RWH011：情商投资者与丹尼尔·戈尔曼

比特币不仅仅关乎一生。

Bitcoin isn't just for life.

它关乎几代人。

It's for generations.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

这很有趣，因为最伟大的投资者实际上非常清楚自己的情绪状态，甚至生理状态。

It's interesting because the greatest investors are actually very, very clued in to their, I would say, not only their emotional state, but actually their physiological state.

有一个关于乔治·索罗斯的著名故事，他提到自己会注意到背部疼痛，并意识到这是投资组合出现问题的生理信号。

So there's a famous story of George Soros, who talked about how he would start to notice the pain in his back and to realise that it was a physical cue that there was something wrong in his portfolio.

杰夫·维尼克曾管理着全球规模最大的共同基金，当时他才三十出头，我曾经采访过他。

And Jeff Vinik, who managed the biggest mutual fund in the world in his early thirties, I once interviewed him.

他说，当他买入一只持续暴跌、但他预测会反弹的股票时，会感到身体不适甚至恶心。

And he said that when he was buying a stock that had been plunging and he's predicting that it would go up, he said he would feel physically nauseous.

他意识到，这种身体上的恶心感实际上是身体发出的一个积极信号，表明市场中充满了恐惧，很可能是个抄底机会。

And he learned that that sense of physical nausea was actually a positive signal from his body that there was so much fear in the market that it was probably a bargain.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk a little about that?

关于如何高度关注自己的身体状态，具体来说，你会关注哪些迹象来判断自己是否出现了某种问题？

About the sort of specifics of becoming very clued into your own body, like what you would look for to tell whether you're malfunctioning in some way?

或者，你的身体状态是正常的，但只是让你感到不安。

Or functioning right, but just in a way that is kind of unsettling.

有一位著名的神经科学家名叫安东尼奥·达马西奥，他研究了大脑和身体在决策中的作用。

There's a very famous neuroscientist named Antonio Damasio who studied decision making in the brain and the body.

他将你所描述的这种现象称为体细胞标记。

He calls exactly what you're talking about somatic markers.

他说，大脑中记录生活经验的部分——当我这么做时，它奏效了；当我这么说时，它没奏效——位于大脑一个非常原始的区域。

And he says, you know, the part of the brain which captures life experience, when I did that, it worked.

这个区域非常深，位于大脑的原始区域。

When I said that, it didn't work, is very deep in a primitive area of the brain.

它位于大脑中比语言思维区域更低的位置。

It's lower in the brain than the part that thinks in words.

它与语言思维区域没有直接联系。

And it has no direct connection to the part of the brain that thinks in words.

它与身体、与肠道有非常强的联系。

It has very strong connections to the body, to the gut.

因此它会发出信号。

So it sends out signals.

这感觉很好。

This feels good.

这感觉不好。

It doesn't feel good.

他说，如果你要做一个明智的决定，如果能结合直觉，效果会更好。

What he says is that if you're going to make a sound decision, it'll be even better if you can include gut sense.

这不仅仅是电子表格告诉你的内容。

It's not just what the spreadsheet tells you.

这不仅仅是数字所显示的内容。

It's not just what the numbers are saying.

这是一种对背景的更深层次的理解。

It's some deeper understanding of the context.

例如，南加州大学研究了杰出的企业家，发现他们在做商业决策时，都说：我会尽可能收集所有我能找到的信息。

For example, outstanding entrepreneurs were studied at USC and they found that about how they made decisions, business decisions, they all said, well, I gather as much information as I can find.

他们是信息的狂热收集者。

They're voracious gatherers of information.

他们所收集的信息远远超出了其他人认为相关的内容，但他们总是会用直觉来验证这些信息。

They went way beyond what other people might think was relevant, but they always checked it against their gut feeling.

它可能让你感觉：我不太信任这些人。

It may not feel maybe I can't trust these guys.

换句话说，也许你有一些自己都没意识到、却需要留意的知识。

Maybe in other words, maybe you know something that you don't know you know that you need to pay attention to.

这些体感标记正是在向你传达这些信息。

That's what those somatic markers are telling you.

我们知道的比能说出来的要多。

We know more than we can say.

我有一个朋友叫肯·舒伯特·斯坦，我在我的书《更富有、更睿智、更快乐》中详细写过他。他的背景非常独特，因为他曾是一名医生，后来成为对冲基金经理和私募股权投资者，但几年前他退出了投资行业，转行成为神经学家。

There's a friend of mine called Ken Schubert Stein, who I write about at some length in my book, Richer, Wiser, Happier, who's got a very unusual background because he was a doctor and then became a hedge fund manager and private equity investor, and then quit the investment business a few years ago and became a neurologist.

因此，他对大脑内部的运作机制有着深刻的理解，同时也了解投资实战中的实际情况。

And so he has a very unusual deep understanding of what's going on in the brain, but also an understanding of the practical game of investing in the trenches.

让我对他应对市场情绪的实用方法感到着迷的一点是，他借鉴了一个我认为源自成瘾科学研究的概念，他说他知道某些生理状态和情绪状态会成为做出糟糕决策的先决条件。

One of the things that fascinated me about his kind of practical workarounds for dealing with emotions in the market was that he had borrowed an idea, I think from addiction scientific literature, where he said that he knew that there were various physiological states, emotional states that were going to be preconditions for making terrible decisions.

他有一个助记口诀叫HALT PS，意思是当他感到饥饿、愤怒、孤独、疲惫、疼痛或压力时。

He said he had this mnemonic, was HALT PS, which was when he was hungry, angry, lonely, tired, in pain, or stressed.

他说，我会放慢速度。

He said, I just went really slow.

我会观察当时发生了什么，他是一名冥想者。

I'd look to see what was go and he's a meditator.

他会留意自己身体和内心正在发生什么。

And he he would look to see what was going on in his body and his mind.

他在新冠疫情爆发初期采取了这一做法，当时他刚刚生下孩子才四天。

And he took this actually during the start of the outbreak of COVID, where he had just had a baby literally four days before.

他必须住在医院附近的一家酒店里，以免传染给妻子和刚出生的孩子。

And he has to go basically to stay in a hotel near this hospital so that he doesn't expose his wife and his newborn kid.

他当时在病房治疗新冠患者，同时因大学时的摔跤生涯而患有严重的背痛。

And he was treating COVID patients in a ward and he had a bad back from his wrestling career at college.

他说，防护装备极其痛苦，你会极度疲惫，看着所有躺在呼吸机旁、即将死去的病人，还得打电话通知他们的家人，而你自己已经精疲力尽。

And he said the PPE equipment was incredibly painful and you would be unbelievably tired and you'd be looking at all of these patients on ventilators who were dying and you'd be having to call their family and you're exhausted.

因此，他观察自己的状态，知道在这种条件下会让他做出错误的决定，于是他放慢了节奏，并努力付出更多的同情心。

And so he said, looking at his state, knowing that being in these conditions would lead him to make bad decisions, he just went really slowly and he made an extra effort to be compassionate.

因为他表示，我知道当自己疼痛、情绪低落、想念孩子时，再加上对政府政策和防护设备短缺感到愤怒，

Because he said, I know that when I'm in pain and I'm upset and I'm missing my kid, and he was furious about the government's policies and the lack of PPE equipment.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk a bit about that?

因为这种用简单口诀如‘HALT PS’在生活不同领域应用的方式，看起来非常有趣。

Because it seems so interesting the way that you can apply this knowledge even with a simple mnemonic, like called PS in different areas of your life.

所以，如果我换种说法，他想表达的是，当你情绪激动时——他列举了六七种让人极度激动的情况——不要仓促行事。

So what he's saying, if I could put it differently, is that when you're upset, and he listed six or seven different ways to be really upset, don't do anything hastily.

在冲动和行动之间留出更多空间。

Widen the gap between impulse and action.

这正是他想说的。

That's exactly what he's saying.

行动之前先想一想。

Think about it before you act.

事实上，实施情商教育的学校项目被称为社会情感学习。

In fact, the school programs that implement emotional intelligence, they're called social emotional learning.

其中许多项目会使用一张红绿灯的海报。

Many of them use a poster, which is of a stoplight.

红灯、黄灯、绿灯。

Red light, yellow light, green light.

当你情绪激动时，就想想红绿灯。

When you're upset, think of the stoplight.

红灯，停下，冷静下来，行动前先思考。

Red light, stop, calm down, and think before you act.

黄灯，想想你可能采取的多种做法，以及每种做法的后果。

Yellow light, think of a range of different things you could be and what the consequence would be of each one.

绿灯，选择最好的一种并尝试一下。

Green light, pick the best one and try it out.

这对任何人都是很好的建议，不只是学校里的孩子、投资者，任何人都可以使用这些建议，因为我们都在应对同样的神经系统，同样的容易被强烈情绪淹没的倾向，但我们仍需在这些情绪中正常运作。

That's good advice for anyone, not just kids in school, investors, or anyone can use that advice because we're all dealing with the same set, the same central nervous system, the the same susceptibility to overwhelming emotions, and yet we have to function with those emotions.

所以我认为他阐述得非常清楚。

So he spelled it out very well, I thought.

你提到过一个词，我觉得特别好，我想是‘情绪智力’。

You had a phrase in, I think it was emotional intelligence, that I loved.

我不确定这是你自创的还是别人提出的，你曾写到过‘杏仁核劫持’。

I don't know if it was your own coining or someone else's where you write about an amygdala hijack.

你能谈谈这个概念吗？当我们面对压力、面对这些引发情绪波动的干扰性情绪时，大脑里究竟发生了什么？

Can you talk about that, what it is, what's actually happening in the brain when we're dealing with stress, when we're dealing with these disruptive emotions that stir it up?

然后我们可以讨论一下对抗杏仁核劫持的解药是什么。

And then we can talk about what the antidote to the amygdala hijack might be.

杏仁核劫持指的是大脑中负责威胁探测的雷达——当时神经科学将这一功能集中在杏仁核上——意识到存在某种危险时的情况。

The amygdala hijack refers to the situation where your brain's radar for threat, which at the time neuroscience had centered on the amygdala, realised that there was a danger, whatever it may be.

大脑的设计初衷是为了帮助我们生存。

The brain was designed to help us survive.

它在史前时期帮助我们生存，而那时大脑的形态已经定型。

And it helped us survive in prehistory, which was when the brain took shape.

那时的威胁是真实的生命危险，比如灌木丛中可能吃掉我们或我们需要追捕并吃掉的动物。

And the threat in those days was actual life or death threat, something in the bushes that either could eat us or that we had to chase after and eat.

因此，我们形成了一个非常迅速的即时反应机制，这是大脑这一回路的决策功能。

And so we had a very quick sudden response that is the decision role for this part of the brain circuit.

它能够接管大脑的理性部分——前额叶皮层，而我们正是在这里学习、理解、规划和做出明智决策。

It can take over the rational part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, where we learn, where we comprehend, where we plan, where we make good decisions.

事实上，它完全控制了前额叶皮层。

In fact, it captures it.

这就是劫持。

That's the hijack.

劫持的迹象有三个。

And the signs of a hijack are three.

你会产生一种突然的情绪反应。

You have a very sudden, emotional reaction.

这是负面的，通常是愤怒或恐惧。

It's negative, anger, fear, typically.

当事情平息后，你真的会后悔自己所做的事情。

And when the dust settles, you really regret what you did.

你没有拉开差距。

You didn't widen the gap.

根本没有任何差距。

There's no gap at all.

当你解释这些时，我突然脸红了，心想：哦，没错。

There's a moment where I flush as you explain this, and I'm like, oh, yeah.

至少一天没这么做了。

Haven't haven't done that in at least a day.

所以今天，脑科学已经取得了进展。

So today, now brain science has moved forward.

我们意识到，不仅仅是杏仁核，杏仁核属于所谓的显著性网络的一部分，这意味着当前对我而言什么是重要的。

We realize it's not just the amygdala that the amygdala is part of what's called the salience network, which means what's relevant to me right now.

显著性网络是大脑的一部分，它通过不断忽略我们持续接收的大量感官信息，只挑选出它认为与当前任务相关的内容，从而即时地为我们简化生活。

The salience network is the part of the brain which instant by instant by instant simplify life for us by putting aside the huge amount of sensory information that we get constantly and picking out just the part that it thinks is relevant to what are the task at hand.

所以，对于投资者来说，这意味着哪些因素或哪些数据？

So, you know, for an investor, it means what are the forces or what are the data?

对于这项投资，哪些信息是相关的？

What's the relevant information for this investment?

显著性网络在我们生活的每一种情境中都在持续为我们做这件事。

You know, the salience network is doing this for us all the time in every life situation.

杏仁核是这个网络的一部分。

And the amygdala is part of that network.

如果它认为存在威胁，而今天的威胁可能是我感到被不尊重、被责怪，或者别人抢了我的功劳。

And if it thinks there's a threat, and the threat today might be, I'm feeling disrespected, I'm getting blamed, someone else is taking credit.

换句话说，这些是象征性的现实，而不是生物性的现实。

In other words, they're symbolic realities, not biological realities.

结果发现，杏仁核和显著性网络实际上会犯很多错误。

So it turns out the amygdala and that salience network actually makes a lot of mistakes.

我们会因为一些事情被劫持，而如果冷静思考，或许我们并不会如此不安。

We get hijacked for things that if we thought about it, maybe we wouldn't be so upset about.

它宁可安全第一，也不愿事后后悔。

It would rather be safe than sorry, essentially.

因此，我们经常会被劫持。

So we end up getting hijacked all too often.

我认为，被劫持的状态是进行投资时最糟糕的状态。

And I would say that the hijacked state is the worst state to invest from.

我想不出还有什么比这更糟的了。

I can't think of anything worse.

在我过去二十五年左右与顶尖投资者相处的过程中，有一件事让我非常印象深刻：最优秀的投资者似乎并没有像我们大多数人那样的情绪反应。

One of the things that's very striking to me in the time I've spent with great investors over the last twenty five years or so is that the greatest of them don't seem to have the same emotional response that most of us do.

某种奇怪的方式上，他们的大脑构造其实有所不同。

Some strange way, they're actually wired differently.

所以我记得，比如，大约在9·11事件后十二三天，当时市场刚刚经历了自1929年大萧条以来最糟糕的一周。

So I remember for example, something like, I think this must have been about twelve or thirteen days after nineeleven when the markets had just had their worst week since 1929, since the great depression.

我当时正和一位传奇投资者比尔·米勒在一起，他当时正处在连续十年或十一年跑赢市场的纪录中，这简直是不可能的。

And I was with this legendary investor, a guy called Bill Miller, who was in the middle of this streak where he'd beaten the market, I think by then by ten or eleven years, which is kind of impossible.

最终这个纪录持续了大约十五年。

It ended up being about fifteen years.

当他在电话中联系办公室时，我就在他身边。

And I was with him when he calls his office.

我们乘坐了他的私人飞机。

We went on his private plane.

他有一架里尔喷气机，基本上是因为他养了一只爱尔兰猎狼犬，他喜欢带着它旅行，那狗体型巨大。

He had this Learjet that he got basically because he had an Irish wolfhound that he liked to travel with that was enormous.

所以我们去了他的母校，因为他要在那里发表演讲，并且他给学生们做了一场报告。

So we go to his alma mater because he's giving a speech and he gives this talk to the students.

然后他打电话回办公室，他们告诉他：你买下的那家公司，是一家名为AES的能源股。

And then he calls into the office and they say to him, This company you bought, it was an energy stock called AES.

你昨天买入的这家公司——我认为他投入了五千万美元——刚刚公布了财报。

This company you bought yesterday that I think he'd put $50,000,000 in, has just come out with its earnings.

情况非常糟糕，股价已经腰斩。

It's disastrous and the stock has halved.

我想我记起来了，据我回忆，当时还没到中午，这笔投资就已经亏损了五千万美元。

And so I think I figured out, I think if I remember correctly, it had lost $50,000,000 and it wasn't even lunchtime.

比尔，我最近翻看我的笔记，还记得我对他的反应有非常生动的描述，他变得非常严肃。

Bill, I looked at my notes recently and I had this very vivid description of how he reacted and he gets very, very serious.

他非常专注。

He's very focused.

他拿着电话说：让我们看看我的现金在哪里。

And he's on the phone and he says, Let's see where my cash is.

让我们看看我的现金状况如何。

Let's see what my cash position is.

他只是说：‘好吧，现在把仓位翻倍。’

And he just says, All right, let's double the position now.

他后来向我解释说，基本上因为他从行为金融学中知道，投资者对损失的痛苦感受远比对收益的喜悦更强烈，因此他的默认立场是假设人们会过度反应于坏消息。

And he explained this later to me that basically because he knew from behavioural finance that investors feel the pain of loss so much more intensely than the pleasure of gain, that his default position is to assume that people overreact to bad news.

因此，在事情出错时，他能够保持非常冷静，这某种程度上构成了他的竞争优势。

And so there was some way in which part of his competitive advantage was the fact that when things went wrong, he was very dispassionate.

他曾经在军事情报部门工作，对吧？

He was a guy who'd been in military intelligence, right?

他是一个极其冷静的人。

He was a super unemotional guy.

他是个很棒的人，真的很友善。

Lovely man, really nice man.

但我一再看到，我认为像查理·芒格这样的人——巴菲特的搭档——他们的思维模式确实有些不同。

But I've seen that again and again, that there's actually some difference, I think, the wiring of people like Charlie Munger, Buffett's partner.

我的朋友杰森·茨威格谈到，巴菲特的情绪反应是相反的。

My friend Jason Zweig talks about how Buffett is inversely emotional.

所以当市场开始出问题、所有人都恐慌时，巴菲特反而会感到开心。

So when the market starts to go wrong and everyone's panicking, Buffett actually is kind of joyful.

我认为巴菲特在过去几个月里投资了大约500亿美元，而其他人却陷入恐慌。

So I think Buffett has invested something like $50,000,000,000 in the last couple of months while everyone else is in a panic.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk a bit about that?

我知道你不像我这样痴迷于投资，但是否有些人天生就不同，以不同的方式应对压力？

I know that you're not obsessed with investing in the way that I am, but are there people who are just sort of wired differently so that they're dealing with intensity in a different way?

威廉，你可以这样想。

You can think about it this way, William.

这涉及几个方面。

It's a couple of things.

首先，大脑的设计本就更强烈地感知负面信息而非正面信息，因为这有助于生存。

First of all, the brain is designed to register more strongly negativity than positivity because that helped to survive.

你要记住那些危险的事情。

You want to remember the thing that's dangerous.

你想记住那些威胁。

You wanna remember the thing that's a threat.

你想记住那些永远不要再做的事。

You wanna remember the thing you should never do again.

因此，大脑的设计是让这些记忆比愉快的经历更加深刻。

And so the brain is designed to imprint that memory more strongly than the pleasant things that happen.

这就是为什么所有人，不仅仅是投资者，都会对坏消息反应过度。

So that's why people, all people, not just investors, overreact to bad news.

这就是为什么报纸上充斥着坏消息，因为它们引人注目。

That's why newspapers are full of bad news because it's captivating.

这是我们想阅读的内容。

It's what we wanna read about.

这是大脑想要了解的，因为它想从中吸取教训。

It's what the brain wants to know because it wants to learn the lesson.

哦，那只是发生在别人身上。

Oh, that happened to someone else.

我不希望这种事情发生在我身上。

I don't want it to happen to me.

人们在应对威胁或坏消息时存在三种个体差异。

There are three ways that people differ, individual differences in reacting to threat or bad news.

第一是他们被触发的频率。

One is how often they're triggered.

有些人经常被触发，有些人则很少。

Some people are triggered a lot, some people a little.

第二是被触发的深度，即他们感受到负面情绪的强烈程度。

The second is how deeply they're triggered, how intensely they feel the negative emotion.

有些人感受得非常深刻。

Some people feel it really deeply.

有些人则感受得很轻微。

Some people feel it very lightly.

第三是他们恢复得有多快。

And the third is how quickly they recover.

我谈到了韧性。

I talked about resilience.

那么，你更有韧性吗？

So are you more resilient?

你能迅速恢复吗？

Do you snap back?

你所说的非常有趣，或许那些更成功的投资者在上述三个方面有着不同的特质。

And what you're saying, very interesting, is that perhaps the more successful investors are wired differently in those three ways at least.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这很微妙，因为最近我在播客上与比尔·米勒谈到这个话题时，他说：事实上，我情绪还挺丰富的。

And it's nuanced because when I talked to Bill Miller about this recently on this podcast, he said, look, I'm actually pretty emotional.

就像他说的，当我听音乐时，我可能会哭。

Like like he said, when I listen to music, I can cry.

但当涉及到金融决策时，却展现出一种极致的理性。

And yet when it comes to financial decisions, there's this supreme rationality.

我的意思是，我记得在9·11事件之后，他对我说：看，今天的世界比9·11前一天更安全。

I mean, I remember after nine eleven, he said to me, look, the world is safer today than it was the day before 09:11.

威胁已经浮现。

The threat has surfaced.

我们之前并未意识到这个威胁。

We weren't aware of the threat.

现在我们意识到了这个威胁，就能应对它。

Now we're aware of the threat and we can deal with it.

所以他指出，人们感觉现在的威胁加剧了，但实际上，现在的威胁比以前更低。

So he said there's a perception that the threat now is elevated, but in fact, the threat is lower now than it was before.

所以他就像一台概率机器，一生都在根据证据进行判断，而不是被情绪所驱动。

So it's kind of like this he's like this probabilistic machine going through life looking at the evidence rather than being driven by his emotion.

问题是这样。

So here's the thing.

在心理学中，我们称之为再评估，认知再评估。

In psychology, we call that reappraisal, cognitive reappraisal.

这是对情境的重新思考。

It's rethinking the situation.

事实证明，应对压力或 stressful 现实的最佳方法之一就是仔细思考，并像他那样重新定义正在发生的事情。

And it turns out one of the best ways to handle stress or a stressful reality is to think it through and to reframe what's going on exactly as he did.

把负面情绪拿出来，用一种能帮助你更好应对的方式去思考它。

To take the upset and to think about it in a way that's gonna help you handle it better.

这就是重新定义。

That's the reframe.

这就是认知再评估。

That's the cognitive reappraisal.

顺便说一句，这是一种可以习得的才能。

And that, by the way, can be a learned talent.

所有这些心理技能都是后天习得且可习得的。

All of these mental skills are learned and learnable.

情绪智力与智商不同，是可以学习和提升的。

Emotional intelligence, unlike IQ, is learned and learnable.

因此，你可以提高这些能力中的任何一种。

So you can get better at any of these abilities.

我们甚至还没谈到同理心和人际关系，这对投资者来说可能重要，也可能不那么重要。

We haven't even gotten to empathy and relationships, which may or may not matter that much for investors.

不。

No.

它们很重要。

They do.

我们稍后会讨论这些。

And we'll talk about those later.

但是

But

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为我只想强调，这两者都是可以学习和提升的。

But I think I just wanna emphasize that those two are learned and learnable.

事实上，我目前正在写一本书，探讨学习这些能力如何惠及整个组织的文化。

And in fact, I'm now writing a book about why learning this will benefit an entire culture of an organization.

通过让领导者说：是的，这很重要，为员工提供发展机会，并将其纳入绩效考核。

By having leaders who say, yes, this matters, offering chances for development to people, putting it in a performance review.

这不仅仅是你的数字表现。

It's not just your numbers.

你是怎么达成这些数字的？

How did you get those numbers?

因为如果你是以最糟糕的方式达成的，我们就会失去人才。

Because if you got them in the worst ways, we're gonna lose talent.

为你工作的人会讨厌你。

People will hate you who work for you.

人们会走捷径。

People cut corners.

如果人们被施加太大压力，只为了完成季度业绩数字，就会丧失道德感。

People lose their ethical sense if they're being pressured too much just to get the numbers for the quarter.

因此，错误的领导方式会掏空人力资本。

So leading in the wrong way can hollow out human capital.

人们不愿意为他们讨厌的上司工作。

People don't wanna work for bosses they hate.

你合著了一本非常有趣的书，《原始领导力》，我还没完全读过。

You co authored a very interesting book, Primal Leadership, that I haven't read fully.

过去一周，我只是粗略翻阅了这本书，以及你的其他几本书。

I've just been grazing it along with several other of your books over the last week.

你能谈谈这本书的重要性吗？我的意思是，你是在情绪智力一章的基础上展开的，对吧？

Could you talk about that the importance of I mean, you build on a chapter in emotional intelligence, right?

关于用心管理，用心领导。

About managing with heart, leading with heart.

威廉，实际上，自那以来，这一领域已经有了很大进展。

Well, William, actually, it's advanced quite a lot since then.

我曾连续二十五年担任情感智能与组织研究联盟的联合主任。

I was for twenty five years co director of a consortium for research on emotional intelligence and organizations.

现在，另一位联合主任凯莉·切恩斯和我——罗格斯大学的教授——正在整理过去二十多年在商业领域积累的研究成果，这些研究表明，拥有更多情感智能领导者和情感智能团队的组织（因为团队层面也可以具备这种能力），其员工参与度、生产力和绩效更高，人员流失率更低，无论以何种指标衡量都是如此。

And now the other director, Carrie Chernes and I, professor at Rutgers, are harvesting more than two decades of research in the business realm, which shows that organizations that have more emotionally intelligent leaders and have more emotionally intelligent teams, because you can have this at the team level, have higher levels of engagement, productivity, higher performance, less turnover, whatever the metric is.

这非常、非常积极。

It's very, very positive.

而我们真正想做的是将这些成果推广到企业中。

And what we want to do actually is bring this to companies.

我成立了一个名为高盛咨询集团的团队，帮助公司打造更具情感智能的文化。

I have a group called the Goldman Consulting Group, which is helping companies do this, create a more emotionally intelligent culture.

其中一种方式是让团队一起学习如何共同提升情感智能。

One of the ways is by having groups learn how to become more emotionally intelligent together.

为高层提供辅导固然很好，但还有其他所有人——所有管理者等等，他们却得不到这样的支持。

It's great to coach at the top of the house, but there's everybody else, All the managers and so on, they don't get that.

因此，我们发现了一种其他方法，可以更深入地将这种能力融入整个组织。

So we found that there's another methodology you can use to get this more deeply into an organization.

现在，我的兴趣正朝着情绪智力这个方向发展。

That's where my interests are going now with emotional intelligence.

所以，让我们回到当我们将被这些负面情绪、干扰性情绪淹没的时候，我对一些实用的方法和资源很感兴趣。

So to go back a bit to when we're getting flooded with these difficult emotions, these disruptive emotions, I'm interested in various practical techniques and resources that we can bring to bear.

你提到了重新框架这些情绪。

You you mentioned reframing them.

有人在推特上给你发了一个问题，用户名叫Conservative Capital auditorinvestor，他说：我非常喜欢戈德曼的工作和他的举止。

Someone sent me a question on Twitter for you, who goes by the name Conservative Capital auditorinvestor, who said, I love Goldman's work and his demeanor.

他特别喜欢你的一次演讲，你在其中分享了正念呼吸的好处。

And he said, I particularly like this talk of his where he shared the benefits of mindful breathing.

他问是否有日常练习的资源，无论是呼吸技巧、哈他瑜伽，还是其他任何你认为特别有帮助的方法。

And he was asking if there are resources for daily practice, whether it's breathing techniques, Hatha Yoga, whatever, that you found particularly helpful.

我们很快也会更详细地探讨冥想。

And we can get to meditation in more detail as well soon.

但首先，我以前就听过你谈论呼吸练习。

But first, I've heard you talking about breathing exercises before.

你能谈谈一些非常实用、简单的技巧吗？在我们被情绪淹没的时刻，这些技巧能帮助我们。

Can you talk about very practical simple techniques like that that can help us in these moments where we're getting kind of flooded?

不过，让我先讲一个真实的故事，那是安迪·格鲁夫的商业自传，他曾是英特尔的首席执行官，那时英特尔是科技行业的领军企业。

Let me start though by talking about a time actually, it was the business autobiography of Andy Grove, who used to be CEO of Intel when that was like the company in tech.

在那个每个人都有笔记本电脑的时代，英特尔的芯片内置在每一台笔记本里。

Intel inside every laptop in the day when everybody had a laptop.

格鲁夫说，我们曾经好几次濒临死亡。

And Grove said we could have died a few times.

一次是我们被竞争对手突然袭击。

One was when we were blindsided by competitors.

另一次是我们发布了一款有缺陷的芯片。

Another was when we shipped a chip that had a flaw.

他说，我们之所以能幸存下来，取决于高层团队的情绪反应。

And he said, if we had how we survived depended on the emotional reactions of the top team.

如果我们否认现实，被恐惧麻痹，或陷入恐慌，今天就不会有这家公司了。

If we had denied what was going on, if we're paralyzed with fear, if we had panicked, we would not be here today as a company.

我认为这有力地支持了你所提出的问题，即人们如何学会应对商业中每日的起伏、压力、挑战、冲击和意外。

I think that's a very strong argument for what you're asking, which is how can people learn to handle the ups and downs and the stresses and the challenges and the shocks and the surprises of business every day.

我的另一位哈佛时期的朋友约翰·卡巴特-津恩称之为生活的‘全 catastrophe’。

John Kabat Zinn, another friend of mine from Harvard Day, says calls it the full catastrophe of life.

是的。

Yeah.

他不是写过一本叫《全 catastrophe 生活》的书吗？我觉得是的。

Didn't he write a book, Full Catastrophe Living, which I think is Yeah.

这本书非常

It's very

精彩。

good book.

但无论如何

But anyway

真是个绝妙的书名。

Wonderful title.

从相同的方法开始。

Starts with the same method.

如果你不介意的话，让我与你的听众分享一下。

And let me just share it with your listeners, if you don't mind.

这是一种通用的注意力训练，有助于在任何情况下保持平静和专注。

This is kind of a generic attention training, which helps with becoming calm and focused even despite what's going on.

它们非常简单。

They're very simple.

如果你感到舒适，可以闭上眼睛，将注意力集中在呼吸上，关注吸气和呼气，完整的吸气，完整的呼气，呼吸时的感觉，可能是在鼻孔处，或腹部的起伏。

You just if you're comfortable, you can close your eyes and bring your attention to your breath, to the in breath and the out breath, the full in breath, the full out breath, the sensation of breathing, maybe at your nostrils or rise and fall of your belly.

然后从下一次呼吸开始。

And then start with the next breath.

再做一次，完整的吸气，完整的呼气。

Do it again, full in breath, the full out breath.

始终将注意力保持在呼吸上。

Just keep your focus there on your breath.

当你的思绪飘走并注意到时，就把注意力带回到下一次呼吸上。

And when your mind wanders and you notice it wandered, bring it back to the next breath.

就这么简单。

That's all there is to it.

你只需专注于呼吸，当思绪飘走时将它带回来，然后睁开眼睛。

You just stay with the breath, bringing back your mind when it floats away and open your eyes.

这就是简单的核心指导。

That's the simple core instruction.

但如果你每天早上练习五到十分钟，它就能为你的全天重新调整大脑状态。

But if you do it five minutes, ten minutes in the morning, it resets your brain for the day.

你练习的时间越长，益处就越大。

The longer you do it, the better the benefits.

这些益处如今已被充分证实。

The benefits are very well established now.

它让人更平静，更能应对压力。

It makes people calmer, makes them better able to handle stress.

它让人更专注，更能忽略干扰，实际上也让人成为更好的学习者。

It makes them more focused, better able to ignore distractions, makes them actually better learners.

你可以所谓的多任务处理，而不会失去对今天真正重要事情的注意力。

You can multitask, so called multitask, without getting losing concentration on what really matters today.

所以它有许多好处，但就像培养任何技能一样，威廉。

So it has numerous benefits, but it's like developing any skill, William.

你练习得越多，收益就越好。

The more you practice, the better the benefit.

在我写《更富有、更睿智、更快乐》时，即使比我平时还要紧张得多的时候，我发现丹·哈里斯的App‘10%更快乐’非常有帮助，这个App包含了你之前提到的两位老师——约瑟夫·戈德斯坦和莎朗·萨尔茨伯格的课程，还有乔治·穆姆福德，我觉得他特别棒，他是勒布朗·詹姆斯和迈克尔·乔丹等人的导师。

One resource that I found very helpful when I was kind of even more of a nervous wreck than I am usually while I was writing Richer, Wiser, Happier, was I used Dan Harris's app, 10% Happier a lot, which has courses by both of those teachers you mentioned before, Joseph Goldstein and Sharon Salzberg, but also George Mumford, who I thought was terrific, who was a teacher of, I don't know, was it LeBron James and Michael Jordan, people like that.

我发现这些课程极其有帮助。

And I just found those courses incredibly helpful.

因为那时我还不打算去尼泊尔或印度参加长时间的静修。

Because I wasn't at that point gonna go off to Nepal or or something or India to do a long retreat.

如今我们能拥有这些App，真的非常幸运。

We're really lucky these days that we have these apps.

你可以把手机打开，在通勤时练习，如果你有通勤的话，或者在任何你能找到独处时间、专心致志的时候进行。

You can put on your phone and do it any you know, do it while you're commuting if you commute or do it anytime you can find time alone and focus on it.

10% Happier 是一个很棒的应用程序。

Ten Percent Happier is a wonderful app.

正如你提到的，约瑟夫·戈德斯坦和莎伦·萨尔茨伯格，这两位是该应用中的老师，他们非常非常出色。

And as you mentioned, yeah, Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, two of the teachers on that app, and they're very, very good.

我推荐

I recommend

你从伯克利大学大三时就开始冥想了。

You've been meditating since you were a junior at Berkeley.

对吧？

Right?

这已经超过半个世纪了。

So this is well over half a century.

而且自从你写了《改变的特质》并研究了冥想的科学、发现了冥想的剂量效应——即你做得越多，实际效果就越明显之后，我觉得你对冥想的态度变得越来越认真了。

And I think you've got more and more serious about it since you wrote Altered Traits and you studied the science of meditation, what it's and discovered the dose response, what it's actually doing, the more you do.

但对于那些还没深入这项练习的人来说，对于相信帕累托原则的人而言，哪种冥想方式最实用呢？

But for those of us who aren't in the deep end of the game yet, what sort of meditation is most practical for people who believe in the Pareto principle, right?

也就是八二法则。

The eightytwenty.

他们希望以最少的努力获得最大的益处，从而保持冷静和专注，减少焦虑。

They they wanna get most of the benefits for the least amount of effort so that they can remain calm and focused, have less anxiety.

这样他们就能做出更好的决策，无论是作为投资者，还是与同事、配偶，或任何其他人相处时。

So they're more likely to make good decisions, whether it's as an investor or with their colleagues or with their spouse or whoever it might be.

我建议每天进行十五到三十分钟的呼吸练习。

I'd recommend fifteen to thirty minutes a day of that breath exercise.

正如你所指出的，刚开始时可能很难做到。

And as you point out, at the beginning, it may be hard to do.

你可能会非常分心，因此有人引导你完成练习会很有帮助。

You may be very distracted, which is why it's beneficial to be able to listen to someone guiding you through it.

所以如果你刚开始，能使用一个应用程序就再好不过了。

So if you can get an app, if you're just starting out, all the better.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你基本上只是在观察呼吸。

And so you're basically just watching the breath.

当你发现自己的注意力分散时，把注意力拉回来，这就像一种心理训练。

And then as you catch your your attention wandering, it's kind of the mental rep of bringing back the attention.

这就是主要的好处吗？

Is that the main benefit there?

你的大脑发生了什么变化？

What's happening to your brain?

我推测，而且有数据支持这一点：每次你注意到思绪飘走并将其拉回时，你都在强化保持专注的神经回路。

I suspect, and there's data that suggests this, that every time you notice your mind wander and you bring it back, you're strengthening neural circuitry for staying focused.

想想看，你一天中在读一篇非常重要的文章，不管是什么内容。

And think about it, in your day, you're reading a very important article, whatever it may be.

突然间，你收到了一条提示音，有人给你发了短信，或者发了邮件。

And all of a sudden you get a ping, I got a text, I got an email.

你一看手机，下一秒就刷起了推特，注意力就完全分散了。

You look at your phone and next thing you know, you're on Twitter and you lost your concentration, which was up here.

等你再想回来时，注意力已经跌到低谷，要花好一阵子才能重新集中。

When you go back, it's going to be down here and it's going take you a while to get it up again.

但如果你做了这个简单的练习，你就是在训练大脑全神贯注、保持专注，并学会放下干扰。

Unless you did that simple exercise because what you're doing is training your brain to pay full attention, to concentrate, and basically to let distractions go.

所谓的正念时刻，就是你觉察到思绪飘走，并将它拉回来的那一刻。

The moment of mindfulness, if you will, is the moment you notice that your mind has wandered and you bring it back.

就是这么简单。

It's that simple.

这就像健身房里的重复训练。

It's like a rep in a gym.

每次举起重量，你都在让肌肉变得更强大。

Every time you lift the weight, you're making the muscle that much stronger.

大脑也是如此。

Same thing with your brain.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的消息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

你知道是什么让最优秀的企业脱颖而出吗？

You know what sets the best businesses apart?

是他们如何利用创新将复杂性转化为增长。

It's how they leverage innovation to turn complexity into growth.

这正是亚马逊广告在AWS人工智能支持下所做的事情。

That's exactly what Amazon Ads is doing, powered by AWS AI.

每天，亚马逊广告处理数十亿次实时决策，优化整个310亿美元广告生态系统的广告效果。

Every day, Amazon Ads processes billions of real time decisions, optimizing ad performance across a $31,000,000,000 advertising ecosystem.

结果是广告活动运行速度快30%，并能大规模产生可衡量的业务影响。

The result is campaigns that run 30% faster and deliver measurable business impact at scale.

而这正是亚马逊自身实现增长的方式。

And this is how Amazon itself drives growth.

他们的智能AI将营销从一个资源密集型流程转变为一个智能自主系统，最大化投资回报率，并让营销人员专注于创意和战略。

Their agentic AI transforms marketing from a resource heavy process into an intelligent autonomous system that maximizes ROI and empowers marketers to focus on creativity and strategy.

亚马逊广告正在证明，人工智能驱动的广告不仅仅是未来，更是新的竞争优势。

Amazon Ads is proving that AI driven advertising isn't just the future, it's the new competitive advantage.

更棒的是，每一家企业都可以应用亚马逊内部完善的同一套创新方法论。

And better yet, every enterprise can apply the same innovation playbook that Amazon perfected in house.

前往 aws.comai/rstory 了解亚马逊广告的故事。

See the Amazon ad story at aws.comai/rstory.

网址是 aws.com/ai/rstory。

That's aws.com/ai/rstory.

初创公司行动迅速。

Startups move fast.

借助人工智能，它们的开发速度更快，也更早地吸引了企业客户。

And with AI, they're shipping even faster and attracting enterprise buyers sooner.

但大单带来了更大规模的安全与合规要求。

But big deals bring even bigger security and compliance requirements.

SOC 2 并不总是足够的。

A SOC two isn't always enough.

正确的安全措施可以促成交易，也可能导致交易失败。

The right kind of security can make a deal or break it.

但哪位创始人或工程师能抽时间离开公司建设去处理这些事呢？

But what founder or engineer can afford to take time away from building their company?

Vanta 的人工智能和自动化功能能让您在几天内准备好拿下大单。

Vanta's AI and automation make it easy to get big deals ready in days.

Vanta 持续监控您的合规状态，确保未来的交易不会被阻拦。

And Vanta continuously monitors your compliance so future deals are never blocked.

此外，Vanta 会随着您的业务成长而扩展，并在每一步都提供及时的支持。

Plus Vanta scales with you, backed by support that's there when you need it every step of the way.

随着人工智能改变法规和买家的期望，Vanta 深知所需内容及时机，并已打造了最快、最便捷的路径，助您达成目标。

With AI changing regulations and buyers' expectations, Vanta knows what's needed and when, and they've built the fastest, easiest path to help you get there.

因此，认真的初创公司都会早早借助 Vanta 实现安全合规。

That's why serious startups get secure early with Vanta.

我们的听众可通过 vanta.com/billionaires 获得 1000 美元优惠。

Our listeners get $1,000 off at vanta.com/billionaires.

访问 vanta.com/billionaires 可享受 1000 美元优惠。

That's vanta.com/billionaires for $1,000 off.

新的一年到了，这正是实现你一直以来梦想创业的最佳时机。

It's the new year, which means that it's the best time to finally start the business you've been dreaming about.

就在几年前，我启动了自己的电子商务业务，而 Shopify 正是我起步所需的完美工具。

Just a couple years ago, I launched my own e commerce business and Shopify was exactly the tool I needed to get started.

尽管许多人一再推迟梦想，等到明年再行动，但我在这里告诉你：现在就是抓住眼前机遇的时候。

While many people continually push off their dreams until the next year, I am here to tell you that now is the time to capitalize on the opportunities right in front of you.

Shopify 为你提供在线和线下销售所需的一切工具。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数百万创业者，包括我自己，都已经从普通人跃升为初创企业主。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started.

你可以从数百个精美的模板中选择，并使用其内置的 AI 工具撰写产品描述或编辑产品图片。

Choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize and use their built in AI tools to write product descriptions or edit product photos.

随着你的成长，Shopify 将一路陪伴，与你共同进步。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you every step of the way.

在2026年，停止等待，立即用Shopify开始销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月1美元的试用版，今天就开始在shopify.com/wsb销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

那就是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

在今年初，让Shopify陪伴在你身边。

Hear your first This new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

显然，专注力对我们所有人来说都至关重要，尤其是对许多投资者而言，他们如芒格常形容巴菲特那样，即使年过九旬仍是信息的狂热消费者。

This whole issue of focus obviously is hugely important to all of us, and particularly for a lot of investors who are voracious consumers of information as Munger often refers to Buffett as a learning machine even in his nineties.

你提到过，你写了一本非常棒的书叫《专注》，我上周刚读过，本来想放在我的书堆里，但它在我Kindle里。

And you've mentioned, you wrote a terrific book called Focus that I was reading last week, which I would have on my stack, but it's in my Kindle.

这本书叫《专注：卓越的隐藏驱动力》。

It's called Focus, The Hidden Driver of Excellence.

你在书中提到，注意力就像一种心理肌肉，使用越多就越强，反之则会退化。

And you were mentioning there, you were talking about attention as this mental muscle that grows with use or atrophies.

显然，由于技术的发展，我们所有人都面临更大的挑战——海量的信息和数据不断消耗着我们的注意力，还有无休止的邮件、短信和来自推特的通知。

And obviously this has become much more of a challenge for all of us because of technology with this massive influx of information and data that just consumes our attention, all of these nonstop emails and texts and notifications from Twitter.

我一说到这个就喘不过气来。

I get breathless as I talk about it.

我总是被这些事情搞得心神不宁。

And I am constantly in a state of scatteredness between all of these things.

现在我很难再安静地独处了。

It's very hard for me to sit peacefully on my own anymore.

我总是想：天啊，我该去看看我的推特通知了。

I'm like, God, I should check my Twitter notifications.

应该去看看LinkedIn。

Should check LinkedIn.

我应该检查一下邮件。

I should check my email.

我应该看看短信。

I should check text messages.

如果我不做这些，就应该听播客或有声书。

If I'm not doing that, I should be listening to a podcast or an audio book.

所以我感觉自己的大脑已经乱了。

And so I feel like I've scrambled my brain.

我怀疑自己只是我们大多数人状态的稍微极端版本。

And I suspect I'm a sort of slightly extreme version of what most of us are like.

你能谈谈如何应对来自科技的这些持续干扰吗？

Can you talk about how to deal with these constant distractions that are coming from technology?

认知科学中有一句名言：信息消耗的是注意力。

There's a saying in cognitive science, what information consumes is attention.

信息丰富意味着注意力稀缺。

A wealth of information means a paucity of attention.

如今，一些估计表明，我们在给定的时间内——比如一天——接收到的信息量是过去的五倍。

And today, some estimates are that we get about five times more information in a given time statement, a given day, for example.

而二十年前，我们只有十分之一。

And we did ten, twenty years ago.

正如你所指出的，干扰正在呈指数级增长，情况比以往任何时候都更糟糕。

It's just been increasing exponentially, the distractions, as you point out, far worse than ever.

我听过一位人士的演讲，他是第一代iPhone的设计者之一。

I heard a talk by a fellow who was one of the designers of the first iPhone.

他说，我们尽可能把它设计得诱人。

He said, we made it as seductive as we could.

他说，现在我有了孩子，我真的很后悔。

He said, today, I have kids and I really regret it.

我们所有人面临的问题是，我们不断被诱惑。

Is the problem that we all face is that we're seduced constantly.

我们被诱惑的东西是注意力。

What we're seduced for is attention.

注意力，我们的眼睛，才是广告商想要的。

Attention, our eyeballs is what advertisers want.

这也是应用想要的。

It's apps want.

我们停留的时间越长，对他们就越有利。

And the longer we stay on it, the better for them.

但这意味着我们正被拉离当下、当天最重要的一切。

But that means that we're being pulled away from what matters to us most that moment, that day.

因此，我认为我们都面临着增强注意力这一能力的需要。

And so I think we all face the need to strengthen the muscle of attention.

我认为，如今比以往任何时候都更需要，因为这关乎基本的自我保护。

I think today more than ever because it's just basic self defense.

在这持续不断的干扰浪潮或 distraction 云中，我该如何保持对重要事物的专注？

How am I gonna stay focused on what matters to me in the midst of this ongoing welt or this cloud of distraction.

你在实际生活中如何使用科技？

What do you do in practical terms with technology?

因为我经常和你以及你可爱的妻子塔拉在一起，我见过你在餐厅、咖啡馆，还有我工作的联盟中心等地的样子。

Because I've hung out with you and your lovely wife, Tara, a fair amount, and I've seen you in restaurants and cafes and the Alliance Center where I work and places like that.

我似乎从不记得见过你拿起手机或分心的样子。

I I don't think I ever remember seeing you reach for your phone or being distracted.

你和塔拉身上有一种开放和专注的气质。

There's a kind of openness and presence to you and to Tara.

塔拉看起来就像根本没拥有手机的人。

Tara looks like someone who doesn't even own a phone.

她比我们高出一个层次。

She's on a different level from us.

直接从天堂下载信息。

Downloading directly from heaven.

你是如何处理科技的，让它不会干扰你们的关系？

How do you deal with technology so that it's not intruding in your relationship?

它不会在对话中分散你的注意力。

It's not distracting you in conversations.

它不会不停地拉走你的注意力。

It's not yanking your attention around constantly.

嗯，威廉，我有点幸运，因为我的生活方式不需要时刻保持警觉。

Well, you know, William, I'm I'm a little bit privileged in that I lead a life where I don't have to be on alert all the time.

我不必随时被电话召唤。

I don't have to be at the beck and call of a phone.

我就像一个高强度的冥想者。

I'm like an industrial strength meditator.

比如，我从不安排任何午饭前的活动。

I don't schedule anything before lunch, for example.

我喜欢在早上冥想和写作。

I like to meditate and write in the morning.

我觉得没有什么重要的事情会通过电话进来。

And I don't feel that there's anything that important coming in on a phone.

我宁愿专注于面前的人，而不是看手机。

I'd rather be present for the person in front of me than looking at a phone.

事实上，2009年《时代》杂志上有一篇文章，当时它还是主要的杂志。

In fact, in 2009, there was an article in Time Magazine, which was then the major magazine.

这篇文章说，英语中出现了一个新词。

The article said there's a new word in English language.

这个词是‘puzzled’。

The word is puzzled.

它是‘puzzled’和‘pissed off’的结合。

It's a combination of puzzled and pissed off.

当你和某人在一起时，对方掏出手机看手机而不是看你，你就会有这种感觉。

It's how you feel when someone you're with takes out their phone and looks at the phone instead of you.

那是2009年。

That was 2009.

如今的规范已经发生了巨大变化。

The norms have changed enormously.

人们现在经常不假思索地这样做。

People do it now all the time without thinking about it.

尽管现在我看到出现了一个新词，叫‘手机冷落’，即用手机冷落别人，意思可能差不多。

Although now I saw there's a new word, phubbing, which is snubbing with a phone, which may have the same thing.

但这反映了在与身边的人相处，或在Zoom上与人交流时，专注于对方与接收各种信息之间的紧张关系。

But it speaks to the tension between being present to the person you're with or on Zoom with whatever and all the incoming, whatever it may be.

我觉得，最好将对这些信息的注意力限制在特定时间段，而不是让它随时侵入你的生活，无论对你来说这意味着什么。

And I feel that it's good to limit your attention to the incoming, whatever that means for you, to certain periods rather than letting it intrude, you know, whenever it happens to come.

我 personally 在观察你交谈时深受触动。

I've been very struck personally in seeing you in conversation.

几周前，我一直在观察你。

I was watching you a couple of weeks ago.

我和女儿去吃冰淇淋时，遇到了你，便停下来和你聊了一会儿。

My daughter and I were going for ice cream and we ran into you and stopped and had a chat with you.

你当时正在和玛德琳聊天。

You were chatting with Madeleine.

你在对话中非常专注。

There's something you're very present in conversation.

有一种平静和开放的感觉。

There's a kind of calmness and openness.

我在想，我假设这很大程度上来自于冥想，但你也多年来一直在采访他人。

And I'm wondering, I'm assuming a lot of that comes from meditation, but also that you've been interviewing people for many years.

我想知道，这其中发生了什么？

And I'm wondering what's going on there?

这种能力是从哪里来的？

Where did that come from?

当你在对话时，你脑海中在想什么，才能让你如此专注？

What's going through your mind when you're in conversation that enables you to be so present?

我认为这与情商中的同理心方面有关。

So I think this has to do with the empathy aspect of emotional intelligence.

记住，那是第三部分。

Remember, that's the third part.

共情有三种类型。

And there are three kinds of empathy.

第一种是认知共情，理解一个人的思维方式。

One is cognitive, understanding how the person thinks.

第二种是情感共情，理解他们的感受，感知一个人的情绪。

The second is emotional, understanding how they feel, sensing how the person feels.

第三种是关怀，关心这个人。

Third is concern, caring about the person.

我喜欢与我所交谈的人保持在场状态，因为这传达了关怀。

And I like to try to be present to the person I'm with because that connotes caring.

全神贯注地关注你面前的人，这在商业世界中有时被称为领导力在场感，我认为非常重要。

Paying full attention to the person in front of you that, know, sometimes it's called executive presence in the business world, I think is very important.

你的女儿恰好特别迷人且令人愉快。

Your daughter happens to be particularly charming and delightful.

因此，完全专注于她是非常容易的。

So it's very easy to be fully present to her.

我不确定对其他人来说也是如此。

I'm not sure I am to everybody else.

她后来对我说：我想和他做朋友。

She said to me afterwards, I'd like to be friends with him.

这很有趣，一个21岁的年轻人和一个年纪很大的人——我不太懂数学，但你应该是七十多岁了吧？

And that was interesting, a 21 year old with a guy, I don't know, I'm not good at math, but you're somewhere in your seventies, right?

大概吧。

Somewhere.

我想是1946年。

In 1946, I think.

所以，是的，这挺美好的。

So yeah, that was kind of lovely.

我认为这是因为你非常专注。

And I think it was because you're very present.

这对我产生了一些影响。

That's something that's had an effect on me.

对吧？

Right?

我明白。

I see that.

我也在我们的朋友马特身上看到了这一点，他介绍了我们认识，他可能已经冥想了四十年左右。

And I see it also with our friend, Matt, who introduced us that he's another person who's meditated for probably forty something years.

有一种存在感和宁静，我在其他人身上看不到。

And there's a kind of presence and a calmness that I don't see in most other people.

你认为这是长期冥想的一大馈赠吗？

And is that one of the great gifts of long term meditation, you think?

很难区分个体差异。

Well, it's hard to separate individual differences.

马特或者我，早年就有这种倾向吗？

Did Matt or I have this tendency earlier on?

我不知道。

I don't know.

但数据显示，这种平静与专注——无论是针对你手头的项目、数字，还是他人——都会通过冥想练习得到增强。

But it's clear now from the data that that calmness and focus, whether it's on your project at hand, the numbers, or the other person, gets enhanced through meditative practice.

这一点毫无疑问。

No question about that.

那么回到同理心这个话题，这显然至关重要，你也对此写过、讲过很多。

So coming back to this issue of empathy, which is clearly critical and which you've written about and spoken about a lot.

我记得你曾经说过，让同理心和慈悲成为你的北极星是很好的。

I I remember you saying once, it's good to have empathy and compassion as your North Star.

有一位播客听众在推特上给我发消息，叫Flaubertus（如果我发音正确的话），或者他另一个名字叫Charging Bull Capital，他说：你能问问戈尔曼先生，我们该如何提升自己的同理心或对他人的觉察吗？

And there's a a listener to the podcast who wrote to me on Twitter, someone called Flaubertus, if I'm pronouncing this right, or Charging Bull Capital is his other name, who says, can you ask mister Goleman what we can do to increase our empathy or our awareness of others?

比如，有没有一个五分钟的练习或反思时刻，能让我们每天都能成为稍微更有情绪智慧的人？

Is there, for example, a a five minute exercise or moment of reflection that can make us a little more emotionally intelligent humans every day?

德国有一些非常有趣的研究，他们那里有德国的麻省理工学院，研究人员让参与者练习一种我称之为‘关怀圈’的练习，有时也叫慈心冥想，比如你可以在每天的呼吸冥想结束时进行。

There's very interesting research coming out of Germany, They have, like the MIT of Germany, where they had people practice an exercise that I call a circle of caring, sometimes called loving kindness practice, where you you might end your meditation on the breath with this daily, for example.

你想到生命中曾经善待过你、让你心怀感激并欣赏的人。

You think of someone in your life that's been kind to you, that you're grateful for and appreciate them.

你希望他们安全、快乐、健康，生活圆满。

You know, you wish that they'd be safe and happy and healthy and that the life be fulfilled.

你也会这样祝愿自己。

You wish it towards yourself.

你还会将这份祝愿给予你自然爱着的人，你的亲人。

You wish it toward the people you naturally love, your loved ones.

你默默地这样做。

You do this silently.

然后你将这份祝愿扩展到你认识的人、你的熟人、可能一起工作的人，再扩展到所有地方的所有人。

And then you extend it to people you know, your acquaintances, people you work with perhaps, and then to everyone everywhere.

你会花相当多的时间来做这件事。

And you spend a good deal of time doing this.

莎朗·萨尔茨堡教授这种练习。

Sharon Salzburg teaches this practice.

德国的这个研究所发现，这种练习似乎增强了关心与关怀的神经架构，这对我来说非常简单明了，因为它就像呼吸冥想一样，能帮助你保持平静和专注。

And the institute in Germany found that this seemed to strengthen the neural architecture for caring and concern, which seems pretty simple and clear to me because it's just like with the breath meditation that helps you be calm and focused.

结果发现，相同的神经回路能同时完成这两件事。

It turns out the same neural circuitry does both those things.

而对他人关怀、同情和慈悲则涉及不同的神经回路。

And then there's different circuitry for caring, concern, compassion toward other people.

这种关怀的循环正是锻炼这一回路的方式。

And that gets exercised by that circle of caring.

我有一位亲密朋友，我稍微隐去他的身份，他是一位精神科医生，专长于处理青少年以及经历过战争、患有创伤后应激障碍的退伍军人。

I have a close friend who's a I'm slightly concealing this person's identity, who's psychiatrist who's specialised in dealing with adolescents and people who've gone through war, veterans who have PTSD and the like.

他是个非常非凡的人。

He's a very extraordinary guy.

我记得他告诉我，他每天开车去退伍军人医院时，都会在途中进行慈爱冥想。

And I remember him telling me that he would drive to his VA hospital every day doing loving kindness meditation on the drive.

他说他有一位特别难相处的同事。

And he said he had a particularly difficult colleague.

每当这位同事说出一些让他抓狂的蠢话时，他就会在会议中静坐，默默进行这些冥想，比如：愿你快乐，愿你安全，愿你生活安逸。

And when this colleague would say stupid stuff that drove him absolutely nuts, he would just sit there in a meeting, silently kind of going through these meditations of things like, you know, may you be happy, may you be safe, may you live with ease.

我能看出他的变化。

And I could see the difference in him.

我的意思是，这些年来，我一直想，他怎么了？

I mean, like, over the years, I was like, what happened to him?

他变得越来越充满爱心和快乐，我一直这么说，虽然他本来就是个很棒的人。

And he did become like more and more he was always a lovely guy, but he became more and more loving and joyful, I would say.

我认为这确实有效。

I think it does work.

现在有大量的研究数据表明，人们确实会变得更有善意、更慷慨、更利他、更外向且更关心他人。

The data, there's a lot of research on it now shows people do become kinder, more generous, more altruistic, more outgoing and caring toward other people.

所以我不感到惊讶。

So I'm not surprised.

而且，我想莎朗·萨尔茨堡在《10%更快乐》应用里教授这个方法，虽然我不太想为它做广告。

And again, I think Sharon Salzberg teaches that on the 10% Happier app, which I hate to be a shill for.

我并没有因为推广它而获得报酬，但它真的帮了我很多。

And I'm not being paid to be a shill for it, but it really helped me.

我认为这是一个非常有用的App。

I think that it's a very helpful app.

你在《改变的特质》一书中提到了明亚仁波切，这位伟大的西藏瑜伽士，以及他在修习慈悲冥想时大脑中的变化。

You have an extraordinary thing in Altered Traits where you talk about Mingya Rinpoche, one of these great Tibetan yogis, and what was going on in his brain when he was doing Well compassion meditation.

这可是深水区了。

This is the deep end of the pool.

你能谈谈当时在我们观察到他的大脑中究竟发生了什么吗？

Can you talk a bit about what actually we saw in his brain?

于是，里奇·戴维森分别将这些瑜伽士从尼泊尔、印度和欧洲接了过来。

So Richie Davidson flew these yogis over from Nepal and India and Europe one by one.

其中一位就是明依仁波切，当时他已经完成了六万两千小时的冥想。

One of them was this yogi Mingyi Rinpoche, who at the time had done sixty two thousand lifetime hours of meditation.

如果你完成了一次传统的西藏三年三个月零三天的闭关修行，就会被计为大约一万小时。

Well, if you do a traditional Tibetan three year, three month, three day retreat, you get credit for about ten thousand hours.

所以这位仁波切已经积累了惊人的冥想时长。

So this guy had done huge amounts.

当他们让他进行慈悲冥想时，大脑中与之相关的神经回路在瞬间增强了700%到800%。

And when they asked him to do a compassion meditation, the circuitry in the brain for that increased in a moment by 700 to 800%.

在神经科学史上，从未见过如此显著的、主动引发的大脑回路激活变化。

Never been seen before in neuroscience, such a voluntary jump in the activation of a brain circuit.

而这是与慈悲相关的神经回路。

And this is a circuitry for compassion.

所以我觉得这简直令人震惊。

So I thought it was pretty astounding.

威廉，是的。

William Yeah.

我认为你的书所展示的一个了不起之处在于，我们如今从科学上证实了数千年来藏地修行者在洞穴中通过亲身体验所领悟到的东西。

I think one of the things that's so remarkable that your book shows is that we're seeing scientifically this thing that people sitting in caves for thousands of years in Tibet and and the like figured out experientially.

因此，你不再需要听起来像个玄乎的神秘主义者。

And so you no longer need to kind of sound like you're a woo woo mystic.

你可以真正展示大脑中正在发生什么。

You can actually show what's going on in the brain.

我说这话时自己也是一个玄乎的神秘主义者，所以我并不轻视这一点。

And I say this as a woo woo mystic myself, so I'm not I'm not dismissive of that.

关键是这样。

Here's the thing.

你知道，我脚踩两个世界：一边是亚洲的灵性与修行方法，另一边是科学、心理学等等。

You know, I kind of have a foot in both worlds, in the world of, you know, Asian spirituality and methodology, and the world of science and psychology and so on.

起初，这两个世界之间存在着巨大的鸿沟。

And at first, there was a huge gap between those worlds.

但随着科学对这些实践进行研究，它发现：嘿，你知道吗？

But as science has investigated these practices, it's finding, oh, you know what?

这真的有效。

This works.

在我看来，有一种古老的心理技术在许多亚洲文化中得到了很好的保存。

And it seems to me there's an ancient psychotechnology that's been well preserved in many Asian cultures.

现在它才开始在西方为人所知。

It's only now becoming known in the West.

我认为这非常重要。

I think it's very important.

威廉，这很有趣，因为巴菲特的合伙人查理·芒格，这位98岁的通才天才，研究过众多不同领域，他常说：我观察什么有效、什么无效，以及为什么。

William It's interesting because Buffett's partner, Charlie Munger, who's this 98 year old polymathic genius who studies all these different fields, will say, I observe what works and doesn't work and why.

而这正是其中一件非常有趣的事情。

And this is one of those things where it's really interesting.

你在实验室里观察它，在人们的行为中观察它，然后发现：哦，它真的有效。

You observe it in the laboratory, you observe it in people's behavior and like, Oh, it works.

因此，我注意到许多非常成功的投资者都练习冥想。

And so I'm struck by how many very successful investors meditate.

在这档播客中，我与雷·达利奥谈过，他基本上已经每天进行超验冥想二十到四十分钟，持续了五十年。

On this podcast, I talked with Ray Dalio about the fact that he's been doing transcendental meditation twenty minutes or forty minutes a day for fifty years basically.

而你看看这位作为对冲基金经理赚的钱比历史上任何人都多的人。

And so here you have the guy who's made more money as a hedge fund manager than anyone else in history.

我认为这很有趣。

And I think that's interesting.