RWH059：威廉·格林问答专场

他接着问道，如果你要探究他们在变得富有、睿智和快乐之前的阶段，是否也曾经历过焦虑、自我怀疑、沮丧或其他典型的负面情绪？

And then he says, if you were to inquire into the period before they became rich, wise, and happy, was there any anxiety, self doubt, frustration, or any other typical negative emotions felt by them?

如果有的话，你观察到这群伟大投资者最终克服这些负面情绪并达成目标的共同特质是什么？

If yes, what's the common characteristic that you observe in this group of great investors to eventually overcome those negative emotions and get there?

这是个非常有趣的问题，我想这可能是许多正在事业上拼搏、渴望取得巨大成功的听众都会思考的问题。

That's a very interesting question, and I think it's probably one that a lot of our listeners who are hustling to become very successful in their careers think about.

我认为首先需要质疑问题中的一个假设，因为Eric提到我关注了许多已经变得富有、睿智且幸福的投资者。

And I I think I would first, I would challenge challenge one assumption in the question because Eric talks about how I focus on a lot of these investors who already become rich, wise, and happy.

但我认为，实际上他们大多数人并没有同时拥有财富、智慧和幸福这三者。

But, actually, I would argue that most of them don't have that trifecta of wealth, wisdom, and happiness.

正如查理在读完这本书时提到的，他震惊地发现许多伟大的投资者都经历过离婚。

I think as Charlie mentioned when he read the book, he was very struck by how many of the great investors got divorced.

我认为要取得非凡的成功，往往需要一种极端的专注，甚至是一种狂热，这会导致人们忽视生活中的某些其他方面。

And I think to be extraordinarily successful often requires a kind of extreme focus, almost a fanaticism that leads people to neglect certain other aspects of their life.

所以有时候他们变得极其富有，但并不那么明智。

So sometimes they become extremely rich, but not that wise.

有时他们变得极其富有，但并不那么快乐。

Sometimes they become extremely rich, not that happy.

这很难。

It's difficult.

要同时拥有这三者很难。

It's difficult to have all three.

我认识的人中有少数几个三者兼备，但他们绝对是少数。

There are a few people who I know who have all three, but they're a definite minority.

所以关于他们在成功前是否经历过这些艰难情绪的问题，比如焦虑、自我怀疑、沮丧等等。

So this question of whether they were dealing with these very difficult emotions before they became successful, like anxiety, self doubt, frustration, and the like.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我认为几乎所有我采访过的超级成功投资者都有一个共同点，那就是在早期他们都有强烈的渴望。

And I think one of the common denominators in pretty much all of the super, super successful investors that I've interviewed is that there was a great hunger in those early years.

他们怀有强烈的渴望，想要成功、成就一番事业、获得独立。

There was a great desire to make it, to make something of themselves, to succeed, to be independent.

想想查理·芒格谈到他对独立的渴望，他和沃伦真正想要的是不必屈从于任何人，不受制于能对他们发号施令的人。

Think of Charlie Munger talking about his hunger for independence, the fact that what he and Warren wanted was not to be subservient to anyone, subordinate to anyone who could tell them what to do.

他们不愿待在等级森严的大机构里听人差遣。

They didn't wanna be in some big hierarchical organization being told what to do.

想想像马里奥·加贝利这样的人，我之前采访过他。

Think of someone like Mario Gabelli, who I've interviewed before.

我在《投资大师》一书中写过他，并在《更富有、更智慧、更快乐》里少量引用过他的话。

I I wrote about him in the great minds of investing and quoted him a little bit in richer wiser happier, but not much.

马里奥出身贫寒，对金钱有着真实的渴望。

Mario came from a very poor background and really had this hunger for money.

我认为他是被赚钱和证明自己的动力驱使着，用他自己的话说，他是个'信息猎犬'。

He was driven, I think, to make money and to prove himself, and he was an information hound as he put it to me.

怎么说呢，他并不是那种超级知识分子类型的人。

Like, he just you know, he wasn't super intellectual.

他非常聪明。

He was very highly intelligent.

对阅读书籍或小说之类的东西毫无兴趣。

Wasn't interested in reading books or novels or anything like that.

据我观察，他对智慧毫无兴趣，但对出人头地有着强烈的渴望。

I would say he had no interest in wisdom as far as I could make out, but he had a great deal of hunger to get ahead.

想想威尔·丹诺夫这样的人，我在《更富有、更智慧、更快乐》一书中写过他。

Think about someone like Will Danoff, who I wrote about in Richer Wiser Happier.

有个精彩的故事——我记得藏在某个脚注里——我很喜欢讲述：几十年前威尔还是个年轻投资者时，曾去亚利桑那州凤凰城参加分析师会议，当时比尔·米勒（后来成为他密友）也是个年轻投资者。

There's a wonderful story that I think is tucked away in a in a footnote that I love telling of when Will went, I think, to an analyst meeting in Phoenix, Arizona decades ago when he was a young investor, and Bill Miller, who became a close friend of his, was a young investor.

有人介绍他们认识时，比尔·米勒告诉我他伸出手说：'嗨，威尔。'

And someone introduced them, and Bill Miller told me that he stretched out his hand and said, hi, Will.

很高兴认识你。

Nice to meet you.

我是比尔。

I'm Bill.

他说，威尔·丹诺德没有伸出手，只是说，我会打败你的，伙计。

And he said, Will Dannold didn't stretch out his hand and just said, I'm gonna beat you, man.

我会打败你的。

I'm gonna beat you.

所以我认为那种竞争精神，那种热情很早就存在了，这种对成功、对认可的渴望。

And so I think that kind of competitive spirit, that sort of fire was always there very early on, this desire for success, for recognition.

威尔·丹霍夫谈到多年前他的一位股东曾给他寄过一张照片。

And Will Danhoff talks about how there is one of his shareholders many years ago sent him a photo.

那是一对夫妇，寄给他他们刚出生不久的小宝宝的照片，并说，你知道，这就是你为之管理资金的人。

It was a couple, sent him the photo of their young child, their baby who had just been born, I think, and said, you know, this is this is who you're managing money for.

所以我认为他做得很好，真正把这个理念放在首位和中心，记住这里有一种服务的成分，但仍然保持着强烈的竞争精神。

And so I think he's done a great job of really keeping that idea front and center, remembering the idea that there's an element of service here, but there's still a great competitive spirit.

我的意思是，他曾经对我说过类似的话，坦率地说，我更在乎。

I mean, he said to me once something along the lines of, frankly, I care more.

我喜欢这样的说法——'我更在乎'，因为你知道，这是三个单音节词，但它们蕴含着巨大的力量。

And I love a phrase like that, I care more, because, you know, it's three three monosyllabic words, and yet, boy, do they have a lot of power to them.

这其中蕴含着某种本质的真理。

There's a there's a sort of essential truth to them.

那么这种在乎感从何而来呢？

So where does that sense of care come from?

我想，部分源于服务的渴望。

I mean, some of it's a desire to serve.

有些情况下，这种渴望往往是对金钱、认可或独立的追求。

Some of it sometimes in in many of these cases is a desire for money or a desire for recognition or independence.

我记得比尔·阿克曼曾对我说，他之所以渴望财富，就是为了能畅所欲言、为所欲为、思其所思，那是一种对独立近乎执着的渴望。

I remember Bill Ackman talking to me once about how he just really wanted to have money so that he could say what he wanted, do what he wanted, think what he wanted, you know, real desire for a sort of bristling hunger for independence.

因此我并非在颂扬这些特质。

And so I'm not really celebrating these characteristics.

我并不是说，哦，你就该这样。

I'm not saying, oh, this is what you should be like.

我不认为这种饥渴、激情与强度总能带来幸福。

I don't think always those characteristics, that kind of hunger and fire and intensity is a recipe for happiness.

最成功的人往往都怀有不满和驱动力。

There's dissatisfaction and a drive often to the most successful people.

我只是在描述我认为观察到的大量现象。

I'm just sort of describing what I think is what what I think just I I observe a lot.

我想埃里克问题的一部分潜台词是，我们都在处理自己的疑虑、焦虑和挫折，努力让事业腾飞并取得真正成功。

And I think part of the subtext of Eric Eric's question, if I'm understanding correctly, is, you know, we're all we're all dealing with our doubts and our anxieties and our frustrations as we try to get our careers airborne and become really successful.

所以在某种程度上，了解这些超级成功人士的经历很有帮助，你知道吗？

And so in a way, I think it's very helpful to know that these super successful people you know?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

其中一些人可能最初就拥有这种非同寻常的自信，但我认为很多人其实都经历过艰难时期。

Some of them probably started with this kind of very unusual self confidence, but I think a lot of them a lot of them went through difficult times.

他们中有很多人遇到了非常幸运的转机，最终恰好处于形势有利的位置。

A lot of them had very lucky breaks and ended up just in positions where things sort of broke right for them.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我是说，阿诺德·范登伯格的儿子斯科特曾告诉我一个故事让我印象深刻，斯科特后来成为了他父亲公司世纪管理的总裁。他讲述阿诺德在职业和个人生活多方面都取得了巨大成功。

I mean, I I I also I was very struck once a story that Arnold Vandenberg's son, Scott, who became president of his his company, Century Management, once told me where Scott looked at Arnold who had built a very successful life in so many ways professionally, but also personally.

阿诺德就是一个集财富、智慧与幸福于一身的典范。

And Arnold is a good example of someone who's rich, wise, and happy.

斯科特对他说——我想斯科特当时正处于事业初期挣扎阶段，大概二十出头，也可能是三十岁左右。

And Scott said to him I think Scott was sort of struggling early in his career, the soonest twenties, maybe maybe maybe 30, that sort of thing.

他问了阿诺德类似'你当年也很艰难吗？'这样的话。

And he said something to Arnold about, was was it hard for you?

极其诚实的阿诺德——他白手起家，早年生活异常艰辛——向他讲述了创业初期的一个下午，自己如何趴在办公桌上痛哭的经历。

And Arnold, who's incredibly honest and had started with absolutely nothing and had an incredibly difficult early life, talked to him about, in the early days of setting up his investment firm, just putting his head down on his desk one afternoon and just sobbing.

所以我认为，了解这些人的成功并非唾手可得很有启发。

So I think it's helpful to know that these people, it wasn't just handed to them.

他们同样经历过奋斗的艰辛。

They they had to struggle too.

这很困难。

It was difficult.

那么你如何克服这些负面情绪，我我也不知道。

And and so how you overcome those negative emotions, I I don't know.

我的意思是，我们在播客的很多期节目中，特别是与斯蒂格·布罗德森每季度的讨论中，多次谈到如何处理困难情绪。

I mean, we we've talked a lot in various episodes of the podcast, particularly my quarterly discussions with Stig Brodersen about how to deal with difficult emotions.

我有一期播客节目——也是我最喜欢的节目之一——在那里我与丹尼尔·戈曼和这位伟大的藏传佛教冥想大师索克尼仁波切讨论了如何处理困难情绪。

And I had an episode of the podcast, one of my favorite episodes of my podcast, where I talked to Daniel Gohman and this great Tibetan Buddhist meditation master, Sokhni Rinpoche, about dealing with difficult emotions.

我绝对建议大家回去听听那期节目。

I would definitely encourage people to go back and and listen to that.

但埃里克在提出这个问题时，还问了第二部分：如果你要探究他们成功后的心理状态，是什么原因持续驱使他们变得更富有、更睿智、更幸福？

But then Eric, in writing this question, also asked the second part of the question, which is if you were to inquire into their mental state after they have already made it, what is the one reason that keeps driving them to become richer, wiser, and happier?

我认为这是个非常有趣的问题。

And that's a that's a really interesting question, I think.

几个月前，我和一位八十多岁的著名投资者共进晚餐，那次经历非常有趣。

I I had a very interesting dinner a few months ago with a famous investor in his eighties.

拥有令人难以置信的业绩记录。

Has an incredible record.

他是个了不起的人物。

He's a formidable guy.

他谈到可能要成立一家新公司，尽管过去已经创立了多家非常成功的企业。

And he was talking a bit about maybe setting up a new firm, having already set up very successful firms in the past.

我就问他，为什么不干脆管理自己的资金呢？

And I said to him, why not just manage your own money?

我是说，这家伙已经赚了大把的钱。

I mean, this guy has already made huge amounts of money.

显然他并不缺钱。

Clearly doesn't need the money.

他有着极好的声誉。

He's got a great reputation.

他只回答了一个词。

And he just answered in one word.

他说是竞争意识

He said competitive.

我觉得这很耐人寻味，像他这样成功的人就是忍不住要竞争

I thought that was really fascinating that someone who's been as successful as him just can't help it.

他就是好胜心强

He's just competitive.

而且我...我真的很欣赏这个人

And and I I like this guy a lot.

他是个很好的人，但我觉得这类人往往有些心理缺陷，他们被这种强烈的竞争欲、求胜欲、追求更高回报和更多金钱的欲望驱使着

He's a very nice man, but I think I think there these are often kind of dysfunctional people harnessing this intense drive and desire for competition, victory, better returns, more money.

这没什么不好

And that's fine.

我并不是在批评这种现象

I'm not knocking any of this.

而且我...再说一次，我并不是在批判性地评价这件事

And I'm and, again, I I'm not saying this critically.

我只是想说，这并不是你应该成为的样子。

I'm I'm trying just and I'm and I'm not saying this is what you should be like.

我只是试图描述我所看到的。

I'm I'm just trying to describe what it is I see.

关于那些最明智、最幸福的人，我想说的是，他们成功地将那种强烈的欲望转化为造福他人的方式。

What I would say about the ones who are wisest and happiest is that they've managed to take that tremendous desire and transform it in some way to benefit other people.

如果你看看书中尾声对阿诺德·范登伯格的描述，你会发现这个人克服了难以置信的困难、痛苦、愤怒、失望和狂怒。

And if you look at the description of Arnold Van den Berg in the epilogue of the the book, you see that here's a guy who overcame unbelievable difficulty, unbelievable pain, anger, disappointment, rage.

要知道，他的人生起点再糟糕不过了，但他却成为了一个极其善良、正直、充满爱心且乐于分享的人。

You know, he couldn't have had a worse start to his life, and yet he's become this extraordinarily kind, decent, loving, sharing person.

我认为这指向了一个非常重要的事实：他始终在为他人着想。

And I think that points at something really important, which is that he's just looking out for other people.

他试图帮助他人提升。

He's trying to lift up other people.

所以我认为这里存在一个巨大的悖论：要取得非凡的成功，我认为你必须拥有那种渴望、那种强烈的欲望。

And so I think there's this great paradox here that to be extraordinarily successful, I do think you have to have that desire, that intensity of desire.

但要获得幸福，真正有帮助的是你专注于照顾他人、关心他人。

But to be happy, it really helps if you're focused on taking care of other people, looking after other people.

在很多方面，我在书的第一章中写到的莫尼什·帕布拉伊就是一个很好的例子。

And and in many ways, Monish Pabrai, who I write about in chapter one of the book, is a very good example of this.

他拥有一种奇特的能力，能够独自坐在房间里评估概率并做出决策。

He's he's taken his strange ability to sit on his own in a room and assess probabilities and make bets.

他利用这种能力创立了Dakshana基金会，帮助成千上万来自贫困家庭的聪明有才华的孩子摆脱贫困。

And he's used it to set up Dakshana, where he's lifted thousands and thousands of really talented, really smart kids from really underprivileged families out of poverty.

这是一件非常美好的事情，他做出了巨大的贡献。

And that's a really beautiful thing to observe, and it's he's done a tremendous amount of good.

他谈到将无限善行作为目标。

He talks about infinite good as a goal.

从我多年来与莫尼什的交谈以及和他一起在印度探访那些Dakshana学者的经历中，我清楚地看到，他生命中最热爱、最能带给他快乐的事，就是去拜访那些印度学者家庭。

And it's pretty clear to me from my conversations with Monish over the years and and from traveling with him in India to to go visit those those students, the the Dakshana scholars, the the thing he loves most, the thing that gives him the most joy in his life is actually when he goes to visit those families of the scholars in India.

所以这很有趣。

And so that's interesting.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，他过着充满热情的生活。

It you know, he has a zestful life.

他热爱赚钱。

He loves he loves making money.

他热爱投资。

He loves investing.

他对投资游戏充满热情、愉悦和快乐，但他没有忘记必须服务于更伟大的事业才能产生某种能量流动，我认为这不只是关于'看看我'。

He's he's full of full of zest and pleasure and joy at the game of investing, but he hasn't lost sight of the fact that it's got to serve some grander cause for there to be some kind of flow of energy, I think, where it's not just about, look at me.

我多么重要，多么聪明，多么成功，而是它实际上在造福他人。

I'm so important, and I'm so smart, and I'm so successful, but it's actually benefiting other people.

我认为这其中有一个重要线索——当你看到像莫尼什、阿诺德，或者我在书中也写到的尼克·斯利普和凯·西卡里奥这样的人，他们在45岁退出投资行业，基本上用人生后半段时光捐出大部分财产，以尽可能长期帮助最多的人。

I think there's an important clue in that when you see people, people like Monish, Arnold, or someone like Nick Sleep and Kei Sicario, who I write about in the book also, who quit the investment business at 45 and set out basically in the second half of their lives to give most of their fortunes away in a way that would help as many people as possible over the long term.

我觉得有趣的是，这些人看起来都很幸福。

That's interesting to me that those people seem happy.

同样地，像马克尔公司CEO汤姆·盖纳这样的人——我在'高效能习惯'章节中写过他——非常乐善好施、善良正直。

And likewise, someone like Tom Gaynor, who's very charitable and very kind and decent, the the CEO of Markel, who I write about in the chapter on high performance habits.

因此我认为我们必须清醒地认识到：那些让我们在职业或财务上取得巨大成功的驱动力，往往源自某些相当病态的东西（虽属必要但确实病态）——比如对认可、独立或金钱的渴求，或是向母亲、老师或更受宠的兄弟姐妹证明自己的那种野心。

So I think we have to be quite clear headed about our intention here and to be aware that the thing that's gonna make us very successful professionally or financially is often something pretty dysfunctional necessary, but pretty dysfunctional, which is that hunger and ambition and drive maybe for recognition, maybe for independence, maybe for money, you know, to prove yourself to your mom or your teacher who didn't admire you or your sibling who, you know, seemed to be loved more.

无论是什么负面情绪，你都可以驾驭它们来获得成功。

Whatever whatever it is, you can harness all of these negative emotions to be successful.

但要获得幸福，我认为整体上必须要有分享、利他、提携他人的元素。

But to be happy, I think there has to be on the whole this element of sharing, of focusing on others, of lifting up others.

这让我深受启发。

And that's very thought provoking to me.

所以某种程度上，我布道式的使命就是帮助人们明白：存在一种既能获得职业成功，又能以助人为主要动机的、真正富足丰盛的生活方式。

So I I think somehow we're part of part of my kind of proselytizing mission is to help people figure out that there's a way to have a truly rich and abundant life that includes that professional success, but that's also motivated pretty heavily by trying to help other people.

下一个问题来自以色列的一位听众——其实我认识她。

Our next question is from a listener in Israel who actually I know.

这位女士叫因巴尔·马奥兹，是高管沟通教练兼顾问，专长于帮助领导者提升公开演讲、故事讲述和战略沟通能力。

This is a lady named Inbal Maoz, and Inbal is an executive communication coach and consultant who helps people with public speaking and storytelling and strategic communication for leaders.

实际上，当我做TEDx演讲时，她是指导我的关键人物。

And, actually, when I gave my TEDx talk, she was a really key person in helping to coach me.

我非常感激她，因为关于这次TEDx演讲的经历，我偶尔会提起。

And I was hugely grateful to her because one of the things that happened to me with my TEDx talk is that I've talked about this occasionally.

那是在新冠疫情最严重的时期。

It was during it was in the midst of COVID.

当时我在美国伯克希尔的一个剧院演讲，由于社交距离限制，现场只能坐满三分之一的人，大家都戴着口罩。

And so I spoke in a theater in the Berkshires here in The US, and it could only be about a third full, and everyone was wearing masks because of social distancing and the like.

在那之前，我已经很久没有参与公开活动，一直待在家里。

And I'd I'd been I'd been at home sort of out of out of public life for a long time.

然后突然发现自己被抛入这种奇怪场景——站在舞台上，头顶着刺眼的聚光灯。

And then suddenly, find myself sort of cast into this strange situation where I'm I'm on a stage and I'm under these Klig lights.

我试图背下演讲稿，但当时实在太忙了。

And I tried to memorize my speech, but I was, like, really busy at the time.

演讲开始两分钟后，我卡壳了，把要说的话搞混了，这让我陷入一种'天啊'的慌乱状态。

And about two minutes into the speech, I think, I stumbled and kinda messed up what I was saying, and it kind of tipped me into this situation where I was like, oh my god.

我接下来要说什么来着？

What was I gonna say next?

我有点僵住了。

And I kind of froze.

而令人惊讶的是，当时大约20、21岁的女儿玛德琳，从大约25排远的地方喊出了我的下一句台词，完全救了我。

And and amazingly, my daughter Madeline, who was about 20, 21 at the time, actually called out my next line from about 25 rows back and totally saved me.

在一切都朝着我不希望的方向发展时，玛德琳出现并拯救了我，这个事实让我感到某种深深的触动。

And there was something kind of deeply moving about the fact that I was kind of saved in this moment of embarrassment and shame when everything went exactly how I didn't want it to go, that Madeline came and kind of rescued me.

你在视频中看不到这一幕，因为InBow非常贴心地把它剪掉了。

And you don't see this in the video because InBow very kindly edited it.

所以，你知道，你看不到这个瞬间。

And so, you know, you can't see this moment.

对我来说，这是最深刻也最感动的记忆。

That for me is the most kind of profound and kind of moving memory of the thing.

值得庆幸的是，这场TEDx演讲最终进行得非常顺利。

And so the TEDx talk has done really well, thankfully.

但对我来说，最难忘的部分莫过于在公众场合搞砸，经历了最害怕发生的事情，然后被玛德琳拯救，接着又被伊姆巴尔拯救。

But, you know, for me, almost the most memorable part of it is screwing up in public, having the worst you know, the thing I had dreaded happen, and then being saved by Madeleine, but then also being saved by Imbal.

因此我非常感激伊姆巴尔，在很多方面都是如此。

So I'm very grateful to Imbal on multiple fronts.

如果你需要有人帮助你进行公开演讲或TED演讲、TEDx演讲，她真的非常出色。

And if you ever need someone to help you with speaking with public speaking or a TED talk or TEDx talk, she's really great.

告诉我一声，我会帮忙联系她。

And let me know, and I'll help put you in touch.

所以伊姆巴尔的问题是：你从所有受访者那里学到的原则中，有哪些被你应用到个人生活中？它们如何影响了你的生活？

So Imbal's question is, which of the principles you learned about from all your interviewees did you adopt in your personal life, and how did it affect your life?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

有几件事我确实大规模采纳了，因为我花了大量时间与这些人相处、思考他们的观点，并试图提炼和分享我认为最重要的部分，这让我有绝佳机会将它们融入生活。

And there are a few things that I've adopted in a big way because I I spent so much time with these people and with their ideas and trying to distill their ideas and share what seemed to me most important that I I really have had a huge opportunity to incorporate them in my life.

我不仅写过这些内容，还在演讲、播客等场合多次谈论过它们。

And I I've I've not only written about them, but I've also spoken about them a lot in speeches and on podcasts and and the like.

所以我真的有机会深入思考对我来说最重要的事情。

So I I really had a chance to pound in the things that are most important to me.

对我产生深远影响的一个理念就是'减法艺术'。

So one of the things that had a really profound impact on me is this idea of the art of subtraction.

这个概念是说，在我们大多数人过度忙碌的时代，有太多信息输入、太多噪音、太多东西扑面而来，生活比以往任何时候都更快更复杂。

The idea that at a time when most of us are really overly busy and there are so many inputs, there's so much noise, there's so much coming at us, and life is faster and more complicated than it seems to have been ever before.

我认为在某些方面，真正的超能力就是这种简化复杂性的能力。

I think in some ways, the superpower is this ability to subtract complexity.

我在那些伟大的投资者身上一再看到这一点，比如比尔·米勒这样的人，他确实把自己的生活简化到了极致——读书、投资、思考、陪伴妻子。

And I've seen this again and again with the great investors that think of someone like Bill Miller, for example, who he he really has simplified his life to a to a point where he's reading, he's investing, he's thinking, he's hanging out with his wife.

他曾向我解释过，我很喜欢这个故事：有人问他是否能在美国的一个晚宴或庆典上发言。

He's he's he's like he explained to me once, I always loved this story that someone had asked him if he could speak at a at a gala or gala, as I think you would say, in America.

他说，是的。

And he said, yeah.

着装要求是什么？

What's what's the dress code?

对方说：‘需要穿黑领结礼服。’

And they said, black tie.

他却回答：‘不。’

And he's like, no.

‘我已经把燕尾服扔了，而且再也不会买新的。’

I threw out my tuxedo, and I'm never buying another one.

我特别欣赏这种态度——那种带着点倔强的自我认知，让他能直接说‘不’。

And I loved that, that there's a kind of self awareness, a slightly ornery self awareness that has him say, no.

‘我就是不打算这么做。’

I'm just not gonna do it.

‘我不会做这些不适合我的事。’

I'm not gonna do these things aren't right for me.

我记得去他在马里兰州的家里拜访时，那房子是他姐姐装修的。

And he I remember visiting him at this home that he had in Maryland, and it had been decorated by his sister.

他在佛罗里达还有一处住宅，我记得也是他姐姐负责装修的。

And he had a home in Florida that had also been decorated, I think, by his sister.

他养了一只斗牛犬，非常宠爱它，因为想要牛市就必须有只斗牛犬。

And he had a bulldog that he really loved because you have to have a bulldog if you wanna bull market.

他甚至在家里书房挂了幅斗牛犬的帅气肖像画。

And it even he had a a beautiful sort of handsome portrait of the bulldog in his library at home.

不过他妹妹经常遛那只斗牛犬。

But his sister used to walk the bulldog often.

他连汽车加油都不用自己动手。

He didn't even pump gas in his car.

他不乘坐商业航班。

He didn't fly commercial.

我想他大概有二十年没坐过商业航班了。

He hadn't flown commercial, I think, in twenty years or something.

是的，可以指出这点，好吧，这都很好。

And, yeah, it's fine to point out, well, it's all very well.

如果我也超级有钱，我也会这样生活。

If I was super rich, I would live the same way.

但实际上，减去复杂性并专注于最重要之事的理念是非常、非常可复制的。

But, actually, the idea of subtracting complexity and focusing on what matters most is very, very replicable.

所以观察像比尔这样的人对我产生了巨大影响，同样地观察莫尼什也是如此，他基本上说自己只是闲坐着，日程非常空，研究股票、阅读、做些运动、骑自行车、搞他的慈善事业。

And so watching someone like Bill had a big impact on me, but similarly watching Monish, for example, who said basically that he's he's just sitting around with a very empty schedule, studying stocks, reading, playing some sports, biking, doing his philanthropic stuff.

他会说他会和别人出去吃饭，如果他并不真正享受，他就会直接说'不'。

He would say he would go out for a a meal with someone, and if he didn't really enjoy it, he would be like, nope.

再也不见他们。

Never seeing them again.

就这样。

That's it.

不想与潜在客户会面，因为他就是不喜欢，他称之为所有那些营销废话，所以即使这意味着他会筹集更少的资产，他也不那么做。

Didn't wanna meet with prospective clients because he just didn't like because he called it the mumbo jumbo of all that marketing stuff, so he didn't do that even though it meant that he would raise fewer assets.

所以这其中有种固执的自我认知成分，就是明确表示：'我只做对我最重要的事和我最擅长的事'。

So there was an element of kind of ornery self awareness in just saying, I'm I'm only gonna do what matters most to me and what I'm best at.

因此我一直努力保持清醒头脑，坚持做我最擅长和最关心的事。

And so I've tried to be pretty clear minded about sticking to what I'm best at and what I care most about.

与此同时，我经常在简化生活方面彻底失败，因为我承担了太多事情，导致过于复杂，变得非常困难。

And at the same time, I failed totally a lot of the time to simplify my life because I take on too many things, and then there's too much complexity, and it becomes really difficult.

所以，也许正是因为我如此频繁地在减法艺术上失败，而实际上却在实践加法或乘法的艺术，才使得这个理念对我如此重要。

And so maybe maybe the fact that I fail so much at the art of subtraction and actually practicing the art of addition or multiplication is one of the reasons why this idea is so important for me.

我认为与之结合的一个重要理念，是我在关于尼克和扎克的章节中写到的'目的地分析'，这个概念我只相对简要地提到过，他们将其应用于选股。

And I think one of the things to combine with this is a hugely important idea that I write about in the chapter on Nick and Zach, which is this idea of destination analysis, which I only write about relatively briefly, which they applied to picking stocks.

对吧？

Right?

他们会观察像亚马逊和好市多这样的公司，然后说：'这是这家公司在十、十五、二十年后的理想目的地'。

So they would look at companies like Amazon and Costco, and they would say, here's a desirable destination for this company in ten, fifteen, twenty years.

要实现这个目标需要哪些条件？

What are the inputs to get them there?

然后他们会逆向思考：'这家公司是否善待股东？'

And then they would work backwards and say, well, is the company treating its shareholders right?

它是否善待顾客？

Is it treating its customers right?

它的资本配置是否明智？

Is it allocating capital intelligently?

他们是在试图取悦华尔街，还是真正在创造长期价值？

Are they trying to please Wall Street, or are they actually trying to create long term value?

对吧？

Right?

所以你要从一个理想的目标出发，然后逆向研究所需的投入。

So you start with a desirable destination and then work back to study the inputs.

正如尼克对我说的，大多数人只关注短期产出，这完全是错误的。

Whereas as Nick said to me, most people are just focused on the outputs, short term outputs, which is totally wrong.

所以当我思考该减去什么、该专注什么时，我不断在思考人生的目标终点是什么。

And so when I'm thinking about what to subtract and what to focus on, I'm constantly thinking about what the destination is and what the destination is in my life.

因此对我来说非常明确，比如我不想做那些转瞬即逝的事情。

And so it's pretty clear to me, for example, that I don't wanna be doing ephemeral stuff.

我并不是在批评其他这样做的人。

And I'm not knocking anyone else who does this.

每个人都有自己的生活方式选择。

Everyone everyone has their own twist on how they wanna live.

我对批量生产新闻简报毫无兴趣。

I'm not interested in pumping out a newsletter, a subset newsletter.

这根本不是我想要做的事。

It's just not what I wanna do.

我为周刊杂志工作多年，实在厌倦了生产大量平庸内容。

I worked for weekly magazines for many years, and I'm just not interested in pumping out lots of mediocre stuff.

确实有人能持续产出优质内容，我衷心佩服他们。

There are people who can pump out really good stuff and more strength to them.

但我做不到。

I couldn't.

我在很多方面都属于慢热型。

I have a kind of slow metabolism in so many ways.

比起数量，我更追求质量。

I'm much more interested in quality than quantity.

所以我更乐意每年做12、14或16期播客，而不是24、36甚至50期。

And so I'm much happier to do twelve, fourteen, 16 episodes of the podcast a year than I would be to do 24, 36, or 50 or so.

我实在无法忍受那样。

I just couldn't bear it.

我对最大化产出就是不感兴趣。

I'm just not interested in maximizing output.

当我思考人生终点时想要完成什么，回顾过去，我会觉得——好吧。

And when I think about what I wanna do by the end of my life, I look back and I think, okay.

如果我能写出三本真正引以为豪的书，那就太棒了。

If I've done three books that I'm really proud of, that would be fantastic.

目前我只完成了一本真正让我骄傲的书。

So I've done one book that I'm really proud of.

我是说，我确实代笔过不少书。

I mean, I've ghostwritten various books.

虽然那些作品很成功，但它们并不真正属于我。

I've been very successful and the like, but they're not really mine.

我曾编辑过几本杂志，与一些出色的作家共事，学到了一些技能，并在世界各地获得了非常丰富有趣的经历。

I edited a couple of magazines where I worked with some amazing writers, and I learned some skills, and I had some very, very rich, interesting experiences around the world.

但那些都是短暂的。

But that's ephemeral.

那些东西终将被遗忘。

That stuff will be forgotten.

所以对我来说，重要的是写一些真正有价值、能帮助很多人、真实且持久的东西，这给自己带来了很大压力。

So it's important to me that I write something really valuable and that really helps a lot of people and that's truthful and that's enduring, and that's a lot of pressure to put on myself.

因此我认为，当我最终决定要再写一本书时，这是个非常重大的决定，因为它可能会占据我生命中近十年的时间，包括规划、写作，以及之后四处宣传的过程。

And so I think, you know, when I actually finally decide I'm gonna write another book, it's a very big decision because it'll take over my life for much of a decade probably, including, you know, the planning, the writing, then the being out there talking about it.

所以目标分析对我来说非常重要。

So destination analysis is really important for me.

当我思考什么是真正充实幸福的生活时，显然必须包含美好的关系。

And when I think about what a really rich and happy life is, it's clearly got to have great relationships.

因此，在研究超级投资者的过程中，我得到了极大的启示：意识到人际关系在多大程度上推动了他们的成功与幸福，以及他们生活的丰富性。

And so that's been hugely clarifying for me in my study of super investors is to realize the extent to which their relationships really drove their success and their happiness, the richness of their lives.

这也让我更加清晰地认识到，在我那些年拼命想要出人头地、同时仅仅为了在杂志写作和编辑这个艰难行业中生存下去时，我自然而然地低估了人际关系的重要性，因为我当时太忙于工作了。

And so that's also been very clarifying for me that I think I in the years where I was really hungrily driving to get ahead and also just survive in the very difficult world of magazine writing and magazine editing, I naturally underestimated the importance of relationships because I was so busy working.

而我觉得现在自己不太会再犯这种错误了。

And I think I'm much less prone to do that now.

我现在对投资人际关系的重要性有了更加敏锐的认识。

I have much, much more much more of a keen awareness of how important it is for me to invest in my relationships.

所以这一点非常关键。

So that's been really key.

另一个从伟大投资者那里学到并深刻影响我生活的，是芒格关于'避免愚蠢'的理念。

And then the other thing that has affected my life hugely that I learned from great investors is Munger's idea of avoiding stupidity.

这已成为我经常使用的极其实用的工具。

That's become an extremely practical tool that I use constantly.

仅仅是在任何情况下都认真思考'不要做什么'这个想法，就非常有帮助。

And just just the idea of really thinking about what not to do in any situation is hugely helpful.

另外，通过观察最幸福的投资者以及我研究的所有更具精神性和哲学性的内容，我越来越清楚地认识到：服务他人和帮助他人显然极其重要。

And then I I think the other thing that's just become increasingly clear to me, not only from watching the happiest investors, but also from all of the more spiritual and philosophical stuff that I study, it's clearly hugely important to serve others and to help others.

而我当时确实没有太关注这一点。

And I I just think I wasn't that focused on it.

我的意思是，我本能地能感受到那些做得好的事物之美。

I mean, I think I had an inherent sense of the beauty of something that was well done.

比如，我对质量有着极致的追求。

Like, I was deeply committed to quality.

所以无论是写文章、代笔写书还是自己创作，我都竭尽全力做到最好，演讲也是如此。

So when I wrote an article or I worked on a book as a ghostwriter or as an author myself, I was deeply committed to doing as good a job as I possibly could, same with speeches.

我就是发自内心地在意品质是否出色。

Like, I I just really deeply care about quality being good.

部分动力是害怕被评价，担心别人觉得我平庸。

And it was some of it was driven by a fear of being judged and, you know, having people think I was mediocre.

还有部分动力纯粹源于对精美事物的天生热爱。

And some of it was just driven by an inherent love of things that are beautifully done, beautifully made.

但我觉得当时我并没有强烈的服务意识。

But I don't think I had a keen sense of service.

我直到四十多岁后期，可能接近五十岁时，才真正意识到将自己的才能用于帮助他人有多么重要。

I didn't really have a keen sense probably until pretty late in my forties and maybe around 50 of just how important it is to take your talents and use them to help other people.

而且，对很多人来说，这其实是显而易见的道理。

And, yeah, it's it's just much more obvious to a lot of other people.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我花了很长时间才明白这一点。

It took me a long time to figure that out.

因此，通过观察并逆向解析那些非常成功人士的生活，看他们在何处失败、何处成功以及什么让他们真正快乐，这让我深刻聚焦于诸如他们人际关系的质量、对少数能产生复利效应的简单习惯的坚持，以及剔除那些短暂、不重要或不发挥他们优势的事物。

And so, again, watching and trying to reverse engineer the lives of very successful people and seeing where they fail and where they succeed and what makes them happy really made me focus a lot on things like the quality of their relationships, the quality of their commitment to a few simple habits that would compound, and the the removal of all the stuff that was ephemeral or unimportant or didn't play to their strengths.

所以我认为，那种对自己最重要事务的极致专注，以及聚焦于自己最擅长领域的无情取舍，对我真的非常非常有帮助。

So I think that kind of ruthlessness about focusing on what matters most to you and focusing on what you're best at, That's been really, really helpful to me.

下一个问题来自听众帕林·梅塔，他是新加坡的一位投资人、董事会董事、风险投资家，同时也是创始人和高管的执行教练。

Our next question is from a listener called Parin Mehta, who is an investor and board director, a VC, and an executive coach to founders and executives based in Singapore.

帕林问道：在当今世界，对于那些想要应用您在《更富有、更智慧、更快乐》书中及访谈中提出的原则的人来说，需要克服的最大挑战是什么？

And Parin asks, what is the single biggest challenge to overcome in today's world for anyone looking to apply the principles you identified in the Richer, Wiser, Happier book and your interviews.

我认为这实际上与我们之前讨论的艺术家的吸引力有关。

And I think this is related actually to what we talked about before about the artist's attraction.

因为至少对我来说，可能对你们许多人也是如此，最大的挑战是那种要做更多、跑得更快、变得更忙的巨大压力。

Because I think the greatest challenge for me at least, and I assume for many of you, is this tremendous pressure to do more, to run faster, to be busier.

那种要接收更多输入、更多信息，并在这片喧嚣、忙碌和一切飞速运转中找到秩序、平静与清晰的巨大压力。

The the tremendous pressure to take in more inputs, more information, and somehow to find order and peace and clarity within this noise and this busyness and this speediness of everything.

因此我认为，在某种程度上，挑战不仅在于要削减事务并决定什么对你最重要，还在于要培养能为你带来内心平静的习惯。

And so I think in some ways, the challenge becomes not only to subtract stuff and to decide what it is that's most important to you, but also to build habits that are gonna develop peace of mind for you.

实际上当我查看帕林的领英资料时，发现他曾发帖说他喜欢在大自然中散步并与人们交谈，这让我印象深刻。

And it was striking to me actually when I looked up Parin on LinkedIn that he he had written a post saying that he he loves to walk in nature and to have conversations with people.

他会进行这种边走边谈的对话。

He'll have these walking conversations.

他有一个目标是在四十多岁时走完5000万步，他说这相当于地球的周长。

And he has this goal of walking 50,000,000 steps in his forties, which he said is the circumference of the earth.

显然帕林自己就深谙此道——懂得在工作世界中找到某种开阔感的重要性。

And so Perrin is clearly understanding this himself, the importance of somehow finding spaciousness within the world of work.

是这样的，你看

It's not it's it's look.

我们很多人都是雄心勃勃、充满干劲的，想在人生中成就一番事业

We're a lot of us are ambitious driven people, and we wanna do a lot in our lives.

所以我们并非想要退出竞争，而是需要在生活中注入更多从容的空间

So it's not like we're looking to opt out, but we need to inject more spaciousness our lives.

我对劳拉·格里茨这类人特别感兴趣，比如我在书中'高效能习惯'章节写到的她——一位极其成功、聪慧且充满干劲的投资人，出色的基金经理，在分析研究上极为严谨，却把投资挑战视为更像自由诗体（用她的话说），而非刻板的散文

And I'm very intrigued by people like Laura Gerrits, for example, who I wrote about in the high performance habits chapter of my book, who is very successful, very smart, very driven investor, a very good fund manager, who's extremely rigorous in her analysis and her research, but who regards the investment challenge as more like more like freestyle verse, as she puts it, you know, free verse rather than just stilted prose.

她将这种思维方式也应用到了自己的生活方式中

And she applies this mindset to the way she lives her life.

比如每周五她都会安排这种自由随性的日子，常常带着日记本和书坐在溪边，纯粹地阅读、思考、整理思绪

So on Fridays, she'll have these very free form days where she'll often go sit by a stream with a journal and a book, and she'll just read and think and gather her thoughts.

这是一种非常理性且平和的投资方式

And so it's a very cerebral, very peaceful way of approaching the investment game.

但与此同时，她也会进行大量环球旅行，走访世界各地无数企业

But at the same time, she travels a tremendous amount and and goes to visit enormous numbers of companies around the world.

所以她工作强度很大也很努力，但同时又保持着一种开放自由、不那么刻板的姿态。

So she's working really intensely and really hard, but there is this sense of openness and freedom that's that's less rigid.

我们先稍事休息，听听今天赞助商的消息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

想象一下用真正懂你客户的技术来扩展业务。

Imagine scaling your business with technology that understands your customers, literally.

这就是Alexa和AWS人工智能背后的故事。

That's the story behind Alexa and AWS AI.

Alexa每天处理超过10亿次交互，涵盖17种语言，同时将客户摩擦减少40%。

Every day, Alexa processes over 1,000,000,000 interactions across 17 languages, all while reducing customer friction by 40%.

这不仅仅是让生活更便利，更是要转变客户互动方式并创造新的收入来源。

It's not just about making life easier, it's also about transforming customer engagement and generating new revenue streams.

幕后由AWS人工智能驱动着70多个专业模型协同工作，打造自然对话，展示了企业如何安全可靠地大规模部署AI。

Behind the scenes, AWS AI powers more than 70 specialized models working together to create natural conversations, proving how enterprises can deploy AI at scale with confidence and security.

Alexa的AI能力在亚马逊庞大业务中经过实战检验，实现了可量化的大规模影响。

Alexa's AI capabilities were battle tested across Amazon's massive operations, delivering real measurable impact at scale.

这些相同的创新如今为其他企业提供了一个经过验证的框架，可提升效率、开辟新收入来源并获得持久的市场优势。

These same innovations now give other businesses a proven framework to boost efficiency, unlock new revenue streams and gain a lasting market edge.

了解Alexa的故事，请访问aws.comai/rstory。

Discover the Alexa story at aws.comai/rstory.

网址是aws.com/ai/rstory。

That's aws.com/ai/rstory.

小时候，我们总梦想成为任何人——宇航员、总统或是王子。

When we were young, we used to dream of being anything, an astronaut, the president, a prince.

但随着年龄增长，梦想会改变，从统治世界转向如何将技能与想法转化为现实。

But as you get older, your dreams change, focusing less on running the world and more on how you can take your skills and ideas and turn them into something real.

不再幻想遨游太空或拥有城堡，你开始梦想经营自己的事业。

Instead of dreaming of going to space or owning your own castle, maybe you start dreaming of owning your own business.

你需要网站、支付系统、品牌标识以及吸引新客户的营销手段。

You'll need a website, a payment system, a logo, and a way to advertise to new customers.

这一切可能令人手足无措，但幸运的是，今天的赞助商Shopify能为你解忧。

It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but thankfully that is where today's sponsor Shopify comes in.

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Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses all around the world and 10% of all e commerce in The US.

从美泰、Gymshark这样的家喻户晓品牌，到像我这样刚起步的品牌都在使用。

From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands like mine that are still getting started.

与Shopify合作就像拥有一位商业专家在身边，提供世界级的专业支持。

Working with Shopify is like having a commerce expert at your side with world class expertise.

让Shopify助你将宏大的商业构想变为现实。

Turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side.

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Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

网址是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

初创企业的节奏很快。

Startups move fast.

借助人工智能，他们能更快推出产品，更早吸引企业级买家。

And with AI, they're shipping even faster and attracting enterprise buyers sooner.

但大交易会带来更大的安全和合规要求。

But big deals bring even bigger security and compliance requirements.

SOC2认证有时并不足够。

A SOC two isn't always enough.

合适的安全措施能促成交易，也能毁掉交易。

The right kind of security can make a deal or break it.

但哪位创始人或工程师能抽离宝贵时间，不去专注公司建设呢？

But what founder or engineer can afford to take time away from building their company?

Vanta的人工智能和自动化技术让大交易准备在数日内轻松完成。

Vanta's AI and automation make it easy to get big deals ready in days.

Vanta持续监控您的合规状态，确保未来交易永不受阻。

And Vanta continuously monitors your compliance so future deals are never blocked.

此外Vanta随您业务扩展，全程提供及时的支持保障。

Plus Vanta scales with you, backed by support that's there when you need it every step of the way.

面对AI不断改变的法规和买家预期，Vanta精准掌握需求节点，并为您打造了最快速便捷的达标路径。

With AI changing regulations and buyers' expectations, Vanta knows what's needed and when, and they've built the fastest, easiest path to help you get there.

这就是为什么严肃的初创企业早早选择Vanta来确保安全。

That's why serious startups get secure early with Vanta.

我们的听众可以在vanta.com/billionaires获得1000美元优惠。

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访问vanta.com/billionaires即可享受1000美元折扣。

That's vanta.com/billionaires for $1,000 off.

好的。

All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

前几天我突然想到。

And it struck me the other day.

我最近花了很多时间与一位出色的对冲基金经理相处。

I I I spent a bunch of time recently with a terrific hedge fund manager.

他是位非常成功的对冲基金经理，行事低调不张扬。

He's very successful hedge fund manager who kind of flies below the radar.

所以我从未正式采访过他。

So I've never formally interviewed him at all.

他过去确实拒绝过我的正式采访请求，但我们后来成了朋友。

He's actually turned me down in the past for a formal interview, but we've become friends.

前几天我们聊到他的冥想习惯时，他说这些年来他可能已经冥想了两万个小时。

And we were talking the other day about his meditation habit, and he was saying that he's probably meditated for twenty thousand hours over the years.

他谈到这是多么巨大的优势，帮助他管理着这家拥有数十亿美元资产管理规模的大公司，因为他说如果不冥想，他可能只能管理一个三人的小公司。

And he was talking about what a tremendous advantage that's been, that it's helped him to run this big company with billions dollars under in assets under management because he said he would have been able to run a company maybe with three people if he hadn't meditated.

但要经营一家更大的公司并真正保持专注，冥想是无价之宝。

But to run a a bigger company and to be really present, the meditation has been invaluable.

当你在他身边时就能感受到这点。

And you feel that when you're in his presence.

他的举止中有一种开放性，一种从容感，以及谈话时那种专注的特质——在投资行业这样忙碌、紧张、竞争激烈的领域里，这种特质非常罕见。

Like, there's a there's an openness to his manner, a spaciousness to his manner, and a centered quality to the way he is in a in a conversation that I could see as a very rare and unusual characteristic in in a busy, intense, hugely competitive business like the investment business.

所以对我来说，当我看到这样的人——他们既能在常规职场中非常成功高效，又能保持从容淡定时，我就会想：这就是榜样。

So I think part of it for me is that when I see people like that who are able somehow to be very successful, very productive in the regular work world, and yet have a sense of spaciousness and calm, I think, okay.

我得逆向解析他们的做法。

I've I've gotta reverse engineer what they're doing.

所以和他共处时光是我更加投入冥想的原因之一——虽然我一直坚持冥想练习，但有时会更严格或更热情。

And so just spending time with him was one of the reasons why I've sort of I I mean, I'm always committed to my meditation practice, but but there are times where I'm more rigorous about it or at least more excited about it than other times.

最近几天我发现自己对冥想更有热情和目标性，因为我明白了为什么要这么做。

And I found just in the last few days, I was much more excited and more purposeful about meditation because I can see why I want to do it.

同样地，当我与丹尼尔·戈尔曼相处时——我在播客中采访过他三次，他坚持冥想五十年并写了《改变的特质》这本书，讲述冥想如何重塑大脑——也有类似感受。

And likewise, I I think when I spent time with Dan Goleman, who I've interviewed on the podcast maybe three times, who's been meditating for fifty years and and wrote this book, altered traits, about how meditation actually rewires you, rewires your brain.

当我与他共处时，这也让我更加确信，这是一种极其重要的修行。

When I spent time with him, it also confirms for me, like, this is a hugely important practice.

他作为非虚构作家、教练、心理学家以及在所有这些领域都如此成功，同时还是一个真正美好的人，可以看出他的存在感、开放性和快乐都是建立在冥想练习基础上的，这种练习让他能够保持非常开阔的心境。

And to be as successful as he's been as a nonfiction writer and a coach and a psychologist and all of these things, but also as a really wonderful human being, can see that that's built, that his presence and his openness and his joyfulness is built on this practice of meditation that allows him to be very spacious.

所以我认为，在这个充斥着海量输入的世界里，面对各种信息的狂轰滥炸——要应对层出不穷的电子设备，要应付各种屏幕，还要处理那种想要用刷信息、做事情填满生活每个空隙的强迫冲动——我们更需要学会保持思考，更清醒地为生活留白。

So I think for all of us in in this world of just massive inputs, you know, this kind of cascade, this barrage of inputs, trying to figure out what to do with the gadgets, trying to figure out what to do with the screens, trying to figure out what to do about this compulsive desire to fill every space in our lives with checking something, doing something, and instead to be more thoughtful, more mindful about how to keep some of that space open.

我觉得这一点正变得愈发重要。

I think that becomes increasingly important.

而那些对此深思熟虑的人将获得巨大优势。

And the people who are thoughtful about it will have a tremendous advantage.

我觉得很有意思的是，当人们越来越担心AI在许多白领工作中取代人类时，这些人性技能、这些深刻的人性特质反而变得更加重要。

And it's interesting to me that as people worry more and more about things like AI replacing humans in a lot of white collar jobs, these human skills, these deeply human skills and qualities become more important.

因此，像直觉、能够以真正开放和富有同情心的态度倾听他人、真正在场的能力这些人性品质变得尤为重要，因为这些特质我认为很难被复制。

And so things like intuition, things like being able to listen with real openness and real compassion, real presence to people, those human qualities become really more important because those are quite hard to replicate, I think.

这里有个相关问题，我想可以整合进来，来自一位叫贾斯汀·米勒的听众，他是普尔特集团（Pulte Group，拼写为p-u-l-t-e，但我不确定发音是否正确）的流程改进经理。

And there's a there's a related question, which I think I can fold into this from a listener called Justin Miller, who's a process improvement manager for I think it's pronounced the Pulte Group, but I p u l t e, but I may be mispronouncing that.

如有误读，我在此致歉。

If so, I'm sorry.

贾斯汀通过LinkedIn非常慷慨地留言说：

And Justin wrote very generously over LinkedIn.

他表示：‘你在《更富有、更智慧、更快乐》播客中的访谈感觉如此亲密、深刻且充满人性。’

He said, your interviews on the richer, wiser, happier podcast feel so intimate, insightful, and deeply human.

他问：‘当你准备与像莫尼什·帕伯莱或霍华德·马克斯这样复杂而杰出的人物对话时，你的实际准备过程是怎样的？’

When you're preparing to sit down with someone as complex and accomplished as Monish Pabrai or Howard Marx, what does your preparation process actually look like?

你如何平衡研究与直觉，使对话既显得信息丰富又充满真实的活力？

How do you balance research with intuition so the conversation feels both deeply informed and genuinely alive?

首先，非常感谢贾斯汀这些非常友善的评价。

First of all, thanks so much, Justin, for those very kind comments.

我认为这与之前提到的深度临在感密切相关——对我来说，采访准备的一部分（这也适用于任何会议，尤其是与CEO的访谈，当你以分析师身份采访他们时），就是在时间压力下尽可能痴迷且不懈地做准备，但我往往控制不住自己。

I think this very much relates to what I was saying before about deep presence that for me for me, part of the preparation for an interview, and I think this relates to any meeting and certainly to meetings with CEOs where you're interviewing them as an as an analyst say, Part of what I'm doing is I'm obsessively and relentlessly preparing as much as I can given the pressures on my time, but I I tend not to be able to help myself.

我就是会非常投入地为采访做准备。

I just sort of work really intensely on preparing for interviews.

所以我会尽可能广泛地查阅资料。

So I do as broad research as I can.

阅读大量相关文章。

I read as many articles.

回顾之前对他们的采访记录（如果之前采访过的话）。

I go through my old interviews with the person if I've interviewed them before.

收听他们参与过的其他播客节目，并寻找那些可能大多数人不会关注、但却让我感到好奇的点。

I listen to other podcasts that they've done, and I'm looking for I'm looking for things that probably most people aren't looking for that are curious to me.

比如，在我采访比尔·奈格伦之前，我就对他非常感兴趣。

Like like, before I interviewed Bill Nygren, for example, I was very intrigued.

我知道他通常会以相同方式回答某些问题，所以我特别想打破这种模式。

I I knew that he he answers certain questions the same way usually, and so I was really trying to get away from that.

于是我开始寻找谈论他童年或青年经历的方式，试图通过这些线索来了解他的本质。

And so I was looking for for ways of talking about his childhood experiences or his youthful experiences that that would sort of be some kind of key to unlock who he was.

因此需要做深入的准备。

And so there's deep preparation.

需要做非常充分的准备。

There's intense preparation.

但在完成这些准备后，就要学会适当放手。

But then having done that preparation, there's a kind of letting go.

通常我会带着大约8页的问题清单去采访，这些问题是当天早上或前一晚从16页内容精简而来的。

So I'll go into the interview typically with about eight pages of questions that I've whittled down that morning or the night before from about 16 pages.

整个过程就像是先进行广泛收集，然后进行综合提炼，接着再进行更深层次的综合与提炼。

So there's a sort of there's an initial process of of great breadth, then there's a synthesis and a distillation, and then there's a sort of further synthesis and distillation.

在采访过程中，我大概能记住七八页的问题，这样我对采访方向会有些把握。

And I can just about manage to get my head around seven or eight pages of questions during an interview so I sort of have a sense of where I'm going.

但当你把所有问题都整理在Word文档里，并对采访走向有了大致概念后——采访总是有个脉络的。

But then having having got all that on you know, in a Microsoft Word document and having a general sense of where the interview is going, there's always a kind of arc.

采访会有某种主题结构，有时还会带有时间顺序结构。

There's a sort of thematic structure and sometimes some sort of chronological structure as well to the interview.

然后我必须保持清醒，在实际采访中随时准备彻底改变方向。

Then I have to have the presence of mind actually to change direction totally once I'm actually in the interview.

这就回到了如何培养在任何对话中都能深度专注的能力这个问题。

And so this gets back to the question of how are you going to develop this ability to be deeply present in any conversation?

我认为倾听的艺术确实会通过冥想这类练习得到提升，因为这样你脑海中的杂音可能会少一些。

And I think the art of listening, it's definitely it's definitely helped by things like meditation because you're there's maybe there's a little less noise in your head.

同时，深厚的好奇心也能提升倾听能力。

It's also just helped by deep curiosity.

我的意思是，我真的对正在倾听的对象充满兴趣。

I mean, I I'm just really interested in the people I'm listening to.

在采访中，当我完全沉浸于话题时，会有一种流畅感。

And there's a sense of flow when I'm in an interview where I'm so engaged in the topic.

我正全神贯注地倾听。

I'm listening so intensely.

但采访过程很奇妙，因为我大脑的一部分始终在浏览问题清单，思考接下来要问什么。

But it's a strange process being in an interview because there's a part of my brain that's always looking at the questions and thinking about where I'm going next.

与此同时，我又能保持临在状态，倾听他们的回答，预判他们话锋的落点，并随时准备接续任何方向的话题。

And simultaneously, I'm present and listening to them as they're answering and figuring out where they're going to end and how I can follow that in any direction.

所以在他们快说完时，我大概有四五个不同的方向可以选择跟进

So I might have about four or five different directions that I can go in as they approach the end of what they're saying so that I know how to follow-up.

某种程度上，我就像平静地栖息在当下时刻，等待观察'哦，这个是我要跟进的方向'

And so in a way, it's like I'm perched there very calmly in that present moment waiting to see, oh, this is the direction I've gotta go.

哦，不

Oh, no.

我要往这个方向深入

I'm gonna go in this direction.

因此要对自己的直觉和快速转变方向的能力有深刻信任。

And so there's a deep trust in your own intuition and your ability just to just to shift direction.

我确实认为这与分析师和基金经理采访CEO的情况非常相关，因为几个月前我和一位朋友吃午饭时讨论过这个话题，当时我正在准备一场关于采访艺术的演讲。

And I I do think this very much relates to analysts and fund managers interviewing CEOs because I had this conversation with a friend of mine a few months ago over lunch because I was I was preparing to give a speech on the art of interviewing.

所以我向这位朋友请教他采访CEO的见解。

And and so I was asking my friend for insights about how he interviews CEOs.

他谈到采访一位著名CEO时，对方告诉他'小团队里有魔法'。

And he talked about interviewing a famous CEO who said to him, there's magic in small teams.

我朋友说他笔记本上已经列了很多问题要问，结果还是按部就班继续了。

My friend said he had so many questions to ask that were already on his in his notepad that he just moved on.

他说当这么有名气的人告诉你'小团队里有魔法'时，你就该放下所有预设跟着他的思路走。

And he said, when a guy as famous as this tells you there's magic in small teams, he's like, you drop everything and you just go with him in the conversation.

他对自己当时没能保持这种临场应变能力感到非常懊恼，这件事彻底改变了他之后采访CEO的方式。

And he was really frustrated with himself that he didn't have the presence of mind in that moment to do that, and it it changed the way he would approach interviews with CEOs afterwards.

他现在会确保既要充分准备，又愿意随时放下准备跟着对方的思路走。

Like, he he really made sure to be, yes, very well prepared, but also willing to drop his preparation and go with that person in any direction.

我认为在这方面对我很有帮助的一件事，就是倾听那些真正擅长此道的人。

And I think one thing that's been helpful for me on this front is just listening to people who are really, really great at this.

所以我在所有我试图精通的领域都会这么做。

And and so I just do this with with every everything I'm trying to be good at.

这种我书中与莫尼什提到的'克隆'习惯——研究那些真正擅长某事的人并逆向解析他们的方法。

This habit of cloning that I write about in the book with Monish, where you're studying people who are really good at something and you reverse engineer it.

因此我经常痴迷地收听特里·格罗斯的节目，她主持NPR的《新鲜空气》节目已有数十年，是一位出色的采访者。

And so one of the people I listen to pretty obsessively is Terry Gross, who's hosted this show Fresh Air on NPR for many decades and is a wonderful interviewer.

所以我非常定期地收听她的播客。

And so I listen to her podcast very, very regularly.

有些时刻，显然她准备非常充分，而且我猜她有一个制作团队协助她。

And there are moments where I mean, obviously, she's very well prepared, and she has a team that I assume helps her producers and the like.

但她如此镇定、专注且放松——毕竟她从事这行数十年且极为擅长——有时受访者会说些出人意料的话，她就会顺势而为。

But she's so calm and so present and so relaxed having done this for many decades and just being great at it, that sometimes a person will say something surprising in an interview, and she just goes with them.

她总是这样顺势而为。

She always goes with them.

有时候我会发现自己:

And there are moments where I literally find myself saying out loud, nice question, Terry, because I see it sort of like just noticing someone who's a grandmaster in your profession and realizing, ah, she nailed that.

所以这个问题，关于如何在快节奏的世界中培养专注与从容，我认为非常重要。

So this question, I think, of of how you develop presence and spaciousness in a really speedy world is an important one.

对我真正有帮助的其实是索克大师的教导，我曾和丹·戈尔曼一起在播客中采访过他。

And one of the things that's been helpful to me actually are the teachings of Sok who I had on the podcast with Dan Gollman.

他是一位伟大的藏传佛教冥想大师，他们合著了一本名为《我们为何冥想》的书，虽然书名并不出彩。

He's a great Tibetan Buddhist meditation master, and they wrote a book together called Why We Meditate, which isn't the best title.

这个书名并不能很好地反映这本书的内容，它其实是本非常棒的书。

It doesn't really reflect the book that much, which is a very good book.

但我认为索克尼非常擅长教会人们如何安定身体，从而降低能量，让你能够脚踏实地、保持专注。

But I think, Sokhani is extremely good at figuring out how to settle the body so that you bring your energy down so that you're grounded and so you can be present.

比如有各种不同的呼吸方式，你可以通过特定的呼吸让能量停留在肚脐下方之类的技巧。

And so there are these different types of breathing, for example, like, where you can you can breathe so that the energy is kind of below your belly button, things like that.

我也不知道。

And I don't know.

这些东西听起来可能有点玄乎，甚至可能让人觉得我走火入魔了，但前几天阿诺德·范登伯格给我发了一份很长的文档，全是关于呼吸的——他收集了大量关于如何呼吸的信息资料。

This this stuff can sound pretty satiric, and it might sound like I'm going off to the deep end, but Arnold Van den Berg sent me a very long document a few days ago all about breathing that he he's assembled an enormous amount of information on how to breathe.

因此，通过呼吸练习、冥想、太极、瑜伽等各种技巧，让你在这个浮躁不安、难以专注的时刻保持沉稳、集中和开放——这种能力极其宝贵，而且我相信会越来越有价值。

And so this ability through different techniques like breathing exercises, meditation, tai chi, yoga, whatever it might be, that enable you to be grounded, centered, and open at a time that's anything but grounded and anything but centered, anything but focused, that that is hugely, hugely valuable, and I believe will become increasingly valuable.

下一个问题来自听众泰勒，出于尊重我就不透露他的姓氏了。

The next question comes from a listener named Tyler, whose second name I'll withhold just to add respect.

我不知道他是否愿意我公开他的身份。

I don't know whether he wants me to share his identity or not.

他写道：'嗨，威廉。

And he writes, hi, William.

我是你的书《更富有、更智慧、更幸福》和播客的忠实粉丝。

I'm a huge fan of your book, Richer, Wiser, Happier, and your podcast.

你的提问、嘉宾和对生活的见解都让我受益匪浅。

Your questions, guests, and views on life have really influenced me for the better.

我尽力在风暴中保持冥想和平静，所以感谢你做的一切。'

I try my best to meditate and stay calm through the storm, so thank you for everything you do.

我有个问题想请教你。

I have one question for you.

我知道你曾谈及这个话题，但我想知道你是否能给我或面临类似处境的人一些建议。

I know you've spoken about this, but I wonder if you have any advice for me or anyone else who might be going through something similar.

我是一名视频剪辑师，目前在洛杉矶从事无剧本电视节目制作。

I'm a video editor who currently works in unscripted TV in Los Angeles.

你可能有所不知，好莱坞影视产业正在崩塌，许多人已经失业数月甚至数年。

You may or may not know, but the Hollywood industry is crumbling, and many people have been out of work for months or even years.

大家都说我工作做得不错，但我发现找工作越来越难了。

People say I'm good at the job, but I'm finding it harder and harder to find work.

雪上加霜的是，我刚刚当上爸爸。

On top of that, I'm a new dad.

我和妻子迎来了我们的第一个孩子。

My wife and I had our first child.

如果你想看看她，我很乐意给你发张照片。

If you want to see her, I would gladly send you a pic.

因此我开始感到极度焦虑、担忧，甚至可能害怕在行业变革期间如何养家糊口。

So I'm starting to get extremely anxious, worried, and possibly scared about providing for my family during industry change.

我知道你在《时代》杂志失业、出版业衰退且从未真正复苏时也经历过类似困境，但你成功调整并写出了最棒的作品。

I know you went through something similar when you lost your job at Time Magazine and publishing went down and never really recovered, but you adjusted and were able to write some of your best work.

所以我有三个问题想请教你。

So I have three questions for you.

第一，你当时是否和我现在有相似的情绪？

One, did you have similar emotions to me that I'm having right now?

你是如何控制这些情绪的？

What did you do to keep your emotions in check?

第二，当你所处的行业衰退或变革时，你会建议坚持还是转型？

Two, would you suggest perseverance or pivoting when the industry you work in declines or changes?

我热爱我的工作。

I love the work I do.

这是我唯一从事过的工作。

It's the only work I've done.

但在某些方面，由于组建了新家庭，我也能看到自己从事完全不同工作的可能性。

But in some ways, because of the new family, I could see myself doing something else too that's completely different.

第三，当你为《时代》杂志工作时，你的家人对这种变化有何反应？

Three, how did your family react to the change when you were working for time?

他们也很担心吗？

Were they worried as well?

请告诉我。

Please let me know.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这是个很棒的问题。

This is a wonderful question.

几周前泰勒也问过我这个问题，我确实思考了很多，觉得光是这个问题就值得做一期播客，因为它太重要了。

And I I got this question a couple of weeks ago from Tyler, and and I I started thinking about it really a lot and thought this alone was a reason to do this podcast episode because it's such important questions.

回到2008年雷曼兄弟倒闭时，新闻界同时遭受重创，部分原因是互联网兴起，部分是因为广告业务转向了线上。

And so, yeah, back in 2008, the 2008 when Lehman Brothers went under, the journalism world was getting pummeled at the same time, partly because of the Internet, partly because advertising had fallen off as business moved towards the Internet.

而且，你知道，我工作的时代公司还与美国在线进行了这场灾难性的合并，摧毁了巨大的价值。

And, you know, Time Inc, where I worked, had also done this catastrophic merger with AOL that had destroyed enormous amounts of value.

由于各种原因，加上我负责编辑《时代》杂志欧洲、中东和非洲版，薪资极高。

And so for various reasons and because I was extremely expensive because I was editing the the European, Middle East, and African edition of Time.

所以当公司陷入困境时，出于种种原因，我被解雇了。

So for various reasons, as the company was sort of in trouble, I got laid off.

这对我打击很大，因为我觉得自己工作非常出色，而且付出了难以置信的努力。

And it was it was very shocking for me because I felt like I was very good at my job, and I had worked ridiculously hard.

我确实对工作非常痴迷，我热爱这份工作——编辑、与才华横溢的作家、摄影师和设计师合作，我们拥有这样一支不可思议的团队，我全身心投入其中。

And I I was really obsessed with the work, and I kinda I kinda loved the work, the editing, working with amazing writers and amazing photographers and designers, and we had this incredible team, and I was deeply committed to it.

从某些方面来说，这是一份令人极度满足且有趣的工作。

And it was, in some ways, you know, just a hugely satisfying, interesting job.

你会去采访总统和总理，几乎能让任何人为你撰稿。

You would go off and you'd interview presidents and prime ministers, and you could get almost anyone to write for you.

那是一段非常美妙的时光。

It was it was an amazing time.

于是在2008年9月、10月左右金融危机最严重时被解雇，这份工作曾是我身份认同的重要部分。

And so then when I got laid off right in the middle of the financial crisis, probably around September, October 2008, it was a huge part of my identity.

但同时也充满巨大不确定性——我住在伦敦贝尔格莱维亚区的漂亮房子里，这房子主要由时代公司支付，他们还送我的孩子上私立学校。

But But there was also a great deal of uncertainty because I was living in a beautiful home in Belgravia in London that was largely paid for by time, and they sent my kids to private school.

我在海外生活了很久，之前在香港待了五年，负责过一段时间《时代》亚洲版编辑工作，更早之前是副主编。

And I'd been living abroad for quite a long time because previously, I'd been in Hong Kong for five years editing the Asian edition of Time for for a while and before that being the deputy editor.

所以我已多年没在美国生活，根本不知道该住在哪里。

So I hadn't been in America for many years, and so I didn't really know where I should live.

我的孩子还在上学，我完全不知道该怎么办。

I had young kids who were in school, and I didn't really know what to do.

我不想因为强行把他们从昂贵的私立学校拽出来而毁掉他们的生活。

And I didn't wanna mess up their lives by yanking them out of their expensive private schools and stuff.

当时整个行业都在崩塌，而我却非常擅长这个领域。

And so my industry was sort of collapsing, and I I was really good at it.

就像在说：等等，我擅长的事情现在该怎么办？

And it was like, but wait, the thing I'm good at, what what am I supposed to do?

这已经不需要了，或者说我不被需要了，因为我太贵了。

It's just not needed or I'm not needed because I'm too expensive.

我当时还年轻，至少回想起来感觉那时很年轻。

And I was young, or at least it feels like I was young in retrospect.

我想我当时40岁。

I think I was 40.

所以现在我56岁。

So now I'm 56.

是的，那确实非常痛苦。

So, yeah, so it was very painful.

所以泰勒，我想说的第一件事就是，我确实能体会你的痛苦。

So the first thing I would say, Tyler, is, yeah, I I feel your pain.

我的意思是，那段时期确实非常艰难。

I mean, it was it was very difficult.

我还记得当时老板打电话通知我被解雇的情景。

And I remember calling home my boss at the time called to tell me that I was being laid off.

我打电话回家时，我儿子亨利在伦敦家中的客厅里直接吐得到处都是。

And I I called home, and my son Henry literally projectile vomited in the living room of our home in London.

所以当时情况非常紧张。

And so it was very intense.

而且你知道，我们是个关系非常亲密的家庭，无话不谈。

And, you know, we were a very close family, and we talked about everything.

我们从不隐瞒任何事情。

We didn't hide stuff.

所以那种感觉很难受，某种程度上觉得我的失误——我的失败可能会对家庭造成巨大影响。

And so it was painful to sort of feel that, you know, my screw up in some way, you know, my failure was gonna have this terrific effect potentially on my family.

所以我认为你面对的部分问题就是——这真是我的过错吗？

And so I think part of what you deal with and, you know, was it my screw up?

我的意思是，我也不确定。

I mean, I I don't know.

是啊。

Yeah.

我本可以更巴结上司，更懂些职场政治。

Definitely could have sucked up more to bosses and, like, and been more political.

我向来不擅长这些事。

I was never very good at that stuff.

但我觉得自己只是被更大的浪潮卷走了，就像现在很多人因AI和其他技术变革冲击职场一样。

But I don't think I you know, I I think I just got swept up in a bigger wave as I think is happening now with a lot of people with AI and various other technological changes that are hitting the workplace.

所以首先，那种羞耻感、挫败感、尴尬和屈辱感都是完全可以理解的。

And so I think the first thing is that sense of shame and that sense of failure and that sense of embarrassment and sort of humiliation, that's really understandable.

首先，泰勒，我真的很抱歉你和其他人正在经历这些。

And first of all, I'm I'm really sorry, Tyler, that you're going through this and other people are going through it.

这很痛苦。

It's painful.

真的非常痛苦。

It's really painful.

我认为部分问题在于我们的身份与工作绑定太深，尤其当你充满干劲、能力出众又非常努力时。

I think part of the issue is that our identities are so wrapped up in our work, especially if you're driven and you're good at what you do and you work really hard.

很难不把自我认同与工作绑定在一起。

It's very difficult not to identify yourself with the job.

我记得做过一期相关的播客节目。

And so I remember doing an episode of the podcast.

我试着回忆一下。

I I try to remember.

对。

Yeah.

是和布拉德·斯塔尔伯格一起做的，他写了《变革大师》这本书。

It was with Brad Stahlberg who wrote this book, Master of Change.

这是本有趣的书，我们当时进行了很有启发的讨论。

It's an interesting book, and and we had a very interesting discussion.

布拉德的部分观点是，你需要分散你的身份认同感。

Part of what Brad says is that you need to diversify your sense of identity.

某种程度上我们需要建立多重身份认同。

So we kinda need multiple identities in a way.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像你是个父亲。

It's like you're a father.

你是个丈夫。

You're a you're a husband.

你知道的，你还有精神生活。

You're you know, you have your spiritual life.

你有你的社交生活。

You have your social life.

你有你的工作。

You have your work.

你有慈善事业，无论是什么，你的运动，你的兴趣爱好。

You have philanthropy, whatever it is, your your sports, your interest.

所以我认为对我来说困难的部分在于，我曾如此固守于单一身份。

And so I think part of what was difficult for me was I was so locked into one identity.

所以我认为布拉德说得对，仅仅把自己看作工作角色是非常局限的。

So I I think I think Brad is right that it's very helpful to not just see yourself as as your job.

他会谈到房子里需要存在并精心布置的不同房间。

He would talk about, you know, different rooms in the house that need to need to exist and be decorated as well.

所以我认为这也是其中一部分原因。

So I think that's that's part of it.

部分原因在于保持自我悲悯，正视自己正在经历这些事实并坦然接受。

Part of it is having self compassion and looking at the fact that you go through this and being like, yeah.

要知道，我们都会经历苦难，这历来如此。

You know, we suffer, and this was always the case.

创造性破坏始终存在，各个行业总会经历这类变革。

This there's always been creative destruction, and industries have always gone through this sort of change.

我推荐克里斯汀·内夫博士与人合著的《自我悲悯练习手册》，她是德州大学的研究员。

So I you know, there's a very good book called the self compassion workbook that Kristin Neff, a researcher at University of Texas, co wrote.

据我理解，自我悲悯的部分意义在于认识到他人也在经历同样困境。

And part of self compassion, as I understand it, is recognizing that other people go through the same thing.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以其中一部分是要有自我觉察，看清你正在经历什么，以及它如何在身体和其他方面表现出来。

So part of it is the self awareness to see what you're going through and to see how it expresses itself in the body and other ways.

仅仅是认识到这一点，其中就包括自我关怀之类的事情，比如她会谈到抚摸你的手臂、抚摸你的脸这类动作，就像在安慰自己。

And just recognizing it, part of it is things like, you know, self care, like she would talk about sort of, you know, stroking your arms, stroking your face, you know, things like that, like comforting yourself.

因此既要承认自己的痛苦，也要看到他人的痛苦并意识到：是的，这就是人类的处境。

And so sort of recognizing or acknowledging your suffering, but also looking at other people's suffering and being like, yeah, this is the human condition.

这种情况会发生。

This happens.

其他人也会遇到这种事。

It happens to other people.

我认为我部分感到屈辱的原因是，看到那些我认为工作能力未必比我强的人保住了工作且过得不错，这似乎有些不公平。

And I think part of my sense of humiliation was that it seemed kind of unfair that I would see other people who I didn't think were necessarily as good at their jobs had kept their jobs and were doing fine.

而我明明工作做得这么好，却快要被淹没了。

And here was I who'd who'd done my job so well, and I was kinda drowning.