RWH010：高效能习惯与盖伊·斯皮尔（下）

我可以告诉你，威廉，那次会面发生的可能性很低，如果没有我之前飞去温哥华参加TED会议，很可能根本不会发生。

And I can tell you William that the meeting that happened, it's far less likely and probably it wouldn't have happened had I not previously flown to Vancouver for the TED conference.

为了你的兴趣，也希望这对听众有帮助，我受邀参加一个在七月于圣地亚哥举行的活动，我认为那里会有一些非凡的人物，我能从他们身上学到很多。

For your interest, and I hope this is relevant for the listeners, I'm having this I've been invited to something that I think that I would learn a lot from some extraordinary people there in San Diego in the July.

那正好是孩子们的假期中间。

It's in middle of the children's school holidays.

有一部分我真的很想去，因为所有这些原因。

There's a part of me that really wants to go because of all of that.

但另一部分我不想去，这在我们家被称为……

There's a part of me that doesn't want to go through the is what we would call it in my family.

但总的来说，我认为选择居住地时，最好的选择未必是哪个国家或城市拥有最好的有轨电车系统——虽然在我看来，苏黎世确实拥有世界上最好的有轨电车系统，而是你将在哪里与你最想亲近的那些人产生交集？

But in general, the willingness I think the choice of where to live, perhaps the best choice is not necessarily which country or city has the best tram system, as Zurich does certainly have the best tram system in my opinion, but where will you find yourself in the nexus of the best people that you want to have in your life?

我认为，如果我要重新搭建自己的生活环境，我会更重视自己实际拥有的关系，以及我想要与哪些人亲近。

And I think that if I was setting up my environment from scratch again, I would put far more weight on the actual relationships that I have and which people do I want to be close to.

当特德·韦克勒刚开始在伯克希尔·哈撒韦工作时，搬去奥马哈住并不愚蠢，这不仅是为了靠近沃伦，也是为了靠近奥马哈那些同样与沃伦关系密切的其他人。

It was not dumb for Ted Wexler when he started working for Berkshire Hathaway to go and live in Omaha, not just to be close to Warren, but all sorts of other people around Omaha who are also close to Warren.

是的，你刚才说——但

Yeah, you said- But

你有个问题。

you had a question.

说了点什么，这更像一个评论。

Said something, it's more of a comment.

你的书出版多年后，你开始对我说：实际上，当我谈到通过把Bloomberg终端放在不舒服的地方来减少使用，或者把图书馆放在办公室的某个位置以增加在那里的时间时，

Years after your book came out, you started to say to me, actually, when I talked about cloning Nick's sleep by putting my Bloomberg terminal somewhere uncomfortable so I wouldn't use it a lot, Or I put my library in a certain position in my office so that I would spend more time there.

你说：这些都很棒。

Were like, Those are great.

这些确实是很有用的做法，但远没有建立正确的人际关系网络重要，比如找到基金里合适的合伙人、生活中合适的CEO，以及与妻子和孩子维持良好的关系，诸如此类的事情。

Those are really useful things to do, but it's so much less important than building the right ecosystem of relationships, having the right partners in the fund, having the right CEOs in your life, and having a good relationship with your wife and kids, things like that.

我觉得你开始深化对‘构建良好生态系统’真正含义的理解，这真是一个很有趣的转变。

I thought that was a really interesting modification where you started to deepen your sense of what creating a good ecosystem actually is all about.

创造一个物理环境确实有其重要性。

There is an element of creating a physical environment that's really important.

我记得你曾经对我说过，你希望在书房里挂上所有投资人的照片。

I remember you once saying to me, you wanted to have pictures of all of your investors in your study.

盯着我。

Staring down at me.

对。

Yeah.

因为这会提醒你对他们的责任，就像沃伦在他的办公室里挂着父亲的照片一样。

Because it would remind you of your responsibility to them, just as Warren has a picture of his father in his office.

所以物理环境很重要，但我认为这进一步深化了你对什么真正让你的环境和生态系统为你服务的理解。

So the physical environment is important, but I thought that was a really interesting deepening of your view of what actually makes your environment and your ecosystem work for you.

我想分享给可能在听的人的是，我认为这是一个非常有趣的过程，因为最终的画面并不是我们所有人都能看见的。

Is what I want to share with somebody who might be listening to this is that I think it's a really fun process because it's not like the end picture is one that we can all see.

事实上，我们没有人能预见最终会是什么样子。

In fact, none of us can see the end picture of what it's going to look like.

但我想对你们听众说的是，如果你遇到一个你觉得是积极影响的人，就多花点心思给他们寄一张节日贺卡。

But my point to you, the listener, is if you come across somebody who you think is a positive influence, make that extra effort to send them a holiday card.

多花点心思邀请他们参加你举办的晚餐。

Make that extra effort to invite them to a dinner that you're having.

这并不意味着你事先就决定这个人将在你的生活中扮演关键角色。

It doesn't mean that you kind of like have decided upfront that this person is going to have this key role in your life.

只是把这些人稍微拉近一点。

Just draw those people a little bit closer to you.

而对于那些在某些方面带来负面影响的人，并不意味着你要走过去告诉他们，你决定他们不再是你生活的一部分。

And those people who negative in one way or another, it doesn't mean that you have to walk up to them and say, I've decided that you no longer should have a part of my life.

只需对他们的请求反应慢一点，让他们在你的生活中处于更边缘的位置。

Just be a little less quick to respond to their inquiries and just have them a little bit more on the periphery of your life.

这并不意味着他们对你没有价值。

That doesn't mean they're not valuable to you.

只是你决定把他们放得更远一点。

It's just that you've decided to place them a little farther away.

在如何管理时间、处理各种竞争性需求——比如友谊、家庭、孩子、是否旅行、慈善和帮助他人、管理基金、分析股票等方面，你是否有特定的原则来指导你决定如何花费时间，以及如何不花费时间？

When it comes to these decisions about how to manage your time, how to basically take care of all of these competing interests, like your friendships, your family, your kids, whether to travel or not, what to do in terms of charity and helping other people, managing your fund, analyzing stocks, Do you have particular principles that guide you to help you decide how to spend your time and how not to spend it?

这份计划是我每年拿出来看一次多一点的文件，但我发现它极其有力。

Plan It's a document that I pull out probably just a little bit more than once a year, but I found extraordinarily powerful.

在这份文件中，我首先概述了我的人生使命。

In that document, I start off with a summary of my life mission.

然后我继续列出一些由此衍生的愿望清单，这些是我希望在未来一个月、三个月、六个月、一年内实现的事情，它只是简单地列出了一些目标。

And I then go on to I kind of deal with things that flow from that, that I'd like It's a wish list of things that would be nice if they happened over the following one month, three months, six months, one year, and it kind of just lists of things.

接着，它深入我生活的各个具体领域，列出我希望达成的目标，比如我与劳里的关系、我与每个孩子的关系、我的整个家庭、我的事业。

And then it goes in particular areas of my life with similar kind of what it would be nice to achieve, and it's got my relationship with Laurie, it's got my relationship to each of my individual children, my family as a whole, my business.

我发现非常有趣的是，随着时间推移，清单上的许多事项都被划掉了，因为它们已经完成了。

And I find it very interesting how at some point so many of the things were getting struck off the list because they were getting done.

我在最后创建了一个名为‘庆祝成功’和‘从失败中学习’的清单，那些一直留在文件上、从未实现的事情，我意识到它们永远不会实现了，某种程度上它们就是一种失败，于是我把它们归入这一类。

I created a list at the end, which was titled Celebrating Success, and also Learning from Failure, some things that just continued to be on this document that never ever got done, I realised they weren't going to get done, and they were actually a failure in one way or another, and that put them in that bucket.

而成功的清单则变得异常漫长。

And then the list of successes has been extraordinarily long.

我认为，在回顾这份文件的过程中——如果你在犹太教的重要节日期间这么做，会特别有意思，因为那时是取出并回顾这份文件的绝佳时机。

I think that in the process of reviewing that document, and you'll have fun with this, if it's on the high holy days, on the high Jewish holy days, I think it's an auspicious time to pull that document out and review it.

我认为，通过思考这一点，我能够权衡和判断哪些事情该纳入，以及在哪些方面应该更加或减少关注。

I think thinking through that, that's been a time when I've been able to weigh and judge what to put in, where I should be more or less focused.

我认为，仅仅通过提问，就有一个例子。

I think that what's fascinating merely by asking so there's an example.

威廉姆斯提出了一个非常非常好的问题。

Williams asked a really, really great question.

当你提升你的友谊时，你会被问到一些非常棒的问题，这些问题需要你认真思考，或许还要想出好的答案。

And when upgrade your friendships, you'll get asked really great questions, which require you to think about them and perhaps come up with good answers.

而只要你能想出好的答案，结果就是你会过上更充实的生活。

And to the extent that you come up with good answers, the result is that you'll live a more enriched life.

我认为，当你这样做时，让我想到我在翻阅这份文件的过程中，究竟花了多少时间真正思考过优先事项。

I think that when you do that, it makes me think that I don't know how much time I've spent really thinking about priorities as I go through that document.

但仅仅因为有人问我这个问题，而且我正试图通过这份文件来应对，我认为这已经让我在人生这场游戏中领先于许多人。

But the mere fact that I'm being asked the question and the mere fact that I'm trying with that document, I think, puts me ahead of many, many people in the game.

不是那些最雄心勃勃、最成功的人也在做这件事，而是领先于许多人。

Not the most ambitious and most successful who are also doing that, but ahead of many people.

你的生活也异常广泛，对吧？

Your life also is unusually broad, right?

当我观察许多伟大的投资者、极其成功的企业家或杰出的作家等，他们的领域往往比较狭窄。

When I look at a lot of great investors or super successful business people or super successful writers and the like, they're kind of narrow.

前几天我被这一点触动了，当时我在听你的一期播客，你正在采访一位数学家，我想是大卫·萨姆特。

And I was struck by this the other day, was listening to one of your podcast episodes and you were interviewing, I think it was David Sumter, the mathematician.

很明显，你对数学非常着迷。

And it's really clear you're really fascinated by math.

同时也很明显，你对伟大的文学作品充满兴趣，你一直在阅读斯坦达尔和托尔斯泰等人的作品。

And then it's also really clear that you're fascinated by great literature and that you've been reading Stondahl and Tolstoy and stuff like that.

我想知道你为何选择在生活中追求广度，因为当你与萨姆特交谈时，你提到过一些想法，说你希望在去世前理解某些事物，那些是数学中一些优美的问题，你希望在离世前弄懂它们。

I'm wondering about that decision to have breadth in your life, because it was interesting when you were talking to Sumter, you said something about realizing that there are certain things that you wanted to understand before you died, that they were kind of beautiful problems in mathematics and you wanted to understand them before you died.

我想知道，你为何如此广泛地渴望阅读、研究伟大文学、阅读修昔底德的《伯罗奔尼撒战争史》。

I'm wondering about that breadth of wanting to read, wanting to study great literature, wanting to read Thucydides's history of the Peloponnesian war.

这仅仅是因为忠于自己吗？

Is that just a matter of being true to yourself?

因为像查理这样的人根本不读小说，对吧？

Because someone like Charlie doesn't read fiction at all, right?

不同的狭窄专注类型确实有其好处。

And there is a benefit to different types of narrow focus.

有趣的是，如果有人听了这期节目，又去听了你和大卫·萨默特的对话，就会看到一个绝佳的例子：一位成就卓著、成功的数学家，只是安静地陪着一个充满热情却知之甚少的人聊天。

So the hilarious thing is if somebody listening to this listens to the episode with David Sumter, you'll see a wonderful example of somebody who's an accomplished and successful mathematician, who's just quietly humoring a guy who's very enthusiastic and knows very little.

我们首席财务官马克·查普曼给我的反馈是：盖伊，你居然连一个该死的方程式都没问他。

And one of the feedbacks I got from our CFO, Mark Chapman, is Guy, you didn't ask him about even one of the damned equations.

嘿，我觉得这次访谈很棒，盖伊，但让我从我们之间的互动中举个个人例子吧。

Hey, I enjoyed the interview, Guy, but look, I can make this personal or take a personal anecdote from our interactions.

我记得我问过你关于马塞尔·普鲁斯特的《追忆似水年华》。

I can remember asking you about In Search of Lost Time by Marcel Proust.

你说这本书对你产生了巨大影响。

And you said that the book had a huge impact on you.

当你这么说的时候，我感受到的是一种嫉妒，因为你经历了这本书带来的那种体验。

And what I experienced when you said that was a sense of envy, that you'd had the experience around the book.

我将这种对威廉·格林阅读这本书的经历所产生的嫉妒感理解为：如果我能抽出时间读完这本书，我的人生将会更加丰富和美好。

And the way I would interpret that feeling of envy that I had for William Green's experience having read that book was that my life would be richer and better if I found the time to read that book.

我认为我可以坦率地说，我确实没有读过这本书，这很容易说。

And I think that I can honestly say that I've not read the book, that's easy to say.

但我认为，如果在其他条件都相同的情况下，我一生结束时却从未读过《追忆似水年华》，我的人生将会变得贫瘠。

But I think that my life would be a less rich life if all other things being equal, I came to the end of it not having read in search of lost time.

我认为，我们必须深深尊重那些如我对你读过而我未读过的嫉妒感般浮现的情绪，因为谁也不知道这种情绪背后隐藏着什么。

And I think that we need to deeply respect the feelings that come up like that feeling of envy that I had for your having read it and my having not read it, because who knows what lies at the end of that.

我并不是为了好奇而好奇。

And I'm not being curious for the sake of being curious.

我认为，不尊重这些情感并付诸行动，就是对自己生命的不敬，是对自身在世间是谁、你注定成为谁的神秘性的不敬。

I think that not to respect those feelings and to act on them is a kind of a disrespect of your own life, mystery of who you are on the planet and who you're destined to become.

因此，对我来说，黎曼猜想是否最终被证明，并不仅仅是一件我临死前必须亲眼见过的博物馆藏品。

So for me, it's not just that Riemann's hypothesis, if it ever gets proven or not, is like a museum piece that I need to have seen before I die.

而是或许，如果我去更多地了解它，我会在自己身上发现一些东西，从而让我过上更好、更丰富、更有意义的生活。

It's that perhaps if I go and kind of learn more about it, I will uncover things in myself which will enable me to live a better, richer, more meaningful life.

如果我不去接触它，我就是否认了自己命运的一部分。

And I'll be denying a part of my destiny, if you like, if I don't engage with it.

我们必须过真正忠于自我的生活。

We have to live lives that are true to ourselves.

当我有机会发挥这种好奇心时，我会感到更快乐。

And I'm far happier when I have the opportunity to exercise that curiosity.

如果有人指出，如果我不沉迷于这些好奇心，我会更成功，我对这种说法的回答是：那并不是更成功的人生。

And I have no interest in if somebody could point out that I would be, quote, more successful if I didn't indulge in these curiosities, my answer would be that's not a more successful life.

我们不知道这些好奇心会引领我们走向何方，会带来怎样的洞见。

We don't know where these curiosities lead and what insights come out of them.

所以我刚刚想说，几周前，我私下里和一位年轻而非常聪明的对冲基金经理进行了一次谈话。

So I was just going to say, I had a conversation with a young, very smart hedge fund manager a few weeks ago, just privately.

他显然将自己的基金很大程度上建模于NOMAD公司中尼克和扎克的方法。

And he clearly had modelled his fund very much on NOMAD and Nick and Zach's approach at NOMAD.

因此，他并不试图以任何方式最大化管理的资产规模。

And so he wasn't trying to maximize assets under management in any way.

只是关于回报，绝对回报。

Was just about returns, absolute returns.

根本不在乎管理巨额资金。

Just didn't care about managing an enormous amount of money.

我记得他跟我说过：是啊，关键在于你追求的是什么？

And I remember him saying to me, Yeah, it's all about what are you optimizing for?

这种说法其实非常简单，却极其深刻。

It's actually such a simple way to put it that's really profound.

当你审视自己的人生时，不妨问问：我究竟在追求什么？

When you look at your life just to say, Well, what am I optimizing for?

我是追求最高回报、最多金钱、最大利润吗？

Am I optimizing for the highest returns for the most money, the most profits?

我还是追求平衡的生活、幸福的生活、更丰富的生活？

Am I optimizing for balanced life, for a happy life, for a richer life?

我认为这对每个人来说都截然不同。

And I think it's very different for each of us.

对我来说，弄清楚这一点很难，因为我觉得外界有巨大的压力，要求你变得更成功、赚更多的钱、赢得别人的认可，尤其是来自我们那种崇尚牛津、哥伦比亚、哈佛等精英私立学校的文化背景。

It's been hard for me to figure that out because I think there's so much external pressure to become more successful, to make a better living, to impress people, particularly from the culture we came from of going to fancy private schools in Oxford and Columbia and Harvard and places like that.

你很容易受到外界压力的影响，去成为那个并非真实的自己。

You're very prey to external pressure to be something that you're not.

这说得通吗？

Does that make any sense?

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，在基金刚成立或某位人士职业生涯初期，追求资产管理规模或回报率或许并不是最愚蠢的选择。

It's very clear to me that maybe in the very early hours of a fund's existence or of this particular individual's career, optimizing for AUM or returns is not the dumbest thing in the world.

但我认为，即便如此，这可能仍然是最愚蠢的做法，或者用我想到的词来说，简直是荒谬的。

But I think that even then it may well be the dumbest thing in the world or asinine was the word that came to mind.

为什么？

Why?

因为这个人去世时，到底留下了多少钱？

Because how much money did the person leave when they died?

这位亿万富翁，他把所有财富都留下了。

The billionaire, he left all of it.

我认为，对我而言，富足或幸福的生活是不断涌现出非凡机会的生活，因为我一直在我的环境中投入大量精力，这些机会可能只是享受一顿美妙的晚餐、一次精彩的会面，或获得深刻的洞见。

And I think that a rich life or a happy life for me is one in which extraordinary opportunities keep showing up because I've invested so much in my environment, where extraordinary opportunities just to have a wonderful dinner, to have a wonderful meeting, to get a profound insight.

一种充满巨大选择可能性的生活，我曾在一些演讲中用过这个思想实验，将自己与切尔西·克林顿作比较。

A life that's embedded with massive optionality and something I've said in I've used this thought experiment in some talks where I compare myself to Chelsea Clinton.

在美國政治生活中，誰擁有更多的選擇可能性呢？

Who has more optionality certainly in American political life?

誰更有可能被提名擔任世界衛生組織、證券交易委員會、世界銀行的負責人，成為參議員，或任何其他重要的公職，同時還能受邀參加最有趣的婚禮、最精彩的派對，擁有最優秀的朋友圈？

Who's more likely to be nominated to be the head of the World Health Organization, the SEC, the World Bank, become a senator, anything, any interesting position of high public office, but also get invited to the most interesting weddings, the most interesting parties, have the most interesting set of friends.

我认为，毫无疑问，切尔西·克林顿在这场游戏中胜过我，因为她的父亲曾是总统。

I think that hands down Chelsea Clinton wins that game against me because her parents her father was president.

但她本人也非常聪明，拥有自己独特的才华和资本。

But she's also a bright person who's got plenty of her own stuff to bring to the table.

我可以选择一种为自己创造这种选择可能性的生活，尽管远不及切尔西·克林顿所拥有的程度。

I can choose a life in which I create that kind of optionality around me, certainly not to the degree that it is around Chelsea Clinton.

但无论这些机会以何种方式围绕着我，或者当我没有这些机会时，我并不追求纸面上的银行余额数字，对我来说，显然你应当优化的是这些。

But where it's around me in one way or another, or where I don't have it, and I'm not optimizing for what number on a piece of paper a bank balance, it's absolutely clear to me that you want to optimize.

你不必变得像切尔西·克林顿那样，她只是一个例子。

You don't have to become like Chelsea Clinton, she's just one example.

我提到的另一个例子是威廉，如果之前你已经听过我说过，抱歉，但我认为这个例子非常有力。

The other example that I give William, which forgive me if you've already heard it from me, but I think it's very powerful.

假设有一种特殊的武器爆发了，它摧毁了所有的银行余额和所有权，但不会摧毁实际的企业和财产。

Assume that a very special weapon goes off that destroys all bank balances and all ownership, but it doesn't destroy actual business and actual property.

这是一种奇怪的武器。

It's a weird kind of weapon.

因此，它让一切归零。

And so it sets the slate clean.

每个人都从零开始。

Every individual is starting from zero.

盖伊·斯皮尔从零开始，沃伦·巴菲特也从零开始。

Guy Spier starting from zero and Warren Buffett starting from zero.

即使在沃伦·巴菲特这个年纪，谁会拥有最好的机会组合呢？

Who would have, even at Warren Buffett's age, who would have the best set of opportunities?

谁最有可能积累的不仅是财务财富，还有有趣的生活、有意义的人际关系和宝贵的机会？

Who would have the best opportunity to accumulate not just wealth in terms of financial wealth, but also interesting life, interesting relationships, interesting opportunities?

盖·斯皮尔，沃伦·巴菲特。

Guy Spier, Warren Buffett.

毫无疑问是沃伦·巴菲特。

Hands down Warren Buffett.

我认为有趣的是，这将他巨大的财务财富与更庞大的、无论你如何称呼的非财务财富区分开来。

And I think that what's interesting about that is that it separates his enormous financial wealth from the even more enormous, whatever you want to call it, non financial wealth that he has.

我想，如果我们之前在讨论某种关系时，提到过冰山一角——水面上的部分和水面下的部分。

I think that if we were talking, I think earlier on the relationship, was using with regard to something or other, the tip of the iceberg, what's above the waterline, what's below the waterline.

我们看到并吸引我们注意力的是沃伦·巴菲特的财务财富。

We see, and it draws our attention Warren Buffett's financial wealth.

但我们看不到的是水面下的部分，即他的人际关系、机会以及那些以各种方式感激他的人，这些在某种程度上造就了水面上的财富。

But what we don't see is what's below the waterline, this kind of non financial wealth of relationships, opportunities, people who are grateful to him in one way or another, that creates in a certain way the wealth that's above the waterline.

我认为，那些只追求财富或资产管理回报的人，是在关注冰山一角——水面之上的部分，这种做法简直愚蠢。

I think that the person who's optimizing for wealth or who's optimizing for assets under management return is trying to look at the tip of the iceberg, what's above the waterline, and is kind of asinine.

但水面之下的部分才是真正实质且极其重要的东西。

But what's below the waterline, that is what's really meaty and that's what's really, really important.

这就是为什么当你和别人做交易时，像沃伦告诉我们那样，总是留一点余地、让他们觉得还有更多可得、始终让他们感到自己占了便宜，这才是世界上最聪明的做法。

That's why it is the smartest thing in the world when you do a deal with somebody, as Warren tells us that he does, to always leave something on the table, to always leave them wanting more, to always leave them feeling like they had a good deal.

你是在逐步积累这些。

You're building this up.

对于听众来说，我和威廉，你回答得极其出色。

For the listener, I and William, you answered it so extraordinarily well.

我收到了沃伦寄来的一张节日贺卡，是圣诞卡，我拍了照片发给了威廉。

I received a holiday card from Warren, a Christmas card, and I took a photograph and sent it to William.

我真心想知道，我说，威廉，他为什么要这么做？

My question genuinely, I said, William, why on earth is he doing this?

他和我一起吃了午饭。

He had lunch with me.

我对他做任何好事都没有意义。

There's nothing good I can do for him.

为了更具体一点，因为你可能在谦虚，不愿承认这一点。

And just to be more specific about this, because you're probably trying to be humble and not admit it.

但沃伦所做的就是说，你的年度报告很棒。

But the thing that Warren did is he said, Your annual report is great.

所以在过去的几年里，他已经这样做了两次。

And so he's done this twice over the last few years.

所以他实际上是在告诉你：我读了你的年度报告，非常棒。

So he's telling you basically, I read the annual report and it's great.

有一次他这么说了，还补充道：你的合伙人一定很高兴。

One time he did it and he said, And your partners must be very happy.

所以你问我这个问题：为什么？

And so the question you asked me was, why?

他为什么要这么做？

Why does he do it?

没错。

Exactly.

所以，这个人如果为了给盖伊·斯皮尔发这封信而动用哪怕一丁点脑力，那他肯定不是在为伯克希尔·哈撒韦的回报率做优化。

So this is a guy who's not optimizing for returns in Berkshire Hathaway if he's spending even one fraction of a brain cell to send this letter to Guy Spier.

我认为答案在于，他正在构建水面之下的东西。

And I think that the answer is that he's building what's below the waterline.

我来告诉你，我正在和一个实习生合作一个项目，我们正在仔细研究，伯克希尔要成功收购一家规模较大的欧洲企业，需要具备哪些条件。

He's building this enormous wealth of So I'll tell you, I'm working on a project with an intern in which we're looking very carefully at what would it take for there to be a successful purchase by Berkshire of a rather large European business.

我们将接触他们的董事会，与他们探讨为什么他们应该考虑将企业出售给伯克希尔。

We're going to approach their board and talk to them about why they might want to consider selling it to Berkshire.

我们是以一种细致入微的方式去接触他们的。

And we're coming at them in nuanced way.

这绝不是一种粗俗的做法。

We're not kind of this is not going to be a crass approach.

我这么做并不是为了获得任何费用或个人利益，而是因为我深知，如果这件事真的发生了，而我能被载入这笔交易的历史，那就是我对沃伦的一种回报方式。

And I'm doing it without any interest in getting any fee or any personal self benefit, but because I know that if it were to happen and I could get written into the history of that deal, that would be a way to repay Warren.

我认为，有数万乃至数十万人也有这样的感受。

And I think that he's got tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people feeling like that.

这对伯克希尔·哈撒韦有好处，但对成功、高效、幸福的人生也有好处。

It's good for Berkshire Hathaway, but it's good for a successful, productive, happy life.

你希望过一种生活，其中积极的事情源源不断，多到你只能选择其中少数几件去做。

You want to live a life in which there are so many positive things coming at you that you can only do a small number of them.

你要创造这样的条件。

You want to create the conditions for that.

要做到这一点，就不能以回报或资产管理规模为目标，而要以我不清楚是谁最先提出的理念为目标。

You do that by not optimising for returns or AUM, by optimising for I don't know who originated this.

你要培养善意。

You want to grow goodwill.

你要成为那种人们希望与你共处一室的人。

You want to be somebody that people want to have in the room.

人们希望你参与他们的交易，希望你加入他们的基金，希望你成为他们的团队成员，因为你一直在努力让周围发生美好的事情。

People want to have you on their deal, that people want to have you in their fund, that people want you on their team because you're working constantly to have good things happen around you.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的介绍。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

你知道是什么让最优秀的企业脱颖而出吗？

You know what sets the best businesses apart?

是他们如何利用创新将复杂性转化为增长。

It's how they leverage innovation to turn complexity into growth.

这正是亚马逊广告在AWS人工智能支持下所做的事情。

That's exactly what Amazon Ads is doing, powered by AWS AI.

每天，亚马逊广告处理数十亿次实时决策，在价值310亿美元的广告生态系统中优化广告效果。

Every day, Amazon ads processes billions of real time decisions, optimizing ad performance across a $31,000,000,000 advertising ecosystem.

结果是广告活动运行速度提升30%，并实现大规模的可衡量业务影响。

The result is campaigns that run 30% faster and deliver measurable business impact at scale.

这正是亚马逊自身实现增长的方式。

And this is how Amazon itself drives growth.

他们的智能AI将营销从资源密集型流程转变为智能化的自主系统，最大化投资回报率，并赋能营销人员专注于创意与战略。

Their agentic AI transforms marketing from a resource heavy process into an intelligent autonomous system that maximizes ROI and empowers marketers to focus on creativity and strategy.

亚马逊广告正在证明，人工智能驱动的广告不仅仅是未来，更是新的竞争优势。

Amazon Ads is proving that AI driven advertising isn't just the future, it's the new competitive advantage.

更棒的是，每一家企业都可以应用亚马逊内部完善的同一套创新方法论。

And better yet, every enterprise can apply the same innovation playbook that Amazon perfected in house.

前往 aws.comai/rstory 了解亚马逊广告的故事。

See the Amazon ad story at aws.comai/rstory.

网址是 aws.com/ai/rstory。

That's aws.com/ai/rstory.

初创公司行动迅速。

Startups move fast.

借助人工智能，它们交付速度更快，并更早吸引企业客户。

And with AI, they're shipping even faster and attracting enterprise buyers sooner.

但大单带来了更大规模的安全与合规要求。

But big deals bring even bigger security and compliance requirements.

SOC 2 并不总是足够。

A SOC two isn't always enough.

正确的安全措施可以促成交易，也可能导致交易失败。

The right kind of security can make a deal or break it.

但哪位创始人或工程师能抽时间离开公司建设去处理这些事呢？

But what founder or engineer can afford to take time away from building their company?

Vanta 的人工智能和自动化技术能在几天内让您的企业准备好承接大单。

Vanta's AI and automation make it easy to get big deals ready in days.

Vanta 持续监控您的合规状态，确保未来的交易不会被阻拦。

And Vanta continuously monitors your compliance so future deals are never blocked.

此外，Vanta 会伴随您一同成长，并在您需要的每一步提供可靠支持。

Plus Vanta scales with you, backed by support that's there when you need it every step of the way.

随着人工智能改变法规和买家的期望，Vanta 深知所需条件及时机，并已打造了最快、最简便的路径帮助您达成目标。

With AI changing regulations and buyers' expectations, Vanta knows what's needed and when, and they've built the fastest, easiest path to help you get there.

因此，认真的初创企业都会早早借助 Vanta 实现合规。

That's why serious startups get secure early with Vanta.

我们的听众可通过 vanta.com/billionaires 获得 1000 美元优惠。

Our listeners get $1,000 off at vanta.com/billionaires.

访问 vanta.com/billionaires 可享受 1000 美元优惠。

That's vanta.com/billionaires for $1,000 off.

新的一年到了，这正是实现你一直以来梦想创业的最佳时机。

It's the new year, which means that it's the best time to finally start the business you've been dreaming about.

就在几年前，我启动了自己的电子商务业务，而 Shopify 正是我起步所需的完美工具。

Just a couple years ago, I launched my own e commerce business and Shopify was exactly the tool I needed to get started.

当许多人不断将梦想推迟到明年时，我要告诉你，现在就是抓住眼前机遇的时候。

While many people continually push off their dreams until the next year, I am here to tell you that now is the time to capitalize on the opportunities right in front of you.

Shopify 为你提供了在线和线下销售所需的一切。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数百万创业者，包括我自己，都已经从普通人跃升为刚刚起步的生意人。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started.

你可以从数百个精美的模板中选择，并自定义使用其内置的 AI 工具撰写产品描述或编辑产品图片。

Choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize and use their built in AI tools to write product descriptions or edit product photos.

随着你的成长，Shopify 也将一路相伴，与你共同进步。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you every step of the way.

在2026年，停止等待，立即用Shopify开始销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月1美元的试用版，今天就开始在shopify.com/wsb销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

那就是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

在今年初，让Shopify陪伴在你身边，聆听你的第一个声音。

Hear your first This new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

当我写《更富有、更睿智、更快乐》这本书时，我提到的一个概念是‘复利式善意’，这个想法看似简单，人们很容易忽略它，但它却具有巨大的力量。

When I wrote about you in Richer, Wiser, Happier, one of the things I talked about was this concept of compounding goodwill, which I I think is it's such a simple idea that it's very easy for people for their eyes to glaze over and not really to concentrate on it, but it's hugely powerful.

是的，一方面，当你行为得体时，你会更快乐；但另一方面，这种行为会带来大量的回报。

Has this, yeah, mean, A, it makes you happier when you behave decently, but B, there's so much reciprocation.

有太多人真心希望你好，想以你帮助沃伦的方式来帮助你。

Are just so many people out there who wish you well and want to help in the way that you want to help Warren at this point.

很多人愿意帮助你。

Many people want to help you.

让我感到有趣的是，我在推特上收到了好几个关于这一点的问题，特别是关于累积善意。

It was interesting to me that I got several questions over Twitter about exactly this, about compounding goodwill.

一个叫米科·迪宗的人，他的标签是‘改善投资’，问：‘你认为在与家人和朋友的关系中，最简单的累积善意的方式是什么？'

Someone called Miko Dizon, which his tagline is Kaizen Investing said, What are the easiest ways you can compound goodwill in relationships, both with family and friends?

还有一个人叫斯图尔特·南，他问：‘在你追求累积善意的过程中，最让你有成就感的经历是什么？它如何改变了你对生活和投资的看法？'

And someone called Stuart South said, What's the most fulfilling experience you've had in your quest to compound goodwill and how has it changed your outlook on life and investing?

考虑到你多年来在累积善意方面的宏大社会实验，你对这两个问题有什么想法吗？

And I wonder if you had any thoughts on either of those questions, given your grand social experiment in compounding goodwill over many years.

我前几天突然想起来，我身上有一部分有点不太正常，社交意识也不太好，但这反而帮了我。

I literally, I was remembering the other day, so there's a side of me that's kind of slightly unhinged and doesn't have very good social awareness, which helped me in this.

我决定买一包包好的硬糖，然后把我遇到的每个人都能给一颗。

I decided to buy a packet of wrapped, hard boiled sweets and I literally gave it to every person I talked to.

我给他们一颗糖，然后问：‘你想要一颗糖吗？’

I gave them a sweet and I'd say, would you like a sweet?

我的动机来自于那些该死的哈瑞奎师那募捐者分发纸花的行为。

And I was motivated by this idea of these damned Hare Krishna fundraisers handing out paper flowers.

我想，至少这东西能吃，总比送花强。

I thought, well, at least this thing's edible, it's better than a sweet.

所以，我对提问者的回答是：从你眼前的东西开始，去做你所能看见的最好的事。

And so my answer to the questioner is start with what's in front of you and just do the best thing that you can see that's in front of you.

我认为，把糖果分发给每一个你遇到的人并没有什么不对，但可能还有更有效的策略。

Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with handing out sweets to every single person you meet, but there are probably more effective strategies.

从你眼前的事物开始，分析它，找出它的优缺点，然后决定下一步该往哪里走。

Start with something that's in front of you and then analyze it and figure out what's good and bad about it, and then figure out where you're going to go next.

没有简单而容易的答案。

There's no simple and easy answers.

适合我的方式并不适合别人。

What's right for me is not right for somebody else.

在书中，感谢信的想法实际上是一种描述所有这些内容的方式，而无需深入大量细节和各种可能的做法。

In the book, the thank you notes idea is really a way of describing all of that without having to go into enormous amounts of detail and all the ways that one can and does do it.

目前对我而言非常有激励作用的是，我确实努力去做了，虽然我觉得自己做得并不特别好，但威廉，我想和我们的小团队谈谈这件事。

Something that is very motivational for me right now is that I really try, and I don't think I'm doing a particularly good job of it, but actually, William, I want to talk to our small team about it.

如果你是我基金的投资者，我会尽力在我能力范围内让好事发生。

If you're an investor in my fund, I want to try and make good things happen to the extent that it's within my power to do that.

这可以说是一种创造善意的方式。

That's a way of creating goodwill, if you like.

因此，我努力回报人们决定将他们辛辛苦苦赚来的钱交给我这一事实。

And so I try to reward the fact that people have decided to send me some of their hard earned money.

希望回报会不错，但最近有一位合伙人，他是风险投资基金的合伙人，实际上也是我们的战略合作伙伴，同时还是我们的投资者之一。

Hopefully the returns are going to be decent, but there's somebody who's recently he is a partner in a venture capital fund and he's a strategic partner actually, and he's one of our investors.

我希望这家风险投资基金能够取得非凡的成功。

I want that venture capital fund to be extraordinarily successful.

我已安排人去审查他们的交易，看看我能否帮忙推动这些交易进展。

I've set it down to look over their deals and see if there's anything I can do to help push those deals forward.

这是一种在我周围营造善意的方式，尤其具有激励作用。

That's a way of creating goodwill around me that's particularly motivational.

我认识一个人，他给我发了一份关于我持有的一只股票的简短研究报告。

I got a guy who sent me a short thesis on one of the stocks that I own.

我非常感激他能想到我。

I really appreciate the fact that he thought of me.

我回信给他，提供了一些关于该公司的研究资料，这些资料他本人无法直接获取。

I wrote back to him with some research on the company at hand that he would not have been able to access directly.

同样，这某种程度上表明，我的做法并非毫无方向。

Again, just sort of like trying to find in a certain way that what we can see from that is that I'm not doing it in an undirected way.

我的做法是有针对性的，面向那些已经以某种方式想到我、帮助过我的人，然后试图鼓励更多这样的行为。

I'm doing it directed towards people who've already in a certain way thought of me and been helpful to me, and then try to encourage more of that behavior.

你也可以从零开始这样做。

You could do it from a standing start.

我意识到有一个行业我确实应该参与其中，那为什么不马上开始呢？

There's an industry that I realize that I really ought to be engaged with, then why not start?

想法是无穷无尽的。

The thoughts are endless.

如果要回答第二个问题，我认为对我最具变革性的事情是，我已经不再专注于糖果，而是开始写感谢信。

Think that in terms of the most transformational thing for me, to answer the second question, I do think that so I'd moved on from sweets and now I was writing thank you notes.

这是一个讲得很好的故事。

It's a well told story.

我写给莫尼什·帕拉伊的一封感谢信，感谢他出席了会议，这后来促成了一次午餐或晚餐，并引出了许多其他事情。

One of the thank you notes that I wrote was to Monish Pabrai for having attended his meeting and that led to a lunch or a dinner that led to many other things.

一封简单的感谢信带来了如此非凡的成果，但这其实并不是一封简单的感谢信，而是成千上万封感谢信的积累。

That's been an extraordinary result from one simple thank you note, but it's really not one simple thank you note, it's from many thousands of thank you notes.

因此，这是巨大成长与成功中的一小部分。

So that's one little piece of enormous growth and success.

另一个我喜欢举的例子是，我仅仅因为选择给一些人写信并定期寄送节日贺卡，就被邀请加入了哈佛商学院校友会董事会。

Another example that I like to give is that I was invited onto the Harvard Business School Alumni Board simply because I chose to write to some people and send them a regular holiday card.

我甚至不知道他们还在校友会，但这让他们对我产生了积极的印象。

I didn't even know they were on the alumni board, but it made them think of me positively.

因此，当有空缺时，也许因为我定期给他们寄节日贺卡，我的名字比其他人排得更靠前。

And so that when a space came up, perhaps I was a little bit higher on the list than some other people simply because I was sending them a regular holiday card.

我认为，针对那个人的问题，威廉，更令人着迷的不是我能讲出的故事，而是那些我根本无法讲述的故事，因为这些故事的结果以一种我们能够识别的方式实现了。

I think in answer to that person's question, William, what is more fascinating is not the stories that I can tell, but stories that I couldn't even tell, because these are kind of like where the results have come to fruition in a way that we can identify them.

我认为，在某种程度上，做这些事重新设定了游戏规则，让你根本意识不到它对你所处环境产生的影响。

I think that in a certain way, doing the stuff resets the playing field such that you're not even aware of the influence that it has on the environment in which you're operating.

我在这里给出一个简短的想法。

I'll give one short idea here.

我不知道真相是什么，但我记得一个朋友问我，我身边有最了不起的人为我工作，尤其是负责处理我注意力缺陷多动障碍的尚塔尔·哈克特，我非常感激她。

And I don't know what the truth is, but I remember a friend of mine asking, I'm sort of like, I have the most incredible people working for me, especially the person who deals with my ADHD, Chantal Hackett, and I'm extraordinarily grateful to her.

那人问，她是怎么进入你生活的？

That guy asked, how did she end up in your life?

我该怎么找到这样的人？

How do I find somebody like that?

我想说的是，这并不是像在报纸上登广告那样。

And what I want to say is it's not like you put an ad in the paper.

而是你以某种方式振动世界，以某种方式与世界互动，从而吸引某些人进入你的生活。

It's you start vibrating the world in a certain way, you start dealing with the world in a certain way and that attracts certain people into your life.

我想我其实是在用一种‘团队’版本来解释吸引力法则，对吧？

I guess I'm giving a posse version of the law of attraction really, aren't I?

著名人士——嗯，回到你刚才说的，关于你并不知道这些善意行为会产生怎样的连锁反应，过去二十五年里，你以无数种方式帮助了我，但如果我们没有在大约2015年那次你把我介绍给斯蒂格·布罗德森，我们今天根本不可能坐在这里交谈。

Famous- Well, look, to go back to what you were just saying a minute ago about how you don't know all the ways in which these acts of kindness reverberate, just you've helped me in so many different ways over the last quarter of a century, but we literally wouldn't be here talking now if you hadn't introduced me to Steig Brodersen back in probably 2015.

于是我跟他们做了一期播客访谈。

And so I did a podcast interview with them.

我想你很早就和他们做过播客节目了。

I think you had done one of the earliest podcast episodes with them.

然后你还不断推荐应该上节目的朋友。

And then you kept suggesting friends who should go on the podcast.

所以我很早就上了节目，大概是第三十三期左右。

So I was on something like the thirty third episode or something like that fairly early.

然后这些年，当理查德·怀斯的《更快乐》出版时，我又参加了活动，后来和施蒂格成了朋友，这最终引导我做了这个播客，也让我今天能邀请你来参加这个节目。

And then over the years, went on again when Richard Wiser Happier came out and then became friends with Stig, and that's ended up leading to me doing this podcast and to me having you on the podcast today.

这种例子数不胜数，过去某个行为以各种方式不断产生涟漪效应。

There are hundreds of examples of that, of different ways in which one action years ago has sort of vibrated out in all of these different ways.

我想讲一个关于今年ValueX的故事，我不记得这个想法是从哪儿冒出来的。

And I want to tell a story about ValueX this year, and I don't know where the thought came to me from.

威廉有时会参加ValueX活动，所以你会对这个故事感兴趣。

William sometimes attends ValueX, and so you'll be interested to hear this.

这是我当时发表的演讲，或者说我分享的想法。

So this is the talk that I gave, which was or the idea that I shared.

我其实并不需要拥有一艘像阿布拉莫维奇那样的地中海游艇，但我真的很希望我的某个朋友拥有。

I really don't need to own an Abramovich style yacht in the Mediterranean, But I certainly would love it if one of my friends did.

我站起来在房间里说，我真正意识到，我并不像沃伦·巴菲特或其他人那样，渴望拥有巨额财富。

And I got up in the room and I kind of said, you know, I really have realized that I don't care to have vast levels of wealth the way, say, Warren Buffet or other people do.

无论我最终能达到怎样的财富水平，我都希望在达成的过程中，身边有一群同样相当富有的朋友。

And whatever level of wealth I end up achieving, I really want to get there with a bunch of friends who are also pretty rich.

我当时对在场的人说，也就是你们所有人。

And I kind of said to the room, and that means you guys.

我希望在座的各位都能取得非凡的成功，因为我希望抵达一个地方——你们的目的地分析。

I want the people in this room to end up being extraordinarily successful because I want to get to a place, your destination analysis.

我想抵达一个地方。

I want to get to a place.

我最不希望看到的是，有人只关注回报和当下，那如果关注的是在良伴同行中抵达理想目的地呢？有优秀的伙伴，有美好的友谊？

The last thing I want is to The guy is optimizing for returns and for Now, what about optimizing for getting to the desired destination in good company, with great company, with wonderful friendships?

于是我对自己说，我决心帮助你们所有人抵达那里。

And so I kind of said, I'm dedicated to helping you guys get there.

我得从某个地方开始，而你们正是一个非常好的起点。

I got to start somewhere and you guys are a pretty good place to start.

我希望你们每个人都致力于这一点。

And I hope that you guys dedicate yourselves to that.

这番话引起了在场人的共鸣，也让我以全新的视角看待这个房间。

And it resonated with the room and made me see the room differently.

我放弃了将我的投资朋友视为竞争对手的想法，这样做会带来极大的破坏性。

Ago gave up seeing my investing friends as rivals, which is a terribly destructive thing to do.

但我从把他们看作中立的人，转变为把他们当作我团队中的一员。

But I went from seeing them as neutral to being kind of people on my team.

我还和一群朋友保持着定期在线聚会的习惯，我向他们承诺，当他们的资产管理规模达到十亿美元时，我会给他们寄一瓶大瓶香槟，我会非常高兴地送出那瓶大瓶香槟。

So I have another thing going with a group of friends that I meet with from time to time online, where I've promised them that when they get to a billion in AUM, I'm sending them a magnum of champagne I will be so happy to send that magnum of champagne out.

当我提到这一点时，看到在ValueX会议上人们纷纷前倾身体，这让我感到非常有趣。

It was fascinating for me to see what an extraordinary kind of people leaned forward in their seats at the ValueX meeting when I said that.

他们感到被赋能，被关爱，觉得自己正走在通往某个目标的路上。

And they felt empowered, they felt loved, They felt like they were on a path to somewhere.

这难道不令人兴奋吗？

How exciting is that?

我的意思是，对我来说，这比积累财富更有趣。

I mean, that for me is kind of like more interesting than building wealth actually.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个非常有力的想法。

It's a very powerful idea.

多年来，我越来越看到你努力提升他人。

I've seen you do this increasingly over the years, try to lift up other people.

我看到你以很多种方式这样做。

And I've seen you do it in a lot of ways.

其中巨大的讽刺之处在于，我认为你越这么做，就越快乐。

The great irony of it is I think you've become happier as you've done more

了。

of it.

不，不，这并不是讽刺。

No, no, It's not the irony.

非凡的结果，那种深层的喜悦在于，这实际上正是通往你自身成功的最佳路径——我不知道这样说是否过度了，但它确实是。

The extraordinary result, The kind of like the deep joy is that it's actually I I don't know if I'm overstepping the description, but it is actually the best path to success for yourself.

这难道不有点反直觉吗？

Isn't that a little counterintuitive?

我想在某种程度上，你确实得有点自私。

And I guess on some level you do have to be self interested.

你不能完全毁掉自己去帮助别人。

You can't utterly destroy yourself to help others.

所以在过程中，你必须照顾好自己。

So you have to take care of yourself in the process.

但如果你能照顾好自己，然后全力以赴帮助他人成功，迟早，事情会为你爆发。

But if you can take care of yourself and then work really hard on the success of others, sooner or later, things are going to explode for you.

昨晚我为准备我们的对话而过度投入，结果一夜未眠。

I couldn't sleep last night after working obsessively preparing for our conversation.

然后我试着上床睡觉，却睡不着。

Then I tried going to bed and I couldn't.

所以我半夜起床，读了大卫·霍金斯的书，之前我好像没读过这本书。

So I get up in the middle of the night and I was reading David Hawkins' book that I can't remember reading before.

我觉得我几乎每本书都会读好几遍。

I think I read pretty much everything multiple times.

但他曾说过，当你在照顾他人时——我这个总结可能不太准确——但基本上，当你在照顾他人时，宇宙会暗中帮你变得更成功。

But he was saying at some point that when you're taking care of other people, and I'm miss summarizing this, but basically when you're taking care of other people, the universe conspires to make you more successful anyway.

因此，他会认为，你实际上可以在某种程度上忽略自己。

So he would argue that you actually can forget about yourself to some degree.

显然，这是一种我们尚未达到的极高层次的意识。

Obviously that's a very high level of consciousness that we haven't got to.

但我确实认为，在像阿诺德·范登伯格这样的人身上，我看到了这一点：他越专注于照顾他人，就越自由、越快乐，世界就越会照顾他。

But I do think there's I see that in someone like Arnold Van den Berg, that I see the more focused he is on just taking care of other people, the more free, the happier he is, the more the world kind of takes care of him.

这听起来非常神秘，对极度理性的人来说很容易被忽视，但它有一个优势，那就是我认为它确实是真的。

It sounds very mystical and so very easy to dismiss for people who are super rational, but it just has one thing going for it, which is I think it actually happens to be true.

威廉，我们在开始这个播客之前就跟你提过，我们正在试图讨论一些并不明显、不直观的事情。

William I was telling you before we got onto this podcast that you're again, we're trying to talk about something that is not apparent and obvious.

你从阿诺德·范登伯格身上发掘出了一些极其非凡的东西。

You brought something out in Arnold Van den Berg, which is absolutely extraordinary.

你身上有种特质，让他愿意在你面前展现出这些方面。

There's something about who you are in the world that made him want to bring that out with you.

他将与你分享的许多想法也传达给了其他人和我本人，但他在播客上对你所展现的方式，以及他深入揭示自己真实面貌的程度，是格外特别的。

He's brought out many of the thoughts that he shared with you, with other people and with me personally, but the way he did it with you on the podcast and the depths that he went to, to reveal himself, who he really is as a person was extraordinarily special.

威廉，谢谢。

William Thanks.

他是一个绝佳的榜样。

He's a wonderful role model.

我的意思是，我们之前讨论过该效仿谁，而阿诺德身上有一些特质，随着我年纪渐长，我越来越觉得：没错，这些正是我真正需要学习的地方。

I mean, he, in many ways, we were talking before about who to clone and there are aspects of Arnold that the older I get, the more I'm like, Yep, that's something I really need to clone.

他那种善良、正直、关心他人以及充满活力和热情的特质。

Aspects of his kindness and decency and concern for others and exuberance and enthusiasm.

看到这些真是太棒了。

It's amazing to see.

过去几年里，我们聊了不少关于乔丹·彼得森的事，我对他的了解并不多，但我知道他在很多方面都颇具争议。

We've talked quite a bit over the last couple of years about Jordan Peterson, who I don't know a lot about, and I know is very controversial in many ways.

他是一位临床心理学家，如果你不了解他的话。

This clinical psychologist for people who don't know him.

但有一个来自他的具体观点，与戴维·霍金斯在‘力量与强制’等理念中所教授的内容非常相似，我真的很想在你离开前让你谈谈这个。

But there's one specific idea that comes from him that's very similar to what David Hawkins would teach in things like power versus force that I really wanted you to talk about before I let you go.

因为我也认为这是一种生活的根本原则，与你始终坦诚面对自己的错误和局限、不试图美化真相的理念密切相关。

Because I also think it's a kind of master principle of life, and it's very related to this idea of you always being very candid about your mistakes, your limitations, not trying to sugarcoat the truth.

你能谈一下关于

Can you talk one:fifty about

你从乔丹·彼得森那里学到的关于诚实与真实的重要性吗？

what you've learned from Jordan Peterson about the importance of honesty and truthfulness?

是的。

Yeah.

所以让我想到的是，他在社交媒体上说过一句话：如果你想体验一场冒险，那就说出真相，这在很大程度上概括了戴维·霍金斯的思想。

So the thought, what comes up for me is that something that came up somewhere on social media where he said, if you want an adventure, tell the truth, which kind of sums up David Hawkins in many ways.

因此，他和山姆·哈里斯，以及戴维·霍金斯，都极其深入地思考过‘说出真相’的真正含义。

And so he and Sam Harris, in addition to David Hawkins, have thought very, very carefully about what it means to tell the truth.

他让我读过的一本书（虽然没有完全读完，但有所涉猎）是亚历山大·索尔仁尼琴的《古拉格群岛》，书中索尔仁尼琴——这位曾被囚禁在苏联古拉格多年的思想异见者——并没有着重描述体制的残酷，而是讲述了他自己如何有罪、如何共谋。

And one of the books that he got me to read, not fully, but to dip into, is Alexander Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago, in which Solzhenitsyn, somebody who was a dissident who'd been imprisoned in the Soviet Gulag for many years, wrote not about the cruelty of the system, but wrote about how he was guilty, he was complicit.

你问，你到底是怎么共谋的？

You ask how the hell are you complicit?

你被监禁了，你是个持不同政见者。

You're imprisoned, you're a dissident.

他谈到了俄罗斯公民为了使这个系统成功并持续下去，不得不接受的所有那些微小的谎言和不实之词。

And he talks about all the ways, all the small lies, all the small untruths that a Russian citizen had to accept for the system to succeed and to perpetuate itself.

这实际上是在要求俄罗斯公民不要起来反抗，而是去留意那些允许这些不实之词存在的行为，是如何造就了一个本质上邪恶且与公民真正希望生存和繁荣的愿望背道而驰的系统。

It's kind of asking Russian citizens not to rise up and revolt, but to kind of pay attention to the ways in which allowing those untruths created a system that was basically evil and not reflective of what the citizens actually wanted to survive and thrive.

所以我认为，这在个人生活中也同样成立。

So I think that's probably the same is true of individual lives.

我们从微小的谎言开始，从对那些并不完全契合现实的事物的默许开始。

We start with small untruths and we start with small acceptances of something that doesn't really quite fit.

不知不觉中，我们就过上了虚假的生活。

The next thing we know, we're living a fake life.

正如我们从大卫·霍金斯那里了解到的，虚假的生活并不是一种有力量的生活。

And as we know from David Hawkins, a fake life is not a very powerful life.

在任何时刻，只要你能察觉到自己在说谎并及时停止，或更真实地面对你对世界的体验，这都是一个创造更丰富、更有意义的真实人生、充满冒险的人生的机会。

Any moment you can catch yourself in either telling an untruth and stopping it or becoming more truthful about your experience of the world as an opportunity to create a more rich, meaning real life, a life that's full of adventure.

这无疑是他的一个观点。

That's certainly one of his ideas.

他还以一种非常奇特的方式表达过。

He also, he put it in such a strange way.

比如，我读过它？

Like, I read it?

因为这段话你曾在一次采访中引用过，它让我回去查阅了原始出处，看看他到底说了什么。

Because this, you had quoted it in an interview and it made me go back to the source and see what he said.

这是乔丹·彼得森说过的一句话。

So this is the line from Jordan Peterson.

他说：‘在我作为临床心理学家的整个职业生涯中，这确实让我感到恐惧——我从未见过任何人哪怕一次真正逃脱了后果。’

He said, I've never in all my years as a clinical psychologist, and this is something that really does terrify me, seen anyone ever get away with anything at all, even once.

然后他说：‘有人扭曲了现实的结构，而且他们成功了，因为现实那一刻没有反弹回来。’

And then he says, someone twists the fabric of reality and they do it successfully because it doesn't snap back at them that moment.

两年后，一切崩塌，他们遭到重击，心想：天哪，这太不公平了。

And then two years later, something unravels and they get walloped and they think, Oh my God, that's so unfair.

然后我们追溯原因。

And then we track it.

问题是：在此之前发生了什么？

It's like, What happened before that?

问题就出在这里，因为你不可能扭曲现实而不付出代价。

That's where it went wrong because you can't twist the fabric of reality without having it snap back.

事情不是这样的。

It doesn't work that way.

为什么会是这样呢？

And why would it?

因为你打算怎么做？

Because what are you gonna do?

扭曲现实？

Twist the fabric of reality?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我读到这个时，心想：哇，这个说法相当惊人且引人入胜，对吧？

And I read that and I was like, Woah, that's kind of a startling and fascinating claim, right?

如果你撒谎，就相当于扭曲了现实的三分之一，最终它会回来咬你一口。

That if you lie, you're somehow twisting the fabric one:thirty of reality and it's going to come back and bite you in the butt.

这非常有力，我认为这是真的。

It's extremely powerful and I think it's true.

我认为这绝对是真的。

I think it's absolutely true.

我认为这非常深刻。

I think it's profound.

我想那时我们讨论过希伯来语中‘真理’这个词的字母都有稳固的基座，而‘谎言’的字母则没有——这其实是个有趣的卡巴拉观点。

I think around that time we discussed how the letters in Hebrew for truth all have a solid base and all the Hebrew letters for lie, or it's just an interesting sort of cabalistic idea.

当你编织谎言，即使是小谎言，现实最终也会压垮这些谎言，迟早将它们摧毁。

When you weave lies, even small lies, you create you know, reality will bear down on those lies and destroy them sooner or later.

所以你希望构建一种不会发生这种情况的生活，你知道吗？

So you want to build a life in which that doesn't happen, you know?

但对我来说，乔丹·彼得森的做法是，他决定把每一堂课都录下来并上传到网上。

But I think that Jordan Peterson for me is look, he took a decision that he would take every single one of his lectures and just record them and put them online.

乔丹·彼得森的讲座总共有五百个小时，都是他即兴发挥、未经剪辑的。

There's five hundred hours of Jordan Peterson's lectures, him extemporising, then unedited.

他并没有试图以任何方式塑造自己的形象。

He's not trying to present himself in any way, shape or form.

他在授课时的所有想法都完整地呈现在世人面前。

All his thoughts as he delivers those lectures are there for the world to see.

我认为，当你看到沃伦在莫纳什和我共进三小时午餐，之后告诉我们‘那里没有任何私密内容，你们可以和全世界分享一切’时，就能感受到同样的精神。

I think that's part of you see the same spirit when Warren has a three hour lunch with me in Monash and he basically tells us afterwards, There's nothing that was private there, you can share everything with the world.

因此，某种程度上，他相当于把那场讲座上传到了网上。

And so he's kind of like in a certain way putting that lecture online metaphorically.

这激励着我，去说出关于我的一切，哪怕那是让我感到不安、尴尬或不愿公之于众的真相——我最好还是让它公之于众，顺其自然，因为这才能让我与现实保持一致。

It's the part of me that's inspired to just say whatever it is that's about me, even if it's an uncomfortable truth that I'm kind of embarrassed or don't really want to get out into the public, I'm better off letting it appear in the public and let the cards fall where they may, because that is aligning myself with reality.

如果我与现实保持一致，无论它多么令人不适，我的未来都会更加美好。

And if I align myself with reality, however uncomfortable it is, I have a better future ahead of me.

这种思维方式渗透到方方面面。

That thinking weaves its way into all sorts of places.

我认为，与此分开来看，乔丹·彼得森有一些很棒的观点，比如他关于秩序与混沌的概念，以及我们如何应对生活中的挫折和未来方向。

I think that quite separately from that, I think that Jordan Peterson has a wonderful I mean, it's his concepts around order and chaos and how we deal with mishaps in life and how do we deal with where we're going.

我找到了他的一篇精彩文章，他在其中将《创世纪》的开篇章节视为人类创造力的蓝图。

There's a wonderful article that I found of his in which he talks about the opening chapters of Genesis as being a blueprint for human creativity.

因此，我认为他对宗教有着细致而深刻的看法，这对我来说非常迷人。

And so I think he has a nuanced and very interesting view of religion that is really fascinating for me.

宗教是一种指导我们如何生活的实用指南。

Religion is a practical guide to how to live our lives.

他有一个令我着迷的洞见，我非常喜欢拿出来思考。

He has this fascinating insight that for me, I mean, I just enjoy taking out and thinking about it.

他说，科学世界可以越来越准确地描述‘是什么’，无论从宇宙的起源到韦伯望远镜，再到量子力学和生物学，这些都完全无法为人类应当如何行动提供任何指导。

He says, look, the scientific world can describe with increasing accuracy what is, and whether it goes all the way from the beginnings of the universe to the Webb telescope to quantum mechanics to biology, all those things, it have any guide at all as to what humans should do about it.

难道世界上那些古老的文本，实际上才是指引我们人类该做什么的最有力指南吗？

And is it possible that the world's ancient texts are actually the most powerful guide to what we as humans should do?

因为在科学的世界里，从来没有人提出过这样一个问题：作为一个人，我该做什么？

Because nowhere in the world of science is there is the question asked, what should I as a human do?

无论拥有多少知识，我究竟该怎么做？

Armed with all this knowledge or not, what should I do?

这种观点认为，宗教的领域在于为人类的决策提供蓝图，并将这些智慧代代相传。

And this idea that the realm of religion is about giving a blueprint for human decision making and handing things down over multiple generations.

他曾在某个地方提出过这样一个问题：什么是更强大的现实？

And he kind of says what he's asked the question somewhere, what is a more powerful reality?

是我们仅有两百年历史的科学知识，还是这些通过《圣经》等伟大文学作品，以及荷马的《奥德赛》、《尼伯龙根之歌》等，以世界各地不同民族的神话形式传承下来的蓝图？

Our scientific knowledge that's been around for two hundred years or these blueprints through the great literature of biblical but also other kind of like Homer's Odyssey and other Nibelung lead, and it comes in forms of the mythologies of the various different peoples of the world.

他说，这些是历经数千年的、指引人类行为的准则。

He says those are guides to human action that have lasted millennia.

那么，究竟哪一个才更真实？

So which is actually more real?

我并不打算采取某种神秘主义的方式来对待世界而抛弃科学或任何东西，但他愿意采取这些不受欢迎的立场，这些立场被科学界和理性主义社群所轻视。

Now I'm not about to take some mystical approach to the world and discard science or anything, but he's willing to take those positions, are unpopular, which are looked down upon by the world scientific and rational community.

他是一个非常清晰地依据内在标准行事的人，拥有一个非常强大的内在标准。

He's a guy who operates very clearly by an inner scorecard, a very powerful inner scorecard.

事实上，我认为他会说，他作为作家和公共思想家所取得的巨大成功，正是因为他一直保持真诚。

And actually, I think that he would say that the enormous success that he's achieved as an author and as a public thinker is because he's been truthful.

因此，他与圣雄甘地属于同一类人。

So it's right in there with Mahatma Gandhi.

对于对这本书感兴趣的听众，他的自传副标题是《我与真理的实验》。

For the listeners interested in this book, his autobiography is subtitled A Story of My Experimentations with the Truth.

他是大卫·霍金斯所说的‘真理具有力量’这一观点的活生生的例证。

He's a living example of how David Hawkins, as he says, truth has power.

仅仅凭借内在标准的激励，无论你是否同意他的观点，他都在过自己的生活。

And just the inspiration of being an inner scorecard, whether you agree with him or not, he's living his life.

他为所有人树立了一个榜样，展示了一个如何依据内在标准生活的人。

He's an example there for all to see of somebody who's living his life by an inner scorecard.

对我来说，这种现实的结构概念极其有力，它会反弹回来，你知道吗？

And this fabric of reality idea for me is extraordinarily powerful that it snaps back, you know?

这很有趣，因为在我家，我们会讨论是否应该说善意的谎言。

And it's funny because we go into, in my family, into questions of whether you should tell white lies.

萨姆·哈里斯写了一本关于撒谎的短书。

And Sam Harris has a very short book on lying.

如果我没记错的话，萨姆得出的结论是，即便是善意的谎言，最终也不值得说。

Sam comes to the conclusion, if I remember correctly, that even white lies, it's not worth telling them at the end of the day.

应该找到一种方式，坦诚表达你的感受，而不必说善意的谎言。

Should find a way to speak what you feel without having to tell the white lie.

我认为他可能是对的。

And I think he's probably right.

我认为我们正在触及某个深刻的问题，威廉，非常深刻。

And I think that we're getting at something profound, William, really profound.

这是一切成功的核心，也是所有智慧及其众多路径的核心。

It's at the core of all success, and it's at the core of all wisdom and many paths to it.

只是为了简要提及一下你的书，那么通往这一境界的路径有哪些呢？

And just to do a short call out for your book is that what are the paths to that?

当然，世界上各种宗教就是一条路径。

Well, certainly the world's various religions are a path to it.

但我认为，你所发现的是，许多世界级的投资者也在摸索通往这一境界的路径，而且他们似乎比其他人更擅长这一点。

But I think that what you've figured out is that many of these world's great investors are also figuring out a path to it, and they seem to be better at it than many other people.

因此，他们值得研究。

And so they're worth studying.

你提到的阿诺德·芬恩伯格，显然还有沃伦和查理，但同样非常明确的是尼克·斯利普，他们实际上都在探究表象之下的真实本质，因为一切皆由此而生。

Your example of Arnold Fundenberg, obviously Warren and Charlie, but also very clearly Nick Sleep are actually getting at this idea of what's underneath and what's truthful, because from that flows everything.

价值投资归根结底只是智慧的一个分支。

Value investing is just a branch of wisdom at the end of the day.

它是真理的分支，是智慧的分支。

It's a branch of truth, it's a branch of wisdom.

这一切都是一体的，彼此关联。

It's all one, it's all related.

所以，在撰写那本书的过程中，让我感到最美丽、最深刻的一点是，我意识到如果你在某个领域的行为方式，必然会反映在其他领域，正如查理·芒格常说的是：如果你在某个方面不诚实，它迟早会在其他方面暴露出来。

So I think this was one of the things that became most beautiful and profound to me as I worked on that book was the realization that if the way you behave in one area is going to show up in another area, as Charlie Munger would often say, If you're dishonest in one area, it's going to show up in another area.

如果你的行为方式制造了混乱，它可能不会体现在你的财务生活中，但一定会体现在你的家庭生活中。

If you're acting in a way that creates chaos, it may not show up in your financial life, but it'll show up in your family life.

那么，查理常引用的那句话是什么？

And so it's all, what's that line that Charlie often quotes?

这一切都是彼此相连的，一环扣一环。

It's all one damn relatedness after another.

你无法将这些事情割裂开来。

You can't separate these things out.

我想，你和我一直在努力追求的，也就是你们书中和我的书中（作为你们书的延续）所探讨的核心，其实就是世俗智慧。

I guess what you and I have been trying to work towards that we work towards in your book and then in my book, which is a continuation of your book, is really it's all about worldly wisdom.

试图找出一些在生活、事业和投资中普遍有效的基本原则。

Trying to figure out a few principles on average work pretty well in life and business and investing.

我认为这确实是一个宝贵且重要的补充。

I think that it is valuable, a significant addition.

我的人生就是这一点的例证。

My life is an example of that.

你的书也是这一点的例证。

Your book is an example of that.

你对投资的兴趣，或者说听众对投资、致富和赚钱的兴趣，也是一种通向智慧的途径。

Your interest in investing, your I mean, the listener's interest in investing and getting rich and making money is also a path to wisdom.

你可以将这一追求提升为一种精神追求，并借助阿诺德·范登伯格、威廉·格林以及书中其他人物这样的导师的帮助。

And you can elevate that pursuit to be a spiritual pursuit, and with the help of guides like Arnold Van den Berg and William Green and other characters in the book.

这使得我的人生变得远为更有意义。

And that's kind of like that makes our life, my life far more meaningful.

谢谢你，盖伊。

Thank you, Guy.

多年来，你在许多方面都是我的良师。

You've been a great teacher to me on many fronts over many years.

但我最近问一位朋友，我问他：‘你的拉比是个好老师吗？’

But I said to a friend of mine recently, I was asking him about his rabbi, and I said, is he a really good teacher?

他只是说：‘是啊，是啊，是啊。’

He's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

但不仅如此，他还是我的朋友。

But more than that, he's a friend.

我当时就想：这真是很高的评价。

And I was like, That's high praise.

所以谢谢你。

And so thank you.

你在我生命中以多种方式带来了巨大的影响，但最重要的是，你一直是个非常好的朋友。

You've been a great force, so good in my life in so many ways, but above all, you've been a really good friend.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

有一天，不在这个播客里，威廉和我会讲讲今年早些时候我们之间发生的一些有趣的事情。我当时在心里对威廉说，至少对我来说，我怀疑对你也是如此——虽然我不能替你发言——这让我意识到这段友谊有多珍贵，所有珍贵的东西有多脆弱，以及我们曾多么接近失去它。

One of these days, not on this podcast, William and I might tell the story of some interesting things that unfolded between us earlier this year, which I said internally, William, I think at least on my side and I suspect on your side, although I can't speak for you, it made me realize how valuable the friendship was, how fragile all things that are valuable are and how close we were to losing it.

但幸运的是，从另一方面来看，我认为至少对我来说，我更加珍惜它了，而我以前并没有意识到这一点。

But the good thing is on the other side, I think that certainly from my side, value it so much more and I didn't realize it.

我们当时离悲剧只差一英寸。

And we an inch away from tragedy, basically.

这确实是个挑战，但我们避免了灾难。

Well, it was a challenge and we averted catastrophe.

非常感谢你。

So thank you so much.

好了，各位。

All right, folks.

至此，我与盖伊·斯皮尔的对话第二集结束。

That concludes episode two of my conversation with Guy Spear.

如果你还没机会听第一部分，我也希望你能去听听。

If you didn't get a chance to listen to part one already, I hope you'll check that out as well.

同时，如果你想更多地了解盖伊，我在本集的节目说明中提供了各种资源，包括他的播客链接和免费通讯。

Meanwhile, if you'd like to learn more from Guy, I've included various resources in the show notes for this episode, including a link to his podcast and his free newsletter.

我还强烈推荐阅读他的回忆录《一个价值投资者的教育》。

I'd also strongly recommend reading memoir, The Education of a Value Investor.

当然，我有严重的偏见，因为我帮着他写了这本书。

Of course, I'm hopelessly biased because I helped him to write it.

但我确实认为这是一本极好的书，部分原因在于他非常致力于坦诚面对自己的缺点和一路走来的错误。

But I do think it's an excellent book, partly because he's so committed to being truthful about his own flaws and the mistakes he's made along the way.

我最喜爱的与盖伊合作写书的回忆之一，是我们在他苏黎世的厨房里，他突然非常兴奋地说：我不在乎这本书会不会毁掉我的声誉。

One of my favorite memories of working with Guy on the book came when we were in his kitchen in Zurich, and he suddenly got really excited and said, I don't care if this book ruins my reputation.

我只想如实地讲述真实的自己。

I just wanna give an honest account of who I am.

我必须说，他这种追求坦诚的决心让我感到非常钦佩，甚至相当勇敢。

I have to say I found his determination to be so candid, incredibly impressive, and pretty courageous.

同时，非常感谢所有在Twitter上给我写信，建议我向盖伊提问的人。

Meanwhile, thanks a lot to everyone who wrote to me on Twitter to suggest questions for me to ask Guy.

作为感谢，我每期节目都会从使用过的问题中抽出一人，赠送一本我亲笔签名的《富有希望，更明智，更快乐》。

As a way of saying thanks, I try to give away one signed copy of my book, Rich Hope, Wiser, Happier per episode to a person whose question I've used.

今天的获奖者是斯泰西·史密斯。

Today's winner is Stacy Smith.

如果你有这个兴致，请随时在Twitter上关注我，我的账号是William Green seventy two，也欢迎告诉我你对这个播客的体验。

If the spirit moves you, please feel free to follow me on Twitter at William Green seventy two, and do let me know how you're enjoying the podcast.

听到你的声音总是令人愉快。

It's always lovely to hear from you.

我很快就会回来，带来更多关于投资与人生的深度访谈。

I'll be back again very soon with more in-depth interviews about investing and life.

我的下一位嘉宾是丹尼尔·戈尔曼，他的畅销书《情商》已售出超过五百多万册。

My next guest is Daniel Goleman, whose blockbuster book, Emotional Intelligence, has sold more than 5,000,000 copies.

在那之前，非常感谢你的收听。

Until then, many thanks for listening.

保重。

Take care.

感谢收听TIP。

Thank you for listening to TIP.

请通过投资者播客网络订阅《我们研究亿万富翁》。

Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires via The Investor's Podcast Network.

每周三，我们向您讲解比特币；每周六，我们研究亿万富翁和金融市场。

Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin, and every Saturday, we study billionaires and the financial markets.

要获取我们的节目笔记、文字稿或课程，请访问 theinvestorspodcast.com。

To access our show notes, transcripts, or courses, go to the investorspodcast.com.

本节目仅用于娱乐目的。

This show is for entertainment purposes only.

在做出任何决定之前，请咨询专业人士。

Before making any decision, consult a professional.

本节目由The Investor's Podcast Network版权所有。

This show is copyrighted by The Investor's Podcast Network.

未经书面许可，不得进行转播或重播。

Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.