一群混蛋的国家

我是梅根·拉皮诺。本周在《深入探讨》节目中，ESPN体育主播兼播客主持人艾尔·邓肯将加入讨论WNBA季后赛、本赛季表现超预期和未达预期的球队、她心目中的MVP人选以及其他赛季奖项的归属原因。最新一期《深入探讨》已在各大播客平台及YouTube上线，欢迎收听观看。

Megan Rapinoe here. This week on a touch more, ESPN sports anchor and podcaster, Elle Duncan, joins to discuss the WNBA playoffs, the season's overachievers and underachievers, who got her vote for MVP, and the other end of season awards, and why. Check out the latest episode of a touch more wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

特别检察官调查是寻求正义的最佳方式吗？

Are special counsel investigations the best way to seek justice?

唐纳德·特朗普当前的所作所为与以往任何情况都有着本质区别。

What Donald Trump is doing right now is different in kind from everything that's come before.

我是普利特·巴拉拉，本周前联邦检察官、《敬请关注》特约撰稿人埃利·霍尼格将做客我的播客《普利特有话说》。我们将探讨特别检察官办公室的发展历程、其经手的重大案件，以及独立调查是否真如传闻般有效。节目已上线，欢迎在各大播客平台搜索订阅《普利特有话说》。

I'm Preet Bharara, and this week, former federal prosecutor and stay tuned contributor, Ellie Honig, joins me on my podcast, Stay Tuned with Preet. We discuss the special counsel's office, its evolution, its biggest cases, and whether independent investigations are really all they're cracked up to be. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

疫情过后，我感觉人们仍然对人际接触感到困惑——'该怎么正常交往？'

Post pandemic, I feel like people, like, are still like, oh, human contact? How do we do this?

别人怎么对你，你就怎么对待别人。友善礼貌很重要，但现在普遍散发着'离我远点'的气场。我连基本寒暄都收不到了，这挺伤人的。

You treat people like they treat you. Kindness and politeness are important. Like, get away from me is the energy right now. I'm not even getting pleasantries no more than it hurts.

这里是Vox的《为我解读》栏目，我是乔斯林·希尔。似乎人们变得比过去粗鲁多了，网上随便看看就能发现很多人都有同感。

It's explain it to me from Vox. I'm Jocelyn Hill, and it feels like people are way less polite than they used to be. A quick look online proves that a lot of you feel this way.

如果我为你撑着门，你应该说声谢谢。听着，如果你不想跟我打招呼，干脆别看我，这没问题。你不需要向我问好，但我认为路过他人时打个招呼是礼貌之举。今天伙计们，我亲眼目睹一位女士在Target超市过道里闲逛，耳机里的播客声音开得震天响。

If I'm holding the door open for you, you need to say thank you. You know, if you don't wanna say hello to me, just don't look at me. That's fine. You don't have to say hello to me, but I think it's a polite thing to do when you're walking past people to say hello to them. Today, you guys, I witnessed a woman listening to a podcast on full blast strolling the aisles of Target.

我们在开玩笑吗？这种事只让我一个人恼火，还是大家都有同感？

Are we kidding? Does that bother anyone else or just me?

为了探究我们的礼仪究竟沦丧到何种地步，我采访了Vox网站负责情感关系、社交健康与友谊专栏的撰稿人Ali Volpe。

To find out where exactly our manners have gone, I talked to Ali Volpe, who writes about relationships and social health and friendship at Vox.

是的。我们似乎正处在一个对待彼此方式诡异的时代。无论走到哪里，总能看到行为怪异、明显不在乎他人感受的人。谷歌搜索'这样算粗鲁吗？'的查询量在过去二十年持续攀升。

Yeah. It seems like we are in a weird time for how we're treating each other. Everywhere you go, it seems like there are people who are acting in ways that are pretty bizarre and are signifying it like they do not care about other people's comfort. Google searches for, quote, is it rude? Have steadily climbed over the last twenty years.

就连著名礼仪专家Emily Post的曾曾孙女Lizzie Post也经常被问到这个问题。她的前辈们同样面临过这类疑问——我们是否比过去更粗鲁了？有趣的是，似乎每一代人都认为下一代更无礼，这种认知本身反而成了种安慰。

And even Lizzie Post, who's the great great granddaughter of, like, the famous etiquette maven Emily Post gets this question all of the time. And her predecessors have gotten it too, of like, are we ruder now than we were in the past? And so it's almost a comfort to know that each generation seems to be facing the same issue of thinking the one that is following it is more rude.

明白了。你自己是否注意到这些无礼现象？日常生活中有没有让你觉得'这也太离谱了'的具体例子？

Okay. Have you noticed any of this rudeness yourself? Like, are there examples you have in your day to day life where you're like, oh, that was crazy.

噢，当然有。有人在电影院公然玩手机，现在连遮掩都懒得做了。我还见过在地铁里抽烟的，对我来说这些行为简直匪夷所思。

Oh, definitely. People openly scrolling on their phones in movie theaters, like not even trying to hide it anymore. I've seen someone like smoking a cigarette on the subway. Like that to me seems like really bizarre Yeah.

是的。我觉得最常见的就是人们用手机外放音乐。而且周围并没有一群人，他们也不是在说‘嘿，听听这个’。就是他们自己在那儿外放音乐。

Yeah. I think the thing that I see the most is people playing music on their phone out loud. And it's not like a crowd is around them and they're trying to like, you know, oh, listen to this. But it's just them and their music out loud.

我知道。我经常坐公交车，我很喜欢公交。但每次坐车都有人把TikTok视频开到最大声，或者开着免提视频通话，完全不用耳机。

I know. I know. And like, I I take the bus a lot. I love the bus. And like, it is every single time I'm on the bus, someone's like playing a TikTok full blast, having a FaceTime conversation, full out in the open without headphones.

我就觉得这太奇怪了。现在每个人都像在窥探别人的生活。你是想让所有人都知道你在干嘛吗？

And I'm like, this is bizarre. But like everyone's in your business now. Like you do do you

作为一个爱管闲事的人，这样倒挺方便，但别这么做。好吧，我们有些轶事证据，但人们现在真的变得更粗鲁了吗？

want everyone to know what's going on? I know. As a nosy person, it's good in that way, but don't do that. Okay. So we have this anecdotal evidence, but are people actually ruder now?

对。粗鲁很难量化，因为每个人的定义都略有不同。有位专家告诉我，粗鲁是指带有不尊重意味或违反社会规范的行为或言论。所以大家对‘不尊重’的理解会有些差异。不过有证据表明人们确实感觉我们变得粗鲁了。皮尤研究中心最近调查发现，近半数国人认为人们的行为比疫情前更粗鲁。

Right. It's like kind of hard to measure rudeness because everyone has like a slightly different definition of it. One of the experts I spoke to defined rudeness as a behavior and action or a comment that is meant to be disrespectful or violates a social norm. So everyone has like a little bit of a different idea of like what they consider disrespectful, you know, but there's some, like, evidence that people are feeling that we are being a little bit rude. There was a recent Pew Research Center survey that found that nearly half of the country believes that people's behavior is more rude than it was before the pandemic.

北卡罗来纳大学商学院教授2022年做的全球调查显示——那时正处于疫情变化期——73%受访者认为顾客粗鲁很常见，而2012年这个比例是61%。十年间这个涨幅相当显著。

And a UNC business professor conducted a worldwide survey in 2022. So sort of like in the midst of pandemic changes. And she found that 73% of respondents said it wasn't unusual for customers to be rude compared to 61% who said the same in 2012. So like that's a pretty significant jump over a decade.

为什么我们现在更粗鲁了？

Why are we more rude now?

没错。比如在那项2022年的专项调查中，她发现人们无礼行为的首要原因是感到压力或不堪重负。我认为这部分要归因于疫情——那确实是一段充满压力、混乱的时期，也是一个转折点，因为无礼可以被定义为违反社会规范的行为。

Right. Like, in that study in particular, the 2022 survey, she found the number one reason for people being rude was feeling stressed or overwhelmed. And I think that is, you know, in part because of the pandemic. The pandemic was a really stressful, crazy time. And it was an inflection point because because rude can be defined as like a behavior that like violates a social norm.

当我们回顾疫情期间，社会规范是在实时形成的，因为我们面对的是这个谁都不知道该如何应对的病毒。大量新社会规范涌现，同时也有许多方式去违背这些规范。很多人不愿戴口罩，不愿居家隔离。而且我们生活在一个极度两极分化的世界，疫情后这种情况只会更糟。确实如此。

And when when we think about the pandemic, social norms were being created in real time because we had this, like, virus that nobody knew what to do about. So there's a lot of new social norms cropping up and a lot of ways to defy those. We had a lot of people, you know, not wanting to mask, not wanting to stay home. Also, like, we live in a world that's incredibly polarized and it's only gotten worse since the pandemic. Like Yeah.

通货膨胀、关税壁垒、令人焦虑的新闻。人们比以往承受更大压力、更容易失控，这完全合乎情理。

Inflation, tariffs, stressful news. Like, it makes sense that people are more stressed and have shorter fuses than ever before.

你觉得这其中是否有特权意识作祟？我们经常被教导要把自己放在首位，这本身没错——长期以来人们确实不够重视自我。但这种观念是否正让我们变得不那么善解人意？

Do you think any of this is from a sense of entitlement? You know, we're told to put ourselves first a lot, which is good. For a long time, people haven't been thinking of themselves. But is that almost making us a little less empathetic?

是的。这个钟摆确实从'努力工作、牺牲奉献'大幅摆向了'不惜一切代价优先考虑自身舒适度'。我能理解——当今世界疯狂又充满压力，一切都显得格外艰难。

Yeah. Yeah. Like this pendulum has really swung from like like work hard, sacrifice to now prioritize your own comfort at all costs. And I understand it. Like the world is crazy and it's stressful right now and everything feels really hard.

于是人们通过某种方式来掌控局面：让自己的小世界更安全、更有序，进行自我安抚。为此，他们会排斥那些被视为'问题源头'的人。我认为我们有点矫枉过正了。

And so one way of controlling that is to buy like, to make your world a little safer, a little less chaotic, and to self soothe. And to do that, people are sort of pushing out other people that they see as problematic. And, you know, I think we've taken it a little too far.

有时很难当面指出别人的无礼行为，但更难判断他们的行为是否真的算无礼。我们该如何界定某种行为是否失礼呢？

It can sometimes be hard to confront people on their rudeness, but it's not always clear whether what they're doing is actually rude. How do you know if something is rude or not?

是啊，这太难了，因为有很多模棱两可的情况。比如最近，我刚跑完步，正和邻居聊天，她说，'我在几个街区前跟你打招呼，但你没理我'。我当时就想，天哪，因为我戴着耳机听着音乐。跑步时我特别专注。

Yeah. It is so hard because there's a lot of ambiguity. Recently, like, I was finishing up a run, I was like chatting with a neighbor and she was like, oh, I said hi to you like a couple blocks back but like you didn't say hi back to me. I'm like, oh my God, like because I had headphones on, I had my music. I like when I run, I'm like very in the zone.

我赶紧说，'天啊，我完全没看到你，太抱歉了'。但她有点责备我的意思，其实她完全可以认为，'阿里真没礼貌，完全无视我，明明看到我却故意不打招呼'。

And I'm like, oh my gosh, I just totally did not see you. I'm so sorry. But like she kinda called me out on it but like, she could have easily been like, oh, Ali was being rude. Like she totally ignored me. Like she saw me, she just wasn't saying hi.

因为很多时候人们就是没注意。你无法知道他们的真实意图。所以我觉得要提醒别人停下不当行为，这个分寸非常难把握。

Because like there are a lot of times when like people are just like not paying attention. Like you don't know what their intentions are. And so I think it's like a very very fine line to walk of like telling someone to like stop it.

明白了。这是遇到别人失礼的情况。那如何避免自己成为失礼的人呢？

Okay. That's if you encounter something that is rude. How do you keep from being the rude one?

嗯，我妈妈要是知道我现在引用她的话肯定会很高兴。她常说，'你唯一能控制的就是自己和自己的行为'——这是她一直试图灌输给我们的理念。我觉得在应对无礼行为时，这是最简单的做法。如果我们坚持礼貌友善的行为，首先就能为生活中的人（尤其是孩子）树立榜样。

Yeah. My mom will probably be really happy that I'm quoting her here, but she always says, like the only thing you can control is yourself and your own behavior. Like that was something she always tried to instill in us. And that I think is the easiest thing we can do when it comes to rudeness. Like the like if we just perpetuate polite, nice behavior, like that is number one modeling it for the people in our life, especially kids.

我们可以提醒自己，并非所有人都不礼貌。比如，'前几天那个男士还帮我扶着门呢，真贴心'。这样能帮你记住世界并非那么糟糕，我自己也可以做些类似的小事，为世界增添些正能量。

Like, we can remind ourselves that not everybody is being rude. You're like, oh, yeah. That guy held the door open for me the other day. Like, that was really nice. And, like, it just helps you remember like this world is not all bad and like I can do those little things like that too to sort of, you know, bring some positivity to the world.

好的，谢谢艾莉。这真是场非常礼貌的对话。

Alright. Thanks, Allie. That was a really polite conversation.

谢谢。

Thank you.

所以我们可以控制自己的行为，但自助产业通过我们的自控力赚取数十亿美元又怎么说呢？接下来我们将探讨这个问题。

So we can control our own behavior, but what about the self help industry making billions of dollars off of our self control? That's up next.

本节目由Framer赞助。一方面，我们不该以貌取人；另一方面，我们都经历过点开一个粗制滥造的网站后，下意识认为其背后的运营也同样糟糕。归根结底，做生意就需要网站，而建网站就需要Framer。

Support for the show comes from Framer. On the one hand, you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. On the other hand, we all know what it's like to stumble on a janky website and assume that the operation behind it is janky as well. Bottom line, if you run a business, you need a website. And if you need a website, you need Framer.

Framer是一款设计优先的无代码建站工具，让任何人都能在几分钟内发布专业级网站。这意味着你可以自由打造既专业精致又独具特色的网站，无需编码也不做妥协。内置AI将自动生成初始布局并处理后台代码，让你能一站式进行设计AB测试、设置转化漏斗并精准追踪用户点击热点。

Framer is the design first no code website that lets anyone ship a production ready site in minutes. That means that you have the freedom to build a website that is professional, polished, and uniquely yours. No code and no compromises. Built in AI will handle the heavy lifting by generating starter layouts and the coding behind the scenes. You'll be able to a b test your design, set up funnels, and see exactly where people click all from one place.

当你准备发布时，Framer会托管网站、确保极速加载并优化SEO，而你只需放松休息，把时间花在其他事情上。想不雇佣开发者就做出手工编码般精致的网站吗？立即访问framer.com免费建站，使用优惠码markets还可获赠首月专业版服务——framer.com促销码MARKETS。

And once you're ready to publish, Framer handles hosting, blazing fast load times, and SEO while you sit back, put your feet up, and do literally anything else with your time. Ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free at framer.com and use code markets to get your first month of pro on the house. That's framer.com promo code MARKETS. Framer.com promo code MARKETS.

可能有相关条款限制。

Rules and restrictions may apply.

大家好，我是Alex Heath，sources.news创始人兼The Verge特约撰稿人。

Hey. Alex Heath here, founder of sources.news and a contributor at The Verge.

我是埃利斯·汉堡，从科技记者转型为行业内部人士，与当今最热门的AI初创公司紧密合作。我们很高兴宣布与Vox Media播客网络联合推出新节目《Access》。

And I'm Ellis Hamburger, tech reporter turned industry insider, working closely with today's hottest AI startups. We're excited to announce the launch of our new show, Access, with the Vox Media Podcast Network.

《Access》是科技行业与硅谷最具影响力领袖的内部对话，从当今的科技巨头到明日最具远见的建设者。

Access is the tech industry's inside conversation with Silicon Valley's most influential leaders. From the tech titans of today to tomorrow's most visionary builders.

这是一档由内部人士为所有想窥见未来的人制作的节目。首期节目中，亚历克斯采访了马克·扎克伯格，探讨Meta最新智能眼镜、AI竞赛以及这家社交媒体巨头的下一步动向。

It's a show made by insiders for everyone who wants a glimpse into the future. In our first episode, Alex interviewed Mark Zuckerberg about Meta's latest smart glasses, the AI race, and what's next for the social media giant.

你不是刚告诉特朗普你要花掉大约60000亿美元吗？我是说，这...

I mean, didn't you just tell Trump you were gonna spend, like, 600,000,000,000? I mean, that's

是的。到2028年前，这笔钱...

I did. Yeah. Through 2028, which

那可是巨额资金。

is That's a lot of money.

确实。如果我们最终误用了其中几千亿美元，显然会非常糟糕。但我想说的是，我认为另一边的风险其实更高。

It is. And and if we end up misspending a couple of $100,000,000,000, I think that that is going to be very unfortunate, obviously. But what I'd say is I actually think the risk is higher on the other side.

您现在可以在YouTube、Spotify或任何您收听播客的平台找到《Access Pod》。

You can find the Access Pod now on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

我们回来了。这里是《向我解释》节目。我们想提出一个问题：我们是否过度沉迷于自助，以至于最终让自己变得反社交？杰西卡·拉姆·夏皮罗是《应许之地：穿越美国自助文化之旅》一书的作者。她在自助文化中长大，这让她对整个领域持怀疑态度。

We're back. It's explain it to me. And we wanted to ask the question, are we doing so much self help that we've ended up actually self helping ourselves into being antisocial? Jessica Lam Shapiro is the author of a book called Promised Land, My Journey Through America's Self Help Culture. She grew up around self help, and it left her kind of skeptical of it all.

我父亲是儿童心理学家，他写过育儿书籍。后来我发现他在书中以我为案例。虽然不能说我在被实验，但确实某种程度上是的——因为他既有儿童心理学的理论，又作为家长实践这些理论，同时作为自助作家进行写作。就这样，我在自助文化氛围中长大，不过说实话，我们这代人都是如此。

My dad was a child psychologist, and he wrote parenting books. And I later found out that he used me as an example in his parenting books. So I'm not gonna say I was being experimented on, but I was a little bit being experimented on because he had theories about child psychology and how to raise kids, and then he implemented those theories as a parent, but also as a self help writer. And so in that way, you know, I grew up around self help, but, like, we all did. You know?

因为这种文化无处不在。即使你不读自助书籍，生活中也随处可见励志标语。比如在Lululemon购物时，购物袋和海报上都是这类话语。它已经深深织入我们的生活体验，所以我认为每个人都算是在自助文化中长大的——哪怕他们的父亲不是自助书作家。

Because that kind of stuff percolates. Even if you're not reading a self help book, you know, we all see affirmations everywhere. And, like, if you ever shop at Lululemon, there's, like, a bunch of affirmations on their bag, and there's posters. And, like, we're just it's so kind of woven into the fabric of our experience that I kinda think everyone grew up with self help even if they didn't grow up reading self help books or having a self help book writer for a dad.

这类书籍存在多久了？

How long have these books been around?

首次正式使用'self help'这个词的著作出现在19世纪中叶。作家塞缪尔·斯迈尔斯曾为《利兹时报》撰稿，当时有个叫'互助进步会'的组织邀请他演讲。他讲述了许多劳动者从贫困走向权力阶层的轶事，大获成功——人们太爱这些故事了。

So the first incarnation of self help where they actually used the word self help, was in the mid eighteen hundreds. There was a writer named Samuel Smiles. He wrote for the Leeds Times, and there was a society called the Mutual Improvement Society, and they invited him to give a lecture. And he told these stories, these anecdotes about working men, you know, rising from poverty into positions of power, and it was hugely successful. People love the stories.

于是他开始进行更多演讲，最终在185年将这些内容集结成书，书名就叫《自助》。这本书一经出版就登上畅销榜。

So he started doing more and more lectures and then eventually made it into a book, and the book was called self help. It came out in 1859. It was immediately a bestseller.

自助精神是个人真正成长的根基，也体现在许多人的生活中。它构成了国家活力与力量的真正源泉。外界的帮助往往使人衰弱，而内在的帮助总能赋予人活力。

The spirit of self help is the root of all genuine growth in the individual and exhibited in the lives of many. It constitutes the true source of national vigor and strength. Help from without is often enfeebling in its effects, but help from within invariably invigorates.

所以它在我意识到之前就已经很流行了。而且你还能在古希腊斯多葛学派中找到先驱，比如公元160到180年左右，有位罗马皇帝马可·奥勒留写了本《沉思录》，现在这本书还被当作自助书籍销售。你去书店自助类书架就能找到马可·奥勒留的自助书。

So it was, like, popular way before I thought. And then you can also find predecessors in, like, this Greek stoics, which is, like, you know, hundred and sixty, hundred and eighty AD. There was a Roman emperor named Marcus Aurelius, who wrote a book called Meditations, and that book is actually sold as a self help book today. Like, if you go to your bookstore and you look in the self help section, can find Marcus Aurelius' self help.

天啊，我认识的每个男人都在读斯多葛学派。没错，我对这个名字相当熟悉。

Oh my god. Every man I know reads about stoicism. So, yes Yeah. I do know the name quite well.

你必须记住，对任何行动的关注都应与其价值相称。这样你就不会因过度纠缠琐事而感到疲惫放弃。

It is essential for you to remember that the attention you give to any action should be in due proportion to its worth. For then you won't tire and give up if you aren't busying yourself with lesser things beyond what should be allowed.

我写书时就在想，这不就是《别为小事抓狂》嘛。还记得那本畅销书吗？大概是我成长时的八九十年代。

Like, when I was writing the book, I was like, oh, you know, this is Don't Sweat the Small Stuff. Do you remember that book? It was like a best selling book. I don't know. When I was growing up, so eighties, nineties.

本质上是一样的道理，只是用了更严峻的表达方式——反正人终有一死，何必计较？这就是斯多葛版的'别为小事抓狂'，不过为了迎合当今快乐的美国重新包装了。核心信息完全一致。

And it basically is the same thing with a different, you know, more dire message. Like, we're all gonna die one day, so who cares? That's the sort of the stoic version of don't sweat the small stuff. But, you know, repackage for, like, today's happy America. It is basically the same message.

所以现在任何自助书籍，你总能找到至少一百年前就有人写过相同内容的先驱版本。

So, like, any self help book you find today, there's always a predecessor of, like, a 100 years or earlier that, like, somebody basically wrote the same thing.

自助产业规模有多大？

How big is the self help industry?

我其实查过这个数据。全球自助产业价值在450亿到590亿美元之间。它也被称为个人成长或自我提升，并不总是叫自助。而且这不仅包括书籍，还包括课程、抖音视频和每日励志日历之类的东西。

I actually had to look this up. The global self help industry is worth between 45 and $59,000,000,000. It's also called personal growth or self improvement, not always self help. And this isn't just books, but it's also like courses and TikToks and affirmation a day calendars.

所以你做了所有这些研究，部分目的是为了弄清楚自助书籍是不是骗局。它们是骗局吗？

So you did all of this work, and part of it was to find out if self help books are a scam. Are they a scam?

这是个很难回答的问题。我不会说它们都是骗局。但话说回来，自助书籍太多了。有好书，也有烂书。

This is a very difficult question. I wouldn't say that they're a scam. And then again, there are so many self help books. There's good ones. There's bad ones.

有些烂书也有可取之处。所以，如果你不完全把它们当圣经，可以有所取舍，找出哪些有帮助哪些没帮助。既然有数十亿美元花在这上面，看来我们确实热爱自助。我现在正看着我的书架，

There's bad ones that have some good qualities. So, like, if you kinda don't take everything as gospel, you can kinda pick and choose, like, what's helpful and what's not helpful. We it seems like we love self help if billions of dollars are being spent on it. I'm looking at my bookshelf as we speak,

我能看到一本金·斯科特写的《绝对坦率》。这只是我众多自助书籍中的一本。为什么我们

and I can see a copy of Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Like, I and that's just one of the many self help books I have. Why are

对这些如此着迷？我想是因为这个理念很吸引人：无论你现在生活如何，都可能变得更好。你知道，你可以更富有、更性感、更聪明、更受欢迎，或者效率更高。

we so drawn to these? I mean, I think it's a really appealing idea that whatever your life is, it could be better. You know, you could be richer, you could be hotter, you could be smarter. You could be more popular. You could be faster.

你知道，作为人类，我们很容易被这种想法吸引——我们可以比现在更出色，或者拥有比现在更棒的东西。这就是所谓的显化法则。对吧？从根本上说，这其实是个非常诱人的理念，我也很认同。我是说，我一直在努力把事情做得更好。

Like, you know, it's just an idea that's very appealing to us as human beings that we could just be more awesome than we are right now or have more awesome stuff than we have right now. That's, like, the whole manifesting thing. Right? At its base, it's actually a very appealing idea, and it appeals to me. I mean, I don't I'm always trying to do things better.

我在努力学习，试图变得更聪明、更善于社交，多出门走走，做个更好的狗主人。没错，我确实读过关于训犬的书。

I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to be smarter. I'm trying to be more social, leave my house more, you know, be a better dog owner. I have read Yeah. I have read books about dog training.

有意思的是，你最初对自助类书籍持怀疑态度，在写这本书时也是如此。你现在还这么认为吗？还是发现了其中的可取之处？

If it's it's interesting because you started out pretty skeptical of self help, you know, going into writing this book. Do you still feel that way? Or have you found redeeming things in it?

我确实发现了其中的价值。我认为接触自助理念时，永远应该保持一定的怀疑和批判态度，这样才能避开那些最古怪的想法——毕竟市面上确实存在一些非常离奇的理论。但话说回来，我写这本书时三十多岁，现在已年过四十。这些年政治、社会都发生了巨变。

I've definitely found redeeming things in it. You know, I absolutely think you should always retain a bit of skepticism and a little bit of cynicism when you're encountering self help, just to, you know, stave off the weirdest ideas because there are some really weird ideas out there. But also, you know, I I was in my thirties when I wrote the book. I'm in my forties now. And a lot has happened politically, socially.

疫情爆发了。那段时期对我和所有人来说都很艰难。所以我现在更能理解人们寻求自我帮助的冲动，甚至能理解这种理念本身的价值，尽管书中未必能完全实现它。

The pandemic happened. And those were, like, some tough times for me and for everybody. So I feel like I have a lot more sympathy for, like, the urge to self help and just sort of the idea of it, even if it doesn't get realized in the books.

近年来自助领域有什么变化吗？任何方面都行。

What's changed about self help in recent years? Anything at all?

我注意到这个领域变得更专业、更主流了。比如布琳·布朗这样的学者，她既是学术研究者，有实际研究支撑自己的观点，同时又被视为自助作家——她的书确实帮助过很多人。

One thing I've noticed is that they've kind of become better, and more mainstreamed. I'm thinking of, like, someone like Brene Brown, who is an academic researcher and actually has, you know, studies to back up the things she's saying, but also is sometimes seen as a self help writer, and certainly her books have helped people.

脆弱性是我们衡量勇气最精确的尺度——敢于脆弱，敢于展现真实的自己，敢于诚实。如果我们要重新找到彼此的联系，脆弱性将成为那条必经之路。

Vulnerability is our most accurate measurement of courage to be vulnerable, to let ourselves be seen, to be honest. If we're going to find our way back to each other, Vulnerability is going to be that path.

某种程度上这场讨论被升华了，变得更富有智性，我认为这对更多人具有吸引力。因此他们为自助领域带来了全新的读者群。从某种角度说，这使得这类书籍变得更好，它们无疑成为了更优质且引人入胜的读物。

So there's kind of a elevating of the discussion where it's, like, a little bit more intellectual, and I think that appeals to more people. And so they brought in, like, a whole new audience to self help. And I think in a way, the books have become better as a result, and they're certainly better and more interesting reads.

你觉得我们是否过度沉迷于自我提升？比如，我们是否在过分努力地优化自己，追求成为最好的自己？

Do you think we're overdoing it on self help? Like, are we trying too hard to fully optimize ourselves to be our best selves?

是的，毫无疑问。我认为我们痴迷于进步，痴迷于效率。你知道，我并不认为这一定是健康的。

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I think we're, like, obsessed with betterment, obsessed with productivity. You know, I don't think that's healthy necessarily.

自助类书籍之所以吸引人，是因为你会想：与其花数年时间接受治疗、花费数千美元，不如花20美元买这本书，立刻感觉好转并可能有所收获。但我认为当我们谈论自助时，我们正在丧失那种社群属性——一切都要独自完成。这样做会错失建立社群、加强人际关系的良机，因为我知道这对我产生的影响：当我试图独自解决问题时，我依然形单影只。

You know, self help books are appealing because, like, you're thinking, like, oh, well, I'm gonna go to therapy for years, and I'm gonna spend thousands of dollars. I could just buy this book for $20 and feel better immediately and maybe get something out of it. But I think we're really losing the sort of community aspect when you're talking about self help and everything is done by yourself. I think when you do that, you lose the opportunity to have a community and to strengthen your relationships with other people because I know that's what it's done for me. When I try to help myself on my own, I'm still by myself.

而如果我寻求帮助，实际上我正在强化人际关系，并且收获的远不止于最初寻求的帮助。这种社群意识至关重要。如今太多人感到孤独疏离，蜷缩在电脑后面——能走出来真正与他人或组织建立联系，我认为不仅对社会大有裨益（因为人们投身社群显然对社会有利），对个人也同样重要，能让人感受到社群支持，而非完全孤立无援。

Whereas if I ask for help, you know, I'm I'm strengthening my relationships, and I'm getting a lot more out of it than just the help that I was looking for. And I think that that sense of community is really important. And so many people are feeling lonely and alienated and, you know, behind their computer that like to get out from that and actually make contact with another person or an organization, I think, is really beneficial, you know, not just to society because it's definitely beneficial to society to have people invested in the community, but also to the individual to kind of feel like they have community support and they're not just completely isolated and alone.

接下来，我们将探讨如何重建这种社群连接。

Coming up, how to get that community back.

各位网友大家好！我是Marques Brownlee，也叫MKBHD。今年最重磅的智能手机即将发布，包括前所未见的新款iPhone 17系列。在Waveform播客中，我和联合主持人Andrew Manganelli、David Amell每周都会汇总最热科技资讯，深入探讨我们期待的新品——偶尔也会吐槽令人失望的产品。这个时期我们称之为'智能手机季'。如果你想了解苹果、三星、谷歌等品牌的最新动态，记得在Spotify、Apple Podcasts或任何你常用的平台收听Waveform播客。

What is up, people of the Internet? My name is Marques Brownlee, aka MKBHD, and some of the biggest smartphones of the year are about to launch, including the brand new iPhone seventeens around the corner with a model you've never seen before. So on the Waveform podcast, myself and cohost Andrew Manganelli and David Amell gather the biggest tech news of each week and then discuss at length everything we're excited about and sometimes things we're not so excited about. So this time of year, we like to call smartphone season. So if you're interested in hearing all the latest releases from Apple and Samsung and Google and others, be sure to check out the Waveform podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

我们节目里见。

See you there.

欢迎回到《为你解读》节目。当今社会我们比以往更孤独，部分原因在于人际交往中那些存在或缺失的互动方式——也就是我们的界限问题。为此我采访了Nedra Glover Tawab。

We're back. It's explain it to me. So we're more lonely than ever these days, and that's partly because of the ways we are and aren't interacting with each other. In other words, our boundaries. I spoke to Nedra Glover Tawab about this.

她是持证心理治疗师，著有《设定界限，找到平静》等多部作品。不过在深入探讨前，我们需要先明确什么是界限。

She's a licensed therapist and author of several books, including set boundaries, find peace. But before we got into that, we needed to establish some boundaries of our own, Like, what boundaries are in the first place.

界限是人际关系中让我们感到安全舒适的需求与期待。它可以口头表达，也可以通过行为展现，本质上是你经营关系的方式——维护关系健康，让彼此相处得更好。

Needs and expectations in our relationships that make us feel safe and comfortable. The boundary can be verbal, it can be a behavior that you start to exhibit, But it is a way for you to show up in your relationships, hopefully, save them, keep them well, be better in them.

你写了很多关于界限的内容，最初是什么吸引你研究这个领域？

So you write a lot about boundaries. What got you interested in boundaries?

当我刚开始做治疗师时，很多来访者都在谈论工作生活平衡问题、家庭矛盾和伴侣关系。人际关系中最难的就是保持主见。我们开始用'界限'这个词来讨论自我主张：你希望对方了解什么？我们该如何处理这种情况？

Well, when I first became a therapist, so many of my clients were talking about work life balance, challenges with family, challenges with their partners. And one of the very hard things to do in relationships is to be assertive. And we started to talk about boundaries, with using the B word of boundaries, but about self advocacy. What would you want them to know? How do we manage this situation?

对我而言，这转化为边界问题。

Which for me translates to boundary issues.

这种情况在你的临床实践中出现的频率如何？

How often does this come up in your clinical practice?

我想说时刻都在发生，但我不使用边界这个词。我们会讨论他们的具体情况。我更倾向于将其视为寻找解决方案的过程。我认为使用术语并不总是我们解决问题的最佳方式，比如直接说'好吧，你是个讨好型人格，我们这样做'。我们可以直接讨论你提到的任何问题。你允许别人以让你不舒服的方式占用你的时间。

I would say all the time, but I don't use the word boundaries. We talk about their situations. And I like to think of it as coming up with solutions. I don't think using terminology is always the best way for us to work through our issues to say, Okay, so you're a people pleaser, let's do this thing, We can just talk about whatever issue you're talking about. You allowed someone to use your time in a way that you are uncomfortable with.

我们如何避免未来再发生这种情况？不必用'你是个讨好者'这样的标签。我们真正要讨论的是眼前的具体情况。

How do we prevent that in the future? We don't have to use the word you're a people pleaser, don't have to give you a label. We're really talking about what's presently in front of us.

我们是否过度使用这些治疗术语了？特别是如今在中产阶级年轻人中。我们是否在某种程度上扭曲了这些概念？

Is it possible we're overdoing this therapy speak, especially I think among middle class young people these days? Are we sort of twisting these concepts at all?

确实存在扭曲。我将其比作在日常生活中使用医学术语与人交流——就像你告诉我膝盖受伤时，我不会列举骨骼名称。我对膝盖结构并不完全了解。但在心理治疗领域，人们动辄就说'双相障碍'、'这个人有边界问题'、'他们有依恋问题'，却没有实际临床技能来真正诊断并帮助人们有效解决问题，只是贴标签而已。这些术语在某种程度上限制了理解，使我们失去了细微差别的把握。

We are twisting them. I liken it to us using medical terminology in our everyday conversations with people, which you don't typically see people doing like I'm not naming bones when you told me you hurt your knee. Right? Like, I don't know all of the parts of the knee, but I find that with therapy, people are saying like bipolar, this person has a boundary issue, they have an attachment this, it's this thing, without the clinical skills to actually diagnose and help people troubleshoot in a way that is actually helpful and not just labeling them. So I think that the terminology in a way it boxes it in, it leaves us without nuance.

我们也没有给予人们足够的灵活性，在定义'你是个讨好者'时就限定了他们的身份。

And we're not giving people enough flexibility in who they are in saying that you're a people pleaser.

我们是否应该把这些原则普遍应用在所有互动对象身上？还是说这更多关乎那些非常私密的亲密关系？

Are we meant to apply these things, you know, sort of blanket across the board with everyone we interact with? Or is this more about these really personal closer relationships?

我认为边界可以是普适的，但也需要保持灵活性。边界是有层次之分的。当人们缺乏边界时，你会看到很多讨好型行为，我称之为渗透性边界。而我们现在常见的是另一种极端——刚性边界，就是你提到的这种。刚性边界就像筑起高墙，制定铁律，把所有人都挡在外面。

Well, I think boundaries can be universal, but they should also be flexible. There are levels to boundaries. You see a lot of people pleasing when people don't have boundaries and I would label those as porous boundaries. Then we have rigid boundaries, which we're starting to see a lot of and that's what you're speaking to. Rigid boundaries is where we have these walls, we have these hard rules and we keep everyone out.

对所有人都用同一套规则。但根据我处理各种关系的经验，其实每个人需要的规则都不尽相同。

Everybody gets the same rule. Well, I'll tell you, because I have so many variety of relationships, everybody doesn't even need the same rule.

关于如何建立更好的边界，你会给客户什么建议？我指的是边界过于渗透和过于刚性这两种情况。人们该如何改进呢？

What's some advice you give your clients about how to set better boundaries? And I mean that both when the boundaries are too porous and when they're too rigid. Like, how do people do better?

对于过于刚性的边界，我常发现当事人对维持边界存在强烈不适感。所以我们会探讨：这个边界是你真正想要的，还是你觉得应该有的？这是你试图实施的某种惩罚吗？还是你感到的内疚？很多来做咨询的人长期忍受某些事情，所以才会出现过度防御的边界。

Yeah, well, with too rigid boundaries, I often find that they have a lot of this discomfort around holding the boundary and so we explore is this a boundary you even want to have or is this a boundary that you feel like you should have? Is this some sort of punishment you're trying to issue? Is this guilt that you're feeling? So very often with folks who come to therapy, they've been tolerating things for a very long time. And so that's why we've seen a lot of overactive boundaries, right?

因为人们长期忍受叔叔、表亲、朋友或工作的折磨，当终于设立边界时，就会变成怒吼、尖叫、充满攻击性——因为我们受够了。所以需要思考：我能实施哪些可持续的边界？什么样的边界能让我在这段关系中感到舒适？如果所有边界最终都导致关系断绝——这种情况我见过——那就没有中间地带，要么维持关系，要么彻底结束。

Because people have been tolerating their uncle, their cousin, their friend, their job for so long that when the boundary comes out, it's a yell, it's a scream, it's aggressive, it's firm because we're tired. And so we have to think about what are the boundaries that I can implement here that I can actually live with? What are the boundaries here that would make me feel comfortable in this relationship? If all of your boundaries end in a cut off, because I see that sometime, The boundary is a cut off. There is no in between is either we're in relationship or we are not.

难道就没有介于两者之间的方法吗？就像职场中的绩效改进计划：你给对方列出需要改进的事项，或自己承担某些责任来改善关系。但我们总是直接从问题跳到解雇。

Have there been any things in between that help you all stay in a relationship in jobs? We call that a performance review plan, right? So you give somebody some things that they need to do, or you take on some things that you need to do, so the relationship can be better. But we are going right from problem to firing.

如果你的客户想要与人建立联系却感到困难，你会如何鼓励他们？

How do you encourage your clients to connect with people if they want to and they're struggling to?

我们会做很多情景预设。现在是九月，我告诉你，特别是十月这个时间段，我的许多客户开始谈论他们的家庭问题。因为很多客户我已经跟进多年，所以我们现在就可以从九月开始讨论：当你感恩节回家只能睡沙发而姐姐独占卧室时，今年我们该采取什么不同做法？这些都是关于界限的问题，对吧？

We do a lot of scripting. It's September right now and I'll tell you, this is the time of year, particularly October where a lot of my clients start talking about their family stuff. And so during this time, because know, a lot of my clients, I've seen them for years, so guess what? We can start right now in September and we start talking about okay, so when you go home for Thanksgiving, and you got to sleep on the couch and your sister gets to bed room, what are we doing different this year? What are we these are these are boundary things, right?

他们可能会选择住酒店，或在节日前商量好轮流睡卧室的方案——有时她睡床，有时我睡床。关键是要在预知情况发生前主动规划。

So the different thing that they might do is they stay in a hotel. They decide to have the conversation before the holiday that perhaps this would be a rotating thing, right? Sometimes they get the couch, sometimes I get the couch. So it's really about being proactive when you know situations will occur.

这期节目我们讨论了很多关于生活日益个体化的现象，谈到自助文化等等。但归根结底，你唯一能控制的只有自己。或许应该思考：在这些情境下，我能通过哪些方式掌控自己的反应？

We've spent this episode we've talked about, I don't know, just how so much of life is individualistic now. We've talked about self help and all these different things, but it does seem like at the end of the day, the only thing you can control is yourself. So maybe it's just thinking, okay, what are the ways that I control myself in these situations?

当听到人们抱怨人际关系时，我常想到：我们实际需要的社交支持比现有更多。这正是为什么我们会过度依赖某个朋友、父母或兄弟姐妹——我们需要更广阔的社交网络。现在很多人过度聚焦于少量关系，反而导致抑郁和孤独，因为我们的人际资源根本不足以支撑随意断绝关系。

You know, one of the things that I think about often when I hear people lamenting about relationships is we actually need more community than we have. And that's why we put so much pressure on the one friend or on our parents or the one sibling or the we just need more people. Many of us is we're hyper focused on very few relationships. So now it's leading to depression and loneliness because we don't have enough people to be kicking people out of our lives.

以上是治疗师兼作家内德拉·格洛弗·托沃布的分享。我们正在制作关于父亲角色演变专题，如果你是父亲，请告诉我们：你成为父亲的初衷是什么？父亲身份如何改变了你的友谊观？期待你的故事。

That's therapist and author Nedra Glover Twobb. We're doing an episode on how fatherhood and our idea of a good dad is changing. So if you're a dad, give us your thoughts. Why did you decide to become a dad, and how has fatherhood changed your friendships? We'd love to hear from you.

欢迎致电+1 806188545或发送语音邮件至askVox@Vox.com。本期节目由阿维沙伊·阿尔齐制作，米兰达·肯尼迪主编，梅根·卡南协助，事实核查由梅丽莎·赫希和伊莎贝尔·利希滕斯坦完成，本周音频工程师是马修·比利。

Give us a call at +1 806188545 or send us a voice memo to askVox@Vox.com. This episode was produced by Avishai Artsy. It was edited by Miranda Kennedy with help from Megan Kanan. Fact checking by Melissa Hirsch and Isabelle Lichtenstein. And our engineer this week was Matthew Billy.

特别感谢《今日解析》的联合主持人诺埃尔·金，他学识渊博。如果你想收听更多Vox Media的播客节目，请访问podcast.voxmedia.com。我是主持人乔斯林·希尔，感谢收听，再见。

Special thanks to Noel King, the cohost of Today Explained, who's very well read. If you wanna check out more podcasts from Vox Media, head over to podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm your host, Jocelyn Hill. Thanks for listening. Bye.