以开放创新思维拥抱变革——费列罗集团乔瓦尼·巴蒂斯蒂尼专访

欢迎收听《解锁创新》，这是1871年EX3实验室推出的播客节目。我们将与创新领袖们探讨在快速变化的时代中，他们如何保持领先优势，以及如何在组织内培育创新文化。我是主持人亚当·维斯涅夫斯基。今天的嘉宾是乔瓦尼·巴蒂斯蒂尼，他目前担任费列罗集团开放创新科学高级副总裁。

Welcome to Unlocking Innovation, a podcast from EX3 Labs in 1871. We'll be talking to leaders in innovation about what keeps them ahead of the curve in today's atmosphere of rapid change and how they cultivate a culture of innovation within their organizations. I'm your host, Adam Wisniewski. Today's guest is Giovanni Battistini. Giovanni is currently the senior vice president of open innovation science at Ferrero.

大家可能通过能多益、费列罗金莎和嘀嗒糖等标志性产品认识费列罗。今天我们将探讨该公司的创新战略、持续进化的秘诀，以及促成'榛果计算机'等具体项目的技术。感谢你今天做客节目，乔瓦尼。

You probably know Ferrero for their iconic products like Nutella, Ferrero Rocher, and Tic Tacs. Today we're going be talking about the company's innovation strategy, what keeps them constantly evolving, and what techniques have led to specific projects like Hazelnut Computer. Thanks for being here today, Giovanni.

我的荣幸，亚当。感谢邀请

My pleasure, Adam. Thank you for having

我对你的职业发展历程很感兴趣。能否请你简单介绍一下自己的背景，以及如何走到今天这个职位的？

So definitely interested about your career journey. Would you mind just taking a moment just to describe, your background and how you got to where your current role is today?

亚当，和许多创新从业者一样，我认为自己的职业道路有些非典型性，并非直线发展——毕竟你起步时是一个方向，而后不断演变，这本身就是创新游戏的一部分。我的职业生涯始于太阳能系统设计，随后在技术领域为大型企业从事创业工作，尤其专注于企业自动化前沿。ABB是我供职的上一家公司。90年代末，我萌发了创业冲动，决定投身初创企业世界，以联合创始人、管理团队核心成员等身份参与了许多科技领域的创业活动，也为风投提供咨询，管理过企业投资基金，为亚利桑那大学孵化过基于AI的知识管理衍生公司。后来我以'内部创业'的形式回归企业界——全球香精香料行业前三的芬美意公司大胆聘用我这样的背景人士，通过合作伙伴关系构建创新生态来开展新业务。

Well, Adam, probably as many other innovation professionals, I consider my career a little bit atypical and not necessarily follow a straight line because you start one way and then you evolve and that's part of the innovation game I guess. So I started my career designing solar systems and I've done entrepreneurial work for large corporations in the technology space especially in the enterprise automation front. ABB was the last company I worked for. And when at the end of the 90s I got the entrepreneurial bug and I decided to parachute myself into start up world and I have done a lot of interesting entrepreneurial activities mostly in the tech space, as a co founder, as a main part of a management team or startups consulting for VCs, investing for a corporate investment fund, a corporate venture fund, managing creator for University of Arizona, spun off company for on know AI based, AI powered knowledge management and I kind of rejoined the corporate world where Fiermanich which is a global leader in fragrances and flavors one of the top three players in the world was it might be crazy enough to hire somebody with my profile profile to actually do an internal startup which is really starting a new business focus on kind of open innovation with basically using and leveraging and augmenting innovation coming from partnerships to build a business around case modulation.

这个项目在五年间取得了巨大成功，实现了风味事业部从零到显著增长的突破。五年后，我不仅负责管理这个新建的业务单元，还统筹全球风味创新发现工作，在世界各地寻找新机遇，开拓公司可涉足的相邻领域。后来我被费列罗吸引，开始了这段既延续过往又有所不同的新旅程——这是我首次为快消品企业工作，费列罗交给我的使命是运用开放创新理念，聚焦科技领域来影响内部新产品研发计划。我的核心工作是组建全球团队，搜寻可能对费列罗产生颠覆性影响的科技创新，并将其整合到企业体系中。

It was extremely successful in five years we went to zero to a significant amount of the growth of the flavor division. And at the end of the five years I was actually managing there both not all the business units were running this they had built but also managing global discovery for flavor innovation and so looking for new opportunities and starting new opportunities around the world that could be adjacent spaces where the company could start new businesses. And then I got intrigued by Ferrero and I started this new position, this new venture and which is again a little bit different from what I've done in the past. This is first of all the first time I worked for a CPG company and the concept that Ferrero asked me to evolve on is the concept of using open innovation, focus on science and technology to basically influence and the internal development and innovation plans for for Ferrero for new products. So my job is really to look in look for manage it I built a team, a global team that looks for innovation around the world in science and technology that can be potentially disruptive and impactful for Ferrero and integrate it into Ferrero and get it adopted.

这更像是技术推动型模式，与费列罗多年来擅长的'产品导向科学'形成互补——他们习惯根据产品构想寻找所需科技，而我采用的是'科技导向产品'的逆向思维：先探究科技潜力，再评估其影响力。我的团队不仅进行技术侦查，还与初创企业、高校乃至传统供应商合作构建试点项目，通过概念验证来催生新型影响力。

So it's more of a kind of a technology push that combines well with what Ferrero has done extremely well for many years which really a product to science. So from an idea of a product go out and look for the science that's necessary. I'm kind of gramming in the other way around with a science to product approach so you know what can I do with the science and how that can be impactful and so what my team does is build not only exploring scouts but builds pilots, proof of concept works well a lot with external innovators in the startup world or in the university world and in conventional suppliers even and to generate this type of new impact?

太棒了。感谢你分享这些背景信息，我觉得非常有见地。我很好奇是什么吸引你进入快速消费品和糖果领域的？

Fantastic. And thank you for sharing that background. I think that's extremely insightful. I'm curious what drew you to the CPG and confection space?

首先，正如我之前所说，这是我第一次真正在快速消费品公司工作，显然我对获得这种经验非常感兴趣。其次，我认为费列罗品牌的实力、独特文化及其价值观与我想要构建的方向高度契合。在快消品公司工作并推动创新时，你有机会产生无可比拟的影响力，这是其他工作难以企及的。这就是吸引我的原因。

Well, I think first of all, as I said before, this is my first time I've been, this is the first time I really worked on a CPG company. So clearly I was very intrigued and interested in getting this experience. Second, I think the power of Ferrero brands and the kind of unique culture and the values that Ferrero has were very much aligned with what I wanted to build. I think there is a when you work for a CPG company and innovate or help them innovate is you have an incredible opportunity to generate impact that is you know that probably doesn't have comparables in other jobs. So that's kind of what drew me.

我认为，费列罗关于可持续发展的坚定价值观，以及那些伴随我成长的品牌，基本概括了这一切。

I think that the know, if you're nineties with the strong values that Ferrero has about, sustainability and, with the brands that I grew up with, as a kid, I think that that sums it up.

听众们肯定特别想了解与你角色相关的一个问题：你如何在费列罗培育这种创新文化？能否分享一些具体策略或方法，帮助听众理解哪些对你有效？

So one of the things that I'm sure that listeners are interested in knowing about specifically as it relates to your role is how you cultivate that culture of innovation at Ferrero. Are there specific strategies or tactics that you can kind of share to help the listeners understand what has worked for you?

当然可以。首先在这类内部创业或变革管理项目中，获得高层的全力支持至关重要——我很幸运费列罗提供了这种支持。如果你想在这类职位上产生影响，这绝对是首要条件。费列罗本身就有浓厚的创新文化，专注于通过成为品类领导者来创新。他们有着成为品类领导者的辉煌历史，这绝非偶然。

Well, yeah, absolutely. Actually, there are first of all it's very important in this type of ventures, internal venture kind of our change management venture as well that is very important to have a full support from the top which is something that fortunately I have from Ferrero. So let's absolutely number one requirement if you really want to be impact in this type of positions. Don't have Ferrero has its own obviously culture, very has a strong innovation culture and is a culture that is focused on innovation innovating through becoming a category leader. Ferrero had a strong history of becoming a category leader and there is a good reason why they were able to do that.

他们确实拥有强大的创新文化。因此担任类似我的角色时，你必须思考如何最好地融入这种文化。你不能对抗文化，而要在文化框架内工作，甚至需要在文化边缘试探才能推动边界——这正是我们的职责。就我个人而言，虽然从其他经验中已有所认知，但进入新公司后还是发现：像费列罗这样的大企业（虽然所有公司最初都是初创企业）经过几十年后，往往很难记得自己也曾是初创公司——这很正常。

You know, with that, they do have their own strong culture of innovation. So anytime you work in a role like mine, you obviously have to think, you know how to best fit in that culture. You cannot work against the culture, you need to work within the culture and you need to work at the edges of the culture if you want to push the boundaries, right, because that's kind of our role. So that is very important. Now in my role you know what I discovered obviously is that what probably I knew already from other experience but it's always different when you get into a new company is that it's not easy for large corporations like Ferrero who know, well born as every company is a startup after many decades forget that they were startup themselves, obviously that's normal.

经常要充当大企业与对接团队之间的文化思维缓冲带非常困难。你需要双向协调：大企业对团队有时会有不切实际的期待。因此促进双方沟通互动至关重要，这也是工作的一部分。比如在FLAO（注：疑似机构缩写）时我学到：我们需要在上百个机会中寻找平衡——毕竟这就是我们的工作。

And very difficult to very often get be the buffer, the cultural mindset buffer between a large corporation and the staff that we interact with. And you need to work on both sides, right? There's an expectation sometimes from the large corporation and staff that said that cannot be met necessarily. So that it's very important to work on, you know, the you know and making sure you facilitate that communication and interaction which is part of the job and you know and that means that you need to find the balance. One of the things that for example I learned in FLAO is that you know we look at hundreds of opportunities out there and because that's our job, right?

我认为，如果你开始向州内其他部门展示数百个机会的可见性和透明度，内部利益相关者的创新，你知道，这实在是太多了，对吧？你需要在确信已有足够的概念验证试点时引入他们，才能真正引导他们完成采用过程。这是我学到的重要一课，通过不断调整才明白这一点，因为每家公司都不同，显然需要实际调整。但我们投入了大量时间、精力和资金来构建正确的概念验证试点，这不仅向我们证明技术可行，让我们理解其运作方式，同时也帮助我们展示技术如何应用，因为我们是在推动技术发展，对吧？这非常关键，因为它能让我们跨越早期采用者（基本就是我们公司内部）与费列罗内部主流创新之间的鸿沟。所以核心始终是跨越这条路径，对吧？

And I think if you start providing visibility and transparency over hundreds of opportunity to the rest of the state, the internal stakeholder innovation, you know, it's way too much, right? You want to bring them in at the time where you feel you have enough of a proof of concept of a pilot that you can really guide them through the adoption. That's a very important thing that I learned and I learned that by adjusting in that because every company is different obviously you need to actually adjust. But that's very so we invest a lot of time and effort and money in building the right proof of concept pilots that only proves to us that the technology can work lets us understand how it works but also helps us you know show how the technology can be used because we are a technology push game right and so it's very important because it allows us to cross the chasm between the old adopters which are which is us basically inside the company and the mainstream innovation within Ferrero. So it's always about crossing the path, right?

简单回顾一下杰弗里·摩尔的观点。

Just to go back to Jeffrey Moore.

我非常赞同。乔瓦尼，你提到的几点对创新尤为切中要害，尤其是当大企业希望像初创公司那样行动和运营时。关于试点或概念验证的理念，能否详细说明你从时间角度如何看待试点过程？如何利用概念验证进行实验和迭代以实现最终目标？

I love that. And Giovanni, you've mentioned a couple of things that I think are so spot on for innovation, especially when large corporations are looking to act and operate much more like a startup. The concept of a pilot or a proof of concept, can you kind of double click into the process of how you view pilots from a timing perspective? How you leverage proof of concepts to experiment and iterate in terms of getting to that end result?

是的，如果可以的话，我可以分享我们如何筛选这些概念验证项目及投资逻辑。正如Bionic Solution所说，创新需要像企业家一样投资，我们坚信组合投资理念。我们建立了一套完善的流程，让全球团队首先能用共同语言和方式处理这类选择。我们从筹备阶段开始，审视机会领域——这是我们在创新趋势、生态系统趋势与费列罗业务优先级三者的交汇处定义的'狩猎场'。随后我们会筛选数百个机会，用内部工具对约30%进行映射评估，该工具从潜在影响与可行性（或技术成熟度）维度进行高层级衡量，计算所谓的'未来回报'，以此优先处理高风险高回报或确保影响与风险匹配的项目。

Yeah, if you can, I can tell you a little bit about how we actually even get to the selection of those proof of concepts and what you invest because always, you know, when we do innovation, you do need to like Bionic Solution would say invest like an entrepreneur and the absolutely subscriber of that is really think about the portfolio investment and so we manage have pretty good process in place that allows us first of all as a global team to hear a common language and a common way of approaching this type of choices? So we start from a preparation where we look at opportunity areas which is the hunting ground where we actually look for with the intersection between innovation trends, ecosystem trends, look at business priorities for Ferrero define around the intersection of the three sets what we call opportunity area. Then we start scouting this in the opportunity we look at as I said hundreds of opportunities. We map about 30% of them against a tool that we built internally that measure basically in a very high level potential impact versus feasibility or versus maturity if you want of the technology. Calculate what we call the return of the future that allows us to prioritize and basically measures allows us to make fundamentally make choices that favor if we have to take higher risk projects or we want to make sure the impact is commensurate to that.

高风险高回报项目可以接受，低风险高回报当然更理想。但关键要避免高风险低回报项目——通过正确的衡量指标，我们相信能构建优质组合投资。虽然会经历多次失败，但整体上胜率会高于败率，获得良好的创新回报。基于此，我们筛选出约5%的机会进入'评估阶段'，此时可能已进行早期概念验证和原型测试。我们倾向于技术验证越早越好，但加大投入的阶段会严格控制概念验证周期在3-6个月内，越短越好。

The higher return, higher risk type of projects are okay, low risk, higher return are okay as well, obviously even better. But then we play the game, we want to make sure that you don't take any those high risk, low return type of projects because that's why if you had the right metrics that allows you to measure that we believe that you're going to have a good managed portfolio and of course you're going to fail several times that you're going to have overall more wins than losses and you're going to have good innovation return. Out of based on this we select to say 5% of those opportunities we advance them to what we call the evaluation stage and this is where we are really maybe we've done already some interesting early stage proof of concept and prototypes we really like to test the technology as early as we can but when we are really start doing spending a little bit more money is where we in this phase where we tend to look at we don't we would like to have proof of concept that are no longer than three to six months shorter if possible.

我们注重迭代，优先攻克最薄弱环节：这项技术中最关键的要素是什么？如果它在价值主张或技术层面失败，我们就果断放弃机会——这并非浪费时间。随着对技术理解的深入，经过几次迭代后，我们会开始构建面向内部客户需求的概念验证。

And we like to iterate. We like to focus on the weakest link first. So what the absolute most critical item in this technology? We want to make sure that if it fails whether it's value proposition wise or technology wise then we know we have to kill the opportunity, that's not a waste of time, right. So it's very important for us and then as you evolve the understanding of the technology and maybe you need to do a couple of iterations you actually also start building what is a proof of concept or oriented to what our customers, our internal customers will want.

因此要聚焦技术应用方式。比如新成分研发时，可以考虑制作巧克力棒或涂抹酱来展示其特性——这是典型做法。我们有时与内部实验室合作，有时借助外部实验室。若属于自主探索范畴，我更倾向利用费列罗内部卓越的专家资源，这不仅能充分发挥我们的专业优势（前提是不浪费他们的时间），还能增强内部协同效应，获得更优质的反馈。

So really focus on also how to use this technology. So if it's a new ingredient and start thinking about maybe put together a chocolate bar or a spread that shows or maybe something that shows the power of this new ingredient, right. That's typical example. We work sometimes with internal labs or sometimes with external labs to to do that and you know if it's something we want to learn ourselves I'd rather use internal labs because we have incredible competence inside Ferrero. So I want to leverage our expertise and if I don't waste their time obviously it's much better if I do that and that creates a more internal traction as well and I can get much better feedback on that.

但如果出于某些原因我必须使用外部实验室——要么是因为技术太早期，我确实想确保内部任何时候都不会滥用竞争——那也没问题，我们有时确实会这样做。但这某种程度上只是个说法。最终我们基本上会创建所谓的杠杆提案，它既是最终概念验证的结合体（不仅证明技术可行及其应用方式），同时也结合了商业案例。这是个能在宏观层面预示新型未来回报的指标——具体到这里就是经过技术和市场利率折现的内部收益率，这是我们设计的复杂公式，能给出相同的概念。要知道，即使高风险项目，其潜在内部收益率也可能非常高。

But if I have to use some external labs for certain reasons because either the technology is too early and I really want to make sure I don't abuse competition at any time internally that that's fine too and that's what we sometimes do. But that's kind of a word. And then in the end we basically end up creating what we call the leverage proposal which is combination of this final proof of concept that shows not only that technology works if it works and how to use it but also and combined with a business case, right. Something that at very high level can tell us a new type of return on future but can tell us basically in this case is IRR discounted by technical and market rates is a complicated formula we created that gives us same concept, right? Know, even if it's this is high risk, you know IRR potential is very high.

所以我们应该尝试，因为可能会失败，但你知道，如果成功回报会更高。这就是我们的推理逻辑和流程运作方式。希望我解答了你的问题。

So we should go for it because we might fail but you know, we don't fail higher returns are possible. So that's kind of how we are reasoning and how the process works. I hope I answered your question.

完全理解。我想深入探讨你提到的几个方面。你提到每年会涌入100个创意，经过筛选后只有约5%能入选，但对普通企业甚至大公司来说，100个创意的数量可能令人应接不暇。我很欣赏你们能产生这么多创意。你提到了外部和内部实验室。

Absolutely. And I want to deep dive into a couple areas that you mentioned. The sheer volume of the number of ideas that come in, you mentioned 100 and obviously it gets filtered down to about 5% of those opportunities that get selected, but a 100 ideas for the average company, even a large sized company, could potentially seem overwhelming. I love the fact that you all produce that many ideas. You mentioned external and internal labs.

听起来从创意来源角度看，这是内外结合的——部分创意在内部开发，同时也可能依赖合作伙伴获取另一些创意。这样理解准确吗？

So it sounds like it's a combination of that from an idea sourcing perspective that some of those are getting developed internally, but you're also potentially relying on some partnerships to source some of those ideas. Is that accurate?

是的，当我们谈论机会时实际指的是外部资源。之所以称为'机会'而非'项目'，首先是因为存在滥用'项目'这个词的倾向，其次这些机会往往与特定外部创新者（比如初创公司）相关联。但我们不断发现，真正有价值的是我们对某项初创技术的定义方式。

Yeah, when we talk about opportunities we're really talking about external. We call them opportunities because they're not projects, right? These are opportunities. So first of all, and there's a tendency to abuse sometimes the word projects is there. Second, the opportunity itself very often yes is tied up to a specific maybe startup external innovator outside but what happens that we find out constantly that what happens is that sometimes is a definition of that startup technology that we are interested in.

重点不在于初创公司本身，而在于它们在特定领域能创造价值的应用。这就是我们称之为机会的原因。我们最擅长的——也是为流程增值的关键——在于将自身知识与多个机会相结合，有时甚至将三个机会融合成一个比单独存在强大得多的新机会。这方面我们已有几个成功案例，虽然并非必然如此。

So it's not just what the startup is as they don't procure but it's what the startup does in a specific area that apply to a certain area can actually deliver value. That's why we call it opportunity. What we like best and what we I think is our opportunity to add value to the process is where we actually combine our own knowledge with multiple opportunities and maybe sometimes connected to us. And from three opportunities we actually combine them into one that is much more powerful than any separate ones. Any anyone taken separately and that is where we have a few examples of those that hopefully will be successful in the work and that's where I think you get something the best but not necessarily.

有时我们只与外部创新者或初创公司合作，有时则与拥有优秀创意的大学研究者合作——这些通常周期更长。之所以叫'机会'是因为它们遍布我们版图的各个角落。有些起初看似低影响，但深入了解后可能价值巨大。结合我们计算的指标，最终能实现优先级排序。有些机会我们会直接判定不符合战略重点，或时机未成熟就直接放弃。

Mean sometimes we've been just working with external innovator, a startup and sometimes we work with a university and a researcher who has some great ideas that we think we want to fund and work with and these are more sometimes longer term. So we call them opportunities because they move all over the place and all over our map. I told you we met them and sometimes you think that there's something is low impact and maybe is a higher impact the more you understand or to know actually to actually spend time on it. So that combined with the metric that we calculate allows us to actually prioritize in the end, right. It's like okay I know I get it we have some of the opportunities we just say hey these don't matter they're not comply with our priorities, don't it doesn't matter, it doesn't we shouldn't care about it or it's too early or whatever.

其他那些你觉得有趣的项目，你会投入更多时间，开始整合思考，然后如果未来的回报是正确的，我们感觉接近那个临界点时，就会真正集中精力在那5%的核心上。别妄想能兼顾更多。虽然外界有很多优秀资源，但必须精挑细选，这就需要明确的筛选标准。我们花了大量时间定义这些标准、路线图和优先级，明确我们的关注点。同时也要保持开放心态，不能只盯着已知领域，要对新发现保持敏感——比如当有人说'这个挺有意思'的时候。

Other ones you say this is interesting and you start spending more time on it and you start combining and think and then what you know if the return of the future is right and we feel that we're getting to that point that's when we really start really focusing on the that's where that 5%. Don't think you can manage more than that. I think there is a lot of great stuff out there, but you need to be selective and you need to have criteria in order to be selective. And we focus we spend a lot of time defining those criteria, our roadmaps, what are the priorities, what do we care about. At the same time you want to have a little bit of open mind so that you are not only looking for what you know, but you're open to, you know, yeah, no, no, You said something, oh, this is interesting.

之前没考虑过这点。或许我们应该像你建议的那样做些调整。这就是我们的运作方式，也是我们正在实践的策略。

Didn't think about it. Maybe we should change something like you. So that's kind of our game. That's what we're trying to play.

太棒了。我们在《解锁创新》节目邀请过很多创新负责人，但你是首位头衔里直接带有'开放式创新'的嘉宾。能否谈谈你对开放式创新的理解？这个概念最吸引你的地方是什么？

Fantastic. We've had a lot of innovation leads as guests on unlocking innovation. You're the first that actually has open innovation actually within your title. Can you talk a little bit about open innovation and as a concept and what it is that you like about it?

当然。现在有各种开放式创新模式，每个人对其理解都不同。实际上开放式创新包含很多层面，每个企业都可以建立自己的模式。对费列罗而言，正如我之前描述的，我们关注的是科技发展趋势，观察相邻领域、同行业甚至遥远领域里众多创新者的动向——这些都可能对我们产生重大影响。这就是费列罗的模式核心：专注于这类开放式创新，本质上就是对外部创新的整合。

Well, yeah, absolutely. There is a lot of innovation, open innovation models out there. So everybody has their own idea of open innovation. Reality of open innovation is a lot of things and anybody can have its own model and I think for Ferrero open innovation is what I described before is they are interesting in understanding where science and technology is going in what there are so many innovators out there in adjacent spaces, in same spaces and industries that or spaces that are far away from us they might actually have a strong impact right on what we do. And so you know that's what the model for Ferrero is about really to focus on that type of open innovation and open innovation means basic external innovation.

其实我个人不太喜欢'创新'这个术语，现在这个词被过度讨论了。相比之下，我更倾向于用'增长'来表述。

Mean as I actually don't, not particularly fond of the term innovation, myself, too much is that there's too much talk about innovation these days, it's probably better to talk about growth.

确实。不过

Absolutely. But

因为创新的本质就在于此——它不是发明，而是让发明产生影响力并驱动增长。现实情况是，世界正以惊人速度向多维度变革，即便你是创新领域的领军企业，拥有多年成功经验，如今也不可能单打独斗。稍不留神就可能错过机遇，无法预见哪些因素会颠覆你。封闭模式已经行不通了，从战略角度必须采用开放式创新。有些企业选择不同路径，比如设立企业风投基金来投资外部创新项目。

is, because that's what innovation is about right it's not invention it's really about innovation that you know is invention will become very impactful and generate some sort of growth and so I mean the reality is you know the world is changing so fast out there in so many different directions and there are so many brilliant people out there that even if you're a leader in innovation and you've been successfully doing that for many many years, know it's today it's impossible just to do it by yourself you know you might actually miss the train a few times, you might not see what can keep you and disrupt you. It's just moving too fast to do it alone. I mean the closed model is no longer possible and you do need to have an open innovation strategy from that perspective. Some companies like to do it in a different way. They had their own bank corporate venture fund for example and they are investing in external innovation.

一些公司选择进行一对一的开放式创新模式，他们开展研发合作这很棒，虽然我们当时并未称之为开放式创新，但实质就是整合各方能力，对吧？此外还有众包等其他优秀范例，以及更多形式存在。

Some companies decide to do one to one type of open innovation and they do R and D collaboration which is great, modest and we didn't call it open innovation but it was that was what it was about, you join competencies, right? And then, and then there are other crowdsourcing, another good example, and there's others out there.

太好了。我们在介绍中提到了'榛果计算机'，对于不熟悉该项目的听众，您能描述一下吗？

Perfect. So we mentioned the Hazelnut computer during the intro and for the listeners who aren't familiar with that project, can you describe it?

当然可以。我们称之为榛果计算机，字面意思就是围绕榛果树构建的计算机系统。我们是通过MIT媒体实验室的开放农业计划（OpenAgri）接触到这个项目的。

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. It's a, yeah, we call it hazelnut computer. We call it the actual literally is a computer around the hazelnut tree. And so we came across the Open Agriculture Initiative, Open Agri Initiative at the MIT Media Lab.

作为MIT媒体实验室的成员，我们非常喜欢这个孕育新创意、激发灵感并开创事物的平台。Caleb Harper提出的这个概念非常引人入胜——农业本质上是缓慢的进程，但若能并行开展作物实验研究，特别是在开放数据平台上，就能显著加速进展。这虽然只是核心理念，但正是吸引我们关注的关键所在。

We are members of the MIT Media Lab. So we like the place, it's a great place to get new ideas and be inspired and start new things. Caleb Hopper, he started this concept that really was very intriguing because agriculture is such an inherently slow process is if you find a way to parallelize research experiments on a crop, you can actually leverage and if you do that in an open data platform, you can actually find a way to make progress much faster. That's kind of a concept. I mean, obviously there is much more into the open ag initiative, but that's kind of a concept that catch your mind at our attention.

以费列罗为例，我们在很多方面都可被视为拥有快消品前端的农业公司。我们在原材料采购、品质筛选方面实力雄厚，而榛子作为核心作物，其筛选标准、烘焙工艺及产品融入方式正是我们的核心价值所在。虽然我们采购量占全球很大份额，但榛子作为作物的科学研究却远不如杏仁或可可等作物深入。因此我们认为开放农业平台——通过所谓'食物计算机'构建的完全可控环境，结合开源硬件软件和开放数据，能精准调控他所说的'气象环境配方'中的每个变量——将是绝佳平台。

And if you think of Ferrero Ferrero is for many aspects could be described as an agricultural company with a CPG front end. We're really very strong on the raw materials, where we're sourcing, how we're selecting the quality and hazelnut is a critical crop for us because it's present in so many different products. It has a signature profile for us and the way we select hazelnuts based on the quality, the way roast them and the way we embed them into our product is really what our value added is. So hazelnut is very, very, very core but if you look at hazelnut, we buy a lot of hazelnut, a very very large share of hazelnut worldwide but if you look at hazelnut as a crop it's not very well understood, the science is not very understood, there's very poor scientific knowledge compared to other crops like almonds or cocoa for example that you know also important but you know not as critical for Ferrero. So you know we thought that this would be a great platform that the OpenAgri platform which is basically building this with what call the food computers, fully controlled environment, fully open source hardware and software, fully open data where you can control every single variable in the of the what he calls the weather and environment recipe.

通过这个系统可以调控温湿度、养分、光照等参数，实时监测植株状态，并在开放数据平台共享。我们与研究罗勒和棉花的Caleb探讨后，决定尝试将榛果树纳入食物计算机。首台原型机已完成，虽然体积仍较大但已是缩小版。目前我们正在培育一年生榛树苗，几个月后将完成第二代原型机。我们希望借此打造知识共享平台，吸引科学家们利用这个开放系统比对数据，共同提升榛树研究水平——这不仅惠及整个行业，费列罗也能从中获益，比如优化种植方案、适应气候变化、培育抗逆新品种等方面。

So you can control temperature, humidity, nutrients, light and you can measure everything in or you know that that's going on with plant and you share that in an open data platform you can use those data to generate a lot of knowledge and share a lot of knowledge. So we talked to to Caleb who was doing the basil and cotton and said well what about doing a tree? What about putting a hazelnut tree inside this food computer? So we started building this case in a computer which is now we've done with the first prototype and it's smaller scale and it's still large but it's a smaller scale. We're building a larger scale now and we've been successfully now be able to grow and you know, a smaller hesitant trees one year old right now and now we are we should be finishing with a second prototype in a few months and at that time we would like to start this kind of a knowledge platform is really apply the platform business model to this knowledge and we hope we can attract a lot of scientists intrigued by the openness of this platform, ability to compare data with other scientists, generate more knowledge around the hazelnut tree in an open environment where anybody would benefit and of course Ferrero would benefit as well because you know it increases the quality availability of you know all of a sudden where to grow what, how to adapt to climate conditions, how to establish best practices, how to breed the new varieties that can be more resilient and can also, you know, climate is clearly changing.

因此我们需要培育能适应不同环境条件的品种，这正是榛果计算机项目的核心意义所在。

So we need to think about, you know, varieties that can adapt in a different ways at different environments. And so that's what the case in a computer is about.

我非常赞同这一点。有趣的是，你们将费列罗的核心优势放在更宏观的层面来思考其应用场景。这实在太棒了，也能帮助听众理解如何运用这些方法论来推动组织内部的创新。既然提到技术，我很好奇从快消品行业的技术视角来看，最让你兴奋的是什么？

I love that. And what's interesting is you're taking a core competency within Ferrero and thinking about it on much more of a macro level in terms of how that can be applied. So I think that's that's amazing. And I think that's helpful for listeners to kind of understand how they can use those same methodologies to to spar innovation within their organization. So you mentioned technology, and I'm curious to find out for you, what excites you from a technology perspective in the CPG space?

具体来说，你们特别关注哪些技术领域？你认为未来两三年内哪些技术会变得尤为重要？

I mean, what what technology are you paying extra attention to? What do you feel are gonna be relevant within the next, you know, two to three years?

说实话，我们看到大量AI技术的应用——虽然现在这个词已经被用滥了，但确实非常重要。AI和机器学习在供应链各环节都有应用潜力：从辅助产品配方设计、包装材料选择，到优化农作物种植方式，预测产量和品质。AI正在颠覆多个领域，我们也在积极寻找能助力的变革者。当然，我们距离通用人工智能还很远，但垂直领域的AI应用已非常成功。这必将从多个维度带来颠覆性变革。

Well, I I mean, we we we tell you truth, we we see a lot of I mean, I know it's now it's a buzzword but a lot of AI in which is very important. We see AI machine learning application or potential application all over the places in the supply chain from assisting in formulating products to selecting the right materials for our packages to actually figure out best way to grow your crops, to predict yield, quality and quantity. So we I mean, there is a AI is definitely disrupting several fields and we definitely look for disruptors who can help us. You know, obviously, is is is is we are far from general AI, but but, you know there is still very vertical it's very successful when applied specifically to certain applications and so we constantly look and find disruptors in this space that are very very interesting. So definitely this is going to have a it's going to be very disruptive from many many perspectives.

另一个关键领域是消费者与技术的互动，这必将改变消费行为。比如个人健康监测设备的发展就令人着迷——像持续血糖监测仪(CGM)正吸引苹果谷歌等巨头投资。这些设备未来将不仅服务于糖尿病患者，更会进入普通消费者市场。作为甜食生产企业，我们必须思考如何借助这些技术帮助消费者做出更明智选择，同时设计更符合需求的产品。

Another area where I think is the interplay between consumer and technologies will definitely impact and you know consumer behavior, shift consumer behavior probably is also very intriguing, very interesting. If you look at what the world of personal health devices is going to. I'm very intrigued by for example, the money that is being invested in CGMs, continuous glucose monitors. They you know that that I'm I'm intrigued to see companies even like Apple and Google investing in them. And and we do not just target a diabetic population, in general, at some point, I see them personal devices belonging to general consumers And being a company that is in sweet packaged food, I think it makes us, it it it definitely, we need to understand, that how better leverage these technologies to help consumers better make better choices, but also design the right products for those consumers.

这就引出一个问题：当消费者能实时看到食物对自己身体的影响，而不再仅凭包装上的卡路里标签做选择时——毕竟卡路里来源（糖分/蛋白质/脂肪）对代谢的影响截然不同——他们的消费行为会发生怎样的转变？这对我们行业将产生深远影响，最终会让消费者掌握更多主动权，也让厂商能更精准地提供服务。理解食物对人体的真实影响，才能做出健康选择。结合基因革命带来的代谢路径研究突破，我们将能打造更好的产品。

And so, you wonder, right, is that consumer going to focus today they can focus when they make decision related to their health only to what they read on the package and number of calories which we know sometimes is not very meaningful because it really depends whether calories come from sugars, for proteins, for fat. Mean it's a little different by their metabolic response. So by consumers really seeing what happens to them in real time they wonder more how if and how the consumer their behavior will change, will shift and I think it's that's going to have a strong impact on our industry and that's I think is a positive end game because it will put consumers more in control but also will give you know manufacturers like Ferrero a better ability to serve them in the appropriate way because it's not just what you eat but what you need to understand what it does to you so that you can make healthy choices and that's going to be that's going to be to me is a very positive area to combine them with what's happening in the world of Onyx in general that allows you to understand a metabolic pathways a little bit better, metabolic response a little bit better, powered by the revolution in genetics and all of this will allow us to make better products consumers to actually test what these products will do to them.

说得太好了。如果要给想要推动组织创新的听众一个建议，你会说什么？

Good stuff. So if there was one tip that you could give listeners who are looking to drive innovation within their organization, what would that be?

首要建议是理解组织的文化边界——若始终以局外人姿态行事就难有作为，必须融入组织同时保持外部视角。其次要识别不同创新机会的势能差异，选择那些能快速见效的突破口建立信誉，再借势推进。这个策略很关键。

Well, I think number one tip is that really try to understand the cultural boundaries in your organization, because if you play as an outsider, you cannot be impactful, you have to become an insider and still have an outsider mindset. And I would say also understand around that the momentum that some innovation has versus others. Not all opportunities are equal. You need to ride the momentum of the opportunities where you think that you can really push, establish those quick wins that allow you to build credibility and then leverage. That's what, that doesn't make sense.

那么最后一个问题，也是今天最重要的问题。你手机里哪个应用是你离不开的？

So last question, most important question of the day. What's the one app on your phone that you can't live without?

绝对是谷歌地图。

Google Maps, for sure.

很棒。嗯，我想感谢你今天抽时间接受采访，乔瓦尼。我觉得这次对话非常有见地，我自己也学到了很多。与不同行业的领导者交流总是令人着迷，但我认为你特别围绕创新策略及其在企业中的应用提供了独特的视角，相信听众们会非常欣赏。

Good stuff. Well, I I wanna thank you for your time today, Giovanni. I think this was extremely insightful. I know I learned a lot. It's always fascinating talking to various leaders in different industries, but I thought you brought a perspective specific around some of the tactics related to innovation and how to incorporate that to in the corporations that I think the listeners are going to appreciate.

如果听众们想在网上或通过社交媒体关注你，你愿意分享一下联系方式吗？

So if there's anywhere the listeners can follow you online or through social media, do you want to share that?

不用了，我现在不太喜欢通过推特与人互动。我的推特账号基本处于静默状态。所以没有唯一的联系方式，不过通常人们会通过LinkedIn上的个人资料联系我，如果他们想与我互动的话。这样以非私人方式关注我对他们很有帮助。所以我鼓励人们通过这种方式与我建立联系。

Don't, I'm not a big fan these days of interacting with people through Twitter. My Twitter account is fairly silent. So there's not I mean, there's not a only way, but I mean, normally people contact me on LinkedIn, on my profile if they want to interact with me. So it's very helpful for them to follow me in a non personal way. So I encourage people to get in touch with me and establish that personal relationship.

如果有什么有趣的话题，我们当然可以通过这种方式交流。太棒了，我想感谢

If there is something interesting we can talk about, we can definitely interact that way. Fantastic. I want to thank

你今天的时间。这次交流非常愉快，期待与你保持联系。

you for your time today. It was truly a pleasure and I look forward to staying in touch with you.

不客气。

My pleasure.

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