比特币如何改变世界 | 埃里克·赫斯曼、菲利普·沃尔顿、埃里克·亚克斯与马克·卡茂

你知道，在Gridless，我们最初专注于寻找闲置能源，并通过比特币挖矿帮助其货币化。

You know, so so at Gridless, we we started out by focusing on finding stranded energy and helping to monetize it with Bitcoin mining.

我们很快意识到非洲真正的需求是开发新能源项目。

We very quickly realized that the real need in Africa is developing new energy projects.

因此我们主要集中精力寻找水电资源，出于单位经济效益的考虑，一直在推进水电项目。

And so we've kind of been focused on predominantly finding hydro and we've been you know, pursuing hydro simply because of the unit economics.

几个月前，我和埃里克与纳米比亚的一些人通了电话，他们告诉我们太阳能和储能的成本已大幅下降，几乎达到了与水电相当的单位经济性。

So it's a couple months ago, you know, Eric and I got on a call with some folks down in Namibia and basically they enlightened us that the cost of solar and storage has come down so much that we're approaching the same unit economics of hydro.

对于不这样看待比特币挖矿的人来说，它本质上就是一种能源套利。

And, you know, for those that don't think of Bitcoin mining like this, it's it's just energy, like it's an energy arbitrage.

比特币挖矿支付x，只要y远低于x，你就能获得毛利并成功为这种能源提供资金。

So Bitcoin mining pays x, as long as y is substantially less than x, then you make gross margin and you can, you know, successfully fund this energy.

于是我们开始建模分析：我们能否实现太阳能？

And so, you know, we started down this road of like looking at modeling out, can we do solar?

比特币挖矿确实需要24/7不间断运行，所以显然需要储能系统。

With Bitcoin mining, we really need them to run 20 fourseven, so obviously storage is required.

就在几周前，埃里克带着家人去这个地区游玩，偶然发现了这个小村庄，我们觉得这简直太完美了。

And then a few weeks ago, Eric took his family just on kind of a fun trip up to this part of the country and ended up finding this little village and so we're like, this is perfect.

我的意思是，这是个永远不会有人考虑通电的村庄，而我们可以去那里建造一座相当规模的发电厂。

I mean, this is a village nobody will ever, ever, ever think about taking electricity to and we can go there, build a pretty substantial energy plant.

这将确保他们在未来三四十年里拥有所需的充足电力。

It will make sure that they have as much electricity as they want for, you know, the next three or four decades.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而通过比特币挖矿，我们还能实现盈利。

And we can do that profitably because of Bitcoin mining.

所以这真是个很棒的故事。

So it's just a great story.

我认为这是非常关键的一点。

So that's a really important thing I think.

埃里克，我们之前在播客里讨论过，这可不是什么慈善项目。

And we've talked about this in the podcast before, Eric, but this isn't like a philanthropic play.

确实，这对当地社区有巨大好处，但你们这么做是因为它利润丰厚。

Like, there's massive benefits to the local community, but you're doing this because it's highly profitable.

嗯。

Yeah.

我是说，我们做的每件事。

I mean, nothing we do.

就像，我觉得有些人看到Gridless就以为我们是非营利组织或慈善机构。

Like, I think some people look at Gridless and they think that we're a nonprofit or a charity.

我们是一家获得风投注资的营利性公司。

We are a for profit VC backed company.

我们的首要目标就是盈利性地开采比特币。

We we are our first goal is to mine Bitcoin profitably.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们通过在非洲边缘地区部署能源设施并分散比特币网络来实现这一目标。

And we do that by pushing energy to the edges in Africa and decentralizing the Bitcoin network.

这就是我们，这就是Gridless的全部使命。

That's our that's the whole mission of of Gridless.

所以我们绝对不会考虑一个不赚钱的站点。

So we would never look at a site if we weren't gonna make money.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们正在和一位纳米比亚的大型太阳能项目负责人讨论这个想法，他告诉了我们新的价格变动情况。

So this idea we were talking to this actually Namibian, a very large scale Namibian solar guy who told us about the new pricing changes.

我们通过不同的中国制造商、了解情况的欧洲同行反复验证了三次，价格确实下降了。

We, like, triple verified this with different Chinese manufacturers, European guys who knew the and sure enough, the prices have dropped.

所以在萨鲁地区，我们觉得虽然这个社区初始需求可能只有20到50千瓦，但我们可以直接部署一兆瓦的容量。

And so in Saru, we're like, okay, this community might start with like a demand of maybe 20 to 50 kilowatts, But we can drop a megawatt in.

对吧？

Right?

现在，一兆瓦的太阳能只能提供约250千瓦的持续能源。

Now, megawatt of solar only gives you about 250 kilowatts of always on energy.

因为如果你有一兆瓦的太阳能，其中四分之三需要在白天为电池充电。

Because if you have a megawatt of solar, you know, three quarters of it has to fill the batteries during the day.

所以你白天只能用其中的四分之一来挖矿，然后整晚都可以运行。

And so you can only use a quarter of it to mine during the day and then all night you can run it.

好的。

Okay.

所以基本上是一比四的比例。

So it's a one to four ratio, basically.

但数字上是可行的。

And but the numbers work.

这些数字最终确实是可行的。

The numbers actually work finally.

经济上也是可行的。

The economics work.

不过有趣的是，这意味着我们Gridless公司所做的正是Runner River水电的专长。

What's interesting about that though, is it means like what we were doing Gridless is known for Runner River hydro.

这基本上是我们的主要业务。

That's what we're mostly do.

我们有几个地热项目和一个生物质项目，但真正擅长的是Runner River水电。

We have a couple of geo we have a geothermal, we have a biomass, but really Runner River hydro is what we're good at.

随着我们开始向整个大陆扩展业务，预计未来一两年将有10到20兆瓦的产能上线。

And as we start expanding across the the continent, we're saying, hey, we're gonna have, you know, about maybe 10 to 20 megawatts that come online over the next year or two.

这很棒。

That's great.

我们现在能把这个数字翻倍吗？

Can we double that now?

因为太阳能项目的推进速度快得多。

Because solar is a lot faster.

我们可以在三到六个月内建成一个太阳能站点。

We can put up a solar site in three to six months.

而水电项目，你得考虑12到18个月的时间。

Whereas with hydro, you're you're looking at, you know, 12 to eighteen.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这里有些非常有趣的地方。

So there's there's something really interesting here.

就像数字计算显示，比特币挖矿的经济效益是可行的。

And it's like the numbers work, the economics work for the Bitcoin mining.

即使萨鲁地区没人愿意购买一度电——这当然不是我们希望的。

Even if nobody were to buy a single kilowatt of power in Saru, which we wouldn't like.

对吧？

Right?

但即便没人购买，我们依然能够盈利。

But even if nobody did, we would still be profitable.

如果他们购买的话，我们就能赚得更多。

Now, if they buy, we make more money.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这是一种激励，就像激励机制是一致的，嗯。

So it's incentive like like the incentives are aligned Mhmm.

对所有人来说都能从中获益。

For everybody to to come out looking good on this.

而且如果他们支付的价格高于比特币挖矿，他们的价格仍然会比我们在内罗毕支付的更低。

And if they pay more than Bitcoin mining, right, their price is still gonna be the gonna be less than what we pay in Nairobi.

所以他们实际上将拥有全国最便宜的能源之一。

So they will actually have some of the cheapest energy in the whole country.

嗯，这是其中

Well, this is one

一件让我震惊的事情，因为那个距离萨鲁约一小时车程的镇子叫什么来着？

of the things that shocked me because what's the town called that was about an hour away from Saru?

是杜卡纳。

So, Dukana.

杜卡纳。

Dukana.

那里他们建了一个太阳能站点。

And so there, they have a solar site set up.

那是非政府组织建的吗？

Was that from an NGO?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

So yes.

然后他们建立了这个，但镇上出现了一些争议。

And then they set that up, and then there was some controversy in the town.

政治因素介入其中。

Politics got involved.

哇。

Woah.

现在他们每千瓦时要支付72美分。

And now they're paying 72¢ a kilowatt hour.

是的。

Yes.

75美分。

75¢.

70美分，所以这大概是...我不确定，是美国普通家庭电费的三到四倍？

70 so that's like, I don't know, four times as three times as much as a normal US household?

嗯，在内罗毕，我们每千瓦时支付25美分。

Well, and in in in Nairobi, we pay 25¢ a kilowatt.

太疯狂了。

Crazy.

所以这是内罗毕居民电费的三倍

So it's it's three times as much as as people in Nairobi

是啊。

Yeah.

在国家电网上的付费。

Pay on the on the national grid.

但发生这种情况的原因是这家非政府组织建立了系统，然后你知道，他们并没有真正很好地监控和管理他们的设施。

And but the reason that happened is this NGO set it up, and then, you know, they they weren't they weren't really monitoring and managing their stuff very well.

人们开始私接线路偷电。

People started tapping the line and stealing power.

所以他们把一切都关停了。

So they turned everything off.

社区民众，你知道，对此变得有点不满。

The the the community came, you know, be became a little upset about that.

那些正常缴费的用户确实如此。

The paying customers did.

他们说，好吧，阻止这些人偷电。

And they said, well, stop these guys from stealing.

他们并没有阻止偷电行为。

They didn't stop them from stealing.

所以最终，他们的解决方案就是：好吧，我们会重新供电，但要把价格从50涨到75。

So eventually, what they ended up doing is just saying, fine, we're gonna turn it back on, but we're now raising the price from 50 to 75.

是啊。

Yeah.

太疯狂了。

Crazy.

而且这些小镇根本没有那么多闲钱来支付这么高昂的电费。

And like, these towns don't have tons of spare capital to be spending that much money on electricity.

所以我猜结果就是人们会大幅减少用电量。

So I assume what happens is just people will use far less of it.

这样一来实际受益显然就大打折扣了

And then the benefit is obviously way smaller

大幅缩水。

Way less.

我是说，你们面对的是可支配收入最低的人群。

I mean, so you're you're you're dealing with the people with the with the least amount of disposable income Mhmm.

在这个国家，他们的能源成本是最高的。

In the country, and they have the highest cost of energy.

太疯狂了。

Crazy.

这太荒谬了。

It's ridiculous.

这完全本末倒置了。

It's it's it's upside down.

所以他们在德卡纳要支付每千瓦时75美分。

And so they're paying 75¢ a kilowatt hour in Deccana.

你能给萨鲁当地居民提供什么价格？

What will you be able to offer it to the local people in Saru?

所以我们产地的批发价大概是12美分左右。

So the wholesale price coming out of where we are would be at something like 12¢.

这是批发价。

Now that's wholesale.

那么抱歉。

So then sorry.

我们这边有点额外的噪音。

We had a little bit extra noise around here.

假设我们以12美分的批发价供给社区合作社或当地小型微电网分销商。

So let's say we wholesale it to 12¢ to the either the community co op or the local little mini grid distributor.

对吧？

Right?

他可能会在此基础上再加收5到6美分。

He might charge another 5 or 6¢ on top of that.

所以我们总共算它18美分吧。

So let's call it let's call it 18¢ total.

然后他就能赚点小利润。

And then he makes a little profit.

所以他再加2美分。

So he adds another 2¢.

所以2020年，即便你们收费20美分或者当地合作社收费20美分，仍然更便宜。

So 2020 even if you were to charge 20¢ or the local co op were to do 20¢, it's still cheaper.

是啊。

Yeah.

明显更便宜。

Significantly cheaper.

实际上比内罗毕便宜20%。

It's actually 20% cheaper than Nairobi.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

而且学校里有个有趣的现象，有人在屋顶装了太阳能板。

And like one of the interesting things was in the school, someone had put a solar panel on the roof.

我记得村里唯一另外看到使用太阳能的地方就是药房。

And I think the only other place that I saw with solar was the pharmacy in the village.

没错。

Yeah.

但学校屋顶上的太阳能板远远不够用。

And but the solar on the roof of the school is nowhere near enough.

他们说实际上只能供两间教室照明，而他们有八间左右的教室。

They said it can only actually light two of the classrooms and they had eight or something.

还有件有趣的事是，他们不只把它用于照明。

And the interesting thing as well is they're not just using it for that.

白天所有人都去那里给手机和移动电源充电，没错。

Everyone's going there during the day and charging, like, their phones and external batteries and Yes.

而药店老板，或者说药剂师，他说甚至没法让冰箱整晚运行。

And then in the chemist, he said that or the pharmacist, he's he said that it doesn't even run the fridge all night.

所以，它们的供电能力远远不足。

So, like, they are vastly underpowered.

有了它将会带来巨大的改变，可以

They have it it will make an incredible difference that can

使用它。

use it.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果没有药品冷藏设备，晚上生孩子就只能靠手机闪光灯照明。

If you have no cold storage for medicine, you if you're having a baby at night, you're doing it under the light of a of your phone flashlight.

对吧？

Right?

如果想晚上学习，能去哪里？

If you wanna study at night, where do you go?

对吧？

Right?

所以没有能源的情况下，所有人的生活都更艰难。

So everybody everything is worse when you don't have energy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

就是这样。

That's it.

事实上，当我们采访社区了解通电对他们意味着什么时，其中一位受访者就是学校的校长。

In fact, when we were interviewing the community to find out what having access to energy would mean to them, one of the people we spoke with is the headmaster of the school.

每到考试季，他不得不把打印机绑在自行车后座，一路骑到卡纳去打印试卷。

And when it's exam time, he literally has to carry his printer on the back of a bike all the way to the Kana to print the exams.

是啊，那简直...你没法

Yeah, that was You can't

太疯狂了。

insane.

在学校打印试卷。

Print the exams at the school.

他说，没错，如果你们能给我们通电，那将极大解决这个问题。

And he's like, yeah, if you brought us energy, that would actually help because of that.

就连疫苗运输也是。

Even the vaccines.

对于幼儿来说，有些疫苗需要冷藏，他们有一个小型太阳能冰箱和有限的储存容量。

So for young children, some vaccines require refrigeration and they have a small solar fridge and the capacity that they have.

你听到他们都说，他们买的是非常廉价的中国电池，但对他们来说超级贵，要3.2美元。

And you heard all of them say, they get very cheap Chinese batteries, which are super expensive, $3.20.

大概每年左右他们就得更换这些电池。

And every year or so they have to replace them.

所以对他们来说，如果能用可靠的电源解决这笔开支，那将是改变游戏规则的事情。

And so for them, they're like, if you could take that cost out of our hands with a reliable source of power, that would be a game changer.

有个家伙告诉我，他经营着一家卖酒的生意，是个非常具有创业精神的人。

There's a guy who was telling me, I like, he's got the business where people are having alcohol and he's super entrepreneur.

他说，其实我根本不喜欢卖酒。

He was like, listen, I actually don't even like selling alcohol.

我真正的热情是焊接。

My main passion is welding.

而且在这种地形上，所有自行车都被颠簸得破旧不堪。

And there are all these bikes that are beaten up on this terrain.

你能想象如果我开一家修理自行车的店，焊接车架，那才是我真正的热情所在。

Can you imagine if I set up a shop to repair the bikes, welding the frames, that's actually my passion.

所以如果你能立即提供电力支持，那将会非常有帮助。

And so it's like, if you immediately come over with power, that would be super helpful.

但对我来说，我们面临一些严重的

But I think for me, the We've got some serious

背景噪音干扰。

background noise going on.

是的。

Yeah.

没错，你说得对。

So yeah, you're right.

比如在医疗、教育甚至营养方面都有很多途径。

Like there are so many ways for health, for education, for nutrition even.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为有人说他们只按战略需要宰杀山羊。

Because there's somebody who said they only slaughter a goat strategically.

是啊，因为他们没有冰箱来

Yeah, because they don't have a fridge to

保存食物。

keep food.

没错，他们没有山羊，也没有冰箱，所以由于这些限制，他们甚至无法提供适当的营养。

Yes, they don't have a goat, they don't have a fridge to, so they actually don't even provide the right nutrition because of some of these constraints.

但另一个方面是，当你看到这些家用太阳能系统，这些屋顶上的小小装置，它们提供的只是维持基本功能的电力，远非充沛的电力。

But so so another aspect that, you know, when you look at like these solar home systems, these like rooftop tiny little, it's like the the bare minimum electricity to provide function, but it's not abundant power.

我认为我们与Gridless讨论的区别在于，进入社区后不是只给他们勉强维生的电力

And and I think the difference in what we're talking about with gridless is going into that community and not giving them just enough to survive

是啊。

Yeah.

而是提供充足的电力，让焊工能真正开展业务，因为他有稳定电力来运行焊机，能修理自行车。我认为这正是某些援助项目面临的挑战之一。

But going in and and making enough electricity available that the welder can actually set up a business because he has reliable power that he can run his welding machine, he can fix bicycles and I think that's one of the challenges in some of the efforts.

埃里克，提醒我一下，是把家用太阳能系统算作能源的那个组织吗？

Eric, remind me, is the organization that counts like solar home systems towards the the energy?

哦，那是'电力非洲'。

Oh, that was Power Africa.

对。

Yeah.

所以，你知道，他们的数字很糟糕。

So, you know, their numbers sucked.

就像，他们所有的努力——那些为非洲带来电气化的努力——都失败了。

Like, they're not they're like, all of the effort that's gone into bringing electrification to Africa has failed.

我当时，你知道，为了让数据好看些，他们改变了定义标准。

I was, you know and and so in order to make their numbers look better, they changed the definition.

你知道，这不是真正的能源获取。

You know, it's not it's not real energy access.

就像是，'附近有块太阳能板，所以我们就把它算作能源获取'。

It's like, but, you know, there's a solar panel nearby, so we're gonna count that as being as being energy access.

我认为这正是我们必须彻底改变叙事的地方。

And I think this is where we have to completely change the narrative.

你看，像萨鲁这样的社区——一个名不见经传、地图上都找不到的地方——除了当地居民和周边少数人，恐怕全世界直到此刻才第一次听说它。

You know, there's no reason that a community like Saru, which is unheard of, not on the map, like, there there probably are other than the people in Saru and maybe few people around there, probably nobody else in the world has ever heard of it until right now.

可以说，萨鲁正在首次向世界宣告它的存在。

Like, you know, Saru is being announced to the world for the first time.

但为什么他们就不配拥有充沛能源——尤其是廉价充沛能源——所能带来的经济潜力呢？

But why why do they not deserve to have the economic potential that abundant energy, abundant cheap energy would bring?

让我们拭目以待他们会如何利用这种能源。

And and let's see what they do with it.

确实。

Yeah.

他们当然配得上。

Of course, they do.

但这里有趣的是，我们之前讨论时谈到过，他们拥有充沛能源这件事背后的哲学意义。

But the interesting thing here, when we were talking about this a little bit, is like the philosophical implications of of them having, like, abundant energy.

这才是真正的非洲。

Like, that's real Africa.

非洲就是以这种方式存在了不知多久。

That's how Africa's existed for how how however however long.

但如果他们获得充足能源，这会如何改变社区？

But if they get abundant energy, like, how does that change the community?

那里会发生什么？

What happens there?

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

关于这点，因为这是我曾有的疑问之一。

And on that, like because that that was one of the questions I had.

就像，假设我们现在让其中一个社区拥有完全充足的能源。

It's like, let's assume we have just like a complete abundance of energy in one of these communities now.

你知道，他们将能够使用冷藏设备。

You know, they're able to have refrigeration.

要知道，他们能够创造这些基本生活必需品。

You know, they're able to create these basic necessities.

正因如此，他们能够享受更多娱乐活动。

They're able to have more entertainment because of it.

你知道，所有这些不同的事情。

You know, all these different things.

那么他们现在受限于什么？

What are they constrained by then?

比如，接下来的后续会是什么？

Like, what's the next follow on?

因为我注意到的一个文化现象是，人们拥有充足的时间。

Because it seems like like one of the things I was noticing culturally is that people have time.

在这些社区中，时间并非稀缺资源。

That's not a scarce resource in these communities.

他们有充足时间做事，我认为这正是因为人们对时间观念相对宽松所致。

They have time to do things, and and I think that's because people are less less less punctual because of that.

那么问题来了，好吧。

And and the question is is okay.

既然他们现在有足够的能源来更高效地利用时间，那么实现这一目标的主要限制因素会是什么？

Well, now that if they have enough energy to where they can actually be leveraging their time more efficiently, then what are what are gonna be the constraints in terms of being able to do that?

比如说，以那个想成为焊工的人为例，你知道他的焊接材料主要会从哪里来？

Like, so if we take the guy who wanted to be a welder, for example, you know, where where's a lot of the inputs for his welding gonna come from?

而且我很好奇，如果他们拥有充足能源，下一步他们需要什么？

And and, like, I was curious as to how, like, what would be the next step that they would need if they had abundant energy?

这又能让他们做到什么程度——不是工业化，你懂我的意思，而是让社区运营方式达到某种更高层次的成熟度。

And then what would that allow them to do to really like, you know, not industrialize, but you know what I mean, have some sort of greater degree of sophistication around how they're running their communities.

不过我觉得某种程度上我们已经见过这种情况了。

But I mean, we we we've actually seen this to a certain degree.

丹尼见过

Danny's seen

这种情况

it

在邦多山的梅兰吉。

in Bondo on Mount Melange.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，那是一个在社会经济地位上类似的社区，现在已经通电十年了。

You know, like that's that is a similar kind of socio and economically positioned community that has now had electrification for, you know, a decade.

我不知道你怎么想，但和那里的人互动时，确实有很多相似之处。

And I don't know about you, but I mean, just like interacting with the people, there is a lot of similarities.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

你知道，甚至和长辈们交流时也是如此。

You know, and even interacting with the elders.

在马拉维梅兰吉山上的长辈们和萨鲁山上的长辈们交谈时，也有很多相似之处。

There's a lot of similarities in talking to the elders that are on Mount Mulanje in Malawi and the guys that are sitting up in Saru.

所以我不认为我们会从他们那里夺走什么。

So I don't think we're going to like take away something from them.

实际上我认为我们会激励他们继续过他们想要的生活方式，同时拥有保持食物新鲜和储存疫苗的能力。

I actually think we're going to catalyze them to to, you know, con continue to live the lifestyle that they want to live, but have that ability to keep food fresh, keep vaccines.

但我也认为你没有夺走任何东西。

But I don't think you're taking away anything either.

这只是一个有趣的动态，他们基本上是从500年前的生活方式直接被传送到了现代。

It's just it's an interesting dynamic where they're essentially being teleported from the same way they'd have lived, you know, 500 years ago, basically, to the modern Probably

5000年前。

5,000 years ago.

是啊。

Yeah.

这太疯狂了。

So it's wild.

就像，那简直是一夜之间改变了他们社会的运作方式，这会非常有趣。

Like, that that is like an overnight shift in how their society works, how they it's it's it's gonna be really interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

他们可以自己决定这件事。

And they get to determine that for themselves.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

这就是实验的意义，因为有时实验本身也是如此。

And that's the experiment because sometimes that's the experiment as well.

这是为他们设计的，因为不同的人会选择不同的优先事项，我们不会规定他们该做什么。

It's for the for them because different people pick different priorities and we don't dictate what they do.

对我来说，这将是一个非常好的实验尝试。

And then you try for me, that'd be a very good experiment.

就像你说的，想象一下你在获得充足电力五年后进行这次旅行会怎样。

Like you say, imagine if you took this trip five years after getting adequate power.

我们会观察到什么？

And what would we observe?

我们会看到哪些不同之处？

What are the differences would see?

他们如何应对潜在的...我是说，他们如何利用权力带来的机遇？

And how would they counteract any potential, you know, I mean, how would they take advantage of the opportunity of power?

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

我好奇的是，是否存在某些社区专门出口某种商品，比如某个社区以生产某样东西闻名，并大量销售给其他社区。

What I was curious about is, are there communities that export goods in some sort of like, is there a community that's like very well known for we create this one thing that we're actually selling to a lot of the other Yeah.

即使在很小的范围内，比如邻近城镇能获得的那一点点电力，几乎就像是图卡诺的小型出口。

Like even even even in a very small scale, the little electricity that is available another town over, basically, it's almost like the small export of Tucano.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

比如你可以来这里储存疫苗，然后再运过去。

Like the fact that you can come here to store your vaccines and then take them over.

比如你必须来这里打印数据，现在这两个社区之间因为一方有电力而产生了一些经济互动。

The fact that you have to come here to print your data, some economics that are now playing out between these two communities because one has electricity.

现在你可以想象杜卡纳的一个商人说，要是我能储存一些蔬菜会怎样？

Now you can imagine a farmer, I mean, a businessman in Dukana saying, what if I could store some vegetables?

而我正是那个向萨鲁出口蔬菜的人。

And I'm the guy who actually exports vegetables to Saru.

你已经能看到一些这样的苗头了。

You can see already some some play of that.

所以，你知道北方有趣的地方在于，那里很多族群都把财富储存在骆驼上。

So, you know, what's interesting about the North is that a lot of the the ethnic groups up there hold their wealth in camels.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

你们看到了这个。

You guys saw this.

是的。

Yep.

对吧？

Right?

这里是世界上人均骆驼数量最多的地方之一。

And it is one of the places in the world that has the most camels per capita.

对吧？

Right?

骆驼很多，人却很少。

It is a lot of camels and very few people.

但你还记得一头骆驼值多少钱吗？

But do you remember how much a camel's worth?

一千美元。

A thousand dollars.

一千。

A thousand.

对。

Yeah.

就是这样。

There we go.

一千美元。

A thousand dollars.

对吧？

Right?

所以你会看到成百上千的骆驼群。

And so you'd see herds of hundreds of camels.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们资产丰厚但现金匮乏。

So they're asset rich, cash poor.

是的。

Yep.

这意味着，首先，当你想在那里建立电力设施，想在那里做些事情时。

And what that means is when when you first of all, when you want to build power up there, you want to do something up there.

他们可以卖掉一头骆驼来投资另一项生意。

They can sell a camel to finance another business.

对吧？

Right?

他们可以这么做。

They can do that.

比如买一台焊接机，他们能办到。我们去的很多社区并没有这种高价值资产。

So to buy a welding machine, they can do A lot of the communities that we go to, they don't have that high value asset.

所以当我们在马拉维的穆兰杰时，他们种植菠萝、茶叶和一些蔬菜。

So when we're down in Malawi and Mulanje, they they they grow pineapples, they grow tea, they grow some vegetables.

对吧？

Right?

就是这样。

That's it.

他们并非时刻都拥有大量财富。

They're not sitting on a lot a lot of wealth all the time.

所以当你考虑如何利用获得的能源时，对吧？

So when you think about what do you do with the energy once you get it, right?

这实际上取决于社区的需求和当地企业家的意愿。

It really is determined by the community, what they want to do, by the entrepreneurs in the area.

这就像世界各地的情况一样，都是相同的。

It's like that's like everywhere in the world, it's the same.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我觉得北方人的优势在于他们拥有骆驼这种可变现资产，可以用来资助购买焊接设备。

And, but I think the the thing that the the people from the North have going for them is they have an asset they can they can liquidate in the form of a camel and they can finance their welding machine.

他们可以贷款买冰箱，并以此为基础开展业务。

They can finance a refrigerator and, they can make a business out of that too.

在内罗毕，我认识一个人，他确实销售很多昂贵商品。实际上，认识一个家伙说

In Nairobi, I actually know a person who actually sells, a lot of expensive Actually, know a guy who says

时机把握得太妙了。

The timing's amazing.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你真的去内罗毕的超市，会看到这些骆驼奶制品价格超高，是普通牛奶的10倍，而他就靠这个做起了生意。

If you actually go to an Nairobi Supermarket, you'll see these camel milk products that are super expensive, like 10x normal cow milk and he's made a business out of that.

想象一下，如果现在我有了冷藏技术，就能运输骆驼奶并提升其附加值。

So imagine if now I have refrigeration as there is a way to actually transport my camel milk and add value to it.

这将是一段绝佳的合作关系，因为他面临的难题是骆驼奶供应不足。

And that would be an incredible partnership between because his challenge is he doesn't have enough Camel milk.

应该有很多人想要这种骆驼奶。

There's a lot of people who want this Camel milk probably.

它的价值非常高。

It's super high value.

是的。

Yeah.

确实非常昂贵。

It's it's really expensive.

没错。

Yeah.

确实如此。

It's Right.

对。

Yeah.

所以我设想他们拥有骆驼，如果还有冷藏设备等，可以建立一种合作关系，这样经济上可行，能取走部分骆驼奶并销售给内罗毕的富裕阶层。

And so I could see they have Camel's with and if you have refrigeration and so on, imagine a partnership where it's actually economically viable to to take some of the milk from them and then take it to sell it to the Boushee Nairobians.

是的。

Yeah.

你刚刚提醒了我，我们我们我们错过了一个重要的文化体验——喝骆驼奶茶。

And you just reminded me, we we we skipped an important cultural experience which is having camel milk chai.

就像，我们我们我没有

Like, we we I'm not

太遗憾我们错过了这个。

too sad we missed that one.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

它是它是像烟熏味的。

It's it's like smoky.

就像，它是

Like, it's

他还是不遗憾错过了它。

He's still not sad he missed it.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

我

I

曾经是个毫无生气、心胸狭隘的家伙。

was I was I was a lifeless intolerant guy.

我是说，最酷的文化体验大概是埃里克的山羊劳伦了。

I mean, maybe the coolest cultural experience was Eric's lauren the goat.

你应该讲

You should tell

个故事。

a story.

我们

We

我们本来要养一只山羊的。

we were gonna have a goat.

我们原本打算和萨鲁部落的长老们分食一只山羊当晚餐。

We were gonna split a goat with the Saru tribe elders for dinner.

这也是表达我们想与他们合作的善意姿态。

It was like a gesture of goodwill as well to wanting to work with them.

他们牵来一只山羊，而我从未宰过山羊。

And they brought a goat up and I never slaughtered a goat.

他举起了手。

He raised his hand.

于是我说，我来处理这只吧。

So I said, I'll I'll take this one.

这事很有趣，因为丹尼和我之前还讨论过。

And and it's funny because Danny and I were talking about it.

丹尼说，我我我可做不到那样。

Danny's like, I I I couldn't do that.

我当时就想，反正我们总要吃它的。

I was just like, well, we're gonna eat it.

哦，不。

So Oh, no.

更厉害的人来宰羊。

The greater man slaughters the goat.

他直视着山羊的

He looks the goat in the

眼睛。

eyes.

我知道他很虚伪，但那就像是丹尼的近照。

I know he was being hypocritical but that's like that's up close of Danny.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是啊。

Yeah.

但后来有趣的是，有位长老想做最后的切割，因为那是清真宰杀。

It was but then the what was interesting is one of the elders, he wanted to do, like, you know, like, the last cut because It's halal.

这是清真食品。

It's halal.

从技术上讲，需要一个穆斯林来宰杀山羊之类的，但是

He needed to technically a Muslim needed to slaughter the goat or something, but

有道理。

Makes sense.

那是只好山羊。

It was a good goat.

你做了辛苦的工作。

You did the hard work.

是的，我做了。

I did yeah.

我干了重活。

I did the heavy lifting.

那是只好山羊。

It was a good goat.

我说我们一起做的

And I said We did

动作很快。

it quick.

我对丹尼说，丹尼，你的相机不错。

I said to Danny, Danny, you you have a good camera.

你能拍他吗？

Will you film him?

丹尼却说，我连看都不想看。

And Danny's like, I don't even wanna see that.

Beta，和社区一起做这件事其实很有意思，首先我们给了他们现金。

Beta, it like, doing that with the community is actually a very interesting thing because one, we gave them cash.

我们按市场价买了山羊，他们实际上获得了资产价值。

We bought the goat at So a market they actually, they earn the asset value.

他们拿到了资产价值的报酬。

They got paid the asset value.

但他们不会整天到处宰杀山羊。

But they don't go around slaughtering goats all the time.

他们不会坐在那里大快朵颐地吃肉。

They're not sitting there gorging themselves on meat.

所以当别人买了山羊，然后邀请你来享用，还不用担心想吃多少就吃多少。

And so to have somebody else buy the goat and then invite you to enjoy the goat and not have to worry about like eating as much as you want.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这真的是一种...在这种社区里确实是令人难以置信的举动。

It's it's a it really is a it's it's an incredible gesture in a community like that.

确实。

Yeah.

而且这很有趣。

And and it's fun.

就像这样

Like, it

味道很好。

tastes good.

所以你知道，大多数时候我们只专注于能源和比特币挖矿。

So, you know, most of the time we focus on we're just on energy and Bitcoin mining.

我的意思是，我们有点简单。

I mean, we're kind of simple.

这就是我们做的全部。

That's all we do.

但如果你仔细想想，这确实引出了一个问题：在这些相同的地方，比特币还能用来做什么？

But it does if you think about it, like, it does beg the question, like, what else could be done with Bitcoin in these same places?

对吧？

Right?

如果他们已经理解以骆驼形式存在的资产，他们能否理解以比特币形式存在的资产并拥有更好的流动性？

If they already understand assets and and in the form of camels, could they understand assets in the form of Bitcoin and have more liquidity?

因为卖一头骆驼其实挺容易的。

Because it's actually pretty easy to sell one camel.

但要卖十头就难了。

It's hard to sell 10.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

而且，你知道，经常有人问我们，'嘿，你们为比特币社区做了些什么？'

And, you know, there's you know, often people ask us, hey, you know, what do you guys do with the community for Bitcoin?

我们就说，'呃，我们做得不多。'

And we're like, well, we don't do very much.

我们团队很小。

Our job we have a small team.

我们就是挖比特币的。

We mine Bitcoin.

我们的业务就是这些。

Our operations are that.

但如果其他人想加入，被介绍给社区学习比特币知识，并在那个社区用比特币做些事情，教导他们相关知识，我们很乐意提供帮助。

But if anybody else wants to come in and and be introduced to the community to learn about Bitcoin and do something with Bitcoin in that community, teach them about it, we'd be happy to do so.

对吧？

Right?

我们已经在肯尼亚等多个地方这样做过。

And we've done that up in in Kenya and a number of places.

但让我思考的是，当你观察那个Sorrow社区时，你是否能看到一条路径，让他们首先用闪电网络支付电费代币。

But it makes me think, like, when when you look at that Sorrow community, could you, you know, could you see a path to them maybe, first of all, paying for their electricity tokens in with Lightning.

对吧？

Right?

如果他们已经在用比特币做一件事，那他们能否用它来做另一件事？

What and then and then if they're using it for one thing, could they use it for another?

你是否希望在不卖出比特币的情况下获取现金？

Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin?

Ledden让这成为可能。

Well, Ledden makes that possible.

他们是比特币抵押贷款领域的全球领导者，自2018年以来已发放超过90亿美元的贷款，并保持着完美的客户资产保护记录。

They're the global leader in Bitcoin backed lending, and since 2018, they've issued over $9,000,000,000 in loans with a perfect record of protecting client assets.

通过Ledden，您可以获得完全托管的贷款，无需信用检查或按月还款，轻松获取美元而无需出售任何SAT。

With Ledden, you get full custody loans with no credit checks or monthly repayments, just easy access to dollars without selling a single SAT.

自7月1日起，Ledden仅支持比特币业务，这意味着他们专门提供比特币抵押贷款，所有抵押品都由Ledden或其资金合作伙伴直接持有。

As of July 1, Ledden is Bitcoin only, meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin backed loans with all collateral held by Ledden directly or their funding partners.

您的比特币永远不会被借出以产生利息。

Your Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest.

我最近在Ledden申请了一笔贷款。

I recently took out a loan with Ledden.

整个过程超级简单。

The whole process was super easy.

申请过程不到十五分钟，几小时后美元就到账了。

The application took me less than fifteen minutes, and in a few hours, I had the dollars in my account.

整个过程非常顺畅。

It was really smooth.

所以如果你需要现金但不想出售比特币，请访问leaden.io/wbd，你的首笔贷款将享受0.25%的优惠。

So if you need cash but you don't wanna sell Bitcoin, head over to leaden.io/wbd, and you'll get point 25% off your first loan.

网址是leaden.io/wbd。

That's leaden.io/wbd.

如果你已经自主保管比特币，你应该了解硬件钱包的那些事。

If you're already self custody of Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets.

复杂的设置、笨拙的界面，以及可能丢失、被盗或遗忘的助记词。

Complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten.

而BitKey解决了这些问题。

Well, BitKey fixes that.

BitKey是由Square和Cash App团队开发的多签硬件钱包。

BitKey is a multisig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square and Cash App.

它集成了加密恢复系统和内置继承功能，操作直观简单，无需担心助记词问题。

It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built in inheritance feature into an intuitive, easy to use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over.

它简单、安全，无需担忧的自我托管，《时代》杂志将BitKey评为2024年最佳发明之一。

It's simple, secure self custody without the stress, and Time named BitKey one of the best inventions of 2024.

在bitkey.world使用代码wbd可享8折优惠。

Get 20% off at bitkey.world when you use the code w b d.

访问bitkey.world并使用代码wbd。

That's bitkey.world and use the code w b d.

本节目由Anchor Watch赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Anchor Watch.

让我夜不能寐的是比特币冷存储可能出现的致命错误，而Anchor Watch正是为此而生。

The thing that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage, and this is where Anchor Watch comes in.

通过Anchor Watch，您的比特币将获得由伦敦劳埃德保险公司A+级评分的保单保障，所有比特币均存放在其时间锁定的多重签名金库中。

With Anchor Watch, your Bitcoin is insured with your own a plus rated Lloyd's of London insurance policy, and all Bitcoin is held in their time locked multisig vaults.

因此您可以安心，因为您的比特币在保持托管权的同时获得了保险保障。

So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is insured while not giving up custody.

无论您担心的是继承规划、租金攻击、自然灾害，还是您自己犯的愚蠢错误，Anchor Watch都能为您提供保护。

So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, rent attacks, natural disasters, or just your own silly mistakes, you're protected by Anchor Watch.

全保险托管服务的费率最低仅需0.55%，面向美国境内的个人及商业客户开放。

Rates for fully insured custody start as low as point 55% and are available for individual and commercial customers located in The US.

请联系Anchor Watch获取报价，并了解更多安全选项及保障范围的详细信息。

Speak to Anchor Watch for a quote and for more details about your security options and coverage.

立即访问anchorwatch.com。

Visit anchorwatch.com today.

网址是anchorwatch.com。

That is anchorwatch.com.

嗯，这某种程度上让我们回想起在基贝拉的见闻。

Well, this kinda gets back to what we saw in Kibera.

因为，内特，简单补充下背景，我们当时去了基贝拉——那里应该是内罗毕最大的贫民窟。

Because, like, Nate, for just for context, we went to Kibera, which is, I think, the largest slum in yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们去了那里——那确实是内罗毕最大的贫民窟。

But we went so but that's the largest slum in Nairobi.

对吧？

Right?

是吗？

Is it?

是的。

Yes.

所以我们和马克、来自Afrobit的米奇一起去了那里。

And and so we went there with me, Mark, Mitch from Afrobit.

我们考察了那个社区。

We looked at that community.

他们可能拥有我见过最完善的循环经济体系。

They they have maybe the best circular economy I've I've seen.

我记得大概有56个不同的商户，不对是60个。

I think there was something like 56 different merchants who 60 were five.

有65家商户接受比特币支付。

65 merchants that were accepting Bitcoin.

最酷的事情之一是，我在这些比特币循环经济中看到的问题是，比特币最初是如何到达那里的？

One of the cool things is, like, the problem with that I've seen with these, like, circular Bitcoin economies is how does the Bitcoin get there in the first place?

然后我们和拥有垃圾收集业务的人交谈，他接受比特币支付，并用比特币支付他的25名员工工资。

And then we were speaking to the guy who owns the trash collection business, and he's getting paid in Bitcoin and then paying his 25 employees in Bitcoin.

所以这就像是自然而然地融入了这种循环经济。

So it's, like, naturally getting into this, like, circular economy.

你之前说过，当你在那里设置星链时，你对这件事也相当怀疑。

And you were saying that when you went to set up the Starlink out there, you were also quite skeptical of this.

然后你看到有人用比特币买橙子。

And then you saw someone buying oranges in in Bitcoin.

是的。

Yeah.

这不是安排好的，因为有时候你和带你参观社区的人一起走，他们可能已经告诉那边的人'你能不能待在那里？'

It wasn't a setup because sometimes you're walking with somebody who's showing you their community and they probably have told somebody over there, oh, could you stay there?

我们要带个人来和你谈谈。

We're bringing someone to talk to you.

就在我们和这边的人交谈时，我看到到处都是Blink的二维码，还有人正在扫码，另一个人扫码后拿走了几个橘子。

And so while we're talking to somebody here, I'm looking at all these QR codes for blink and I'm seeing somebody actually scanning and another person scanning, taking a couple of oranges.

我当时就想，哇，这太酷了。

I'm like, wow, this is pretty cool.

这就是普通老百姓。

That is the average person.

不是什么科技达人。

It's not like a tech savvy guy.

只是一位普通妈妈在给孩子们买橘子。

It's the average mom buying oranges for her kids.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们正在扫描比特币的二维码。

And they're scanning a bit a bitcoin QR code.

没错。

Yeah.

因为这就是我一直问米奇的问题。

Because that was the question I kept asking Mitch.

我当时就想，这只是你们小范围比特币社区在使用，还是所有人都在用？

I was like, is this just like you and your, like, smaller bitcoin community using this or is it everyone?

比如我在想，街上的这个人会用比特币吗？

Like, I was like, this guy on the street, is he going to be using bitcoin?

米奇，是啊。

Mitch, yeah.

回到萨鲁的话题，让我意识到的是人们总会找到支付方式。

And and the thing that, like, to get back to Saru, the thing that that I think made me realize is people will find a way to pay for it.

如果你提供电力而他们只能用SACs支付，他们就会想办法搞定。

Like, if you're offering, you know, electricity and the only option they have is paying SACs, they're gonna figure out how to do it.

那么他们这样做有什么好处呢？

And then what's the benefit to them of doing that?

我们还要注入资金，关键点在于这是比特币，这个全球市场正在向那个社区注入资本。

And and we're gonna inject, I mean, is the other thing, it's like, this is Bitcoin, this global marketplace that's injecting capital into that community.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我们将用赚取的比特币来支付工资。

Because we're gonna use the Bitcoin we earn to pay the salaries.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们可以用比特币支付这些工资。

We could pay those salaries in Bitcoin.

所以这实际上是在向那个社区注入真实资本。

So that's that's now injecting, you know, real capital into that community.

我其实还观察到另一个动态，这让我看到了比特币的一个实际用例。

And there is actually another dynamic I saw, which I actually saw a use case for Bitcoin.

你看到他们在喝的不是肯尼亚产的啤酒。

You saw they're drinking beer that's not from Kenya.

对。

Yeah.

啤酒是从埃塞俄比亚来的。

The beer is from Ethiopia.

因为更便宜。

Because it's cheaper.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且，甚至在货币兑换上也有摩擦，没错。

And and and even there's friction in currency Yeah.

在肯尼亚消费者和埃塞俄比亚商人之间。

Between the Kenyan consumer and an Ethiopian trader.

那些深色的骆驼，他们实际上是从埃塞俄比亚购买的。

The darker camels, they actually buy those from Ethiopia.

所以如果你考虑肯尼亚和埃塞俄比亚之间的货币状况，那里存在摩擦。

And so if you think about the currency situation between Kenya and Ethiopia, there's friction there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

事实上，如果你想象一下，这又是比特币真正能在跨境贸易中发挥作用的一种方式，那将涉及肯尼亚人和埃塞俄比亚人。

And if you imagine that in fact is another way that Bitcoin could actually help in in in in in a cross border trade That'll be Kenyans and Ethiopians.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，当我看到这种采用情况发生时，如果我们思考货币在历史上是如何运作的，然后想想当人们自然地在私人市场中采用货币时，它具有某些使其成为良好货币的特性，其中一个特性就是广泛的接受度。而这一点实际上经常被用来作为对比特币的批评。

Well, one of the interesting things that, like, when I see this type of adoption happening and if we think about how money worked historically and then when we think about how all you know when people were adopting money naturally in private markets, it had certain properties that made a good money and and one of those properties is just like a wide acceptability And and that's something that's actually used today often as just like a criticism of Bitcoin.

比如说，那些在原始社会中使用的商品，像牛、盐之类的。

It's like, oh, that's know, it's typically goods that were used in primitive societies like cattle, like salt.

它们是大多数人自然拥有的东西。

They were they were things that were naturally held by most people.

每个人都想自然地拥有牛，那么它成为一种货币形式就很自然，因为人们对它总有持续的需求。

Everybody wanted to have cattle naturally, and then it's it's natural that it can become a form of money because there's always a constant demand for it.

当我们用比特币来思考这个问题时，就像，好吧。

And and when we think about that with Bitcoin, it's like, okay.

那么我们如何让比特币自然流入大众手中呢？

So how are we gonna naturally get Bitcoin in the hands of a bunch of people?

我认为当我们思考这些社区将如何随时间发展时，关键在于他们意识到世界其他地区已接入电网，拥有某种最低结算价格，可以随时将电力回售给电网。

And and I think that when we think about how, you know, how will these communities grow over time when they realize that the rest of the world is connected to the grid, has some, like, floor clearing clearing price that they're always able to sell back onto the grid with.

而现在比特币对于未接入电网的地区来说正是扮演这个角色。

And now Bitcoin's just that for the world that's not connected to the grid.

因此这具有重大意义，我认为它可能成为任何离网能源投资形式的基础性存在。

And so that that's that's has major implications, and I think it it could be something that becomes incredibly foundational to any sort of like off grid form of energy investment.

当我们思考这个问题时，就像：如果一个社区将其作为离网经济的基本效用函数，自然就会开始围绕其进行经济优化。

And and when we think about that, it's like, So if you're a community and this becomes just like a basic utility function for any sort of off grid economy, then you're naturally going to start trying to economize around that.

我毫不意外未来会看到社区开始自发地对自主挖矿产生更大兴趣。

And I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see communities, you know, do something similar, do something natively where they're actually getting more interested in mining the Bitcoin themselves.

比如，如果我们拥有自主产能，就像埃里克你做得很出色那样。

Like, well, you know, if we have our own capacity and like, Eric, you're doing a great job.

机架上还有位置给我吗？

You got space on the racks for me?

是啊，你有

Yeah, you got

机架上正好有我的位置。

some space on the racks for me, exactly.

而且，如果随着时间推移你看到这种情况发展，我也不会感到惊讶，这确实是件非常有趣的事。

And like, I wouldn't be surprised if you start to see that as they grow over time and it's like, that's actually a really interesting thing too.

那么或许会因为这种情况，在社区之间形成一些小型、微型的交换形式。

Then maybe there's like little, know, mini forms of exchange that are happening between communities because of that.

但这正是我认为可以实现的地方——如果你想要自下而上的比特币普及，想要一个让它作为货币用例被广泛接受的天然理由。

But like that that's something where I could see it's like if you want like bottom up Bitcoin adoption and you want to have like a natural reason that makes it widely accepted for the monetary use case.

这绝对是我见过最符合自然激励机制的方案，能真正实现这种结果。

Like this is definitely the most natural incentive aligned function I think I've really seen that would create that outcome.

对人们来说。

For people.

你知道，我也这么认为。

You know, I think so too.