美国在委内瑞拉，委内瑞拉的未来，马杜罗现身纽约法庭

特朗普总统宣称美国掌控委内瑞拉。

President Trump declares The United States he is in charge of Venezuela.

特朗普还警告委内瑞拉的新领导层必须服从。

Trump also warned Venezuela's new leadership to fall in line.

如果他们不听话，我们将实施第二次打击。

If they don't behave, we will do a second strike.

白宫计划在没有地面部队的情况下如何管理这个国家？

How does the White House plan to run the country without troops on on the ground?

我是史蒂夫·恩斯凯普，与A·马丁内斯一起，这里是NPR新闻的《今日要闻》。

I'm Steve Enscape with A Martinez, and this is Up First from NPR News.

在对美国发表挑衅言论后，委内瑞拉的代理领导人现在开始屈服于美国的威胁。

After making defiant remarks against The United States, Venezuela's acting leader is now bowing to US threats.

尼古拉斯·马杜罗的前副总统德尔·C·罗德里格斯发出合作邀请。

Nicolas Maduro's former vice president, Del C Rodriguez, is extending an invitation of cooperation.

她究竟愿意走多远？

How far is she actually willing to go?

马杜罗今天将在纽约出庭。

And Maduro is due in a New York courtroom today.

他面临毒品、武器和毒品恐怖主义指控。

He's facing drug, weapon, and narcoterrorism charges.

美国是否有权审判在海外被俘的外国领导人？

Can The US legally try a foreign leader seized overseas?

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

我们为您带来开启一天所需的全部新闻。

We've got all the news you need to start your day.

周日，特朗普总统在空军一号上接受记者提问，被问及谁在掌控委内瑞拉。

Speaking to reporters on Air Force One on Sunday, president Trump was asked who's in charge of Venezuela.

别问我谁在掌控，因为我会给出答案，而那会非常有争议。

Don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer, and it'll be very controversial.

这意味什么？

What does that mean?

这意味着我们说了算。

It means we're in charge.

好的。

Okay.

我们还是不明白这是什么意思。

We still don't know what that means.

今天，联邦当局将总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗带入美国法庭。

Federal authorities bring president Nicolas Maduro into court in The United States today.

美国此前一直维持委内瑞拉政府的现状，期望它能服从命令。

The US has otherwise left the Venezuelan government in place expecting it to obey orders.

更多内容，我们连线国家安全记者格雷格·迈尔。

For more, we're joined by national security correspondent Greg Myrie.

那么，格雷格，特朗普总统掌管委内瑞拉意味着什么？

So, Greg, what does it mean for president Trump to be in charge of Venezuela?

嗯，这一点绝对不明确。

Well, a it's absolutely not clear.

美军在周六黎明前迅速进入委内瑞拉，俘虏了马杜罗，不到三小时便撤离了该国。

The US forces that seized Maduro dashed in and out of the country in less than three hours before dawn on Saturday morning.

目前没有美国军队驻扎在那里。

There are no US troops there now.

此外，美国驻委内瑞拉大使馆早在2019年就已关闭，因此没有美国外交存在。

Also, the US embassy in Venezuela was shut down back in 2019, so there's no US diplomatic presence.

大量的美国军事力量仍驻扎在附近。

The large US military contingent is still nearby.

许多部队部署在加勒比海的舰船上，特朗普表示，如果他认为有必要，他已准备好采取进一步军事行动。

Many are on ships in The Caribbean, and Trump says he's prepared for further military action if he feels it's needed.

但总统似乎并不希望进行一场全面、无休止的美军占领。

But the president doesn't appear to want a full scale open ended US military occupation.

因此，如果特朗普及其团队只是试图从远处控制局势，他们的影响力可能会有限。

So if Trump and his team are simply trying to run the place from afar, they may have limited influence.

昨天，国务卿马可·卢比奥上了很多电视节目。

Now secretary of state Marco Rubio was on a lot of TV yesterday.

他是如何阐述政府计划采取的行动的？

How did he frame what the administration plans to do?

嗯，他的说法与特朗普略有不同。

Well, a little bit differently than Trump.

鲁比奥表示，美国的目标是塑造委内瑞拉的政策。

Rubio said The US goal is to shape policies in Venezuela.

美国将评估该国政府采取的措施。

The US would be assessing what steps the government there takes.

他提到了诸如遏制毒品贩运和移民等问题，近年来已有数百万人逃离该国，其中许多人前往美国。

He cited issues like stopping drug trafficking and migration in a country where millions have fled in recent years, many heading to The US.

他还指出，美国仍在阻止被列入美国制裁名单的油轮进出委内瑞拉，这使美国对该国最重要的资源拥有巨大影响力。

Now he noted The US is still blocking oil tankers on a US sanctions list from coming to or leaving from Venezuela, and this gives The US huge leverage over the country's most valuable resource.

特朗普还希望美国石油公司投资数十亿美元升级该国石油工业，但我们还需观察这些石油公司是否愿意在如此不确定的局势下进入该国并做出重大承诺。

Trump also wants US oil companies to make billion dollar investments to upgrade that oil industry, but we'll have to see how eager these oil companies might be to go into a country and make a big commitment when it the place is in such an uncertain state.

阿德塞·罗德里格斯曾是委内瑞拉的副总统。

Adelce Rodriguez was Venezuela's vice president.

她现在已成为临时总统。

She's now become the interim president.

那么她在这整个局势中扮演什么角色？

So how does she fit into all this?

是的。

Yeah.

特朗普似乎在设定他将如何与她以及委内瑞拉留任政府合作的条件。

So Trump seems to be setting the terms of how he'll cooperate with her and and the government that sort of left in place in in Venezuela.

特朗普周日接受了《大西洋》杂志的采访。

Trump gave an interview to the Atlantic magazine on Sunday.

谈到罗德里格斯，他说：‘如果她不做正确的事，她将付出非常大的代价，可能比马杜罗还大。’

And speaking of Rodriguez, he said, quote, if she doesn't do what's right, she's going to pay a very big price, probably bigger than Maduro.

在空军一号上接受记者提问时，特朗普再次威胁要对委内瑞拉采取更多军事行动。

And speaking to reporters on Air Force One, Trump repeated his threat of more military action in Venezuela.

如果他们不听话，我们将发动第二次打击。

If they don't behave, we will do a second strike.

这听起来可能有点难以接受。

That may be a bit hard to hear.

他说，如果他们不听话，我们就将发动第二次打击。

He's saying if they don't behave, we will do a second strike.

马杜罗的高级助手、他的亲信以及军方和安全部队仍然在位，他们可能根本不会采纳特朗普希望看到的政策。

And Maduro's top aides, his loyalists, and the military and security forces remain in place, and they simply may not adopt the policies that Trump would like to see.

长期以来，特朗普一直反对卷入外国纷争，尤其是长期存在的纷争。

Now Trump has long been opposed to getting involved in foreign entanglements, especially long standing ones.

那么，这与他过去的说法如何相符呢？

So how does all that fit into what he has said in the past?

这与特朗普多年来一贯的立场——不参与外国战争——完全相悖。

So this is very much at odds with one of Trump's more consistent positions over the years, no foreign wars.

但他现在却在谈论自己对门罗主义的更新版本，这一主义最初由总统詹姆斯·门罗在两百年前提出。

But now he's talking about his own updated version of the Monroe Doctrine first stated by president James Monroe two hundred years ago.

不同总统对它的解读各不相同，但它逐渐意味着美国应在本半球发挥主导作用。

It's been interpreted variously by different presidents, but it's come to mean The US should play the dominant role in this hemisphere.

我们还应注意到一些更近的历史，当时美国曾推翻或协助推翻了几个产油国的臭名昭著的领导人，比如伊拉克的萨达姆·侯赛因和利比亚的穆阿迈尔·卡扎菲。

We should also note some more recent history when The US has ousted or helped oust notorious leaders of oil rich countries, Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Muammar Gaddafi in Libya.

在这两种情况下，美国都以为石油会促使这些国家迅速重建，但随后却陷入了混乱。

In both cases, The US believed oil would lead to a swift rebuilding of those countries, but what followed was chaos.

这是NPR的格雷格·迈尔。

It's NPR's Greg Myrie.

格雷格，谢谢。

Greg, thanks.

正如美国官员所描述的那样，针对委内瑞拉的方案是一种老式的殖民模式。

Sure thing, As described by US officials, the concept for Venezuela is an old style colonial model.

美国并不打算建立一个新的政府。

The United States does not propose to install a new government.

事实上，它已经摒弃了美国自己声称赢得2024年选举的反对派候选人。

In fact, it has brushed aside the opposition candidate that The United States itself says won the twenty twenty four election.

诺贝尔奖得主玛丽亚·卡里娜·马查多也被排除在外。

Maria Carina Machado, the recipient of the Nobel Prize, is also left out.

相反，美国提议向当前的社会主义政府发号施令，针对美国关心的任何问题。

Instead, The US proposes to give orders to the current socialist government on whatever issues The US cares about.

NPR的卡丽·汗正在哥伦比亚。

NPR's Carrie Khan is in Colombia.

所以，卡丽，迪尔西·罗德里格斯，尼古拉斯·马杜罗的副总统，她现在

So, Carrie, Delcy Rodriguez, Nicolas Maduro's vice president, she's

是临时总统。

now the interim president.

她会听从美国的命令吗？

Is she gonna take orders from The US?

在特朗普总统威胁要给她比马杜罗更糟糕的下场后，她至少似乎改变了语气。

She at least seems to have changed her tone after president Trump threatened her with a worse faith than Maduro.

你听到了吗？

You heard that.

在昨天晚些时候发布的声明中，罗德里格斯直接向特朗普总统发表了讲话。

In her statement out late yesterday, Rodriguez addressed president Trump directly.

她说，我们的人民、我们的地区需要和平与对话，而不是战争，她愿意合作。

She said our people, our region deserve peace and dialogue, not war, and she's willing to cooperate.

这与她周六那番极具对抗性的表态形成了鲜明对比，当时她称美国的行动是野蛮行为，并要求马杜罗复职。

That's just quite a swift turnaround from her very defiant show Saturday calling The US action a barbarity and demanding Maduro's return.

正如你所说，她现在被称为委内瑞拉的领导人，这一点也很明确。

It's also clear that, as you said, she is now called Venezuela's leader.

她于周六宣誓就职。

She was sworn into office Saturday.

或者按照委内瑞拉国家媒体的说法，她是被政权忠派的最高法院命令接任总统职务的。

Or as the state media in Venezuela is calling it, she was ordered to assume the presidency, and that was by the regime's loyalist supreme court.

现在，卡莉，你已经与反对派领导人玛丽亚·科琳娜·马查多交谈过了，她曾得到美国的支持。

Now, Carrie, you've talked with, Maria Corinna Machado, the opposition leader, who used to have The United States' support.

美国现在是否承认委内瑞拉社会主义政府的合法性？

Is The US accepting the socialist government in Venezuela as legitimate now?

国务卿马可·卢比奥昨天在接受媒体采访时被问到了这个问题。

Secretary of state Marco Rubio was asked that on his media appearances yesterday.

他直接回避了关于合法性的质疑，表示目前美国只能与仍留在委内瑞拉的人合作，因为主要反对派人士都不在本国。

He just brushed off legitimacy questions and said, for now, The US just has to work with those still in Venezuela since leading opponents aren't in the country.

鲁比奥表示，他确信那些仍留在委内瑞拉、掌管警察等事务的人，在目睹军队推翻马杜罗后，会遵从美国的要求。

And Rubio said he's sure that those that are still there will follow US demands after watching the military remove Maduro.

以下是鲁比奥在NBC《与媒体见面》节目中的发言。

Here's Rubio on NBC's Meet the Press.

这件事必须做，而且已经做了。

It had to be done, and it's been done.

我向你们保证，现在留在委内瑞拉、负责警察等事务的人，由于这一事件，他们将会比马杜罗顺从得多。

And I assure you, the people left behind in Venezuela now that are in charge of the police and everything else, I assure you, they're gonna probably be a lot more compliant than than Maduro was as a result of this.

此外，我们还听到了一些关于周六美国入侵行动的有趣细节。

And, a, we also heard some more details about Saturday's US invasion that were interesting.

古巴政府宣布，有32名古巴公民（包括军事人员）在美国行动期间丧生，当时他们正在与美军正面交战。

The Cuban government announced that 32 of its citizens, including military personnel, were killed during The US operation, and they were actively engaging, US forces.

长期以来，人们一直认为古巴作为亲密且至关重要的盟友，一直在派遣士兵、情报人员，甚至为马杜罗提供安全保障。

It's been long believed that Cuba, close and vital allies, was sending soldiers and intelligence agents and even, providing security for Maduro.

所以昨天这一幕令人震惊。

So that was stunning yesterday.

卡莉，给我们讲讲德尔西·罗德里格斯的一些情况。

Carrie, tell us a little bit more about Delsi Rodriguez.

当然。

Sure.

她担任副总统已经超过七年了。

She's been the vice president for more than seven years.

她因在经历动荡和多年恶性通货膨胀后稳定了经济而受到赞誉。

She's credited with stabilizing the economy after just turmoil and years of hyperinflation.

她主要有两个职责，其中之一是监管石油产业。

She has two main roles, and one has been overseeing the oil industry.

她还监管着该政权令人畏惧的情报机构，因此与军方关系良好。

She also oversees the regime's greatly feared intelligence service, so she has good relations with the military.

她的哥哥是国民议会主席，因此她绝对是这个长期强硬派背景的核心人物。

Her brother is the head of the national assembly, so she's definitely an insider with this long hardline resume.

目前还不清楚，当她被视为协助美国政府时，这些关系还能维持多久。

It's unclear how those relationships are gonna hold up, when she's seen to be helping the US government.

现在才过去几天，委内瑞拉人是如何应对这一切的呢？

Now it's only been a few days, but how are Venezuelans dealing with all this?

一些商店里仍然排起了长队，人们在抢购囤货。

There are still long lines being formed in some stores, stocking up.

政府昨天举行了一场支持马杜罗的集会。

The government held a rally in support of Maduro yesterday.

集会确实占满了几个街区。

It did fill a few blocks.

这是64岁的罗多尔福·拉米雷斯。

Here's 64 year old Rodolfo Ramirez.

他是一名高中教师。

He's a high school teacher.

他说他来这里是想告诉特朗普，委内瑞拉人会保卫自己的国家。

He said he came out to tell Trump Venezuelans will defend their country.

特朗普别来这儿抢我们。

Trump don't come here and rob us.

他说道：别再做白日梦了。

Get your head out of the clouds, he said.

他还警告说，如果特朗普想夺取委内瑞拉的石油，就得先杀了我们所有人。

And he warned that if Trump comes for Venezuela's oil, he'll have to kill us all.

他说，一滴油都不会给他们。

He said he's not getting a single drop.

而昨晚另一则消息是，普遍被认为赢得了2024年总统大选的曼多·冈萨雷斯。

And in another development last night, the man widely believed to have won the last presidential election in 2024 at Mundo Gonzalez.

他发布了一段视频，自称总统，并要求释放委内瑞拉所有政治犯。

He put out a video calling himself the president and demanding the release of all political prisoners in Venezuela.

这是NPR的卡莉·汗从哥伦比亚发来的报道。

That's NPR's Carrie Khan in Colombia.

卡莉，谢谢。

Carrie, thanks.

不客气。

You're welcome.

尼古拉斯·马杜罗和他的妻子塞莉亚·弗洛雷斯正在布鲁克林的一所监狱里开始他们的一天。

Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, are starting their day in a Brooklyn jail.

他们中午的出庭将面对贩毒和其他指控。

Their midday court appearance is to be on drug trafficking and other charges.

他们在周末于委内瑞拉首都被捕，这引发了人们对美国法律管辖范围的疑问。

Their arrest over the weekend in the middle of Venezuela's capital raises questions about the reach of American law.

以下是NPR司法事务记者卡莉·约翰逊。

Here's NPR justice correspondent Carrie Johnson.

那么，卡莉，针对马杜罗及其家人的指控是什么？

So, Carrie, what are the allegations against, Maduro and his family?

纽约的一次大陪审团早在2020年就首次对马杜罗提出起诉，最近，另一批大陪审团又增加了新的指控和新的被告。

A grand jury in New York first indicted Maduro back in 2020, then a new grand jury there added new charges recently and added new defendants too.

马杜罗面临四项重罪指控，包括毒品恐怖主义阴谋、阴谋进口数吨可卡因，以及持有机关枪和其他破坏性装置。

Maduro faces four felony charges that includes narcoterrorism conspiracy, conspiracy to import tons of cocaine, and possession of machine guns and other destructive devices.

美国执法部门指控马杜罗身处一个庞大阴谋的顶端，通过监督毒品流入美国并协助暴力贩毒集团来中饱私囊。

US law enforcement accuses Maduro of sitting at the top of a vast conspiracy basically to line his pockets by overseeing the flow of drugs into The US and helping violent cartels along the way.

马杜罗的妻子、前委内瑞拉总检察长塞莉亚·弗洛雷斯也面临指控。

Maduro's wife, Celia Flores, a former attorney general of Venezuela, also faces charges.

特朗普政府曾悬赏五千万美元，以获取导致马杜罗被捕的信息，司法部长帕姆·邦迪表示，他们很快将在美国的土地上、在美国法庭上，面对美国司法的全部怒火。

The Trump administration had placed a $50,000,000 reward for information leading to the capture of Maduro, and attorney general Pam Bondi says they will soon face the full wrath of American justice on American soil in American courts.

是的。

Yeah.

让我们来梳理一下这件事的规模，因为这次行动——我的意思是，空、陆、海全方位出击，在午夜深入一个外国首都。

So let let's break down the scale of this whole thing because the operation I mean, air, land, sea, middle of the night inside a foreign capital.

我的意思是，特朗普政府如何为如此非凡的行动辩护？

I mean, how does the Trump administration justify such an extraordinary move?

特朗普政府尚未公布任何详细的法律分析或其他理由来解释这次名为“绝对决心”的行动依据。

The Trump administration have not released any detailed legal analysis or other reasoning to explain the basis for this operation called absolute resolve.

但国务卿马可·卢比奥表示，这是一次执法行动，而非军事入侵。

But secretary of state Marco Rubio says this was a law enforcement action, not a military invasion.

鲁比奥表示，马杜罗已被联邦调查局特工逮捕，并被告知了其权利。

Maduro was arrested by FBI agents and read his rights, Rubio says.

以下是鲁比奥本周在ABC节目《乔治·斯蒂芬诺普洛斯》中发表的更多言论。

Here's more from Rubio on the ABC show this week with George Stephanopoulos.

显然，这并不是一个友好的地区。

Obviously, this was not a friendly territory.

因此，为了逮捕他，我们不得不请求国防部介入此次行动。

So in order to arrest him, we had to ask the Department of War to become involved in this operation.

国防部介入了行动。

The Department of War went in.

他们攻击了所有威胁到执行逮捕任务特工的目标，以及在撤离途中遇到的所有威胁。

They hit, anything that was a threat to the agents that were going in to arrest them, and they hit anything that was a threat on the way out.

这是一次非常有限且精准的行动。

And that was a very limited and targeted operation.

特朗普政府似乎依赖于特朗普第一任期内司法部长比尔·巴尔所撰写的一份有争议的司法部备忘录。

The Trump administration seems to be relying on a controversial justice department memo by Bill Barr, who was attorney general in Trump's first term.

这份备忘录发布于1989年，它为美国执法部门在其他国家进行逮捕铺平了道路，即使这些行动可能违反国际法。

That memo was from 1989, and it paved the way for American law enforcement to make arrests in other countries even if those actions might violate international law.

这份备忘录是在美国逮捕巴拿马领导人曼努埃尔·诺列加并将其送往美国受审的几个月前发布的。

The memo was issued months before The US captured Panamanian leader Manuel Noriega and sent him to The US to face charges.

诺列加进行了反抗，但大部分都失败了，但这场法律斗争持续了多年。

Noriega fought back and mostly lost, but that legal fight took a lot of years.

所以最终，尼古拉斯·马杜罗将在法庭上提出某种论点。

So eventually, Nicolas Maduro is gonna make, an argument, in court.

那会是什么论点呢？

What might that be?

马杜罗可能会主张，即使特朗普政府称他并非通过自由公正的选举上台，他作为委内瑞拉国家元首仍应享有豁免权。

Maduro might argue that he should enjoy immunity as a head of state in Venezuela even though the Trump administration says he was not elected freely and fairly.

马杜罗也可能试图质疑美国如何逮捕他，但法律学者表示，这可能很难成功，因为最高法院已有大量判例表明，一旦被告踏上美国领土，其被捕方式无关紧要。

Maduro also might try to challenge how The US captured him, but legal scholars say that could be difficult because there's a lot of supreme court precedent saying it doesn't matter how a defendant gets onto American soil once they're here.

此外，还有一个更复杂的因素。

And then there's one more complication.

美国法院通常不愿意介入与总统国家安全权力相关的敏感事务。

American courts don't really like to weigh in on sensitive matters related to a president's national security power.

因此，美国法院可能会对马杜罗及其他人的抗议持谨慎态度，这些人称政府在此次行动前未通知国会或获得任何批准。

So US courts could be leery about protests from Maduro and others that the administration failed to notify congress or get any approval before this operation.

NPR司法事务记者卡莉·约翰逊。

NPR justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson.

卡莉，谢谢。

Carrie, thanks.

谢谢。

Thank you.

以上是1月5日星期一的《上头条》节目。

And that's Up First for Monday, January 5.

我是艾米·马丁内斯。

I'm Amy Martinez.

我是史蒂夫·因斯科普。

And I'm Steve Inskeep.

就此而言。

Consider This.

《Up First》为您带来当天的三大新闻，而我们的播客《就此而言》则采取不同的方式，深入探讨一个重大新闻，时长不到十五分钟。

Up First gives you the three big stories of the day, and our podcast, Consider This, takes a different approach diving into a single big story in less than fifteen minutes.

请在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen now on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

今天《Up First》的节目由安德鲁·苏斯曼、塔拉·尼尔、克里尚·德夫·卡拉穆尔、穆罕默德·埃尔·巴尔迪西和梅海洁编辑。

Today's episode of Up First was edited by Andrew Sussman, Tara Neel, Krishan Dev Kalamur, Mohamed El Bardisi, and HJ Mai.

本节目由齐亚德·巴赫、尼亚德·杜马斯和克里斯托弗·托马斯制作。

It was produced by Ziyad Bach, Niyad Dumas, and Christopher Thomas.

我们得到尼莎·海恩斯的工程支持，技术总监是卡莉·斯特兰奇。

We get engineering support from Nisha Haines, and our technical director is Carly Strange.

明天再与我们一同收听。

Join us again tomorrow.