政府停摆现状、最高法院关税辩论、芝加哥移民执法裁决

马丁内斯。拉法德尔。勒拉法德尔。勒拉法德尔。法德尔。

Martinez. La fadle. Le la fadle. Le la fadle. Fadle.

拉法德尔。

La fadle.

你现在每天早上都要这样吗？

Are you gonna do that every morning now?

特朗普总统表示，政府停摆僵局影响了共和党在周二选举中的表现。

President Trump says the shutdown standoff hurt Republicans in Tuesday's elections.

如果你看过民调数据，政府停摆对共和党来说是个重大负面因素。

If you read the pollsters, the shutdown was a big factor negative for the Republicans.

民主党人表示，这些结果表明选民不希望他们让步。

Democrats say those results show voters don't want them to back down.

我是艾米·马丁内斯。这位是莱拉·法德尔，这里是NPR新闻的头条。一项已有数十年历史的法律赋予总统监管进口商品的权力，但他是否有权对其征税？就连保守派的最高法院大法官都在质疑特朗普征收关税的权限，这是他经济议程的关键部分。

I'm Amy Martinez. That's Leila Faddle, and this is up first from NPR News. A decades old law gives the president the power to regulate imports, but does he have the right to tax them? Even conservative supreme court justices are questioning Trump's authority to impose tariffs, a key piece of his economic agenda.

芝加哥目前在法庭上成功对抗了政府针对该市的移民打压政策。联邦法官下令改善拘留中心条件并限制武力使用。请继续关注，我们将为您带来每日所需新闻。

And Chicago is winning so far in court battles against the administration's immigration crackdown in the city. A federal judge ordered cleaner detention centers and limits on the use of force. Stay with us. We'll give you the news you need to your day.

在NPR的《ThruLine》播客中，讲述那些支撑互联网运行的海底电缆的故事。

On the ThruLine Podcast from NPR, the story of the undersea cables that run the Internet.

其他历史学家将其比作登月阿波罗计划般的壮举。

Other historians have compared it to the Apollo missions of going to the moon.

请在NPR应用或您常用的播客平台收听《Throughline》。

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

在NPR《Throughline》播客中，了解波斯尼亚种族灭绝幸存者如何获得法庭审判的机会。

On the Throughline podcast from NPR, how survivors of the Bosnian genocide got their day in court.

要如何找到数千名受害者并确认他们的身份和遭遇？

How do you even go about finding thousands of victims and establishing who they were and what happened to them?

请在NPR应用或您常用的播客平台收听《Throughline》。

Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

嘿，我是《汽车闲谈》的雷。厌倦了NPR节目里那些深度思考和精心制作的内容吗？想来点老式的胡闹和摸索解决问题的方式吗？我又开始偶尔回答汽车问题了。

Hey. It's Ray from Car Talk. Are you tired of all the depth and thoughtful care that goes into NPR shows? Want some good old fashioned goofing around and stumbling to figure out what's going on? Well, I've been taking occasional car questions again.

你可以通过订阅NPR Plus来收听这些内容，还有很多其他额外内容。只需访问+.npr.org。

You can hear them by signing up for NPR Plus along with lots of other bonus content. Just go to +.npr.org.

这是政府停摆的第37天，创下了历史最长纪录。

This is day 37 of a now record long government shutdown.

是的。本周早些时候，一些民主党人表示他们正在寻找出路，因为美国人正承受着强制休假、旅行延误和SNAP福利停发的痛苦。但周二民主党在选举中的胜利让许多人更有底气坚持立场，而特朗普总统也承认停摆对共和党选举之夜造成了伤害。

Yeah. And earlier this week, some Democrats suggested they were searching for a way out as Americans felt the intense pain of furloughs, travel delays, and unpaid SNAP benefits. But Democratic victories at the ballot box on Tuesday have emboldened many to hold firm as president Trump acknowledges that the shutdown hurt Republicans on election night.

NPR国会记者山姆·格林格拉斯在现场。那么，山姆，我们先从白宫的角度开始。你刚才听到莱拉谈到特朗普承认停摆伤害了他的党派选民。他昨天还与参议院共和党人共进早餐。

NPR congressional reporter Sam Greenglass is here. So alright, Sam. Let's start with, the view from the White House. You just heard Leyla talk about how Trump acknowledges that the shutdown hurt his party with voters. And he met with senate Republicans for breakfast yesterday.

他传达了什么样的信息？他对他们说了什么？

What was his message? What did he say to him?

总统告诉参议院共和党人有很多事情需要讨论，包括该党应该如何应对选举之夜的失利。

President told Senate Republicans there was a lot to discuss, including what the party should do about their losses on election night.

关于政府停摆，以及它与昨晚事件的关联。如果你看过民调数据，这次停摆对共和党造成了显著的负面影响。

And also about the shutdown, how that relates to last night. I think if you read the pollsters, the shutdown was a big factor negative for the Republicans.

特朗普一直敦促共和党通过废除参议院阻挠议事规则来结束停摆，这将降低通过法案所需的票数。国会共和党人大体上顺应了特朗普的意愿，但南达科他州参议员迈克·朗兹表示，废除阻挠议事规则根本不可能实现。

Trump has been urging Republicans to end the shutdown by eliminating the senate filibuster that would lower the votes needed to pass bills. Congressional Republicans, you know, have mostly gone along with Trump's wishes, but senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota says getting rid of the filibuster is just not gonna happen.

参议院的设计初衷本应是达成共识、做出经得起时间考验的决策之地。若将其简单变成众议院的缩小版，绝非我们任何人真正所愿。

The senate was designed to really be a place where consensus is brought about to making decisions that could stand the test of time. Simply going to make the senate a mini version of the house is not what any of us really want to do.

共和党对废除阻挠议事规则犹豫不决还有另一个原因——他们想保留这一机制以防自己沦为少数党。

And there's another reason Republicans are hesitant to ditch the filibuster. They wanna keep it in case they end up in the minority.

好的。既然大多数共和党人都对特朗普总统废除阻挠议事规则的意愿说不，那我们是否看到了其他解决方案的苗头？

Alright. So if most Republicans then then are saying no to president Trump's desire to bust the filibuster, I mean, are we seeing a different solution emerge?

目前双方立场都很强硬。但本周两党间的谈判似乎有所进展，可能包括一项延续至12月的短期拨款措施，以及对一小部分常规拨款法案的投票。佐治亚州民主党参议员约翰·奥索夫参与了这些谈判，我询问他是否会接受除保留即将到期的奥巴马医改补贴协议外的其他方案——这个问题正是本次停摆争议的核心。

So both sides have been pretty dug in here. But this week, some bipartisan talks did seem to pick up steam, possibly a short term funding measure into December along with votes on a small package of regular appropriations bills. Democratic senator John Ossoff of Georgia has been involved in those talks, and I asked whether he'd accept anything short of a deal to preserve expiring Obamacare subsidies. That's an issue that's been at the heart of this shutdown debate.

对话仍在继续。人们能展开沟通是好事。当前迫切需要防止医疗费用暴涨，并让政府恢复运转。

Conversations are ongoing. It's good that people are talking. There's real urgency to prevent this huge spike in health care costs and to reopen the government.

共和党需要八名民主党人签署协议以重启政府运作，共和党人表示随着停摆痛苦加剧，这一目标将更易实现。

Republicans would need eight Democrats to sign on to a deal to reopen the government, and Republicans have said that would become more doable as the shutdown pain got worse.

那么选举结果对此有何影响？

So how do the election results affect all that?

民主党内部一直存在一个阵营，他们坚持任何协议都必须包含对奥巴马医改补贴的硬性延期条款。其中许多人认为周二的选举表现验证了这一立场。佛蒙特州参议员伯尼·桑德斯表示，他不仅需要参议院就延长补贴进行投票，还需确保该措施能在众议院通过并由特朗普签署成为法律。

Well, there has always been a camp of Democrats who say any deal has to include an ironclad extension of those Obamacare subsidies. And many of them think their performance on Tuesday validates that position. Vermont senator Bernie Sanders says he needs not just a senate vote on extending the subsidies, but also assurance that the measure would pass in the house and that Trump would sign it into law.

如果只是进行一场毫无结果的模糊投票，我认为我们必须继续抗争。

If you simply had a nebulous vote that wasn't gonna go any place, I think we gotta continue to fight.

周二时，参议院少数党领袖查克·舒默对可接受条件的表述较为含糊。到了周三，他的表态听起来像是民主党团不会让步。

On Tuesday, senate minority leader Chuck Schumer was kind of vague about what he could live with. On Wednesday, he made it sound like his caucus was not going to relent.

选举结果并不模糊，也不含糊。它们如同闪电般清晰。

The election results were not vague. They were not unclear. They were a lightning bolt.

那么萨姆，现在情况到底如何？

So, Sam, where does this leave things?

舒默和众议院少数党领袖哈基姆·杰弗里斯呼吁周日与特朗普在空军一号上会面。我询问特朗普是否正与民主党人谈判，但他坚称需要让步的是对方。问题是，周二会改变这一局面吗？还是这场停摆将持续到第六周？

Schumer and house minority leader Hakim Jeffries are calling for a meeting with Trump on Air Force One on Sunday. I asked Trump whether he was in negotiating with Democrats, but he reiterated that they were the ones who needed to back down. The question is, will Tuesday change that calculus, or will this shutdown stretch into a sixth week?

这是NPR国会记者山姆·格林利夫的报道。谢谢，山姆。

That's NPR congressional reporter Sam Greenleaf. Thanks, Sam.

谢谢。

Thank you.

最高法院尚未在特朗普第二任期内作出反对他的重大裁决。

The supreme court has not yet issued a major ruling against president Trump in his second term.

他们昨天就特朗普关税案听取了辩论。我们尚不清楚判决内容，但大法官们（包括保守派）昨天的提问对特朗普的立场提出了质疑。

They heard arguments yesterday in a case about Trump's tariffs. We don't know yet what the opinion will say, but the justices questions yesterday, including from conservatives, were skeptical of Trump's positions.

NPR白宫记者丹妮尔·库尔茨莱本当时在场旁听。早上好，丹妮尔。

NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben was listening. Good morning, Danielle.

早上好。好的，先帮我们回顾一下——这些辩论是关于什么的？主要是关于特朗普实施你提到的那些关税所依据的法律。

Good morning. Okay. So just recap for us. What were these arguments about? Well, they were about the law that Trump used to impose those tariffs you mentioned.

这是一项1977年颁布的法律，名为《国际紧急经济权力法》（IEPA），它赋予总统在紧急状态下广泛的经济权力。本案中，一些企业和州政府辩称该法律并未授权总统实施此类关税。他们特别指出，IEPA中甚至未提及'关税'一词。那么，政府方在此案中的核心论点是什么？

It's a 1977 law called the International Emergency Economic Powers Act or IEPA, and it gives the president broad economic powers during an emergency. So in this case, you had a group of businesses and states arguing that that law does not give the president the power to impose these tariffs. In fact, they noted that IEPA doesn't even contain the word tariffs. Okay. So what was the administration arguing here?

IEPA中有个关键条款成为辩论焦点。该法规定总统可以'管制进口'。司法部副部长约翰·索尔认为这包含征收关税的权力，因为关税本质上是管制进口的基本手段。但这引发了更大的宪法问题——在管制进口过程中，总统是否有权征税？因为宪法规定征税权属于国会。由此衍生出关于总统权限范围的诸多争议。

Well, there's a key phrase in IEPA that was central to the arguments. That law says a president can, quote, regulate imports. Solicitor general John Sour said that allows a president to tariff because, he argued, tariffs are simply a basic way to regulate imports. But that connected then to a bigger constitutional question, whether in the process of regulating imports, the president is allowed to tax because the constitution gives congress the power to raise revenue. And this led to a lot of questions about what the president can and can't do.

卡瓦诺大法官曾表示，他认为国会无意制造所谓的'甜甜圈漏洞'——即允许总统通过全面禁运等手段管制进口，却连最低限度关税都无权征收。接下来我们将听到他与挑战关税政策的律师本杰明·古特曼的对话。

Justice Kavanaugh at one point suggested that he didn't think that congress intended to create what he called a donut hole. That is he didn't think they meant to allow a president to regulate imports using, say, sweeping embargoes, but not to impose even a minimal tariff. And here, we're gonna hear him talking to Benjamin Gutman, one of the lawyers challenging the tariffs.

这听起来不太合理，但我想听听你的解释。

That doesn't seem, but I wanna get your answer, to have a lot of common sense behind it.

我认为完全合理，因为这是性质完全不同的权力。这不是什么甜甜圈漏洞，而是另一种糕点。

I I think it absolutely does because it's a fundamentally different power. It's it's not a doughnut hole. It's a it's a different kind of pastry.

法庭上因此爆发笑声，连卡瓦诺也不禁莞尔。但古特曼的核心论点是：法律赋予总统的是不同类型的权力，而关税权并不包含在内。

Well, that got laughter in the courtroom and even got a chuckle out of Kavanaugh. But what Gutman was saying was that this is about types of powers, that the law gives the president broad powers, but that that simply doesn't include tariffs.

所以重点不是糕点对吧？你近距离观察了全程，你觉得大法官们对这些论点持什么态度？

So not about pastries then. Right. What sense did you get? I mean, you watched this a lot more closely than I did of how the justices felt about these arguments.

正如你所说，确实存在一些质疑。自由派大法官显然更倾向于反对关税的论点，但就连一些保守派大法官似乎也对政府的论据持怀疑态度。戈萨奇大法官特别关注国会是否在此将其核心职责之一授权给总统，以及这种做法是否被允许。

Well, as you said, there was some skepticism. The more liberal justices were definitely more open to the arguments against the tariffs, but even some more conservative justices seemed skeptical of the government's arguments. Justice Gorsuch was especially concerned about whether congress was delegating one of its core jobs to the president here and whether that's even allowed.

那么，究竟是什么阻止国会将规范对外贸易的全部责任——甚至包括宣战权——都推给总统呢？我们并不主张他能这样做。如果真这么做了，为何不行？因为我们现在讨论的是一部完整的成文法...我在问这部法律的事。总检察长，我现在问的不是法律条文。

What would prohibit congress from just abdicating all responsibility to regulate foreign commerce, for that matter, declare war to the president? We don't contend that he could do that. If it did Why not? Well, because we're dealing with a statute again that has a whole I'm asking about the statute. General, I'm not asking about the statute.

我在询问你对宪法的理论立场。

I'm asking for your theory of the constitution.

戈萨奇与索尔之间有过几次类似这样的交锋，戈萨奇确实在质疑索尔的论证逻辑。

And there were a few exchanges like that with Gorsuch really poking at Sour's rationale.

如果他们做出不利于总统的裁决会怎样？

And what happens if they decide against the president?

就关税而言，最终影响尚不明确。他实施的多项关税将因此变为非法，但针对钢铁、铝等特定商品征收的关税仍将保留，而且他还可以援引其他法律来加征关税。至于特朗普本人，他称此案是最高法院有史以来最重要的案件。没错，他会很恼火。但更重要的是，我们将看到最高法院真正试图有效约束他的权力。

Well, on tariffs, the ultimate effect is unclear. I mean, a bunch of his tariffs would then be illegal, but other tariffs like the ones he's imposed on particular goods like steel and aluminum, those would remain, and he could use other laws to impose more. Now as for Trump himself, he has called this the most important supreme court case ever. So, yeah, he'd be upset. But also importantly, we would be seeing this court trying to meaningfully rein in his power.

因此我们将静观其变，预计裁决将在七月前出炉。

So we would see what comes of that, and a ruling is expected by July.

感谢NPR的Danielle Kurtzleben。

NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben, thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

芝加哥市民反对特朗普总统强硬的移民政策，他们正通过法律途径起诉政府，目前进展顺利。

Chicagoans opposed to president Donald Trump's aggressive immigration campaign are taking his administration to court and winning so far.

本周，一位联邦法官听取了关于公民与联邦特工冲突事件的数小时证词，同时另一位法官下令政府改善芝加哥郊区一处移民拘留中心的条件。

This week, there's been hours of testimony as one federal judge listened to accounts about citizens jarring encounters with federal agents, and another judge ordered the administration to improve the conditions at an immigration holding facility in a Chicago suburb.

芝加哥公共媒体和《芝加哥太阳时报》的John Seidel一直在跟进报道此事，他现在与我连线。早上好。

John Seidel with Chicago Public Media and the Chicago Sun Times has been covering this and is with me now. Good morning.

早上好。

Good morning.

这些法律诉讼已持续一个多月，目前芝加哥市在哪些方面取得了胜利？

So these legal fights have been going on for over a month. In what ways has the city prevailed?

上个月，芝加哥的一位联邦法官驳回了特朗普在此部署国民警卫队的努力。另一名法官则限制了联邦探员对抗议者使用武力，并要求一名高级官员接受长时间的取证。现在那位法官莎拉·埃利斯正准备就所谓的初步禁令作出裁决，这实质上将延长她上个月颁布的关于规范探员在此使用武力的命令。

Well, last month, a federal judge in Chicago ruled against Trump's efforts to deploy national guard troops here. And another judge limited federal agents' use of force against protesters and required a senior official to actually sit for a lengthy deposition. And now that judge, Sarah Ellis, is preparing to rule on what's called a preliminary injunction. It would basically extend the order she issued last month that governs agents use of force here.

当埃利斯法官昨天举行听证会以作出裁决时，证词内容如何？

When judge Ellis held a hearing yesterday in order to make that decision, what was the testimony like?

是的。她在周三进行了长达八小时的听证会。她听取了一名女性的证词，该女性表示自己仅仅因为拍摄日工被捕过程就被枪口对准。法官还听取了一名牧师的陈述，他说自己在拘留设施外祈祷时被胡椒弹击中头部。此外，法官还观看了美国边境巡逻队指挥官格雷格·博维诺的视频证词，他已成为这次行动的代表人物。

Yeah. She presented over an eight hour hearing Wednesday. She heard from a woman who said she found herself staring down the barrel of a gun just for filming the arrest of day laborers. The judge heard from a pastor who said he was shot in the head by pepper balls while praying outside a holding facility. And the judge heard the video testimony of US border patrol commander Greg Bovino, who's become the public face of this campaign.

他表示此处的武力使用'堪称典范'。而埃利斯法官表示计划于今日宣布裁决。

He said the use of force here has been, quote, more than exemplary. And now judge Ellis says she plans to hand down her ruling today.

哦，请多说说博维诺的情况。

Oh, tell us more about Bovino.

博维诺从加州调任至此，此前他负责大规模行动。这导致最高法院作出极具争议的裁决，允许该行动中的探员继续基于种族和语言等因素拦截人员。上月博维诺被指控无正当理由向芝加哥小村庄社区的群众投掷催泪瓦斯。联邦当局称他是在遭遇敌对暴徒时采取的行动，甚至表示他的头部曾被石块击中。

Bovino came here from California where he led operation at large. That led to a very controversial ruling by the Supreme Court, which allowed agents in that operation to continue stopping people based on factors like race and language. Bovino was accused last month of throwing tear gas into a crowd in Chicago's Little Village neighborhood without justification. Federal authorities say he did so while being confronted by a hostile mob. They even said he'd been hit in the head with a rock.

但律师们昨天告诉埃利斯法官，博维诺最终承认他在遭遇石块袭击前就投掷了催泪瓦斯。博维诺的证词是私下进行的，我们正等待看有多少内容会被公开。

But attorneys told judge Ellis yesterday that Bovino finally admitted he threw the tear gas before the rock entered the picture. Bovino's deposition was conducted privately, and we're waiting to see how much of it becomes public.

我们刚才提到了关于移民拘留设施的裁决。那里现在是什么情况？

Now we mentioned the ruling about an immigration facility. What is happening in that one?

没错。罗伯特·盖特尔曼法官周二主持了类似的听证会。听证会聚焦于布罗德维尤郊区这个拘留中心内的环境条件。大多数被移民局逮捕的人都会被关押在这里至少短暂停留。直到今年夏天前，该设施本不用于长期关押，但盖特尔曼法官获悉现在有人被关押数日之久，每个牢房关押100至150人。

That's right. Judge Robert Gettleman presided over a similar hearing Tuesday. That one revolved around the conditions inside this holding center in suburban Broadview. It's where most people arrested by immigration agents find themselves being held at least for a short while. Until this summer, the facility hadn't been intended as a long term holding center, but Gettleman heard that people are being held there for days at a time, 100 to a 150 people to a cell.

据他了解，这些人经常只能睡在地板上，许多人睡在肮脏的厕所旁边。尽管这里长期被视为拘留或处理中心，但盖特尔曼法官表示这里更像监狱。周三，他下令必须为所有被关押者提供清洁寝具和垫子，每个拘留室每天至少清洁两次，并确保每人获得充足的肥皂、毛巾、卫生纸等卫生用品供应。

They often have nowhere to sleep but the floor, he was told, and many are sleeping near a dirty toilet. Though it's long been considered a detention or processing center, judge Gettleman said it seems more like a prison. And Wednesday, he ordered that people held there should all be given clean bedding in a mat, that each holding room should be cleaned at least twice a day, and that everyone should be given adequate supplies of soap, towels, toilet paper, and other hygiene products.

我是芝加哥公共媒体和《芝加哥太阳时报》的约翰·塞德尔。约翰，感谢你的报道。

John Seidel with Chicago Public Media and the Chicago Sun Times. John, thank you for your reporting.

不客气。

You're welcome.

这是11月6日周四的早间新闻。我是莱拉·福尔丁。

And that's a first for Thursday, November 6. I'm Leila Fauldin.

我是A·马丁内斯。如果你喜欢每天从《晨间速递》开始新的一天——我知道你们确实如此——请考虑向当地NPR电台捐款。您的捐助能支持记者深入社区报道，巩固NPR网络。请访问donate.npr.org/upfirst进行捐赠。

And I'm A Martinez. If you enjoy starting your day with Up First, and I know that you do, please consider donating to your local NPR station. When you give to your local NPR station, you help keep journalists on the ground in your community. Keep the NPR network strong. Visit donate.npr.org/up first to contribute.

更多新闻与对话，请收听我们的广播节目《晨间版》。您可以在当地NPR电台或npr.org上找到。

And for more news and conversations, listen to our radio show, Morning Edition. You can find it on your local NPR station or at npr.org.

或者在您的应用上收听。

Or on your app.

本期《Up First》节目由Jason Breslow、Christian Dov Kalamar、Cheryl Corley、Mohammed Al Bardisi和Alice Wolffley编辑，由Ziyad Butch、Nia Dumas和Christopher Thomas制作。工程支持由Stacy Abbott提供，技术总监是David Greenberg。明天再见。

Today's episode of Up First was edited by Jason Breslow, Christian Dov Kalamar, Cheryl Corley, Mohammed Al Bardisi, and Alice Wolffley. It was produced by Ziyad Butch, Nia Dumas, and Christopher Thomas. We get engineering support from Stacy Abbott, and our technical director is David Greenberg. Join us again tomorrow.

嗨，我是Dawud Tyler Amin。

Hey. I'm Dawud Tyler Amin.

我是Em Powers。

And I'm Em Powers.

我们是NPR音乐的编辑和乐评人，同时也是热爱挖掘音乐历史、思考歌曲如何随时间演变的朋友。

We are an editor and a critic at NPR Music, and we're also friends who love digging into music histories and thinking about how songs can change over time.

我们将在新节目中做这件事——完全沉迷于那些萦绕心头的歌曲及其原因。

And we're doing that on a new show. We're totally nerding out about the songs that just stick with us and why.

10月23日，请在所有歌曲相关的播客中查找我们的首期节目。

Find our first episode in the all songs considered feed on October 23.

我们总在讨论政府运作不良，但当它运转良好时呢？我得说，我第一次在线更新护照的经历简直棒极了。

We talk about how the government isn't working, but what about when it does? I have to say I renewed my passport for the first time online, and it was awesome.

听到这个消息我真的很高兴。

I am so glad to hear that.

关于通过优化系统运作来重建民主信任的思考。请在NPR应用或你常用的播客平台收听《Ted Brady一小时》。

Ideas about restoring trust in democracy by making systems just work better. Listen to the Ted Brady Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

本周的《我们喜爱的书籍》栏目中，我们将跟随《晨间新闻》的Michelle Martin一起走进开阔牧场，解析Charles Portis的经典之作《大地惊雷》。请在NPR的每日书单播客或你常用的播客平台收听。

On this week's books we've loved, we're headed to the open range with Morning Edition's Michelle Martin to break down Charles Portis' classic true grit. Find books we've loved in NPR's book of the day podcast feed on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.