生活在火星上

今天，Explain，Shahbrough，在华盛顿特区的航空航天博物馆外提问，你会想住在火星上吗？

Today, Explain, Shahbrough, outside the Air and Space Museum in Washington DC to ask, would you want to live on Mars?

不，我不想住在火星上。不，我只是觉得那太危险了。是的。

No. I wouldn't wanna live on Mars. No. I just think simply it's just too dangerous. Yeah.

哦，当然想。毫无疑问。

Oh, hell, yeah. Of course.

能看到不同的风景并成为先驱者会很酷。

It'd be cool to see something different and be pioneers.

即使存在风险？

Even with the risk involved?

我是说，我们走在街上也是在冒着生命危险。

I mean, we risk our lives when we walk out here on the streets.

不，我会想念我的家人。他们都在这儿。我不想抛下他们。

No. I would miss my family. They're all here. I would not wanna leave them behind.

如果能拿到报酬的话，我会去。

If I got paid for it, yeah.

你想要多少报酬才愿意去？

How much did you wanna get paid for it?

一万美元。

$10,000.

就这样吗？

That's it?

是啊，你得要求更多。

Yeah. You gotta ask for more.

好吧，100万美元。

Okay. $1,000,000.

这才像话。

That's more like it.

不行，因为死亡风险太高了。

No. Because the risk of death is too high.

有哪些风险？

What are the risks?

你看过《火星救援》吗？

Have you seen The Martian?

马特·达蒙演的那部？

With Matt Damon?

对，谢谢。

Yeah. Thank you.

今天Vox的《今日解说》讲的是在火星上生活。

Living on Mars on Today Explained from Vox.

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Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group, column NA, and Evolve Bank and Trust. Members FDIC.

《今日解说》，我是肖恩·拉莫斯费尔。今天与我一同探讨的是生物学家凯莉·维纳斯密斯，她是《火星上的城市》一书的合著者，这本书与我们今天的主题——火星殖民息息相关。

Today Explained, Sean Ramosfer. I'm here with biologist Kelly Wienersmith, who's the co author of a book called A City on Mars, all about our subject today, settling Mars.

是的。埃隆·马斯克希望建立一个自给自足的定居点，为人类打造一个备份。

Yeah. So Elon Musk wants a self sustaining settlement. So he wants a backup for humanity.

我认为，拥有两个自给自足且强大的星球，对于文明的长期存续将至关重要。

Having two planets that are both self sustaining and strong, I think, is gonna be incredibly important for the long term survival of civilization.

杰夫·贝索斯则希望我们将重工业迁至太空以拯救地球，并将人口从地球迁移到太空。

Jeff Bezos wants us to move heavy industry to space to save Earth and move population from Earth to space.

我们可以将所有重工业和污染工业移出地球，在太空中运作它们。

We can move all heavy industry and all polluting industry off of Earth and operate it in space.

此外，另一个常见论点是，太空资源将让我们变得富有。

And then other common arguments are, you know, space resources will make us rich.

世界上第一个万亿富翁将是第一个开采小行星的人。

The first trillionaire in the world is gonna be the person who first mines asteroids.

太空将让人类得以扩展生存空间。我们不再需要争夺土地，因此战争要么会消失，要么至少会大幅减少。

Space will allow humans to spread out. We won't fight over land anymore, so it will make war, either obsolete or at least a lot less common.

我希望能看到，呃，你知道，一万亿人类生活在太阳系中。

I would love to see, you know, a a, you know, a trillion humans living in the solar system.

但我认为最有力的论点是，人类需要备份计划，不过我完全不同意马斯克提出的时间表。

But the arguments that I think are the best are that we need a backup for humanity, but I totally disagree with Musk on the timeline.

埃隆·马斯克曾表示，他的公司SpaceX最早能在2029年将人类送上火星。

Elon Musk has said that his company, SpaceX, can get humans to Mars as early as 2029.

我认为大多数人如果被追问，他们真正想说的是太空探索太棒了，没人有权阻止他们。只要你的行为确实不伤害他人，这个论点就成立。但到书稿完成时，我们仍无法确定这一点——如果最终演变成核武大国之间的太空领土争夺，这可能影响全人类。所以这是一项关乎所有人的活动。

And the I think most people, if you push, what they really wanna say is that space is awesome, and no one has a right to stop them. And so that argument holds as long as the thing you're doing really doesn't hurt anyone. And by the end of the book, it wasn't clear to us that that was the case because if we end up for a scramble for territory in space between nuclear wielding superpowers, that could have implications for all of us. So it it is an activity that impacts us all.

我们在节目里讨论火星很久了。我觉得需要从最基础的问题开始：人类究竟要怎么去火星？

We've been talking about Mars for a while in this show. I think we need to, like, just start from square one. Like, how do we go about getting humans to Mars?

没错。火星之旅会非常漫长。以现有技术需要6到9个月才能抵达。在此期间，你会暴露在太空辐射中。是的。

Yeah. So the trip to Mars is gonna be a long one. With current technology, it will take somewhere between six to nine months to get there. During that trip, you're gonna be exposed to space radiation. Yes.

我们会设置防护罩，但防护罩既笨重又昂贵，可能无法提供充分保护。此外，现有方案中的航天器都不具备旋转功能来制造人工重力。因此旅途中，你会像空间站里的宇航员那样面临骨质流失、肌肉萎缩甚至视力损伤。这不仅是危险之旅，更可能是身体逐渐崩溃的过程。

We'll have shielding, but shielding is heavy and expensive, so we might not have all the shielding that we need. Additionally, none of the current proposals include spacecraft that are rotating, so that would create artificial gravity. So during this trip, you're going to be seeing the loss of bone and muscle and maybe even vision that we see on astronauts on the space stations. So it could be, you know, not just a dangerous trip, but also a trip where your body is sort of breaking down along the way.

然后，希望抵达时你还活着。

And then, hopefully, you're still alive when you get there.

是啊，祝我们好运吧。

Yeah. Fingers crossed.

当人们普遍谈论太空定居点时，火星上的具体情形会是什么样？会看起来和地球一样吗？我觉得不会。

When people are generally talking about space settlements, what exactly might that look like on Mars? Would it just look like Earth? I don't think so.

不，完全不会像地球。而且我认为大多数想去火星的人对这个想法都完全能接受。但想象一下火星上的典型一天——你会在地下掩体里醒来，因为辐射像雨一样落在火星表面，火星没有地球这样的辐射防护层。

No. No. It's not gonna look like Earth at all. And I think most of the people who want to go to Mars are totally comfortable with that idea. But, like, you know, a typical day on Mars, you would wake up in an underground bunker because radiation is raining down on the surface of Mars because Mars doesn't have the radiation protections we have here on Earth.

所以大多数方案都包括在地下生活。你不能走出居住舱，因为火星大气压只有地球的1%，这个压力对人体来说太低了。氮气会从你的血液里冒出来导致死亡，这可不是什么好死法。所以不能外出。

So most of the proposals include living underground. You can't step outside of your habitat because Mars has 1% of the atmosphere of Earth, and that's too low for our bodies to survive. So, like, the nitrogen would bubble out of your blood and kill you. Probably not a great way to go. So no going outside.

每天大部分时间要花在自给农业上。种植食物和进行回收利用会非常困难，这些都是维持居住地可持续运转的必要工作。可能还需要大量锻炼，因为40%的地球重力可能不足以保持肌肉和骨骼强度。

A lot of the day is gonna be spent on things like subsistence farming. It's gonna be hard to grow our own food and do the recycling that we would need to do to make these habitats sustainable, and probably a lot of exercise because 40% of Earth's gravity might not be enough to keep our muscles strong and our bones strong.

想到这个有毒、致命、荒凉的星球会成为人类的某种救赎还挺有趣的，因为你刚才描述的情景听起来实在不像是能拯救我们的样子。

It's funny to think of this toxic, deathly, desolate planet being the sort of salvation for humanity because what you're describing right now sounds not exactly like like like something that's gonna save us.

没错。但问题是太空其他地方更糟糕。火星有些优势：它的昼夜周期与地球很接近，会让人有家的感觉；温度波动相比其他行星更温和；而且拥有我们生存所需的大量基础元素。

Yeah. But so the rest of space sucks even more is the thing. So, you know, like, Mars has some good stuff. So it has a day and night cycle that's pretty close to Earth, so that'll feel kinda home like. The temperature swings on Mars are pretty moderate compared to what you find on a lot of other planets, and it has a lot of the building blocks that we're going to need to live.

氧气、碳和水在火星几乎随处可见，只是需要费点功夫提取，要净化某些化学物质才能饮用，但我们需要的所有物质那里都有。所以我认为可以预见火星上出现自给自足定居点的那天，而在太阳系其他地方很难想象这种可能。

It's got oxygen and carbon and water just about everywhere. You gotta work a little hard to find it. You gotta clean out some chemicals to make it drinkable, but all the stuff we need is there. So I I think you can imagine a day when you would have a self sustaining settlement on Mars, and it's hard to imagine that happening just about anywhere else in the solar system.

好吧。假设我们真的建成了那个定居点，有五六个人或十几个人住在上面。我们讨论过一些物理挑战，那心理上的挑战呢？

Okay. So let's say we get to that settlement and whatever. There's a group of a half dozen or a dozen people living up there. We've talked about some of the physical challenges. What about the psychological ones?

是的，心理问题可能相当严重。需要制定支持计划，可能得带心理学家同行，因为他们没法给家里打电话。在国际空间站郁闷时还能给妻子打电话，但在火星不行。

Yeah. Those could be pretty intense. So you're gonna need plans for how to provide them with support. You might want to send a psychologist with you on this trip because they're not gonna be able to make calls home. So, you know, if you're on the International Space Station and you're bummed out, you can call your wife.

要知道，它们距离足够近，这样是可行的。但火星存在通信延迟，最短三分钟，最长可达二十到二十二分钟。而且当火星位于太阳另一侧与地球相对时，你根本无法联系。所以所有支持系统都必须自给自足，因为你无法实时通话——无论是和女友、母亲还是心理医生。

You know, they're close enough. It works. But Mars has a communication delay that's a minimum of three minutes and as much as, like, twenty to twenty two minutes. And sometimes when Mars is on the other side of the sun from Earth, you can't call it all. So all of your support needs to be self contained because you're not gonna be able to have, you know, live calls with your girlfriend, your mother, your psychiatrist, any of those things.

可能还会有点无聊，所以你得提前规划。要是能带上奈飞片库就最好了。

And it's probably gonna be a little boring, so you'll want to plan ahead. You'll wanna bring Netflix if you can.

还有个概念叫火星地球化改造对吧？这样能改善状况吗？这真的可行吗？

There's also this idea of, like, terraforming Mars and making it more Earth like. Right? Would that help? Is that even possible?

从技术上说或许可行。但想想火星环境有多恶劣，改造工程有多浩大——尤其当我们连地球气温上升2摄氏度都束手无策时，控制火星气候使其类地化的想法实在疯狂。多数方案都类似用核武器轰炸极地释放水蒸气，这些气体会被火星稀薄大气层捕获并逐渐升温。

I mean, it may technically be possible. I mean, when you think about how awful Mars is and the lengths that you'd have to go to to terraform it, it seems crazy when you think about how, you know, we're dealing with a two degrees Celsius increase in temperature here on Earth, and it's causing us all these problems. The idea that we could control the Martian climate to get it to be Earth like is a bit out there. But, you know, most of the proposals involve things like dropping nuclear weapons on the poles to liberate the water vapor, which would get trapped in Mars' thin atmosphere and slowly warm things up.

有快慢两种方法。

There's the fast way and the slow way.

快说快说，我要听快的方案。

Okay. Give me me the give me the fast way.

快的方法就是在极地投放热核武器。

The fast way is is drop thermonuclear weapons over the poles.

你这是超级反派行径啊。

You're a supervillain. That's what a supervillain does.

就是。

Yeah.

这种工程需要数十年甚至数百年才能完成。而且国际法并未明确允许这种行为——火星和所有太空领域属于全人类。在火星扔核弹前，你最好先取得国际社会的集体同意。但我觉得联合国会议上这事很难顺利通过。

This would be something that would take decades, maybe hundreds of years to accomplish. And it's not really clear according to international law that you're allowed to do that. So Mars and all of the rest of space belongs to all of humanity. So before you go dropping nuclear weapons on Mars, you should probably get the whole international community to give that activity the thumbs up, and I'm not super optimistic that would go down well at the UN.

我很高兴你提到了联合国。那里现在是谁在掌权？

I'm glad you brought up the UN. Who's in charge up there?

这取决于火星人来自哪里。根据国际法，一旦有人或公司进入太空，就会有相应的国家负责监管。所以如果埃隆·马斯克的SpaceX送了一群美国公民上太空，那么美国就有责任确保这些火星人继续遵守国际法。

Well, it depends on where the Martians came from. So according to international law, somebody is in charge of people or corporations once they go. So if Elon Musk drew SpaceX sends a bunch of United States citizens to space, then The United States would be in charge of making sure that, the Martians continued to follow international law.

如果是中国的话，那就是中国负责。

And if it's China, it's China.

没错，正是这样。

And yep. That's right.

但当然，那里也存在潜在的冲突可能。

But there's the potential for conflict there too, of course.

绝对是的。国际法对于在太空中允许做什么并不明确。你不能对太空中的任何东西宣称主权。所以马斯克不能上去宣称一个他称之为'莫斯科'之类的国家。

Absolutely. Yeah. So international law is not clear about what you're allowed to do once you're up there. So you're not allowed to claim sovereignty over anything in space. So Musk can't go up there and claim, you know, a nation that he calls Moscow or something like that.

但你可以降落在任何你想降落的地方然后永远不离开。看起来你也可以开采资源并出售。所以，第一次太空竞赛只是为了第一个登上月球然后回家，而这次新的太空竞赛将是在美国和中国之间，争夺太空的最佳位置并长期驻留，即使你不称之为中国或美国第二，实际上还是在独占这些地方。

But you can land you can land anywhere you want and then never leave. And it looks like you can extract resources and sell them. And so, you know, whereas the first space race was just to get to the moon first and step on it and then go home. It looks like this new space race is gonna be between The United States and China, and now it's about grabbing the best parts of space and staying there so that even if you don't call them, you know, China and The US part two, you're still essentially keeping them just for yourself.

你知道吗，这很有趣。在我们上一期关于火星的节目中，我们讨论了人类合作在太空中完成非凡事业的可能性作为一种激励因素。有没有可能，与其将来和中国或其他国家在火星上发生地盘争夺，不如现在在我们开始制定计划时就与对手合作？有人讨论过这个吗？

You know, it's funny. On our last show about Mars, we talked about this sort of potential for humanity to work together to accomplish remarkable things out in space as as sort of a motivating factor. Is there any chance that, like, instead of maybe ending up in some turf war with China or whomever else in Mars one day, like, right now, as we're starting to hatch plans to do this, we could collaborate with our adversaries. Is anyone talking about that?

确实有人在努力让各方聚在一起制定一个让大家都满意的计划，以避免这种争夺。这就是为什么我在书中称自己为'太空混蛋'——我能在你们节目上说'混蛋'这个词吗？我可以说'太空混蛋'。

There's absolutely people who are trying to get all the parties together to figure out a plan that makes everybody happy so that you don't end up with this scramble. This is why I call myself in the book a space bastard. Am I allowed to say bastard on your show? I can say a space jerk.

不，你可以说混蛋。

No. You're allowed to say bastard.

好的。太棒了。是的。一个太空混蛋，因为你知道，你去参加太空定居会议时，人们会说出所有这些美好的事情。而我也同样被太空所激励和震撼。

Okay. Great. Yeah. A space bastard because, you know, you go to space settlement conferences, and people say all of these beautiful things. And I I also am inspired and awed by space.

但我认为，当你承担的任务可能导致人员死亡，并可能对地球上的人们产生影响时，重要的是你也要清醒地认识到，你知道，人类会做的那些事情。但我希望我们能找到一条和平的前进道路。

But I think that when you're taking on a task where people could die and there could be implications for people back here on Earth, it's important that you also be clear eyed about, you know, the kinds of things that humans do. But I hope that we figure out a path forward that's peaceful.

凯莉·维纳斯密斯，太空混蛋或太空混蛋（如果孩子们在场的话），她有一个播客。叫做《丹尼尔和凯莉的非凡宇宙》。去听听吧。我不知道你对火星的看法如何，但对我来说，就像，为什么不两者兼顾呢？为什么不在尽我们所能探索太空的同时，解决我们地球上的所有问题呢？

Kelly Wienersmith, space bastard or space jerk if the kids are around, She's got a podcast. It's called Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. Check it out. I don't know where you land on Mars, but for me, it's like, why not both? Why not work on all our earthly problems while exploring space to the best of our abilities?

为什么不两者兼顾呢？一位天体物理学家会告诉我们为什么不两者兼顾，当我们回到《今日解说》时。

Why not both? An astrophysicist will tell us why not both when we're back on Today Explained.

《今日解说》由Thrive Market赞助。如果你一直在享受你的夏天，Thrive Market想提醒你，夏天终将结束，所以他们正在进行返校促销活动。好吧，让我们来看看。如果你想让你家的食品储藏室装满返校季所需的一切，Thrive Market说，你可能想看看Thrive Market。

Support for Today Explained comes from Thrive Market. If you've been enjoying your summer, Thrive Market wants to remind you that it's gonna end at some point, and so they're having a back to school sale. Okay. Let's check it out. If you want your pantry to be full of everything your family needs for back to school time, says Thrive Market, you might wanna check out Thrive Market.

顺便说一句，即使你不是返校的学生，Thrive Market说。通过Thrive，你可以找到那些高质量的主食、零食、维生素、你熟悉和信任的品牌护肤品，而且你可以在家舒适地购物。克莱尔·怀特是我们福克斯的同事。她尝试过Thrive Market。以下是克莱尔的看法。

Even if you're not heading back to school, by the way, says Thrive Market. With Thrive, you can find those high quality pantry staples, those snacks, those vitamins, that skincare from those brands you know and trust, and you can shop it all from the comfort of your home. Claire White is our colleague here at Fox. She has tried Thrive Market. Here's what Claire thinks.

Thrive Market的产品种类非常丰富。不仅有零食和有趣的东西可以尝试。还有主食，比如我在任何杂货店购物时会买的东西，像杏仁黄油、橄榄油、香料。他们真的有你的厨房可能需要的一切。

Thrive Market's offerings are so expansive. There's not just snacks and fun things to try. There's also pantry staples, so things that I would get in any grocery run, like almond butter, olive oil, spices. They really have anything that your kitchen could need.

现在是不是尝试Thrive Market的最佳时机？精选商品25%折扣，新会员首单30%折扣外加免费礼物。你可以访问thrivemarket.com/explain开始省钱。促销活动8月31日结束。

Could now be the best time to try Thrive Market? 25% off select items, new members, 30% off a first order plus a free gift. You can go to thrivemarket.com/explain to start saving. That sale ends August 31.

无论你是初创公司创始人正在经历第一次审计，还是经验丰富的安全专业人士在扩展你的GRC项目，证明你对安全的承诺从未如此关键或复杂。这就是Vanta的用武之地。企业使用Vanta通过自动化合规性来建立信任，适用于热门框架如SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA、GDPR等。通过平台上的自动化和AI，你可以主动管理供应商风险，并完成安全问卷，速度提升高达五倍，节省宝贵时间。Vanta不仅节省时间，还能省钱。

Whether you're a startup founder navigating your first audit or a seasoned security professional scaling your GRC program, proving your commitment to security has never been more critical or more complex. That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses use Vanta to build trust by automating compliance for in demand frameworks like SOC two, ISO 27,001, HIPAA, GDPR, and more. And with automation and AI throughout the platform, you can proactively manage vendor risk and complete security questionnaires up to five times faster, getting valuable time back. Vanta not only saves you time, it can also save you money.

一份新的IDC白皮书发现，Vanta客户每年可获得535,000美元的收益，平台在短短三个月内就能收回成本。对任何企业来说，建立信任至关重要。Vanta可以帮助你的企业做到这一点。访问vanta.com/vox与Vanta专家会面，讨论你的业务需求。网址是vanta.com/vox。

A new IDC white paper found that Vanta customers achieve 535,000 per year in benefits, and the platform pays for itself in just three months. For any business, establishing trust is essential. Vanta can help your business with exactly that. Go to vanta.com/vox to meet with a Vanta expert about your business needs. That's vanta.com/vox.

说实话，你对你的工作满意吗？真的满意吗？不幸的是，绝大多数人都无法给出肯定的回答。太多人被困在已经不适合或最初就不想要的工作里。

Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place.

但我们依然坚持，用各种理由说服自己：万一换工作更糟呢？我已经在这里投入了多年时间。最常见的理由或许是：难道不是每个人工作都很痛苦吗？但留在原地的理由和不离开的借口是有区别的。是时候摆脱困境了。

But still, we stick it out and we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place. And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck.

是时候试试Strawberry了。我们为你匹配认证职业教练，帮助你从现状走向真正想要的生活。教练会帮你明确目标、制定计划、建立信心，并全程督促你。别把职业生涯交给运气。

It's time for Strawberry. Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance.

立即行动，让专业教练助你掌握未来。访问strawberry.me/unstuck获取专属优惠。网址是strawberry.me/unstuck。

Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.meunstuck to claim a special offer. That's strawberry.me/unstuck.

你好，地球。等等什么？如果这是地球，那我到底在哪儿？

Hello, Earth. Hello, what? If that's the Earth, where the heck am I?

我是亚当·贝克尔，记者、作家兼天体物理学家。完美组合。

My name is Adam Becker, and I am a journalist, author, and astrophysicist. Perfect.

这组合真特别。说说作家身份吧，你写过什么作品？是书吗？

What a combo. Thanks. Tell me about the author part. What what's what have you written? Books?

是的，我写过两本书。最新那本叫《更多一切永远》，讲的是科技亿万富翁们那些强加于人的未来构想为何行不通——那些想法糟糕透了。

Yeah. I've written two books, and, the more recent one is called More Everything Forever, and it is about the horrible ideas that tech billionaires have about the future that they're trying to shove down our throats and why they don't work.

火星计划是其中之一吗？

Is one of them Mars?

火星计划确实是其中之一。

One of them is Mars.

是啊。所以你认为火星是个糟糕的主意？

Yeah. So you think Mars is a horrible idea?

火星是个糟糕的主意。那是个可怕的地方。

Mars is a horrible idea. Mars is a terrible place.

但你是天体物理学家兼作家兼记者，这意味着你小时候也曾梦想过太空，而火星正是太空梦想的一部分，对吧？

But you're an astrophysicist slash Yes. Author slash journalist, which means at some point, you were a young child who dreamt of space, and part of the dream of space is Mars. Right?

当然。对。不。我是说，小时候我以为未来就在太空。你知道，我看了很多《星际迷航》。

Sure. Yeah. No. I mean, when I was a kid, I thought that the future was just in space. You know, I watched a lot of Star Trek.

对吧？因为我是个超级书呆子，当时还是个成长中的小书呆子，而小书呆子需要摄入足量的《星际迷航》才能长成强壮的大书呆子。小时候我把《星际迷航》当成某种未来纪录片来看——不是字面意义的纪录片，但我觉得这就是我们的目标，这就是我们想要的。我们想去太空。

Right? Because I'm a huge nerd and I was I was, like, a young growing nerd, and a young growing nerd needs to consume healthy amounts of Star Trek in order to grow up to be, like, a big strong nerd. And when I was a kid, I sort of thought of Star Trek as kinda like a documentary about the future, not like literally a documentary, but I thought, yeah, this is what we're shooting for. This is what we want. We wanna be in space.

美好的未来就在

That's where the good future

那里。

is.

后来我长大了。

And then I grew up.

值得注意的是，《星际迷航》里没多少亿万富翁，至少他们没提过这个。

Notably, there weren't a lot of billionaires on Star Trek or they didn't talk about it at least.

没错。事实上他们说的是那个世界没有货币。

No. In fact, they what they talked about was that there was no money.

你看，二十四世纪已经不存在金钱了。

You see, money doesn't exist in the twenty fourth century.

没有钱？你是说你们得不到报酬？

No money? You mean you don't get paid?

财富的积累不再是生活的驱动力。我们工作是为了提升自我和造福全人类。

The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

所以当你长大后，看到太空与金钱的交集，你会对太空或至少对火星的看法有所改变吗？

So you grow up and you see the intersection of space and money, and you kinda change your mind about how you feel about space or at least Mars?

是啊。我是说，听着，我热爱太空。对吧？你知道我攻读天体物理学博士是有原因的。我热爱太空。

Yeah. I mean, look, I love space. Right? You know, I did a PhD in astrophysics for a reason. I love space.

我认为太空研究以及用机器人和卫星探索太空非常了不起。但看到亿万富翁将太空变成超级富豪的另一种地位象征，这很恶心。马斯克谈论火星时，仿佛它是人类不可避免的未来，把火星计划说成某种拯救人类的慈善壮举，这完全是胡扯。

I think that space research and and, like, exploring space with robots and, you know, satellites is amazing. But, yeah, seeing billionaires turning space into another kind of status icon for the ultra wealthy, it's gross. Yeah. You know, Musk talks about Mars as if it's the inevitable future of humanity and and that, you know, going to Mars as a project to sort of save humanity like some giant philanthropic effort. And it's just nonsense.

他说我们必须去火星以防地球发生灾难，要在2050年前送一百万人上火星，即使地球停止发射火箭他们也能生存。

He says we gotta go to Mars in case there's a disaster here on Earth, and we gotta put a million people on Mars by 2050, and they gotta be able to survive even if the rockets from Earth stop coming.

人类命运的根本分歧在于，火星能否在地球供应因任何原因中断时继续发展。

The fundamental fork in the road for human destiny is where Mars can continue to grow even if the supply shifts from Earth and stuff coming for any reason.

我就想说，老兄，这不可能。火星环境恶劣，地球上发生的任何灾难都不会让它比火星更糟

I'm like, dude, that is not happening. Mars is awful, and there is nothing that could happen to Earth that would make it a worse

那么贝索斯关于太空殖民的论点呢？

place than Mars. Okay. What about what about the Bezos argument for space colonization?

我是说，你看。

I mean, look.

我讨厌站在为这些亿万富翁辩护的立场上，但我很好奇你对他们的论点怎么看。

I hate to be in the position of trying to, like, devils advocate for these billionaires, but I'm just curious what you make of their arguments.

好吧。我要说一位亿万富翁的好话。杰夫·贝索斯关于火星的看法是对的。杰夫·贝索斯哦。

Okay. I will say one nice thing about one billionaire. Right? Jeff Bezos got it right about Mars. Jeff Bezos Oh.

我记得他曾嘲笑马斯克鼓吹火星移民。他说火星糟透了。我说，没错。你知道吗？杰夫·贝索斯是对的。

I think at one point made fun of Musk for promoting Mars. He's like, Mars sucks. I'm like, yeah. You know what? Jeff Bezos is right.

火星确实糟透了。问题出在他后面说的话。因为贝索斯对太空也有具体构想。他说我们需要进入太空，住在成千上万个巨型空间站里，这样几个世纪后就能有万亿人类生活在太空。

Mars does suck. It's everything he said after that that was a problem. Right? Because Bezos also has a specific vision for space. He says, oh, well, we need to go out into space to live in hundreds of thousands or millions of enormous space stations so we can have a trillion humans living in space in a couple of centuries.

如果有万亿人类，我们随时都能拥有一千个莫扎特和一千个爱因斯坦。

If we had a trillion humans, we would have, at any given time, a thousand Mozarts and a thousand Einsteins.

在你告诉我们你对这个想法的看法之前...是的。我们常在爱看的科幻作品里看到这种构想。

And before you tell us what you think of that idea Yeah. We see a lot of this in the science fiction that we love to watch.

哦，没错。完全同意。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Totally.

从《星际迷航》到《星际穿越》再到《2001太空漫游》。

From Star Trek to Interstellar to 2,001 A Space Odyssey.

太空，最后的边疆。耐力号转速67、68转/分钟。嘿，准备好

Space, the final frontier. Endurance rotation is 67, 68 RPM. Hey, get ready

要让我们的跨距与逆向推进器匹配。这是不可能的。

to match our span with the retro thrusters. It's not possible.

不，这是必要的。

No. It's necessary.

打开舱门，哈尔。

Open the pod bay doors, Hal.

很抱歉，戴夫。恐怕我做不到。

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

是的。完全正确。但是，你知道，科幻小说是虚构的。对吧？

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But, you know, science fiction is fiction. Right?

它是我们讲述的一系列故事。我们讲述这些故事不是为了预测未来，而是为了探讨：如果以这个为背景，我们能探索哪些关于人性的问题？史上最伟大的科幻作家之一厄休拉·勒古恩说过，科幻小说不是未来的指南，科幻作家也不是未来的好向导，这不是这个题材的意义所在。但像任何优秀的千禧一代一样，有些推文在我脑海中挥之不去。其中一条是关于'痛苦联结'的推文，大意是：科幻作家在我的书中创造了'痛苦联结'作为警示寓言。

It is a set of stories that we tell. And we tell those stories not to predict the future, but to say, oh, what if we use this as a setting to explore some question about being a human? One of the great science fiction authors of all time, Ursula Le Guin, said that science fiction is not a guide to the future and that science fiction authors are not good guides to the future and that that's not what the subject is about. But I think like any good millennial, there are tweets that live rent free in my head. And one of them is the torment nexus tweet, where it says something like science fiction author in my book, I created the torment nexus as a cautionary tale.

科技亿万富翁。终于，我们根据经典科幻小说创造了'痛苦联结'，而书上明明写着不要创造'痛苦联结'。我同意科幻小说能给予我们某种向往，但它不是故事里那些字面意义上的科技。《星际迷航》让我喜爱的一点是，它展示了一种值得追求的未来图景——不在于技术，而在于人与人之间的关系和他们构建的世界。要知道，《星际迷航》在原初系列中就具有开创性，它展现了一群多元化的人进行着探索与自我实现的理想使命，作为朋友共同探索我们生活的世界。

Tech billionaire. At long last, we've created the torment nexus from classic science fiction novel, don't create the torment nexus. I agree that's that science fiction can give us something to aspire to, but it's not the literal technology in the science fiction stories. One of the things I love about Star Trek is it does show a kind of future to aspire to in terms of how the people relate to each other and the kind of world that they've built independent of the technology. You know, Star Trek was groundbreaking even in the original series in terms of, you know, showing a diverse group of people on an aspirational mission of exploration and self actualization and working together as friends to explore the world that we live in.

我明白，斯波克先生。造物的荣耀在于其无限的多样性。

I understand, mister Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.

以及我们的差异如何共同创造意义与美。这才是值得追求的未來。这不是杰夫·贝索斯的想法。贝索斯的构想是把一万亿人送入太空，他说这样做是因为如果我们留在地球上，几个世纪后就会耗尽资源和能源。这一点他是对的。

And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty. That is a future to aspire to. That is not what Jeff Bezos has in mind. Jeff Bezos' idea, is to put a trillion people in space, and he says he wants this because if we stay here on Earth in a few centuries, we're gonna run out of resources and run out of energy. And he's right about that.

确实如此。如果你假设能源使用保持当前持续增长的速度，那么几百年后，七百年或一千年后，你将耗尽太阳所有的能量输出。

That's true. If you if you just assume the current rate of constant growth in usage of energy, then a few centuries after that, seven hundred or a thousand years after that, you're using all of the energy output of the sun.

但你的意思是存在另一种选择，那就是不耗尽我们所有的资源？

But what you're saying is there's an alternate, and that is to not use all of our resources?

是的。或者至少更明智地保护它们，并以更可持续的方式利用这些资源。

Yeah. Or at least to, you know, safeguard them more wisely and use them, you know, in a more sustainable way.

听起来尽管你们在这些科技亿万富翁关于火星或太空殖民的议题上存在分歧，但我们都必须承认地球上的生命并非永恒。确实。我们的太阳——地球上生命的源泉——终将消亡。没错。

It sounds like for all you you disagree on with these tech billionaires when it comes to Mars or space colonization, like, we all have to agree that life on Earth is not infinite. Sure. Our sun, the source of life here on Earth Yep. Will eventually die. Yes.

我知道那还很遥远。确实如此。但我们已经登上了月球。是的。而登陆火星感觉像是朝着正确方向迈出的一步。

And I know it's very far away. It is. But we made it to the moon. Yep. And making it to Mars feels like it could be, you know, a step in the right direction.

当我在华盛顿特区的航空航天博物馆台阶上询问人们是否应该去火星或他们是否想去火星时，他们并没有提及埃隆·马斯克和杰夫·贝索斯。

And, you know, when I sat on the steps of the Air and Space Museum here in Washington DC and asked people whether we should go to Mars or whether they would wanna go to Mars. They don't talk about Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为我们需要见证它。我们需要拓展我们的认知边界和视野。

And I think we need to see it. I think we need to expand what we what we know, what we see.

他们更多是在谈论那个概念——是的。宇宙是无限的，而作为人类这个种族...

They kinda talk about that idea that Yeah. Space is infinite and as a race, a human race.

是啊，我觉得这对人类文明来说是个很酷的进步。

Yeah. I just think it's a cool, like, advancement for, like, human kind and everything.

这是我们应该追求的目标。

It's something we should pursue.

嗯。你必须推动科学的极限才能发现新事物。

Mhmm. You have to push the limit of science to discover new things.

你真的认为我们应该跳过垫脚石，仅仅因为这些家伙对我们最初为何要迈出那一步可能持有错误的观念吗？

Do you really think that we should skip the stepping stone just because these guys have some maybe wrong headed ideas about why we should be taking that step in the first place?

我是说，听着，我不认为火星糟糕是因为亿万富翁想去那里。我认为火星糟糕，而亿万富翁想去那里。而且

I mean, look, I don't think Mars sucks because the billionaires wanna go there. I think Mars sucks and the billionaires wanna go there. And

你甚至看不到去那里的理由，以便我们可以实验长期在另一个星球上生活会是什么样子。你甚至看不到那有什么用处，因为它可能会教会我们一些关于我们在百年或千年后发现的实际重大突破的东西，也就是在某个遥远的星系中有一个像家一样的星球。

you don't even see a reason to go there so that we can experiment with what it would be like to live on another planet long term. You don't even see a use for that because it might teach us something about the actual moonshot that we discover in a hundred or a thousand years, which is there's some planet in some distant galaxy that's just like home.

听着。如果我们发现另一颗恒星周围有一颗行星，即使在我们自己的星系中，更不用说遥远的星系了，它就像家一样，我们也不会去。这是不可能的。明白吗？光速限制是一个硬性障碍。

Look. If we find a planet around another star, even in our own galaxy, forget distant galaxy, that's just like home, we're not going. It's not happening. Okay? The speed of light limit is a hard stop.

我们不会去。也没有人会来拯救我们。而我发现这给了我们希望。我们必须自救。这是一个故事。

We are not going. And no one is coming to save us. And I find that hopeful. We have to save ourselves. There's a story.

明白吗？我不知道这是否真实。我认为这是杜撰的。据说在他生命的最后阶段，有人问伟大的建筑师和梦想家巴克敏斯特·富勒，他是否因为从未去过太空而感到悲伤？他的回答是，我们就在太空中。

Okay? And I don't know if this is true. I think it's apocryphal. That toward the end of his life, somebody asked the great architect and visionary, r Buckminster Fuller, if he was sad that he was going to die without ever having gone to space? And his answer was, we're in space.

我们生活在太空中。我们生活在太空中最特别、最神奇的地方。这是我们进化来生活的地方，这里的一切都如此适合我们。不仅仅是行星与太阳的距离。不仅仅是我们大气中的气体混合。

We live in space. And we we live in the most special and amazing place in space. This is a place that we evolved to live, and everything about it is so well suited for us. It's not just the distance of the planet from our sun. It's not just the mix of gases in our atmosphere.

而是这个生物圈的一切。我们可以直接从树上摘果子吃。我们生活在一个食物真的长在树上的地方。这太棒了。这是一个神奇的地方，我们应该继续了解我们所属的宇宙，同时在我们归属的地方为自己建造一个更好的家园。

It is everything about this biosphere. We can eat the fruit off the trees. We live in a place where food literally grows on trees. It's awesome. This is an amazing place, and we should continue to learn about the universe that we are a part of as we build a better home for ourselves here where we belong.

这是亚当·贝克尔的发言。他写过两本书。最新的一本是《更多的一切永远：人工智能霸主、太空帝国和硅谷控制人类命运的十字军》。今天的节目由阿比·沙伊·阿尔茨制作，是与Vox的Future Perfect团队合作完成的。乔伊·迈尔斯负责编辑。

That was Adam Becker. He's written two books. The most recent one is More Everything Forever, AI Overlords, Space Empires, and Silicon Valley's Crusade to Control the Fate of Humanity. Abhi Shai Artsy produced today's show, which was made in collaboration with Vox's Future Perfect team. Joey Myers edited.

劳拉·布拉德核对了事实，帕特里克·博伊德进行了混音。您可以通过访问vox.com/members收听今日的《解释桑德斯广告》节目，本周末还能在地球电台收听我们的周日节目《向我解释》，了解更多关于WellWell Wellness的内容。

Laura Bullard checked the facts. Patrick Boyd mixed. You can listen to today explain Sands ads by going to vox.com/members, and you can listen to our Sunday show, explain it To Me, tell you more about WellWell Wellness here on Earth this weekend.

人工智能的应用范围如此开放，普通人很难确切知道它能做什么。在我看来，大型科技公司在解释这一点上做得也不够好。因此本周，《边缘播客》特别节目中，边缘网的员工们将分享他们日常生活中如何使用AI——从搬家规划、哄孩子入睡，甚至我们还找到了一位真正在实践‘氛围编程’的人。哪些功能实用？

AI can be so open ended, it's hard to know for the average person what it's good for. And if you ask me, I don't think big tech is doing such a great job at explaining that either. So this week, on a special episode of the VergeCast, Verge staffers talk about how they've used AI in their everyday lives. That's everything from planning a move, helping their kids fall asleep, and we even found someone who's actually been vibe coding. What's helpful?

哪些功能鸡肋？我们将深入探讨这些话题及更多内容，尽在本周的《边缘播客》。

What doesn't work? We get into all of that and more, and that's this week on the Virchcast.

本节目由Salesforce赞助播出。

This episode is presented by Salesforce.

节目赞助来自Mercury。如果银行业务能做得更多呢？因为对您而言，这不仅仅是一张发票——它是您辛勤工作转化为收入的见证；也不仅是一笔电汇——

Support for show comes from Mercury. What if banking did more? Because to you, it's more than an invoice. It's your hard work becoming revenue. It's more than a wire.

它是为团队发放的薪资；不仅是一笔存款——它是成功融资的里程碑。事实上，银行业务可以做得更多。Mercury将所有资金管理方式整合到一个极致体验的单一产品中。

It's payroll for your team. It's more than a deposit. It's landing your fundraise. The truth is banking can do more. Mercury brings all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use.

访问mercury.com，加入超过20万企业家行列，用Mercury为业务创造更多可能。Mercury——超越想象的银行业务。

Visit mercury.com to join over 200,000 entrepreneurs who use Mercury to do more for their business. Mercury, banking that does more.