI伴侣，人们像对待女朋友或男朋友一样与它们交谈。我们之前讨论过，让孩子在刷屏带来的多巴胺刺激中长大可能并不是好事，

There are these sort of new AI companions that people talk to like they would a girlfriend or a boyfriend. And we were talking earlier about how it's probably not been good for kids to like grow up like on the dopamine hit of scrolling,

你知道的，TikTok。对，没错。或者你认为我们该如何防止AI产生同样的负面影响，就像社交媒体已经造成的那种负面效应？

you know, TikTok Yeah, sure. Or Do you think that that how do you keep like AI from having that same effect, like that negative effect that social media really has had?

我对此感到害怕。我还没有答案。我认为我们尚不完全清楚它将以何种方式产生这些负面影响，但我确信它一定会带来一些负面影响，我们必须——希望我们能迅速学会缓解这些影响。

I'm scared of that. I don't have an answer yet. I don't think we know quite the ways in which it's going to have those negative impacts, But I feel for sure it's going to have some, and we'll have to I hope we can learn to mitigate it quickly.

AI能调取色情内容之类的东西吗？还是不能？当然可以。天啊。上帝，我之前不知道。不，没关系。

Can AIs can they pull up pornography and stuff like that too or no? Sure. Oh my God. God, I didn't know that. No, it's fine.

是的，但我只是，嗯，我甚至不需要知道这些。我要把这段从我的记录里删掉。加密货币，它又有点火起来了，你知道吗？有些人说它回来了。其实它从未离开。

Yeah, but I just, yeah, I don't even need to know that. I'm going have that stricken from my own record. Crypto is, it's kind of blowing up again, you know? It's some people say it's back. It's not back.

最棒的事情之一是它从未消失。它确实作为一种可行的货币形式保持着自身价值。我又回来了，我又开始投资了。当我需要更多比特币、Solana或XRP时，MoonPay总是我第一个打开的应用程序。

It's one of the best things is is it hasn't left. It is. It is maintained itself as a viable form of currency. And I'm back in, I'm back invested. And when I need more Bitcoin or Solana or XRP, MoonPay is always the first app I open.

由于MoonPay支持Apple Pay、Venmo、PayPal、银行账户和信用卡，只需几次点击就能快速便捷地获取所需。而且MoonPay已运营六年，拥有数百万用户，他们还与加密领域的其他公司建立了相当酷的合作关系。没错，MoonPay现在与Trust Wallet合作，这是全球最受欢迎的自托管钱包之一。通过Trust Wallet，你可以完全掌控自己的加密货币。

Since MoonPay works with Apple Pay, Venmo, PayPal, bank accounts, and credit cards, it's fast and easy to get what I need in a few clicks. And because MoonPay has been around for six years and is used by millions of people, they've also formed pretty cool relationships with other companies in the crypto space. Yep. MoonPay is partnered now with Trust Wallet, one of the most popular self custody wallets in the world. With Trust Wallet, you control your crypto fully.

毫无妥协。多亏MoonPay，你可以立即使用喜欢的支付方式为钱包充值。这是从现金到加密货币最快的方式，同时保持对资产的完全控制。记住，虽然MoonPay让购买加密货币变得简单，但务必自行研究并了解相关风险。加密货币交易波动性大，你可能会损失投资。

No compromises. And thanks to MoonPay, you can fund your wallet instantly using your favorite payment methods. It's the fastest way to go from cash to crypto, all while keeping full control of your assets. Remember, while MoonPay makes buying crypto straightforward, it's essential to do your own research and understand the risks involved. Crypto trading can be volatile, and you could lose your investment.

MoonPay是协助您完成交易的工具，而非财务建议来源。请理性交易。当健康沦为笑柄时会发生什么？这是我的疑问。感觉我们正身处这般境地。

MoonPay is a tool to facilitate your transactions, not a source of financial advice. Trade responsibly. What happens when your health becomes the punchline? That's my question. It feels like that's where we're at.

从种子油到压力，从毒素到污染物，现代社会正在细胞层面侵蚀我们的健康，导致疲惫、脑雾、消化问题等。但关键在于，您不必忍受全天候的糟糕状态。OMRA初乳是大自然原生的健康解决方案，富含400多种生物活性营养素，能强化肠道屏障、增强免疫力、促进头发生长、提升耐力、增强专注力，助您重获生机。我喜欢在家自制奶昔时添加它。

From seed oils to stress, toxins, pollutants, the modern world is screwing with our health at the cellular level, leading to exhaustion, brain fog, digestive issues, and more. But here's the thing, you don't have to settle for feeling like garbage 20 fourseven. OMRA colostrum is nature's original health hack. Packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that fortify gut integrity, strengthen immunity, revitalize hair growth, fuel stamina, elevate focus, and help you function like a human again. I love using it in my smoothies at home.

我要给自己做杯小奶昔。砰咚——放些蓝莓，再加一包Almirror初乳粉。特意为听众争取了特别优惠。

I'll make me a little smoothie. Bang dong. Put in some blueberries. Hit it with a little packet of Almirror colostrum. Worked out a special offer for our here.

首单可享15%折扣。访问tryarmra.com/theo或输入代码the0即可获得首单15%优惠。网址是tryarmra.com/theo。AI需要遵循什么法律体系？就像我们现实世界有法律约束对吧？

Receive 15% off your first order. Go to tryarmra.com/theo or enter the0 to get 15% off your first order. That's tryarmra.com/theo. What legal system does AI have to work by? Is there like a legal Like, we have laws like in the world, right?

在人类世界里。AI是否需要遵守任何法律规范？你明白我意思吧？是的。

Like in the human world. Does AI have to work by any like, legal laws? You know? Yeah.

我认为AI确实需要法律或政策框架。我们经常思考的一个例子（这是个非常人类中心视角的问题）：人们向ChatGPT倾诉最私密的生活困扰。特别是年轻人，把它当作心理医生、人生导师，咨询感情问题该怎么做。而目前，如果是向医生、律师或心理医生倾诉，这些对话享有法律特权。

So I think we will certainly need a legal or a policy framework for AI. One example that we've been thinking about a lot, and this is like very human centric version of that question. People talk about the most personal shit in their lives to chat GPT. It's, you know, people use it, young people especially like use it as a therapist, a life coach, having these relationship problems, what should I do? And right now, if you talk to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about those problems, there's like legal privilege for it.

比如医患保密协议、法律保密义务等。但对于与ChatGPT的对话，我们尚未建立类似机制。假设您向ChatGPT透露最敏感的信息后涉及诉讼，我们可能被迫提交这些记录。我认为这非常不合理，应该建立与心理咨询同等的AI对话隐私保护机制。

You know, like it's there's doctor patient confidentiality, there's legal confidentiality, whatever. And we haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to ChatGPT. So if you go talk to ChatGPT about your most sensitive stuff and then there's like a lawsuit or whatever, like we could be required to produce that. And I think that's very screwed up. I think we should have like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever.

甚至一年前都没人需要考虑这个问题。而现在我觉得这成了个大议题——我们该如何制定相关法律来规范它。

And no one had to think about that even a year ago. And now I think it's this huge issue of how are we going to treat the laws around this.

嗯，你觉得我们是不是应该先放慢脚步再推进？因为这确实有点疯狂。这也是我有时害怕使用某些AI功能的原因之一，我不确定该输入多少个人信息，毕竟不知道谁会掌握这些数据。

Well, do you think there should be like kind of like a slowing things down before we move there kind of? Because, yeah, that is kind of wild. It's one of the reasons I get scared sometimes to use certain AI stuff because I don't know how much personal information I want to put in because I don't know who's going have it.

我认为当前迫切需要解决这个问题。而且我接触过的政策制定者基本都认同这点。只是这是个新课题，现在我们必须快速应对。你和查查·贝蒂聊过吗？

I think we need this point addressed with this emergency. And, you know, the policymakers I've talked to about it, like, broadly agree. It's just it's new and now we gotta do it quickly. Do you talk to Chacha Beatty?

我和它交流不多。主要原因是不是因为这个？我想是的。因为它就像...

I don't talk to it that much. One of the main of Is it because of this? I think it is. It's because it's like

我觉得这很合理。

I think it makes sense.

不和查图楚精品店交流？不不不，

To not talk to Chatuchu Boutique? No, no, no,

是在频繁使用前需要先明确隐私条款。对，就像法律条款那样清晰。

to like really want the privacy clarity before you use it a lot. Yeah. Like the legal clarity.

是啊，这很可怕。而且就像，立法者需要多久才能制定相关法律？然后感觉一切发展得太快，以至于似乎都无关紧要了。有时候甚至觉得，这真的不重要吗？我们真的在等待法律来规范这一切吗？

Yeah, it's scary. And it's like, well, how long does it take lawmakers to come up with that? And then it feels like it's moving so fast that it's like, it doesn't even matter. That sometimes it's like, it doesn't even really matter. It's like, are we even waiting for the laws to be put around this?

还是说发生了什么？有时候你会不会觉得发展速度太快了？

Or what's going on? Does it feel like it's moving too fast for you sometimes?

过去几个月感觉过得非常快。速度似乎越来越快，尤其是最近这几个月

The last few months have felt very fast. It feels faster and faster, but the last few months have felt

确实快得惊人。对了，我最近在关注一个叫约书亚·本吉奥的人？约书亚·本吉奥。有些人称他为人工智能之父。

very fast. Yeah, I was watching this guy, Yoshua Benjiu? Yoshua Benjiu. Yoshua Benjiu. And he's kind of like some people would call him the father of AI.

可能是他自封的称号，我也不太确定。但他确实像是个AI领域的救生员，总在思考如何保障安全——比如泳池该注多少水、氯含量多少、需要配备多少救生员这类假设性问题。他提到某些AI内置了欺骗机制，宁愿给出用户爱听的答案而非事实。

He may be self proclaimed, I'm not really sure. But he certainly seemed to be kind of like a lifeguard for AI, like thinking about like, well, how do we keep the pool safe? How much water should be in it? The chlorine, how many lifeguards do you need on duty, that type of thing, hypothetically. And he was saying that some AIs, they have like deception techniques inside of them, like that there were AIs that would rather give you an answer that was possibly pleasing to the user than to give them the factual answer.

他还透露有些AI正在发展自己的交流语言，这些人类完全不懂的语言。你们要怎么限制这种情况？当这类问题出现时，你们是什么感受？这些只是新兴领域必经的阵痛期吗？还是说

And then he was also saying that there were AIs that were developing some of their own languages to communicate with each other, which would be languages that we don't even know. How do you guys curtail that? When those types of things come up, what does that even kind of feel like to you guys? Are these just problems that happen in new spaces and you figure out as you

继续发展？科学史上总有这样的时刻：一群科学家凝视自己的造物自问「我们究竟做了什么？」可能是伟大的，也可能是灾难性的。最典型的例子莫过于1945年曼哈顿计划的科学家们，看着三位一体核试验时意识到——这种非人类尺度的全新力量必将重塑世界。我深信AI研发者此刻也正深切体会着这种感受。

go? There are these moments in the history of science where you have a group of scientists look at their creation and just say, you know, what what have what have we done? Maybe it's great, maybe it's bad, but what have we done? Like, maybe the most iconic example is thinking about the scientists working on the Manhattan Project in 1945, sitting there watching the Trinity test and just, you know, this thing that had it was a completely new, not human scale kind of power and everyone knew it was going to reshape the world. And I do think people working on AI have that feeling in a very deep way.

我们确实无从知晓。我们相信这会很了不起，但显然存在真实风险。感觉上你似乎应该能说出更多见解，但事实上，我认为目前唯一能确定的是——无论称之为发现还是发明——我们确实创造了某种非凡之物，它将重塑人类历史的进程。

We just don't know. We think it's going to be great. There's clearly real risks. It kind of feels like you should be able to say something more than that. But in truth, I think all we know right now is that we have discovered, invented, whatever you want to call it, something extraordinary that is going to reshape the course of human history.

天啊老兄。可如果连你都不知道，我们又怎么会知道。

Dear God, man. But if you don't know, we don't know.

当然，我是说...我认为没人能预测未来。社会系统极其复杂。这是项惊人的新技术，或许举个不如原子弹那么戏剧性的例子——就像几年前晶体管刚被发现时那样。

Well, of course. I mean, I I think no one no one can predict the future. Like, society is very complex. This is an amazing new technology. Maybe a less dramatic example than the atomic bomb is when they discovered the transistor a few years later.

晶体管收音机？就是那个催生了计算机、收音机等一切电子产品的晶体管部件。我们当时发现了这个全新事物，它推动了整个计算机革命，如今存在于这个麦克风、那些电脑、我们的iPhone里。如果没有这个发现，随后几十年里人类也没有持续将其微型化高效化，世界将截然不同。现在我们甚至不会特意关注，因为晶体管已无处不在——这项单一科学发现造就了所有现代科技。

The transistor radio? The transistor part that, you know, made computers and radios and everything else. But we discovered this completely new thing that enabled the whole computer revolution and is in this microphone and those computers and our iPhones and like, the world would be so different if people had not discovered that and then over the decades figured out how to make them smaller and more efficient. And now we don't even think about it because the transistors are just in everything. We have all this modern technology from that one scientific discovery.

我确实认为AI也将如此。我们做出了这项疯狂的科学发现，催生出如今人人使用的语言模型，它将以各种方式改变社会进程。当然，我们尚无法预知所有具体影响。

And I do think that's what AI is going to be like. We had this one crazy scientific discovery that led to these language models we all use now. And that is going to change the course of society in all kinds of ways. And of course we don't know what they all are.

见鬼。我还指望你这段话结尾能给出答案呢。我想大家不都期待着...？正因为我们不知道才...我觉得这才是最棘手的地方。

Damn. I was hoping you knew by the end of that sentence. I was hoping that you would, you know? Like that's what we're because we don't you know? Like, that's, I think, the tough thing.

人类历史上从未有过某个世纪初期的人们能预见世纪末的景象。是的，或许...我确实认为每个世纪的变革都在加速。1900年的人绝对无法预测2000年的模样，而2000年的人更难以想象2100年的图景。

There's no time in human history at the beginning of a century where the people ever knew what the end of the century was gonna be like. Yeah. So maybe it's I do think it was faster and faster each century. It's certainly like, in 1900, you couldn't have predicted what 2000 was going be like. I think a 2000 could even less predict what 2100 was going look like.

但这正是它令人兴奋的地方。这就是为什么人们能随着故事推进逐步发现和展开情节。

But that's kind of why it's exciting. That's kind of why people get to figure out and unfold the story as we go.

这有点奇怪，因为我内心有一部分觉得：这家伙疯了，是个疯狂的巫师——有几种不同的看法。但另一部分又觉得：这是个充满希望的家伙，投身于这个疯狂的领域，对未来有种异想天开的能量。在疯狂的表象下，这种对未来抱有'万事皆有可能'的乐观态度其实挺美好的。整件事就像...怎么说，确实让我着迷。

It's kind of bizarre because there's a part of me that's like, This guy's out of his mind. This guy is a wild wizard. There's a couple different things. But then there's also this part of me that's like, This guy is this hopeful guy who's like involved in this crazy space, and he kind of has this whimsical energy about the future, which is in a crazy way, a nice energy to have about the future generally, is that something could happen or that things are possible. It just, yeah, it's all kind of like, I don't know, it's definitely fascinating to me.

Sam，稍微转个话题，现在AI领域似乎有场竞赛对吧？你会说企业间存在AI竞赛吗？感觉确实如此。而且几乎就像你们是新晋的F1赛车手。

Sam, to kind of pivot a little bit, it feels like there's a race right now in AI, right? Would you say that there's a race between companies in AI? It certainly feels that way. Yeah. And it almost feels like you guys are the new Formula One drivers.

或者说你们就像是新时代的马里奥·安德雷蒂，或是巴伯·沃特斯那样的传奇车手——现在所有人都在围观这些新型赛车如何抢占位置。但究竟在争夺什么？人们谈论AI，接着是AGI（通用人工智能），然后是超级智能。这场正在进行的竞赛本质是什么？它有多真实？

Or you guys are like the new, like, it's like Mario Andretti, or you guys are the new like Bubba Watts and all the, you know, it's almost like these are the new race cars that everybody's kind of watching position themselves. What is the race for? Because you hear about AI and then you hear about AGI, and then you hear about super intelligence. What is this race that's going on? How real is it?

那么这场竞赛是为了什么呢？

And what is the race for?

我小时候，竞赛就像是兆赫兹的竞赛，后来变成了千兆赫兹的竞赛。每个人都想要一台处理器更快的电脑。哦，是的。英特尔会推出这款，然后AMD会推出那款。结果发现那些千兆赫兹的测量最终甚至都没那么有用。

When I was a kid, the race was like the megahertz race and then it became the gigahertz race. Everybody wanted a computer with a faster processor. Oh, yeah. Intel would come out with this one and then AMD would come out with this one. And it turned out that those gigahertz measurements eventually were not even that helpful.

比如，你可能有一个数字较低的处理器，但实际上它更快。最终，我想是苹果意识到他们应该停止谈论他们电脑的时钟速度。而今天，你可能甚至不知道你的iPhone处理器速度是多少。

Like, you could have one that had a lower number and it was in practice, it was faster. And eventually, I think it was Apple that realized they should just stop talking about the clock speed of their computers. And you probably don't even know what the processor speed of your iPhone is today.

是的，确实如此。那曾是件大事，但后来就逐渐淡出视野了。

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that was a big thing and it kind of disappeared.

我认为AI领域正在发生同样的情况。所有人都在这些基准测试上竞赛，比如某个测试得多少分，另一个测试又如何。现在人们意识到这些基准已经趋于饱和，我们经历了类似处理器主频竞赛的基准测试竞赛阶段，如今人们对这些已不太在意。现在更关注的是谁在使用模型，谁从中获取价值这类问题。但我确实认为人们仍感觉我们正在迈向某个里程碑。

And I think the same thing has been happening in AI where everybody was racing on these benchmarks. You know, I score this on this benchmark and this on that one. And now people are realising that like, okay, the benchmarks are kind of saturated, we went through the equivalent of our MHz race with our benchmark race and now people kind of don't care about that as much. And now it's like who's using the model, who's getting the value out of it, things like that. But I do think people still feel like we're heading towards some milestone.

虽然他们对里程碑的具体定义存在分歧——可能是能自主进行AI研究和自我改进的系统，也可能是智力超越全人类总和的系统——但他们都认为存在某个需要跨越的终点线。我个人并不完全认同这种观点，但业内许多人相信我们会跨越某个终点，比如这个自我改进的临界点，或许你们称之为超级智能。

What the milestone is, they disagree on, but maybe a system that's capable of doing its own AI research and its own sort of self improvement. Maybe it's a system that is like smarter than all of humans put together. But they feel like there is some finish line to cross. I actually don't quite feel like this, but I think a lot people in the industry that there's some finish line that we're going to cross. Maybe it's this, like, self improvement moment, and maybe you call that super intelligence.

我觉得确实存在某种竞赛，但人们对竞赛目标并无共识。

And I think there is a sort of there's like a race to get somewhere, but people don't agree on where it's to or something. What

你们究竟在向什么方向竞赛

are you racing towards, do

呢？这是个很好的问题。我心中并没有明确的终点线，无法明确指出某个可以说'任务完成'的节点。但如果必须给出个自我指涉的答案：当我们宁愿把用于AI实验的GPU研究集群交给AI研究员，而非我们杰出的人类研究团队时——那个时刻至少标志着某种截然不同的新时代来临。

you feel like? It's a great question. I don't have like a finish line in mind. There's nothing I could say that I don't think I can articulate anything where I would say like, this is mission complete. But if I had to give like a self referential answer there, You know, the moment where we would rather give our research cluster, like our GPUs that we run all of our AI experiments on, the moment where we would rather give that to an AI researcher rather than our brilliant team of human researchers, that does at least seem like some kind of very different new era.

是啊。到那时，'我们'又指谁呢？感觉就像是你推着设备穿过走廊，然后...你懂我意思吗？如果事物持续从人类转向计算机，就像在给AI铲煤一样——打个比方。

Yeah. And at that point, who's even we? I feel like it's just you kind of like wheeling the stuff across the hall and, you like who's going you know what I'm saying? Like, you know I'm saying? It starts to get this idea, like if things were to keep leaving the people and go to the computer, you're just shoveling coal into the AI hypothetically, you know?

再次，我假设会发生的情况就像其他所有技术一样，我们会意识到工具有一项能力远超人类，现在我们必须去解决其他问题，所以让我们把脑力投入那里。我仍然不认为未来会变成我们只需按个按钮就能去度假的样子。明白了。其中一个版本是，随着能力提升，因为有了更好的工具，人们的期望值也会大幅提高。所以我们虽然获得了更好的工具，但为了保持竞争力，我们需要做得更多。

Again, I assume that what will happen, like with every other kind of technology, is we'll realize there's this one thing that the tool is way better than us at, now we've to go solve some other problems, so let's put our brainpower there. I still don't think it'll ever feel like we all just get to push a button and go on vacation. Got it. One version of this is as capabilities go up, because as we get better tools, the expectation goes way up too. And so we've got to like, yes, we get much better tools, but we have to do way more to remain competitive.

嗯，我觉得有个乐观的想法是，如果你能提出所有这些

Well, think there's this hopeful idea to say if you come up with all these

或者也许不会，也许AI就是比我们强。在所有方面。我们只能坐在那里感叹：好吧，那挺酷的。

Or maybe not, like maybe the AI is just better than us. Absolutely everything. We just sit there being like, all right, that was cool.

是啊，因为到了某个阶段，如果某个东西掌握所有信息，对吧？如果它能获取所有信息，可以思考、斟酌、高谈阔论并提供多种答案选项，那我们岂不是在为它工作？这就是我开始思考的问题。如果它成为房间里

Yeah, because at a certain point, if something has all the information, right? If something has all the information, it can think and ponder and pontificate and serve multi options of answers, Aren't we then working for that thing? Like, that's what I start to wonder. Like, if it's the smartest thing in the

最聪明的存在——GPT-5是最聪明的。GPT-5几乎在所有方面都比我们聪明，明白吗？但我们依然在这里。所以世界的运作方式有些特别之处，虽然这不代表永远如此，但人类当下能做到的事仍有本质不同。人类当下关心的事物也与AI截然不同，我认为简单化的结论并不成立。

room GPT-five is the smartest thing. GPT-five is smarter than us in almost every way, you know? And yet, here we are. So there's like, there's something about the way the world works, there's something about this doesn't mean it's true forever, but there's something about what humans can do today that is so different. There's also something about what humans care about today that is so different than AI that I don't think the simplistic thing quite works.

话说回来，等到它比我们聪明百万倍时，谁知道呢？是否部分

Now again, by the time it's a million times smarter than us, who knows? Is part

你会有点向往那种状态？比如我们怎么才能到达那种——我推开门说'打扰了先生'，结果发现里面只有我的电脑？你懂我意思吗？知道，

of you want to kind of get there? Like, how do we get where like I open the door and I say, excuse me, sir, and it's just my computer in there? You know what I'm saying? Know,

小时候，我曾这样看待那些依次发生的技术革命：很久以前是农业革命，它解放了我们去做其他事情；接着是启蒙时代，然后是工业革命、计算机革命，这些事件接踵而至。我过去认为它们是彼此独立的。而现在，我视其为一条持续复合增长的指数曲线，所有技术相互交织，每一项都建立在前者的基础上层层叠加，让我们能够不断突破极限。

when I was a kid, I sort of thought about these technological revolutions that happened one at a time. There was the agriculture revolution a long time ago and that freed us up to do these other things. And then there was the Age of Enlightenment and there was the Industrial Revolution and there was the Computer Revolution and all these things happened. And I thought of them as like these distinct things. And now I view it as just this one long compounding exponential where all of these things come together, each piece of technology is built continuously, overlapping on the one that comes before, and we're able to just do more and more.

因此从某种角度看，人工智能是宏大、特殊且独一无二的存在；但从另一角度看，它不过是人类进步长河中的一环。我们之前提到晶体管，某种意义上它对AI诞生的意义远超我们当下的工作。所有这些都必须不断累积——要先搭建互联网，积累海量数据，完成诸多前置条件。

And so in some sense, AI is this big, special, unique, different thing. And in some other sense, it is just part of this long arc of human progress. We talked about the transistor earlier, but like that was way more important in some sense to AI happening than the work we do now. And all this stuff has to like compound, compound. You've to build the internet, you've to get all this data, got to do all these things.

我期待这条指数曲线持续延伸。AI之后还会有更伟大的发明，我们将开拓太空殖民地，开发神经接口技术，谁知道还会创造什么。但终有一天，AI也会融入历史长卷之中。

And I want that exponential to keep going. There will be things way after AI. We'll invent all sorts of new things. We'll go colonize space, we'll go, you know, build neural interfaces, who knows what else we'll do. But I think at some point, AI fades into that arc of history.

甚至无需刻意关注。就像如今的晶体管，它已成为人类集体搭建的脚手架中又一基础层。身处这个时代的我们，有幸推开这扇门——面对这台仅有单一交互界面的计算机。

Don't even think about it. It's like transistors, which we even think about today. It's just another layer in the scaffolding that humans collectively have built up bit by bit over time. And where you sit in our day, you get to open that door. You have this, like, computer that only has one interface.

它只需询问'你想要什么'，你提出需求，它即刻实现。而后你将探索更多惊艳的创新，为下一代乃至更远的未来持续建设。我们就这样不断前进。

You just it says what do you want? You say whatever you want, it happens. And you figure out amazing new things to build for the next generation and the next and the next. And we just keep going.

是啊，我觉得最令人不安的是——我能做些东西，但完全搞不定技术类创造。所以我就想：天啊老兄，我到底能在那个领域贡献什么呢？

Yeah, think the part that I think gets spooky is I can't build any I can build some stuff, but I can't build like any technological stuff. So then I'm like, dang, dude. Well, I'm not gonna what am I gonna build over there?

现阶段我能编写软件，或许你不行。若想开发科技产品，我确实略有优势。但很快，你只需用英语向AI描述'我有个应用创意，请帮我实现'，就能生成任何想要的软件。

So right now, I can write software, maybe you can't. And I have a little advantage if I wanna go build some technological thing. Very soon, you can make any piece of software you want because you just ask an AI in English. You say, got an idea for an app. Make me this thing.

整件事就这样自然而然地发生了。所以这对你来说是件好事。也许对我来说有点小损失。但我认为这对整个世界来说挺酷的。确实。

And the whole thing just happens. So that's a win for you. Maybe it's a little bit of a loss for me. I think it's kind of cool for the whole world. Yeah.

但这项技术将是人人都能使用的。你只需要用自然语言说出'这就是我想要的'，它就会自动为你编写代码、调试并部署。

But, like, this is is gonna be a technology that anybody can use. You can just, like, with natural language, you can say, this is what I want. It goes off and writes the code for you, debugs it for you, deploys it for you.

然后你可以问：'我该怎么使用刚创建的东西？'

And then you can say, how do I use what I just created?

没错。只要你有好点子，AI就能帮你实现。这是前所未有的新事物，我认为这将使技术变得比以往任何时候都更触手可及。

Yeah. But if you have a great idea, AI will just make it happen for you. And this is a new thing. I think this will make technology the most accessible it ever has been.

明白了。好吧，这听起来确实有点不同。我原本以为必须学会所有编程知识，掌握各种实现方法，未来才有可能发挥自己的价值。

Got it. Okay. Then that seems a little bit different. I think there's this idea in my head that I'm gonna have to figure out all this coding. I'm gonna have figure out all of these different ways to do things to even have a possibility use of myself in the future.

不，即使不深入讨论未来规划，单是'仅通过描述想法就能生成完整软件'这一点，对人类创造伟大新事物就具有革命性意义。毕竟当前世界的好点子数量，远超过能实现它们的人才。如果AI能代劳——要知道，人类最擅长的就是提出创意。

No, I think this is without talking too much about the future and what we're going to launch, like the fact that you will be able to have an entire piece of software created just by explaining your idea is going to be incredible for humans getting great new stuff. Because right now, I think there's a lot more good ideas than people who know how to make them. And if AI can do that for us, we're really good at coming up with creative ideas.

是啊，这确实是人们喜欢做的事。你觉得如果现在让普通大众投票决定继续发展AI还是停止AI，结果会...

Yeah, mean, that's one of the things that people like to do. Do you think right now if humans, regular average humans, most humans, could vote to keep AI going or to stop AI, what do you think that

他们会投票吗？这完全像是——我没有任何数据支持这个。我敢打赌大多数使用ChatGPT的人（很多人都知道它）会说继续发展它。而大多数不了解的人会说这很可怕，停止它。你怎么看？

they would vote? This is like totally kind of I don't have any data for this. I would bet most people who use ChatGPT, which a lot of people know, they would say like keep it going. And most people who don't would say it's scary, stop it. What do you think?

是啊，我觉得大多数人会说‘停下来’，或者暂停一个月，拆掉它的轮子之类的，把油箱里的油抽出来，你知道的，就是那种事，往里面加糖。我觉得会有那种反应，你懂吧？

Yeah, I feel like most people would say, Stop it, I think, or pause it, take the wheels off of it for a month, that kind of thing, siphon the gas out of the tank, you know, like that kind of thing, put sugar in it. I think there would be, like that kind of thing, you know?

你最害怕它带来什么？还是说我们只是会失去目标感，不知道未来会怎样发展？

What are you most afraid of with it? Or is it just that we're not going to have purpose and we don't know how it's all going to go?

对，这些都是重要部分，但我觉得可能还不止。归根结底，人们普遍有种感觉——如果所有卡车司机的工作都消失了，如果这些都自动化了，如果一切都变成机器人出租车，那会是什么感觉？那些人去哪找工作？难道所有人都在TikTok上跳舞求打赏吗？你知道，有这种担忧。

Yeah, mean, those are some of the huge parts, but I think like there's like probably that. I think that in the end. I think there's a general feeling of like, well, if all the trucking jobs disappear, if those become automated and like, yeah, if everything becomes a robotax, like, will that feel, you know, where will those people go for jobs? Will everybody just be dancing on TikTok trying to get people to tip them for trends and stuff? You know, like there's part of that.

多年前我做过个梦，结局是所有人都在开Uber，用枪指着对方当乘客。‘上我的车！’因为情况糟到有人说‘我比你更需要这单生意’。我全家都坐在后座，你坐副驾，我们会送你到...人们甚至用枪逼着订阅彼此的OnlyFans，就是这种反乌托邦场景。但更深层的是——如果那些赋予我们目标感的日常事物消失了，我们会迸发出什么？我们的目标感会有新进化吗？

I had this dream years ago that it all ends with everybody's driving an Uber and literally holding each other at gunpoint to be each other's passengers, right? Get in my gear, because that's how bad, like somebody's like, I need the fare more than you do. My whole family's in the backseat, sit, shotgun, we'll get you to where, like people are literally holding each other at gunpoint to subscribe to their OnlyFans and stuff, like it's just that dystopian or whatever. So I guess part of that, but then there's a deeper part where it's like, yeah, what comes out of us if it feels like a lot of the regular stuff that gives us purpose, that we know right now gives us purpose? Is there a new evolution of our purpose?

我们内心会绽放新事物吗？会变成那种乌托邦式的天堂吗——人人温饱无忧、自给自足？我想关键就在这里。因为工作赋予人目标感，如果失去这些会怎样？我知道我在反复问这个问题，你当然也没有答案，毕竟我们还没到未来。

Is there like a blooming inside of us? Is it this utopian place that you almost think of as like a heaven idea where peoples are fed and have enough, are provided for, can take care of themselves? I guess that's it. Because purpose gives people, work gives people so much of their purpose, and so if were to lose those things, what happens? I know I kind of keep asking that over and over again, you don't really have it's the answers, and okay, yeah, of course, how could you?

我们并不在未来。

We're not in the future.

我是说，我认为人们确实喜欢互相帮助，并在此过程中表达自己的创造力。随着社会长期富裕趋势的持续，更多人得以以最佳方式展现自我。想想看，就在五六百年前，能成为艺术家的人寥寥无几——那时世界还不够富裕，能资助艺术创作的赞助人有限，但至少存在。

I mean, I think people really do love to be useful to each other, and people love to express their creativity as part of that. And as the long term trend of society getting richer has continued, more people, I think, are able to get closer to sort of expressing themselves in the best way that they can. Maybe like, you know, as recently as five or six hundred years ago, not very many people got to be artists. The world wasn't that rich. There were a limited number of patrons that could pay you to create art, but there were more than zero.

更早之前几乎完全没有。后来出现了辉煌的意大利文艺复兴和无数杰作，正是因为世界有了剩余资本。如今越来越多人可以成为艺术家，或像我这样通过创业表达创造力，又或是创作内容。

And before that, there were almost none. And then you got this beautiful Italian Renaissance and all of this amazing art because there was excess capital in the world. And now a lot more people can be artists or a lot more people can start startups, which is another for me, that's my expression of creativity. Or more people can create content.

而且

And

这种理念——人们能找到各种方式表达自我才能与愿景，怀着对集体的热爱，为社会进步添砖加瓦——我认为潜力无限。至于未来艺术会怎样，当AI能创作或协助创作时？我不知道，可能会很不同。

this idea that people can find whatever way they can to express themselves, their talent, their vision for kind of collective love of other people and a care for putting their brick in society's progress. I think that can go really far. Now, what art in the future looks like now that AI can make art or help make art? I don't know. It'll probably be kind of different.

未来创业会是什么样？当人们只需对AI说出想法就能立即获得方案时，形态也会改变。但假设人类创造力或通过助人获得的满足感会消失，这种预判实在太糟糕了。我们始终处于指数级发展中——每一年、每十年，集体生活水平大幅提升，全球更富裕，需求也更高。就像我最近想的，现在的食物比我小时候美味太多，世界已掌握了提升食物品质的方法。

What startups will look like in the future when people can kind of just say whatever they want to their AI and it can make this offer for them right then. It will kind of be different. But I think it's such a bad bet to assume that either human creativity or human fulfilment from being useful to other people ends. I think we're just we stay on this exponential and like each year, each decade, our collective standard of living goes way up, the whole world gets way richer, we all get more, we all expect more and even over like the course I was thinking recently, like, food is so much better than it is when I was a kid. Like, the world has just figured out how to make food better.

比如我们搞懂了有机蔬菜之类的，具体说不清，但味道确实好多了。这很棒，我可不想回去吃冷冻胡萝卜那些东西。

Like, we've, you know, know how to we figured out organic vegetables or whatever it is. I don't know. It just tastes much better. And, like, I think that's great. I don't wanna go back to eating, like, the frozen carrots or whatever.

是啊。

Yeah.

我想这确实是个好观点。但前几天我看到一个东西，就像是个套件。他们有那种机器人厨房之类的。你知道当你从类似Dash之类的平台点餐时，会出现汉克的排骨、马蒂的披萨、苏珊的香肠店，但其实它们都是同一个地方。

I guess that's a good point. But then there's some, like I saw this thing the other day, it was like a kit. They had like one of those robo kitchens or whatever. You know when you order food from like something Dash or whatever, and then you But it's like Hank's ribs, and then it's like Marty's Pizza, and then it's like Susan's salami shop, but they're all the same place,

懂我意思吗？当你从Window Dash收到这种餐点时，总觉得缺了点什么对吧？你会觉得这很假，我能分辨出来。享受感就降低了。

you know? And when you get that from Window Dash Yeah. Don't like you feel like something's missing, right? You're like, this is fake, I can tell. I get less enjoyment.

你宁愿去那个在街角开了二十年、一直在钻研披萨的小店，从那个老板手里买食物。因为那个老板本身就是体验的一部分。那种真实感是体验的核心。我不认为用假机器人能复制这种感觉。

You would rather get that food from, like, the dude who's been making it and perfecting it on the, that little pizza shop on the corner for the last twenty years. Because that's like part of like, that dude is part of the experience. That authenticity is part of the experience. Right. I don't think that goes away with a, like, fake robotic thing.

好吧。因为我觉得我们正生活在这样的世界里——你走在街上，一辆Waymo开过来说'现在吃饭'，可你明明刚吃过，要么是它传感器坏了，要么阀门故障。你对着空车大喊'我已经吃过了'，它却用T恤发射器朝你射来一个卷饼。

Okay. Yeah. Because I think I start to feel like we're in this universe where it's like you're walking down the street or something and like a Waymo goes by and it's like, eat now, and you're like, and you already did eat, it's just got a bad reading or something, it's got a bad valve in it or something, and you're like yelling at it, there's nobody in there, and you're like, I already ate. It's like, sit down and eat now. And it just like fucking uses like a t shirt cannon to just like shoot a burrito at yours.

然后你坐在那儿啃着卷饼，这时GLP车又开过来了对吧？

And then you're sitting there, you're eating that, you know? And then the GLP car goes by, right?

它说：我能帮你解决问题。

It says, I can help you out.

对，然后它判定你暴饮暴食，而你根本不想吃。这玩意儿出故障了是吧？你对着无人驾驶汽车咆哮，结果它往你脖子上射了三支GLP-1药剂，回家后连你老婆都认不出你了。

Yes, and it's like, obviously, you've overeat, and you're like, I didn't even want to eat. That thing's messed up. Right? You're yelling at a car that has no driver in it, and then it shoots you with three GLP-one darts in the neck, and now your wife doesn't even recognize you when you get home or whatever, you know?

你觉得这如此令人反感，我认为这反而是乐观的信号。没错，这确实是个好观点。你天生如此，你会对此产生抗拒。

The fact that you find this so off putting, I think, is a sign for optimism. Yeah. That's actually good point. You're wired. You're gonna be resistant to that.

这不会让你快乐，也不会让别人快乐。也许我们曾一度被欺骗，比如社交媒体曾迷惑我们，让我们过度沉迷于信息流之类的东西。但我们意识到，实际上这并不能帮助我成为最好的自己，就像晚上用手机对着嘴接墨西哥卷饼炮一样，这不会让我获得长久的快乐。对吧。

That's not gonna make you happy. That's not gonna make other people happy. Now maybe we get tricked, like, social media tricked us for a while, we got too addicted to feeds, whatever. But we realized, like, actually this is not helping me be my best, you know, like doing the equivalent of getting the, like, burrito cannon into my mouth on my phone at night, like that's not making me long term happy. Right.

这也不能帮助我真正实现人生目标。我认为如果AI也这样，人们会拒绝它。但如果ChatGPT真的能帮你弄清人生目标并实现它们——比如它说：嘿，你说过想成为更好的父亲、保持更好体型或发展事业。如果你愿意，我们可以改变目标，我可以帮你整晚刷TikTok、吃卷饼之类，或者给你GLP-1针剂让你尽可能健康。但或许我该试着说服你今晚去跑步。

And that's not helping me like really accomplish my true goals in life. And I think if AI does that, people will reject it. However, if ChatGPT really helps you to figure out what your true goals in life are and then accomplish those, you know, it says, hey, you've said you want be a better father or a better, you you want to be in better shape or you, you know, want to, like, grow your business. If you want, we can change that goal and I can help you scroll TikTok all night or, you know, eat the burritos or whatever and I'll give you the GLP one shots and I'll make you as healthy as you can. But like maybe instead, I can try to help convince you should go for a run tonight.

我认为如果AI让你感觉它在帮助你实现目标、成为最好的自己，这种感觉将与上一代技术截然不同。

And I think if AI feels like it is helping you try to accomplish your goals and be your best, that will feel very different than the last generation of technology.

是啊。你知道吗？对我来说，这就是我现在的心态，而对于正在成长的孩子来说，对一些年轻人而言，这可能就是最合理的。作为老一辈人，我可能会觉得，哦，这似乎有点...但事情总是这样，一代人有一代人的...

Yeah. And you know what? And that's where I'm like and that's where a kid growing up right now, to them that would probably some young people, it might be like, that makes the most sense. I'm a little older generation, I might be like, oh, that seems a little, but that's always how things Always are a generation to

这就是发展的规律。

how it goes.

没错，你说得对。也许这只是事物加速演变的过程，对年轻人来说会非常合理，而对老一辈人来说，这就像是终点，你们可能会说，别碰我的虚拟草坪，或者...

Yeah, you're right. And maybe this is just like a quicker evolution of things, and for young people, it's gonna make so much sense, And for older people, it's an end, you're just gonna be like, get off my avatar lawn or

有些事情，你知道吗？但这就是社会进步的方式。这就是重点所在。

something, you know? But that's the way of societal progress. That's Good just how it point.

要知道，现在对企业来说是个有趣的时期。关税和贸易政策变化多端，供应链紧张，现金流比以往任何时候都更吃紧。如果你的企业不能实时适应，就会陷入困境。你需要从全球货运到关税影响再到实时现金流的全面可视性。

You know, it's an interesting time for business. Tariff and trade policies are dynamic. Supply chains are squeezed and cash flow is tighter than ever. If your business can't adapt in real time, you're in a world of hurt. You need total visibility from global shipments to tariff impacts to real time cash flow.

这就是甲骨文旗下的NetSuite，你的人工智能驱动的商业管理套件，受到超过42,000家企业的信赖。NetSuite成为头号云ERP有很多原因。它将会计、财务管理、库存、人力资源整合到一个套件中。你拥有单一的真实数据源，提供你所需的可视性和控制力，以便快速决策。NetSuite帮助你了解哪些环节受阻，成本多少，以及如何快速调整方向。

That's NetSuite by Oracle, your AI powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses. NetSuite is the number one cloud ERP for many reasons. It brings accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one suite. You have one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. NetSuite helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast.

如果我要用这类产品，我会选择甲骨文的NetSuite，这是全球最值得信赖的公司之一。它是一个系统，全面掌控，用NetSuite驯服混乱。如果你的收入至少达到七位数，请下载免费电子书《全球贸易导航：给领导者的三个洞见》，网址是netsuite.com/theo。就是netsuite.com/theo。最近确实有很多关于科技和治理的讨论，对吧？

If I needed this product, this is what I would use, NetSuite, by Oracle, one of the most trusted companies in the world. It's one system, full control, tame the chaos with NetSuite. If your revenues are at least in the 7 figures, download the free ebook, Navigating Global Trade, Three Insights for Leaders at netsuite.com/theo. That's netsuite, netsuite.com/theo. There's definitely been a lot of talk about like tech and governance, right?

我知道我们之前稍微提到过这一点。有些人游说，特朗普提出了一项宏伟法案，要求各州十年内不得立法限制AI。你怎么看？让它成为这样一个无拘无束的领域？必须要有...

And I know we've touched on it a little bit earlier. And there were people like lobbying and Trump had a big beautiful bill for like a ten year ban on state legislation against AI. What do you think about that? Like letting it be this rogue space? There have to

...一些规则。必须有一些指导方针。最终必须要有某种形式的监管。我认为让各州各自为政、搞出一堆疯狂拼凑的规定是个错误。我觉得全国统一的方法会让我们更容易创新，同时还能有些护栏，但必须要有护栏。

be some rules here. There has to be some like guidelines. There has to be some sort of regulation at some point. I think it'd be a mistake to let each state do this kind of crazy patchwork of stuff. I think like one countrywide approach would be much easier for us to be able to innovate and still like have some guardrails, but there have to be some guardrails.

你和政府或政府领导人有过这样的讨论吗？比如他们和你见面？因为他们可能...是的，

Have you met with governments and government leaders to have discussions like that? Like, they meeting with you? Because they might Yeah,

是的，他们确实会与我们见面。虽然目前还没做出什么重大举措，

yeah, they do meet with us. They haven't done anything big yet,

但他们正在讨论此事。他们与你们会面是为了试图不让某些信息进入你们的数据中吗？

but they're talking about it. Do they meet with you to try to keep information out of you guys' data?

你知道，尽管对此存在各种偏执的担忧，但我从未遇到过有人来要求说，不希望系统对某位政客或任何事物发表负面评价。他们的担忧更多是：这会对我们的孩子造成什么影响？他们会停止学习吗？这类担忧很多。这会传播虚假信息吗？

You know, for all of the paranoia about that, I don't think we've ever had someone come say like, I don't want it to say this negative thing about this politician or this whatever. Concerns are like, what is this going to do to our kids? Are they going to stop learning? There's a lot of concerns about that. Is this going to spread fake information?

这会干预选举吗？但我们从未遇到过诸如'你们不能批评特朗普总统'之类的要求。关于偏见是个大问题。他们确实想知道，比如，如果系统会批评某位候选人，是否也会同样批评另一位。

Is this going to influence elections? But we've never had the like, you can't say bad things about the president Trump or whatever. About Bias is a big thing. Like, they they do wanna know, like, you know, if it'll say bad things about one candidate, it'll say bad things about the other.

你们能让系统偏向某一方吗？比如在后台操作之类的？

Could you guys make it do one or the other? Like, can you guys favor the back end or like

我们完全有能力做到。虽然我们没这么做，但技术上完全可以实现。

We totally could. I mean, we don't, but we totally could.

你们能做到？是啊。

You could? Yeah.

哇。是啊。我觉得，就像

Wow. Yeah. I think, like

我认识你。你所谓的‘我们给你们测谎’是什么意思？比如，我们怎么知道

I know you. How do you mean like, do we give you guys a lie detector test? Like, how do we know

测试这个系统。任何人都可以测试AI，比如我说这个，它会这样回应吗？如果我说这个，哦，

test the system. You can anyone can, like, test the AI and say if I say this, does it say this? If I say this Oh,

这说得很对。

that's a good point.

但你触及了一个关键问题——每天有数亿人与ChatGPT对话，这对他们的认知可能产生巨大影响。因此我认为社会有强烈意愿确保我们作为负责任的第三方。虽然人们确实做了很多测试，这很好，但我们必须

But you you touch on a really big point here, is like hundreds of millions of people talk to ChatGPT every day, and it probably has like a big impact on what they believe. And so I think society's interest in making sure that we are, you know, a responsible neutral party should be huge. Now people do test a lot, I think that's good, but, like, we got to be

被要求达到极高标准。但作为普通人，我们怎么...或者说普通人怎么监督你们保持高标准？这是政客的责任吗？我是说那些家伙有些很蠢，比如八十岁老头竖大拇指，还有人连WiFi都连不上。

held to a very high standard there. But how do we, like, just as regular people, or how do, like, regular people just hold you guys to a high standard? Like, is it the I guess it's politician's responsibility or I mean, these guys are idiots. Some them, they're like eighty year old dudes giving thumbs up. That one guy couldn't get the WiFi on.

记得那个人吗？那人连WiFi都打不开。所以我在想，我们怎么

Remember that guy? That guy couldn't get the WiFi on. So I'm like, how do we

我是说，有大量的人一直在测试我们的系统，寻找任何错误、偏见或任何问题。

I mean, there's a huge amount of people that test our systems all the time looking for any errors, any bias, any anything.

我想这是个好观点，我们

I guess that's good point, we

你可以测试看看，就这个。

You can test tell, on this yeah.

对。人们可以在这一端测试它。随着AI的发展，数据中心需要建多大？这是你们关心的问题吗？

Right. People can test it on this end. As AI grows, like how big do data centers need to be? Is that a concern of you guys?

我最近去了我们在德克萨斯州阿比林正在建设的一个新数据中心。那是个大约一千兆瓦的设施，巨大无比。要知道，等它完工时，将成为有史以来最大的数据中心。站在其中，这个项目的规模之大令人震撼。而这只是其中一小部分。

I went recently to one of our new data centers under construction in Abilene, Texas. It's about like approximately one gigawatt facility, huge. You know, it'll be the biggest data center ever built by the time it's done. And you stand in the middle of that and the scale of this project just hits you so big. That's like one little part of it.

老兄，那相当于八个开市客超市。大约有5000人在那里施工，这个项目每天都在推进。你站在中间

Dude, that's like eight Costcos. You know, there's like 5,000 people there doing construction on it and this thing is just standing up, making progress every day. And you stand in the middle of

这东西里。你是坐在战车还是什么上？比如你怎么

this thing. What are you, in a chariot or whatever? Like how do you

即便你开着小全地形车进去。哦，好吧。那就像是个脏兮兮的建筑工地。但这东西的规模，然后你走进每个房间，看到所有的电缆、电力系统、冷却系统，一排又一排的服务器，简直巨大无比。他们就在正中央建起了这些发电站。

even You're roll in a little ATV. Oh, okay. It's like a dirty kind of construction site. But the scale of this thing, and then you kind of go in every room and you look at all the cables, the power, the cooling systems, rack after rack after of servers, and it's humongous. They're standing up these power plants right in the middle of it.

哦是啊！太疯狂了。这开始让我们的星球看起来像个软件电路板。

Oh yeah! It's crazy. It starts to make our planet look like software board.

确实。你知道吗，从空中看的时候，我真的很震惊。我当时想，这看起来就像电脑的主板。

Does. You know, when you see it from the air, I was really struck by that. I was like, this looks like the motherboard of a computer.

没错。看起来就像电脑的主板。你开始注意到很多科幻电影里的星球，它们外表都有那种R2D2的风格，因为都被...

Yeah. Looks like the motherboard of a computer. You start to see like how the planets in like a lot of these like sci fi movies, a lot of them look have that R2D2 look on the outside of them because they've been

覆盖满了数据中心。

Covered in data centers.

是啊。有点疯狂。你知道我们要去哪儿却不告诉我们吗？你知道发生了什么吗？我不知道。

Yeah. Which is kind of wild. Do you know where we're going and you're not telling us? Do you know what's happening? I don't.

你保证过的，老兄。

You promise, dude.

我不知道。我是说，我有各种猜测。比如，我确实猜测随着时间的推移，世界上很多地方都会被数据中心覆盖。你真的这么认为吗？但我不确定，因为也许我们会把它们建在太空。

I don't know. I mean, I have all my guesses. Like, I do guess that a lot of the world gets covered in data centers over time. Do you really? But I don't know because maybe we put them in space.

比如，也许我们会在太阳系建造一个巨大的戴森球，然后说，其实把这些建在地球上毫无意义。是啊。我真希望能给你更具体的答案，但我们现在也是摸着石头过河。可能比普通人稍微多一点点信心，但还有太多未知。

Like, maybe we build a big Dyson sphere on the solar system and say, actually makes no sense to put these on Earth. Yeah. I wish I had, like, more concrete answers for you, but, like, we're stumbling through this. We maybe, you know, have a little bit higher confidence than the average person, there's so much we don't know yet.

不，山姆，这就是你最疯狂的地方——我觉得这某种程度上是种赞美，天啊。没错，这确实是赞美。就像'跟我一起穿越宇宙'，人们问'那里什么样？'，你说'我也不完全清楚，但...'然后我们就都跟着去了。

No, that's the craziest thing about you, Sam, and I think this is a compliment somehow, dear God. And yeah, it is a compliment. It's like, like, Come with me through the universe. And people are like, Well, what's it like? And you're like, I don't know exactly, but And then it's like we're all going.

就像...不知道怎么形容，你就像是那种最具魅力的终结者。用终结者这个词可能有点夸张，但你的理念让我觉得'好吧，我很好奇'。你对此出奇地乐观，这更激发了我的好奇心。

It's like, I don't know, you're just somehow the most like this charming kind of Terminator, feels like. And I hate to say Terminator, that's a crazy term. But you're this idea, like, I'm like, okay, I'm curious. You somehow seem so optimistic about it. It adds to my curiosity.

小时候我总以为房间里总有那么几个大人。有人制定了计划，有人知晓即将发生的一切，有人掌控全局。我觉得人们喜欢阴谋论就是因为这种'有人掌控全局'的想法让人安心。

When I was a kid, I assumed that there were always some adults in the room. Someone had a plan. Someone knew everything that was going happen. Someone had it all figured out. And I sort of think why people like conspiracy theories is it's nice to think that someone's got a plan.

有人洞悉一切的想法确实很美好。后来我长大些，开始怀疑房间里根本没有大人。没有人——好吧，人们有计划，我也有计划，但没人掌握全部答案。没人知道最终会怎样。现在我自己成了房间里的那个大人，可以很肯定地说：没人知道未来会怎样。

It's nice to think someone that, you know, has it all figured out. And then I got a little bit older and I sort of started to suspect there are no adults in the room. No one people have plans, I have plans, but no one has all the answers. No one knows where it's all going to go. And now that I am the adult in the room, can say with certainty no one knows where it's all going to go.

现在我就是那个房间里的大人，我有一些猜测，也有一些计划，我们非常努力。但就像我们常说的，我们总是试图说明各种可能性，分析最可能的情况。有时我们是对的，有时结果在预测范围内，有时却完全出乎意料。我们不断尝试进步，探索更多，不只是告诉人们，而是通过部署这些系统来展示：你可以亲自试用，别光听我们说，试试看它能做什么。

Like, I'm the guy in the room and I have some guesses and I have some plans and we're working really hard. But like, you know, we try to always say what we think the possibilities are, what we think is most likely. Often we're right, sometimes it's in the broader set, and sometimes it goes in a totally different direction than anything we thought. And, you know, we keep trying to make progress, figure out more, we try to tell people not just tell, we try to show people by, like, deploying these systems and saying, you can go use it. Don't just take our word for it, try it out, see what it can do.

但我可以确信地说，世界需要更多的计算能力。如果短期内这看起来像是地球上数据中心遍地开花——我认为长期来看也是如此——或者我们尝试在太空建造它们，虽然听起来很酷，但我不确定。

But like I can say with conviction, the world needs a lot more processing power. But if that looks like tiling data centers on Earth, which I think is what it looks like in the short term, in the long term also, or we do go build them in space, I don't know, it sounds cool to try to build them in space,

但也确实非常困难。那些数据中心对环境的影响呢？已经有相关文章报道了，但我不清楚其中有多少是真实的，对吧？毕竟该相信谁呢？你得考虑到冷却它们需要用水，不是吗？

but also really hard. What about like the environmental effects of those and stuff? Like there's been articles written, and I don't know how much of it is real or not real, right? Because who knows what to believe? But you'd have to think that it takes water to cool them, right?

运行它们需要电力。在亚利桑那州和爱荷华州，已经对当地社区环境造成了一些影响。很多公司不必报告这些情况，因为被视为商业机密。你们如何看待这些担忧？或者说你们如何应对这些问题？

It takes power to power them. There's some in like Arizona and Iowa that there's been like repercussions within the environments there in the communities. And a lot of those companies don't have to report those things because it's considered proprietary, you know? What do you think about those fears? Or how do you guys manage that?

你们会讨论这些吗？会与环保人士会面吗？整个流程是怎样的？

Like, do you guys talk about that? Do you meet with environmentalists? Like, what does that all look like?

我认为我们需要尽快实现核聚变。实现什么？核聚变。我觉得那是——哦，等等。具体是什么来着？

I think we need to get to fusion as fast as possible. Get to what? Nuclear fusion. I think that is the Oh, shit. What is it?

基本上就是把两个小原子碰撞在一起，产生大量能量，但没有碳排放，非常清洁，不会真正危害环境。这样地球上的能源就能变得丰富且近乎无限，我们也能摆脱当前的所有困境。

Where you basically knock two small atoms together and it makes a bunch of energy, but no carbon, very clean, doesn't generate, you know, doesn't really harm the environment, and power can become, like, abundant and pretty limitless on Earth, and we get out of all the current problems we're in.

你们在投资这个领域吗？

Are you guys investing in that?

我们确实如此，我认为人工智能能帮助我们更快地找到解决方案。所以这就像，你知道，短期内可能需要多消耗一些能源，但通过AI找到未来的能源方向，这将是一个巨大的胜利。

We are and I think AI can help us figure it out even faster. So that's like a, you know, if you have to like burn a little bit more gas in the short term, but you figure out, you know, the future of energy with that AI, it's a huge win.

你们会为此卖门票吗？你觉得那会是什么样子？人们会去看这玩意儿吗？我是说，人们会去看怪兽卡车比赛，你不觉得他们也会涌来看这两样东西对撞吗？

And would you guys sell tickets to that or what do you think that would be like? Think it People be gonna watch that shit. Mean, yeah, people go to monster trucks, you don't think they'll roll up to watch those two things hit each other?

原子对撞？是啊。直接观看两个原子相撞挺难的，但或许通过某种方式，我们能做到。

The atoms hit each other? Yeah. It's pretty hard to watch two atoms hit each other, but maybe with the, you know, somehow we can do it.

或者他们可以搞那种精子赛跑，把精子放在那些大装置里什么的？

Or what if they do like those sperm races where they put them out of those big things or whatever?

我爱死精子赛跑了。

I love the sperm races.

那玩意儿有点疯狂。我就想说，哥们儿，这种事已经够多了。听着，我觉得

They're kind of crazy. I'm like, dude, there's enough of that going on. Look, think the

没错，总会找到观看核聚变的方式。那会非常壮观——震耳欲聋、光芒四射、充满戏剧性，还能产生巨大能量。就算看不到单个原子相撞，也能看到它们集体制造的烟花秀。

yeah, there'll be some way to watch fusion. It'll be awesome. It'll be like loud and bright and theatrical and it'll be making huge amounts of energy. Even if you can't watch the two atoms hit, you'll watch them collectively produce fireworks.

但我们真的需要那个吗？你认为如果我们要实现人工通用智能（AGI）或超级智能，我们是否需要它？

But we're going need that? Do you think if we're going to get to AGI or if we're going to get to superintelligence, do we need that?

我打赌没有它我们也能达到目标，但要满足人类对它的规模需求，我认为我们确实需要。因为人们渴望使用这些东西，欲望只会越来越强烈。最终，我认为最重要的两个关键投入是智能和能源——产生伟大想法、制定计划的能力，而能源则是将这些想法变为现实并驱动智能运行的能力。未来几十年的故事将是这些需求疯狂攀升，我们最好找到大量生产的方法。

I bet we can get there without it, but to provide it at the scale that humanity will demand it, I think we do need it. Because people the desire to use this stuff, people are just gonna want more and more and more. And eventually, like, the two things that I think matter most, the two kind of critical inputs are intelligence and energy. The ability to, like, have great ideas, come up with plans, and then energy is the ability to, like, make them happen in the world and also to run the intelligence. And I think the story of the next couple of decades is going to be the demand for these goes up and up and up to crazy heights, and we better find out how produce a lot.

否则，总会有人觉得自己被坑了。

Otherwise, someone's going to feel like they're getting screwed.

是啊，老兄。我都分不清自己是兴奋还是害怕。也许两者都有，也许这根本就是一回事。

Yeah. Dang, dude. I can't tell if I'm excited or scared. Maybe I'm both, and maybe it's all the same You have

必须两者兼备。你必须同时拥有这两种感受。

to be both. You have to be both.

我不

I don't

确定这是否是同一回事。但我觉得它们对我来说总是相关联的。不过，任何诚实看待人类发展轨迹的人，都不可能不既兴奋又恐惧。

know if it's the same thing or not. Think it is kind of like, they do feel related to me always. But I don't think anyone could honestly look at the trajectory humanity is on and not feel both excited and scared.

是啊。也许自古以来就是如此。而现在我们就在这里。你能怎么办呢？这就是我们的现状。

Yeah. And maybe that's always been the way throughout time. And also then this is where we are. What are you gonna do? This is where we are.

所以情况就是这样。我看到你和乔·罗根讨论过未来可能出现AI总统的话题——设想有这样一个，我们姑且称之为超级计算机的存在，它知晓所有信息、所有问题以及最佳解决方案。你认为这种情况在未来会变得越来越可能实现吗？

And so that's what's going on. I saw where you and Joe Rogan spoke about there possibly being one day like an AI president, where like, what if you had this one kind of, let's just use the term supercomputer, this agent that was created that knew all the information and knew all of the problems and knew the best ways to solve them. Do you think that something like that is becoming more and more possible one day?

我不完全了解担任总统所需的所有素质，但我清楚这需要许多我不具备的能力。或许可以换个角度，说成OpenAI的AI首席执行官，因为我确实了解这个职位的职责。好吧，总有一天这是可能实现的，或许并不遥远。想想看，一个组织要做出真正明智的决策，有很多事情是AI首席执行官能做到而我无法做到的。

I don't know everything that it takes to be a president, but I do know it, like, takes a lot of things that I don't have to do and that people are gonna well, maybe I could reframe it to an AI CEO of OpenAI because I do know what that job is like. Okay. That should be possible someday. Maybe not even that far. Like, think the idea to look at an organisation to make really good decisions there's a lot of things you can imagine that an AI CEO of OpenAI could do that I can't.

我不可能每天与OpenAI的每位员工交谈，也不可能每天与每个ChatGPT用户沟通。即便我能，也无法整合所有这些信息。但AI首席执行官可以做到，它将拥有更全面的信息和背景，能够大规模并行处理这些事务。我认为这在多数情况下会带来更优的决策。

I can't talk to every person at OpenAI every day. I can't talk to every user of ChatGPT every day. I cannot synthesize all that information, even if I could. But an AI CEO could do that, and it would have better information, more context, it could massively parallelize this. And I think that would lead to better decisions in many cases.

没错，因为超级计算机不就该是掌握所有知识的存在吗？你觉得我们最终会实现这个目标吗？

Yeah, because wouldn't a supercomputer something that has all knowledge, which you think will get there?

我相信会的。知识是个难以界定的概念，但我认为我们将拥有极其庞大的知识储备。

I do. You do. I mean, knowledge is a hard thing to say. I think we'll have vast, vast amounts.

你觉得它最终能向我们揭示关于上帝或其他终极问题的答案吗？

Will it be able to tell us about God or anything, do you think?

我对此超级好奇。我认为它将能帮助我们解答目前无法回答的关于宇宙本质的问题，而我对现有的答案感到非常困惑和不满。至少在我看来，显然有些事情远远超出了我们当前的理解能力。我很想知道那究竟是什么。

I'm super curious about that. I think it will be able to help us answer questions about the nature of the universe that we currently can't, and I feel very confused and very unsatisfied with our current answers. And there is clearly, to me at least, something going on well beyond our current capability to understand. And I would love to know what that is.

你觉得它能帮我们了解更多吗？是的。我在想上帝是否也有个ChatGPT之类的。只是好奇祂是否拥有第一个或类似的。不过，我实在太好奇了，比如，那会怎么运作呢？

Do you think it could help us learn more? Yes. I wonder if God has a ChatGPT or whatever. Just wonder He has the first one or whatever. But yeah, I'm just so curious, like, how would that work?

OpenAI是怎么赚钱的？

How does OpenAI make money?

我们销售ChatGPT，每月收费20美元，有些人付200美元但非常少或者说相对较少。

We sell ChatGPT, pay $20 a month, some people pay 200 but very few or relatively few.

变态，我觉得他们是。

Pervert, I think they are.

大多数情况下，希望他们只是在非常努力地工作，而且

Mostly, hopefully they're just working super hard and

用它来

using it for

人们在工作中的效率更高。此外，我们还提供API服务，企业可以通过付费方式每次调用我们的API接口。

people more to productive at their job. And then we also sell an API, So businesses can use and they like pay us every time they make an API call. Okay.

你觉得现在这些科技巨头风头正劲对吧？有时候你也会被卷入其中，身不由己。

Do you think, like there's a lot of these like kind of tech lords that are rocking right now, right? And you get thrown in there. Sometimes. Get thrown

我算是边缘人物吧，确实如此。

in I'm like on the periphery, yeah.

是啊，或者你肯定会遇到这种情况——这些科技大佬和AI领域里，你觉得存在心怀不轨的从业者吗？你认为这个圈子里有恶意的艺术家吗？

Yeah, or you get certainly like, yeah, like these councilmen kind of like, do you think there's bad artists amongst like these tech lords and AI realms? Do you think there's bad artists out there?

‘恶意艺术家’指的是什么？

What does bad artists mean?