BTC174：比特币是财产、货币，还是两者兼具？与Parker Lewis和Will Cole对谈（比特币播客）

我是个心满意足的投资者。

I'm a very happy camper.

请继续。

Go ahead.

任何公开股票或非我经营企业股权的证券。

Any public equities or any securities that aren't equity in businesses that I've helped run.

但如果非要选，可能只有微策略公司符合。

But if I did, the only one would probably be MicroStrategy.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

我个人认为，若要通过证券持有比特币，微策略比ETF更优，因为它实际上在努力增加每股比特币持有量。

And that I think that my personal perspective is that if it comes to owning Bitcoin through a security, that MicroStrategy would be better than owning it in ETF because he's actually trying to generate more Bitcoin per share.

话虽如此，我们对其关于比特币作为财产或货币的观点存在根本分歧。

That being said, we're gonna have an inherent disagreement about, you know, his opinion of of Bitcoin as property or money.

他曾评论说，没人会用第五大道建筑的零星股权去买杯咖啡。

That, you know, he made the comment about, you know, there's no one who's trying to to buy a cup of coffee with a fraction of the equity of their 5th Avenue building.

我认为关键在于建筑物本身并非货币。

And I think the point is that it's because a building isn't isn't money.

他未明确的是：货币是财产，但并非所有财产都是货币。

And the thing that he didn't distinguish is that money is property, but not all property is money.

他用了房地产这类不动产作类比，但房地产无法实现买咖啡、订阅软件服务或购置建筑的功能——这正是比特币能实现的，也是货币与财产的本质区别。

And and he was using the analogies of of real property in the case of real estate, but but for the same reason that real estate can't facilitate the purchase of your cup of coffee or the purchasing of software as a service or purchasing of a building is the same reason that Bitcoin can and and the distinction between money and property.

房地产不能充当货币的原因，正是比特币作为财产崛起的理由。

And so the same reason that real estate can't serve as money is is the reason why Bitcoin is emerging as property.

它可以轻松转移。

It can be easily transferred.

无论是买杯咖啡还是购置大楼，它都能促成大小交易。

It can facilitate transactions large or small for a cup of coffee or a building.

我认为价值储存与交易媒介本就没有区别。

And I also think that there really isn't a distinction between a store of value and a medium exchange.

货币兼具双重功能，就连迈克尔·塞勒也在通过比特币完成系列交易并储存价值。

Money does both, and even Michael Saylor is is intermediating a series of of exchanges and storing his value in Bitcoin.

他今天刚把美元兑换成比特币，打算持有这些比特币可能长达百年，但最终会在未来的某个时间点将其兑换。

He, you know, just today converted dollars into Bitcoin, and he's gonna hold those Bitcoin hopefully a hundred years, but then he's gonna exchange it at some future point in time.

所以他真正谈论的是时间跨度和交易类型的差异。

And so really what he's talking about is the is the difference of time horizon and the type of transactions.

但比特币能做到这一点的事实，恰恰证明了它是一种极佳的货币形式。

But the mere fact that Bitcoin can do that is is why it's such a good form of money.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的意思是，虽然我不会读心术，但可以试着站在迈克尔·塞勒的角度思考这个问题。

I mean, I'm not a mind reader, but I can try to put myself in Michael Saylor's shoes on this.

和帕克一样，我非常尊重他。

Like Parker, I have a lot of respect for him.

但如果我运营一家上市公司，并且刚刚完成了史上最伟大的投机行动之一。

But if I'm operating a public company and I've just pulled off one of the greatest speculative attacks of all time Ever.

不断积累。

Stacking Ever.

像他那样持续积累数据的情况下，我会希望以最不具威胁性的姿态出现在监管机构和业务所在辖区面前。

Stacking stats the way he has been, I'd want to portray myself as the least threatening way possible to my regulators and to the jurisdiction that I operate my business in.

再次强调，我没有理由认为他说的不是真实想法。

And so again, I have no reason to believe he's not saying exactly what he thinks.

但如果处在那个位置，我也会那样描述对比特币的看法，因为这让我显得不那么具有威胁性，不会挑战美元的终极地位。

But if I were in that position, I would portray that is what I think about Bitcoin because it makes me less threatening, does not challenge the ultimate status quo, which is the US dollar.

如果我是迈克尔·塞勒，确实没有理由打破现状。

And there's no reason to rock that boat if I'm Michael Saylor.

我很乐意把比特币描绘成第五大道的摩天大楼。

I'm perfectly happy portraying Bitcoin as skyscraper on 5th Avenue.

这没问题，但我们不必那样看待它。

That's okay, but we don't have to view it that way.

我认为大多数拥有比特币或了解比特币的人，都不会将比特币的用途局限在货币功能之外。

I don't think most people that have Bitcoin or have knowledge about Bitcoin, think of Bitcoin outside of its monetary use cases.

普雷斯顿，我完全同意你的观点。

Preston I totally agree with your point there.

我一直觉得这可能是他用那些术语来讨论比特币的原因。

And I've always felt like that might be the reason why he goes about it and talking about it in those terms.

但对于真正理解比特币的人来说，特别是当你从七国集团以外的国家视角来看——比如我离开美国去到某个发展中国家，当地货币每年贬值70%到100%，我无法获得银行账户服务等等——

But I think for people that deeply understand Bitcoin, especially when you look at it from outside of a G7 country, like if I'm out of The United States and I myself to some other developing nation state and I'm dealing with a local currency that's getting the base by 70 or 100% a year and I can't get access to a bank account and all of those types of things.

我看着比特币，能看到第二层解决方案，能即时结算并进行支付。

I'm looking at Bitcoin, I can see layer two, I can immediately settle and I can conduct payments.

我不禁要问：这怎么可能不是货币？比特币作为货币的存在。

I'm saying, how in the world is this not the currency, Bitcoin as a currency?

它既是财产也是货币，帕克这个观点很有见地。

It can be property and currency, Parker's very thoughtful point.

如果我开了一家店，有顾客进来，我完全可以说：你可以用比特币支付来买可乐或咖啡，否则就请离开。我不会接受那些每年贬值100%的废纸货币，也不会给你店里那些工作量证明的东西。

How in the world am I not saying if somebody comes to my store, let's say I'm a store and I'm a vendor, I'm looking at them like, You can pay in Bitcoin and take that Coke or that coffee or whatever it is, or else you can just leave, and I'm not going to give you this proof of work thing that is sitting in my store because I'm not accepting the worthless currency that's debasing at 100% a year.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

我认为世界正快速向这个方向发展，尤其是在发展中国家。

I think that's where the world is moving very quickly, especially in developing nations.

也许十年、十五或二十年后，比特币在发展中国家会扮演更重要的支付角色。

And hey, maybe ten years from now, fifteen, twenty years from now, it's way bigger payment role in developing nation states.

我实在无法理解现在怎么会有人看不到这点。

I guess I can't understand how somebody couldn't see it that way right now.

是啊。

Yeah.

说实话在那次访谈开始时，我以为他会转变论调。因为至少过去一年甚至一年半里，他一直在坚持比特币作为财产属性的观点。

I honestly thought at the beginning of that interview that he was going to sort of change his tune, because he's been sitting mostly this for at least a year, if not a year and a half now, around this Bitcoin as property type thing.

但当他将比特币与黄金相比较，并讨论比特币超越、吞噬黄金市值时，他

But when he was comparing three:thirty Bitcoin to gold and talking about Bitcoin overtaking, eating up gold's market cap, he

提到，假设你拥有能瞬间传送到日本的黄金

was mentioning, what if you had gold that you could send to Japan in a matter of

传送。

Teleport.

从美国到日本只需几分钟的传送——我当时就想，哇，他居然从这个角度切入，这本质上是在讨论它作为交换媒介的货币属性，至少部分如此。

Teleport to Japan in a matter of minutes from The United States, which again was I was like, Oh, wow, he's going to go on that angle, which is basically talking about its monetary qualities as a medium of exchange, at least partly so.

我认为那些促使比特币超越黄金的应用场景，也正是它比其他任何商品或资产更适合作为货币的原因。

I think that there's a little bit of the use cases that will help Bitcoin overtake gold are also why it's a better money to any other commodity or property.

不过确实，我觉得这个观点很有意思。

But yeah, I just thought that was interesting.

是啊。

Yeah.

我个人认为其实无需区分，虽然我明白各地情况不同。

And I think I really personally don't distinguish between and I understand the places are different.

他甚至用这个例子来回答你的问题。

He uses the example even to your question.

要知道世界上很多地方连美元都接触不到——尽管美元作为储值手段已经很糟糕了。

There's a lot of the world that doesn't even have access to the dollar you know, from a store value perspective as bad as the dollar is.

但它仍在运转，能买到很多东西。

But it's functioning and it buys you a lot of things.

所以它比那些连基本功能都不具备的货币实用得多。

So it is far more functional than than a form of money that doesn't even do that.

这种情况可能出现在非洲，也可能在任何正经历恶性通胀的国家，或是根本无法获得国际通用货币的地区。

And that could be in Africa or it could be literally anywhere that's either experiencing hyperinflation today in some country or just doesn't have access to form of money that the rest of the world will readily accept.

但他评论道——我记得大意是——如果你在非洲，你会买什么？

But he made the comment, I believe something like, you know, if you're in Africa, what would you buy?

比如，你知道的，房地产、房子，或者抱歉，或者比特币。

Like, you know, real estate or a house or or sorry, or Bitcoin.

但如果你反过来想，如果你在销售商品或服务，这其实是一回事。

But if you flip it around, it's really the same thing if you're selling goods or services.

所以，你到底想说什么？

So like, what are you saying?

你应该，如果你在美国，你应该用美元销售商品和服务，然后转手卖掉这些美元换取比特币，像他那样操作。为什么不直接省去这个高成本的步骤呢？

You should you know, if you're in The US, you should sell goods and services for dollars, and then turn around and sell those dollars to then get Bitcoin to do what he's doing, or why not take out the very costly step?

你知道，比特币在过去一周上涨了20%。

You know, Bitcoin's gone up by 20% over the last week.

这就像，如果你真正想要的是比特币，那你就是在绕一个不必要的弯子。

It's like, if you're you're just taking out an unnecessary step if you actually want the Bitcoin.

对吧？

Right?

如果我能收美元（我生意中确实收美元），但我同时也收比特币。而我收到的美元，我会兑换成比特币。

If I I could take dollars, which I do in my business, but I also take Bitcoin, but the dollars that I do get, I then convert to Bitcoin.

这和他为他的生意所做的完全一样。

The same thing that he's doing for his business.

所以关键在于，为什么不直接这样做呢？

So the point is, why not just do that on a direct basis?

我最核心的观点是：终有一天，你使用的货币形式会失效。

My number one point is, at some point, your form of money is not gonna is is is gonna stop working.

我知道这么说很有争议，但争议性改变不了现实——现实就是大量印钞的后果，而你确实...

And I get that that's controversial to say, but the fact that it's controversial doesn't change the fact that it's also the reality of printing up a lot of money and that you really

每90天印1万亿算不算大量印钞？

Is is 1,000,000,000,000 every ninety days printing a lot of money?

那可真是不少。

That's a lot.

这可是很大一笔钱啊，威尔。

That's a lot of money, Will.

实际上实在是太多了，多到人类大脑甚至无法理解。

It's actually it's actually too much it's it's so much that the human brain cannot even conceive No.

从某些具体价值的角度来看它所代表的含义。

What it represents in terms of some some tangible value.

所以当你开始意识到，其实我们和世界上其他人面临着同样的问题，不论我们是否身处G7国家并拥有全球储备货币。

And so when you start to realize that it's like we actually have the same problem that everybody else in the world has, regardless of if we're in a G7 country and we have the global reserve currency.

问题在于我们的价值正在被稀释，我们的货币正在被摧毁。

The problem is that our value's being debased and that our currency's being destroyed.

而我们需要同时解决这两个问题。

And we need to solve both of those things.

我们必须找到一种更好的价值储存货币形式，但这本就是一体两面的。

We have to find a better form of money that stores value, but it's part and parcel.

如果它不容易兑换，那它就无法储存价值。

If you if it's not easy to exchange, then it's not gonna store value.

它能储存价值正是因为它可以轻松与80亿人进行交换——这些人可能最初只是在资产负债表上持有比特币，后来才意识到：如果他们想最高效地获取比特币，他们可以做到，因为与建筑物不同，比特币确实可以转移。

It's going to store value because it's going to be easily exchangeable with 8,000,000,000 people who all have first probably bought Bitcoin on their balance sheets and then figure it out at a later point in time that if they wanna acquire the Bitcoin most efficiently, they can because unlike a a building, it's actually possible to to transfer it.

就比特币而言，它可以通过通信渠道完成转移。

In this case, in Bitcoin, it's possible to do over a communication channel.

但同样地，你无法用国债或证券（比如MicroStrategy股票）去超市购买商品是有原因的。

But then also, like, there's a reason why you can't go into your grocery store and buy buy groceries with a treasury bond or a security or a security like MicroStrategy.

用比特币就可以实现，这归功于它的特性。

You can do that with Bitcoin because of its properties.

不仅因为它有固定供应量，还因为你可以无对手方风险地转移它。

Not just that it has a fixed supply, but that you can transfer it without counterparty risk.

虽然你也可以承担对手方风险进行转移，但股票或债券本质上无法摆脱对手方风险——因为信任是证券的核心属性，而比特币无需信任的特性正是它既能作为价值储存，又能换取实物商品服务或美元的关键所在。

You can transfer it with counterparty risk too, but stock or a bond is not capable of being transferred without a counterparty risk because trust is core to the nature of a security, and the trustless nature of Bitcoin is core to its ability to function as both a store of value and an ability to exchange it in return for real goods and services or dollars.

我们也不要忽略两个非常明显的重点。

Let's not miss two very obvious points as well.

第一，比特币本质上就是货币。

One is Bitcoin is literally money.

我是说，它至少在某个国家是法定货币。

I mean, it's legal tender in at least one country.

这个观点很有道理。

That's a good point.

对吧？

Right?

而且就在当下，即便处于发展初期，它每天作为交换媒介的流通量已达数千万甚至数亿美元。

And it's used to the tune of tens and hundreds of millions of dollars every single day as a medium of exchange right now, today, even in its infancy.

但第二点是，并非所有人都像迈克尔·塞勒那样拥有足够的资产负债表或储蓄来按他的方式购买比特币。

Number two though, is not everyone has the balance sheet or the savings that Michael Saylor has to buy Bitcoin the way that he's doing right now.

如果他们想获取比特币，最佳方式之一就是出售商品、服务或时间，直接接受比特币支付——而不是接收美元、承担交易对手风险、支付兑换手续费、像外汇交易员那样操作，你只需基于原则按1:30的比例用时间或商品换取比特币。

And if they want to obtain Bitcoin, one of the best ways to do it is just to sell a good or service or your time, receive it as payment instead of receiving dollars, taking the counterparty risk, the fees involved with exchanging, being a Forex trader, you just take Bitcoin on a principled basis one:thirty for your time or for your goods.

没错，因为这是可行的。

Yeah, because you can.

我们先稍事休息，听听今天的赞助商消息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

格雷格，作为小企业主，你可没资格提前下班。

Greg As a small business owner, you do not have the luxury of clocking out early.

你的生意24小时都在你脑海里。

Your business is on your mind twenty four seven.

所以在招聘时，你需要一个和你一样拼命的合作伙伴。

So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do.

这个招聘伙伴就是领英招聘。

That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs.

当你下班时，领英开始工作。

When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in.

领英让你轻松免费发布职位，分享到人脉网络，并在一处管理所有合格候选人。

LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place.

领英甚至能帮你撰写职位描述，通过深度候选人洞察快速触达目标人群。

LinkedIn can even help you write job descriptions and quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights.

你可以免费发布职位，或付费推广以获得三倍多的合格申请人。

You can post your job for free or promote it to get three times more qualified applicants.

使用领英，你大可放心获得最佳申请人——72%的中小企业表示领英帮助他们找到高质量候选人。

And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best applicants as 72% of small and medium sized businesses using LinkedIn say it helps them find high quality candidates.

了解为何我们企业和超过250万家中小企业选择领英进行招聘。

Find out why our business and more than 2,500,000 other small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today.

免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/studybill。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/studybill.

记住是linkedin.com/studybill，免费发布您的职位。

That's linkedin.com/studybill to post your job for free.

条款与条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

每家企业都在问同一个问题。

Every business is asking the same question.

如何让AI为我们所用？

How do we make AI work for us?

可能性无穷无尽，而猜测又太过冒险。

The possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky.

但袖手旁观绝非选择，因为有一点几乎可以确定。

But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain.

你的竞争对手早已开始行动，所以没有时间等待。

Your competitors are already making their moves, so there isn't time to wait.

通过Oracle的NetSuite，您今天就能让AI为您工作。

With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today.

NetSuite是排名第一的AI云ERP系统，受到超过43,000家企业的信赖。

NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses.

它是一个统一套件，将财务、库存、商务、人力资源和客户关系管理整合为单一真实数据源。

It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth.

智能自动化日常任务，降低成本，并充满信心地做出AI驱动的决策。

Intelligently automate routine tasks, cut costs, and make AI powered decisions with confidence.

无论您的公司盈利数百万还是数亿，NetSuite都能助您保持领先地位。

Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack.

如果我也需要这类产品，我会选择使用它。

And if I needed this product, it is what I would use.

现在立即获取他们的免费商业指南《解密AI》，网址：netsuite.com/study。

Right now, get their free business guide, demystifying AI at netsuite.com/study.

这份指南完全免费，请访问netsuite.com/study。

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/study, netsuite.com/study.

想象一下：午夜时分，您躺在床上浏览新发现的网站，正把心仪商品加入购物车。

Picture this, it's midnight, you're lying in bed scrolling through this new website you found and hitting the add to cart button on that item you've been looking for.

当准备结账时，您想起钱包还在客厅，却不愿下床去取。

Once you're ready to check out, you remember that your wallet is in your living room and you don't want to get out of bed to go get it.

就在您即将放弃购物车时，那个紫色购物按钮出现了。

Just as you're getting ready to abandon your cart, that's when you see it, that purple shop button.

这个按钮已保存您所有的支付和配送信息，让您足不出被窝就能快速完成交易。

That shop button has all of your payment and shipping info saved, saving you time while in the comfort of your own bed.

这就是Shopify，包括我在内的众多商家选择它是有原因的。

That's Shopify, and there's a reason so many businesses, including mine, sell with it.

因为Shopify让一切变得更简单，从结账到创建专属店面都轻松搞定。

Because Shopify makes everything easier, from checkout to creating your own storefront.

Shopify是全球数百万企业的商业平台，支撑着美国10%的电子商务交易。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses all around the world and 10% of all e commerce in The US.

从美泰和Gymshark这样的家喻户晓品牌，到像我这样刚刚起步的品牌。

From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands like mine that are still getting started.

Shopify为您提供全球转化率最高的结账系统。

And Shopify gives you access to the best converting checkout on the planet.

让Shopify助您将宏伟商业构想变为现实，您稍后会感谢我的。

Turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side and thank me later.

立即注册享受每月1美元的试用，今天就开始销售吧，网址是shopify.com/wsb。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

就是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

好的。

All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

Greg我早前提过，在一些货币严重贬值、通胀肆虐的发展中国家，店主会直接说：要么用比特币支付，要么请离开。

Greg I had mentioned earlier that in some of these developing nations that have really bad currencies with a lot of inflation that the store owner would just say, Hey, you're either paying with Bitcoin or you're going to get out.

但Ben Perrin在Madera时，我们有过一次对话。他最近...对了，他有个很棒的视频，听众朋友们如果想了解Peter和Will如何构建Zaprite可以看看。

But Ben Perrin, when I was over in Madera, him and I were having a conversation and he had just recently was He has this amazing video, by the way, for people listening, if you want to see how Zaprite with Peter and Will have built.

这个Parker Will，侮辱Sam。

This Parker Will, insult Sam.

Preston他有个精彩的视频，展示了Parker和Will开发的Zaprite使用方法，以及API如何运作，适合想要集成的人。

Preston He has this amazing video that Parker and Will have built with Zaprite that you can see how to use it, how the API works for people that are trying to integrate it.

但他在那里对我说过一件重要的事：Preston，我在搭建系统时有个重大心理突破——如果我卖的商品或服务定价X，那么法币支付的价格就是X的120%。

But one of the things that he said to me when we were over there was, he's like, Preston, there's this really important mental breakthrough for me when I was setting this up that if I'm selling a good or service and the price is X, I have another price that's in fiat that is 20% higher than X for anybody that wants to pay in fiat instead of Bitcoin.

他说：听起来很简单几乎不值一提，但这是个巨大跨越。因为这不是比特币支付的折扣，而是让人们心理上自然选择更低价。

And he's like, It sounds so simple and just so It's almost like it's not anything, but he's like, I think it's a really big jump because instead of it being a discount if you pay in Bitcoin, he's like, I think people just mentally are looking at it and say, well, of course, I want to pay the lower price.

不想多付20%的费用。

Don't want to pay 20% more.

然后他说，这可是件大事。

And he's like, it's a really big deal.

这让我猛然意识到，我一直在反复思考这件事。

And it struck me, and I was just I just kept thinking about it.

这要归功于你们团队实现了这个方案。

And this is kudos to you guys for implementing this.

但回到店主的话题，我不认为会突然出现这种情况：某天你走进商店，他们同时接受传统货币和比特币。

But going back to the the store owner, I don't think it's going to be this leap from you go into that store one day and they're accepting both their legacy currency and Bitcoin.

我认为会更像是一个结账选项，或者像手机支付那样。

I think it's gonna be almost like a checkout or like a mobile phone.

就像这样：看，你可以用比特币按这个价格支付。

It's like, here it is, you can pay in Bitcoin for this price.

如果你用这种糟糕的货币付款，我会直接加收40%的费用，因为我不想要它。

If you're paying me with this really terrible currency, I'm just slapping a 40% additional fee on top of it because I don't want that.

我会收下，但并非心甘情愿。

I'll take it, but I don't want it.

我认为这就是比特币将如何逐步发展并在全球站稳脚跟的方式——你们精心设计的模式将会在全球上演。

And this is the I think that's how it's going to slowly progress and take hold all around the world, is you're going to see this model that you guys so thoughtfully constructed play out.

所以我不确定这里面是否有问题，或者你们还有什么想补充的，但是——

So I don't know if there's a question in there or that you guys have anything else that you want to add, but-

不，这引起了很多共鸣。

No, it resonates a lot.

我的意思是，特意安排在一点半将其定位为高端产品。

I mean, it was very intentional one:thirty to frame it as a premium.

我记得这其实是帕克的主意。

I think that was Parker's brainchild actually.

虽然现在谁知道呢，我们整天就坐在一起聊天。

Although who knows at this point, we just sit together all day talking.

我

I

带着这些愚蠢的想法出现。

Roll up with these stupid ideas.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得这是帕克的主意，但实际上这是在传递偏好信号。

I think it was Parker's brainchild, but really it's about signalling preference.

无论你是经营实体店、在线销售商品，还是拥有牙科诊所的牙医、律师这类职业，你都拥有单方面决定如何向客户收费和定价的权利。

And that if you own a store or if you're selling something online or if you're a dentist that owns their own dental practice or lawyer or something like that, you have unilateral control over how you bill your customers and charge for your products.

当你展现出这种偏好时，往往就能得到你想要的。

And when you show a preference like that, you're likely to get what you want.

如果你想要比特币，传递这种偏好最好的方式莫过于帕克总是区分'此处接受比特币'和'此处优先使用比特币'。

And if you want Bitcoin, there's probably not a better way to signal that preference than Parker always distinguishes between Bitcoin accepted here and Bitcoin preferred here.

现在你就是在说：比特币，我更希望你用比特币支付。

And now you're saying, Bitcoin, I prefer you pay me in Bitcoin.

事实上，如果用比特币支付我会给你折扣，如果用法定货币支付则需支付溢价。

In fact, I will give you a discount if you pay Or you'll have to pay a premium if you pay in a fiat.

我很喜欢一家长期践行这个理念的公司——MolVad VPN。

One company I like a lot that's been doing this for a long time is MolVad VPN.

多年来他们一直支持比特币支付，并且始终为比特币支付提供折扣。

They've had Bitcoin as an option for years and they've always, always, always given a discount if you paid in Bitcoin.

现在形式虽然不同了，但传递偏好的本质没变。

Now it's framed differently, but the signaling of preference is the same.

我相当确定他们通过这种方式积累了不少比特币。

And I'm I'm pretty sure they've stacked quite a few stats through that.

你认为框架设定重要吗？

Do you think the framing's important?

我在我的书中运用了这个概念。

I use it with my book.

我可以告诉你，当我在书上加收10%溢价时，人们更愿意用法币支付。在我看来（我会在比特币支付重要性的更广泛背景下讨论这个问题），这是因为比特币作为更优越的货币形式存在成本优势。

And I can just tell you that when I put a 10% premium on my book, people wanna pay in fiat, my view of it, and I'll talk about it in the broader context of the importance of Bitcoin payments, is that there's a cost it's like Bitcoin is a better form of money.

它之所以是更优越的货币形式，不仅因为它能更好地储存价值，还因为它在接收环节不存在单点故障风险，或者说本就不该存在。

It's a better form of money because it allows you to store value better, but also there's not a single point of failure in terms of how you are receiving it, or that doesn't have to be.

如果你直接从客户那里收款，不仅获得了流动性更强的货币形式，还实现了流动性来源的多元化，这点至关重要。

And that if you're getting paid directly from your customers, you have not only a more liquid form of currency, but you also have a more diversity of your liquidity, which is important.

当我加收10%溢价时，价格本身就在传递信息。

And that when I put a 10% premium on price communicates information.

任何商品的价格都是信息的传递载体。

So price of any good is a communication of information.

比如说，

If you say, hey.

要多付10%费用。

It costs 10% more.

这本书标价30美元，但如果你想用美元支付，就要付33美元。

The book costs $30, but if you wanna pay me in dollars, it costs 33.

我实际上不需要和对方进行对话。

I don't actually have to have a conversation with the person.

我就能传达关于交易成本的信息。如果让我接受更优质的货币形式反而要少收费，这在我看来不合逻辑。

I can communicate information about the cost of thing, and it doesn't make sense to me to say, if you wanna give me the better form of money, you can actually pay less.

道理在于：如果你想用更劣质的货币支付，就必须付更多钱，因为其中涉及额外成本。

It's that if wanna give me the worst form of money, you're gonna have to pay me more because there's a cost associated with it.

更何况这种债务型货币本身就带有大量交易对手风险，这些衍生成本终归要有人承担。

And then in in both the way that it's a debt based currency that has a ton of counterparty risk that introduces all this cost that someone's gotta pay for it.

如果你想让我来承担，我其实会说，不行。

And if you want it to be me, I'm actually gonna say, nope.

必须由你来承担。

It needs to be you.

除此之外，还有波动性的问题。

And then in addition to that, it's the volatility.

如果很多商户处理需要十、十五甚至二十天才能将款项转给你，这就存在退款风险。

So if a lot of merchant processing takes ten, fifteen, twenty days to send to you, there's the risk of chargebacks.

如果比特币过去十年平均每天升值1%左右，而我却要无限期等待二十天才能将生意赚取的美元兑换成比特币，这除了手续费外又增加了一层成本。

If Bitcoin's appreciating on average over the last ten years by 1% a day or whatever it is, then if I'm having to wait into perpetuity twenty days to convert my dollars to Bitcoin that I'm earning through my business, that's another cost in addition to just the processing fees.

但从更宏观的角度看，我们认为比特币是一种新型货币。

But on a broader standpoint, the way that we think about it is Bitcoin is a new form of money.

人们是第一次接触它。

People are adopting it for the first time.

这不像买辆不同的车、买栋不同的楼，或是购买生活中多次买过的略有差异的东西。

It's not like buying a different car or buying a different building or buying something else that's marginally different than something you've bought several times in your life.

人们首先需要——比特币的安全工具必须被开发出来，才能让大家确信自己可以安全持有而不会丢失。

People have to first, the tools to secure Bitcoin had to be built in order to allow people to adequately know that they could hold it without losing it.

正是这些提升了比特币的价值存储属性，改进了托管方式。

That's what improved the store of value property, improved methods of custody of Bitcoin.

这就是我们在Unchained解决的问题。

That's what we worked out at Unchained.

但关键在于，要让人们接受比特币支付，你必须先构建工具。

But the point is that in order for people to accept Bitcoin as payment, you have to build the tools.

这些工具过去从未存在过。

They've never existed before.

你可以把欧元接入美元体系，把日元接入美元体系，因为它们本质上都是基于信任的相同系统。

And you can plug the euro into the dollar system and the yen into the dollar system because they're functionally the same as a trust based system.

比特币是一种新型货币。

Bitcoin is a new form of money.

为了让企业能够接受比特币支付，存在多种不同类型的交易需要不同的产品支持。

And in order for businesses to be able to receive Bitcoin as payment, like, there's many different types of transactions that require different products.

所以我们不仅仅是在打造一个所谓的比特币支付公司。

And so we're not just building a, quote, Bitcoin payments company.

我们正在针对特定类型的客户和支付方式构建专属解决方案。

We're building something specific for a certain type of customer based on certain types of payments.

产品必须精准匹配需求，并且要做到极致简单。

And the product has to be the right product, and it has to be dead simple.

所谓精准匹配，就是要开发像本提到的那些真正有价值的功能，这些功能能激励支付方选择用比特币付款。

And the product being the right product is being able to build features like what Ben mentioned to you of things that people actually value that actually incentivize the payer to pay in Bitcoin.

但除此之外，我们简化流程、减轻企业负担的理念核心在于：必须实现比特币与法币的并行接收，因为两者在当下共存，且企业在可预见的未来需要同时依赖两者生存。

But in addition to that, a big part of our philosophy of making it dead simple and reducing the burden on the business is that it does need to be you can receive Bitcoin side by side with fiat because both exist today, and businesses need actually to survive on both for some foreseeable future.

这也是ZapRite的核心价值——我们让企业能轻松接收比特币和闪电网络支付（链上和链下），与法币并行，使企业在做决策时几乎无需额外考量。

So that's another thing that's core to ZapRite is we make it really easy to receive Bitcoin and Lightning, Onchain and Lightning, side by side with fiat, such that the business, when they're thinking about that decision point, it's marginal.

关键就在于'是否要提供比特币选项'——如果要我走完全不同的流程，那我肯定不会选。

It's do I want to give Bitcoin as an option Because if you're gonna make me go through an entirely different process, I'm not gonna do it.

我宁愿直接收法币再兑换成比特币。

I'll just take the Bitcoin and convert it to or or the fiat and convert it to Bitcoin.

这些因素我们都会综合考虑。

And so we think about all those things.

如何降低门槛，让实际接受这种支付方式的企业数量增长10倍、100倍甚至1000倍。

How do we lower the bar such that the number of businesses that actually accepted this payment is 10x, 100x, 1000x.

我坚信国际软件销售将是比特币的最佳应用场景——比起先用阿根廷比索兑美元再换比特币，直接使用比特币能获得更高价值。

And I'm pretty sure selling software internationally is gonna be a great application to get more Bitcoin pound for pound than if you took an Argentine peso and then converted it to a dollar and then converted it to Bitcoin.

我想补充的是，虽然我们主要关注商户偏好这方面，但我们的焦点并不局限于此。

I mean, would add in there that it's not just the merchant preference that we're focused on, although we do focus on that side of the equation for the most part.

但我们也在与商家达成协议。

But we're we're also making a deal with the merchant.

就像，我们将为您的客户提供更便捷的支付方式，不仅限于比特币，而是整体上更简便的支付体验。

Like, we're gonna deliver your customers an easier way to pay, not just with Bitcoin, just an easier way to pay in general.

如果在线购物用比特币不如用美元方便，我预计那些客户会更倾向于使用美元支付，因为那样更简单。

And that if it's not easier to buy something online with Bitcoin than it is with dollars, I anticipate those customers are going to gravitate towards paying with dollars because it's simpler.

因此，我们不仅要强调商家可以使用更优质的货币形式支付并尊重他们的偏好，还必须让他们的客户享受到更好的体验。

So not only are we trying to highlight the fact that the merchant can pay with a better form of money and recognise their preference for that, we have to treat their customers to a better experience.

说实话，我们已掌握了所需的一切工具。

And honestly, we have all the tools we need.

可以说目前我们至少与传统法币支付持平，甚至略胜一筹，但未来我们会做得更好。

Would say we're about even right now, if not slightly better than taking fiat payments, but we're going be way better.

无论你采用托管还是非托管的支付方式，操作都将变得无比简单。

It's going to be so much simpler regardless of whether you're using custodial, non custodial methods of payment.

用比特币支付会比法币支付简单得多——实际上现在用比特币支付已经和法币支付一样便捷了。

It's going to be way simpler, already is about as simple to seven:fifty pay with Bitcoin rather than fiat.

我必须说，每次订购帕克的书时使用Zaprite服务的体验简直棒极了。

I'll just say, I've used the Zaprite service whenever I ordered Parker's book, it was phenomenal.

操作简单到不能再简单了。

It couldn't have been any easier.

整个流程超级清爽。

It was super clean.

但我想说的是，过去一年半到两年里我一直在强调：目前还缺乏真正激励支付行为的自然需求信号。

But when I'm looking at I guess this has been my talking point for the last year and a half, two years is you don't have this natural demand signal that's really incentivizing payments quite yet.

我认为真正能推动这种自然激励的因素是——当比特币创下历史新高时。

What I was saying that I think is going to really help boost that incentive, that natural incentive is once Bitcoin makes a new all time high.

因为放眼全球，所有人都在说'美元表现多么出色'。

Because when you look all around the world, everybody's saying, Oh, the dollar has done so much better.

当比特币从69,000美元跌至16,000美元一枚时，人们看着这个数字说：'好吧，我那时对比特币有点失去兴趣了，因为以美元计价，它离高点差太远了。'

When Bitcoin was at 16,000 a coin after going to call it 69,000, they're looking at that and they're saying, Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of forgetting about Bitcoin at that point because in dollar terms, it's way off of where it was.

现在，我们正处于一个非常非常有趣的时间点，因为我们刚刚创下了历史新高。

Now, we're at a very, very interesting point in time because we just made a new all time high.

我认为全世界的人们都开始用本国货币甚至美元来审视这个东西，他们意识到这已经是比特币第四次'死亡'了。

I think everybody around the world is starting to look at this thing in their own local currency or even the dollar terms and they're saying, this is the fourth time that it supposedly died three or four times at this point.

现在它又回来了，完成了又一次重生。

Now it's back, it's rebirthed itself again.

我认为接下来会有供应商表示：'你们提供的即用型API能让我轻松接收支付。'

And I think you're going to start getting vendors that are saying, you got a turnkey API that's going to allow me to accept payments.

没错，可能每100个顾客中只有1个愿意以低于法币的价格用比特币支付。

Yeah, I might only have one out of a 100 people that come through the door willing to pay at a discount to the fiat price.

如果操作真的非常简单便捷，而他们又希望接收这种更优越的货币形式，我认为未来两年内，比特币支付的自然需求信号将真正开始改变局面。

If it's really simple and really easy to do and they are wanting to receive this superior form of money, I think things really start to change in the coming two years from a natural demand signal for Bitcoin payments.

我猜你们都同意这个观点，但对于支付需求、自然市场需求上升这个问题，你们有什么想法？

I'm assuming you guys agree with that, but what kind of thoughts do you guys have around the demand, the natural market demand for payments picking up?

崔，我同意你的说法。

Trey I agree with your statement.

我认为这是非常理性的思考方式，对吧？

I would say that's also a really rational way to think about it, right?

就像每四年我们都会刷新历史新高，这种周期性不断积累着可信度。

Is like every four years we keep on hitting new all time highs, that just builds up credibility over time.

比特币每存活一天，它的可信度就增加一分。

Bitcoin, every day it doesn't die, builds up a little bit more credibility over time.

我同意这类信号的存在，比特币发展史上确实有许多为其建立可信度的关键时刻。

I agree that these types of signals, there's moments in Bitcoin's history that lend it credibility.

当丝绸之路的比特币被查封后不是被销毁而是被拍卖，这就是一个建立可信度的时刻。

When the Silk Road coins are seized and then they're auctioned off and not destroyed, that's a moment of credibility.

当第一家上市公司将其纳入资产负债表时，那是一个可信度的时刻。

When the first public company adds it to its balance sheet, that's a moment of credibility.

当它在2017年经历内部冲突与斗争后依然存活时，那是一个可信度的时刻。

When it survives internal strife and struggle in 2017, that's a moment of credibility.

每次看到它兑换美元的汇率突破历史新高时，那都是一个可信度的时刻。

Every time you see it surpassing all time highs in conversion to US dollars, that's a moment of credibility.

所以是的，我认为这件事会吸引大量关注。

So yeah, I think this one is going to get a lot of attention.

我觉得这会让人产生一种想法：我必须持有更多比特币，否则我的业务就会错过机会，或者暴露在某种奇怪或可怕的风险中。

I think it's one of those things that makes people think, I have to get more of this, or I'm not exposing my business to something weird or scary or something like that.

确实，从驱动因素来看，历史新高有帮助，但这本质上还是取决于人——就像个人决定'我要持有比特币'一样。

And yeah, in terms of the driver, all time high helps, but it's really just about people, same way individuals make the decision, I want to hold Bitcoin.

企业也将做出同样的决策。

Businesses are going to make those same decisions as well.

毕竟企业也是由那些私下已接受比特币的人在运营。

They're just run by the same people that are getting it individually.

我确实看到这一点，我们的客户群体也印证了这点：独立经营的独资企业更容易单方面决定接受比特币。

I do see that, and our client base would bear this out, that it's easier for companies that are independently owned, sole proprietors to make that unilateral decision to accept Bitcoin.

我们会看到许多律师、牙医等自主经营者开始采用。

We're going to see a lot of lawyers, a lot of dentists, things like that, that own their own businesses.

但越来越站不住脚的是，大企业董事会成员说'我自己持币，但公司不参与'这种情况。

But more and more, it's going to become untenable for people sitting on the boards of bigger businesses to say, Well, I do this for myself, but I don't do this for my business.

对吧？

Right?

无论是出于资金管理目的在资产负债表上持有比特币，还是为客户建立更优质的支付体系。

Whether that's holding Bitcoin on the balance sheet for treasury purposes or having the superior payment structure set up for your customers.

所以没错，历史新高在这方面确实有帮助。

So yeah, the all time high helps there.

所有这些其他信用背书也是如此，比如ETF时刻。

So do all these other credibility lending, the ETF moments.

然后就是这一系列独立决策的累积，最终引导我们进入一个大众接受比特币的大型市场。

And then it's just a series of those independent decisions that are being made that ultimately leads us to a big marketplace of people accepting Bitcoin.

这个过程也非常自然。

It's also very organic.

普雷斯顿，我想前几天我们在峰会上见面时可能讨论过这个，但比特币无论今天价值如何，它已经超过一万亿美元了。

So one of the things I think Preston, you and I might have talked about this a few days when we were together at the summit, but if Bitcoin, whatever it is today, it's over a trillion dollars.

我不确定具体数字，大概是1.2万亿或1.3万亿。

I don't know what this is like 1,200,000,000,000.0 or 1.3.

是的。

Yeah.

2或3。

2 or 3.

那

That

这可是巨大的购买力。

that's a lot of purchasing power.

如果我们单纯以'1比特币=1比特币'的思维来看，我们正在打造一家比特币支付公司——我们之所以专注这个领域，是因为我们意识到未来将有指数级增长的人群会要求持有比特币作为资产或货币（无论你如何定义），而这将导致对比特币支付需求的爆发式增长。

And so if we're just thinking one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin terms, we're building a Bitcoin payments company, and we're specifically building it because we recognize that orders of magnitude more people are gonna demand Bitcoin to hold it as a property or money, however you wanna define it, and that that is going to result in orders of magnitude more people demanding Bitcoin payments.

我们提供的服务面向当前持有2100万枚比特币的群体（现在约1960万枚），让他们能够轻松地说：好的。

We're delivering a service that the people that are holding the 21,000,000 supplier currently, it's like 19,600,000.0, say, okay.

我们需要找到一种方式，让这些价值持有者或货币持有者能够便捷地向我们支付。

We need to we need to find a way that the something that the holders of the value or the holders of the currency value so that they can then pay us.

随着这个数字的增长和实际购买力的提升，它对更多企业主将变得更具吸引力。

And that as that number gets larger and and real purchasing power, it becomes more relevant to more business owners.

就像说：嘿，如果你开始注意到比特币按某些指标计算已是全球第六大或第十一大货币，你肯定想向这些持有者销售商品。

Saying like, hey, if you start to look and see that Bitcoin is the, on what some metric or the other, the sixth largest currency in the world or the eleventh largest currency in the world, you want to sell to those people.

你想出售你的商品和服务。

You want to sell your goods and services.

这也是宏观层面的考量。

It's also so that's the macro.

随着比特币被更多人认可其价值，对于销售商品和服务的人来说，这将是一个更重要的机遇。

That as Bitcoin becomes more of value by more people, it is a more significant opportunity for people selling goods and services.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们更难忽视这一点。

And it's harder for them to ignore.

以苹果公司为例，威尔提出了一个我认同的观点：苹果公司的市值目前仍高于比特币。

If you think about Apple as an example, like, Will makes a good point that I agree with is, like, Apple, the company market cap is still bigger than Bitcoin.

很难将价值储存在比你自身规模更大的事物中。

It's hard to store value in something that you're bigger than.

这种情况也会发生逆转。

Now that will flip too.

苹果可能是最后一个被比特币超越的公司。

Apple would be probably the last company that gets flipped by Bitcoin.

但若从货币角度看，他们销售的手机涉及全球远超七种货币的支付场景，而比特币作为购买力聚合体，其规模实际上超过了他们能销售的任何其他经济体。

But if you think about it relative to currencies, they're selling phones to people in more than just seven currencies in the world that Bitcoin as a purchasing power aggregate entity is larger than practically any other economy that they can sell to.

这是一个难以忽视的经济现实，尤其随着比特币规模不断扩大。

That is a hard economic fact that is difficult to ignore, and particularly as Bitcoin gets larger.

与此同时，这也是个人选择的问题。

At the same time, it is an individual decision.

因此我们真正关注的是商户层面。

And that's why we're really focused on it's the merchant.

这就像：用比特币向一家你希望长期合作的企业付款，背后存在衍生逻辑。

It's like, there is a derivative rationale to paying a business in Bitcoin that you want to be around.

举个例子，我希望我的牧场主能继续经营下去。

And the example of that is, I want my rancher to be around.

他想用比特币支付。

He wants to be paid in Bitcoin.

我就用比特币支付给他。

I pay him in Bitcoin.

但与此同时，这确实是个人的选择。

But at the same time, it really is an individual decision.

虽然宏观趋势是主要驱动力，但个体——尤其是企业主——才最有决定权，他们可以自主选择希望以何种货币结算。

So while that's the macro that's driving the driving force, the individual is the one who is in most control of as particularly an individual who's a business owner, to say, what do they want in terms of a currency to be paid in?

而这正是我们关注的焦点。

And and that's really where we focus.

支付方也有自己的考量依据。

There is also the rationale from the payer side.

我认为这更多是衍生需求。

I think it's more derivative.

具体例子是：我希望向我供应牛肉的牧场主能持续经营，而他要求比特币支付，所以我用比特币结算。

The example is I want my rancher to be around who's selling me beef and he wants to be paid in Bitcoin, so I pay him in Bitcoin.

我很重视我的医生，如果她要求比特币支付，并且我知道持有比特币能让她更可能继续执业。

I value my doctor if she wants to be paid in Bitcoin, and I know that she's more likely to be around if she has Bitcoin.

所以如果她想要比特币，我就会用比特币支付。

So if she wants to be paid in Bitcoin, I'll pay her in Bitcoin.

真正的驱动力在于商户的认知：他们理解比特币的价值存储功能，因此接受比特币支付是最理性的选择，因为这是最高效的获取方式。

The driving force is the merchant saying, I understand why Bitcoin stores value, and therefore, it's rational for me to accept Bitcoin as payment because it's the most efficient way to get.

所以我们真正将其视为买卖双方之间的动态博弈。

And so we really view it as it it is something that is dynamic between buyer and seller.

卖方才是掌控局面的一方。

The seller is the one in control.

随着更多商家理解比特币对世界的价值，对他们来说，接受比特币支付就成为推动这一转变的理性选择——‘我将为你提供比特币支付选项’。

And as more sellers understand why Bitcoin is a value to the world, it just becomes a rational thing for them to do to drive the shift to say, I'm going to give you the option to pay me in Bitcoin.

我不会固执己见地宣称‘拒绝法币’，尽管对那些这样做的企业，我完全支持。

I'm not gonna cut off the my notices by my face and say, I'm not gonna accept fiat, even though for businesses that do that, more power to them.

要知道，只有少数企业能制定这类规则。

You know, a few businesses will be able to dictate those type of terms.

但对理解比特币价值存储功能的商家而言，从提供支付选项开始才是最理性的做法。

But starting with an option is the most rational thing to do for a business owner that understand why it stores value.

如果将理解比特币的人数扩大10倍甚至100倍，就会有更多人意识到：开放这种支付方式才是最高效的选择。

And if you just multiply the number of people that understand Bitcoin by 10 or a 100, then there's more people who are also going to figure out why it's most efficient to just open it up as an option to be paid that way.

普雷斯顿，给听众们分享点行业内幕吧。

A little inside baseball for your listeners, Preston, here.

如果他们曾从事软件开发或创办过软件公司，创业者通常会避免涉足双边市场。

If they've ever worked in software development or built a company, a software company, a lot of times entrepreneurs, they'll avoid two sided markets.

这种模式构建起来非常困难。

They're very difficult to build.

我曾在Stack Overflow构建过这样的平台。

I built one before at Stack Overflow.

那是个招聘网站，需要同时对接雇主和求职者。

Had a recruiting site where you have employers and then you have employees or prospective employees, applicants.

搭建过程中你会不断思考：该优先服务哪一端？

And you build that and you're like, What do we focus on?

是聚焦雇主需求，还是服务Stack Overflow社区里寻找职位的开发者？

Do we focus on the employer side of it or do we focus on the developers over here in the Stack Overflow world that are trying to get jobs?

我总会回归互联网上最原始的双边市场案例——在线约会平台。

And I always go back to the original two sided marketplace on the internet, which is online dating.

在异性恋市场中，这个道理显而易见。

And for the heterosexual marketplace out there, you know, it's very obvious.

你面对的是一个双边市场，但只有一边真正重要。

You have a two sided market and only one side matters.

如果有美女用户，你就有个约会应用。

If you have hot girls, then you have a dating app.

如果没有美女用户，那你就没有约会应用。

And if you don't have hot girls, then you don't have a dating app.

所以当你构建双边市场时，最好问问自己：在这个双边市场中，谁是那些‘美女用户’？

And so whenever you're building a two sided marketplace, it's a good idea to ask yourself, who are the hot girls in this two sided marketplace?

对吧？

Right?

这是个简单实用的经验法则。

That's an easy sort of heuristic to go through.

在这个案例里，显然就是商家。

And in this case, it's obviously the merchants.

对吧？

Right?

如果获取他们服务或产品的唯一方式（或优惠方式）是用比特币支付，那么人们自然会选择用比特币付款。

If the only way or if the discounted way to get their services or the products is to pay in Bitcoin, then people are going to pay you in Bitcoin.

他们就是‘美女用户’。

They're the hot girls.

这正是我们优化ZapRite的方向。

That's just what we're optimizing ZapRite for.

是的。

Yeah.

我经常用这个例子思考——不是约会应用那个——只要加油站愿意收美元，我就会用美元支付。

I like to think about I use the example a lot, not the dating app one, but I'll pay the gas station in dollars so long as they're willing to take my dollar.

但如果他们开放机会并创造用比特币支付的激励，我就会选择用比特币支付。

But if they open up the opportunity and then they create an incentive for me to pay in Bitcoin, I'm gonna pay in Bitcoin.

是啊。

Yeah.

但这就是为什么这是一个由卖家或商家驱动的转变。

But that's why it's a a seller or merchant driven shift.

不过另一件事是，随着比特币购买力的增强，对于新接触的人来说，你会经历这样的情况：你可能会把1%的钱投入比特币，然后比特币会涨10倍、100倍，最终它在你储蓄中的占比会从10%变成90%。

The other thing though is, as Bitcoin increases in purchasing power, this is just something for people that are new that's gonna happen to you, and you just kinda have to accept it, is you're going to put like 1% of your money in Bitcoin, and then Bitcoin's going to go up 10 times and a 100 times, and it's going to go from 10% to 90% of your savings.

当你处于比特币几乎代表了你全部储蓄的境地时——就像我、威尔或越来越多长期持有比特币的人一样——你实际上会需要那些消费渠道。

And once you get into a position where Bitcoin represents pretty much all of your savings, like someone like myself or someone like Will or increasingly a lot of people that have held Bitcoin for a long time, you actually want those outlets.

有人会说，花掉比特币是不理性的，因为你知道它每年都在以X%的幅度上涨。

Like, someone would say, well, it's not rational to spend their Bitcoin because it's, you know, going up x percent a year.

但如果你几乎100%的资金都存放在这种随时间增值的更好货币形式中，你会希望流动性来源更加多样化，而不仅仅是能兑换回美元的地方。

But if it's if you have a 100% of your money or close to it in the better form of money that has appreciated over time, you actually want your liquidity to be more diverse than just somebody that allows you to convert it back into dollars.

你会主动寻找这类商家。

You're you're actively looking for those businesses.

这也是我们许多商家发现的——我们举这个例子可能有点随机，但这种现象正变得越来越普遍。

And that's what a lot of our merchants have found is they actually say, like and we have we use this example because it's kind of random, but it seems to be happening more and more frequently.

我们平台上有牙医。

We have dentists on the platform.

牙医们表示：'我要接受比特币支付，这将成为我的经营策略之一'。

Dentists say, I'm gonna I wanna accept Bitcoin as money, and I'm gonna make this part of my strategy.

他们向当地社区发出蝙蝠信号，宣告接受比特币。

And they put bat signal out to the people in their area that they accept Bitcoin.

比特币用户无处不在，于是他们开始获得新客户。

There's Bitcoiners everywhere, and then they start getting new customers.

如果将其纳入经营策略，这是完全合理的。

If you build it into the strategy, it makes sense.

但现实情况是，很多人绝大部分储蓄都是比特币，这些人需要每天使用它来维持生活并改善生活品质。

But there is also this reality that there's a lot of people that are having the vast majority of all their savings of Bitcoin, and those people need to spend it every day to survive and to better their lives.

所以对于那些只将1%资产配置比特币的人来说，这并不直观，但再过几年情况就会不同。

And so that is not as intuitive to somebody that only has one percent of their money in Bitcoin, but that's not them for a few more years.

普雷斯顿 真有意思。

Preston Fascinating.

我想在结束前再问最后一个偏离支付话题的问题。

I want to change just one final question before we wrap things up, it's off topic from the payment stuff we were just talking about.

在我看来，从政策角度而言，全球竞争态势正日趋激烈。

It seems to me like from a policy standpoint, things are really heating up from a global competition standpoint.

我好奇你们是否也这么看，对这个议题有什么见解。

I'm curious if you guys see it the same and just, I guess, any thoughts that you have on that particular talking point.

哈里 是的。

Harry Yeah.

作为美国公民，我经常为此担忧，我认为自己是个爱国者。

I mean, I worry about this frequently being a United States citizen and, you know, wanting I consider myself a patriot.

我热爱美国。

I like The United States.

我希望美国能采取支持比特币的立场，这对国家未来至关重要。

I would like The United States to take a pro Bitcoin stance because I think it's, vital for the future of our country.

没错。

Yeah.

我们相比其他国家拥有巨大优势，联邦制传统和第十修正案下50个主权州会竞相成为比特币发展的优质司法管辖区——无论是商业还是支付等领域。

I think we have a huge outsized advantage compared to other countries and that we have a strong history of federalism in the tenth amendment and that we have 50 sovereign states that are going to try to outcompete themselves on being a good jurisdiction for Bitcoin to operate in, whether it's for businesses or for payments or whatever it is that they're going to be competing over that.

但有些小国行动更灵活，比如萨尔瓦多就先行一步。

But there are smaller countries out there that can be a little bit more nimble and have been to date, like El Salvador.

不过你提到的全球竞争，我认为美国最终会胜出有两大原因。

However, that global competition that you talk about, I ultimately think The United States is well poised for two reasons.

第一是我们已经拥有雄厚资金基础，对吧？

One is we already have a lot of money, right?

我们在讨论货币，而我们生产了大量的货币。

And we're talking about money and we produce a lot.

因此，就美国公民乃至政府获取比特币的程度而言，我们拥有先发优势。

And so that to the extent that the citizens of The United States and therefore the government obtains Bitcoin, we have a head start.

第二点，每个比特币极端主义者都应该是第十修正案的极端拥护者，因为各州本身——我认为最近几年越来越习惯于展现其主权力量，证明它们能做出独立的主权决策，无论是关于比特币还是其他事务。

And two is every Bitcoin maximalist should be a tenth amendment maximalist because the states themselves, I think recently in the last couple of years are getting more comfortable flexing their sovereign muscles and proving that they can make independent sovereign decisions, whether it's Bitcoin or otherwise.

它们正在这样做，而且很多行为对比特币有利。

They're doing it and a lot of it is to the benefit of Bitcoin.

是的。

Yeah.

我想补充的是，我认为Saylor说的有一点很正确，他指出比特币作为交易媒介存在争议，而麦迪逊大道的房地产则没有这种争议。

And then what what I'd add is I think, you know, one of the things that Saylor said that I think is right, he pointed out that that there's something controversial about Bitcoin as a medium exchange, and there's something that's not controversial about Madison Avenue real estate.

确实。

Sure.

如果比特币作为货币并用于支付存在争议，那这已经是现实。

If it's controversial that Bitcoin is money and that it's going to be used as facilitate payments, it's like, that is a reality.

并不是说我们在这一点上不够清醒，但我认为它作为价值存储的争议性更大。

It's not that I don't think we're not naive in that respect, but but I also think that it's even more controversial that it's a store of value.

我认为，必经之路就是穿越火海。

You know, I think that the heat that comes is the only way through the fire, essentially.

政府也需要资金，它们会明白这一点。

And that governments need money too, and they're gonna figure that out.

许多已经意识到了。

Many are already.

无论是全球算力竞争，还是世界局势似乎比任何金融资产价格更动荡——考虑到正在发生的全球冲突。

And that whether it's global competition on hash rate or it's the world seems to be a little bit volatile beyond, you know, the price of any financial asset just in terms of what's happening, you know, in terms of global conflict.

对吧？

Right?

但比特币实际上是一种良好的货币形式，人人都能交易，它能创造并协调经济激励，而这种经济激励对大多数人来说是最优的。

But that it's actually Bitcoin or it's a good form of money that everyone can trade that creates and aligns economic incentives, and that economic incentive is maximal to the most amount of people.

因此全世界的人都有动力去挖比特币。

And so everyone has an incentive to mine Bitcoin across the world.

尽管短期内有些政府会对比特币采取更严格的限制，但随着比特币的崛起和它展现出更强的竞争力——我想这就是你之前提到的方向。

And even though there's some governments that will be more restrictive to it in the short term, as Bitcoin rises and as Bitcoin presents a more competitive I think this is the direction you were talking about.

它正在给美元施加更具竞争性的压力。

It's providing more competitive pressure to the dollar.

但这并不意味着世界上任何国家——无论他们是谁——会愿意放弃通过本国货币获取的权力。

Doesn't mean that any country in the world, regardless of who they are, is necessarily gonna want to give up the power that they extract through their currency.

在全球范围内，这种货币可能是美元、欧元或日元。

And globally, that could be the dollar or the euro or the yen.

但在国家内部，比如俄罗斯这样的国家。

But then also internal to the country, it's something like Russia.

他们不愿意将卢布的控制权交给比特币。

Like, they don't wanna give control of the ruble to Bitcoin.

而比特币就像顺流而下的水。

And Bitcoin's like water moving downhill.

它会找到最高效的路径，但始终向下流动。

It's going to find the most efficient path, but it's moving downhill.

最终，当人们——无论是民族国家、企业、地方政府还是当地社区——理解这一点后，他们都会意识到参与其中比置身事外更符合自身利益。

And ultimately, as people figure it out, whether it's a nation state, a corporation, an individual state local community, they're all going to figure out that it's in their best interest to participate rather than not.

一旦参与进来，他们就成为全球交易网络的一部分，这时合作的动力就会超过对抗。

And then once they're participating, they're part of this global trading network and there's an incentive to cooperate rather than than being adversarial.

这未必会立即带来世界和平，但它将成为协调经济激励的力量，引导世界重回那个方向。

It's not necessarily gonna immediately result in world peace, but it's going to be this thing that aligns economic incentives to steer the world back in that direction.

我认为在宏观层面上，这是非常积极的发展。

And I think that that is, at the most macro level, the very positive thing.

然后它对每个微观个体和每个经济决策都做同样的事，让每个人都能从那种全球背景中独立出来，并在比特币作为世界货币的激烈竞争动态中定位自己。

And then it does the same thing for every micro individual and every economic decision to allow each individual separate from that kind of the global backdrop and Bitcoin's position in its very competitive dynamic for for world money.

为每个人提供一种工具，让他们早上起床后就能为周围的人创造价值，并储存这些价值以惠及家人和身边亲近的人。

Gives everybody a tool individually to just get up in the morning, produce value for other human beings around them, and store that value for the benefit of their family and for the people in their direct vicinity.

我认为越多人朝着那个未来努力，从现在到未来之间感受到的痛苦就会越少。

And I think that the more people that are building toward that future, the least amount of pain that's gonna be felt between here and there.

好了，各位。

Alright, guys.

给大家介绍一下你们正在做的工作吧。

Give, the audience a handoff, to the things you guys are working on.

好的。

Yeah.

来看看我们的网站zaprite.com。

Come check us out at zaprite.com.

你可以获得30天免费试用，在Twitter上@Will Cole或Noster能找到我。

You can get a thirty day free trial, and you can find me on Twitter at Will Cole or Noster.

我背不出我的MPUB，但你可以在那里找到我。

I can't recite my MPUB, but you can find me there.

对。

Yeah.

是Zaprite，拼写是z a p r i t e。

And it's Zaprite, z a p r I t e.

如果你是发行发票、在网站上设置支付链接或经营更复杂网店的企业或个人，我们目前主要专注于这类特定支付场景，而非像POS机这样的业务，不过我们也能提供POS支持。

If you're a business or individual that's either issuing invoices, payment links on a website, a more complicated web store, We're really focused on on those specific types of payments today rather than something like a point of sale, but we can help support point of sale.

但如果你经营企业，又是比特币信徒，理解比特币的价值存储属性，并且觉得：嘿，

But if you run a business, you're a Bitcoiner, you understand why Bitcoin stores value and you're thinking that, hey.

接受比特币可能很有意义，那就联系我们吧。

It might make a lot of sense to accept Bitcoin, reach out to us.

我们将直接协助您完成对接，引领您加入比特币支付的前沿领域。

We'll help deal with you directly and get you onboarded to, the vanguard of Bitcoin payments.

至于我本人，您可以找到我的著作《逐渐而非突然》，如果您仍在探索为何比特币正在淘汰其他所有货币。

And then for me, you can, find my book, Gradually Than Suddenly, if you're trails still trying to figure out why Bitcoin is obsoleting all other money.

您可以在thesafehouse.com/gradually找到这本书，注意'safe'拼写为'saif'。

You can find that at the safehouse.com/gradually, and then safe is spelled saif.

网址是thesafehouse.com/gradually。

Thesafehouse.com/gradually.

好的。

Alright.

普雷斯顿，感谢你邀请我们参加节目。

Preston, appreciate you having us on.

谢谢，普雷斯顿。

Thanks, Preston.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们会在节目说明中附上所有相关链接，下周再会。

We'll have links to all that in the show notes, and we'll catch you guys next week.

如果喜欢本期对话，请在您使用的播客平台上关注本节目。

If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use.

直接搜索《我们研究亿万富翁》即可。

Just search for We Study Billionaires.

比特币专题节目每周三更新，诚邀您成为我们的固定听众。

The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I'd love to have you as a regular listener.

如果您欣赏本期节目或有所收获，若能留下评论我们将不胜感激。

If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that.

这有助于其他听众通过搜索算法发现这期访谈。

It's something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm.

因此，如果您能帮忙撰写评论，我们将不胜感激。

So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate.

最后，感谢收听，我们下周再见。

And with that, thanks for listening, and I'll catch you again next week.

感谢收听TIP节目。

Thank you for listening to TIP.

请务必在您常用的播客应用中关注《比特币基础》，不错过任何一期节目。

Make sure to follow Bitcoin fundamentals on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on episodes.

访问我们的节目笔记、文字稿或课程，请前往investorspodcast.com。

To access our show notes, transcripts, or courses, go to the investorspodcast.com.

本节目仅供娱乐用途。

This show is for entertainment purposes only.

在做出任何决策前，请咨询专业人士。

Before making any decision, consult a professional.

本节目版权归The Investor's Podcast Network所有。

This show is copyrighted by The Investor's Podcast Network.

未经书面许可，不得进行节目联播或转播。

Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.