为什么每家公司都将持有比特币 | 弗雷迪·纽

最终，所有公司都将在资产负债表上持有比特币。第一天，重点是尽可能多地获取比特币，但我们希望成为比特币基础设施系统中绝对不可或缺的一部分。比特币目前的总市值约为2,000,000,000,000美元。我们谈论的是一个总财富池，规模达数百兆美元。比特币就像一只800磅重的大猩猩坐在角落里，而所有这些小小的狨猴却在四处乱窜。

Eventually, all companies will hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet. Day one, it's about acquiring as much Bitcoin as we can, but we want to be an absolutely integral part of the Bitcoin infrastructure system. Total market cap of Bitcoin is roughly 2,000,000,000,000 at the moment. We are talking about a total pool of wealth that is in the hundreds of trillions. Bitcoin is this like 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner while all of these tiny little marmosets are scurrying around.

而那只大猩猩只是坐在那里什么也不做。我希望它站起来开始捶胸。如果你不与政客接触，他们只会制定糟糕的法律。政客没有动力去理解，因为这会削弱他们的一些权力。但在某个时刻，他们可能会意识到，通过拥抱而非抵制，他们实际上可以获得更多的金钱和权力。

And the gorilla's just sitting there doing nothing. I want him to get up and start beating his chest. If you don't engage with politicians, they just mean bad laws. There's no incentives for politicians to understand because people take away some of their power. But at some point, they may realize that they can actually get more money and more power by embracing it rather than resisting it.

我认为那是一个转折点。干杯。干杯。很高兴见到

And I think that's a tipping point. Cheers. Cheers. Nice to see

你再次光临。欢迎来到新版《比特币做了什么》。这是你的首次亮相。确实是。

you again. Welcome to the new What Bitcoin Did. This is your first appearance. It is.

非常感谢再次邀请我。

Thank you very much for having me back.

比特币界最优雅的男人。

The poshest man in Bitcoin.

这还成立吗？

Is that still true?

我也这么认为。我想不出还有谁比你更显贵气了。

I think so. I can't think of someone more posh.

没错。我的意思是，你看，我母亲婚前确实有个双姓的名字。所以这就是了。而且我祖父曾经是现在的伦敦市长。

Yeah. I mean, we need I mean, my mother did have a double barreled name before she got married. So There you go. And my grandfather was what's now the the mayor of London. So

你祖父是伦敦市长？

Your grandfather was the mayor of London?

嗯，他曾是大伦敦议会(GLC)的主席，是一位保守党政治家，名叫伯纳德·布鲁克-帕特里奇。所以也许我确实是比特币圈里最显贵的人。

Well, he was the head of the GLC, the general under council, who's a conservative politician, Bernard Brook Partridge. So perhaps I am the poshest man in Bitcoin.

我也这么想。我觉得你刚刚证实了这一点。你祖父会如何看待伦敦的现状？

I think so. I think you just solidified it. What would your grandfather think of the state of London today?

嗯，我祖父在YouTube上仅存的一段视频，我记得是他在痛斥性手枪乐队，并且很高兴他终于成功让性用品商店的橱窗都涂上了不透明的油漆层——这种情况直到最近才有所改变。

Well, the one surviving clip, I think, of my grandfather that is on YouTube is of him ranting about the sex pistols and how pleased he is that he's finally managed to get sex shop windows covered in opaque layers of paint, which until recently was still the case.

我们需要更多的朋克精神。

We need more punk.

我与其说是纯粹的朋克，不如说更偏向密码朋克。公平。从我的声音、发型以及对领带的喜爱，你大概能看出来。我不知道你是否

I I'm more of a cypher punk fan than a straight punk. Fair. As you can probably tell by my voice and my haircuts and my love for ties. I don't know if you have a

真的喜欢领带。我觉得你只是在必要时伪装成西装客。

love for ties really. I think you you masquerade as a suit coiner when it's necessary.

是啊。我是说，我确实喜欢一套好西装。

Yeah. I mean, I do like a good suit.

是吗？

Do you?

没错。我家衣柜里大概有40条爱马仕领带。天啊。我当了好几年的公司律师。

Yeah. I've got about 40 Hermes ties in my cupboard home. Holy shit. I was a I was a corporate lawyer for years.

我只有一套在婚礼上穿过的西装，另外唯一一次穿

I have one suit that I wore on my wedding, and then I wear the only other time I've worn

是在BPI的大型活动上。不错。

it is at big at BPI events. Nice.

是的。因为他们让我穿西装。

Yeah. Because they make me wear a suit.

哦，我以前经常浏览一个网站，上面详细介绍了詹姆斯·邦德的所有西装定制地点和品牌，所以我虔诚地追随这些信息。我过去会在同一家教堂买鞋，还有Cockerton Jones的黑色牛津鞋，Drake's的领带，以及German Street的Sandberg和Assass衬衫。

Oh, I used to read a website where which told you exactly where James Bond got all of his suits made and who the brands were, and so I religiously followed this. I used to get my shoes in the same churches and Cockerton Jones, black capital Oxfords, Drake's ties, Sandberg and Assass shirts from German Street.

所以你正式成为西装控了。你甚至说'西装'这个词。

So you're you are officially a suit coin. You even say it suit.

是的。那是相当老派的发音。

Yes. That's quite an old fashioned pronunciation.

真的吗？

Is that right?

是的。现在没多少人这么说了。

Yeah. Not many people say that anymore.

是啊。我以前从没听过这种说法。所以这大概是我有过的最上流的对话了。

Yeah. I've never heard that before. So this might be the poshest conversation I've ever had.

天哪。好吧，我认为这里的结论是，我们需要在比特币领域有更多上流社会的代表。

Jesus Christ. Well, I I think the conclusion here is we need more posh representation in Bitcoin.

确实如此。我们需要比特币的多样性。

We do. We need we need diversity in Bitcoin.

上流人士的命也是命。

Posh lives matter.

但我们是来讨论完全不同的事情的。你是最新的比特币储备公司——好像我们还不够多似的。怎么回事？

But we're here to talk about something totally different. You are the latest Bitcoin treasury company as if we didn't have enough. What's happening?

是的。这是激动人心的时刻。而且，很明显，为什么这么说呢？就像等公交车一样，不是吗？你整晚都在等一家比特币储备公司，然后一下子来了三家。所以，我几个月前宣布，我算是要退出恐惧的世界了。

Yeah. It it's exciting times. And, obviously, why It's like waiting for a bus, isn't it? You you wait all night for a Bitcoin treasury company and then three of them arrive at once. So so I announced a couple of months ago that I was sort of moving out of the fear world.

嗯。显然，我一直想从事比特币相关工作很久了，当时提议我加入Coin Corner。作为讨论的一部分，我们开始探索Coin Corner团队的一些成员正在筹备的新项目。在这些讨论中，我们决定我不加入Coin Corner，而是加入这个新项目并负责领导它。所以我会担任那里的CEO。

Mhmm. I'd obviously wanted to work in Bitcoin for for a long time, and that it was proposed that I was going to join Coin Corner. As part of those discussions, we began to explore a new venture that some of the Coin Corner team were were working on. And as part of those discussions, we decided that instead of joining Coin Corner, I joined the new venture and would head it up. So I'm gonna be acting as the CEO there.

这些目前都还未公开，但我想等到这次访谈播出时

None of this is is public yet, but I think by the time this interview

等到这个消息公布时，一切都会公开的。

By the time this goes out, it'll all be public.

一切都会公开。我们将宣布我认为会非常令人兴奋的变革，不仅对我们而言，也希望对比特币行业也是如此。嗯。所以你专注于这是一个比特币储备公司的想法。我想说它不仅仅是一个比特币储备公司。

It will all be public. And we will have announced what I think is gonna be quite exciting change, not just for us, but hopefully for the Bitcoin industry as well. Mhmm. So you focus on the idea that this is a Bitcoin treasury company. I would say that it's not just a Bitcoin treasury company.

我们的目标本质上是将比特币作为我们的业务，我们显然会在谈话中深入探讨这一点。但我们的想法是，我们不仅会收购和持有比特币，还会通过将这些比特币部署到闪电网络节点中积极使用它，并由此产生收入。因此，我们非常希望这是一个真正的、功能性的、盈利的运营业务，它恰好购买和持有比特币，并积极希望积累尽可能多的比特币。考虑到我们的商业模式实际上涉及比特币的收购和部署，对我们来说，尽可能快地筹集尽可能多的资金，尽快部署尽可能多的资金，是完全合理的商业意义，因为这会创造一个良性循环或飞轮效应。嗯。持续收购部署收入收购部署收入。

We we aim to essentially make Bitcoin our business, and we'll obviously delve into this as we talk. But the idea is that we will not just acquire and hold Bitcoin, but we will actively use that particularly via the deployment of that Bitcoin into Lightning nodes and generate revenue thereby. So we want very much want this to be a genuine, functional, profitable operating business, which happens to buy and hold Bitcoin and aggressively wants to accumulate as much of that Bitcoin as we can. Considering that our business model actually involves the acquisition deployment of Bitcoin, it makes complete business sense for us to raise as much capital as we can as quickly as possible, deploy as much as we possibly can as soon as we can, because that then creates a virtuous circle or or a flywheel Mhmm. Of continuing acquisition deployment revenue acquisition deployment revenue.

好的。那么让我们回到最开始。这家新成立的公司是由CoinCorner支持的。你能谈谈还有谁会参与这个项目吗？

Okay. So let's go right back to the start. This new company that's spinning up is backed by CoinCorner. Can you talk about who else is gonna be involved in the project?

是的。我可以给你几个名字。这些也都会公开。而且，这可能是我们在与投资者交谈时经常第三个提到的事项，但我觉得像你这样从一开始就关注这一点是值得的。所以我们认为自己的一个关键差异化因素是我们是一家比特币优先、仅比特币、并专注于比特币的企业。

Yeah. I can give you a few names. So these will all be public as well. And, this is probably the the item that we we often flag third when we're speaking to investors, but I think it's worth doing as you have and actually focusing on this from day one. So one of the key differentiating factors that we see for ourselves is that we are a Bitcoin first, Bitcoin only, and Bitcoin focused business.

嗯。所以很多其他的储备公司，其中很多我喜欢并且钦佩其管理层的，例如Strategy或SWC，这些都是从不同业务领域起步并转型的公司。我们的差异化因素实际上是双重的。我们从比特币起步。我们将留在比特币领域，并且加入团队的人是一些最知名、经验最丰富、专注于英国的比特币人。

Mhmm. So a lot of the other treasury companies, many of which I I like and whose management I admire, strategy, for example, or SWC, those are companies which began in different business sectors and have pivoted. The differentiating factor for us is really twofold. We're starting in Bitcoin. We're gonna remain in Bitcoin, and the people coming on board are some of the best known and most well experienced Bitcoiners with a UK focus.

所以给你几个名字。除了我之外，Coin Corner的Danny将加入担任首席比特币官。Coin Corner的Dave将加入担任我们的首席财务官。所以已经是两位最受尊敬、经验最丰富的人了。Zach和Cornynor将过来担任首席技术官。

So just giving you a few names. So alongside me, we're gonna have Danny from Coin Corner who's joining as the chief Bitcoin officer. Dave from Coin Corner is joining as our CFO. So two of the most well respected and most experienced people already. Zach and Cornynor is coming over as a CTO.

所以他将负责技术方面的事务。Zach和Danny之间，你们可能拥有管理和运行闪电节点经验最丰富的人员组合之一。是的，这将是核心业务主张。我们还有Alan Farrington加入担任董事。David Jax正从PayPal加入我们。

So he'll be handling the technical side of things. Between between Zach and Danny, you probably got one of the most experienced sets of people in managing and running a Lightning node Yep. Which would be the core business proposition. We've also got Alan Farrington coming on board as as a director. David Jax is joining us from PayPal.

他是PayPal的首任首席财务官，现在加入我们担任董事长。

So he was PayPal's first ever CFO, and he's coming on board as chairman.

他是比特币支持者吗？

Is he a Bitcoiner?

现在他是了。

He is now.

他在PayPal具体做什么？我很好奇。

And so what did he do at PayPal? I'm interested.

他在非常非常早期的时候是他们的首席财务官。所以，好吧，就是首席财务官。是的。也许值得花点时间谈谈这个。

He was their CFO in the very, very early days. So Okay. The chief financial officer. Yep. And perhaps it's worth spending a bit of time on that.

我认为我们在组建团队时试图做的是汇集一群非常专注于比特币，也非常专注于支付技术，同时对资本市场、资金筹集以及资产管理有广泛深入了解的人才。Alan的背景当然是在Baillie Gifford，如你所知，那是全球最大的资产和财富管理公司之一。Baillie Gifford曾是我在Rebson Gray时的客户，我为他们完成了一系列交易。我为Baillie Gifford做的一些最有趣的工作，特别是在他们早期的初创公司和科技投资方面。

So across I think between what we tried to do in assembling the team here is to put together a group of people who are very, very focused on Bitcoin, also very, very focused on Paytech, and also with a wide and broad understanding of capital markets and and money raising and also asset management. So Alan's background, of course, is with with Bailey Gifford, as you'll know, one of the biggest asset and wealth managers in the world. Bailey Gifford happened to be a client of mine when I was at Rebson Gray. I did a bunch of deals for them. Some of the most interesting work I did was for Bailey Gifford, particularly in their early startup and tech work.

而且，大卫显然拥有非常非常丰富的企业经验。应该说，大卫还曾在多家银行董事会任职。他曾是硅谷银行的董事，也在巴克莱银行工作过。嗯。

And also, have obviously very, very extreme corporate experience from David. I should say that David's also been on boards of banks. He was on Silicon Valley Bank. He's worked for Barclays as well. Mhmm.

所以他横跨了支付科技和传统金融两个世界。我们真的希望将比特币世界、支付科技世界以及金融资本市场和资产管理世界的这三方面经验结合起来，构建我们正在努力打造的金字塔基础层。嗯。

So he straddles both the Paytech and the traditional financial world. And we really want to combine that, I suppose, that triumvirate of experience between the Bitcoin world, the Paytech world, and the financial capital markets and asset management worlds to really, suppose, the the base layer of the pyramid that we're trying to build. Mhmm.

那么好吧。董事会里还有其他值得提及的人吗？

And so okay. Is there anyone else on the board worth mentioning?

嗯，我还没怎么谈过我自己，不过我们彼此都认识。

Well, I haven't talked very much about myself, but we know each other.

不。但我认为实际上值得深入了解你的背景，因为在比特币领域，我想大多数人知道你是因为政策方面的工作。是的。但你显然在那之前就有丰富的经验，所以也许值得谈谈这个。

No. But I think actually it's worth getting into your background because in Bitcoin, I imagine most people know you as the policy person. Yes. But you obviously have extensive experience before that, so maybe it is worth talking about that.

是的。当然。非常非常乐意分享。我的职业背景是，我在富而德律师事务所接受律师培训，这是英国最古老、最受尊敬的律所之一。有趣的是，它还是英格兰银行两三百年的法律顾问。

Yeah. Sure. Very very happy to do that. So my professional background, I trained as a lawyer at at Freshfields, which is one of the the oldest and most well respected firms in in The UK. Funnily enough, the Bank of England's lawyers for two or three hundred years.

我相信这绝非巧合。在那里我为许多私募股权公司工作，主要做私有化交易，但也为各种不同的上市公司董事会提供咨询。所以我曾与Cattles PLC的董事会合作。当我还是年轻律师实习生时，我会为像乐购这样的公司董事会起草简报文件。我还曾在Avis Europe被Avis US收购期间为其董事会提供建议。

No coincidence, I'm sure. And so there I worked for a lot of private equity houses, largely doing take privates, but I also advised the boards of various different, listed companies. So I worked with the Board of Cattles PLC. When I when I was a young lawyer trainee, I would draft briefing papers for the boards of companies such as Tesco. And I also advised the board of Avis Europe when they were undergoing their their takeover by by Avis US.

所以把它们重新整合在一起。我完成了有史以来第一家上市公司的首次预包装管理。我认为这就是我们所做的。这句话听起来如此深奥怪异，而且没人会记得。但如果将来有维基页面的话，你一定会出现在上面。

So pushing them back together. I did the first prepack administration of a listed company ever. I think that's we do. That's that that's such an esoterically weird thing to say, and it's something that no one will ever remember. But if there is ever a Wiki page on You will be on it.

是的。那是个糟糕的交易。那是DTZ PLC公司。所以我在为非上市公司提供董事会咨询方面经验丰富，同时也处理上市公司业务。嗯。这对于我作为新公司CEO将要承担的责任至关重要。

Yeah. That was a horrendous deal. That was that was DTZ PLC. So I've got a lot of experience both in terms of advising boards at unlisted companies, but also doing listed company work as well Mhmm. Which is crucially important for the kind of responsibilities I will have as CEO of our new company.

我们或许应该提到名字，我想等我们公开时大家就会知道。是的。我们最终确定了BeeHodl这个名字。很明显，那个蜜蜂图案看起来像比特币蜜蜂。我不知道它听起来有点像'behold'是不是故意的，但你知道，我喜欢它。也许吧，也许这里面有个营销策略。

We should probably mention the name, which I think will be in public domain by the time we Yep. We've we've finally settled on BeeHodl. Obviously, the the bee looking like, the Bitcoin bee. I don't know whether it's deliberate that it sounds a little bit like behold, but, you know I I like it, Maybe yeah. Maybe there's a marketing ploy there.

Behold，be huddle。总之，不要

Behold, be huddle. Anyway, don't

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通过Ledden，您可以获得完全托管的贷款，无需信用检查，无需每月还款，轻松获取美元而无需出售任何SAT（比特币最小单位）。自7月1日起，Ledden专营比特币业务，意味着他们独家提供比特币抵押贷款，所有抵押品由Ledden直接或其资金合作伙伴持有。您的比特币永远不会被借出以产生利息。我最近在Ledden办理了贷款，整个过程再简单不过了。申请流程不到15分钟，几小时内美元就到账了。

With Ledden, you get full custody loans with no credit checks, no monthly repayments, just easy access to dollars without selling a single SAT. As of July 1, Ledden is Bitcoin only, meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin backed loans with all collateral held by Ledden directly or their funding partners. Your Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest. I recently took out a loan with Ledden, and the whole process couldn't have been easier. It took me less than fifteen minutes to go through the application, and in just a few hours, I had the dollars in my account.

体验超级顺畅。所以如果您需要现金但不想出售比特币，请访问ledden.i0/wbd，您将获得首次贷款0.25%的优惠。网址是ledn.i0/wbd。这家不仅仅是国库公司的重点企业是英国的。那么在投资方面，还有哪些人会参与进来呢？

It was super smooth. So if you need cash but you don't wanna sell Bitcoin, head over to ledden.i0/wbd, and you'll get point 25% off your first loan. That's ledn.i0/wbd. The focus on this treasury company, which is more than just a treasury company, is British. So who else have you got to come in on, like, the investment side?

Adam Back将在公司持有重要股份，他将在IPO前进行认购。嗯。能有他加入真是太棒了。如果能够借鉴他的专业知识，那将非常理想。我认为他这么早就以如此大的热情加入，对我们未来的前景来说是个好兆头。

Well, Adam Back is taking a significant position in the company, so he will be subscribing prior prior to IPO. Mhmm. So fantastic to have him on board. And to the extent that we can draw on his expertise, that would be fantastic. And I think the fact that he's coming in this early on and with this much enthusiasm is a good sign for our future prospects.

当然，我们希望尽可能从与他的关联中获益，他作为我们的股东之一，我将对他履行我的职责。嗯。同时也得益于他在比特币领域的丰富经验。

And certainly, we'd like to to gain as much benefit as we can both from our association with him as one of our shareholders to whom I will be owing my duties. Mhmm. And also his incredible experience in in the Bitcoin world.

是的。另外需要完全披露的是，我也将成为投资者。说起来有点尴尬，因为我一向对国库公司持批评态度。但明确地说，让我感兴趣的原因是你们拥有的团队。当Danny第一次告诉我这件事时，首先我认为Danny和CoyCon团队所做的非常了不起。

Yeah. And also so full disclosure, I am also gonna be an investor. It's funny because I almost feel awkward about saying it because I've been so critical of treasury companies. And, like, to be very clear, the reason this is interesting to me is because of the team you guys have. So when Danny first told me about this, first of all, I think what Danny and the team at CoyCon have done is incredible.

太了不起了。他们是我深深信任的人。最打动我的是这是一项比特币优先的布局。所以也许值得深入了解一下这个商业模式的具体架构。

Incredible. Like, they're people that I trust deeply. And the thing that resonated with me is that this is a Bitcoin first play. So maybe it's worth getting into, like, how this business model is actually set up.

当然。也许在我回答这个问题之前，我认为保持怀疑态度是正确的。嗯。我们来自一个鼓励质疑一切的行业。我完全认为这是正确的做法。

Sure. And perhaps before even before I answer that, I think it's right to be skeptical. Mhmm. We come from an industry where we are encouraged to challenge everything. And I I completely think that's the correct approach to take.

这也是为什么我比原本可能的情况要穷得多。如果我当初不那么怀疑，我本可以更早买入更多比特币。是的，但我没有。我误解了它，现在必须承担后果。

And it's the reason that I'm much less rich than I might otherwise be. If I was less skeptical, would have bought a lot more Bitcoin early on. Yeah. I didn't. I I misunderstood it, and I have to live with the consequences now.

但我完全同意，也许我们可以深入探讨一下。

But so I I completely agree, and maybe we'll dig in a little.

我认为我们应该深入探讨，因为当我观察这些持有比特币的上市公司时，我几乎将它们分为不同策略。我认为Meta Planet由于其管辖权和运营时间长度会成功。我猜想Adam自己的财务公司也会成功。Jack在21公司做的事情也很可能成功。我把这些归功于它们起步时的庞大规模。

I think we should because one of the the when I look at the treasury companies, I almost separate strategy. I think Meta Planet because of its jurisdiction and the length it's been running. And I think there'll be a few others in terms of, I assume, what Adam is gonna do with his own treasury company is gonna be successful. I think what Jack's doing at 21 is likely to be. And those ones I put down to just the sheer size of them to starting out.

我认为还有很多公司把比特币视为失败企业的救命稻草。嗯。对这些公司我极其怀疑。我不知道它们将如何度过任何熊市。也许值得听听你对整个市场的看法。

I think there's then a lot of also rams that see Bitcoin as kind of a get out of jail free card for a failing company. Mhmm. And they're the ones that I'm incredibly skeptical of. I don't know how they're gonna weather any kind of bear market. Maybe it's worth getting your opinion on just like the entire market here.

好的。

Okay.

回顾几个月甚至几年前，我最初对Michael Saylor大量购买比特币有些疑虑。嗯。尤其是如果你把它推向极端，如果Saylor持有所有比特币，那就完全没有意义了。没有人会把它当作货币使用，没有人会用它支付。

Stepping back a few months and possibly even years, I I originally had slight misgivings around Michael Saylor buying all the Bitcoin. Mhmm. Not least because if you take it to an absurd extent, if Saylor holds all of the Bitcoin, then it's completely pointless. No one will be using it as money. No one will be paying with it.

没有人会进行自我托管。我认为这三件事对比特币都至关重要，如果没有这些，那到底还有什么意义？我想说让我们少买点，给其他人留一些。但同时，我认为他所做的事情在打开一个巨大可寻址市场的大门方面至关重要。嗯。

No one will be self custodying it. And all of those three things I think are fundamentally important to Bitcoin So on its with without those, what on earth is the point? I would like to say let's stop buying so much and leave some for the rest of us. But at the same time, I think what he's done is crucially important in opening the gates to a gigantic total addressable market. Mhmm.

所以，这里再次体现了我西装革履的本性与我比特币本性的冲突。我非常坚定地坚持自我托管原则，但我也承认对某些人来说，托管要么困难要么不可能。无论你是想通过购买ETF获得税收优惠的比特币敞口，你知道，那没问题。我是一个自由市场资本主义者。

So and again, here here's the conflict between my suit coin in nature and my Bitcoin in nature. I very strongly adhere to the principles of of self custody, but I also concede that for some people, custody is either difficult or impossible. Whether you are talking about someone who wants to get, you know, tax favored exposure to Bitcoin through buying an ETF. And, you know, that's fine. I'm a I'm a free market capitalist.

我认为你应该自由地以任何你认为合适的方式部署你的资金。或者如果你是某个人，你知道，也许你是一个不懂如何使用手机的老年人。所以，你知道，祝你好运使用冷钱包。尽管它们是非常出色的产品。所以有一个资本池，肯定对比特币敞口不足。

I believe that you should be free to deploy your money however you see fit. Or if you're someone, you know, maybe you're an elderly person who doesn't understand how to use their phone. So, you know, good luck using a cold card. Brilliant products that they are. So there's there's one pool of capital, which is definitely underexposed to Bitcoin.

我认为其次，一旦你达到了我们策略的规模，你就能吸引更多行业参与者的关注，这将为行业带来更多资本。我们不需要重述Saylor到底在做什么，但那完全就是他在做的事情。是的。他正在利用股权资本市场、债务资本市场，这些都是巨大的资本池。有趣的是，其中一些资本池实际上就是所谓的授权资本。

And I think secondly, once you have achieved the size of our strategy, then you are able to attract more attention from other industry players, which will bring more capital into the industry. And we don't need to to rehash exactly what Saylor is doing, but that is completely what he's doing. Yes. He's tapping into the equity capital markets, the debt capital markets, and those are gigantic pools of capital. Interestingly as well, some of those pools of capital are effectively what's called mandated capital.

换句话说，他们将管理根据风险委员会、投资委员会等确定的特定规则进行投资的资本池或财富基金。其中许多根本无法持有自我托管的比特币。再次，这就是一些冲突产生的地方。如果我相信所有投资者都应该获得比特币和比特币行业的敞口，那么这些授权资本池也应该获得。

So in other words, they will be running pools of capital or wealth funds that are invested according to certain rules that are determined by their risk committee, by their investment committee, and so on. And many of those will simply be unable to hold self custody Bitcoin. And, again, this is where some of the conflict arises. If I believe that all investors deserve exposure to to Bitcoin and to the Bitcoin industry, then those mandated pools of capital also deserve that.

我同意。

I agree.

我认为值得，也许在我们进一步深入之前，值得关注我们认为未被充分解决的一个商业角度。我们已经解释过，我们认为目前尚未获得比特币敞口的资本池总量可能还没有得到它。

And I think it's worth maybe maybe before we drill on even further, it's it's worth focusing on, I think, one of the business angles that we we believe is is under addressed. So we've we've already already explained that we think that the the total of pool of capital at once exposure to Bitcoin probably doesn't have it yet.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以从投资者的角度来看，你谈论的是一个总可寻址市场，它可能从现在的位置呈曲棍球杆式增长。用一些数字来说明。比特币目前的总市值大约为2万亿美元。我们谈论的是总财富池规模达数百兆美元。所以对比特币的敞口非常小。

So from an investor perspective, you're talking about a total addressable market that that could hockey stick up from where we are at the moment. Just putting some numbers on that. Total market cap of Bitcoin is roughly 2,000,000,000,000 at the moment. We are talking about a total pool of wealth that is in the hundreds of trillions. So the amount of exposure to Bitcoin is tiny.

纯粹从数字来看，在美国，我们认为可能有5000万人持有比特币。在英国，可能有700万人。

In pure number terms, in America, we think maybe 50,000,000 people hold it. In The UK, maybe 7,000,000.

而且我认为这些数字真的很高。

And I think those numbers are really high.

是的。我同意。

Yeah. I agree.

我不认为有那么高。

I don't think it's that high.

而且这些数字可能包括了那些，你知道，在Satoshi钱包里有人给他们发送了100聪的人。所以投资论点非常简单，无论你谈论的是比特币还是比特币储备公司都适用。有大量资本存在，对比特币的配置不足。这是第一点。第二点是，我们喜欢这样思考——当然在b huddle，我们喜欢思考比特币行业的三个方面。

And it could those could include people who've, you know, got a 100 Satoshis that someone sent them in a wallet of Satoshi. So the investment investment thesis there is very simple, And this applies whether you're talking about Bitcoin or Bitcoin treasury company. Lots and lots of capital out there, under allocated to Bitcoin. That's the first point. And the second point is we like to think of certainly at the at b huddle, we like to think of sort of the three aspects of the Bitcoin industry.

首先是比特币本身作为一种资产。其次，我们有这个网络。它既是这两者，又不止于此。它还是一个围绕该资产的投资、使用和托管而发展起来的商业生态系统。嗯。

First is Bitcoin itself as an asset. And then second, we have the the network. It's both of those things and more. It's also an ecosystem of businesses that are growing up around exposure to use of custody of that asset. Mhmm.

这包括像Debify或Anchor Watch这样的企业，它们提供借贷或保险产品等等。而在网络方面，所有的支付技术企业、闪电网络实施方案、迷你比特以及我们看到的电子现金发展。所有的软件开发和硬件开发，实际上包括销售点设备和储值卡。还有一个巨大的支付技术板块。我们相信这三个方面在一个飞轮系统中会进一步相互促进和发展。这三者都很重要，我们的目标是位于我们所认为的比特币行业这三个不同支柱的中心。

And that includes, you know, businesses like like Debify or like Anchor Watch, you know, which are offering lending or insurance products and so on. And then in terms of the network, all of the Paytech businesses, the Lightning implementations, mini bits, and the the e cash developments that we're seeing, All of the software development and hardware development, actually, in terms of point of sale devices and bulk cards. There's a huge a huge pay tech piece as well. And each of those three, we believe, again, in a Flywheel system are further, I suppose, building out and growing each of the others. They're all the all three of those are important, and we aim to sit at the epicenter of those three different pillars of what we see as the Bitcoin industry.

所以当你观察这个时，很多涌现的财资公司实际上并没有真正的商业模式。这不是在贬低Meta Planet，但酒店的这部分业务并不重要。

So when you when you're looking at this, like, a lot of the treasury companies that are popping up don't actually really have a business model. Like, this is no shade on Meta Planet, but the hotel part of the business doesn't matter.

你没住过Meta Planet的酒店？我没有。一天都没住过。

You haven't stayed in a Meta Planet hotel? I have not. Not in one day.

我想是的。当谈到战略时，这部分业务已经变得非常微不足道。有些公司基本上什么都没有。你们会有实际的业务吗？

I think so. Yeah. And when it comes to, like, strategy, again, like, that has become a very insignificant portion of the business. Some of these, like, flat out really don't have anything. Are you gonna have an actual business?

实际业务首先是收购，其次是闪电网络的部署。

The actual business is going to be the firstly, the acquisition, and then secondly, the deployment of Lightning.

那么值得解释一下闪电网络的部署是如何运作的。当然。

So tell it's worth explaining how that deployment of Lightning works. Sure.

是的。是的。我非常高兴。所以，如果之前没有人运行过闪电网络节点，基本原理是你从基础层进行锚定输入和锚定输出。我的意思是，你对此也很了解，甚至可能比我更清楚。

Yeah. Yeah. I'm very happy. So in if if no one's ever run a Lightning node before, the basic principle is that you you peg in and peg out from the base layer. I mean, you know this as well, if not better than I do.

所以你需要一笔初始交易来开通通道。一旦你的通道开通后，你的节点就会连接到闪电网络中的其他参与者，几乎像一个网状结构。所以这不是一对一的对应关系，而是一个真正的网络。你从中获得收益的方式是，你可以根据锁定在该通道中的比特币金额按比例收取路由费用。

So you have a an initial transaction to open the channel. And then once your once your channel is opened, your node then connects to other participants in the Lightning Network, almost like a mesh. So it's not it's not a one to one correspondence. It's literally a network. And the way that you derive revenue from from using that is you you are able to charge as a routing fee a proportion of the amount of Bitcoin you have locked in that channel.

因此，我们第一天就从Coin Corner租赁了一个排名前100的闪电网络节点。嗯。在滚动租赁期间，这个节点将由Beehoddle拥有、管理和运行。需要注意的是，排名非常重要。排名基于节点的运行时间和容量。

So we are leasing a top 100 rated lightning node on day one from Coin Corner. Mhmm. And that will be owned, managed, and run for the period of that of that rolling lease by Beehoddle. And it's important to note that the ranking is very important. Ranking is based on both age of the known and also capacity.

所以我们第一天获取的节点将是全球声誉最佳的路由和安全支付节点之一。我们一开始就打算认真做下去。我们相信支付技术对比特币的成功至关重要，而且这恰好是一种可以从第一天起就合法收取比特币收益的方式，通过获取比特币资产本身就能立即为公司带来收入。嗯。简而言之，这就是商业模式。

So the one that we're acquiring from day one is going to be one of the nodes with the best reputation globally for for routing and secure payments. And we're really starting as we mean to go on. We believe that Paytech is integral to the the success of Bitcoin, and it happens to be a way that you can legitimately charge revenue in Bitcoin from day one and immediately derive income into the company simply from the acquisition of the asset bitcoin itself. Mhmm. So that in a nutshell, that is that is the that is the business model.

最后也许用百分比来说，路由费用将在约9.7%左右浮动。

And then maybe to finish off in percentage terms, the routing fees will range between between one sort of 9.7%.

所以这对我来说是最有趣的部分，我想如果可以的话深入探讨一下。我的意思是，我不到之前还在和Alan Farrington交谈，这就是收益实际来源的地方。

So that's the that's the interesting part to me that I wanna try and dig into a little if we can. I mean, I was talking to Alan Farrington probably less than that, and this is where the yield actually comes from.

是的。是的。就是这样。这就是决策的答案。

Yes. Yes. It is. That's the answer to the decision.

但当你提到这个范围是从1%到9%时——我想你是这么说的——我认为你说的那些数字，我很确定Block公司曾公开表示他们的闪电网络节点获得了9%的收益。据我理解（可能我错了），他们能获得如此高收益的原因是他们实质上为所有从Cash App发送交易的用户设置了费用。我知道River公司发布过一份报告，他们运营着一个非常大的闪电网络节点，我记得他们说收益大约在1.5%左右。

But when you say that the range goes from, I think you said, 1% to nine, I think those figures that you're talking about is I'm pretty sure Block came out and said they were getting 9% on their Lightning node. From what I understand, I could be wrong. The reason they get such high numbers is because they essentially set the fees for anyone sending transactions from Cash App. I know River have come out with a report they run a really large Lightning node. I think they said they get about one and a half percent.

那么，你觉得你们能在这个范围内处于什么位置？

So, like, where do you think you can sit on that?

我们的目标是达到大约2%到2.5%的范围。

We would be looking to hit a range of about two to two and a half.

好的。这看起来是可以实现的。

Okay. That seems achievable.

是的，我们希望如此。嗯。而且要记住，这也是一个飞轮效应。所以你获得的比特币越多，我们就能向闪电网络部署更多资金。

Yeah. We hope so. Mhmm. And remember that this is a flywheel as well. So the more Bitcoin you acquire, the more we will be able to deploy to Lightning.

同时，这会形成一个良性循环，因为你的节点基础设施越可靠，失败的支付就越少。理想情况下，就会有更多人基于闪电网络进行开发。这支持了我之前提到的第三个支柱，即商业生态系统。所以你的支付技术网络越可靠，就会有越多人寻求创办公司和启动支付处理业务等。

And at the same time, it becomes a virtuous circle because the more reliable your node infrastructure is, the fewer failed payments there are. And ideally, the more people will build on on the Lightning Network. And that supports the third piece of the stool that I spoke of before, which is the ecosystem of businesses. So the more reliable your pay tech network, the more people will be looking to to start companies and to launch payment processing businesses Mhmm. Etcetera, etcetera.

然后这三个支柱开始相互支持。

And then each of the three limbs begin to support each other.

好的，这很合理。所以在商业模式方面，运营闪电网络节点是其中一部分。路线图中还有其他可以透露的内容吗？

Okay. That makes sense. So we've got on the business model, there's running a Lightning node as one part of it. Is there anything else in the the road map that you can talk about yet?

路线图中还有其他内容，但我目前还不能讨论这些。不过我们还在探索至少两到三个不同的商业机会。这些信息会在适当的时候公开。

There are other things in the roadmap, but I'm not able to talk about those at the moment. Okay. But there are two, if not three different business opportunities we're also exploring. But this this will become public in in due course.

好的，等你能说的时候一定要告诉我

Okay. Well, you have to let me know when you can

讨论这件事并

talk about it and come

回到节目中来。那么你认为——再次回到我对财政公司持怀疑态度这一点——我怀疑的是那种只是简单复制粘贴但在不同司法管辖区的财政公司，我觉得这并不有趣。因为如果你在英国想要投资财政公司，你仍然可以购买策略股。你在英国并不影响这一点。但是像这些新颖的商业模式，确实让它变得有趣。

back on the show. So what do you think will again, when I when I come back to the fact that I'm skeptical on treasury companies, one of the things that I am skeptical about is the idea of a treasury company that's just copy paste, but in a different jurisdiction to me is not that interesting. Because if you're in The UK and you want exposure to a treasury company, you can still buy strategy. It doesn't matter that you're in The UK. But, like, with these new kind of novel business models, I think that does make it interesting.

那么，你们的差异化优势是什么？

So, like, what is your differentiator?

我想我们已经在一定程度上讨论过这一点，也许我再补充一点。你之前提到很多这类公司看起来像是僵尸公司或失败企业，把比特币当作最后一搏。我们完全不是这种情况。我们实际上是一家全新的公司，从第一天起就有着清晰的商业计划和干净的资产负债表，而且我们非常专注于比特币。

I think we've spoken about it to an extent and maybe add I'd add one more. So you mentioned earlier that a lot of these companies seem like zombie companies or failing companies that saw Bitcoin as a Hail Mary pass. We're actually not that at all. We are, in fact, definitively a new company that is starting from day one with a clean business plan and a clean balance sheet. And our focus is very much on Bitcoin.

我还没有和团队讨论过这个想法，但不知道你是否了解雅典娜诞生的神话。不知道。好吧，雅典娜是从宙斯的头颅中完全成型地诞生的。好的。

I haven't aired this with the team so far, but I don't know if you know the myth of Athena's birth. No. I don't. So well, Athena sprang fully formed from the head of Zeus. Okay.

宙斯曾与她的母亲墨提斯有过一段恋情，墨提斯是智慧女神。他试图...墨提斯是个变形者，宙斯吞下了她。在她变成苍蝇之后，以为摆脱了她。然后宙斯头痛欲裂，普罗米修斯用斧头劈开了他的头。显然，宙斯是不朽的，所以可能会受伤但不会死。

As Zeus had had had an affair with her mother, Metis, who was the goddess of wisdom. And he tried he Metis was a shapeshifter, and Zeus swallowed her. And then after she turned into a fly, thought he he got rid of her. And then Zeus had an absolutely terrible headache, and Prometheus split his head open with an axe. Obviously, Zeus was an immortal, so might have hurt him but didn't kill him.

然后雅典娜，智慧与战争女神，从宙斯的头颅中完全成型地诞生。在这个背景下，我们的目标是从第一天起就作为一个完全成型的比特币业务进入市场，拥有专注于比特币的商业模式，以及纯粹专注于比特币和比特币行业的增长与发展计划。所以对我来说这是一个关键的差异化优势。

And then Athena, goddess of wisdom and war springs fully formed from the head of Zeus. So in that context, we're aiming to enter the market fully formed as a Bitcoin business from day one with a business model that's focused on Bitcoin and growth and development plans that are focused purely on Bitcoin and the Bitcoin industry. So that for me is a key differentiator.

我喜欢这个类比。那么说到这些公司的长期生存能力，我脑子里一直有个想法，可能被证明是错误的，如果是那样也很好，那就是我们会看到这些财政部公司涌现，大量吸纳比特币，然后根据他们的债务条款等因素，最终不得不在熊市中吐出这些比特币。我不知道这会如何发展，但我能看到一种情景，如果它不导致下一次熊市，它肯定会加剧下一次熊市。你是怎么考虑这个问题的？

I love that analogy. So when it comes down to, like, the long term viability of these companies, again, an idea I've had in my head for a long time, which may be proven to be wrong, and that's great if it is, is that we're gonna have these treasuries companies crop up, hoover up Bitcoin, and then depending on things like the terms on their debt, they're gonna end up having to spit that out in a bear market. And and I don't know how I don't know how it'll play out, but I could see a scenario where if it doesn't cause the next bear market, it certainly exacerbates the next bear market. So how are you thinking about that?

这是个绝妙的问题。这实际上可能也是我对比特币财政部公司的主要担忧。正因为如此，我和团队都对此高度关注。也许回顾一下我之前的职业生涯，我提到过预包装破产。预包装破产管理是指公司实际上已经破产，进行破产管理，然后进行重组，债务要么被偿还要么被再融资等等。

That's a brilliant question. And that actually is my probably my key worry about Bitcoin treasury companies as well. And I think because of that, it's something that I am laser focused on and the team is laser focused on. So maybe backtracking to some of my previous career, I mentioned the the the prepack. So a prepack admin is when a company's effectively become insolvent conduct administration and it's it it is then restructured and it's you know, it's debts are either repaid or refinanced and so on.

我花了很长时间作为重组和破产律师。所以我见过不良债务和管理不善对公司造成的严重影响。嗯。以及这些事情如何很容易导致破产。在比特币世界，我仍然非常清楚2022年发生的事情。我认为Luna Foundation Guard以及该组织比特币的情况对我们所有参与这个领域的人来说都是一个很好的警示故事。

So I spent a lot of time as a restructuring and insolvency lawyer. So I've seen how bad debts poorly managed can be for a company Mhmm. And how these things can very easily precipitate insolvency. In the Bitcoin world, I'm still very alive to what happened in 2022. And I think the Lunar Foundation Guard and what happened with that with that organization's Bitcoin is a good cautionary tale for all of us involved in this space.

你会记得LFG积累了，天知道有多少比特币。

You'll remember that LFG accumulated, I mean, God knows how many Bitcoin.

是的。我记不清了。

Yeah. It was I can't remember.

那是个巨大的数额。是的。然后他们进行了清仓甩卖，嗯。他们试图维持挂钩汇率。我认为这是该行业的一个关键风险。

It was a huge amount. Yeah. And then they there was a fire sale Mhmm. As they tried to maintain the peg. And that I think is a key risk for the sector.

你知道，如果你进入市场低迷期并成为被迫卖家，那就会产生雪球效应。说实话，这对任何资产都是一样的。是的。如果卖出压力大于买入压力，价格下跌就很简单。这不是什么复杂的数学。

You know, if you enter a market downturn and you become a forced seller, then that snowballs. And to be honest, that's the same for any asset. Yep. If there's more selling pressure than buying pressure, the price drops is very simple. It's not not hard math.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以

So

如果你有任何形式的杠杆，到了某个时候，就不是你想不想卖的问题，而是你必须卖。

And if you have any form of leverage at some point, it's not whether you wanna sell, you have to sell.

完全正确。所以值得提前说明这一点，我们进入市场时不使用杠杆。我们完全通过股权融资筹集资金，是的，这会稀释股权，但同时也能让我们收购更多比特币。我们拥有的比特币越多，我们就越能部署等等。这样我们就创造了良性循环。

Exactly. And so worth addressing that point upfront, we are entering the market with no leverage. We are purely raising funds through equity finance, yes, is dilutive, but at the same time, it enables us to acquire more Bitcoin. And so the more more Bitcoin we have, the more we will be able to deploy and and so on. And so we we create the virtuous circle.

其次，关于成为被迫卖家的问题，由于团队对下行风险高度警惕，而且我应该提到，即将加入我们董事会的Coincorner团队，他们拥有经历至少两轮、甚至三轮熊市的经验。

Secondly, in terms of becoming a forced seller, because the team is so acutely focused on downside risk, And I should mention that the Coincorner guys, the ones who are joining our board, they have got experience of weathering two, if not three, bear markets.

是的。对于不了解Coincorner的听众来说，他们可能是英国最好的交易所，团队非常扎实，已经运营了很长时间。

Yeah. For anyone who's not list who's listening who doesn't know who Coincorner are, they're probably the best exchange in The UK, really solid team, been going for a long time.

完全同意。这正是TLDR的主要原因。是的，是的。我认为这个团队的质量是无与伦比的。

Completely agree with that. That's the that's the principle reason for The TLDR. Yeah. Yeah. The quality of the team, think, is unmatched.

是的。我非常想了解的一点是，他们自2014年创立以来，是如何成功引导业务度过至少两轮、甚至三轮熊市的。我认为他们对此极为专注。

Yeah. And one of the things I was very keen to understand was how they had managed to steer their business through two, if not three, bear markets since they first launched. Yeah. 2014, I think they they kicked off. And so they are super focused on that.

我也是。对我来说绝对的红线是成为BeeHoddle比特币的被迫卖家，在买方市场中出售。我绝对不希望这种情况发生。避免这种情况有两种简单的方法。

So am I. The absolutely the absolute red line for me is becoming a forced seller of BeeHoddle's Bitcoin into a seller into effectively a buyer's market. I I don't want that to happen. Yeah. And there are two ways of avoiding that, being very simplistic about it.

一是非常谨慎地控制债务规模，嗯，以及你是否有能力偿还债务。所以在某种程度上，债务多少并不重要，只要你有足够的自由现金流来偿还。在我多次的重组工作中，经常看到人们在利率低时借入过多债务，以为利率会永远保持低位。然后突然需要再融资时，利率变成了7.5%而不是5%。

One is being very careful about the amount of debt you take on Mhmm. And whether you can service that debt. So in some ways, it doesn't matter how much debt you have as long as you have sufficient free cash flow to service that debt. Time and time again in my restructuring work, you would see people taking on too much debt when interest rates are low and thinking they were going to remain low forever. And then suddenly when you come to refinance, you have to refinance at 7.5% rather than at five.

这时你业务产生的自由现金流就不再足以支付债务利息或偿还债务。到了这个阶段，你就开始陷入困境了。基于我作为重组和破产律师的所有经验，这是我高度警惕的事情。所以团队决定重点关注这一点，特别要称赞Dave为此建立的模型，初始融资后我们将保留足够运营四年的营运资金，即使比特币价格再次下跌50%到80%——我个人认为以当前市场状况这不太可能，但你知道，我们都曾判断错误过。

And the free cash flow generated by your business is no longer sufficient to pay the coupon on that debt or to or to, you know, or or to to pay your to pay your interest. At that point, that's when you begin to get into trouble. So drawing on all of my experiences of restructuring and insolvency lawyer, this is something that I'm acutely cautious of. So the way that the team have decided to to focus on that and, you know, credit to Dave in particular for modeling this, The initial raise willing we will hold back sufficient working capital to fund four years worth of operations, which should take us even if we do have another 50 to 80% downturn of the Bitcoin price, which I I personally think is unlikely given the current state of the market. But, you know, we've all been wrong before.

是的。我不知道。这是那种我觉得不会发生，但如果真的发生了我也不会惊讶的事情。没错。即使我认为可能不会发生，我最多也就60%的把握。

Yeah. I don't know. It's one of those things where I don't think it's gonna happen, but I would not be shocked if it did happen. Exactly. If and even though I don't think it might happen, I'm like 60% at most.

所以如果真的出现那种下跌，你是说唯一的问题在于是否有债务。我理解如果没有杠杆，你就不需要卖出。但你打算在某个时候用这些比特币加杠杆吗？

So if it if you do go into that drawdown, you're saying, like, the only issue is if you have debt. Well, I understand that if you've got no leverage, you have no need to sell. But are you planning on taking leverage against that Bitcoin at some point?

最初不会。好的。而且这样的决定需要董事会来做，我们只会在符合公司和股东最佳利益的情况下做出这个决定。嗯。所以我们作为董事会成员和CEO的职责是最大化股东价值，这绝对是首要任务。

Not initially. Okay. And any such decision would be one for the board to do, and we would only take that decision provided that it was in the best interests of both the company and our shareholders at the time. Mhmm. So our focus as board members and minus CEO is on maximizing value for shareholders, and that is that is absolutely primary.

所以最初，我们将从无杠杆开始。正如我所说，我们会从第一轮融资中保留足够的运营资金，确保我们能够运营四年而完全不需要产生任何收入。

So initially, we will begin with with no leverage. And as I say, we will retain sufficient working capital from that first raise to make sure that we can run for for four years without actually having to generate any income at all.

你们融资获得的比特币中有多少百分比需要，比如说，留作运营资金？

What percentage of the Bitcoin you're raising has to be, say, like, put to one side for working capital?

在这次访谈中我不能给出确切百分比，但我可以说初始融资的绝大部分将立即用于购买比特币。然后我们希望通过后续融资继续尽可能积极地积累比特币。所以计划是通过筹集更多资金来堆叠更多比特币，但是

I can't put an exact percentage on it for the purposes of this interview, but I can say the vast majority of the initial raise will be deployed immediately into Bitcoin purchases. And then we want to continue accumulating Bitcoin from further raises as aggressively as we possibly can. So the plan is to to raise more money through to stack more Bitcoin, but

你们不会通过借贷来堆叠更多比特币吗？

you're not gonna take on debt to stack more Bitcoin?

最初不是。不。就像我说的，除非董事会认定这样做符合公司和股东的最佳利益。是的。我认为值得回顾一下我们之前提到的关于战略的内容。

Not initially. No. And like I said, unless the board determine that it's in the best interest of the company and shareholders to do so. Yeah. And I think it's worth backtracking to something we said about strategy.

在达到一定规模之前你无法做到这一点。是的。而且在你接触到我们之前谈到的那些庞大的机构资本池之前也不行。

You can't do that until you hit a certain size. Yeah. And until you have exposure to those vast pools of institutional capital that we talked about as well.

比特币正在疯狂上涨，在每一次牛市中，总会涌现出一波新的投资者，随之而来的是大量新公司、新产品和新承诺。但如果你在这个领域待得够久，你就会知道很多这样的故事是如何收场的。有些公司走捷径，拿你的钱冒险，或者干脆消失。这就是为什么在购买比特币时，我唯一推荐的交易所是River。他们深切关心为客户做正确的事，并以安全性和透明度为核心，旨在长久发展。

Bitcoin is absolutely ripping, and in every bull market, there's always a new wave of investors, and with it, a flood of new companies, new products, and new promises. But if you've been around long enough, you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them. Some cut corners, take risk with your money, or just disappear. That's why when it comes to buying Bitcoin, the only exchange I recommend is River. They deeply care about doing things right for their clients and are built to last with security and transparency at their core.

使用River，你可以放心，因为他们所有的比特币都采用多签冷存储保管，并且是美国唯一提供储备证明的纯比特币交易所。确实没有比这更好的购买比特币的地方了。所以今天就去river.com/wbd开户，购买时最多可获得100美元的比特币奖励。网址是river.com/wbd。如果你能在降低税单的同时囤积比特币呢？

With River, you have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin is held in multisig cold storage, and it's the only Bitcoin only exchange in The US with proof of reserves. There really is no better place to buy Bitcoin. So to open an account today, head over to river.com/wbd, and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy. That's river.com/wbd. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

嗯，通过使用Blockware挖矿比特币，你就可以做到。来自那个庞大而美好的法案的新税收指南允许美国矿工在一个纳税年度内全额扣除挖矿硬件成本。没错，100%的扣除。如果你有10万美元的资本收益或收入，你可以购买10万美元的矿机并完全抵消它。

Well, by mining Bitcoin with Blockware, you can. New tax guidelines from the big beautiful bill allow American miners to write off a 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year. That's right. A 100% write off. If you have a 100 k in capital gains or income, you can purchase a 100 k of miners and offset it entirely.

Blockware的挖矿即服务让你现在就可以开始挖比特币，无需亲自动手。Blockware处理一切，从确保矿机安全到采购低成本电力，再到配置矿池，他们全包了。你每天都可以以折扣价囤积比特币，同时在报税季节还能省下一大笔钱。今天就前往mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd开始吧。每购买一台托管矿机，你将获得一周免费的托管和电力。

Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining Bitcoin right now without lifting a finger. Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low cost power to configuring the mining pool, they do it all. You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season. Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd. And for every hosted miner purchased, you get one week of free hosting and electricity.

当然，这些都不是税务建议。请与Blockware联系以了解更多信息，网址是mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd。本集节目由巨头Iron赞助，他们是纳斯达克上市的最大比特币矿工，使用100%可再生能源。Iron不仅为比特币网络提供动力，他们还为人工智能提供尖端计算资源，所有这些都得到可再生能源的支持。我们与创始人Dan和Will合作已有一段时间，对他们的价值观印象深刻，特别是他们对当地社区和可持续计算能力的承诺。

Of course, none of this is tax advice. Speak with Block ware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd. This episode is brought to you by the massive legends, Iron, the largest Nasdaq listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy. Iron are not just powering the Bitcoin network, they're also providing cutting edge computing resources for AI, all backed by renewable energy. We've been working with our founders, Dan and Will, for quite some time now and have been really impressed with their values, especially their commitment to local communities and sustainable computing power.

所以无论您是对比特币挖矿感兴趣还是想利用AI计算能力，Iron都在树立行业标准。请访问iron.com了解更多信息，也就是iren.com。关于国库公司，我的另一个重要问题是：仅仅通过出售股权来购买比特币这种策略还能保持多久的吸引力？因为我们看到策略已经出台，他们已经完成了所有这些优先股的发行。

So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power, Iron is setting the standard. Visit iron.com to learn more, which is iren.com. So that would be another one of the big questions I have around treasury companies is how long does just selling equity to buy Bitcoin remain interesting? Because we've seen strategy come out. And they've done all these preferreds.

而且我认为其中一些产品确实很有意思。我认为它们将推动巨大需求。但问题是，纯粹通过出售股权来购买比特币的市场是否还存在？

And that that like, I think some of those products are really interesting. I think they're gonna drive massive demand. Like, is there still a market for just purely selling equity to buy Bitcoin?

可能还存在。但我也要反驳说，我们做的远不止这些。我们出售股权购买比特币，是为了使用这些比特币。是的。所以我认为可以从比特币行业的角度来理解我们真正想要实现的目标。

Potentially. But I'd also counter that by saying that we're doing more than that. We're selling equity to buy Bitcoin to use the Bitcoin. Yep. So I think I triangulate that in terms of bee huddle for what we're actually trying to do in terms of the Bitcoin industry.

嗯。我们营销资料的第一页几乎就明确说明了，我们想要成为一家比特币基础设施和服务公司。所以对我们来说，这仅仅是个开始。我提到的一些额外业务线，是我们未来几年将积极探索的，实际上具有双重使命：在保持成本和支出低廉的同时，绝对最大化业务的其它收入来源。再次值得指出的是您提到的僵尸公司的例子。

Mhmm. And the first pretty much the first page of our of our marketing deck sets out that, you know, we want to be a Bitcoin infrastructure and services company. So this for us, this is just the beginning. And some of those additional business lines that I talked about are things that we're actively going to explore over the next few years with a dual mandate really of keeping costs and expenses low while absolutely maximizing the amount of other income that comes in to the business. And again, worth flagging the the example you gave, the zombie companies.

我们非常不希望成为僵尸公司，而且我们也不可能成为僵尸公司，因为我们刚刚成立。嗯。我们希望成为比特币行业不可或缺的一部分，可能在全球范围内，但肯定是在英国。如果您不介意的话，也许值得让我谈谈我热衷的一个话题。我之前说过，我参加过很多议会活动和游说活动，这些场合都挤满了山寨币玩家。

We very much don't want to be a zombie company and we can't be because we're brand new. Mhmm. And we want to be an integral part of the Bitcoin industry, potentially globally, but definitely in The United Kingdom. And maybe worth getting on one of my hobby horses, if you don't mind. I've said before, I've been to a lot of events in in parliament and lobbying and so on where they are full to the brim of shitcoiners.

是的。还有那些Web3人士，他们用风投资金创建公司和产品，这些产品没有产品市场契合度，很可能永远不会有可寻址市场，更不用说总体可寻址市场了。然而他们却制造了很多噪音。我常常觉得比特币就像一只800磅重的大猩猩坐在角落里，而这些小狨猴四处乱窜，而大猩猩却坐在那里无所作为。我希望它能站起来开始捶胸，创建像我们这样的公司。

Yep. And web three people who are creating companies and products backed by VC money, products that have no product market fit, for which there will likely never be an addressable market, let alone a total addressable market. And yet they are making a lot of noise. And I've often felt as though Bitcoin is this like 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner while all of these tiny little marmosets are scurrying around and the gorilla is just sitting there doing nothing. I want him to get up and start beating his chest and creating a company like this.

随着我们期望的规模增长，我们不仅希望参与这场对话，更希望成为英国比特币行业中不可或缺的参与者——我们认为这个市场被严重低估了。

Growing up the scale that we hope to grow, we want to be a part not just of that conversation, but also in part of being an integral player in the Bitcoin industry in The UK, which we think is aggressively underserved.

我完全同意。我们刚才还在讨论这个。美国有那么多产品在英国买不到，我在澳大利亚也一样，这太令人震惊了。那里有巨大的创新空间，但问题就在于法规和法律成了障碍。那你还会继续做现在的政策工作吗？

And I I mean, I totally agree. We were talking about this just before. Like, the number of products they have in The US that you can't get access to in The UK, and the same in Australia where I live, is shocking. There's so much there's so much space for people to innovate there, but the problem is just the regulations and the law gets in the way. So are you still going to be doing the policy work that you're doing now?

是的，我会继续。我觉得值得深入探讨一下。我刚刚在里加参加了一个关于比特币与国家的专题讨论。这又回到了那个西装革履的困境，对吧？就是那个西装的问题。

Yes, I will. So I think worth delving into that a little bit. I was just on a panel here in Riga talking about Bitcoin and state. And again, it's the it's the suit corner dilemma, isn't it? The suit.

没错。我们中有些人认为与政客打交道毫无意义。但我在台上提出的一个观点是，如果你不与他们接触，他们只会制定出糟糕的法律。嗯。我们必须尽一切努力确保他们不可避免地要制定的法律。

Exactly. Some of us some some of us think there's no point in engaging with politicians. But one of the points I made on stage is that if you don't engage with politicians, they just mean bad laws. Mhmm. And we need to do everything in our power to make sure that they're inevitably going to make laws.

既然如此，就让这些法律尽可能完善。除非我们为自己发声、制造声势，否则它们不会变好。所以在政策工作方面，我们希望能将部分筹集的资金用于倡导活动，无论是通过BP UK还是其他方式。为此，为了保持完全客观，我已经退出了BP UK的董事会。所以我不再参与公司的运营决策。

If that's the case, let them be as good as they possibly can be. And unless we stand up for ourselves and make noise, they won't be. So in terms of policy work, we are hoping to also deploy some some of some of the funds raised towards advocacy efforts, whether those are via BP UK or otherwise. And as part of that, in order to remain completely objective, I've stepped off the board of BP UK. So I will no longer take operational decisions at the company.

我仍然会以更类似研究员的方式为他们撰写政策文件，可能更接近BPI的运作方式。是的。但当前的管理团队将负责运营决策，而我理想情况下仍会去议会与监管机构、英国税务海关总署、财政部等进行谈判。我已经与Vazy勋爵建立了直接沟通渠道，他是新成立的加密货币和数字资产全党议会小组的联合主席。

I will still write policy papers for them on a more fellowship basis, perhaps more akin to the way that BPI function. Yeah. But the the current management team will will take operational decisions, And I'll still be ideally going to to parliament and negotiating with regulators, with HMRC, treasury, and so on. I already have a line of direct communication with Lord Vazy, who is co chair of the new cryptocurrency and digital assets all party parliamentary group.

看，我对此一无所知。这是什么？

See, I know nothing about this. What is this?

哦，你还记得几年前来爱丁堡的Lisa Cameron吗？

Oh, do you remember Lisa Cameron who came to Edinburgh a few years back?

不，我没有。我没去爱丁堡。

No. I don't. I didn't go to Edinburgh.

哦，好的。在英国，我们有各种不同的跨党派议会团体，汇集了来自双方的法律专家和议员，讨论重要议题，有效推动这些议题在议会和决策中的进展。丽莎·卡梅伦曾是APBG的主席。我以前常参加，并在那里作证过几次。瓦伊西勋爵最近重新组建了这个团体。

Oh, okay. So in The UK, we have various different all party parliamentary groups which bring together laws and MPs from both sides of the table to talk about important issues, effectively push for those issues in in parliament and decision making. So Lisa Cameron was chair of the APBG. I used to attend and I've given evidence a couple of times there. Lord Vaisy has recently reconstituted it.

我认为，他对这个领域来说，虽然有些犹豫，但总体是个好消息。在来的路上，我描述了用市场上市的蓝筹公司类比比特币，而我在厨房里创建的新代码更像是Solana上的模因币。是的，他立刻理解了这两种资产的不同风险特征。显然，我们在英国和其他地方都有一个原则，即相同风险，相同监管。

He is, I think, hesitantly quite good news for the space. In the ride over here, was describing the car how we had used an analogy of sort of blue chip companies listed on the market as more into Bitcoin and new codes that I established in my kitchen as more into a meme coin on Solana. Yep. He understood that immediately, the different risk profiles of those two assets. And we obviously have a principle in The UK and and elsewhere, which is same risk, same regulation.

如果你承认两种资产有不同的风险特征，那么只要你仍然相信相同风险相同监管的原则，你就应该区分对这些资产的监管方式。所以这是他们防御中的一个漏洞。他喜欢这个观点。我昨天刚写信祝贺他成立新的APBG。所以我肯定想利用这个关系。

If you concede that two assets have a different risk profile, then provided you still believe in same risk regulation, same same risk, same regulation, you should also then differentiate the way that you regulate those assets. So that's that's a chink in their armor. He liked that. I wrote to him just yesterday congratulating him on the new APPG. So I definitely want to exploit that relationship.

我还有直接渠道联系商业贸易部的金融科技负责人。我们非常非常希望在英国为比特币和比特币行业充当响亮的声音。这对我来说是个人的执念，你可能知道。英国在金融方面非常出色，我们在信息技术方面也很棒。比特币基本上处于这两个领域的交集，我们让这个机会白白溜走，几乎是犯罪。

I have a direct line in also to the head of fintech at the Department for Business Industry and Trade. We very, very much want to act as a loud voice in The United Kingdom for Bitcoin and the Bitcoin industry. And this is a personal bugbear of mine, as you probably know. Britain's fantastic at finance, and we were fantastic at information technology. It is almost criminal that Bitcoin, which sits at basically the Venn diagram that that is a circle, it's criminal that we have let that opportunity just pass us by.

我认为这是我见过一个国家最令人沮丧的事情——脱欧发生时，无论你认为它是好是坏，英国没有尽可能多地激励企业来到英国，再加上没有激励比特币，是最大的失误。是的，完全同意。看到这一点令人震惊，而且情况还在恶化，说实话，现在这简直令人尴尬。

I think it's the most frustrating thing I've ever seen a country do is when Brexit happened, no matter whether you thought it was good or bad, the fact that The UK didn't incentivize as much business as possible comes to The UK, and on top of that, incentivize Bitcoin is the biggest miss. Yeah. Completely. And it's shocking to see. And the fact that it's only got worse is just it's honestly embarrassing at this point.

而且还在变得更糟。是的，这完全非常不可思议。是的。我不知道你有多关注我们的工作，但过去一年半我们与财政部的直接沟通变得越来越令人沮丧。

And it's still getting worse. Yeah. It's utterly utterly extraordinary. Yeah. I don't know how closely you follow our work, but the direct communications we've had with Treasury over the past year and a half got increasingly frustrating.

安德鲁·安德鲁·格里菲斯和上一届来自Bimef Olami的政府并不差。我们甚至与图利普·西迪基有过一次友好的交流，就在她进入政府后。艾玛·雷诺兹，愿上帝保佑她。我不想诽谤她，但从她与我们的通信中可以明显看出，她完全不了解比特币，而且可能永远也不会了解。

Andrew Andrew Griffith and the last government from Bimef Olami were not bad. We even had a cordial exchange with Tulip Siddiqu once once she came into government. Emma Reynolds, bless her. I'm not going to I'm not gonna slander her, but it's clear from her correspondence with us that she doesn't understand Bitcoin at all and likely never will.

是的。问题就在这里。他们理解比特币并不符合他们的利益，因为它只会破坏他们已有的权力。而这正是为什么我非常感激像你在这里所做的工作。但我也认为，在某个时候，必须有所改变。

Yeah. That's the thing. They it's not in their interest to understand it because it just disrupts the power that they already have. And and that's the that's why I'm both very appreciative of the the work that, like, you are doing here. But I also think, like, at some point, like, something has to change.

这就像那种情况，改变是一次葬礼一次葬礼地发生的，我认为。

This is like one of those situations where change happens one funeral at a time, I think.

是的。我喜欢那句话。我的意思是，它稍微更详细一些。我想是马克斯·普朗克说的，你知道，人们不会说服别人相信新思想的真实性。真正发生的是，你知道，旧的拥护者随着时间的推移逐渐消亡，直到被新的所取代。

Yeah. I love that quote. I mean, it'd slightly more elaborate. I think it was Max Planck who said that, you know, people don't people don't convince other people of of the truth of new ideas. What really happens is that, you know, the adverance of the old die out over time until they are replaced by the new.

是的。你的说法简洁多了。

Yeah. Your yours is much neater.

我从未听过原版的说法，不过就这样吧。

I've I've never heard the the real one, but there we go.

是的。不。不。那是真的。

Yeah. No. No. That's true.

那么你是否看到了这方面的政策层面？就像你说的，公司可能会帮助支持英国这些政策研究机构，几乎就像是为主财政公司准备的保险计划。

But so are you seeing the policy side of this? Like you said, the company may help support these policy institutes in The UK as almost an insurance plan for the main treasury company.

总的来说，我认为所有行业都有游说部门。

In generic terms, I'd say that all industries have lobbying arms.

而且

And

你最近应该看到了布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗在唐宁街10号的照片。假装

you will have seen recently photographs of Brian Armstrong at 10 Downing Street. Pretend to

是个比特币玩家。

be a Bitcoiner.

嗯，没错。虽然他的发型很棒。

Well, exactly. Although he's got a great haircut.

发型确实很棒。

Has a great haircut.

是的。我完全同意。我的意思是，不是自夸，但我更希望站在外面的是我。

Yeah. I totally agree. I would I mean, not bigging myself up, but I would much prefer that it was me standing outside.

哦，我完全同意。是的。

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. Yeah.

哦，谢谢。我会剃光头以示敬意。我的意思是，我们面临的关键问题之一——我总是不由自主地回到这一点——政治家和监管机构完全未能理解比特币与广泛的加密货币市场之间的区别。我的意思是，现在已经到了我觉得'加密货币'这个词范围太广的地步。

Oh, thank you. I'll shave my head out of respect. So I mean, one of the one of the key issues we've I default to this all the time. There is a complete failure of politicians, regulators who understand the difference between Bitcoin and the very broad crypto market. It I mean, it's got to the point where I feel that crypto is so broad a term.

这个词现在几乎没用了。百分之百。是的。我很高兴你同意。因为很难看出一个猫咪NFT与一种无国界、全球可访问、完全去中心化的点对点数字货币有任何关联。

It's almost useless now. A 100%. It's yes. I'm glad you glad you agree. It's it because it's very, very difficult to see that an NFT of a cat has anything to do with a nonstates, globally accessible, completely decentralized, peer to peer digital money.

嗯。这两者怎么会是一样的？它们就像你看——我知道——一部新邦德电影的预告片和做Excel表格一样完全不同。

Mhmm. How are those two things the same? They are as different as you watching, I know, a trailer on no. For the for the new Bond film or doing an Excel spreadsheet. They're completely different.

它们碰巧都使用电脑。是的。在某种程度上，你的用户体验是相似的，你可能都是通过键盘访问。但除此之外，它们彼此毫无关联。而且

They both happen to use computers. Yeah. And to a degree, your UX is is similar and that you may be accessing through a keyboard. But other than that, they have nothing wrong with each other. And

那么你是否认为这是一种吸引政策制定者更多关注的方式？也就是说，如果你是一家有良好业绩记录的真实企业，他们可能会比仅仅作为一个英国的政策团体更愿意听取你的意见？

so do you almost see this as a way of getting more attention from policymakers in the sense that if you are a real business that has a proven track record, they might actually listen to you more than being just a policy group in The UK?

个人认为，这是一个很好的总结，英国比特币政策研究所将继续开展工作，继续撰写论文，并希望能举办活动、推动进展。但正如你刚才所说，我强烈感觉到这里的许多激励最终将由市场驱动。嗯。你说政客们没有动力去理解，但你会剥夺他们的一些权力。确实如此。

Personally, I think that's that's a good summary, and the the BP UK will continue doing its work and will continue writing papers and hopefully holding events and pushing forwards. But as you were talking a moment ago, I I I I strongly feel a lot of the incentives here are ultimately going to be market driven. Mhmm. So you said that there's no incentives for politicians to understand, but you will take away some of their power. That's true.

但在某个时刻，他们可能会意识到，通过拥抱而非抵制，他们实际上可以获得更多金钱和权力。我认为这是一个转折点。我之前提到过，在某些方面，我一直认为商业银行将成为对抗央行数字货币（CBDC）的盟友，主要是因为CBDC有可能去中介化。绕过这一点。是的。

But at some point, they may realize that they can actually get more money and more power by embracing it rather than resisting it. And I think that's a tipping point. And I've mentioned before that in some respects, I've always felt that commercial banks were going to be an ally in the fight against CBDCs, largely because CBDCs have the potential to disintermediate. To circumvent that. Yeah.

完全正确。完全正确。完全正确。是的。你明白了。

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You get it.

所以在某个时刻，一旦银行、其他机构和企业意识到并证明在这个领域可以赚取大量金钱，那么你的利益就开始与那些政客们趋于一致——坦白说，那些政客只想对企业和个人征税以制定更多法律，希望这些法律不会太糟糕，因为我们会去游说他们。

So at some point, once banks and other institutions and businesses realize and are demonstrating that there's a lot of money to be made in the space, then it's your incentives are beginning to lie aligned with those politicians who frankly just want to tax businesses and tax people in order to make more laws, which hopefully won't be bad ones because we'll be lobbying them.

我甚至认为你百分之百正确。这甚至已经不是猜测了，因为我们已经在美国看到了拉里·芬克身上发生的事。他从一个强烈推动ESG叙事（这对比特币挖矿尤其不利）的人，变成了一个假装是比特币支持者、现在却在推广比特币的人。是的。我能看到同样的事情也会在英国发生。

And I don't even think that I think you're a 100% right. That's not even speculation at this point because we've seen what's happened in America with Larry Fink. Like, he has gone from being someone who was strongly pushing this ESG narrative, which was very negative, especially for Bitcoin mining, to being like a pretend Bitcoiner who's now pushing Bitcoin. Yeah. And I I can see that thing happening to The UK as well.

但这只是……我的意思是，我们仍然落后太多了。

But it's just I mean, we're still so far behind.

是的。老实说，可悲的是，对于为什么我们如此落后，我没有一个好的答案。因为，回到你之前提到的亚当·巴克，你知道，我们在这个领域拥有惊人的声誉。一些研究这些东西的最优秀人才都是英国人。然而我们的政府和政治阶层却充满了不理解也不关心的人。老实说，我试着对他们友好一些。

Yeah. And honestly, I don't I don't sadly have a good answer as to why we are so far far behind because, I mean, return to Adam Back, who you mentioned earlier, you know, we've got an incredible reputation in this space. Some of the best minds who worked on this stuff have been Brits. And yet our our governments and our political class are are full of full of people who don't understand and don't care. And, honestly, I I try to be nice to them.

我相信他们中的很多人是怀着善意从事这些工作的。有时我在想，我们是否应该直接给他们更高的薪酬。嗯，你知道，如果你...

I I believe a lot of them went into the jobs they do for good intentions. And sometimes I wonder whether we could we we should simply just pay them more. Well, you know if you well, I

我的意思是我并不反对。比如，你大概知道这个数字，英国首相的收入相对于他们的工作职责来说，简直少得惊人。

mean I don't disagree though. Like, I I I you would probably know the figure, but the prime minister of UK earns a shockingly small amount of money for the job that they're doing.

是的。我不是在自夸，但我在Robeson Grey担任高级助理时，赚得比首相还多。

Yeah. I mean, not blowing my own trumpet, but when I was a senior associate at Robeson Grey, was earning more than the prime minister.

没错。这太疯狂了。那样的工作，我的意思是...

Yeah. And that's that's insane. Like, there's no way a job of that I mean, I

我工作比他努力多了。是的。不过，也许薪酬更高，工作就会更努力。嗯，对。是的。

was working harder than him. Yeah. Well, but maybe if you pay more, you work harder. Well, yeah. Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

但我完全同意这一点。我认为答案可能就是给这些人更高的报酬。回到新业务的话题，你们打算筹集多少资金？我们还没谈到那里呢。你们有多少比特币...

But I I totally agree with that. I think the answer could be to pay these people more. Just getting back to the the new business, how much are you raising? We've not even got there yet. How much Bitcoin are

你们要投资吗？我不能给你一个确切的数字，嗯。因为本轮融资还没结束，而且还没公开，但很快就会了。所以我认为可以说，我们正在从一些备受尊敬的投资者那里筹集一笔相当可观的资金，其中有些人你可能还认识。嗯。

you gonna stack? I can't give you an exact figure Mhmm. Because the round hasn't closed yet, and it's not public yet, but it will be very soon. So we are think I can say we're raising a very healthy amount from a number of well respected investors, some of whom you may know personally. Mhmm.

比如丹尼·诺尔斯就是其中之一。我听说过他。就像我说的，我们会立即将大部分资金投入到比特币中。嗯。然后我们会继续推进其他工作。

This is Danny Knowles is, for example. I've heard of him. And like I say, we will deploy the vast majority of that immediately into Bitcoin. Mhmm. And then we'll get back other on the road.

我们还打算筹集更多资金，向更多人讲述我们的股权故事，并购买更多比特币。我们希望尽可能积极、快速地发展。说实话，我真的很钦佩Smolow Web的安德鲁所做的事情。而且我喜欢我们有一个非常强大的竞争对手。在某种程度上，他们领先于我们还挺有意思的。

And we're looking to raise more money to tell the equity story to more people and raise more and more Bitcoin. We want to grow as aggressively and as fast as possible. And to be honest, I really admire what Andrew at Smolow Web has done. And I like the fact that we have a very strong competitor. And in some ways, having them ahead of us is kind of fun.

你小时候跑过田径吗？我知道你玩过跳绳。那很慢。你跑得很慢。

Did did you ever run track when you were a kid? I know you played rope. That was very slow. You were slow.

是的，我从没跑过田径。我……我投掷过铁饼，但从没跑过田径。

Yeah. I never run track. I I threw I threw the discus, but I never run track.

铁饼挺有意思的。我以前跑田径。我以前……我以前是我们4×100米接力的第一棒。而且

Discus was fun. I used to run track. I used to I used to be first leg in our four by 100. And

你看起来不像是跑得快的人。你他妈块头太大了。

You don't look like you should be fast. You're fucking massive.

我那时个子小得多。而且我以前也跑得很快。是的。在第一跑道跑步，跑内弯道的感觉很棒，因为你能清楚地看到其他人领先你多少。嗯。

I I was a lot smaller. And I I used to be fast as well. Yeah. Running the on in lane one, running the inside bend was wonderful because you could literally see how far ahead everyone was of you. Mhmm.

当你转过弯道时，突然意识到你已经超过了所有人。这就是我脑海中的心理模型。我喜欢有人在我们前面。这给了我们目标和超越的对象。

And when you come around the bend, you suddenly realize you've overtaken them all. And that's the mental model I have in my mind here. I like the fact there are people ahead of us. It gives us something to aim for and something to overtake.

所以我们应该谈谈Smart Web公司，因为我认为这是英国历史上最成功的IPO。对吗？

So we should talk about Smart Web Company because they I think it's the most successful IPO in UK history. Is that right?

根据他们的股价增长指标，我相信是这样。

Believe so on their metrics in terms of share price growth.

而且他们在Aquis上市，这是英国的一个小型交易所，相比伦敦证券交易所来说。是的。你们也要在同一家上市。

And and they launched on Aquis, which is a small exchange in The UK compared to, like, the LSE. Yeah. You're launching on the same one.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我可能知道这个问题的答案，但为什么你们选择在那家交易所上市呢？

I I think I probably know the answer to this, but why why are you launching on that one?

嗯，从某些方面来说，它上市速度更快。嗯。而且它是一个以增长为重点的交易所。所以对于那些，也许还有一点要提的是，他们对这种商业模式也有一定程度的熟悉。所以这些因素都是有益的。

Well, it's a it's in some ways, it's quicker to market. Mhmm. And it's also a growth focused exchange. So for those and in perhaps another thing to mention is that they also have a degree of familiarity with this type of business model. So those those things are helpful.

进行IPO的过程极其严格，这里我就不详细说明了，因为很容易查到。但只是为了背景说明，必须遵守大量法规，进行大量披露，还有大量的文书工作要做。例如，你在招股说明书或发行文件中做出的每一项声明——这是投资者向你公司投入资金的基础——都需要是可验证的真实陈述。每一项声明都需要由你的律师、会计师、财务顾问进行严格细致的核查。所以在任何交易所上市的过程都是严格的。

The process of going through an IPO is extremely rigorous, and I won't go into details here because it's it's easy to look them up. But just just for context sake, a lot of regulation has to be complied with, a lot of disclosures have to be made, and an awful lot of of paperwork has to be done. For example, every statement that you make in your prospectus or your offering document, which is the basis on which investors are are putting their money into your company, needs to be verifiably true. And each of those statements need to be checked in rigorous detail by your lawyers, your accountants, your financial adviser. So the process of launching on any exchange is rigorous.

有一个理解你商业模式的交易所是有帮助的。而且在成长型市场上市也有帮助，因为坦率地说，正如我之前提到的，我们不是一个僵尸公司。我们是一个新公司，我们是第一天营业的企业。实际上，我们的首个交易日也可以被视为，你知道，实际上是我们真正开始经营的第一天。嗯。

Having an exchange that understands your business model is helpful. And also launching on a growth market is is also helpful because frankly, as I mentioned before, we're not a zombie company. We're a new we're a day one business. And effectively, our first day of trading is also new could be thought of as, you know, effectively our first day of of actually doing business. Mhmm.

因为这一天我们可以开始实施我们的商业模式。

Because it's it's the day on which we can commence our business model.

说到Aquas，我认为在那种规模的交易所上市既有积极面也有消极面。好处是，如果这是零售驱动的，它是一个真实的、现货驱动的市场，没有所有那些金融工程的叠加。但是没有真正的大资金在场，这是否也限制了你的上涨潜力？

When it comes to Aquas, I see there being kind of positives and negatives to being on an exchange of that size. And the benefit there is, like, if this is retail driven, it's real, like, spot driven market without all that kind of financial engineering on top. But does it also limit your upside potential without the real big money being there?

我认为这个说法很公允。这是对整个更广泛市场的一般评论，不仅仅是Huddl和我们公司。我认为这是一个公平的分类。所以你必须考虑你在什么样的池子里游泳，这个池子有多大，谁可能加入这个池子，以及这个池子的总规模有多大。嗯。

I think that's fair. And this is a comment made generally about the wider market, not not simply be Huddl and and our company. I think that's a fair categorization. So you you've got to think about what what's what's the size of the pool in which you're swimming and who might join that pool and what's the total the the total total size of that pool. Mhmm.

所以SmarterWeb很快就增长到了约10亿市值，主要是由零售和高净值投资者驱动的。20亿很棒，但为了接触更大的资金池，你理想情况下也会上市，并且可能将上市地从Acquist转移到AIM或最终到LSE。嗯。我可能不能透露太多细节，但为了接触比那里可能获得的更大的资金池，这将是董事会考虑的事情。再次强调，始终以股东价值最大化为视角，并考虑这是否符合公司的最佳利益。

So SmarterWeb grew to about a billion market cap quite quickly, largely driven from retail and and, you know, high net worths. 2,000,000,000 is great, but to access bigger pools of capital, you are would ideally also list, and you you potentially move your listing from from Acquist maybe to AIM or eventually the LSE. Mhmm. And I probably can't give too many details about this, but in order to access pools of capital that are larger than what might be available on that, that would be something that the board would consider. And again, at all times with a view on maximizing shareholder value and is it in the best interest of the company.

但确实存在一条潜在的途径可以进入那些其他交易所。

But there is a potential pathway to move into those other exchanges.

完全有可能从一个交易所迁移上市，甚至有可能将上市从一个国家迁移到另一个国家。有些国家是双重上市的。比如一些公司，嘉年华邮轮以前就在伦敦和纽约证券交易所双重上市。

It's perfectly possible to move from one to move the listing, and and it's even possible to move a listing from one country to another. Some countries are dual listed. So some companies, Carnival Cruise ships from they they they used to be dual listed on London and New York Stock Exchange.

好的。但你不认为Aquis主要是——首先，与伦敦证券交易所相比它是一个非常小的市场，主要以零售为主——你不认为这是负面因素吗？它是否

Okay. But you don't see the fact that Aquis being mainly well, it's first of all, it's a it's very small market compared to LSE, mainly retail. You don't see that as a negative. Could it

可能对你来说是积极的？理想情况下，初期是积极的，这也是我们选择去那里的原因。上市速度更快，嗯。口碑传播，并且有望支持我们期望的增长速度。

be a positive for you? Ideally, positive initially, and that's why we've chosen to go there. Speed to market Mhmm. Word-of-mouth, and hopefully supportive of the rate at which we hope to grow.

那么再回到Smarter Web公司，他们经历了疯狂的上涨。嗯。他们表现得非常出色。股价现在

And so when again, back to Smarter Web Company, they had an insane rise. Mhmm. They did incredibly well. Share price is

从他们达到的高点下跌了很多。这是因为他们稀释了股份，还是市场整体走势如此？我认为他们遭受了普遍的市场整体下跌，因为Coincillium在大致相同的时间股价也出现了类似下跌。实际上，MicroStrategy的股票在同一时期表现也不太好。所以这可能是更广泛的宏观市场反应。

down quite a lot from the top that they put in. Is that because they've diluted or is that just the way that the market's gone? I think they've suffered from a general market wide reduction because Coincillium suffered a similar drop in share price at roughly the same time. And actually, MicroStrategy's stock hasn't been performing particularly well over the same period as well. So it's possible that's a wider macro market reaction.

我的意思是，你看，我们投资比特币已经很长时间了。我们知道当价格垂直上涨时会发生什么。你

And I mean, look, we've we've been in Bitcoin for a long time. We we know what happens when a price goes vertical. You

它反方向变化得相当快。

It goes the other way quite quickly.

嗯，是的。有得有失嘛。就是那个过山车上的人的小表情包，对吧？

Well, yeah. Swigs and roundabouts. It's the little meme of the guy in the roller coaster, isn't it?

是的。所以让我们...嗯...我们来谈谈MNAV（每股净资产倍数）的内容吧，因为我其实不太清楚现在的策略是什么。我觉得目前应该低于2倍。我觉得MetaPlanet大概是3.5倍左右之类的。

Yeah. So let's let yeah. Let's go into the MNAV stuff because I don't actually know what strategy is that. I think it's under two at the moment. I think MetaPlanet's at, like, three and a half or something like that.

稍微高一点。

A bit higher.

你认为像这样的公司，一个现实的成熟MNAV应该是多少？

What do you think a realistic mature MNAV for a company like this should be?

我认为这个倍数取决于你在比特币历史的哪个阶段。所以最终，从非常长期的视角来看，我认为大多数MNAV都会趋向于1倍，不是吗？因为一旦所有比特币都已发行并被收购，且没有底层运营业务，那么你的倍数...实际上，也许这样说不公平。也许我们应该思考一下公司传统的估值方式。你应该熟悉不同的公司估值方法，我就简单列举几个。

I think the odds would depend on where you are in Bitcoin's history. So eventually, over the very long term, I would have thought that most MNAV would trend to one, wouldn't they? Because once all of the Bitcoin has been issued and acquired and absent any underlying operating business, then your multiple is well, actually, perhaps that's not fair. So maybe let's think about how companies are traditionally valued. So you you you will you'll be familiar with the different ways of valuing companies just to rattle a few off.

现在你有EBITDA倍数、贴现现金流倍数。对于资产管理业务，你可能会有AUM（管理资产规模）倍数。嗯。所有的估值都是前瞻性的。它们关乎对未来价值或未来现金流的预期。

Now you have an EBITDA multiple, a discounted cash flow multiple. For an asset management business, you might have an AUM multiple. Mhmm. And all valuations are forward looking. They're about the expectations of of future value or future cash flow.

所以当我采用最基本的指标之一——EBITDA倍数时，这指的是息税折旧摊销前利润。我在私募股权工作时，我们会看到EBITDA倍数从5倍到12倍不等，这在私募股权行业相当疯狂。这在实际现金方面的含义是，公司的当前价值包含了未来5到12年相同水平现金流的预期。这就是MNAV可能运作的基本原理。所以MNAV显然是一个比率，即公司企业价值与你持有的比特币资产价值之间的比率。

So when I take one of the most basic being an EBITDA multiple, that's your earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortization. So when I was working private equity, we would see EBITDA multiples between five going up to 12 times, which was pretty nuts in in a private equity business. And what that translates to in actual cash terms is that the today's value of the company includes the expectations of between five and twelve years of future cash flow at that same level. And that's the basic principle on which MNAV potentially works. So MNAV is is obviously the that's the race it's a it's a ratio between the enterprise value of the company and the asset value of the Bitcoin that you hold, basically.

因此它暴露于比特币价格的巨大波动以及公司积极收购比特币的速度。所以在某些方面，用大于1的MNAV来估值公司并不一定不合逻辑，因为我认为你实际上假设了两点。首先，你持有的比特币可能会继续升值。我忘了比特币的（年化增长率）是多少，目前大约是40%。

So it's exposed to the wide variations and fluctuations in the Bitcoin price and also the rate at which the company can aggressively acquire it. So in some ways, valuing a company on on an on an MNAV that is greater than one isn't necessarily illogical because what you're assuming there is that there are two things really, I think. Firstly, that the the Bitcoin which you hold is likely to continue appreciating. I forgot what the of Bitcoin is. The moment it's about 40%.

37%左右吧。是的。

37% or something like that. Yeah.

没错。所以如果你进行MNAV估值，你看到的是在X时间段内每年40%的增长。在我刚才举的EBITDA例子中，即使在私募行业，那也是5到12倍。美国的科技巨头，我认为有些公司的倍数高得离谱，你知道，三十、四十、五十倍。

Yeah. There you go. So if you're if you're doing an MNAV valuation, you're looking at a a 40% annual increase over x period of time. And in the example I just gave on on EBITDA, even in the PE industry, that was that was five to 12. The tech giants in The US, I think some of them are on insane multiples, you know, thirty, forty, 50.

我觉得好市多(Costco)大概是20多倍。是的。

I think Costco is at like 20 something. Yeah.

我的意思是，这功能上来说简直是疯了。这完全是另一个话题，关于为什么这些估值如此之高，是否因为人们

I mean, Which is is functionally insane. That that that's a whole different conversation around around why are those valuations so high, and is that because people

在玩博弈游戏。

park games.

确实如此。人们把钱投在这些资产上是因为不能把钱留在银行账户里。所以我认为，可能稍微修正一下我刚才说的，如果你把未来比特币持仓收益考虑进MNAV，那么MNAV大于1是有可能的。即使你不再购买任何比特币，比如说你持有2100个（我知道这是个不错的整数）。即使你不再买入，只要价格保持合理高位，复合年增长率就会让你在持有期间看到资产增值，这个增值基于持有年数乘以复合年增长率。

Well, exactly. People are parking their money in them because they can't leave it in the bank account. So I think potentially, you know, slightly backtracking on what I said a moment ago, an MNAV of greater than one can if you factor into the MNAV of the future gains that you see in your Bitcoin holdings. So even if you never bought another another Bitcoin, let's say let's say you get, I know, nice round number 2,100. Even if you never bought another Bitcoin, if the cargo stays reasonably high, the compound annual growth rate, then, you know, for the period that you hold the stock, you might look to see appreciation based on that number of the number of years you hold it multiplied by the compound annual growth rate.

嗯。所以即使你不再购买更多比特币，你仍有可能看到MNAV大于1或显著大于1。

Mhmm. So even where you never to buy any more Bitcoin, you could potentially see an MNAV of greater than or significantly greater than one.

因为在我看来，这些 treasury 公司必须保持MNAV大于1。否则我不明白为什么会有人购买它们。

It's because, like, to me, I think these treasury companies have to keep an MNAV of greater than one. Otherwise, I don't see why anyone will buy them.

确实。这个观点相当精妙，说得很好。但是

Well, yes. That is a fairly it's an elegant point well made. But

所以当你观察这个时，显然这类公司总会有一个增长期，期间MNAV往往会走高。是否会发生，谁知道呢？这取决于市场。但我搞不明白的是这些公司的终局是什么。比如1.5倍的MNAV是否足以吸引投资者？

so, like, in when you look at this, obviously, there's always the, like, growth period of a company like this where MNAV tend to go high. Whether that happens or not, who knows? Like, that that's up to the market to decide. But what I can't quite figure out is what the end game for these companies is. Like, is is one and a half MNAV enough to make it interesting to investors?

或者说，因为在某个时点，你必须考虑交出私钥的风险。如果对比选项是购买这些treasury公司或直接购买比特币，你可以以1倍MNAV自己购买比特币，没有风险或风险自担。那么这些公司需要保持高于1多少的MNAV才能成为有吸引力的选择？

Or like, because at some point, you have to factor in risk of parting with your keys, essentially. Like, if the comparison is you either buy one of these treasury companies or you buy Bitcoin, you can buy Bitcoin at one x MNAV yourself with no risk or the risk is with you. So, like, what is the the amount above one that these treasury companies have to retain to make them an interesting proposition?

我觉得这是个有趣的问题。我不能替其他公司回答，但对于我们公司，答案很简单：我们将成为一家比特币业务公司，而不仅仅是比特币持有公司。嗯。因此对我们来说，发展和建设比特币基础设施与服务业务是估值上的额外加分项。作为一家实际运营的企业，从比特币行业的附加服务中获得现金流和收入，是另一种评估企业价值的方式。

I think that's an interesting question. I can't answer for other companies, but I think certainly for ours, the answer is quite simple, that we are going to be a Bitcoin business, not just a Bitcoin holding business. Mhmm. And so for us, being and developing the Bitcoin infrastructure and services side is an additional kicker that you would have in terms of our valuation. And so being an actual operating business that derives cash flow and revenues from additional services in the Bitcoin industry is another way in which you could value the business.

事实上，随着时间的推移，基于EBITDA倍数对我们进行估值可能并非不公平，例如。或者如果我们的商业模式、主张和预测是成功的，你甚至可以用DCF（贴现现金流）方法来估值。所以，我的意思是，公司估值有多种不同方式，你并不局限于使用某一种。我提到了私募股权。很多私募股权公司会有他们内部私密的估值模型来使用。

In fact, over time, it might not be unfair to value us on an EBITDA multiple basis, for example. Or if our business models, proposition and forecast is successful, you could could even value us on a DCF basis. So, I mean, there are all kinds of different ways of valuing companies, and you're not restricted in in using one or the other. And I mentioned private equity. A lot of private equity houses will have their own in house secret source valuation models that they will use.

嗯。所以我认为这是个有趣的问题。我认为你真的需要深入挖掘这个业务实际做什么。如果你的业务只是购买并持有比特币，那就不有趣了。确实如此。

Mhmm. So I think it's an interesting question. I think it you really got to drill down into what the business actually does. If all your business does is buy and hold Bitcoin It's not interesting. Exactly.

嗯，除了，你知道，学术上会这样做如果你在看股票行情。如果你的业务只是拥有并持有比特币，那么也许那是你应该使用的唯一估值指标。但如果你如果你的业务不仅仅是持有它，那么考虑其他可能也适用的估值方法就很有趣了。

Well, other than, you know, academic do if you're watching your your stock ticker. If if all your business does is is own and hold Bitcoin, then perhaps that's the only valuation metric that you should use. But if you if your business doesn't mourn, just hold it, then it's interesting to consider other valuation methodologies that may also be applicable.

是的。好吧。所以，就像，看得更远一点，因为这很有趣。目前这个播客几乎感觉像是一个比特币国库播客。每期节目都会提到它。

Yeah. Okay. So, like, looking further out, because it's funny. This podcast at the moment almost feels like a Bitcoin treasury podcast. It comes up in every show.

这都是人们想谈论的。而且，说实话，我觉得其中很多内容很无聊。原因是，这不是我进入比特币领域的原因。我进入比特币是为了那种自由货币的一面。同时，如果我不认为这有点独特的话，我绝不会做这项投资。

It's all people wanna talk about. And, like, to be fully transparent, I find a lot of it boring. And the reason being, like, this is not why I got into Bitcoin. I got into Bitcoin for sort of the freedom money side of things. At the same time, I would never have done this investment if I didn't think this was something a little bit unique.

而且，老实说，

And, honestly,

这个

the

关键在于背后的团队。我相信这些人是真正的比特币信仰者，而很多人只是扮演比特币信仰者的角色在做这件事。但随着市场成熟，我们看到现在几乎每周都有比特币储备公司出现，你认为这种情况会减少还是增加？

big thing was the team behind it. Like, I trust these are actual Bitcoiners, and there's a lot of people that are just sort of cosplaying as Bitcoiners doing this thing. But if you look further out as this matures, at the moment we're seeing a Bitcoin treasury company literally every week, do you think that is going to diminish or increase?

我个人认为比特币储备公司的涌现可能会放缓——这只是我的个人观点，不代表B Huddle。同时我也希望这个领域的业务空间能够扩大。从宏观角度来看，我们团队都秉持一个原则：最终所有公司都会在资产负债表上持有比特币。

I suspect the spate of Bitcoin treasury companies will probably slow down, and that's just my personal view, not a not one from from B Huddle. I also think the space for businesses working in the sector, I hopefully will increase. And again, taking a very, very sort of bird's eye view of this, I think it's it's a principle that all of the team hold that eventually all companies will hold Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

我对这一点非常看好。我希望看到那些有现金流的大公司购买比特币。这比某个小国家的随机咖啡公司为了拯救资产负债表而做比特币储备要有意思得多。

That's something I'm very bullish on. Like, I wanna see the big companies that have cash flows buying Bitcoin. That's way more interesting to me than, like, some random coffee company in, like, some tiny country doing a Bitcoin treasury plate to try and save their balance sheet.

嗯。但我觉得你刚才说的正好指出了为什么要这么做。如果你是一家小公司，为什么要在资产负债表上持有比特币？因为你不希望看到现金储备的价值像多年前那位水手所说的融化的冰块一样消失。嗯。

Mhmm. But I think what you said there, you've you've pinpointed exactly why you would do it. Why would you hold Bitcoin on your balance sheet if you're a small company? It's because you don't want to see the value of your cash treasury be the melting ice cube that sailor thought about years ago. Mhmm.

如果从百分比来看，这个数字简直令人震惊。我忘了苹果公司资产负债表上有多少现金，但曾经一度他们持有约700亿美元的现金。嗯。按照当时的通胀率，这些钱正在不断蒸发。是的。

And the percent if you think about it in a percentage terms, it's it's utterly astonishing. I forget how much cash Apple had on its balance sheet, but at one point, it was sitting on something at 70,000,000,000. Mhmm. And at the rate of inflation at the time, that was evaporating. Yeah.

然而他们对此毫无作为。一直保持现金形式。我觉得这个决定无法理解。我同意。为什么他们不把哪怕1%的资金配置到有史以来表现最好的资产上？

And yet they did nothing with it. They kept it in cash. I find that decision inexplicable. I agree. Why wouldn't they allocate even 1% into the best performing asset of all time?

他们本应该...我的意思是，再从风险调整的角度来看。我特别喜欢当人们提到比特币风险时。风险是生活的一部分。没错。风险很有趣。

They would have I mean, look and again, look at it in risk risk adjusted. I I love when people bring up Bitcoin risk. Risk is a part of life. Yep. Risk is fun.

你只需要决定你的风险承受水平是多少，以及你对谁负有责任。所以如果我是在管理别人的资金，我就对他们负有信托责任，需要尽可能负责任地管理资金，采用他们习惯且满意的风险水平。嗯。如果他们愿意让我用1%的资金承担略高的风险，那么最坏的情况就是他们永远损失这1%的资金。这就是绝对最坏的情况。

And all you need to decide is what's your what's your level of risk tolerance and to whom do you owe the duties to. So if I'm a manager of someone else's money, I owe I need I have fiduciary responsibilities to them to manage the money as responsibly as I possibly can with a level of risk which they are accustomed and happy with. Mhmm. So if they are happy for me to take a slightly riskier position with 1% of their capital, their total their their worst case now is they lose 1% of their capital completely gone forever. So that's your absolute worst case.

嗯，我认为实际的最坏情况可能与此不同。如果我说错了请纠正我，但我觉得像苹果这样的公司不这么做的原因可能是，第一，它们本质上非常保守。我认为它们担心的是——虽然我不认为这会发生——如果它们决定将1%的现金头寸配置到比特币上，股价会怎样？我认为它们会担心股价随后下跌，

Well, I think the actual worst case is maybe different to that. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but the way I think about the reason companies like Apple don't do it is probably one, they're, like, very conservative in nature. And I think what they'd be worried about, although I do not think this would happen, is if they decided to allocate 1% of their cash position to Bitcoin, what happens to the share price? And I think they'd be wearing the share price then falls,

我不认为这会发生。有意思。我可能错了。我只是在推演这个情况。如果苹果购买比特币，它们的股价会下跌吗？

which I don't think would happen. Interesting. I could be wrong. I suspect I mean, I'm just playing that through. If Apple were to buy Bitcoin, would their share price fall?

不会。我认为真的不会下跌，但我觉得这就是它们在进行某种交易时所权衡的风险。

No. It wouldn't. I I really don't think it would fall, but I think that's the risk that they're way that they're sort of trading are.

嗯，是的，你要记住，在那么大的公司里，决策过程非常缓慢且繁琐

Well, yeah, you're and remember, your decision making at a company that big is very slow and very cumbersome

是的。

Yeah.

这就是为什么我们看到比特币的采用主要是由较小的公司推动的。嗯。所以苹果要做出这样的决定，需要经过风险委员会的审批。会有多次董事会会议。还会有投资者关系电话会议，许多投资者可能会说，我们不喜欢对比特币的风险敞口。

Which is why we've seen Bitcoin adoption adoption largely by smaller companies. Mhmm. So for Apple to make a decision like that, it would need to go through the risk committee. You would have many different board meetings. There would be investor relations calls, and a lot of the investors might say, we don't like exposure to Bitcoin.

不要这样做。是的。你可能看到了微软董事会最近的提案，关于微软是否应该采用比特币。

Don't do this. Yeah. You probably saw the the recent proposition of Microsoft's board, whether Microsoft should adopt Bitcoin.

当Saylor与他们通话时。

When Saylor did his call with them.

是的。完全正确。嗯。他们投了反对票。我对此完全不感到意外。

Yes. Exactly. Mhmm. And they voted no. I was completely unsurprised by that.

是的。我也是。我完全不感到意外。你要记住这一点，虽然有点技术性，但很重要。这些大公司的很多股份并不是由那些会参加股东大会并投票的积极投资者持有的。

Yeah. Me too. I'm completely unsurprised. And you gotta remember that this this is a slightly geeky point, but one that one that's important. A lot of the shares of these very big companies are held not by active motivated investors who go to shareholder meetings and vote.

它们是由像贝莱德或Hagglis Landsdowne这样的基金持有的，这些机构代表数百万的小投资者持有这些股份。是的。你知道，我持有一些微软股票，不多，大概三四股左右。shitcoiner（贬义加密货币持有者）。嗯，我还是用PC。

They are held by funds like BlackRock or like Hagglis Landsdowne, and those institutions will hold those shares on behalf of millions and millions of small investors. Yep. You know, I own some Microsoft shares, not many, you know, three or four or something like that. Shitcoiner. Well, I still still use a PC.

但我没有在他们的股东大会上投票，因为Hargoose Landsund代表我持有，大多数基金提供商和平台都会有一个政策，他们会按照董事会的建议来投票。嗯。董事会建议投票反对采用比特币。所以绝大多数人都投了反对票。人们注意到激进投资者的原因是他们极其罕见。

But I didn't vote on their shareholders because Hargoose Landsund holds on my behalf, and most of the fund providers and platforms will have a policy in place that they will vote on shareholder votes in accordance with the recommendations of the board. Mhmm. And the board recommends vote no on adopting Bitcoin. So the vast majority of people vote no. And the reason people notice activist investors is because they're so extraordinarily rare.

嗯。迪士尼有一位激进投资者，他大概持有3%的股份。过去几年他一直以一种相对有趣的方式制造麻烦。但人们注意到他是因为他在阻挠。他

Mhmm. And there's an activist investor at Disney who's like, think he holds like 3%. He's been making a nuisance of himself over the last few years in a relatively amusing way. But people notice him because he's obstructed. What's he

最近在忙什么？

been doing?

哦，我记不清了。他一直在...我觉得他一直在抱怨公司的方向和电影制作决策等等。关于《白雪公主》。嗯，说真的，谁不会呢？公平地说，我其实还没看过《白雪公主》，所以可能不该对它出言不逊。

Oh, I can't remember. He's been I think he's been having a go about the direction of the company and filmmaking decisions and so on. About Snow White. Well, mean, who wouldn't? I actually, in fairness, I haven't seen Snow White, so I probably shouldn't be rude about it.

我也没看过。不过我最近在和女儿一起看原版。哦，真温馨。但我确实...是的。还没看新版。

Me neither. Apart from I have been watching the original version with my daughter. Oh, sweet. But I've Yeah. Not seen the new one.

弗雷迪，关于这家公司，还有什么我们没谈到但你想聊的吗？

Freddie, is there anything that you wanna talk about about this company that we've not covered yet?

我认为值得重申我们的长期愿景。第一天起，我们的目标就是尽可能多地收购比特币，但我们希望成为比特币基础设施系统中绝对不可或缺的一部分。这从我们作为闪电网络节点运营者的参与开始，这将带来两个好处：既能产生收入，又能让网络更加稳定。然后我们真正希望成为英国比特币行业发展的焦点。嗯。

I think it's worth reiterating our long term vision for it. Day one, it's about acquiring as much Bitcoin as we can, but we want to be an absolutely integral part of the Bitcoin infrastructure system. And that's starting with our participation as a as a Lightning node runner, which will have two benefits, both generating revenue and secondly, making the network more stable. And then we really want to be a focal point for the growth of the Bitcoin industry in The United Kingdom. Mhmm.

如果我们能实现这些目标，我就能安心入睡，因为我已经为股东创造了价值，同时也促进了比特币在美国的采用。

And if we can achieve those things, I'll go to bed happy that I've been able to deliver value for shareholders and also promote the adoption of Bitcoin in The United Kingdom.

我认为这是一个非常崇高的目标。我们需要这一切发生。而且...如果我听起来对任何这些事持怀疑态度，我很抱歉，但说实话，我对很多这类国库公司都持怀疑态度。我确实把钱投在了这里，这在某种意义上是一种信任投票，因为我确实认为你们能做出些不同的事。我希望你们能做到。

I think that's a very honorable goal. We we need that to happen. And and, like, I'm I'm sorry if I've come across skeptical of any of this, but, like, truthfully, I am skeptical of a lot of these treasury companies. I've I've literally put my money here, which is, like, a vote of confidence in the sense that I do think you guys can do something different. I hope you can.

我会密切关注这件事的。

I'm gonna be watching it pretty closely.

我的意思是，听着，我觉得你们是伙伴，我不仅对你们负有信托责任，而且我绝对希望看到你们充分利用投资。你是在为我工作

We are I mean, look, I think you're mates, and not only do I owe your fiduciary duty to you, but I absolutely want to see you make the best of your investment. Do you work

现在吗？

for me now?

我想实际上确实如此。

I suppose actually I do.

这就对了。

There we go.

这就是船上那个梗。我是船长。

It's it's the meme on the boat. I'm the captain.

好吧，弗雷迪，我对此很期待。感谢你的时间。等你能谈谈公司未来的业务计划时，我希望再做一次采访。我会回来的。

Well, I'm excited for this, Freddie. Thank you for the time. And when you can talk about kind of the future business plans for this company, I'd like to do it again. Me back.

非常感谢。好的。感激不尽。又是你啊。

Thank you so much. Alright. Appreciate it. You again.

谢谢你，兄弟。

Thank you, man.

谢谢你。干杯。

Thank you. Cheers.