RWH018：如何获得幸福——与措尼仁波切和丹尼尔·戈尔曼的对话

我问你该如何应对。

And I asked you how to deal with it.

你对我说，要与之共处，接纳它，感受身体里的这些情绪，不要试图评判或改变它们，只是静静地与之相伴。

And you said to me, well, stay with it, be with it, feel the emotions in your body without trying to judge them or change them, kind of resting with it.

但你也对我说，要对它微笑。

But you also said to me, smile at it.

这对我帮助极大，因为我总觉得这些事太过严肃。

That was incredibly helpful to me because I feel like I take all of this stuff much too seriously.

是的。

Yes.

你似乎更轻松、更接纳，当这些痛苦的情绪浮现时，你愿意以更温和的方式与它们共处。

You seem more lighthearted and more accepting that when these painful things come up, you're happy to sit with them in a gentler way.

真的吗？

Really.

是的。

Yes.

我只是像你说的那样，就那样陪着它，不指望它会消失，但它自己就消失了。

I just I feel as you say, and I just stay with that and not hoping that it will go away, but it goes away.

所以每当你心存希望，哦，我在做握手练习。

So whenever you have hope, oh, I am doing handshake practice.

哦，通过握手方法、握手练习法，我那美丽的怪兽就会转变。

Oh, through the handshake method, handshake practice method, my beautiful monster will transform.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的方法。

This is a great method.

我觉得你得跟那种感觉、那个想法握手。

I think you have to handshake that feeling, that thought.

这是你原本美丽的怪兽，然后握手就来了。

This is your original beautiful monster, then the handshake comes.

哇。

Wow.

握手是一种非常美好、奇妙的技巧和方法。

Handshake is so nice, wonderful technique, wonderful method.

我要把这个方法用在我的美丽怪兽身上。

I'm going to apply to my beautiful monster.

然后这又变成了怪兽。

And this is become monster again.

那个想法、那种感受希望通过这种方法不断转化、转化、转化。

That thought, that feeling want to transform, transform, transform by this method.

所以，再次，放下第一个。

So, again, drop the first one.

只是向第二个想法、第二个感受打个招呼，然后与之放松相处。

Just say hello to the second thought, second feeling, and relax with that.

只是放松。

Just relax.

然后就出现了一个空间。

And then there's a space.

我认为在西方，我们很多人如果

I think in the West, a lot of us If

你在这里放松，在这里放松，就会一直这样。

you relax here, relax here, then always like this.

所以我们必须一起放松。

So we have to relax together.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们总是冲突的话

Always clashing if we're

这样。

like this.

是的。

Yeah.

握手，放松。

Handshake man and relax.

但一开始，你的手可以放松，但你知道，那个美丽的怪物可能会稍微给你点颜色看看。

But at the beginning, your mind hand can be relaxed, but, you know, beautiful monster might bang you a little bit.

让我回退一下。

Let me go back.

所以丹在书中将它描述为激进的不抵抗。

So Dan describes it in the book, I think, as radical nonresistance.

所以，丹，你能谈谈这个吗？

So in a sense, Dan, can you talk about this?

因为你也非常了解这方面的科学。

Because you also know a great deal about the science of this.

你的哈佛大学心理学博士学位，而且你还娶了一位在正念和如何应对童年模式方面都是专家的人。

Mean, you have a PhD in psychology from Harvard and you're also married to someone who's an expert both in mindfulness and in a lot of these ideas of how to deal with patterns from our childhood.

你能从自己的角度补充一下吗？当这些情绪浮现时，不去压抑它们，而是去迎接、欢迎、热情地握手，而不是立刻用对立的方法去应对。

Can you add your own perspective on what's going on here by not suppressing this stuff when it comes up, but actually greeting it, welcoming it, handshaking it warmly, and not necessarily applying an antidote to it.

你知道，从西方科学的角度来看，当我查阅文献时，我相当惊讶地发现，比如斯坦福大学有非常出色的研究表明，人们只需简单地与情绪共处并接纳，不加评判，不试图去修复它，正如仁波切所说，不回避它，只是感受并接纳这些情绪，结果证明这非常有效。

You know, from a Western scientific perspective, I was quite surprised when I looked at the literature to see, for example, there's very good research at Stanford University on how people can just simply be with and accept without judging, without trying to fix it, as Rinpoche was saying, without avoiding it, just feeling the feelings and accepting the feelings turns out to be very powerful.

现在有一些很好的脑科学研究表明，如果你能保持这种接纳的态度，它就会像仁波切所说的那样逐渐消散。

There's good brain research on this now that shows that if you can have this kind of accepting attitude, it dissipates, as Rinpoche was saying.

这是一项实验室研究，与你的问题毫无关系，但数据完全一致。

And this was a lab study, had nothing to do with your problem, but it's absolutely convergent data.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的介绍。

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比特币不仅仅是为了人生。

Bitcoin isn't just for life.

它是为了世代传承。

It's for generations.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

几年前，我还另外开始多次阅读一本由前精神病医生大卫·霍金斯写的书，我认为他后来变成了一种开悟的神秘主义者。

There's also there's a book that I separately started to read multiple times a couple of years ago by, a former psychiatrist called David Hawkins, who I think became kind of an enlightened mystic.

他几年前去世了。

He passed away a few years ago.

他谈到了一种放下的技巧，这种方法非常相似，他认为，维持这些情绪和困难思维模式背后能量的，实际上是对此的抗拒。

And he talked about a letting go technique that's very similar, a mechanism, where he said, the thing that keeps the energy behind these emotions, these difficult thought patterns or emotions going, is actually the resistance to them.

因此他说，当你停止抗拒，只是允许它存在，与它共处，无论你是在冥想还是在日常生活中，因为正如佛教哲学所言，一切皆无常，事物会变化，强度自然会消退。

And so he said when you stop resisting and you just let it be and you just abide with it, whether you're meditating or just in regular life, because everything is impermanent, as we know from Buddhist philosophy, things change and the intensity kind of dissipates.

这有共鸣吗？

Does that resonate?

这是对正在发生的事情的准确描述吗？

Is that a fair description of what's going on?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我认为许多不同的传统都得出了相同的洞见，只是路径不同。

I think that many different traditions have come to the same insight, different avenues.

我不认识大卫·霍金斯，但他的观点完全说得通，无论是从科学角度——与情绪共处而不抗拒、不执着，只是接纳——来看。

So I didn't know David Hawkins, but it makes total sense, both from a scientific point of view, being with without resisting, without attaching, just accepting.

科学正是这样告诉我们的。

That's what the science is telling us.

但你的传统也是这样告诉我们的。

But it's also what your tradition is telling us.

他所说的也是如此。

It's what he's saying too.

我认为这本质上都是同一件事。

I think it's all the same thing.

这对我来说非常深刻，因为我觉得它真的能改变人生，因为我们从小在西方长大。

It's very profound to me because I think actually life changing because we grew up in the West.

我们并没有真正被教导如何应对自己的情绪。

We weren't really taught how to deal with our emotions.

对吧？

Right?

当负面情绪出现时，比如你感到不足、尴尬、羞愧或不够好，你根本不知道该如何应对。

And when negative stuff came up, like if you felt inadequate or you felt embarrassed or ashamed or not good enough, you couldn't really deal with it.

所以你可能会通过评判别人、憎恨自己、更加努力或苛责自己来处理这些问题。

So you would deal with it maybe by judging somebody else or by hating yourself or by working harder or by beating yourself up.

因此，我认为这些方法在我的生活中确实起过作用。

And so there were all of these techniques that I think actually worked in my life.

它们在很多方面让我更成功，但并不能让你快乐。

They made me more successful in many ways, but they don't make you happy.

所以我觉得，我们从未被教会一种真正有效的方法，如果这么说能理解的话。

And so I feel like we weren't taught a good technology, if it makes sense.

今天我们谈到为学校开发一个针对孩子的项目，帮助他们实现这种内在成长，以免走上你所描述的那条老路。

We were talking today about developing a program for schools, for kids, to help them with this kind of inner growth so that they won't go down the usual path, which is what you're describing.

我们的社会奖励的是表现优异，而不是善良、平静或清醒。

Mean, our society rewards us for doing well, not for being kind or for being calm or clear.

我们不得不在人生的后期去发现这一点，就像你正在发现的那样。

We have to find that later in life, you know, as as you're discovering.

但如果我们能从一开始就帮助孩子们获得这种能力，我认为这将是一份伟大的礼物。

But if we could help kids get that from the beginning, I think that would be a great gift.

仁波切，您的‘完全存在’课程中有一句非凡的话，过去几年我一直反复聆听。

There's an extraordinary line, Rinpoche, from your fully being course, which I have listened to over the last couple of years.

我会在节目笔记中附上这句话，以及您书籍的参考资料和链接。

And I'll include this in the show notes along with references to your your books, links to your books.

您曾说过一句非凡的话：总有一天，我们所有美丽的怪兽都会信任我们，成为我们的朋友。

There's an extraordinary line where you say, one day, all of our beautiful monsters will trust us and be our friends.

您还说：安住于不评判的慈悲家园。

And you also say, rest in the kind home of non judging.

我觉得这个‘不评判’、不评判自己的理念非常有趣。

And I thought that was just really interesting, this idea of non judging, not judging ourselves.

您能谈谈这种不评判、不自我评判的态度吗？

Can you talk about that attitude of non judgment, non self judgment?

是的。

Yes.

如果我们正确地握手，那就是不评判，因为根本没有评判的余地。

If we do the handshake properly, then that is nonjudging because there's no way to judge.

这几乎是一种与美丽怪兽的合一状态。

It is with almost like a oneness with the beautiful monster.

所以那里没有空间。

So there's no space there.

就像它自己打开了。

Like so it opened by itself.

所以你只需在那里，一开始不要把自己当成一个分离的个体，让心智、自我执着停止靠近，只是微笑、倾听。

So you just be there, not like a separate at the at the beginning, maybe you stay nearby, the mind, the the ego fixation, stop staying nearby, and smile, listen.

慢慢地，慢慢地，只是保持在一起。

Slowly, slowly, just stay together.

一旦你保持在一起，不评判就是自然的。

Once you stay together, the non judging is natural.

然后，当然，你可以在某些时候应用它。

And then, of course, you can apply it sometime.

你可以相信，哦，这个就是你所知道的，那个美丽怪物的内在能力或本性。

You can, oh, this is you know, trust the capable or innate nature of the beautiful monster.

正如你所说，它是无常的，它会变化。

As you say, impermanent, it changes.

它并不是你固有的、你所知道的那种东西。

It's not your inherent, you know, thing.

它只是偶然出现，如果有合适的因缘，它就会打开。

It just came about, and then if there's a right cause and condition, and it will open up.

所以，主要的是，你要信任那个美丽怪物，而美丽怪物最终也会信任。

So mainly, you trust the beautiful monster, and the beautiful monster eventually trust.

然后，就这样了。

And then that's it.

开放就会发生。

The openness happen.

所以，你是在对那个美丽的怪物说，你想待多久就待多久。

So there there's a sense that you're saying to the beautiful monster, you you can stay here as long as you want.

我不需要摆脱我的恐惧、我的不足感、我的悲伤、我的嫉妒或我的愤怒。

I I don't need to get rid of my fear, my sense of inadequacy, my sadness, my jealousy, my anger.

这就像它是人性的一部分。

It's like it's part of being human.

我能看见你在那里，而我愿意和你相处。

It's I can see you there, and I'm okay hanging out with you.

这样的态度可以这样总结吗？

Is that an okay summary of that attitude?

确实有这样一种态度。

There's some kind of attitude like that.

是的。

Yeah.

但已经改变了。

But it changed.

秘密在于它改变了。

The secret is it changed.

但一开始不能期望太高。

But you cannot expect too much at the beginning.

哇。

Wow.

如果我练习握手，一切都会好起来的。

If I practice handshake, everything will be okay.

但它确实如此。

But it is.

这种美会从其中显现出来。

It will be this beauty will come out of that.

你在书中专门写了一章关于美丽怪物的主题，我真的很鼓励大家去读。

You have a whole chapter on this subject of beautiful monsters in the book, which I I really encourage people to read.

它描述了握手练习的四个步骤：你与美丽怪物——这种令人不安的情绪或模式——相遇，并与之共处，感受它，倾听它，等待并陪伴它。

It describes the four steps for handshake practice, where you're meeting the beautiful monster, this upsetting emotion or pattern, and you're being with it, feeling it, listening to it, and waiting, staying with it.

然后，我想是与它沟通，并使用林池仁波切所说的咒语：它是真实的，但并不真实。

And then I guess communicating with it and using the mantra that Rinpoche said, which is it's real, but not true.

这种感觉是真实的。

This feeling is real.

痛苦可能是真实的，但那个叙事并不真实。

The pain may be real, but the narrative's not true.

所以我非常鼓励大家去关注这一点。

So I really encourage people to look at this.

这非常、非常有帮助。

It's very, very helpful.

但你在书中提到，有时我们所面对的情绪实际上过于强烈，必须退一步，特别是当它涉及严重创伤时。

But you do mention in the book that sometimes the emotions that we're sitting with are actually kind of too intense and we have to back off, particularly if it's something that's been traumatic, really traumatic.

你谈到过，在进行握手练习时，如果浮现的情绪过于强烈，该怎么办？

You talk a bit about this idea of what to do when the emotions that come up are too intense when you're doing handshake practice?

你该如何应对？

How do you deal with it?

因为显然，如果生活中发生过极其灾难性的事件，你不希望再次创伤自己。

Because obviously you don't want to re traumatize yourself if something really catastrophic has happened in your life.

如果感觉太强烈，你该如何应对？

How do you deal with it if it's too intense?

当然。

Of course.

所以你需要回到一些让你感到安好的方面。

So you have to come back to some of your well-being areas.

也许先从呼吸开始，或者只是安住于身体的感觉中。

Maybe on the breath first, or just rest in the sensation of the body.

也许不要过于靠近那种情绪，那个内在的情感世界。

Maybe not to go close to the feeling, the inner feeling world.

不要离那个美丽的怪物太近，或者你内在可能有一个安全、放松、开放的地方，那就去那里，滋养它。

Not too close to the beautiful monster, or maybe you have a some place in your being there's a safe, relaxed, open place, and go there and nurture that.

持续滋养那个地方，然后时不时地跟创伤打个招呼，微笑一下，再回到呼吸上。我相信，即使是受过创伤的人，内心也一定有一些积极的东西。

And keep nurturing that and then time to time say hi to the trauma and then smile and then come back to your breath, your I'm sure even the traumatized people have something in their being.

那里有一种幸福感和安全感，所以去那里。

There's some well-being and like a secure feeling, so go there.

我把这称为基地营。

And that I call this base camp.

所以你就像回到基地营，然后再去攀登珠穆朗玛峰，处理那些困难的事情。

So it's like you're going back to the base camp, and then you go back to climb Mount Everest and deal deal with the difficult stuff.

是的。

Yes.

你可以做一些行走冥想。

And you can do a little bit of walking meditation.

我甚至很喜欢这个。

Even I like this.

只是感受当你做时

Just feel when you do

给正在听的人们搓一搓手。

Rubbing your hands together for people who are listening.

非常放松。

Very relaxing.

吸气。

Breathe in.

就这样轻轻地。

And just gently like this.

对于正在聆听的人，仁波切正用双手轻轻抚摸自己的手臂，可以说是在安抚自己。

For for people who are just listening, Rinpoche is rubbing his arms gently with his hands, so he's kind of soothing himself, I would say.

然后让觉知停留在那里。

Then just awareness land there.

你带着那种感觉安住下来，放松。

You land with that feeling and relax.

然后，也许通过那扇门，你可以与一位美好的上师连接。

And then maybe through that door, you can connect with a beautiful master.

而且，时不时地，如果你能，也改变一下认知信念。

And then time to time, if you can, change the cognitive belief also.

认知信念。

Cognitive belief.

就像那样。

Like that.

换句话说，你正在想什么？

What you're thinking about, in other words?

念头开始改变，对念头友善一些，哦，我知道念头总会这样想，但只是觉察到它，与它一起放松。

Thinking start to change, be kind to thinking, oh, I know thinking is thing will think this way, but just aware of that, relax with that.

然后你会慢慢感觉到，我称之为茶包。

Then slowly you will feel I call tea bag.

茶在那里，那里有个茶包。

Tea up there, there's a bag there.

所以那个茶包可能是一种创伤。

So that tea bag could be a trauma.

或者创伤加上其他东西。

Or trauma plus something else.

所以你可能与一系列创伤握手，而不是主要的创伤感受。

So you can handshake maybe with a retinue of trauma, not the main traumatic feeling.

所以一个打开，另一个打开，减少强化，减少反应，即使我们有强烈的创伤，但周围始终存在开放性。

So one open up, second open up, and less reinforce, less reaction, then although we have intense trauma, but there's always openness around it.

因此，我们正在努力寻找这种开放性。

So we are trying to find that openness.

而这种开放性将包容或承载创伤体验。

And that openness will embrace or hold the traumatic experience.

所以这再次是一种温柔与温暖的态度，而不是对抗。

So it's again an attitude of gentleness and and warmth rather than fighting.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

完全不抵抗。

Not fighting at all.

有时候我说的对抗，你知道，创伤可能会稍微击倒你。

A fight, sometimes I call it, you know, trauma might beat you a little bit.

你就接受它。

You just take it.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

然后太多了，你就稍微退开一点。

And then too much, then you go away a little bit.

然后再回来。

And then come back again.

待在附近，待在附近，也许是个好地方。

Stay nearby, and stay nearby, maybe good place.

也许是个美好的回忆，也许是个平静的地方。

Maybe good memory, maybe a calm place.

是吗？

Yes?

在身体中找到一些放松。

Find some relaxation in the body.

嗯。

Yeah.

有趣的是，这与创伤治疗的方法相似，因为当你与治疗师处理创伤时，你也在建立一种信任的关系，并感到安全。

And interesting that this parallels a therapeutic approach to trauma because when you work with a therapist with trauma, you're doing the same sort of establishing a trusting alliance and you feel safe.

在这种方法中，有时他们会谈到自我调节剂量，这确实是一种看待接近或靠近的不同方式。

And sometimes in this approach, they talk about dosing yourself, which is really, I think, different way of thinking about being near or approaching.

你只接受你能承受的量，不要过多。

You take it only as much as you can and not too much.

因为你的问题其实是：当感觉太多时，你该怎么做？

Because your question was really, what do you do when it's too much?

每次都承担一点小风险，慢慢进入。

And Always take little risk, go in every time.

一点点，我进来了。

Little bit, I'm coming in.

一点点，更靠近了。

Little bit, coming closer.

一点点，更靠近了。

Little bit, coming closer.

但要温柔地。

But gently.

当然。

Of course.

非常温柔。

Very gentle.

非常温柔。

Very kind.

非常温柔。

Very kind.

在那次静修期间，你对我说了一句让我印象深刻的话，你说，你的那些美丽的怪物现在已经伤害不到你了。

You said something striking to me during that retreat where where you said, you know, your beautiful monsters can't hurt you now.

你不需要再害怕它们。

You You don't need to be afraid of them.

这让我感到安心，哦，原来如此。

And it was kinda reassuring to be like, oh, okay.

你知道，这些童年和青年时期的回忆，感觉非常强烈。

You know, this this stuff feels intense, all these memories of childhood and youth.

但确实，很多时候我们都会建立起强大的防御机制，来抵御一切痛苦的事物。

And but, yeah, it was I think so much of the time we build this very strong defense against anything that's painful.

尤其是对男性来说，如果你是一个有抱负的男性。

May maybe particularly for men, if you're, like, an ambitious man.

你觉得自己必须坚强、硬朗，假装自己没有脆弱之处。

You're like, I've got to be strong and tough and pretend that I'm not vulnerable.

所以，听到其实你可以对这一切更温柔一点、更幽默一点，真的是一种解脱。

And so in a way, it was a real relief to hear, well, actually, you can be a little gentler with it, a little more amused by it all.

谢谢你。

So thank you.

你有权利感受。

You're allowed to feel.

你有权利，你知道的，哭泣。

You're allowed to, you know, cry.

你可以哭，但不要评判自己。

You cry, but not judging.

这仅仅是一种馈赠。

It's just a offering.

你也可以笑。

And you can laugh too.

你可以笑。

You can laugh.

我打算在采访过程中尽量不哭。

I'm gonna try not to cry during our interview.

我会等到之后再哭。

I'm gonna wait till afterwards.

所以，仁波切，我想转向另一个我深知您深思熟虑的挑战性话题，那就是压力以及您所说的‘匆忙’。

So, Rinpoche, I wanted to turn to another challenging subject that I know you've thought about a great deal, which is the whole issue of stress and what you call speediness.

显然，过去三十多年里，您已走遍世界各地，在美国、英国、丹麦、台湾、香港以及许多其他地方传授教法。

And obviously you've traveled around the world a great deal for more than thirty years now teaching in The US and The UK and Denmark and Taiwan and Hong Kong and many other places.

我想先问问，您在美国等国家观察到这种压力、繁忙和您所说的‘匆忙’现象时，有什么发现？

And I'm wondering first what you've observed in countries like The US about this kind of this challenge of stress and busyness and and what you call speediness.

您能否谈谈这里文化上正在发生什么，以及它如何体现在我们的身体上？

Can you talk about culturally what's going on here and also how it's manifesting in our bodies?

然后我们可以再讨论一下该如何应对。

And then we can talk a bit about what to do about it.

我认为这种文化从童年起就鼓励人们做任何事都要快，从不给人们留出思考或停顿的时间，总是需要以快速模式行事。

I think the culture really encourage do everything fast from childhood, doesn't give any time to wonder or, like, always need to do something in the fast mode.

否则你可能无法完成任务。

Otherwise you might not accomplish.

因此，来自环境的这种持续信息会进入我们的系统——我称之为细微身，包括粗重的身体和认知心智，而在两者之间，有一个感受的世界，我称之为细微身。

So that constant message from environment goes into our, I call our system, our subtle body, the gross body and the cognitive mind, but in between there's a feeling world, I call the subtle body.

而这些信息就这样进入了我们的系统。

And that, you know, went into the system.

然后你又继续推动它，继续随它而行。

And then then you move that again and then going with that.

当你年轻的时候，这还比较可以接受。

When you are young, it's quite okay.

但总有一天，它会失去控制，失去平衡。

But the one day, that become out of control, out of balance.

你的内心渴望稍微放松一下。

Your mind want to be a little relaxed.

你的身体也想要放松。

Your physical also wants to be relaxed.

但在能量层面，我总想赶紧去做。

But this movement in the energy world, I want to I wanna go.

我想做这件事。

I want to do this.

我想去预订。

I want to book.

所以我称之为速度的失衡。

So I call this unbalanced of speed limit.

所以它总是像我所说的，汽车处于空挡状态。

So it's always like I call, like, car is in the Neutral.

空挡。

Neutral.

油门踩到底，但车却原地不动。

And the full accelerator, the car is going nowhere.

只是在加速。

Just speeding.

比如，你四天后需要去机场，但你的加速行为却让你在真正到达之前已经多次‘去过’机场。

Like, if you need to go to airport after four days, but your speeding is is went to airport many times before you really arrive there.

所有这些匆忙的事情，哦，回头。

And everything about a rush, oh, back.

我需要回头。

I need to back.

我正在和朋友说话。

I'm going talking to the friend.

所有这些令人压抑、空洞、忙碌的状态，实际上就是压力的根源，我发现的。

All this like loomy, I call that, airy, busy, that actually is the cause of stress, I found it.

如果你意识到这一点，然后通过某种技巧或冥想练习保持适当的平衡，那么健康的速度就会在你的能量身体中流动。

If you're aware of that, and then you can keep the right balance with some technique or meditation practice, then the healthy speed is moving in your energetic body.

那么，让我们详细谈谈如何做到这一点，仁波切，因为这本书提供了一些非常具体的方法来降低这种能量。其中一种是你提到的呼吸控制法——腹式呼吸。

So let let's talk about how to do this in some detail, Rinpoche, because the book offers some very specific ideas for how to bring down this energy when it's One of them, though, there's a breath control method you talk about, belly breathing.

你能简单描述一下如何使用腹式呼吸吗？我想你 either 躺在地板上 or 坐在椅子上。

Can you just give a basic description of how you can use belly breathing where you I guess you either lie on the floor or you sit on a chair.

那你具体怎么做呢？

And what do you do?

你的注意力集中在肚脐周围。

You're you're focused around your navel.

你该怎么进行这种呼吸？

How do you do this?

当你处于快速模式时，所有的能量都会往上冲到脖子和头部，变得急躁不安。

When you are in the speedy mode, so everything goes up into your neck, head, the speediness.

就像这样。

It's like this.

通过呼吸和正念觉知，缓慢吸气，将能量慢慢带下来，进行深沉的腹式呼吸，在吸气时稍作停顿。

So by the help of breath and mindful awareness, slowly breathe in, bring down, and you do a belly breathing, deep breathing, and of the breathing in, stop little bit.

所以你的腹部就像一个气球。

So your belly is like a balloon.

对吧？

Right?

吸气时腹部会向外扩张，然后你屏住呼吸，是的。

And it's expanding out as you breathe in, and then you hold the breath Yes.

大概屏住八秒钟，类似这样？

For, like, eight seconds, something like that?

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

嗯。

Yeah.

八秒、五秒、四秒。

Eight second, five second, four second.

舒服就好。

Whatever is comfortable.

嗯。

Yeah.

啊。

A

稍微屏住一下，然后放松，再吸气。

little bit hold it, and then let it go and breathe in.

总有一天，这会变得非常自然。

And one day that become very natural.

你会知道当你真正进入CBD状态时，一切都会向上提升。

You will know when you are really in that CBD, everything went going up.

威廉，事实证明，这些方法的科学研究表明它们是有效的。

And William, it turns out that the scientific studies of these methods show it works.

它真的能让你从交感神经系统模式（即压力下的紧张状态）转向副交感神经系统模式，也就是休息与恢复状态。

It really shifts you from the sympathetic nervous system mode, which is the stressed speediness to a parasympathetic, which is your rest and recovery.

而且这是生理上发生的。

And it happens physiologically.

事实证明，这是一种非常有效的方法。

It's a very powerful method it turns out.

因此，在西藏，这种方法是自发地从印度传入的。

And so in Tibet, that was discovered spontaneously- From India.

例如，你也能在瑜伽中找到相同的方法。

And you find the same methods in yoga, for example.

现在科学研究表明：你知道吗？

And now the scientific studies are saying, you know what?

这真的有效。

This really works.

你在这里呼吸得太急促了。

You breathing too much up here.

是的。

Yeah.

不是在胸部，而是在腹部更低的位置。

Not not so much in the chest and more down in the belly.

更像是腹部在呼吸时这样扩张，然后在那里稍微停顿一下。

More like belly is doing like this, expanding when you breathe in, and then hold a little bit there.

然后有一天，你做得越来越少，于是你意识到，哦，我的快速能量就在那里。

And then one day you do less and less less, and then you know, okay, my speedy energy is down there.

我更自由了，我的脖子放松了，眼睛更平静了，我的感知更像是一种时间般的生活。

I'm more free, my neck is free, my eye is more cool, and my perception is more like a time kind of life.

然后你在工作时、处理事务时保持这种状态，你知道，你可以做到。

And then you hold that while you're working, while you're in the doing your business, and, you know, you can do that.

在你的新书《丹》的科学部分中，丹解释说这具有多种积极益处。

And the in the scientific part of your new book, Dan explains that this has an a whole array of positive benefits.

其中一个好处是，你对困扰事件的反应减少了。

Think one of them is that you're triggered less by troubling events.

但还有一个好处是，当你处于这种放松状态时，你的恢复能力更强，我认为你更有韧性。

But one of them is that you recover better, I think, when you're in this kind of relaxed state, that you're more resilient.

是这样吗，丹？

Is that right, Dan?

是的。

Yeah.

例如，在实验室科学中，韧性的技术定义是你从情绪高峰恢复到平静清晰状态的速度。

The technical definition, for example, in laboratory science of resilience is how quickly you recover from the peak of upset to getting back to calm and clear.

结果发现，你越频繁地使用这些方法，恢复得就越快。

And it turns out the more you do these methods, the quicker your recovery.

因此，当我们查阅所有关于冥想和呼吸等的文献时，发现了一个明显的剂量反应关系。

So that's one of the strong effects we found when you looked at all of the literature on meditation and on breathing and so on, is that there's a dose response.

你做得越多，就越不容易被触发，即使被触发，强度也越低，恢复得也越快。

The more you do it, the less triggered you are, the less intensely you're triggered, and the more quickly you recover when you are.

那么让我们更具体地谈谈冥想，因为显然我们已经讨论了书中描述的几种方法，比如呼吸技巧和握手练习。

So let's talk more specifically about meditation because obviously we've talked about a couple of the techniques that you describe in the book, this breathing technique and the handshake practice.

但这本书名为《我们为何冥想》，显然这是我们这里讨论的核心内容。

But the book is called Why We Meditate, and it's clearly a central part of what we're discussing here.

你在书中讨论了几种不同的技巧，帮助我们在感到散乱、不专注和困惑时通过冥想平静内心、冷静下来。

There are a couple of different techniques that you discuss in the book for how to settle the mind and cool us down through meditation when we're feeling scattered and unfocused and confused.

仁波切，你能给我们一些非常简单的指导，教我们如何通过专注于一个支持性对象来平静内心吗？最常见的是呼吸。

Can you, Rinpoche, give us some very simple instructions for how to settle the mind by meditating first on an object of support, whether it's the, I guess, most common one is the breath.

你能解释一下我们应该怎么做吗？

Can you explain how we would do that?

好的。

Yeah.

我认为在那之前，我会先做一个放下冥想，让心态、呼吸和动作三者合一，然后放下。

I think before that, I will do a dropping meditation, like a neat gesture, attitude in the mind, and breath, three things come together, you drop.

比如心态，好吧。

Like attitude, okay.

无论发生什么，就让它发生。

Whatever happens, happen.

无论没发生什么，也让它发生。

Whatever doesn't happen, happen.

没关系。

Doesn't matter.

我要放下了。

I'm going to let it go.

同时，你的手就这样自然垂落，呼气时就像

And at the same time, your hand just drop like that, and the breath out is like

这样。

this.

所以

So

对于只听而不看的人而言，本质上就是你将双手轻轻放在膝盖上，同时呼气。

for people who are who are listening to this rather than watching, it's essentially that you're kind of you're dropping your hands onto your lap and you're exhaling.

所以，你是在放下心中的态度。

So it's like, and and so you're dropping the attitude in your mind.

你正在让自己更多地脱离思维，仁波切，而更多地回归身体？

And you're you're so you're bringing yourself more out of your thinking mind, Grinpoche, and more into your body?

这就是正在发生的事吗？

Is that what's happening?

嗯，思维、身体，一切都在内。

Well, thinking mind, body, everything.

比如，思维在上面，不停地想各种事情，忙个不停，根本看不到真正的放松。

Like, you know, thinking mind is up there, thinking all different kind of things, you know, busy, cannot see the actual relaxation.

所以你得对思维说点‘不’，放下思维，去觉察身体。

So you have to say a little bit to no to the thinking mind and the drop thinking mind and aware of the body.

然后就在那里停留一会儿。

And just stay there for a while.

然后你依然拥有觉知的心。

And then you have still the knowing mind.

觉察依然存在。

You have still the awareness is still there.

清晰依然存在，但不再喋喋不休。

Clarity is still there, but not chatting.

聊天停止。

Chatting drop.

你显然没有看过我的内心，仁波切。

You you haven't looked inside my mind, obviously, Rinpoche.

当我处于这种状态时

When I'm in this state

我的意思是，你

I mean, what do

当你的思绪飞驰，你会说，好吧。

we do here when your your mind is racing and you're like, okay.

我想放松。

I wanna relax.

于是你说，我要进行这种放下。

And so you say, I'm gonna do this dropping.

我要开始平静下来。

I'm gonna start calming down.

所以，你坐在垫子上、地板上、沙发上或椅子上，把手放在膝盖上，呼气，慢慢放松，试着感受你的身体。

So you sit there on your cushion or on your floor or on your sofa or on your chair, and you drop your hands down to your lap and you exhale and you kind of let go and you try to feel your body.

然后你的思绪开始飞驰，你开始想：等等，我有个截止日期，真不敢相信我妻子刚说了那句话，她真的要我去接孩子吗？

Then your mind starts racing and you start to say, but wait, I've got this deadline and I can't believe my wife just said this and really she wants me to pick up the kid?

当你的思绪开始飞驰时，你该怎么办呢？

Like, what do you do then when your mind starts racing?

然后你会意识到，确实有必要去接孩子，但别忘了冥想。

Then you see it is really necessary that I need to pick up my children, then don't wanna forget about meditation.

去接孩子吧。

Go and pick up.

但情况可能并非如此。

But it it might not be that.

也可能是一些别的事情。

It might be some other stuff then.

你知道吗，我认为仁波切有一些非常有力的咒语，可以配合‘放下’来使用，帮助你应对思绪纷飞。

You know, I think there's some powerful mantras that Rinpoche has that you can use with the dropping, which help you with the thought racing.

其中一个 mantra 是：谁在乎呢？

One of them is, who cares?

发生什么就是什么。

Whatever happens, happens.

当你放下时，如果能对自己说这句话，就意味着你能放下任何占据你思绪的牵挂。

If you can tell yourself that as you drop, that means you can let go of whatever preoccupation is capturing your mind.

我不是说永远放下。

I'm not saying forever drop.

我是说在那一刻。

I'm saying at that moment.

所以它为你打断了这个循环。

So it breaks the cycle for you.

我觉得这有点像握手练习，采取一种非常温和的方式。

I think kind of like the handshake practice where there's a very gentle approach.

当你采用放下的方法时，正如丹所说，这种方法在本书和在线的‘完全存在’课程中也有很好的描述，有一个 mantra：那又怎样？

When you do the dropping approach, which also is described very well in this book and in the Fully Being program online, as Dan was saying, there's this mantra, so what?

谁在乎呢？

Who cares?

这没什么大不了的。

It's no big deal.

我觉得像我这样的人，总是把一切都看得太严重，包括我自己和我所有的责任，其实这些责任也没那么重要，但我总觉得如果我不做，世界就会崩塌。

And I feel like for someone like me who takes everything too seriously, including myself, it's and all my responsibilities, just trying to learn, which aren't really such major responsibilities anyway, but I act like the world is gonna end if I don't do them.

抱歉。

Sorry.

别把你的生活联系得那么紧密。

Don't go all the way about linking your life.

责任是有的。

There's a responsible.

当然，你必须承担责任。

Of course, you have to take responsibility.

但你必须留出一些空间，我们不可能永远抱着杯子不放。

But the you have to have some space moment that you we cannot hold cup forever.

不是吗？

No?

那发生了什么？

Well, what happened?

你的手和杯子连在一起了。

Your hand is attached with a cup.

你能拥抱你的妻子吗？

Can you hug your wife?

不能。

Cannot.

所以先把杯子放下吧。

So drop the cup for a while.

现在手自由了，就保持这种自由一段时间，然后你就能敞开心扉，再去拥抱丹尼。

Now hand is free and stay with that freedom for a while, then you can your fresh open, then you can hug Danny.

否则，我手里拿着所有的书，所有拖着我的东西。

Otherwise, I'm I'm holding all the books, everything that carry me.

我一直在背着这些东西，所以根本没法做好。

I'm carrying that all the time that I cannot really do well.

我没法和他交朋友。

I cannot make friend with him.

我必须画下来或者放下来。

I have to draw or put down.

但放不下，其实是心的问题。

But put down somehow cannot, is the mind.

因为没有实实在在的东西支撑着。

Because there's no solid things holding.

但如果有实实在在的东西支撑着，你就能放下了。

But solid things hold hold, then you can put it down.

但这就像一个心理上的鞍具，东西都挂在上面。

But this is like a psychological saddleboard that stuff is hanging there.

所以你需要有点勇气，勇敢地放下。

So you're little bit like courage way couragely drop.

没关系。

It's okay.

无所谓。

Doesn't matter.

发生了的就是发生了。

It's whatever happened, happened.

没发生的反而发生了。

Whatever doesn't happen, happens.

所以好吧。

So okay.

无所谓的事。

Whatever doesn't matter.

好吧，现在重要了。

Okay, now it matters.

现在我的健康关怀来了。

Now my healthy care comes.

我的健康责任来了。

My healthy responsible come.

我有点开放和放松。

I'm a little bit open and rested.

那我们该怎么办？

So what shall we do?

我能为你做些什么来解决冲突问题？

What can I do for you to solve the conflict problems?

因此，智慧源于开放。

So the wisdom come out of openness.

智慧不会像速度那样突然出现。

Wisdom not come out this like a Speedyness.

速度。

Speediness.

是的。

Yeah.

放松。

Unclenching.

我感觉我总是在紧绷着。

Feel like I'm always clenching.

你知道吗？

You know?

就好像我在与世界抗争，也在与我的责任抗争。

It's like I I'm fighting the world and fighting my responsibilities.

总是这样，你知道吗？

It's always like you know?

所以，我认为我喜欢你的方法，仁波切，因为它给了我许可，让我能对这件事更柔软、更幽默一些。

And so I think what I like about your approach, Rinpoche, is it gives me permission to be a little bit softer and more humorous about it.

是的。

Yeah.

稍微像个孩子一样。

Be child a little bit.

保持一颗童心。

Child heart for one.

然后放松出来。

Then come out.

你需要休息，真正的休息。

You need to rest, proper rest.

如果你还紧抓着不放，你就没有在休息。

If you're holding on that, you're not resting.

当你没有好好休息时，你就无法体验到开放的状态。

When you don't rest properly, you're not experiencing openness.

当没有开放时，内在的美就不会显现。

When there's no openness, the inner beauty not coming.

所以，好吧，假设我们已经完成了放下。

So, okay, let's say we've we've done the dropping.

一

One

事情没问题。

thing is okay.

你可以放下，放下，但有些东西你放不下。

You can drop, drop, but something you cannot drop.

即使你想放下。

Even you want to drop.

那就是最后的一点。

That is the little final one.

强烈的印记。

Strong imprint.

你不能就这样放下。

You cannot drop like that.

所以你需要一个握手。

So there you need a handshake.

嘿。

Hey.

你吗？

Are you?

我来了。

I'm coming.

你想丢掉的那些东西是不能丢的。

That you wanna drop cannot drop that.

但很多东西可以丢。

But many things can drop.

有两样东西是不能丢的。

Many two things cannot drop.

所以这时候你需要来个握手。

So there you need to come handshake.

所以如果你在放下时，却感到自己仍然有些不堪重负、焦虑，心想：我永远不够好。

So if you're dropping and you have a sense that you're still a little overwhelmed and anxious and you're like, I'm never gonna be good enough.

我永远无法应对这一切。

I can never handle all of this.

你看看那个，然后和它握手。

You look at that and you handshake that.

和它握手。

Handshake that.

就是这样。

That's it.

是的。

Yes.

对它保持放松。

And be relaxed with that.

我不能放下。

Oh, I cannot drop.

我不能放下。

I cannot drop.

你好。

Hello.

放下那个想法、感受和握手。

Away of that thought and feeling and handshake that.

所以只是温柔地与它同在，就像说：哦，你好。

So just being being with it gently and being like, oh, hi.

好的。

Okay.

嗯。

Yeah.

我看到那个旧情绪又出现了。

I see that old emotion coming up.

欢迎欢迎来到派对。

Welcome welcome to the party.

所以这有点像是承认那些出现的、你熟悉的模式。

So it's a little bit so acknowledging the stuff that comes up that's just your familiar patterns.

但不仅仅来自你的认知思维。

But not only from your cognitive mind.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

它来了。

It's coming.

欢迎。

You are welcome.

不是那样的。

Not like that.

你感受到了。

You feel it.

情感世界中有一种真实感，是相连的。

There's some honesty from the feeling world is connected.

我惊讶于自己前额感受到的紧张程度。

I'm amazed at how much tension I feel in my forehead.

你知道吗？

You know?

我看着它，心里想：真的吗？

I, like, look at it and I'm like, really?

就好像我试图通过不断皱眉来解决所有这些问题。

It's like I'm trying to crunch all of these problems by frowning enough.

你知道吗？

You know?

当你更清楚地意识到自己是如何在身体上应对这些事情时，这真的很有趣。

It's interesting when you see how you're dealing with this stuff in your body when you become more aware of it.

所以我一直在努力停止对抗，停止和自己对抗。

So I'm trying to stop fighting the whole time, fighting myself.

不。

No.

欢迎。

Welcome.

这是我的放松方式。

This is my and relax.

你得坐在我书房里，提醒我这一点，仁波切。

You have to sit in my study reminding me of this, Rinpoche.

如果你能通过FaceTime接入，那就非常有帮助了。

If you could dial in on FaceTime, that would be very helpful.

那么，回到下一步，我们已经完成了放下。

So to go back to the next step then, so we've done the dropping.

我们把双手放在膝盖上。

So we're dropping our hands onto our laps.

我们放松。

We're relaxing.

我们在说：管它呢？

We're saying, Who cares?

那又怎样？

So what?

发生什么，就发生什么。

Whatever happens, happens.

没发生什么，就没发生什么。

Whatever doesn't happen, doesn't happen.

一切都很好。

It's all fine.

然后我们想开始冥想几分钟，只是为了稍微专注于某个支持性对象。

And then we wanna start meditating for a few minutes just to get a to focus a little on on some object of support.

你能稍微讨论一下这种技巧吗？我认为这是一种贯穿所有冥想传统的基本技巧。

Can you discuss this technique a little, which is a very fundamental technique that runs through all meditation traditions, I think.

这叫做业力咬合冥想。

It's called karma biting meditation.

你选择一个温和的对象。

You choose one gentle object.