第47集 - 连接咖啡农与烘焙师——与本杰明·帕斯的对话

对我们来说，看到人们蓬勃发展、实现目标，看到这些家庭能够团聚而不必因经济危机而被迫迁移，这就是一种成功。

And and for us, that's that's that's a a success to see people thriving, to see people reaching to their goals, to see these families, you know, like, stay together and have to migrate because, you know, like, of the of the economic crisis I can face.

所以这真的很好。

So it's been really good.

这真是一种福气。

It's been a blessing.

而且，我们只是希望复制这种模式，继续扩大规模，为生产商创造更多机会，让他们能将咖啡销往洪都拉斯以外的地方。

And, yeah, we just want to replicate that and continue growing it so we can open more opportunities for producers to to sell their coffees outside of Honduras.

你提到了移民，这正是我本集接下来要谈的话题。

Now you mentioned migration because that was my next topic in this episode.

你在你的地区或洪都拉斯整体上，或者在咖啡产业中，面临的最大挑战是什么？

What are the biggest challenges you face in your area or in Honduras in general or in coffee in general?

是的。

Yeah.

我想说有两个方面。

So I would say two things.

一个是天气模式的变化。

One is the is the weather patterns changing.

我们可以说这是气候变化。

We can say climate change.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有我们面临的劳动力危机，因为员工短缺。

And and the labor crisis that we're facing because of the lack of of of of employees.

这两者可以说是主要问题。

Those are kinda like the two things.

一方面，天气变化非常关键，因为我们看到了剧烈的变化，比如在不该下雨的时候下雨，延长了本不该有的夏季，导致开花时间错乱，害虫如咖啡叶锈病在以前没有出现过的地区蔓延，咖啡果小蠹也在以前没有的地方出现。

And one, the weather changes, that's been critical because we've seen drastic patterns happening, like getting rain when we're not supposed to get rain, having extended summers that are off season that are pushing for flowering to happen in distant in in different timing pests, you know, like, happening, like rust, coffee leaf rust spreading in in areas where we didn't have it before, broca showing up in places where we didn't have it before.

所以你能看到所有这些现象。

So you see all of these incidences.

比如，去年和今年早些时候，我们经历了大量降雨。

And, like, for example, last year and earlier this year, we had a lot of rain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比正常情况多得多，这影响了树木。

A lot more than than than normal, and that messed up with the trees.

我们遇到了很多赤锈病问题。

We had a lot of antarctonals problems.

我们在干燥过程中遇到了很多问题。

We had a lot of problems drying.

因此，尽管市场价格很高，人们还是极力继续按照往常的方式进行干燥和加工，导致杯测中有相当数量的缺陷咖啡。

So we had a decent amount of of defective coffees in the in in the cup because, you know, like, even though the market was very high, people really pushed to continue drying and processing the coffees the way they normally do.

由于天气状况，这非常具有挑战性。

And and because of the weather conditions, that was very challenging.

而且，是的，我们看到产量受到了影响。

And and, yeah, we're seeing the the production being affected.

每年咖啡生产都变得越来越困难，以至于我们根本无法预测每年会发生什么，一切都变得不可预知。

It's making coffee production harder and harder every year to the point that we don't really know what's gonna happen every year as everything is unpredictable.

对吧？

Right?

由于疫情之后以及洪都拉斯恶劣的条件，许多人选择移民离开这个国家。

And with the labor, after the pandemic and because of the difficult conditions that we have in Honduras, a lot of people have decided to migrate and leave the country.

尽管咖啡产业利润可观，很多人仍能赚到不错的收入，但许多从事农业的人已经失去了继续干下去的动力，决定前往美国。

Even though coffee is good and and people can can make good money, many many people working in agriculture have lost their incentive to continue, and they have decided to migrate to The States.

在西班牙，我并不怪他们，因为他们是在为自己和家人寻找机会。

In Spain, I don't blame them because they are looking for, you know, like, opportunities for themselves and their families.

对吧？

Right?

这极大地影响了咖啡的生产。

And and that has affected coffee production a lot.

洪都拉斯是一个拥有九百万人口的国家。

Honduras is a country with 9,000,000 people.

九百万，现在可能接近一千万了。

Nine probably close to 10 now.

过去，这九到一千万人口中通常有一百万人直接从事咖啡种植和采摘，因为咖啡是我们主要的产业和产品之一。

We're normally in the past, 1,000,000 of these nine, ten million will be directly working in coffees and harvest because coffee is one of the main industries we have and the main products we produce.

疫情之后，根据国家统计数据，有百分之十五的人口已经移民。

And after the pandemic, based on national statistics, the fifteen percent of the population has migrated.

哇。

Wow.

这是一个很大的数字。

Which is a lot number.

这是一个庞大的数字。

It's a big number.

有四十万十八岁的年轻人离开了这个国家。

400,000 kids 18 years old have left the country.

哇。

Wow.

主要前往美国。

Mainly going to The United States.

这显然影响了咖啡产业，因为咖啡是一个重要的行业。

And that affected coffee, obviously, because, you know, like, coffee is a big industry.

所以我们感受到了变化，尤其是在高峰期，人手少了很多。

So we felt the changes, and and there's a lot less people to especially to peak.

因此，由于供应不足，成本上升了。

So that has increased the the cost because of the availability.

所以生产成本提高了。

So cost of production has gone up.

我们不得不将所有这些成本转嫁到价格上，这真的很难平衡，努力让咖啡在经济上实现可持续发展。

And we have had to transfer all of this cost, right, to the price and and has been really difficult to kinda, like, match a balance and and try to make coffee sustainable in the economics.

所以我们正在思考最佳策略，未来五到十年的计划会是什么。

So we're trying to figure out what the best strategy is, what's gonna be, you know, like, the plan for the next five to ten years.

我们需要弄清楚这一点：如何保持质量，控制成本以实现盈利，同时也要考虑如何在未来保持竞争力，从而实现健康生产的平衡。

So we need to figure that out and how do we're going to be maintaining the quality, maintaining cost that can help us be profitable, and see how also how we can be competitive in the future so we can, you know, like, have a have a balance in in healthy production.

所以我有点天真。

So I'm a little naive.

比如，如果我店里一杯咖啡的成本上涨了，我就直接提价。

Like, for instance, if my costs are increasing in my store for a cup of coffee, I just increase the price.

顾客通常第一天会抱怨，但第二天就接受了。

And the customer, normally, they complain one day, and then the next day, it's okay.

反正我就是想喝咖啡，所以无所谓。

You know, I want the coffee anyway, so it doesn't matter.

咖啡采购商不也是这样吗？

Is it not the same with the coffee buyers?

或者

Or

对一些人来说，是的。

Some for some, yes.

对另一些人来说，他们有融资规定。

For others, you know, like, they they have financing regulations.

对吧？

Right?

但这并不容易。

And it's not that easy.

你知道的。

You know?

比如，人们在公司里都有利润率目标和指标。

Like and and, yeah, people have, you know, like, margin goals and and objectives in their companies.

有时候，真的很难去改变这些。

And sometimes, you know, like, it's really difficult to to to change that.

你知道的。

You know?

说起来有点奇怪，但有些人宁愿牺牲质量，买便宜的东西，也不愿多花钱。

Like, it's weird to say, but some people, you know, like, instead of, you know, like, paying more, they rather sacrifice quality and buy something for cheaper.

嗯。

Mhmm.

为了让生意继续下去，这样做并不理想，但我理解。

That is not as good just to, you know, like, make the business work, and I respect that.

你知道的？

You know?

这毕竟是生意。

Like, it's a business.

我不了解他们的烘焙厂。

I'm I I don't know their roasteries.

对吧？

Right?

所以我并不清楚他们的困难和所有情况。

And so I don't know their problems and everything.

但我们正在自己尝试这样做。

But we're trying to do that ourselves.

你知道的？

You know?

如果有什么东西涨价了，我们正在想办法，该怎么处理，并且跟买家沟通，说：嘿。

Like, if something got more expensive, we're trying to figure out what what we're going to do and and and communicate to the buyers and say, like, hey.

这就是我们目前面临的状况，我们只是希望得到支持，看看我们能一起做些什么。

This is what we're facing right now, and we're just expecting support and see what we can do together.

同时也要提升品质，因为品质好，你知道，分配咖啡豆就会更容易一些。

And also increase quality because with good quality, you know, like, it's gonna be, you know, like, easier to to to allocate coffees.

但我认为必须认识到，事情确实很有挑战性，我们需要想办法让消费者明白，鉴于当前的各种变化，我们确实需要为咖啡支付稍高一点的价格。

But I think there has to be an understanding that, you know, like, things are challenging, and we need to figure out how to, you know, like, make consumers recognize that we need to start, you know, like, pay a little bit more for for coffee based on all of the variables that are happening.

是的，我认为这就是我们的策略。

And, yeah, I think that's that's gonna be the strategy.

我们正在尽自己的努力。

And we're doing our part.

我们正努力让咖啡变得更好。

We're trying to make the coffee better.

我们正努力让咖啡更加可持续。

We're trying to make the coffee sustainable.

而且，希望市场能给予积极的回应。

And and, hopefully, you know, that we're gonna get a positive response from the market.

到目前为止，情况一直不错。

So far, it's been it's been good.

我们在合作咖啡项目中的合作伙伴都非常出色、响应迅速，但我们也确实经历了几年的挑战，是的。

The partners that we have in the relationship coffee program has been great and responsive and everything, but also, you know, like, we have had to face a few years that has been challenging Yeah.

对于咖啡行业而言。

For the coffee industry.

因此，我们希望未来能带来转机，我们能够推动并取得成功，让所有人都对这份生意感到满意。

So we're hoping that the future will provide, and we were able to, like, drive and succeed, and everyone will be happy with with with the business.

所以，我们期待能一起找到解决办法。

So fingers crossed that we're gonna be able to to figure it out together.

而且，我认为我们只需要互相支持，妥善沟通正在发生的事情，并希望最终消费者能够理解。

And and, yeah, I think we just need to support each other and and communicate properly what's happening and hoping that the final consumer is going to understand.

对我来说，我觉得咖啡界有时存在一些双重标准。

I I mean, for me, I just find it a little double standard sometimes in the coffee world.

我们似乎都接受了世界上其他领域的通货膨胀。

We all seem to accept inflation in the rest of the world.

比如，汽车每年都会更贵。

Like, a car is gonna cost more every year.

牛奶每年也会更贵。

Milk is gonna cost more every year.

每样东西每年都会贵一点。

Everything costs a little bit more every year.

大家都明白这个道理。

Everyone knows that.

工资会稍微涨一点，然后价格也跟着涨一点。

The salary goes up a little bit, then the prices go up a little bit.

这本来就是常态。

That's just the way it is.

但在咖啡行业，我们却几乎期待价格五十年不变。

Yet in coffee, we just expect the price to be always the same for fifty years almost.

然后我们又说，哦，我们需要给农民付更多钱，需要为采摘工提供更好的条件等等。

And then, again, we talk about, oh, we need to pay the farmers more, all the we need to have better conditions for the pickers and everything.

一旦你不得不提高采摘工的工资来吸引他们，烘焙商就开始抱怨：哦，不行。

And as soon as that actually happens where you're paying pickers more because you have to to attract them, then the roasters start complaining, oh, no.

太贵了。

It's too expensive.

太贵了。

Too expensive.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为这与一个事实有关，那就是很多咖啡是一种大宗商品。

I think it it has a relation to, like, the the fact that, you know, a lot of the coffee is a commodity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

它与市场紧密相连，正是这种紧密的关联使得人们认为理应如此，但其实不该这样。

And it's attached to the market and, you know, like, yeah, it's that that close connection makes makes that thought to be to be like that, and and it shouldn't be like that.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得，今年市场价格上涨这一现象证明了，市场确实需要调整，人们必须明白，咖啡的价格必须更高，才能确保其最终的可持续性——因为这对咖啡种植者来说关乎生存和盈利能力。

Like and I think, you know, like, the phenomenon on the market going up this year proves that, you know, like, there needs to be adjustments in in in the market, and people need to understand that, you know, like, coffee coffee can and has to be more more expensive for the for the for the survival of that at the very end, you know, like, one part of the real sustainability of coffee because it which is profitability for the bruisers.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

而且，我不怕说出来。

And and, I mean, like, I'm not afraid of saying it.

你知道，有些人看到市场价格下跌还很高兴。

You know, guys saw people happy that the market was going down.

对吧？

Right?

这其实说得通，因为某些市场确实面临更艰难的经济状况，我理解。

And and it makes sense because, you know, like, there's certain economics that have been harder for certain markets, and I get it.

你知道，尤其是低端商业豆，一直都很困难。

You know, like, especially the lower commercial, you it has been difficult.

但最终，一些生产者需要赚钱，因为他们几乎要撑不下去了。

But at the very end, you know, like, some producers needed to make some money because they were very close to disappear.

是的。

Yeah.

所以最终，尤其是在我所在的地区，很多人因为不赚钱而放弃种咖啡，但今年他们终于赚到钱了，因为市场上涨了。

So finally, especially, like, in my area where a lot of people abandoning coffee because it wasn't profitable, finally, this year, they were able to make some money because the market was up.

所以我们需要想办法让价格更稳定，更具吸引力，这样生产者才能持续生产咖啡。

So, yeah, we need we need to figure out how to make it more stable and and how to make it more more more appealing so producers can continue putting putting coffees out there.

是的。

Yeah.

我这么说吧，这周我们在研讨会上也讨论过，所有农民都面临同样的问题。

I mean, we talked about it this week during our symposium as well that all the farmers have the same problems.

就是气候变化和人工劳动。

It's climate and manual labor.

找零工越来越难了，而且为了吸引劳动力，他们不得不支付越来越多的报酬。

Like, it's harder harder and harder to get manual labor, and they have to pay more and more in order to attract manual labor.

但即便如此，你通常还是无法雇到足够的人手，尤其是当你有个大农场和大丰收的时候。

And still, you're not able to get enough normally, especially if you have a big harvest and a big farm.

所以我认为，未来几年这将是我们面临的一个巨大挑战。

So I think this will be a huge challenge for us in the next coming years.

而且这种情况已经发生了。

And it's already happening.

比如在哥伦比亚，人们都在迁走，或者不愿意去农场干活。

Like, even in Colombia, people are migrating or they don't wanna work in the farms.

萨尔瓦多和洪都拉斯也出现了这种情况。

It happened in El Salvador, Honduras.

我们在肯尼亚也看到了这种现象。

We see it in Kenya.

在埃塞俄比亚，我们甚至也看到了这种情况。

We see it in Ethiopia even.

所以我认为这是个大问题。

So it's a big problem, I think.

这让我觉得，我们支付给咖啡工人的报酬显然不够，因为如果你要吸引这些人来采摘咖啡，你得给他们付更多的钱，我觉得。

And it makes me think that we are, of course, paying not enough for coffee because if you were to pay all these people to come here and attract them to pick a coffee, you have to pay them even more, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得这是值得的。

And and I think it's it's it's worth it.

以洪都拉斯为例，你知道，生活成本已经上涨了。

In the case of Honduras, you know, like, the cost of living has gone up.

嗯。

Mhmm.

工人需要赚更多的钱。

And and the workers need to make more money.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

而且我们需要提高这一点。

And and we need to increase that.

不仅仅是因为我们需要吸引他们，还因为他们值得过上更好的生活。

Not not only because, you know, like, we need to attract them, but also because they deserve to make a better living.

我们正在努力寻找一些模式，能够为他们提供更好的条件。

And we're trying to, like, figure out models where we can just provide them, you know, like, better conditions.

但最终，这与增加我们产品的客户群也息息相关，确实得做到这一点，确保每个人对自己的收入都感到满意和合理。

But at the very end, that is related to also increasing the customer of our of our product and and, yeah, gotta get that happen and and and make sure that, you know, like, everyone is is is comfortable with what they're making, and and it makes sense.

这绝对是我们需要重点关注的事情，现在我们应该更多地拿出计算器，而不是砍刀或锄头。

And and it's definitely, you know, like, something that we need to to focus on, get our calculators out more than the machete or the asadon right now.

这是一门生意。

It's a business.

然后，他们就会开始照顾好一切。

Then, and they start to take care of everything.

是的。

Yes.

作为一家企业，我本打算主动介入管理，做出对所有人来说都合理的商业决策。

As a business, I was gonna go there to, like, be proactive in terms of management and take the right decisions that that makes sense for for everyone in as a business.

我记得莫伊塞斯，我们也是从他那里买咖啡的朋友。

I remember Moises, our friend that we also buy coffee from.

他给我讲了一个故事，说有个客户打电话给他，要求降价，因为他们的国家发生了通货膨胀。

He told me a story that he had a client call him asking him to reduce the price because they had inflation in their country.

当他回答说，我们这里也有通货膨胀时。

When he says answered, but we have inflation too.

对方却说：不，不行。

It's like, no.

我们可以提价。

We we can increase the price.

你知道，事情就是这么发展的。

You know, that's that's the way it goes.

但有时候看起来，买家和生产国之间似乎存在一点脱节，生产国总是那些国家，而只有某些国家才有通货膨胀之类的问题。

But it seems to be like a little disconnect sometimes from buyers that producing countries are always the same, and the only countries that have inflation and stuff is like the

这个市场？

This market?

是的。

Yeah.

这有点奇怪，但我认为，通过一些教育，这是很容易改变的。

Which is kinda weird, but I I guess, you know, with some education, that's easy to to change.

比如，如果你在咖啡行业待得久一点，人们会慢慢意识到，如果你想获得高品质，就必须支付更多。

Like, people realize after a while if you've been in coffee for a while that you have to pay more if you wanna have a good quality.

就是这样。

That's just the way it is.

否则，如果我们不提高价格，我认为咖啡将会消失，因为不涨价的话，这根本不可持续。

Otherwise, I think coffee will disappear if we if we don't do that because it's not viable if you don't increase the price.

在我所在的地区，我们组织了一个合作社，涵盖不同品质的咖啡，而那群生产者中10%的人目前在美国非法工作，因为他们觉得咖啡行业没有吸引力，这部分产量已经不再存在了。

In you see it in my region, we had a coop organized of different type of of qualities of coffee, and the 10% of the group of producers the 10% of the producers are currently working in The US illegally because they couldn't find coffee to be appealing, all of that volume is no longer available.

所以我们正在努力弄清楚如何长期补偿这一点。

So we're trying to, like, figure out how we will compensate that for the long run.

所以，是的，我们需要一起想办法，让这件事行得通。

So, yeah, we we need we need to figure something out together to to to make it work.

而且，不幸的是，公司在这种动荡的危机中不得不面对问题，而他们却毫无准备。

And and, yeah, unfortunately, companies have to face problems during this volatile crisis, and and they are unprepared.

所以现在是时候奠定基础，弄清楚我们如何能让这一切对每个人都可持续了。

So it's the time to, you know, like, set basis and and figure out how we can make this sustainable for everyone.

但你肯定也知道，十年前这些问题可能就已经存在了。

But you must have known that this were these were probably issues ten years ago as well.

我的问题是，当你看到周围这些种种问题时，为什么还要买下农场，开始种植咖啡呢？

My question is, why did you buy a farm and start growing coffee when you see all these kind of problems around you?

嗯，

Well,

原因有很多。

there's many things.

对吧？

Right?

这个问题非常复杂，但我有一个简单的回答。

And that question is very complex, but I have an easy response.

我的回答是，我认为自己是个幸运的人，因为我出生并成长在一个努力工作、能够积累财富的家庭。

And and my response is that I'm I consider myself a privileged browser because I was able to be born and raised in a family that worked hard and was able to build to build a patrimony.

你知道，来自艰难的背景。

You know, like, coming from, you know, like, harsh backgrounds.

我的灵感之一是，我妈妈经常告诉我，我祖父17岁才穿上第一双鞋。

And then, like, of my inspirations is, you know, like, when my mom tells me all the time that my grandfather wore his first pair of shoes when he was 17.

对吧？

Right?

这让我想到自己有多幸运。

And and that makes me think about how blessed I am.

对吧？

Right?

而且，是的，面对所有这些我们曾经历的机会，我心想，尤其是看到那些激励我、让我成为生产者的榜样之后，种植咖啡对我来说可能会容易得多。

And and, yes, with all of these, you know, like, opportunities that we have faced, right, I thought that could be a lot easier for me to grow coffee after especially seeing, you know, like, some of the people that inspire me and help me be producer fell.

比如，我和莫雷诺家族非常亲近。

Like, you know, like, I'm very close to the Moreno family.

我多次看到他们跌倒，但也看到他们站起来，继续蓬勃发展，这对我来说是一种激励。

And I saw them fell many times, but I also saw them, you know, like, stand up and continue in thriving, and that was, like, an inspiration for me.

我意识到，我拥有的优势不仅在于从他们的成功中学习，也在于从他们的失败中汲取经验。

And I, you know, like, saw that I have more advantage that I didn't only learn from their successes, but also from their failures.

我有幸拥有这样的经历，它激励我努力工作，教会我如何努力工作。

I was able to have a that that inspired me to work hard, that taught me how to work hard.

我还有机会接触到这个美妙的市场，这个市场也前来收购这些生产者的咖啡。

And I also had the opportunity to be exposed to this wonderful market that was also coming to buy coffee from this producer.

所以，我当时就想，嗯。

So I was kinda like, yeah.

也许我能在这里找到属于自己的位置，不仅因为经济原因，更因为我希望站在生产者的角度，学习并分享我的经验，帮助他们解决各种问题。

You know, like, maybe I could find, you know, like, my place here, and and I could be able to, like, to make it work, not only because of the economics, but also because I wanted to be in the shoes of the producers and learn and share my own experiences and help them with different things.

因为同时，我也能降低风险，因为我有能力补贴这些投资

Because also at the same time, have lower risk because I was able to, like, subsidize

是的。

Yeah.

这些投资，因为我知道，我的收入并不只来自咖啡。

These investments because, you know, I don't only have income from the coffee.

我很幸运，还在圣文森特有份工作，同时经营着咖啡店和烘焙厂，这些都帮助了我的生意。

I have the blessing to also, you know, like, have my job in San Vicente and have also the coffee shop and the roastery that helps, you know, like, my business.

我还拥有大学学位，如果出了什么问题，我可以去申请其他工作。

I also, you know, like, have a university degree that if something goes wrong, you know, I can go and apply for a job.

是的。

Yeah.

而这并不是许多生产者所拥有的。

And that's not, you know, like, what many producers have.

是的。

Yeah.

很多人没有这样的机会。

Like, many don't have these opportunities.

所以我想，不如利用我拥有的这些机会，去尝试一下，看看我们能做成什么，并把从这些活动中获得的任何收益都回馈给生产者。

So I'm like, let's use these opportunities I have, try them, see how much we can do, and bring any benefit I get from all these to the producers, back to the producers.

早在2011年，当我决定购买土地种植咖啡时，我的灵感来自于生产者和买家。

And and back in 2011 when I decided to buy land to plant coffee, I got the inspiration from the producers and from the buyers.

许多生产者说，嘿。

Many of the producers say, like, hey.

你应该买下自己的土地。

You should buy your land.

我们会帮你，你知道的，一起种咖啡。

We will help you, you know, like, plant the coffee.

我们会教你怎么做。

We will, like, show you how to how to do it.

我真的需要向他们学习。

And and I had to really learn from them.

而且，另一方面，也有市场买家过来对我说：嘿，本杰明。

And, also, in the other hand, I have the market buyers that were coming and say, hey, Benjamin.

如果你生产咖啡，我们非常愿意购买。

If you ever produce coffee, we would love to buy it.

所以，我意识到了这个机会。

So I kinda, like, saw that opportunity.

现在，十三年过去了，我意识到这真是一段非常好的经历，它帮助我更深入地理解生产者、更加尊重他们、更加欣赏咖啡。

And and now, you know, thirteen years later, I realized it has been has been really good, has been an experience that has helped me understand producers more, respect them more, appreciate coffee more.

我还很幸运，两次获得了COI奖，这是洪都拉斯对咖啡烘焙师最重要的奖项，而且不是一次，而是两次。

I also had the blessing of, you know, winning COI, which is the most important award for for a browser in Honduras, not only once, but twice.

这给了我很多经验，让我学会如何克服这些挑战。

And that has given me a lot of experience to kinda, like, figure out how to overcome all of these challenges.

凭借我的经验，我与我合作的加工方分享这些，一起探索我们可以制定哪些策略，以便

And with my experience, share this with the processors that I'm working with to just explore what strategies we can build in order to, like

我的意思是，你现在显然正在激励生产者了，比如在连续几年赢得卓越奖之后，是吗？

I mean, you're you're clearly inspiring the producers now, like, after winning two couple excellence consecutive years, was it?

2022年和2024年。

2022 and 2024.

好的。

Okay.

但这仍然非常了不起，我相信你现在已经是你们地区许多生产者的巨大榜样了。

But that's still pretty incredible, and I'm sure you're a huge inspiration for a lot of the producers in your area now.

所以我们稍微反转了一下思路，因为我想，如果你认真做事，就能实现可能达到的最高目标。

So we kinda flipped it around a little bit because I I guess I can see that if you do the work properly, then you you can achieve, like, the highest possible goal.

你

You

知道吗？

know?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，事情一开始就像你说的那样，让我意识到，就像最开始有人告诉我的那样，我当时想，嘿。

I mean, it it started like, what you say, it just made me realize, you know, like like, produce like, when was was telling me at the very beginning, I'm like, hey.

生产咖啡。

Produce coffee.

赢得COE。

Win COE.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们会帮你的。

Like, we'll we'll help you.

这是2010年。

This is, 2010.

我的意思是，我走进他的农场时，他正试图说服我去做这件事。

I mean, and I walk in on his farm, and he trying to convince me to to do it.

我记得在2022年年中，我赢得COE之后，他看着我说，嘿。

And and I remember him in in in by midyear in 2022 after I won COE, he was, like, looking at me, and I'm like, hey.

你做得比我好。

You did it better than me.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得他当时在试图说服你，而现在你赢得了COE，而我……你赢了COE，我却没有。

I remember he was trying to convince you, and now you won COE, and I well, you won COE, and I haven't.

而且，你知道，我希望这种影响是存在的。

And, yes, you know, like, I'm I'm hoping that the impact is there.

凭借我所获得的经验，我正努力把这些都分享给他们，因为我也希望他们能成功。

And I'm with my the experience I I got, I'm trying to share all of that with them because I also want them to to succeed.

我希望他们能赢得ZioE。

I want them to win ZioE.

我希望他们能得到，你知道的，那种奖励。

I want them to get, you know, like, you know, like, the reward.

对吧？

Right?

还有那种认可，这就是我的计划。

And and that recognition, and and that's the plan.

我们的计划是继续这样做，为我们所在的社区、生产者以及那些信任Ambicente并把他们的咖啡交给我们代表的人带来尽可能多的影响。

The plan is to continue doing that and bring as much impact as we can to to our communities and to our producers and and the people that have believed in us as Ambicente as well that have trusted their patrimony, and they have given us all of these coffees for us to represent them.

这是一项重大的责任，我们希望确保做对的事情。

So it's a big responsibility, and we wanna make sure we do the right thing.

不错。

Nice.

你提到了霍布尼尔。

You talked about Jobnil.

霍布尼尔，对听众来说，他是Finka La Cimento的主人，自2009年以来我们一直直接从他那里采购咖啡。

Jobnil, if you for the listeners, Jobnil is the owner of Finka La Cimento that we have been buying from for since 2009 directly.

但在2008年，我们曾购买过他父亲的咖啡，并获得了卓越杯奖项。

But we bought his father's coffee under a cup of excellence in 2008.

这已经很久了。

And that's been a long time.

已经有十六年了。

It's sixteen years.

所以他的生活中和农场里发生了许多事情。

So a lot of stuff has happened in his life and also on his farms and everything.

我试图通过我们的网站等各种渠道向人们讲述这些故事，但也许你可以作为旁观者，以第三方的视角分享一下你的观察。

I try to tell people about it through our website and everything, but maybe we could hear from you as a kind of a fly on the wall because you've been kind of following this as a third party person.

也许你可以简单谈谈，总体来看，你是如何见证这段历程发展的？

Maybe you could talk a little bit about, like, in general terms, like, how have you seen that journey evolve?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，霍姆尼尔是个朋友。

I mean, Home Neil is a is a friend.

他不仅仅是合作伙伴，更是朋友。

More than a partner, he's a friend.

他是个很有个性的人。

He's a character.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

他是个很有个性的人。

He's a character.

他的性格非常强烈。

His personality is is is intense.

他这个人很强势。

He's a lot.

他工作非常努力。

He works very hard.

他一旦设定目标，通常都能实现。

When he sets a goal, he normally achieves it.

很有野心，但这是积极的。

Very ambitious in a good way.

而且非常忠诚，也很高尚。

Also, very loyal and and very noble.

有时候有点固执，但你知道，这就是人的本性。

Sometimes a little bit stubborn, but, you know, like, that's the nature of a human being.

你知道，我们都是这样，但正是这一点让他成为了如今成功的农民。

You know, we're we're we're but that but that that fact help makes him be the successful farmer he is now.

而且，是的，这条路走得很漫长。

And and, yeah, it's been a long way.

你知道，他的背景并不容易。

You know, like, his background wasn't easy.

你知道吗？

You know?

比如，他14岁就离开了家，开始四处漂泊，试图找到自己的未来。

Like, he had to leave his house at the age of 14 and started to travel to all different places to try to figure out what his future was going to be.

和我爸爸类似，他在咖啡中找到了机会。

Similar to my dad, he found in coffee, you know, like, opportunities.

所以他移民到了美国。

So he migrated to The States.

但当他发现咖啡对他和家人来说是个好机会时，他决定回到圣巴巴拉，重新安顿下来，从头开始。

But when he found that coffee could be a good opportunity for him and for his family, he decided to come back, settle down in Santa Barbara again, and start over.

他做到了。

And he did.

他现在是我们最好的生产者之一，出产的咖啡非常出色，同时对埃尔西埃利托的其他生产者也极具影响力。

And he's one of the best producers we have right now with amazing coffees and also very influential for the producers in El Cielito.

他还是我们选中来试验多种不同技术的生产者，是种植 exotic 品种的先驱，也是出色的 Pacas 生产者。

And and he's been also a producer that we selected to test many different things, a pioneer on growing exotic varieties, an exemplary Pacas producer as well.

多年来，他的 Pacas 和波旁咖啡一直是最好的咖啡之一。

His Pacas and bourbons for many years were some of the best coffees.

还有他的 Icafe Noventa。

And also his Icafe Noventa.

还有他的 Icafe Noventa，你知道，就像

And his Icafe Noventa, which is, you know, like

这太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

有一个非常特别的细节要提一下，就是这些咖啡本来并不是为了口感出众而培育的。

A very peculiar a very peculiar detail to mention is that, you know, like, supposedly, those coffees are not made to taste amazing.

但他在西利托莱多种植的Icafe Noventa却意外地极其出色且非常有趣。

But his ikafenoentas from Sili Toledo happened to be insanely good and very interesting.

所以，是的，他和他的妻子法尼，以及整个家庭，都是我们项目成功的关键人物，对其他生产者极具启发性。

So, yeah, him and and and not only him, but also Fanny, his wife, and and his whole family have been key people for the success of our program, very inspirational for the producers.

他们可以说是我们在初期展示时的招牌咖啡。

And they were kinda like, you know, like, the staple coffees for us that we will show off with at the very beginning.

而且，看到我们与他们共同努力，把他们的业务发展到今天这个地步，我感到非常自豪。

And, yeah, very, very proud to see where we have taken their operation altogether, working together.

我非常感激他们的信任。

I really appreciate their trust.

正如我之前所说，他们把自家的资产交给我们公司来代表他们。

As I said before, you know, like, they bring their patrimony to us as a company to represent them.

他们信任我们，让我们施展我们的‘魔法’，正如他所说的那样。

They trust us to do our our magic, as he says.

而且，对我来说，拥有这份信任非常重要，因为我深知生产咖啡有多艰难。

And and, yeah, for me, that's that's very important that we have the trust and and because I know how hard it is to produce coffees.

而且，对我来说，他们是非常重要的人，看到他们成功我感到非常高兴，也很开心他们能和我们在一起，是的。

And and, yeah, for for me, they are very important people, and and I'm just very happy to see them succeed, very happy that they are here with us Yeah.

在哥伦比亚的坦巴纳，共同分享这段经历。

In in Tambana, in Colombia, sharing this experience.

而且，我对短期和长期的未来都感到非常兴奋。

And and, yeah, very excited about about the future in short and long term.

我将来会和他一起录制一个播客，但我的西班牙语还需要提高一点，因为他说话太快了。

I'm I'm going to record a podcast with him in the future, but my Spanish needs to get a little bit better because he speaks so fast.

他是一位西班牙绅士。

He's a Spanish gentleman.

我们需要对所有脏话进行一些审查，但我期待有一天能和乔布尼尔进行一次真正的对话，至少能听懂他80%的内容，因为他是我最难听懂的人。

And we need some kind of censorship for all the swear words, but I'm looking forward to the day where I can have, like, a proper conversation with Jobnil where I understand at least 80% of what he's saying because he's the one I struggle the most with understanding, actually.

我总是需要翻译。

And I always need a translator.

好的。

Okay.

但你提到Jobnil在这里。

But you mentioned that Jobnil is here.

你今天和来自洪都拉斯的Moises和Marisabel，还有来自你地区的Fanny，以及来自Los Prineos的Diego Barona一起来到了哥伦比亚。

You're here today in Colombia together with Moises and Marisabel from Honduras also, and Fanny from from your area, and Diego Barona was here from Los Prineos.

Don Elias当然在这里，因为我们现在在他的哥伦比亚农场。

Don Elias is obviously here because we're at his farm in Colombia.

这是我们作为团体第三次见面。

And we have had this is the third time we meet as a group.

是的。

Yeah.

我们第一次见面是在2023年11月的危地马拉，我想是那样。

And we met the first time in Guatemala in November 2023, I think it was.

是的。

Yes.

在那次乘车途中，我想是在公交车上或者晚餐时。

And in a bus ride there, I I think it was on a bus ride or during a dinner.

我告诉所有人：如果你们不改用有机种植，十年后我就不会再买你们的咖啡。

I told everyone, like, if you don't change to organic farming, I'm not gonna buy your coffee in ten years.

这个信息可真够强硬的。

Pretty hard message to get.

虽然我不买你们的咖啡，但我邀请你们来参加这次研讨会，是因为你们在你们所在地区以及对霍特·尼尔都有很大的影响力。

And I'm not buying your coffee, but I invited you to this symposium because you have such a big influence in your area and also on Hot Neil.

所以我希望你们能加入我们称之为‘有机产品’的这个项目。

And so I wanted you to be part of the project that we call our organic product.

这个名称其实不太合适，因为它并不是关于有机认证之类的东西。

It's it's not a good working title because it's not about organic certification or anything.

但我们的许多听众都听过关于生物亲和力的那期节目，以及我们与拉洛讨论再生咖啡和生物种植的那期内容。

But, basically, a lot of our listeners know have heard about biophilia and the episode with Lalo that we where we talked about regenerative coffee and biological growing and stuff.

你们来这里的主要目的，当然是了解埃利亚斯的农场，但也要讨论未来十年——现在是八年了——我们如何改变这些农场，希望我们能开始谈论环境可持续性方面的可持续性。

And this is mainly why you're here to get to know Elias' farm, of course, but also to talk about the future ten years, which is now eight years, and how we are gonna change all these farms, hopefully, to, what we can maybe start talking about sustainability in terms of environmental and sustainability.

这件事对我来说花了这么长时间的原因是，正如你之前提到的，首先你需要确保经济上的可持续性，让生产者能盈利，然后才能开始讨论如何改变他们的咖啡种植方式，以实现环境上的可持续性。

And the reason why this has taken so long for me is, like you mentioned earlier, first, you need to have the economic sustainability in place, make sure the producers make a profit, then you can start talking about changing how they farm the coffee in order to make it more sustainable environmentally.

我认为我们现在已经达到了这个阶段，正在实际推进，并在每个农场进行试验。

And I think we've come to that place where we are actually doing that, and we're doing trials on each farm.

你们正在做试验。

You're doing trials.

伊利亚斯，每个人都在使用生物技术进行试验，并将其与传统方法进行对比。

Ilias, everyone is doing trials with the biological techniques and comparing it to conventional.

所以也许你可以从你的角度谈谈，你正在做些什么，以及你如何看待这个项目的未来。

So maybe you can talk a little bit about that from your perspective, what's, like, what you're doing and how you see this project if it's you know, has a future or not.

是的。

Yes.

我想说一些我可能从未说过的话，至少可能没对你说过。

I mean, I'm going to say something that I probably never said, at least not to you maybe.

但你知道，对我来说，你一直是一个非常有影响力的人，因为我们明白，你不仅对我们，而且对整个行业都至关重要。

But, you know, like, for me, you know, you've been always a very influential person because, you know, like, we understand how important you have been not only to us, but also for the industry.

我本人信任并相信你和你的愿景。

And and I personally trust and believe in in you and in your vision.

而且，是的，我百分之百相信，咖啡的未来与我们如何对待土壤、如何对待环境、如何对待种植条件密切相关。

And and, yeah, I I trust 100% that the future of coffee has a lot of relation to how we treat the soil, how we treat the environment, how we treat our growing conditions.

所以在你分享生物亲和项目之前，我已经通过一位朋友亲身经历过一些与再生农业、更偏向生物方式种植咖啡相关的事情，这位朋友只是出于偶然的本性，以及对有机咖啡产业的了解。

So even before you shared about the biophilia project, I had already experienced something related to regenerative, you know, like farming and more a more biological approach to to growing coffee through a through a friend who was just by just casual nature and and and how organic coffee industry works.

你知道吗？

You know?

他当时在为拉洛提供咨询。

Like, he was consulting with Lalo.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

我听到了他的经历。

And and I have heard his experience.

然后你来找我们，说：嘿。

And then when you came to us and say, like, hey.

这正是我们想要的合作方式。

This is kinda like the way we we would like to work.

当你邀请我参与这个项目时，我立刻说：百分之百同意。

And and when you invited me to be part of this, I was like, 100%.

我愿意参与。

I'm down.

因为我亲眼见证了种植条件的巨大变化。

Because I've seen it how much the growing conditions have changed.

我也看到了我们因忽视种植条件、不善待土壤、不尊重自然所造成的后果。

And I also have seen results of the mistakes that we have made by not treating the growing conditions well, not treating the soil well, not treating nature well.

当你们作为市场方告诉我们：嘿。

And when you, as the market, comes and tells us, hey.

你知道，咖啡的未来可能就是这样，或者就是如此，我们最好相信这一点。

You know, like, the future of coffee might be this or it is this, you know, like, we better believe it.

因为你知道，有时候我们并没有像你们那样的接触面，而你们理解这一点，你们的文化和市场所具备的教育和视野。

Because, you know, like, sometimes we don't have the same exposure that you have and you and you understand that and the education and the vision of, you know, like, your cultures and your markets.

所以对我们来说，大多数时候，我们种咖啡的方式和种其他蔬菜一样。

So for us, you know, like, most of the time, we're, like, growing coffee the same way that we grow other vegetables.

但这并不是这样的。

And and it's not like that.

咖啡的影响是深远的。

The impact of coffee is extensive.

咖啡的影响肯定会影响我们的种植条件。

The impact of coffee can definitely affect, you know, like, our growing conditions.

我一直以来都说，上次你们在洪都拉斯时我们谈话，我就说过，我们已经让种植条件去适应咖啡，而不是让咖啡去适应我们的种植条件。

And I've been always saying, and the last time we talked when you were in Honduras, I said something that, you know, like, we have adapted our growing conditions to the coffee, but not the coffee to our growing conditions.

这一直是我们的一个主要错误，一个重大错误，现在我们正为此付出代价，因为我们正目睹我们地区发生的剧烈气候变化。

And that has been a main mistake that a big mistake that we are paying now seeing all the drastic climate changes that are happening in our areas.

所以我相信这个项目。

So I believed in the project.

我想参与这个项目，我相信你，这是咖啡的未来。

I wanted to be part of the project, and and I believed in you that this is the future of coffee.

我想成为咖啡未来的一部分。

I I want to be part of the future of coffee.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我不希望喝合成咖啡，嗯。

I don't want to drink synthetic coffee Mhmm.

在未来。

In the future.

我知道，如果我们能改善种植条件，未来就能继续拥有咖啡。

And and I know that if we can treat the the growing conditions, we can have coffee in the future.

所以，是的，我对这个项目非常兴奋。

So, yes, I'm very excited about the project.

我认为我们正在做的事情将会改变。

I think what we're doing will change.

我们地区咖啡的种植。

The the growing of the coffee in our areas.

而且，是的，我非常期待生物亲和性会带来什么成果，不仅在土壤上，不仅在植物的健康上，还在咖啡的品质上，以及在我们的生活中，因为这是一个关乎生命的大业。

And and, yeah, very excited to see what biophilia will bring, what the results will be, not only in the soil, not only in the health of the plants, also in the quality, and also in our lives because it's a life project.

这不仅仅是一个普通的咖啡项目。

It's not just, you know, like a coffee project.

嗯。

Yeah.

这是一个长期的项目。

It's a long term project.

是的。

Yes.

到目前为止，我们从你的农场开始进行试验。

So far, we we started with the trials in your farm.

是在三月吗？

Was it in March?

或者如果

Or if if

是的。

Yes.

今年年初，我们就开始了试验。

Early early early this year, we started with the with the with the trials.

我认为第一次施用是在三月。

I think the first applications were in March.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，到目前为止，我们看到了一些结果。

And, yeah, so far, we're we're we're seeing the results.

你们看到了什么结果？

What results are you seeing?

我的意思是，这是一项

I mean, it's a

现在说还为时过早。

little early to say.

我的意思是

I mean

嗯。

Yeah.

现在说还早，但确实已经出现某种趋势了。

It's it's a little early, but there's there's definitely a behavior.

对吧？

Right?

我想说的第一点是，你知道，就像你之前说的，我不是你们的常规制片人之一。

Then and the first thing that I would like to say is that, you know, like, as you as you said before, you know, like, I'm not part of your, you know, like, your regular producers.

对吧？

Right?

但正如你和我都知道的，我在圣托圣维森特和圣巴巴拉地区作为区域参与者的影响力是显著的。

But as you and I know, my participation in Santo San Vicente and Santa Barbara as a region can be impactful.

所以你选择我参与其中的愿景，也是因为我们可能能够

So your vision of selecting me to be part of it is also because we might be able to

改变这个地区。

To change the region.

改变，是的，改变这个地区，以及改变其他社区，以身作则，展示出可以做到什么，以及我们如何让这一切变得更好。

Change, yeah, the region and change other communities and and and show by example, right, what can be done and how we can make this better.

当我们开始申请和做所有这些事情时，是的，我们开始看到成果，比如我们所应用的产品类型，以及农场因为我们的做法而开始变得越来越健康。

And when we started do the applications and everything, yes, we started to see the results, you know, like, the type of products that we're applying, the healthier that the farms start to to to look based on what we are doing.

我们能够识别出农场所需的某些东西。

We were able to identify certain things that the farm needed.

我们开始发现成本方面的机遇，因为这些做法比我们过去使用的传统方法高效得多。

We started to identify what opportunities in terms of cost we will find as, you know, like, some of these practices are a lot more efficient than the traditional practices we were doing.

工人在实施这些新技术方面的参与度一直都在。

The engagement of the workers implementing these new techniques has been there.

每个人对尝试新事物的热情也很高，这些新事物显然对所有人都更健康，而且还有潜力找到更高质量的产品。

The excitement of everyone, you know, like experimenting with something new that is clearly a lot healthier for everyone is also good and the potential of, you know, like, finding better quality.

到目前为止，是的，还为时过早，但我们确实看到植物稍微更健康了。

So far, yes, it's early, but, you know, like, we are seeing, you know, like, slightly happier plants.

我们注意到自然与咖啡之间的互动变得更加活跃，因为我们不仅使用了对植物和环境更健康的替代产品，还通过种植多样化的树木等项目相关措施来营造这样的环境。

We're seeing that the interaction in between the nature and and the coffee, it's more active as we are not only applying different products that are healthier for the plants and for the environment, but also, you know, like, creating the environment by planting diversity of trees and everything that is part of the project as well.

对吧？

Right?

而且，安娜和拉洛出现在我们的农场里，指出了我们之前忽略或做错的一些具体问题。

And and the fact that we have the presence of Anna and Lalo in our farms that, you know, like, pointed out specific things that we were missing or we weren't doing right.

这确实带来了改变，因为我们看到过度生长的环境正在缓慢改善，而且我们不再使用任何杀菌剂。

You know, like, it's it has made a change because we see the environment of overgrowing conditions slowly changing, the fact that we're not using any more fungicides.

通常，我们会在这里那里看到一点点锈病。

And, normally, we will see, you know, like, a little bit of rust here and there.

我们会立刻拿上喷雾器，马上喷洒杀菌剂。

We will go, like, grab a pump and run and spray fungicide immediately.

对吧？

Right?

我们确实没那么做过，是的。

We haven't done that Yeah.

一整年都没做过。

In the whole year.

而且

And

我们看到锈病确实存在，但并没有像我们预期的那样严重影响植株。

we see the rust is there, but it's also not affecting the plants as much as we expected.

所以，你知道，现在还太早，但我们看到锈病的活动方式发生了变化，这跟我们所做的有关，比如种植的草的类型，还有我们采用的不同除草策略等等。

So, you know, like, it's super early, but we're seeing the the activity of the rust, you know, like, behaving differently based on what we are we have done, you know, like, the type of grass that is growing as you know, like, we're using different strategies to clean the weeds and everything.

所以，是的，我们看到了一些微小的变化，这让我对未来的前景非常兴奋，我简直等不及要品尝这些咖啡了，是的。

So, yeah, we're seeing small changes, which gets me really excited for for the future, and I'm just can't wait to cup those coffees Yeah.

我也是。

Me too.

是的。

Yeah.

明年三月和四月，看看我们能做些什么。

In March and April next year, right, just to see what what we can do.

因为我选择这个农场，是因为它是我种植咖啡最具挑战性的农场。

Because, also, I selected that farm because it was also the most challenging farm for me to grow coffee at.

而且这也是唯一一个因为条件恶劣而从未给我带来任何利润的农场。

And it's also the one farm that hasn't given me any profits because of just the conditions were there.

当然，你知道，我还有其他成功的农场，比如我和你提到的萨尔萨农场，但我也想走一条不那么容易的路。

And, yes, you know, like, I have other farms that have been successful, like like Salsa, the the farmer I want you with, but I also I didn't wanna take the easy path.

我想选择一条更具挑战性的道路，这样我们才能学习，并将这些信息分享给其他生产者。

I was I wanted to take the challenging path so we could learn and share this information with the rest of the producers.

到目前为止，我们都非常兴奋。

So so far, you know, we're very excited.

我很有动力，真的很想品尝这些咖啡，看看能从中得到什么。

I'm I'm very incentivized, and I really wanna, you know, taste these coffees and see what we can get out of them.

我迫不及待想明年来拜访你，看看经过一年的管理后农场的实际状况。

I can't wait to come and visit you next year to see the farm in action after a year of doing the application.

所以你们也在种植遮荫树吗？

So are you planting shade as well?

或者

Or

是的。

Yes.

所以我们正在与当地社区合作。

So we are working with local community.

我们正在开展一个苗圃项目，收集来自圣巴巴拉山的本地树种。

We're working on a on a nursery project where we are collecting native varieties of trees from the Santa Barbara Mountain Mhmm.

并在苗圃中培育这些树种，由我本人与几位其他生产者共同出资，种植本地原生品种，而不是引进外来品种。

And reproducing them in nurseries that I'm personally financing with with a couple other producers to grow varieties that are native from the area instead of bringing varieties that are not from there.

正如你所知，这个项目的一部分也是要恢复自然环境。

As, you know, like, part of the project is also recreate the natural conditions.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们种植了六到十种不同的本地树种，包括生长缓慢和生长较快的树木，以创造足够的多样性，让植物健康生长，产出高品质的咖啡。

And so we're planting between six to 10 different varieties of of of of native trees, slow growth and faster growth trees so we can create, you know, like, enough diversity where we can grow happy plants and and good quality coffee.

听起来太棒了。

Sounds fantastic.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，蒂姆，这是我个人的承诺，因为我们知道，在我们获得这块土地、人们在社区定居之前，这些地区曾经是原始森林。

And, also, Tim, it's a it's a it's a commitment that I personally have because we know at some point before we got the land and before, you know, like, the people settle in their communities, you know, like, we know these areas were primary forest Mhmm.

或者曾经是圣巴巴拉山脉的一部分。

Or some point, were part of the Santa Barbara Mountain.

我认为正确的事情是，把这座山应有的健康和环境条件还给它。

And and I think the right thing to do is to, you know, like, give the mountain back some of these, you know, like, health and some of these conditions.

所以我们正努力探索如何重建自然环境。

So we're trying to we're trying to figure out how do, you know, like, recreate the natural environment.

有趣的是，其他生产者看到我们这样做后，不管他们是否参与这些实践，都会跟着效仿。

And and the funny thing is that, you know, like, as the other producers see us doing this, you know, like, they are kinda, like, following up no matter if they are part of the practices or not.

有一群人对参与这个项目并开发新方法充满热情。

There's a group of people very excited about working in this project and developing new practices.

比如，人们不再种植桉树或番石榴，而是种植属于这座山、原生于这里的树种。

Like, you know, like, instead of, you know, like, planting gravilea or guava, right, you know, like, people are planting varieties that are that belong and they're native to the mountain.

是的。

Yeah.

这正是我正在哥伦比亚我们的农场里努力做的事——让原生树种回归。

That's I mean, that's what I'm trying to do here in our farms as well in Colombia, like, bring back the native ones.

你知道的？

You know?

这一点很容易看出来。

It's pretty easy to see.

只要环顾你周围就行了。

Just look around where you are.

哪些树是自然生长的？

What are the trees that are growing wild?

多种植一些这些树。

Just plant more of those.

你不需要从非洲和中国引进树木

You don't have to bring trees from Africa and China

和澳大利亚。

and Australia.

没错。

Yeah.

所以这很简单。

So it's pretty easy.

而且，每个小山都有不同的动植物，很容易就能确定该种什么树。

And, like, every little mountain has different fauna, and it's so it's easy to figure out what trees to plant.

而且，种植者经常问我：你最喜欢哪种树？

And very often, producers ask me, like, which tree do you like the most?

我说：我都喜欢。

I was like, I like all of them.

我说，哦，这种树对咖啡非常有害。

And I said, oh, this tree is very dangerous for coffee.

不，不行。

Like, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

生物多样性对咖啡有益。

Biodiversity is good for coffee.

那么对咖啡有害的是单一种植。

Then what's dangerous for coffee is monoculture.

单一种植不仅仅是在田里只种咖啡。

And monoculture is not just having coffee in a field.

它还包括种咖啡时只搭配一种遮阴树，或者某种草，或者其他什么。

It's also having coffee and just one species of shade tree or some grass or whatever.

所以我们需要邀请大自然进入农场，而不是将它排除在外。

So we need to invite nature, I think, to the farms and not kind of exclude it.

这才是未来的方向。

That's the that's the way forward.

然后你就会看到，就像你说的，树木可能会感染锈病，但它们不会受到太大影响，因为如果你引入生物多样性，就会有其他真菌喜欢以锈病为食。

And then you can see, like like you say, the trees can have rust, but they won't be affected because if you invite biodiversity, there's also other fungus that, like, eat likes to eat the rust.

于是你开始在自然界中建立起一种平衡，病虫害问题也会减少。

So you start to get a balance in nature where where you get less problems with pests and disease.

事情本来就是这样。

That's just the way it is.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，这还会直接影响到生长环境的健康状况。

And, also, you know, it has a direct effect on on on how healthy, you know, like, the conditions can be.

在我看来，我喝过的最好的咖啡都来自健康的生长环境。

And and in my opinion, the best coffees I've tasted come from, you know, like, healthy growing conditions.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道的，比如好的土壤、良好的遮荫和环境。

You know, like, good soil, good shade, environment.

最好的咖啡通常就生长在这样的地方。

That's where the best coffees normally grow.

所以我们想重现并尽可能地把咖啡做到最好。

So that's what we want to recreate and and make the coffees the best we can.

同时，也要在经济上找到平衡，减少对环境的影响，让这个过程尽可能缓慢，靠这个谋生。

And also, you know, like, find that balance in the economics, have balance in the in the the impact that we do in the environment to have it, like, as slow as we can and, you know, like, make a living out of that.

这最终就是我们的目标。

That's kinda, like, the goal at the very end.

不错。

Nice.

还有什么想补充的吗？

Anything else you wanna add?

那你现在在和多少家咖啡庄园合作？

Or how many roaches are you working with now?

个人而言？

Personally?

对。

Yeah.

就是你们公司。

Like, your company.

大概有一百五十多家。

Probably over a 150.

哇。

Wow.

遍布全球吗？

All over the world?

或者

Or

遍布全球，从亚洲到欧洲、北美、澳大利亚，很多不同的地方。

All over the world from, you know, like, Asia to Europe, North America, Australia, many different places.

我们很幸运拥有如此出色的合作伙伴，像你这样的人，不仅喜欢我们的咖啡、信任我们的咖啡，还信任我们作为人。

We have been blessed to have amazing partners, people that like you, you know, like, not only liked our coffees and trusted our coffees, but also trusted in us as human beings.

是的，我很荣幸也很开心能称他们中的许多人朋友。

And, yeah, I have the honor and the pleasure to call many of them friends.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

这就是从事这个行业的好处之一。

That's one of the benefits of working in this industry.

有时候，还有哈珀。

And sometimes, you know, like, Harper as well.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为你得让朋友们开心。

Because you have to please your friends.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

有时候并不容易，但这是最好的。

And sometimes it's not easy, but it's the best.

你知道的。

You know?

我觉得，我们找到的价值远远超出了仅仅一杯咖啡而已。

Like, I think I think we have found so much value outside of just, you know, like, a cup in bowl Yeah.

超越了一杯咖啡。

Outside of a cup.