股息胜过日常工作：收益型ETF在Z世代中大火

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欢迎来到澳大利亚人节目。我是乔尔·韦伯。

Welcome to Australians. I'm Joel Weber.

我是埃里克·巴尔丘尼斯。

And I'm Eric Balchunis.

埃里克，我们彭博新闻的朋友最近发布了一篇重磅报道，完全吸引了我的注意。标题是'美国新潮流：股息胜过日常工作'。你知道，其中一部分听起来相当诱人，对吧？比如放弃日常工作，仅靠投资就能获得稳定的收入。

Eric, there was a big take by our friends at Bloomberg News recently that totally caught my attention. The headline, the new American hustle, dividends over day jobs. You know, part of that sounds pretty alluring. You know? Like, give up the day job, and you just have steady paycheck coming to you from an investment.

我们之前简单讨论过这个话题，但这些数字实际上相当惊人，这也是我们今天这期节目想探讨的内容之一。

We dabbled on this before, but the numbers are actually pretty insane, which is one of the things we wanna talk about on today's episode.

没错。ETF市场的这个领域正在变得非常庞大，而且它是一个光谱。我的意思是，说实话，老年人也喜欢股息，但这就像是打了激素的股息。实际上，这些产品的名字甚至让我想起那个虚构的佳得乐公司——《蠢蛋进化论》里的布隆多，'口渴毁灭者'。

Yeah. This part of the ETF market is getting huge, and it's a spectrum. I mean, let's face it. Older people love their dividends too, but this is like dividends on steroids. In fact, the names are even like they remind me of that fake Gatorade company, Idiocracy, Brondo, the thirst mutilator.

这就像是'收入毁灭者'。你知道吗？我觉得其中有一个产品叫'收入爆发'，'收入助推'，全都是大写字母。所以这确实有市场，但我觉得人们需要明白他们到底在买什么。

It's like the income mutilator. You know? It's very I think one of them is called income blast, income boost with all caps. So this is selling. There's a market for it, and I think people need to just understand what they're buying.

但我认为这又是一个光谱，是一个非常热门的领域，不过很有意思。关于重磅报道，我们得简单解释一下，因为彭博社有多少记者？大概2300人？

But I think it's again, it's a spectrum, and it's very hot area, but interesting. Just real quick on big take, you should let's explain this because the how many reporters work at Bloomberg? Like, 2,300?

更多。是的，加上分析师的话，大约3000人左右。

More. Yeah. 3,000. Something like that. With analysts.

是的。

Yeah.

而且每天只有一个记者能获得一个大选题。是的。这就是其中之一。所以一年有250个大选题，而这个故事拿到了其中一个。

And only one reporter get there's one big take a day. Yep. And this was that. So there's 250 big takes a year, and this story got one of those.

没错。完全正确。而且这是应该的，因为像Reddit这类平台上的小角落发生的事情简直无穷无尽地吸引人。我提到了数字，不仅是资金流入量——这个我们稍后会讨论——还有收益率百分比。有些情况下能达到8%，或者在超级加速时甚至达到三位数，超过100%。

Yeah. Totally. And as it should've because the little corners of, like, what's happening in Reddit and stuff are just endlessly fascinating. And, you know, I mentioned the number, Not only the inflows are which we'll talk about, but the percent yield. We're talking, like, 8% in some cases or when it's supercharged, like, triple digit, like, above a 100.

所以这会非常有趣。我们将邀请Vildana Hayrich加入，她是《万亿》节目的常客。她是彭博新闻社的跨资产记者，也是这篇报道的署名作者之一。Deniza Sikova是另一位记者。本期《万亿》节目主题：股息胜过日常工作？

So this is gonna be fascinating. We're gonna be joined by Vildana Hayrich, regular on Trillions. She's a cross asset reporter at Bloomberg News, and she's on the byline. Deniza Sikova is the other reporter. This time on Trillions, dividends over day jobs?

Hildana，欢迎回到《万亿》。

Hildana, welcome back to Trillions.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

好的。那么说说股息。我们之前写过，你也报道过这个话题。嗯。但这些数字真的让我大吃一惊。

Okay. So dividends. We've written about you've written about this before. Mhmm. But the numbers really blew my mind.

给我们讲讲这在ETF领域已经发展到多大规模了。

Walk us through how big of a landscape this has become in ETFs.

对。也许我们应该先分类一下。我觉得有两类，Eric刚才已经有所暗示。一类是传统的股息投资。所以有很多

Right. And maybe we should just categorize what it is. I feel like there's two categories, which Eric already sort of hinted at. One is the traditional dividend investing. So there's a bunch Or of Right.

埃克森美孚或

Exxon or

还有就是，你知道

And there's, you know

以派息闻名的公司。

companies that are famous for dividend payouts.

没错。而且还有持有高股息公司股票的ETF。这些就是传统的股息支付者。然后还有这个新类别，就像你说的，收益率超高，有时达到90%甚至更高。我们之前写过相关报道，但自那以后，这个领域只增不减。

Exactly. And and there are ETFs that hold shares of companies that are high dividend. So those are, like, your traditional dividend payers. And then there's this new category where you're getting, like you said, like, super high yield, sometimes 90% or more. And we have written about it before, but since then, it's only grown.

你会看到数十亿的资金涌入这些基金。整个类别的规模已经超过7000亿美元。但它们增长如此之快的部分原因是，有一大批金融网红在YouTube、Reddit等平台推广这些产品，几乎成了它们的代言人。

And you're just seeing billions and billions of dollars going into these funds. It's a category altogether that encompasses more than $700,000,000,000 But part of the reason that they are growing so much is that there's a whole cohort of finfluencers who post on YouTube and Reddit and other places who love these products and are almost like ambassadors for them.

今年到目前为止，每6美元中就有1美元流入了这个领域。Eric，这与ETF中其他热门资产类别相比如何？

One out of every $6 so far this year have gone into this space. Eric, how does that compare with other hot assets classes in ETFs?

他们完全超出了自身实力范围。所以当你说每6美元中有1美元时，粗略估算一下，你知道ETF总规模大约是8000亿美元，那么每6美元中的1美元就是约1200亿美元。这很可能占他们资产的很高比例。所以这是增长较快的领域之一。

They're punching way above their weight. So when you say one of every $6, that would be ballpark of you know, there's 800,000,000,000 into ETFs. So one of every six would a 120,000,000,000. That's probably a high percentage over their assets. So this is one of the faster growing areas.

我明白。我的意思是，我亲身经历过，这确实很令人兴奋，因为我在投资展会上做展位演讲时，就像个马戏团招揽员。这其实是很好的演讲练习，因为你必须吸引人们过来，就像'嘿，快过来看看'。

I get it. I mean, I I know firsthand this is really exciting stuff because when I was at the money show, I was doing a presentation in the booth area, is sort of like you're like a carnival barker. It's actually good practice for presenting because you, like, have to, like, reel people in. Like, hey. Step right up.

这完全是另一回事。总之，我在介绍各种'辣酱'（投资产品），讲到Yield Max时，就像是收益辣酱，当时有大约12个人在场。但当我开始展示这些收益率时，高达80%、90%、100%。我甚至不确定人们是否看清了，我觉得他们就像嗅到了信息素一样，然后我的人群翻了一倍。

It's it's a whole thing. Anyway, I'm going through flavors of hot sauce, and I get to the yield max, which is, like, income hot sauce, and I got, like, 12 people there. But when I start showing these yields, they're, like, eighty, ninety, a 100%. I I don't even know if people could see it. I think they just sensed it, like, pheromones, and that my crowd doubled.

当时我是说，我

And it was I mean, I'm

差点就要走过来了。你真的很吸引人。

about to walk over to you. You're, like, really enticing me.

那时我看到了未来。而且这些都是年长的人。所以我觉得每个人都喜欢收入和收益。心理上的感觉是你在收到支票，这感觉很好。但现在变得复杂了，因为在某些情况下，这是在市场表现之外的额外收益，比如你的标普指数收益。

Was then that I future. And these are older people. So I I think everybody loves income and yield. I think the psychological feeling is you're getting a paid like a check sent to you, and it feels good. It's like now it's complicated because in some cases, that's extra on top of what the market does, like your S and P.

你知道，收入就像是在你的回报之上的股息。但在某些情况下，这就像是你放弃所有回报来获得那个收益。所以这几乎就像是设计成通过收益或收入来支付自己，而不是在十年后通过总回报套现。所以我认为，对于那些超高收益的产品来说，这在某种程度上是心理因素。

It's a you know, income is like dividends on top of your return. But in some cases, it's like you're giving up all your return to give that yield. So it's almost like you're just designed to pay yourself in yield or income instead of just cashing out after ten years in total return. So it's psychological, I think, in a way when it comes to those really high yield ones.

好的。等一下。我们先暂停一下，分析一下这些ETF的操作手册——也就是那些金融网红圈正在使用的所谓‘套路’？那个操作手册具体是什么样的？

Okay. So wait. Let's just pause and break down what the playbook for these ETFs in the sort of the the Kool Aid that the the the fin influencer crowd is is using? What does that playbook look like?

是的。一般来说是这样的：你把钱投资到这些ETF中，可能是多种ETF，或者特别关注YieldMAX——这家发行商拥有最受欢迎或部分最受欢迎的产品。也许你把一大笔钱投入他们的几只ETF，然后就能获得那些分红。发行商们一直在提高分红频率，有些甚至能提供每周分红。但假设你是按月获得分红的。

Yeah. So so it generally looks something like this, where you're investing your money into these ETFs, whether it's a variety of them or specifically YieldMAX is one issuer that has the most popular products or some of the most popular products. Maybe you invest a bunch of your money into a couple of their ETFs, but then you're getting those payouts. The issuers are making them have been making them more frequent, so there are some where you can get weekly payouts. But let's say you're getting them monthly.

我们采访了一些人，他们通过这些分红每月能获得500美元到有人预计能获得9000美元不等，然后用这些钱支付所有账单。基本上，他们用这些钱支付汽油费、电费等。就像，所有开支都从这些账户出。哇，我们采访的一个人还买了辆新的二手车，就像我说的那样。

And so we spoke with a number of people who get anywhere from $500 a month in these payouts to somebody who's looking to get $9,000 a month and then using them to pay for all of their bills, basically. So they're paying for gas, electricity. Like, it's coming out of those accounts. Wow. One guy we spoke with got a new used car, as as I called it.

而且，比如汽车贷款也是靠这些——或者应该说通过这些分红支付。没错，正是如此。还有房贷。

And, like, the car payments are being made thanks to or via these, I should say, via these Dividend payouts. Payouts. Yeah. Exactly. Mortgages.

明白吗？所以他们某种程度上像是围绕这些建立了一种生活，他们的生活重心都围绕着这些分红。

You know? So they're sort of it's like a they've built a life around like, their life revolves.

围绕着这些分红。当你和他们交谈时，他们投入的是原本可能用于退休的钱，还是不管工资多少都往里投，只是为了放大收益？

Around these payouts. And and when you talk to them, were they taking, like, money that was would otherwise be, like, retirement, or are they taking, like, whatever their paychecks look like and shoveling into this just to supersize?

这是个很好的问题，因为那个人，他实际上告诉我们，他兑现了他妻子的退休账户。

This is a really good question because that guy, he actually he told us he cashed out his wife's retirement account.

她知道这件事吗？

Does she know that?

她确实知道。我问了他同样的问题。我说，别逼我给她打电话。她是否意识到自己拥有这些资产，因为他后来用那笔钱购买了一些YieldMAX ETF。不过他还有一份日常工作，同时还有一个常规的退休账户。

She does know that. I asked I asked him the same question. I said, don't make me call her. Does is she aware that she owns because then he used that money to to buy some of these some YieldMAX ETFs, actually. But he has a day job also, and he has a regular retirement account on the side.

所以这是个混合策略。我认为这取决于个人及其风险承受能力。我提到的9000美元这个数字，来自我们最近采访的一位跨州搬家后找工作困难的人。就像埃里克描述的那样，他被高收益率吸引，卖掉了家里的几辆车，将资金投入这些ETF。他们围绕这些ETF构建的生活方式确实令人惊叹——日常运转完全以此为中心。

So it's it's a mixture. I think it just it depends on the person and their risk tolerance. The $9,000 figure I mentioned is somebody we spoke with who recently moved across the country and was having a hard time finding a job and then sort of, like Eric described, became enticed by these high payouts and decided to, you know, he's I think he sold some of his cars in his house, and he put that money towards some of these ETFs. So it it it's it's really interesting. It's sort of astounding what they've been able to build and how they've built their lives, like their daily functioning around these ETFs.

这完全改变了现金流的运作方式，也颠覆了普通人对现金流的认知。埃里克，要实现80%、70%甚至100%的回报率，这些产品的实际运作机制究竟有何不同？

Total change in terms of, like, cash flow and how probably normies might think about cash flow. Eric, to get these returns, eight, seventy, 100% returns, what is different about how how these products are actually functioning?

简单来说（虽然存在梯度差异），它们通常在价外位置卖出看涨期权。假设特斯拉100美元，他们就在101或102美元处卖出期权。因为这个价位意味着只要特斯拉稍有上涨，买方就能行权获利，所以能收取高昂的权利金。

Most to put it the the it's a spectrum, but generally speaking, they're writing call options just outside of the money. So let's say Tesla's a $100. They're writing a call option at, like, a 101 or a $102. You pay a lot for that. So I'm getting a lot of money from you to buy that because that means if Tesla goes up even a little or a lot, you can call it and you instantly book a profit.

若特斯拉真的上涨，期权被行权后，你将错失股价上涨收益，但能保留之前收取的权利金。这本质上是将未来所有潜在收益折现为当期收入。相比之下，单纯持有特斯拉不做任何操作的人，获得的是总回报。

That means if Tesla does go up, the call option gets exercised, and you get none of Tesla's upside. But you get that premium from the person who you sold the option to. So you're essentially writing off your entire future of return to get income now. That's really what it is. Somebody who owns Tesla and didn't do any of this would just reimagine the total return they got.

他们会说：如果那算收入，我本来也能获得相同收益。所以这带有心理因素——有人就喜欢看到现金流入。两年前我们采访过一位用这类收入申请房贷的投资者，当时在20人访谈节目中讨论过这个案例。

Just say, well, if that was income, I would have gotten the same thing. So, again, this is somewhat psychological. Some people just like to see it as income. The guy we spoke to a couple, like, two years ago, maybe we had a one of these 20 on to talk about this. He said he used that income to get a mortgage.

就像，这是他收入的一部分，所以我理解。我觉得还有一点，这里面有一句话我觉得特别棒——我一直都有他们所谓的‘闪亮物体综合症’。所以闪亮物体、辣酱，这些都是ETF世界里非常可行的领域，至少他对自己很诚实。我得称赞你找到了这些人，因为很多时候这些文章都是象牙塔里的人写的，他们会说，看看这些堕落者、这些白痴。他们不知道我可是真正的华尔街人士。

Like, it was part of his income, so I get it. I think also, one of the lines in here that I thought was really great was I've always had what they call the shiny object syndrome. So shiny objects, hot sauce, it's a very viable area of the ETF world, and at least he's honest with himself. And I gotta give you credit for finding these people because a lot of times these articles are written from ivory tower folks, and they're like, look at all these degens, these idiots. They don't know I'm a real Wall Street guy.

我什么都懂。这些人是白痴。而且，你从来听不到真正交易这些产品的人的声音。但当你听到他们的声音时，你会觉得，好吧，这些人比你想的要懂行得多。

I know everything. These are idiots. And, like, you never get to hear from the actual people trading them. And you hear from them, you're like, okay. These guys, they know more about this than you think.

他们要么了解风险，要么就是明知风险却决定冒险。我真的很感谢你在文章中采访了他们。那么你是怎么让一个27岁的YouTube收入成瘾者愿意和你交谈的呢？

They or they know the risks, and they're deciding to take it anyway. I really appreciate you getting them in the article. So how did you get a 27 year old, like, YouTube income addict to talk to you?

本播客由Invesco QQQ赞助。二十五年前，Invesco QQQ重新思考了投资格局，通过一只ETF提供对纳斯达克100家最具创新性公司的投资机会。未来二十五年会有什么？会是飞行汽车、神经植入设备、电动飞机吗？没人能确定，但有一点是肯定的。

Support for this podcast comes from Invesco QQQ. Twenty five years ago, Invesco QQQ rethought the investing landscape by providing access to the Nasdaq's 100 most innovative companies all in one ETF. What's ahead for the next twenty five years? Could it be flying cars, neural implants, electric planes? No one knows for sure, but one thing's for certain.

您可以通过Invesco QQQ ETF获得参与这一进步的机会。让我们重新思考可能性。投资ETF存在风险，包括可能损失本金。ETF风险与股票类似。科技行业的投资比多元化投资面临更大风险和更高波动性。

You can gain access to that progress with Invesco QQQ ETF. Let's rethink possibility. There are risks when investing in ETFs, including possible loss of money. ETF risks are similar to those of stocks. Investments in the tech sector are subject to greater risk and more volatility than more diversified investments.

纳斯达克100指数包含纳斯达克交易所100家最大的非金融公司。您不能直接投资指数。投资前请考虑基金的投资目标、风险、费用和开支。请访问invesco.com获取包含这些信息的募股说明书。投资前请仔细阅读。

The Nasdaq 100 index comprises the 100 largest nonfinancial companies on the Nasdaq. You can't invest directly into an index. Before investing, consider the fund's investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Visit invesco.com for a prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully before investing.

Invesco Distributors Inc.

Invesco Distributors Inc.

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Okay. Canva can take your presentations to another level. It's super easy to use. But do you really know everything Canva can do? Let me walk you through some of the highlights.

以Canva视频为例。无论你是内容专家还是刚入门，都能立即制作出出众的视频。这里有数千个模板、超级简单的编辑器，以及AI驱动的工具，只需一个提示就能生成带声音的电影级质量视频。真的再简单不过了。然后是Canva文档。

Take Canva Video. Whether you're a content pro or just starting, you can make standout videos right away. There are thousands of templates, a super simple editor, and AI powered tools that let you generate cinematic quality videos with sound from just one prompt. It seriously couldn't be easier. Then there's Canva Docs.

创建、协作并分享真正能产生影响的视觉文档。报告、计划，无论你需要什么。借助Canva内置AI工具MagicWrite，你可以进行头脑风暴、起草内容，甚至用你自己的语气创作文案。还有Canva表格，就像是变得有趣的电子表格——虽然这可能有点夸大其词，毕竟电子表格本身，但它们更直观、更有洞察力，而且生成简单。所以无论是文档、表格还是惊艳的视频，Canva都能让你以思考的速度将宏大创意变为现实。

Create, collaborate, and share visual documents that actually make an impact. Reports, plans, whatever you need. And with MagicWrite, Canva's built in AI, you can brainstorm, draft, and even create copy in your own voice. And Canva Sheets, it's like spreadsheets if they were fun, which is maybe an overpromise because spreadsheets, but they're more visual and insightful, plus easy to generate. So whether it's a doc, a sheet, or a show stopping video, Canva lets you bring your big ideas to life as fast as you can think of them.

让想象力在canva.com上发挥作用。

Put imagination to work at canva.com.

那么，你听说过那个内置自动节省功能的处方计划的故事吗？它让任何规模的家庭都能确信药物费用不会成为他们的负担。前往cmk.co/stories了解CVS Caremark如何帮助会员仅凭会员身份就能节省开支。网址是cmk.co/stories。

So, have you heard the story about the prescription plan with savings automatically built in? It's where a family of any size can feel confident the cost of their medication won't hold them back. Go to cmk.co/stories to learn how CVS Caremark helps members save just by being members. That's cmk.co/stories.

所以YieldMAX，实际上，作为一些最受欢迎产品背后的发行商，正如我提到的，他们确实在纳斯达克举办了一场活动，邀请了一大批这些影响者。Denise和我参加了活动，那是一次收盘钟声敲响仪式。我们和许多热爱这些基金的人交流过。Eli，实际上，他并不投资YieldMAX ETF。他选择更传统的路线。

So YieldMAX, actually, the issuer behind some of the most popular products, as I mentioned, they actually had an event at Nasdaq where the where they invited a a a bunch of these influencers. And Denise and I attended it, and it was a closing bell ringing. And we talked to so many people who love these funds. Eli, actually, he does not invest in yield max ETFs. He takes a more traditional route.

我认为他把很多资金投在了大型嘉信理财股息ETF上，那是最成熟、最老派的股息ETF之一。但是，没错，覆盖范围很广，有些人确实喜欢超高收益的产品，比如90%以上或80%以上的收益率。我们在那次活动中遇到了很多这样的人。另外，我的意思是，他们也在线上活跃。所以是的。

I think he invests a lot of his money in the big Schwab dividend ETF, which is, like, the biggest one of the most established, like, old school dividend ETFs. But, yeah, it it ran the gamut, and and some people really like the super high yielding stuff, the 90 plus percent or 80 plus percent. But we met a lot of them at that event. And and then the other thing is, I mean, they're online. So Yeah.

你可以在YouTube上找到他们的视频。

You can find their YouTube videos.

顺便说一下，让我读一下。我接下来要介绍YieldMAX的产品线。首先，YieldMAX的规模达到了170亿美元。对于一个独立发行商来说，这非常庞大。他们在年初时只有10到20亿美元的规模。

By the way, let me just read off. I'm gonna go here's YieldMAX's product line. First of all, YieldMAX has 17,000,000,000. That's a lot for an indie issuer. They only had 1 or 2,000,000,000 to start the year.

这就是他们增长的速度。所以我现在按收益率排序：215%、119%、173%。我的意思是，这些数字太惊人了。比如MSTY（MicroStrategy相关产品），今年吸引了50亿美元资金，收益率达到166%。

And that's how fast they've grown. So they're here I'm gonna sort by yield. 215%, 119%, 173%. I mean, these are outrageous. I mean and a lot of these products like MSTY, which is the MicroStrategy, that's taken 5,000,000,000 this year, and it yields a 166.

但其年初至今的回报率只有13%。我猜这远远落后于MicroStrategy本身的涨幅。

But its year to date return is 13%. I imagine that's lagging MicroStrategy by a ton.

公平地说，发行方会告诉你，他们并不声称能帮你跑赢市场或与市场持平。他们会说，如果你想实现这个目标，就不应该购买YieldMAX产品或这类产品。是的，这些产品不是为了这个目的设计的。它们是为了那些派息而存在，有些人就是想要这些现金分红。

Well, to be fair to the issuers, what they'll tell you is they will they are not claiming that they're gonna help you beat the market or, you know, stay on par with the market. They're if they say to you, if you want to do that, don't buy YieldMAX products or don't buy products. Yeah. These are not meant for that. These are meant for those payouts, and some people just want the payouts.

那么请详细说明一下，如果你是...

So walk us through if you're But

剥离证券（strips）的东西，他们把债券的票息支付剥离出来。所以如果你只想要本金部分，就会增加你的利率久期。而如果你想要剥离证券，就只是获得现金流。有很多机构可能只想要标普500的股息而不在乎回报，有些是出于税务原因。

but by the way, can I just say something? So there's this thing called strips that were made up back in the day by Wall Street guys where they would strip out the coupon payment from the bond. And so if you wanted just the bond of the principal, it jacks up your interest rate duration. And if you want the strips, it just gives you the cash flow. And there's a lot of institutions that might just want the dividends from the S and P versus the returns, some for tax reasons.

换句话说，如果你还没意识到——完全可能有机构投资者会这么做，这一切听起来就像是‘哦，太棒了，这很严肃’。但就因为是27岁的人在ETF领域这么做，感觉有时候会被过度抨击。可华尔街早就这么干了，他们永远都在这么操作：从这个里面拿出来，放到那个里面去。

In other words, if you haven't there's a totally an institutional investor who might do this, and it all all it sounds so like, oh, that's great. That's serious. But just because a 27 year old does it and it's in the ETF world, feel like sometimes it gets overly slammed. But it's not Wall Street's been doing this forever. They take this out of this, put this in this.

没错。就像他们把各种东西混在一起炒，这就是他们干的事。

It's just Right. It's just it's like they cook all stuff up. That's what they do.

但区别在于让散户也能用自己的投资组合独立操作这个，同意。

But difference is to have retail being able to do this on their own with their own portfolios Agree.

这就是为什么我们为ETF设立了类似电影分级制度的体系。这些可能算是PG-13级吧，我猜。得看看我们的系统，或者甚至可能因为稍微复杂一点而评为R级。

Which is why we have the equivalent of a movie rating system for ETFs. These would probably be p g 13, I imagine. 'd have to look at our system or maybe even r based on the slight complication.

里面有NC-17评级吗？

N c 17 rating in there?

有的。那个是留给比如三倍杠杆这类产品的。

We do. The that's reserved for, like, triple leveraged

好的。

K.

那些是ETN并滚动期货的ETF。

ETFs that are are that are ETNs and roll futures.

你能像这样利用股息吗？当然。三倍那个175。好的。Vildonnett。

Could you leverage dividends like this? Sure. Three x that one seventy five. Okay. Vildonnett.

但如果我能再补充一点，就资金流和流入金额而言，因为Eric提到了YieldMAX现在的规模。在那次活动之后，我认为很多影响者回家制作了关于该活动的视频，YieldMAX获得了超过50,000,000,000美元。

But if I can add one more thing, just in terms of the flows and how much money is coming in, because Eric mentioned how much YieldMAX has now. After that event, I think what happened is a lot of the influencers went home and made videos about the event, and YieldMAX got over $5,000,000,000.

哇。

Wow.

所以那也是一个完全的影响者现象，顺便说一下。我刚刚在巴西，有人告诉我，那里的整个市场都是由影响者运营的。我想我们属于传统媒体，我这么称呼我们。也许我们稍微先进一点，但观看量和类似的东西，我看到一个YouTube频道。我心想，天啊。

So that that's also a whole influencer thing, by the way. And I was just in Brazil, and somebody was telling me there that, like, the whole market there is run by influencers. Like, I think we we're in the we're in the legacy media, I'd call us. Maybe we're a little more advanced, but the amount of, like, views and stuff going on, like, I see a YouTube channel. I'm like, oh my god.

那甚至超过了CNN某些节目的收视率。真的非常普遍。

That's that's more than, like, CNN gets for some of their shows. Like, it's really pervasive.

Bill Donut，我们提到了Schwab的和Misty，这是以策略为中心的。 crowd还喜欢哪些其他ETF？

Bill Donut, what other ETFs we've mentioned the Schwab one and and Misty, which is strategy centric. What other ETFs does the crowd adore?

你是想让我在这里谈谈JEPI吗？当然。你是这个意思吗？

You do do you want me to talk about JEPI here? Sure. Is that what you're trying to get at?

我们可以讨论JEPI。我知道还有几个其他的。

We we can do JEPI. I know there's a couple other ones.

你是在想

Were you thinking of

另一个？股息ETF的殿堂级产品有哪些？大家最喜欢的都是什么？

another one? What's the pantheon of dividend ETFs? And and what are what's everyone's favorites?

嗯，JEPI是摩根大通几年前推出的一个产品，在2022年市场下跌时，JEPI的表现实际上比市场更好。那年市场下跌了大约20%。它可能提供我们称之为更保守的派息，大约8%。但如果我们想在这个对话中给它做个定位，总体来看，它远远落后于市场。

Well, JEPI is a product from JPMorgan that launched a couple of years ago that when the market sold off in 2022, JEPI actually did better. It it's than the market. I the market lost, like, 20% that year. And it it it has maybe what we might call a more conservative payout of around 8%. But it is but if but if we wanna sort of contextualize it within this conversation, it also if you look overall, it's lagging the market by a lot.

所以如果你投资了市场，你的回报可能会看起来更好。但是，再次强调，管理JEPI的人会告诉你，它的目的不是要跑赢市场。

So if you had been invested in the market, you maybe, you know, your returns would be looking better. But, again, the people who are running JEPI, they'll tell you it's not meant to be beating the market.

我刚才对看涨期权行权价位置的分析，我认为JEPI他们写的看涨期权行权价远高于市价。所以在特斯拉那个例子里，股价要涨很多才会被行权。因此，期权行权价的深浅让你可以微调你是想要多一点收入，还是像打了兴奋剂一样追求上涨。这正是一个光谱，你可以查看——我实际上按收益率对所有ETF进行了排序，它确实从200%到0很好地级联下来。所以你完全可以找到适合你的收益率水平，以及你愿意放弃多少上涨空间。

That analysis I just did on where the call option is written, I think JEPI, they're they're writing that call option way more out of the money. So in that example of Tesla, it would have to go up a lot before the call got exercised. So it's where in the money you write the option, you're able to sort of fine tune whether you want income a little a little more or, like, steroids. And that that's really that's why it it is a spectrum, and you can look if I'm actually sorted all ETFs by yield, and it really it cascades down from 200% to zero pretty nicely. So you you can really just find, like, where your right yield is for how much upside you wanna give up.

但要知道，归根结底，无论是华尔街机构还是这些人，天下没有免费的午餐。你可能需要放弃一些东西，才能得到那些看起来很酷的东西。

But just know, at the end of the day, whether it's a Wall Street institution or these people, there is no free lunch. You're probably gonna give up something to get something that's really cool looking.

什么？简单来说，你还在放弃什么其他东西？

What? Just to break that down and be really simple about it, what are what else are you giving up?

你放弃了上涨空间加上ETF的成本。对吧？如果你自己做这件事，你就不需要支付管理费。但实际上，在这些加了杠杆的产品中，你放弃的是所有的上涨潜力。问题在于，一支股票的总回报是无限的。

You're giving up upside plus the cost of the ETF. Right? If you did this on your own, you wouldn't pay the expense ratio. But, really, it's the the in in these steroid ones, it's the all the upside. And the the problem with that is the total return of a stock, it's unlimited.

我的意思是，不是说它们会永远上涨，但它们可能会涨很多，而你已经放弃了所有这些。

I mean, not that they go up forever, but they could go up a lot, and you've just given up all of that.

为了获得派息。

For a payout.

为了获得派息。所以我认为在很多情况下，如果你想象一支股票的总回报，然后在心里说，好吧，如果我把它分成四次派息，那将是X。然后想象你拿到了钱，但实际上并没有。这是一回事。我的意思是，你可以这样看。

For a payout. So I think in many cases, people if you if if you just imagined the total return of a stock and then like in your mind, you said, okay, well, if I if I did get this into into like four payouts, it would be x. And then just imagine you got the money, but you didn't. That that's the same thing. I mean, you could just it's look.

市场中有回报。问题是你希望如何获得这些回报？你是想在结束时一次性全部拿到吗？大多数人喜欢这样，因为他们更愿意用工资来应付日常开销，然后想着，哦，等我退休时，还有这笔完整的回报在等着我。这通常是人们的做法。

There's there's return in the market. It's like how do you want that delivered to you? Do you wanna just get it all in one lump sum when you are done? Most people like that because they'd rather, you know, use their paycheck to like make their day to day stuff, and then, like, oh, I have this whole return waiting for me when I retire. That's generally what people do.

这是一种新的方式。我在你文章里找到的另一句很棒的话是，那个人说，我爷爷在工厂干了一辈子。我不想把那些资本锁起来直到65岁。所以这里有点《好家伙》里亨利·希尔的意味——如果你记得《好家伙》的话，他就像在说，看那些笨蛋朝九晚五地去上班。黑帮是更好、更轻松的谋生方式，那是他在电影开头做出的选择。

This is a new way. And this is another quote I found really good in your article, is the guy said, my granddad worked in a factory his whole life. I don't wanna lock away that capital until I'm 65. So there's a little Henry Hill Goodfellas situation going on here, which is if you remember any Goodfellas, he's like, look at all those suckers going to work at their nine to five job. The mob was a better a better, easier way to make a living, and that was the choice he made at the beginning of the movie.

这里似乎正在发生类似的事情。就像，这就是为什么我说，那个在早期被某种程度上抨击的爷爷家伙，我打赌他可能挺快乐的，而且他肯定没有任何...你知道，你怎么过你的一生？如果你一生都在寻找捷径，有时你会被烧伤、后悔或被困扰，这就是为什么我必须小心对待这些东西。那个在工厂工作、退休时获得一大笔钱的爷爷，再次说明，就是这样。我不会...我不会对那种生活太过评判。

That seems to be what's happening here. Like, that's why I say, like, this this granddad guy that gets kind of, like, slammed at the early, I bet he was probably pretty happy, and he certainly didn't have any you know, how do you live your life? Like, if you look live your life looking for shortcuts, sometimes you're gonna get burned or regret or haunted, and that's why I gotta be careful with this stuff. The granddad who worked in a factory and then got a big payday when he retired, again, that's it. I'm not I don't I wouldn't be too judgmental of that life.

是啊。埃里克需要一个，像，摇椅和一个门廊。那样他就可以，你知道，从那里进行他的嘉年华表演了。

Yeah. We need Eric needs a, like, a rocking chair and a porch. That'd be like and then he can, you know, do his carnival carnival routine from there.

你可以

You can

买Misty然后用收益来买你的

buy Misty and then use the payouts to get your

摇椅。没错。

rocking chair. Exactly.

但我认为这真的很重要，因为经济因素，你知道，后疫情世界，通货膨胀，这些人中有很多真的很年轻。不是说我们引用的那些人找工作困难，但总的来说，有很多年轻人在努力寻找入门级职位。我的意思是，我们都知道，你知道，发生了什么。我认为思考一些可能驱使人们走向这些的因素很重要。对。

But I think this is really important because the economic factors, you know, the post pandemic world, inflation, people having a really a a lot of a lot of these people are really young. Not to say that they're the ones we quoted are having a hard time finding jobs, but in general, there's a lot of young people struggling to find entry level positions. I mean, we all know, you know, what's what's going on. And I I think it's important to think about some of those factors that might drive Right. People towards these.

他们基本上就是在审视这个体系，然后觉得这个体系不适合我。我必须想办法让它为我所用。

Where they're basically just looking at the system and being like, this system's not working for me. I have to find a way to make it work.

或者你的雇主叫你一周五天回办公室上班，而我们采访过的一位受访者说，你知道，他们叫我回去，但我知道我可以在家完成工作。我想要更多灵活性。我想能够随时去看我的宝宝，比如就在办公室旁边。我想如果愿意的话，明天就能去阿拉斯加，然后还能回来继续做自由职业者，因为很多人把这看作是一种自由职业的状态。

Or your employer calling you back to the office five days a week when, you know, you because one of the people we did interview said, you know, they called me back, and I knew I could do it from home. I want more flexibility. I want to be able to go see my baby next, you know, next to my office. I want to be able to go to Alaska if I want to, you know, tomorrow, for example, and then still come back and be self employed because a lot of people are thinking of it as, you know, being self employed.

是的。关于年轻人觉得体系不适合他们这个问题，尤其是买房这件事，真的很快就能感受到。买房真是个大事，真的很难。很多人到了三十多岁甚至还在为此挣扎。

Yeah. So real quick on this issue of young people feeling like the system doesn't work for them, especially trying to get a house. That's a real biggie. It's really hard to get a house. People are in the thirties or even struggling.

这是我正在写的加密货币书中的一个重要主题，乔尔，它真的帮助我理解并接受了加密货币。它的吸引力是一样的，因为在这种情况下是通货膨胀，而你实际上无法赶上通胀。他们说通胀率是2%，但感觉远不止如此。以前通过朝九晚五的常规工作所能得到的东西，现在已经不一样了。所以我认为加密货币和比特币出于同样的原因吸引了那一代人。

This is a big theme in the crypto book I'm working on, Joel, which is it's really helped me come around and really understand crypto. It's the same appeal because in this case, it's inflation, and you can't really catch inflation. They say it's 2%, but it feels like more. And the the idea of what you used to be able to get for working a regular nine to five job, it's not the same. And so I think crypto and Bitcoin have have appealed to that generation for the same reason.

所以这里有很多因素在起作用。我认为可以画一个很好的维恩图，比如这件事的催化剂和加密货币的催化剂，那种感觉就像亨利·希尔说的，我宁愿过犯罪的生活。你可能会说，嗯，那可能不是个好主意。但然后还有整个……

So there's a lot going on here. I think there'd be a pretty good Venn diagram of, like, the catalyst for this and the catalyst for crypto, which is something that is that feeling there's the Henry Hill one, which is I just rather have a life of crime. That's you could probably be like, well, that's probably not a good idea. But then there's the whole there's

你大概能预料到。

a your heads up with probably.

大概吧。

Probably.

他是费城人。我的意思是，最终他做得还不错。他确实加入了证人保护计划。不过我觉得保利进了监狱。所以故事的寓意是做个底层的人。

He's from Philly. I mean, in the end, he did fine. He did go in the witness protection program. Paulie went to jail, though, I think. So moral of story is be a guy in the bottom.

不要当老大。总之你是

Don't be the main guy. Anyway You're

如果你在底层就死定了，老兄。我觉得我们可以把这个比较先放一边。好吧。

dead if you're at the bottom, man. I think we can leave the that that comparison aside. Okay.

但那种感觉无法获得与父母和祖父母相同的美国梦式待遇的合法性是真实存在的。我认为这是通胀这种隐性税的一部分，很难确切指出，但如果你是个年轻人，你能感受到它。

But the legitimacy of not feeling like you're able to get the same deal, American Dream style, that your parents and grandparents got, That's real. And I think that is part of this silent tax of inflation that it it's hard to put your finger on it, but if you're a young person, you feel it.

好的。皮尔达纳，非常感谢您参加《万亿》节目。

Alright. Pildana, thanks so much for joining us on Trillions.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

感谢收听《万亿》。下次节目之前，您可以在彭博终端、bloomberg.com、苹果播客、Spotify或任何您喜欢的收听平台找到我们。我们很乐意收到您的反馈，请在社交媒体上联系我们。我是乔尔·韦伯节目。

Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time, you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, bloomberg.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. Hit us up on social. I'm at Joel Weber show.

他在埃里克·巴尔奇纳斯那里。《Trillions》由马格努斯·亨里克森制作。塞奇·鲍曼是彭博播客的负责人。

He's at Eric Balchinas. Trillions is produced by Magnus Henriksen. Sage Baumann is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.

每家企业都有雄心壮志。PayPal Open 是一个旨在通过商业贷款助您实现增长目标的平台，让您能够扩张业务并触达全球数亿PayPal客户。您的客户可以通过他们想要的所有方式付款，包括PayPal、Venmo、先买后付以及所有主流信用卡，让您可以专注于扩大规模。当发展时机到来时，只有一个平台适用于所有企业：PayPal Open。

Every business has an ambition. PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, Pay Later, and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up. When it's time to get growing, there's one platform for all business. PayPal Open.

立即前往 paypalopen.com 实现增长。贷款需经批准且在可用地区提供。

Grow today at paypalopen.com. Loans subject to approval in available locations.

Hiscox 小企业保险深知没有哪家企业像您的企业一样独特。全美有超过60万家小企业，从会计师、建筑师到摄影师和瑜伽教练，都信赖Hiscox保险提供保障。通过 hiscox.com 快速便捷地获取在线报价，找到适合您小企业需求的灵活保障方案。网址是 hiscox.com。小企业，大不同。

Hiscock Small Business Insurance knows there is no business like your business. Across America, over 600,000 small businesses, from accountants and architects to photographers and yoga instructors, look to Hiscox Insurance for protection. Find flexible coverage that adapts to the needs of your small business with a fast, easy online quote at hiscox.com. That's hisc0x.com. There's no business like small business.

Hiscox 小企业保险。

Hiscox Small Business Insurance.

促销产品不仅仅是赠品，它们是战略性的品牌工具。这就是为什么众多企业选择 four Imprint。提供数千种可定制选项，包括高级服饰、饮品器具、科技产品、手提袋等，four Imprint 提供多样选择以适应您的目标和预算。许多商品无需设置费，助您进一步最大化价值。

Promotional products aren't just giveaways. They're strategic brand tools. That's why so many businesses turn to four Imprint. With thousands of customizable options from premium apparel, drinkware, tech, totes, and more, four Imprint offers the variety to fit your goals and budget. Many items come with no setup charge to help you maximize value even more.

凭借专家支持、快速周转和360度保证，您可以确信您的订单将准时无误完成。探索更多详情，请访问 forimprint.com。

With expert support, fast turnaround, and a 360 degree guarantee, you can be for Imprint certain your order will be done right on time. Explore more at forimprint.com.

为了印记。确定无疑。

For Imprint. For certain.