奇异果与捕食者

我是阿伊莎·罗斯科，您正在收听《周日故事》节目，我们将带您深入探讨每日新闻背后的重大故事。新西兰正在进行一项宏大实验。该国正试图拯救其濒危野生动物，这些物种在地球上其他地方都找不到。但为此，他们正在消灭那些非本土且已泛滥成灾的动物。这是一场全国性的灭绝行动，堪称全球最雄心勃勃的生态计划之一，同时也引发了人类为拯救自然世界究竟该走多远的思考。

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and you're listening to the Sunday story where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. A huge experiment is underway in New Zealand. The country is trying to save its endangered wildlife, animals found nowhere else on the planet. But to do that, they're killing animals that aren't native and have been taking over. It's a nationwide extermination campaign, one of the most ambitious in the world, and it's raising questions about just how far humans should go to save the natural world.

NPR气候专栏的劳伦·萨默刚从新西兰归来，现在加入我们的讨论。你好，劳伦。

Lauren Summer from NPR's Climate Desk went to New Zealand and joins us now. Hi, Lauren.

嘿，好的。没错，我去了新西兰，我想带大家认识几位从事这项工作的人。

Hey there. Okay. So, yes, I went to New Zealand, and I wanna introduce you to some of the people doing this work.

如果你下来这边，我们可以带你看看这条穿过公园的小溪。

If you come down here, we can actually show you the small stream that runs through here.

这是米拉·麦肯齐，我在新西兰达尼丁的一个社区公园里遇见了她。那里是她学生团队的志愿服务地点，他们做了很多工作：清理垃圾、种植新植被。

So that's Mila McKenzie, and, I met her in a neighborhood park in Dunedin, New Zealand. And that's where her student group volunteers, and they've done a lot. You know, they clean up litter. They put in new plants.

今年我们大概种了100到200棵树。

I think this year, we've put about one to 200 trees.

这是芬恩·希伯特，团队里的另一名学生。这个组织名叫‘镇带守护者’。

That's Finn Hibbert. He's another student in the group, and it's called Town Belt Kaitiaki.

几乎可以说是幸运，所有孩子都喜欢除草。

It's, it's lucky almost that all of the kids love weeding.

这让我难以置信，因为我受不了除草，但他们这样做很棒，而且他们是在保护环境。这很好。

I find that hard to to believe because I can't stand weeding, but that's great that they're doing this, and they're, like, taking care of the environment. That's nice.

没错。但他们做的也是大多数孩子不会做的事。

Yeah. Exactly. But they're also doing something that most kids don't do.

这些基本上是陷阱。是的，我们称这些为诱捕站。

These are traps, basically. Yes. We call these trapping stations.

所以他们正在诱捕并杀死那些本不该在新西兰的动物。

So they're trapping and killing animals that aren't supposed to be in New Zealand.

我们有负鼠陷阱，就是树上那些白色的装置。然后下面这些是老鼠夹，那些小型隧道式的装置。

So we have a possum trap, so the white ones that are up on the trees. And then we have down here, like, our rat and mice traps, they're the small, like, tunnel ones.

麦肯齐和希伯特正在作为全国性目标的一部分进行这项工作，而且规模很大。目标是彻底根除多种入侵物种。这些动物是人类带到新西兰的，有些是意外带来的，比如老鼠，而有些则是故意引入的。这些入侵物种对本地野生动物，尤其是鸟类，造成了毁灭性影响。

So Mackenzie and Hibbert are doing this as part of a nationwide goal, and it's big. It's to completely eradicate many invasive species. So these are animals that were brought to New Zealand by humans. Some were brought by accident, like rats, while others were actually introduced on purpose. And these invasive species have been devastating for native wildlife, especially birds.

已有超过60种鸟类灭绝，现存的大多数也面临威胁。因此，保护专家表示，拯救这些物种意味着要清除入侵物种，这正是这些学生们正在协助的工作。

More than 60 bird species have gone extinct, and most of those that are left are threatened. So conservation experts say saving those species means getting rid of invasive species, and that's what these students are helping with.

虽然有时想想确实有点恶心，但从伦理角度看这其实相当合理——消灭引发问题的物种，总比任由它们灭绝其他所有生物要容易得多。

Though it is a bit gross sometimes, just thinking about it's a bit gross, It's actually quite an ethical thing because it's easy if you kill off something that's causing a problem, then let instead of letting them kill off everything else.

那么这些人是志愿者吗？还是政府组织的活动？

So are these like volunteers or is this like something the government is running?

是的，这其实是全国性的行动。政府提供资金并承担大部分工作，但普通民众也作为志愿者参与其中，贡献自己的力量。

Yeah. It's really kind of this nationwide thing. I mean, the government is funding it. The government is doing a lot of the work, but everyday people are also volunteering. They're chipping in.

整个行动被称为'2050无掠食者计划'，因为目标是在2050年前完成。

And the whole effort is called predator free twenty fifty, because the goal is to do it by 2050.

具体要消灭的动物数量大概有多少？

How many animals are we talking about here in terms of of what would be eradicated?

没人知道确切数字，但数量庞大。估计有数千万甚至更多。

So no one knows exactly, but it's a lot. I mean, there are estimates that it's in the tens of millions, probably more.

这个死亡数字非常高。

That is a very high body count.

是的。我认为所有人都在问的问题是，这真的可能实现吗？这里存在巨大的挑战。技术挑战、伦理挑战，而且这是全球最具野心的入侵物种清除计划。新西兰的解决方案将对其他试图拯救濒危物种的地区产生重大影响。

Yeah. And I think the question that everyone's asking is, is it even possible? There are just huge challenges here. Technical challenges, ethical challenges, and this is the most ambitious invasive species removal in the world. So what New Zealand figures out will have a huge influence on other places that are trying to save their endangered species.

所以今天的周日故事将探讨：拯救地球上最稀有动物可能需要付出什么代价。请继续收听。

So today on the Sunday story, what it could take to save some of the planet's rarest animals. Stay with us.

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《我们共同的自然》是一段与马友友和我——安娜·冈萨雷斯——穿越这个复杂国家的音乐之旅。

Our common nature is a musical journey with Yo Yo Ma and me, Anna Gonzalez, through this complicated country.

我们深入洞穴、登上船只、攀登山径，去遇见人们，聆听他们的故事，当然还会演奏音乐，这一切都是为了重新与自然建立联系。

We go into caves, onto boats, and up mountain trails to meet people, hear their stories, and, of course, play some music, all to reconnect to nature.

请在任意播客平台收听WNYC出品的《我们共同的自然》。

Listen to our common nature from WNYC wherever you get podcasts.

在Radiolab，我们最热衷的就是钻研科学、神经科学和化学。

At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

但我们同样喜欢探索其他类型的故事——关于警务或政治的故事。乡村音乐。冰球。昆虫的性别。

But but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or Politics. Country music. Hockey. Sex of bugs.

无论我们探讨的是科学还是非科学领域，我们都带着严谨的好奇心为你寻找答案。

Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers.

并希望能让你以全新的视角看世界。

And hopefully, make you see the world anew.

RadioLab，探索认知边界的冒险之旅。

RadioLab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know.

无论你在哪里收听播客。

Wherever you get your podcasts.

这是一个周日故事。我是Ayesha Roscoe，今天与NPR记者Lauren Summer一起。Lauren，你去了新西兰，总能接到最棒的任务。不过我得说我对新西兰的野生动物很了解，这让我想起你有时会在儿童绘本里看到的那种鸟。

This is a Sunday story. I'm Ayesha Roscoe joined today by NPR correspondent Lauren Summer. So Lauren, you went to New Zealand, you seem to get the best gigs. But I can say I know a lot about New Zealand's wildlife. It does kind of make me think of this bird that you see in children's books sometimes.

是几维鸟，对吧？

It's the kiwi. Right?

对对，就是几维鸟。它是新西兰最著名的鸟类，可以说是国家的象征。

Yeah. Yeah. The kiwi. It's the most famous bird in New Zealand. It's kind of this national symbol.

新西兰人实际上就被称为'kiwis'，这是他们的昵称。你见过的对吧？我马上给你发张照片。

New Zealanders are actually known as kiwis. That's their nickname. You've seen it. Right? Let me send you a picture real quick.

等一下。天啊，它们真的好圆啊，还有这么长的喙。

Hold on. Oh my goodness. They're really round. They have this really long beak.

这鸟长得真特别。

It is a unique looking bird.

就是那种呆萌的可爱。你大概能想到，在新西兰有很多狂热粉丝，我就遇到过一位。

Like, dorky cute. And as you might imagine in New Zealand, there are people that are huge fans, and I met one of them.

它非常特别，而且个性十足。就像你一旦见过它们，就会爱上它们。

It's really unusual, and it's got a lot of attitude. And it's like, once you see them, you just love them.

这位是克莱尔·特拉弗斯，她在法卡塔尼几维鸟信托工作，该组织致力于保护几维鸟。她说尽管几维鸟非常出名，但很多新西兰人其实从未亲眼见过它们。原因一是它们只在夜间活动，二是它们的数量正在不断减少。

So that's Claire Travers. She works for the Fakatani Kiwi Trust, which is a group that helps to save kiwi. And she says even though they're super famous birds, a lot of people in New Zealand have never actually seen a kiwi. One, because they only come out at nighttime, but also because they're disappearing.

哦，哇。所以这种国鸟正面临沦为象征符号的风险。

Oh, wow. So this is a national bird that's at risk of becoming just a symbol.

没错，这正是人们所担忧的。不过特拉弗斯是少数知道如何寻找这些鸟类的人之一。

Yeah. Exactly. That's what people are worried about. But, you know, Travers is one person who does know how to find these birds.

我们现在要做的就是外出定位一只幼鸟。

What we're gonna do now is go out and locate a young chick.

于是我们开始寻找一只刚被放归野外的五周大雏鸟。当时是白天，几维鸟通常藏在地洞里。但这只雏鸟装有无线电发射器，团队通过扫描信号来定位它的位置。

So we went looking for a five week old chick that they had just released into the wild. And, you know, it was daytime, so that's when kiwi are in their underground burrows. But this chick had a radio transmitter. So the team was kind of scanning for that signal, which helps them figure out where it is.

嗯。能

Yeah. Can

看到那个。

see that one.

哦，看那边，现在信号越来越强了。70欧，71欧。

Oh, look. It's getting stronger there now. 70 oh, 71.

当时我们在新西兰华卡塔尼的一片丛林中，那里植被异常茂密。巨大的蕨类植物和高大的树木让穿行变得极为困难，更别说找到几维鸟了。好了，我们继续。

So we were in a jungle in Whakatani, New Zealand, and it was incredibly dense. It was just giant ferns, huge trees. It was not easy to walk through and find this kiwi. Okay. Here we go.

所以那是麦克风碰撞到一堆东西时发出的声音。

So that that's the the sound of the microphone, like, bumping into a bunch of stuff.

是的，我已经尽力跟上了。途中我们确实看到了几维鸟活动的痕迹。

Yeah. I was doing my best to keep up. Along the way, we did see these kind of signs of kiwi.

你可以看到这些洞

So you can see these holes

这里。哦，对。

here. Oh, yeah.

那是克劳蒂娅·布沙尔，她是几维鸟保护项目的志愿者。她当时正指着泥土里这些像是穿刺形成的小洞。

That's Krotura Bouchard, and she volunteers with the kiwi project. She was pointing to a bunch of these, like, little holes in the dirt. They were kind of like puncture holes.

所以它们会竖起信标，有时还会轻轻摇晃几下。

So they'll stick their beacon, and they kinda sometimes swirl it around a little.

这大概就是它们寻找蠕虫和虫子吃的方式。我们搜寻了整个上午，终于锁定了那只雏鸟。

It's kinda how they find worms and bugs to eat. And so we searched all morning, and then we finally zeroed in on the chick. I

明白了。

got it.

那是只北岛褐几维鸟，就像个长着长喙的毛绒小绒球。

It was a North Island brown kiwi. It was just like this tiny little fluff ball with a long beak.

我们正在检查它的眼睛和耳朵。

We're checking her eyes and ears.

于是他们给它做了健康检查，发现它体重减轻了一些。

So they did a health check on her, and they found that she had lost a little weight.

没错。你希望它们有点暴躁，希望它们有点好斗。

Right. You want them a bit stroppy. You want them a bit feisty.

那是个不错的

That was a good

事情。是啊。

thing. Yeah.

但你看到她有多小了吗？她独自一人住在这里

But you see how small she is? She's she's living here all on her own

只是做点事。年轻

just doing a thing. Young

几维鸟非常脆弱。它们中只有约5%能存活下来，主要因为一种捕食者——白鼬。

kiwi are really vulnerable. Only about five percent of them survive there, and that's mostly because of one predator, stoats.

好的。那白鼬是什么？

Okay. So what is a stoat?

它们与雪貂和黄鼠狼是近亲，虽然只有约一英尺长，但简直就是终结者。我是说，这是新西兰各地人们对它们的描述。

They're related to ferrets and weasels, and they're only about a foot long, but they're basically the terminator. I mean, here's how people all over New Zealand describe them to me.

它们非常聪明，非常非常聪明。我是说，一只白鼬会挑战比它大得多的掠食者。

They are very smart. Very, very smart. I mean, a stoat will take on a predator that's much, much bigger than it is.

它们跑得飞快，能爬树，还会游泳。

They they run really fast. They can climb trees. They can swim.

不可思议的掠食者，顶级掠食者。

Incredible predators. Apex predators.

按体重比例来说，它们是地球上最惊人的食肉动物之一。

They're sort of pound to pound, one of the most amazing carnivores on earth.

它们是

They're

极其狡猾的，绝对是令人惊叹的杀戮机器。

extremely sneaky. They're absolutely amazing, killing machines.

天啊。我看着它们的照片，它们看起来那么可爱，却是杀戮机器。对它们的描述简直令人难以置信。

Oh my goodness. I mean, I'm looking at a picture of them. They look so cute. They're killing machines. What the description of them is incredible.

我是说，这听起来确实像恐怖电影里的情节，但它们看起来太可爱了。所以说外表可能具有欺骗性。

I mean, it does sound like something out of a horror movie, but they look so cute. So looks can be deceiving.

哦，完全同意。没错。如果你是一只新西兰的鸟，这就是你的噩梦。白鼬是欧洲殖民者带来的，他们原本是为了控制兔子数量才引进兔子的，结果兔子泛滥成灾。于是他们又引进了白鼬来控制兔子，结果白鼬开始捕食新西兰的鸟类。

Oh, absolutely. Yes. If you're a bird in New Zealand, this is your nightmare. And stoats were brought by European settlers because they had actually brought in rabbits for hunting, but the rabbit population got out of control. So then they brought in stoats to control the rabbits, and then the stoats started eating New Zealand's birds.

好吧。所以他们以为自己解决了一个问题，结果却制造了更大的麻烦。

Okay. So so they thought they were solving one problem, but they created a much bigger one.

是啊。这其实是全球入侵物种的典型故事。因为新西兰的鸟类从未与这类捕食者共同进化。这个国家除了蝙蝠外没有本土哺乳动物。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of a standard story with so many invasive species around the planet. Because New Zealand birds did not evolve with predators like this. The country had no native mammals aside from bats.

所以鸟类只需要提防鹰和猛禽这类来自天空的捕食者。新西兰的鸟类会用伪装隐藏自己，遇到威胁时会僵住不动，这样就不会被上方的捕食者发现。但显然，当捕食者是地面上的哺乳动物时，这招就不管用了。

So the only thing the birds had to worry about were predators like eagles and raptors, things that kind of hunt from the sky. So New Zealand's birds, they use camouflage to hide or they would kind of just freeze when they were threatened so that they weren't seen from above. But, obviously, that doesn't really work when the predator is a mammal on the ground right next to you.

因为当你僵住时，就像恐怖电影里摔倒的情节，它们就能轻易得手。现在你成了完美的猎物。

Because when you freeze, it's like when you fall in a horror movie, then they can really get you. Now you are the perfect prey.

更糟糕的是，几维鸟这类鸟类不会飞，根本无处可逃。克莱尔·特拉弗斯告诉我，白鼬会嗅出几维鸟的巢穴，在雏鸟离巢时直接捕食它们。

And add to that, birds like kiwi can't fly, so they really can't get away. Claire Travers told me that Stoats sniff out the kiwi burrows, and then they just pick off the chicks right when they leave the nest.

你发现一条腿上绑着小发射器，而其余部分已被一只壮实的动物拖走吃掉，想到为这只鸟付出的所有努力最终落得如此下场，这真让我心碎。

So you find a leg with a little transmitter attached where a stout has dragged it and eaten the rest of it, and you just think all that work put into that bird just to be like that. That's the heartbreak for me.

确实很残酷。显然，几维鸟需要帮助。

Well, that is tough. Clearly, the kiwi, they need some help.

没错。这就是设置陷阱的意义所在。

Yeah. And that's where the trapping comes in.

汤姆在这里部署了200号码头陷阱，这就是捕兽装置。

So Tom's got a dock 200 here. That's the trap mechanism.

这位是盖伊·佩斯，她是法卡塔尼几维鸟信托基金的掠食动物控制协调员。她向我展示了他们设计用来捕捉白鼬的陷阱——一个放置在地面的金属网箱，陷阱部分位于后方。

That's Gay Pays. She's the predator control coordinator for the Fakatani Kiwi Trust. She showed me one of their traps, which is designed to catch stoats. It's kind of this wire mesh box on the ground, and then the trap part is at the back.

这是块金属板，当被压下时会触发机关，一根沉重的横杆落下，能瞬间压碎并杀死动物。

It's a metal plate, which when it's depressed, goes off and a heavy bar comes down and and crushes and kills the animal instantly.

佩斯告诉我，这些陷阱都经过动物福利测试以确保尽可能人道，他们已经布设了数百个这样的陷阱来捕捉白鼬。

So Pace told me that the traps have gone through animal welfare testing to make sure they're as humane as possible, and they've set hundreds of these traps to try to catch stoats.

每只白鼬都是一次小胜利。说真的，这是巨大的成功，因为它们实在太难捕捉了。刚开始时可能觉得容易，但到了我们这个项目阶段——已经持续了二十多年——你面对的才是真正的硬骨头。

Each stoat is a little victory. It's a huge victory, really, because they are such hard animals to to capture. I mean, it's easy to when you start, but when you get to this stage in our project, we've been going for, like, over twenty years, you're really down to the hardcore.

我是说，什么叫硬核白鼬？因为我觉得白鼬本身就已经够硬核了。

I mean, what's a hardcore stoat? Because I I thought that stoats were, you know, pretty hardcore at this point.

没错。硬核白鼬是指那些学会避开陷阱的个体。它们不仅自己不中招，还会教导幼崽躲避陷阱。显然这让捕捉变得异常困难，简直像场战役。但特拉弗斯说她绝不能临阵退缩。

Yeah. So the hardcore Stoats are the ones that have learned to avoid traps. They don't go in them, and they teach their young to avoid the traps too. So, obviously, that makes it really hard for them to catch, and it kinda makes this a battle. But Travers told me it's one she can't walk away from.

如果我们不作为国家力量保护几维鸟，不出两代人的时间，它们就会彻底灭绝。

If we weren't doing what we were doing as a a nation for Kiwi, you know, within the next two generations, they'd have they'd be gone.

而且濒危的不只是几维鸟。新西兰约有4000种本土物种面临威胁。所以才会制定这个国家目标——彻底清除白鼬。对吧？

And, you know, it's not just kiwi in trouble. Around 4,000 native species overall are threatened in New Zealand. So that's where this national goal is coming from. It's to get rid of stoats. Right?

但目标物种还包括其他动物，比如黄鼬、雪貂，以及三种鼠类。

But it's other species too. So weasels, ferrets, and three species of rats.

是的，这个目标既大胆又雄心勃勃，但我认为这正是当今世界需要做的事。

Yeah. It's it's bold and ambitious, but I believe that that's what we need to do in the world.

这位就是布伦特·贝文。他在新西兰保护部负责2050年无掠食者计划。

So that's Brent Bevan. He manages the predator free twenty fifty program at New Zealand's Department of Conservation.

如果我们不采取行动，那就是在通过不作为杀害本土野生动物。选择不行动本身就是一种行动。无论哪种方式，我们的决定都将导致某些生命的消亡。

If we don't take action, we are killing our native wildlife by omission. Choosing not to take an action is an action. So either way, something's gonna die based on on the decisions we make.

嗯，这似乎是个重大的伦理问题，对吧？比如动物权益方面，因为有人认为杀害任何生物都是错误的。为了拯救濒临灭绝的物种而杀害另一个物种，这在道德上是否正当？

Well, mean, seems like this is a big ethical question. Right? Like, there's the animal rights aspect of it because there are people who would argue that killing any living creature is wrong. And is it ethical to kill one species of animal to save another species of animal that could go extinct?

没错，这确实是个核心问题。我采访过一位研究新西兰这场辩论的学者。奥克兰大学的艾米丽·帕克专攻保护伦理学，她表示在新西兰，消灭入侵物种的理念并未引发太大争议。

Right. That's a really big question here. And I talked to someone who looked into this debate in New Zealand. Emily Park studies the ethics of conservation at the University of Auckland. And she said the idea of killing invasive species hasn't been a big sticking point in New Zealand.

引发的伦理问题其实不在于'这样做是否合适'，而更多在于'执行过程中应秉持什么价值观'。即使我们都认同新西兰无掠食者的目标，对实现方式仍可能存在分歧。

The ethical questions that arise are really less about, is it okay to do this and more about what value should we be upholding as we do it. Even if we all agree with the aim of a predator for you in New Zealand, we might disagree about ways of achieving that aim.

例如，新西兰防止虐待动物协会等组织表示希望开发非致命控制方法，但他们也承认控制入侵物种确有必要。民调显示，总体上新西兰公众对此相当支持。对当地毛利部落等原住民社区而言，本土野生动物具有重要文化意义。许多受访者表示：既然是人类造成的问题，就该由我们来解决。正如艾米丽·帕克所说，这类目标离不开公众支持。

So for instance, animal rights groups like New Zealand's SPCA say they wanna see the development of nonlethal methods of control, but they do recognize there's a need to control invasive species. And overall, the New Zealand public is largely supportive according to polling. Native wildlife is also really important culturally to the indigenous communities there, many of the Maori tribes. A lot of people I spoke to just said, you know, humans cause this problem, so it's our job to fix it. And as Emily Park told me, that public support is crucial for a goal like this.

实现新西兰无掠食者既是生物挑战，更是社会挑战。这不仅需要研发正确技术方法，还需要推动深刻的社会变革。

Predator free New Zealand is as much a social challenge as it is a biological challenge. This isn't just about coming up with the right technologies and methods. It's about a lot of social change.

她表示这某种程度上是在重塑我们对这些可爱毛茸茸哺乳动物的文化认知，意味着要清除人们后院里的那些生物。因此必须获得公众的支持。

She says it's kind of about reframing our cultural ideas of these kinda cute, fuzzy mammals, and it means getting rid of stuff that's living in people's backyard. So there really has to be public buy in.

那么这就是围绕是否应该这样做的争论。但关键问题是，他们能做到吗？有没有其他方法可以在不进行全国性根除的情况下拯救新西兰的野生动物？

So that's the debate around, like, should this be done? But but what about, the question of, like, can they do this? Like, is there any other way to save New Zealand's wildlife without trying to do this countrywide eradication?

确实还有其他几种策略。我实地考察过其中一种。记得《侏罗纪公园》里那些巨大的围栏和大门吗？

There are a few other strategies. Yeah. And I actually went to see one of them. You know the movie Jurassic Park where there's just those, like, huge fences and gates?

就是用来关住恐龙的那些，很多还通了电防止它们逃脱。

The ones that, like, keep the dinosaurs inside, and and a lot of them are, like, electrified, so they can't get out.

没错。基本上这就是我去参观的东西。

Yeah. Exactly. That is basically what I went to see.

广告之后，我们将揭晓围栏背后的秘密。请别走开。

After the break, we find out what's behind the fence. Stay with us.

我是艾拉·格拉斯。在《美国生活》节目中，我们讲述真实的故事，非常精彩的故事。

I'm Ira Glass. On This American Life, we tell real life stories, really good ones.

我母亲说，我很抱歉你当时不在场，因为萨格神父来拜访了，他还为你找到了一家很不错的孤儿院。可我说，但我不是孤儿。

My mother said, I'm I'm sorry that you weren't here because, father Sager was here visiting, and he found a very nice orphanage for you. And I said, but I'm not an orphan.

你的播客订阅里藏着惊喜故事。这里是《美国生活》。

Surprising stories in your podcast feed. This American life.

在NPR的《Throughline》播客中，讲述那些支撑互联网运行的海底电缆的故事。

On the Throughline podcast from NPR, the story of the undersea cables that run the Internet.

其他历史学家将其比作登月的阿波罗计划。请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《Throughline》。

Other historians have compared it to the Apollo missions of going to the moon. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

嘿，我是《汽车脱口秀》的雷。你厌倦了NPR节目里那些深刻的思考和精心制作的内容吗？想来点老式的插科打诨和手忙脚乱解决问题吗？我又开始偶尔回答汽车问题了。

Hey. It's Ray from Car Talk. You're tired of all the depth and thoughtful care that goes into NPR shows? Want some good old fashioned goofing around and stumbling to figure out what's going on? Well, I've been taking occasional car questions again.

你可以通过订阅NPR Plus来收听这些内容，还有大量其他独家福利。只需访问+.npr.org。

You can hear them by signing up for NPR Plus along with lots of other bonus content. Just go to +.npr.org.

欢迎回来，现在由NPR的劳伦·萨默带我们去新西兰探访一些非常珍稀的动物。

We're back with NPR's Lauren Summer who's taking us to visit some very rare animals in New Zealand.

是的。这是一个高度安全的情况。所以这就是围栏。

Yes. And it is a high security situation. So this is the fence.

我们现在在行人出入口，这是访客进出的唯一通道。

We're at the pedestrian gate, the ped gate. This is the only way in and out for pedestrians visiting.

麦迪逊·凯利带我参观了六英尺高的加固金属围栏。她在达尼丁郊外的奥罗科努伊生态保护区工作。她说所有人都会联想到《侏罗纪公园》。

So Madison Kelly took me to see a six foot tall fortified metal fence. She works at the Oroconui Eco Sanctuary outside of Dunedin. And she says everyone thinks of Jurassic Park.

没错没错。我带父亲来这里时，他说的第一句话就是这个。

Yes. Yes. That's the very first thing my dad said when I took him here.

实际上这个围栏的设计目的不是防止内部生物逃出，而是防止白鼬和老鼠等外来生物进入。

So this fence isn't actually designed to keep things in. It keeps things out like stoats and rats.

因为我们都知道《侏罗纪公园》里的围栏在防止生物逃出方面效果不佳。

Because we know the fences in in Jurassic Park don't work so well at keeping things in.

对，正是如此。围栏顶部向外呈喇叭状弯曲，所以没有生物能爬过去。顶部还装有触发警报的电线。

Yeah. Exactly. So, like, the top of it is kind of flared outward. It curves outward, so nothing can climb over it. There is an electric wire on top, which triggers an alarm.

全天候监控，甚至还有准入密码。

There's twenty four seven monitoring, and there's even a code to get in.

而且每天都会变。

And that changes every day.

但你知道吗，在内部，本土鸟类却能繁衍生息。

But, you know, inside, native birds are able to thrive.

清晨听到震耳的鸟鸣交响曲，真的很难开口说话。

It's hard to talk, you know, if you hear first thing in the morning the dawn chorus immense.

要知道，我们周围到处都是这些叫蜜雀的黑蓝色鸟儿。

You know, all around us, there are these black and blue birds called tui.

哦，我是说，听起来你完全可以从中创作出某种舞曲。有种电子音乐的范儿。

Oh, I mean, it it sounds like you could get some sort of, like, dance song out of that. I mean, it has a kind of a techno vibe.

没错。还有只鸽子长得跟鸡一样大。

Yeah. Exactly. There was also a pigeon the size of a chicken.

那是一只基特杜鸟，就是刚刚飞过去的那只。对，体型特别巨大。没错。

It's a kitterdoo. That one that just flew past. Yeah. That was enormous. Yep.

所以它们都很大只。

So they are huge.

好的，我刚查了查这种鸟，它其实是一种巨型鸽子。虽然我不太想在公园长椅上看到它，但对观鸟爱好者来说应该会很喜欢吧？

Okay. So I just looked up this this bird and it is it is a giant pigeon, which I I don't know that I would like to see that on a park bench. But for bird watchers, they would probably like that. Right?

是啊，这就是它的特别之处。这些鸟很多都独一无二。对凯莉来说，这个生态保护区因为她的毛利原住民血统而格外特别。

Yeah. Yeah. That was the thing about it. So many of these birds are so unique. And for Kelly, she said this eco sanctuary is really special to her because of her indigenous Maori heritage.

要知道奥塔卡努伊不仅是个生物多样性项目，更是个社区项目。这里保存着我们的传说、森林、物种和珍宝（taoka），让那些故事和知识得以在森林中延续——这些在其他地方可能早已失传。

You know, Otakanui is obviously a biodiversity project, but it's also a community project. It's also a place where some of our stories, our forests, our species, our taoka, so those are treasures, can be active here in a way where that storytelling and that knowledge keeping is still stored in the forest, might be lost elsewhere.

但保护这些鸟类需要持续警惕。就像我们聊过的，《侏罗纪公园》里的围栏并不总是管用。有年大雪后，白鼬不知怎么就越过了围栏，当时保护区里还生活着非常稀有的南岛鞍背鸟。

But, you know, protecting these birds, it takes constant vigilance. I mean, we kinda talked about how those fences in Jurassic Park don't always work. Right? And after a big snowstorm one year, stoats were somehow able to get over the fence. It was when this very rare bird, the South Island Saddleback, was also living in the sanctuary.

那些白鼬基本上把它们一只只捕杀了。我们花了整整好几个月才把那些白鼬全部追踪到。

They basically were picked off one by one by those stoats. It took months and months and months to actually track down those stoats.

嗯，我能理解为什么白鼬想进来。对它们来说，这里简直就是一场盛宴。

I well, I could see why stoats would wanna get in. I mean, this is basically like a feast for them.

没错。所以要确保这种情况不发生需要大量工作。所有这些工作，持续的检查，还有建造这些围栏本身，都意味着生态保护区并不便宜。它们要花费数百万美元。

Yeah. Right. And so it just takes a ton of work to make sure that doesn't happen. All that work, the constant checking, you know, building these fences in the first place, all of that means eco sanctuaries aren't cheap. They cost millions of dollars.

但有些人认为它们更具价值。我和约翰·英尼斯谈过，他在新西兰生物经济科学研究所研究保护工作，那是一个国家研究实验室。他说他更希望把重点放在这些生态保护区上，而不是全国范围的根除计划。

But some people think they are a better value. I talked to John Innis, studies conservation at the New Zealand Institute for Bioeconomy Science, which is a national research lab. He says he'd rather see the focus on these eco sanctuaries instead of the nationwide eradication.

我认为'2050年前无掠食者'这个想法一直没什么帮助。说清楚一点，当然这个愿景很棒。谁会不同意呢？当然很好。但我们几年来已经花费了数千万美元，人们却没有建造我们知道有效的东西。

I think the idea is has been unhelpful, predator free by 2050. Just to be clear, I think, of course, the vision is wonderful. Who could who could disagree with that? Of course, it's good. But we have ended up spending tens of millions of dollars now for several years, and people are not building things that we know work.

在新西兰全面根除外来入侵物种的总成本会是多少？有人估算过这个数字吗？

What would be the total cost for fully eradicating the invasive species across New Zealand? Has anyone put a price tag on that?

目前只有估算。现在新西兰已经为此花费了数百万美元，但要完全清除入侵物种，保守估计每年要花费超过1亿美元，实际可能更多。

There's really just estimates. I mean, right now, New Zealand already spends millions of dollars on this, but fully getting rid of invasive species, it's estimated to be more than a 100,000,000 per year, and that's conservative. It's probably a lot more.

那可是一大笔钱。

That's a lot of money.

是的。目前他们已成功在近海一些小岛上根除了入侵物种。但可想而知，要在一个面积达10万平方英里的国家里诱捕和清除这些动物，需要耗费巨大的工作量、人力和时间。

Yeah. You know, so far, they have succeeded at eradicating invasive species on some small islands right off the coast. But as you can imagine, it just takes a huge amount of work and labor and people time to trap and get rid of animals across a country that's, you know, a 100,000 square miles.

你交谈过的人们认为新西兰能实现这个目标吗？嗯，

What do the people you talk to, do they think New Zealand will be able to reach this goal? Well,

需要指出的是，这不是非全即无的事情。即使只是减少这些入侵捕食者的数量，也能对当地的许多鸟类大有帮助。但大多数专家告诉我，目前新西兰要完全根除这些物种还不太可能。要使这个目标勉强可行，需要新技术来大幅提高控制入侵物种的效率。确实有人在研究这个。

one thing to point out, it's not all or nothing. So even just reducing the numbers of these invasive predators can be a big help for many of the birds there. But most experts told me, right now, it's just really unlikely that New Zealand can do this full eradication. To make that goal even remotely feasible, there needs to be new technology that makes controlling invasive species just much more efficient. And there are people working on it.

那么他们正在研发哪些新技术呢？

Well, what are some of those new technologies that they're working on?

举个例子，使用人工智能的陷阱。它们装有摄像头能识别进入的动物种类，只有目标动物才会触发陷阱。这些陷阱还能自动重置以待下次使用，无需人工操作。新西兰还在研究更前沿的技术，比如利用基因研究来针对性对付动物。这可能意味着开发只对特定动物有效的毒药，或者通过基因改造干扰入侵物种的繁殖能力。

So one example is traps that use artificial intelligence. So they have cameras that can see what kind of animal is going inside, and then the trap only goes off if it's the right animal. Those traps also reset themselves to go off again, so it doesn't require a person to do that. And there are more cutting edge ideas that New Zealand is also researching, and one is to use genetic research to target animals. So that could mean creating poisons that only work on one animal, or there are these ideas to genetically modify invasive species in a way that interferes with how they reproduce.

就像通过基因改造让它们只产生雄性后代。这样随着时间的推移只剩雄性个体，种群就会慢慢消亡。

So it's like you change their genes in a way that means they only have male offspring. And then if there's only males over time, that population slowly dies out.

基因改造肯定会引发很多担忧。就像《侏罗纪公园》里说的，生命总会找到出路。这种策略是否存在风险呢？

Well, I mean, genetic modification definitely would come with a lot of concerns. And, you know, going back to Jurassic Park, they say nature finds a way. Are there risks to to doing that strategy?

是的。要知道，这还处于非常早期的阶段，仍在开发中。我接触的每个人都表示，需要展开一场重大的科学辩论和公众讨论来探讨这些风险。但这无疑表明新西兰在这方面处于前沿地位，他们正在思考随着技术进步，保护工作将如何变革。

Yes. And, you know, this is very early. It's still in development. Everyone I spoke to there said there needs to be a really big scientific debate, a public debate about these risks. But it's definitely a sign of how New Zealand is kind of on the forefront of all this and thinking about how conservation could change as the technology gets better.

你知道，在采访了这么多人、走访了这么多地方后，我很好奇——你对这些濒危物种是否产生了希望？还是觉得局面已无法挽回，这些损失将不可逆转？

You know, I'm I'm curious after talking to all these people, going to all these different places, did you come away with a sense of hope for these endangered species? Or is there a sense that this is too far gone and that, you know, it it won't be able to be undone?

生物多样性危机，你知道的，情况并没有好转。气候变化等因素使问题更加恶化，人类需要付出更多努力才能阻止这种下滑。这正是新西兰乃至全世界都面临的重大课题。对吧？比如，我们究竟应该走多远？

The biodiversity crisis, you know, it's not getting better. Things like climate change are making this even worse, and it's just taking a lot more for humans to stop that slide. And that's kind of the big questions in New Zealand that everyone in the world is facing. Right? Like, how far should we go?

我们该做到什么程度？最困难的是，留给我们解决问题的时间正在不断减少。所以，我认为整件事给我的主要感受是——即使他们觉得目标难以实现，但重要的是去尝试。

How much should we do? And the hard part for all of this is just there's this shrinking amount of time to figure it out. So, you know, I think that was the main sense I got away from the whole thing, which is even if they don't think they can get there, the important thing is to try.

这确实是个值得深思和应对的问题。Lauren，感谢你的报道。

Well, that certainly is something to be thinking about and grappling with. Lauren, thank you for this reporting.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

本期节目由Justine Yan制作，Ginny Schmidt编辑。报道内容由NPR气候台提供，Neela Banerjee担任编辑，Kwasee Lee负责母带处理。特别感谢制作人Ryan Kelman。周日故事团队包括Andrew Mambo和我们的高级监制Liana Simstrom。

This episode was produced by Justine Yan and edited by Ginny Schmidt. The reporting for this episode was brought to us by NPR's Climate Desk. Neela Banerjee was the editor, mastering by Kwasee Lee. Special thanks to producer Ryan Kelman. The Sunday story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom.

托马斯·柯川是我们的实习生，伊莲·野口是我们的执行制片人。我是阿伊莎·罗斯科。《晨间速递》明天将为您带来开启一周所需的全部新闻。祝您周末愉快。

Thomas Coltrane is our intern. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

想听无广告插播的播客吗？亚马逊Prime会员可通过Amazon Music收听无广告版的《晨间速递》，您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道，在+.npr.org订阅《晨间速递Plus》会员服务。网址是+.npr.org。

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to Up First sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's Vital Journalism and get Up First Plus at +.npr.org. That's +.npr.org.

大家好，我是达乌德·泰勒·阿明。

Hey. I'm Dawud Tyler Amin.

我是艾姆·鲍尔斯。

And I'm Em Powers.

我们是NPR音乐的编辑和乐评人，同时也是热爱钻研音乐历史、探讨歌曲如何随时间演变的朋友。

We are an editor and a critic at NPR Music, and we're also friends who love digging into music histories and thinking about how songs can change over time.

我们正在一档新节目中做这件事——对那些萦绕心间的歌曲及其原因进行深度剖析。

And we're doing that on a new show. We're totally nerding out about the songs that just stick with us and why.

10月23日，您可以在《All Songs Considered》节目订阅源中找到我们的首期节目。

Find our first episode in the all songs considered feed on October 23.

嘿，我是《等等别告诉我》的执行制作人迈克·丹福斯。现在有个绝佳机会能让你享受NPR制作人的福利却不用干任何活——加入NPR Plus会员。通过NPR Plus，你能获得加长版访谈、最喜爱节目的幕后花絮等特权，在支持NPR的同时永远不必熬夜加班——当然，如果你是新闻节目组的，那就不用早起赶工了。

Hey. It's Mike Danforth, executive producer of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. Here's a great way to get the perks of being an NPR producer without doing any of the work. Join NPR Plus. With NPR Plus, you get extended interviews, inside looks at your favorite shows, and more, all while supporting NPR and never having to pull an all nighter, or if you work on one of the news shows, an all morninger.

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