季节之间：南非童年的故事

新一季开始前，我们回到特雷弗故事最初书写的地方——南非。童年的欢笑与挣扎中，埋藏着他成为今日之人的根源。此刻我们收集的正是这些故事。我们的旅程始于特雷弗家族一贯的起点：祈祷。在黑人聚居区，祈祷不仅是信仰。

Before the new season begins, we return to where Trevor's story was first written, South Africa. In the laughter and struggles of childhood lie the roots of who he became. These are the tales we gather now. Our journey begins where Trevor's family always began, with prayer. In the townships, prayer was more than faith.

它更是一种身份认同，提醒着你归属何方。

It was identity, a reminder of where you belong.

这就是最尴尬的部分——如何开启一段对话。

This is the awkward part, how how you start a conversation.

这是每次对话最糟糕的环节。不如我们从祈祷开始？因为这正是我们祖母用祈祷开启会议的原因。对，剪掉一个。

It's the worst part of every conversation. Why don't we start with a prayer? Because this is actually why our grandmother started meetings with prayers. Oh, yeah. Cut off one.

没错。因为能化解尴尬。毕竟你不能直接聚在一起就说'你儿子吸毒'或'你丈夫出轨'。以祈祷开场，话题自然就打开了。但它

Yeah. Because it's to cut the awkwardness. Because now you're gonna you can't just come together and be like, your son has a drug problem and your husband is cheating. If you start with a prayer, then it opens up. But it

同时也是聚居区的权力象征——因为这里所有人都能通过祈祷认出这是谁家，毕竟

was also a township power move because everyone here will know whose house this is because

你不能在别人家领祷

you can't lead a prayer at

在别人家不能主持祈祷。不行。在南非家庭里祈祷时，首先...我不确定你祖母是否这样。我祖母总会报上地址，还会说来自哪里和姓名。不，我祖母确实会这样。

You can't lead a prayer at somebody else's house. No. When you pray when you pray in a South African household, right, first of all, like, I don't I don't know if your grandmother does. My grandmother used to give her address and she used to give, like, where she's from and her name. No, My my grandmother would do that.

她会说'弗朗西斯·诺亚'，然后接着说'斯特拉·莱夫'。地点。对。你是谁，从哪来之类的。

She'd be like, Francis Noah. And then she'd be like, Stella Life. Location. Yeah. Who you are, where you're from, whatever.

我记得有次问她：为什么要这样？她反问'为什么我要假设'。她说'特雷弗，我必须假设上帝时刻在聆听我'。就是这样。

And I remember I asked her once. Was like, why are you doing this? And then she was like, why do I assume He was like, yeah. She said, I she said, Trevor, I I must just assume that God is always listening to me. She's like, yeah.

是啊，这确实不公平。而且你想，大多数南非人，就像普遍的祈祷一样，我觉得他们对上帝非常体贴。就好像我们清楚你在做事，也明白你的意思，懂我意思吗？

Yeah. That's not fair. And if you think about it, most South African, like prayer in general, I think is very, like, considerate of God. It's very much like we know that you're doing stuff and we know that, like, you know what I mean?

没错。但我觉得因为传教士的缘故，我们黑人从未认为上帝与我们同在。上帝是被带给我们的。所以我们总是要自我认同，同时与非信徒划清界限。

Yeah. But I think because of missionaries, we never, as black people, thought that God is with us. God was brought to us. So we always have to identify ourselves and also separate ourselves from the nonbelievers.

你说到传教士这事现在想想挺讽刺的。真的。我其实觉得很多那种情况是真实的。因为你看，我总在思考这个问题。我会想，想象一下作为非洲大陆任何地方的黑人。

It's funny now that you say the missionary thing. Yeah. I actually think a lot of that was real. Is that like because think I always think about this. I go like, imagine being a black person anywhere on the continent.

对吧？这些人带着宗教而来。对吧？然后他们告诉你，你生活中诸事不顺的原因是你没有信仰，特别是这个上帝。

Right? These people come with religion. Right? And then they tell you that the reason things are going bad in your life is because you don't have Religion. This this God in particular.

因为原本就有宗教存在。好吧。整个非洲大陆，整个南美，这些地方都有不同的宗教。他们会强迫，你知道，土著人民以预定价格购买他们没人要的商品。他们会让他们干驴骡之类的苦力活。

Because there was religion. Okay. There were different religions all over the continent, all over South America, all over these places. They would force, you know, the the native people, that they would force them to buy goods from them that nobody else wanted to buy at predetermined prices. They would say they would do the work of, like, donkeys and mules and and all of that stuff.

但关键是他们也带着宗教而来。所以世界各地我都能感受到这种氛围，人们带着宗教进来对你说：嘿，你遭遇这些不幸都是因为你不敬拜上帝。

But the main thing was they also came in with religion. So everywhere in the world, I can see this this this vibe where people have come in with religion saying to you, hey, all these bad things that are happening to you are because you don't worship God.

而且

And

那当时肯定很诡异，因为土著人会想：你们就是正在祸害我们的灾星。而他们说：对极了。要是你们祈祷过

then it must have been weird because the natives are like, you you are the bad thing that's happening to us. They're like, yes. Exactly. If you had prayed

而且你们还有青霉素。

And you have penicillin.

这些就不会发生在你们身上了。

This wouldn't be happening to you.

但我以为你不需要青霉素，因为你可以祈祷。耶。

But I thought you didn't need penicillin because you can pray. Yay.

而这会

And this is go

穿上衣服。特雷弗的思维自有其节奏。有人看到的是混乱，但这实则是天赋。这份天赋曾让他光着脚或站在回家路边的经历。

put on clothes. Trevor's mind moved to its own rhythm. Some saw disorder, yet It was a gift. A gift that once left him shoeless or on the side of the road on his way home.

我和我妈的记录里，她总提起的故事是有天我放学回家。没有书包，也没穿鞋。拜托。然后我妈对我说——我表弟也总讲这个故事，因为他说那天我挨了顿史无前例的揍。史无前例。

My record with my mom, the the story that she keeps bringing up is one day I came home from school. I had no backpack, and I had no shoes. Come on. And then my mom said to me and my cousin always tells a story as well because he says that day I got one of the all time beating. All time.

他说他记得看着我当时就想，这本来可以避免的。他自己当时也是个孩子

And he says he remembers like watching me going, but this could have been avoided. He was also a child

然后他就说

and he was like

他说他看着我，心里想着，但他本可以避免的。事情是这样的：我回到家，我妈就问，你东西呢？我说书包太重了。就放下了。所以我把它放路边了。我觉得很合理。对。然后她问，鞋呢？我说鞋是新的，我不想穿坏它们。

he says he watched me and he he thought to himself, but he could have avoided this. And what had happened was I came home and apparently my mom was like, where's all your stuff? And I said to her, I said the bag got heavy. Put it down. So I put it down.

我直接把它们丢在路边了。对我来说很逻辑。是啊。然后她说，那鞋怎么回事？我说，新鞋我不想穿旧。

I literally left it on the side of road. I To put me, logical. Yeah. And then she said, and what happened to the shoes? And I said, the shoes were new and I didn't wanna finish them.

所以我把它们放在学校附近，这样回家路上就不会磨损。你知道鞋帮会磨破对吧？我们不像其他孩子那样能常买新鞋。我注意到他们的鞋跟总是平的。

So I left them somewhere close to school so I don't have to wear them out on the way home. Because you know like your shoes would get worn out on the sides. Right? Like we couldn't afford new shoes the same way other kids could. So I noticed kids always had like a flat heel on their shoe.

看你多细心啊。没错。而我的鞋跟是斜的。看起来糟透了。所以我想，如果能保护好鞋子，就不会被嘲笑太多。

Look at how observant you are though. Exactly. And then my shoes had the slant Yeah. That looked terrible. So I was like, okay, if I can preserve my shoes, then I won't get laughed at as much.

所以我会把鞋子留在学校附近，然后光脚走回家。我们回去后发现一切如常，这说明从技术上讲我的计划成功了。技术上讲？是的。但她无法理解，而我的大脑记得当时觉得这很合理，对我来说。

So I'll leave the shoes near school and then walk home barefoot. And we went back and every everything was where it was, which means my plan worked technically. Technically? Yeah. But she she couldn't understand and my brain I remember thinking this made sense and To me.

对我来说，这完全说得通。没错。

To me, it makes complete sense. Yes.

童年时，特雷弗和朋友们把街道变成游乐场，在没有被给予的空间里开辟天地。他记得社区如何仅凭砖块和勇气就能建立起来。

As children, Trevor and his friends turned the streets into playgrounds, claiming space where none was given. He remembers how community can be built from nothing but bricks and courage.

我认为真相是我们以为自己没有第三空间，但其实只是因为我们将所有空间都私有化了。比如前几天我在布鲁克林某些区域散步时就想到，我注意到街区派对的次数减少了。那本是个简单的活动——你们封闭街道，达成共识。这头的邻居，那头的邻居，我们都同意。

I think the truth is that we think we don't have the third spaces, but we it's it's just because we've made every space a private space. Like, I was just thinking this walking around like parts of Brooklyn the other day. I've noticed a dip in how many block parties there are. Just that was a simple event where you closed the streets, You agreed. Neighbor at end, neighbor at the end, we all agree.

每周六我们会封闭街区。嗯。大家只需打开门走出来，孩子们可以踢球、击球。太棒了。现在我在纽约少数几个地方看到这种做法。

On Saturdays, we are going to close our block. Mhmm. Everyone's gonna just open their door and like walk out and the kids can kick a ball and can hit a ball. So great. And I've seen a few parts of New York where they do it now.

顺便说下，比如曼哈顿的切尔西区附近。有天我开车时很恼火，因为赶飞机路上遇到封路。但我爱死那个场景——看到有人打棒球，人们奔跑，整条街封闭着。我突然意识到：我们被洗脑了，竟没发现家门口就是第三空间。

Like this is like in Manhattan by the way, like Chelsea, somewhere there. Okay. I remember driving one day and I was irritated because I was in the car trying to get to an airport and the road was closed. But I love the fact that like I saw like someone hitting a ball, a baseball, and then people running, the whole street was just closed. And I was like, oh, we've been tricked into thinking the thing that's right outside our door is not a third space.

不，那不算第三空间。

No. But that's not a third space.

为什么

Why is

第三空间是指真正的...我说的是公园、图书馆这些。不，它们已经被摧毁殆尽了。

Third it spaces are like actual I'm talking about parks, libraries. No. They they have decimated them.

我同意你的观点。但我想说的是，我成长过程中这些根本不存在。是的。黑人孩子不能去图书馆。哦，确实。

I'm I'm with you. And I'm telling you that when I grew up, they didn't exist. Yeah. Black kids couldn't go to a library. Oh, yeah.

哇。那时候没有公园。是的。在种族隔离时期，这些都不存在。但我确实拥有你所说的那种完整的童年。

Wow. There was no park. Yeah. There was no during apartheid, none of this exists. But I have the full childhood that you're talking about.

好的。

Okay.

没错。因为第三空间就是街道。

Right. Because the third space was the street.

街道。

The street.

说得对。我明白

That's right. I get what

你的意思。如果你祖母告诉你环游世界，有时你看不到女孩，但总能看见男孩在街上玩耍。是的。第三空间就是街道。没错。

you mean. If your grandmother told you travel around the world, sometimes you don't see girls, but you always see boys playing in the street. Yes. The third space is the street. Yes.

正是这样。所以你去告诉孩子们

That's right. So you go you tell the kids go

处理掉这些SUV。我不会让我儿子...不。在街上如果美国人没有这些巨型越野车的话。

to get rid of these SUVs. I wouldn't let my son No. In the street if Americans didn't have these huge off cars.

你知道，

You know,

如果他跑到车前面

you If he runs in front of the cars

但这就是我说的封闭街道的意思。对，对，对。所以我希望生活在一个能这样做的社会，就像我脑海中的画面那样，真希望能带你去看看。

But that's what I mean by close the streets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I go, I would love to live in a society where we go like, we used to do this on I I wish I could, like, take you to the picture in my brain.

我们小时候像大人一样管理街道。我们会负责任地封闭街道。对，我们会用砖块在每个路口设置路障封闭道路。

We, as the kids, ran the streets as if we were adults. So we would close the street with responsibility. Yeah. We would take bricks, and we would put them at the beginning of each road and close each road. Yeah.

然后当有车需要转弯时——因为这是条小路，明白吗？不是主干道。所以听众们注意，我说的是非正式的小路。

And then when a car would need to turn into the street because this is like a road. Right. You know, it's not a public I'm not talking about like main roads. So if you're listening to this I want the highway. An informal thing.

对，我说的不是高速公路，不是主干道，我说的是那种...

Yeah. I'm not talking about a highway. I'm not talking about a main road. I'm talking about like

你家附近的街道。

In your neighborhood.

没错，就是社区街道。虽然是镇区但仍是居民区。我们会放砖块，有车要过时就...

Yeah. Your neighborhood. It was a township, but it was still a neighborhood. We'd put bricks there. A car would need to turn.

每个转角都有孩子值守，看到车来就喊'有车'，然后大家跑过去一起挪砖清路。

There would be kids stationed at every corner, and you'd shout, you know, car. Okay. And then you'd run there together. You'd move the bricks. Everyone would clear the road.

车要么开去目的地，要么停在某栋房子前，然后我们重新放好砖块继续玩耍。我同意你说的不是要鼓励在街上玩，但有时我们看待生活难题的角度错了，问题就显得不可逾越。没有手机没有这个那个，现在我们要怎么建设第三空间？

The car would drive either through where it needs to go to or it would like stop at the house that it's stopping at, and then we'd put the bricks back on the road, and then we'd continue playing. And because I agree with you, I'm not saying like go play in the street, but I'm saying sometimes we look at problems in life. And they seem insurmountable because we're looking at them the wrong way. Okay. No phones and no this and no And now are we gonna build third space?

第三空间要花多少钱？去哪找？怎么建公园？要申请许可吗？朋友们，如果你有幸拥有房子或租住空间，第三空间就在你家门外。

How much is a third space? Where do you get it? How do we build a park? Do we get permits? Guys, everyone, if you are lucky enough to have a house, if you are lucky enough to be renting a space, you literally have the third space right outside your door.

你们只需要集体把它 reclaim（ reclaim）回来，真的只需要集体把它 reclaim 回来。

You just have to claim it back. You literally just have to claim it back collectively.

在他家中，毒品与酒精如同从未触及的阴影。但某天，特雷弗的母亲递给他一支烟和一口酒，教会他即使面对诱惑也能保持诚实。

In his home, drugs and drink were shadows never touched. But one day, Trevor's mother offered him a cigarette and a sip, teaching him that even temptation could be faced with honesty.

我回想成长过程中对毒品的认知。所以我这辈子都没碰过大麻，我很好。我甚至会在接触毒品之前就...比如毒品毒品。我妈不喝酒，也不抽烟。

I think about growing up and my perception of drugs. So I didn't touch weed my whole I okay. So I'll I'll I'll I'll even take it before even, like, drugs drugs. My mom doesn't drink. My mom doesn't smoke.

我爸不喝酒，也不抽烟。嗯哼。明白吗？所以我成长的环境里根本没有这些东西。我祖母他们也是。

My dad doesn't drink, my dad doesn't smoke. Mhmm. Alright? So I grew up in a home where that wasn't a thing. My grandmother, etcetera.

在我12、13岁甚至更小时，我妈来到我房间，手里拿着香烟

And my mom said to me when I was 13, 12, 13, maybe even younger, she came to my room and she had cigarettes

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

还有啤酒。她问我：你想要吗？我当时想，哦这是个陷阱。绝对是陷阱。我几乎感到失望，心想：拜托女士。

And she had beer. And she said to me, do you want? And and I was like, oh, this is a trap. Obviously, this is a trap. And I was I was almost disappointed and I was like, come on, lady.

你居然会中这种圈套。你竟然要

You're fall for a trap like that. You're gonna

闯进我房间然后

come into my room and

给我递烟？她还问：你想试试吗？我说不要。因为这些都是坏东西我们不该碰。然后她对我说：听着杰米，你将来会遇到酒精、香烟这些东西。如果你非要尝试，我宁愿知道你在用，而且是在家里用。

offer me cigarettes and and she was like, do you want do you wanna try them? And I was like, no. Because these are bad things and we shouldn't have and then she said to me, listen, Jaime. You're gonna you're gonna encounter alcohol, you're gonna encounter cigarettes and things. So if you're gonna use it, I would rather know that you use it, and then you use it at home.

是啊。这样我就不用担心你在外面偷偷用，瞒着我陷入无法坦白的困境。减害教育嘛。正是如此。

Yeah. And then I don't worry that now you're out in the world using it, you know, hiding it from me and then getting into situations where you can't share that you're not you're using it. Harm reduction. Exactly.

这太神奇了。

It's amazing.

这太疯狂了。我是说，我妈是个超级虔诚、超级严格又超级...其实很开明的人。对。所以她连怎么点烟都不知道。

Which is wild. I mean, my mom is my mom is, like, super religious and super strict and super. Very progressive. Yeah. So then she didn't even know how to, like, light a cigarette.

所以我们只能

So we have to

去找我们只能

go to we have to

去找

go to

我某个叔叔，然后他说'特雷弗，怎么了？'她说'他想试试抽烟'。那人就说'行啊，我想抽'。他给了我们烟，我和他一起抽了一口，我当时就觉得'这玩意儿太垃圾了'。

an uncle of mine, and then he was like, Trevor, what's And she said, he wants to try cigarettes. And the guy was like, okay. I want to smoke. And he gave gave us the cigarettes, and I puffed with him. And I was like, this is trash.

这实在太...我就问'你嘴里什么味道？'懂我意思吗？就像有人把所有恶心的东西吃下去，然后对着你口腔放了个屁。啤酒尝起来就像...像流进下水道的馊水

This is so I was like, how is the taste in your mouth? You know what I mean? It it tastes like someone's, like, eating everything disgusting and then farting it into your your your oral cavity. And then the alcohol beer just tastes like like old water that has, you know, dribbled down a sewer

变成劣质英国酒。我也不喜欢...我也不喜欢这样。

into bad Brit. I don't like I don't like it either.

所以我完全不喜欢这些。后来毒品对我来说也差不多是同一类东西。

So I I didn't like any of that. And then drugs was almost in the same category for me.

其实最初那次经历就...

In fact of that in initial experience.

是啊。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

没错。实际上，毒品在我成长过程中意味着你是失败者。嗯。你会毁掉自己的一生。这就是我对毒品的认知。

Yeah. In fact, drugs, the way I grew up was you are a loser. Mhmm. You are gonna end your life. That's how I knew drugs.

所以现在这种观念还没改变吗？

So that hasn't changed now?

这只是你成长时的观念？这就是我对毒品的理解。别人只告诉我这些。他们说这就是吸毒的后果。所以我连大麻都没碰过。

That was just when you grew up? That's that's how I knew drugs. That's all I was told. These are the things that'll happen when you take drugs. So I didn't I didn't touch weed.

我第一次吸大麻是在21岁。

I smoked weed for the first time when I was 21.

明白了。

Okay.

我以前就是这么反对毒品，我会评判别人，看着他们说：真遗憾你选择这样度过人生。我过去常对我表弟说这话。

That's how, like, anti drug I used to judge people, and I would look at them and I would say to them, it is a pity that you've chosen to do this with your life. I used to say that to my cousin.

在南非，瘦弱并不代表美。完全不是。那是苦难。能长胖才是福气。特雷弗回忆起身体的意义如何随着叙事地点而改变。

In South Africa, thinness was not beauty. Not at all. It was struggle. To gain weight was to be blessed. Trevor recalls how the meaning of a body can change change depending on where the story is told.

我认为现在大众对Ozempic的迷恋部分源于——这很有趣，克里斯蒂安，不知道你对小孩有没有观察——苗条即美的观念从很小就被灌输，就像肥胖、酷儿身份、深肤色一样。这些都被标记为异常的标志。孩子们通过迪士尼电影等各种媒介很早就学会这些观念。

Now I think that one of the things that our whole fascination with Ozempic is based on is and it's interesting, you know, Christiane, wonder if you have thoughts with little kids. Right? Part of beauty is thinness it's taught to you from a really early age, like fatness, queerness, darkness. All of these things are coded as signs of deviance. You learn as a really young child in Disney movies, in anything.

就像美丽被编码为道德，还有这种新教工作伦理的东西。对吧？它是你应该通过艰苦、惩罚性的工作和纪律来实现的。对吧？

Like beauty is really coded as morality and there's this Protestant work ethic thing. Right? It's something that you should achieve through hard and punitive work and discipline. Right?

是啊。

Yeah.

当人们使用Ozempic时，就像，你作弊了。你跳过了艰苦工作的部分。你知道吗？是的。所以你得到了我们要求你得到的东西，但现在我们发现这是一种隐约不道德的瘦。

And when people use Ozempic, it's like, you cheated. You skipped the hard work part. You know? Yeah. And so you you got the thing we demanded of you, but now we find this a vaguely immoral thinness.

就像，你努力工作才得到了正确的东西。好吧。我我听到我听到你在说什么。这很有趣，因为我我不知道你成长过程中是怎样的，但我对体重和如何看待它以及肥胖等有过一段有趣的旅程，因为我是在南非长大的，真的。这是件很难向人解释的怪事。

Like, you worked hard to achieve the right thing. Okay. I I hear what I hear what you're saying. It's funny because I I don't know how it was for you growing up, but so I have I've had an interesting journey with weight and how I perceive it and fatness, etcetera, because I grew up in South Africa, genuinely growing up. This is such a weird thing to try and explain to people.

在南非，如果你胖，你不会被取笑得那么多。就像，一个胖人，你只会说——我甚至不记得我们有没有那么多绰号，但我记得所有给瘦人的绰号是Styxmanzanza。那是我最喜欢的一个。Styxmanzanza，瘦小的manili。就像，有所有这些名字，意思就是你是根树枝。

In South Africa, you did not get made as much fun of if you were fat. Like, so like a fat person, you'd just be like I mean, I don't even remember if we had that many names, but I remember all the ones for skinny people was Styxmanzanza. It was that was my favorite one. Styxmanzanza, skinny manili. It would like, there were all these names where it was just like you you you're a twig.

你是根树枝。是啊。瘦。你，那是缺乏拥有的标志。是啊。

You're a twig. Yeah. Thin. You and it was a sign there of of a lack of having. Yeah.

如果你结婚了却没有增重，人们会说你的婚姻不顺利。真的，他们会说，你妻子对你不好吗？哎呀，老兄。哎呀。哎呀。

If you got married and you didn't gain weight, people would say that your marriage is not going well. Literally, they'd be like, is is your wife not treating you well? Aye, man. Aye. Aye.

诺曼，看看你。如果我从美国回来，很多时候我会这样，我从美国回来时体重增加了。所以每次我回家，人们会说，啊，你看起来不错，老兄。你看起来不错。美国待你不错。

Norman, look at you. If I would come home from The States, and like many times I would, I come back from America and I gain weight. And so whenever I go home, people will be like, ah, you're looking good, man. You're looking good. America's treating you well.

你看起来像特雷弗·诺曼。你看起来不错。看看你的脸颊。你看起来不错。然后，在我成长的地方，肥胖被认为是一种选择。

You are looking Trevor Norman. You're looking good. Look at your cheeks. You're looking good. And then and and and so where I grew up, fatness was considered, like, sort of a choice.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后瘦弱就像是在说，唉，你的生活不太顺利，你做的选择也不对。

And then being skinny was like, ugh, your life is not going well and you're not making the right choices.

确实如此。

For sure.

所以这种观念的转变很有趣，你知道，而且我相信时间也是一个因素。

So it's interesting how it it flips, you know, and I'm sure it's time as well.

小时候，特雷弗就明白即使是权威也可以被质疑。在餐桌旁，分歧催生了新的视角。他探讨了质疑如何能激发创造力。

As a child, Trevor learned that even authority could be questioned. Around the dinner table, disagreement birthed new ways of seeing. He explores how questioning can spark creativity.

有一些经典研究关注家庭，探讨如何培养一个有创造力的孩子。结果发现，有创造力的孩子往往来自那些经常有争论和分歧的家庭。

There's some classic research looking at families, looking at what does it take to raise a creative child. And it turns out that creative children come from families, more often than not, that had regular arguments and disagreements.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。所以如果你想培养一个有创造力的孩子，至少可以增加这种可能性。虽然不确定是否有因果关系，但多和伴侣争论可能会有所帮助。

Yeah. So if you wanna raise a creative kid, you can at least increase the probability. I'm not sure if it's causal, but by arguing with your spouse a little bit more.

你觉得这是为什么呢？我有个想法，但很想听听你的看法。

What do you think that is? I have an idea, but I'd love to know what you think that is.

嗯，在我告诉你我的想法之前，想先听听你的直觉，因为我——

Well, wanna hear your hunch before I I tell you what I think because I've

好的。所以——

Okay. So been

这个问题我已经思考很久了。

thinking about this for a long time.

好的。我是这么理解的：在争论稍多的家庭长大的孩子可能更具创造力，是因为他们所处的环境不存在单一的思维方式。于是他们会偶然发现我称之为'第三思维'的东西，明白吗？

Okay. So here's what I think it is. I think the reason children who grow up in houses that are a little more argumentative might be a little more creative is because they're existing in an environment where there isn't one way to think. And so what happens is they're both stumbling on what I like to call third thoughts. Right?

这个想法是我在《每日秀》团队工作时产生的。我认为每个人都有初始想法对吧？然后你甚至可以独自产生第二想法。但我觉得存在一种难以捉摸的第三思维，它只能来自两种不同想法的碰撞，从而形成不源自单一立场的第三种观点。

I had this idea when I was working on The Daily Show with my team. And I'd say, I think everyone has a thought. Right? And then like, you can have a second thought even by yourself. But I think there's this elusive third thought that can only come from two different thoughts clashing together and forming a third thought that isn't from one specific place.

没错。所以我认为，如果你小时候经常看到你所关爱的人意见相左，你在倾听一个人时可能会认同或理解其观点，再看另一个人时也是如此。然后你可能同时容纳这两种观点，并产生第三种可能是你自己的新见解。这会迫使大脑思考超越现有框架的内容，而这本质上就是创造力。

Yep. And so I think if you are watching people who don't agree as a child, people who you generally love or you care for, etcetera, you are listening to a person and you are agreeing with them maybe or just seeing their point of view. You're looking at another person agreeing with them and seeing their point of view. And then maybe you're holding both including a third which might be yours, which is another opinion of it. And that might force your brain to think of more things than just the things that exist, which I think is what creativity fundamentally is.

这个观点太棒了。所以你的理论是：认知复杂性源于目睹人们争论

I love this. Okay. So so your theory is cognitive complexity comes from seeing people argue

对

Okay.

而你并不...

That you don't

我得记住你说的这些词，你总能让我的想法听起来比实际更聪明时髦，这点我很喜欢。'认知复杂性'——我得记下来。好的。

I need to remember all the You you make, like, some of my ideas sound way smarter and fancier than they are, which I like. Cognitive complexity. Write that down. Alright.

我只是为你已知的概念提供术语而已。

I just give you terms for things you already know.

明白。明白。明白。很棒。

Okay. Okay. Okay. Cool.

我也认为你通过同样的过程学会了成为一个不墨守成规的人。

I also think you learned to be a nonconformist through that same process.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

这让你不会默认或顺从权威人士告诉你的任何事，而是意识到房间里有两个不同的权威，而他们意见相左。我认为这既能带来认知复杂性，也能在面对挑战现状时赋予更多勇气。因为并不存在一个自上而下的标准答案——

That instead of just defaulting or deferring to whatever an authority figure tells you, you realize, well, there are two different authorities in the room, and they don't agree. And you I I think that can both lead to cognitive complexity, but it can also lead to more courage when it comes to challenging the status quo. Because there's not a right answer coming from There is

来自上层的答案。是的。说来有趣，我母亲非常虔诚，极度虔诚。

one coming from above. Yep. You know, it's funny you say this. My mom is very religious. Extremely, extremely religious.

但我也认为她是我一生中见过最具进步思想的人之一。小时候我总注意到，有时她会不同意牧师在布道中的观点。离开教堂时她会说'我不同意那个说法'——而我只是个坐在副驾驶听着的孩子。

But I also think she is one of the most progressive thinkers I've ever come across in my lifetime. And one thing I always noticed as a child was how sometimes she would disagree with the sermon that the pastor gave when we'd leave church. And I'll be like, And I'm just a kid. I'm just sitting in the passenger seat listening. And she goes, I didn't agree with that.

她会说'我理解牧师的出发点，但约瑟的故事并不是关于...'然后开始阐述她的见解。我就会问'可他是牧师啊'，而她回答'是啊，他是个读圣经的人，但他不是上帝'。

I didn't I didn't I I I hear where the pastor was coming from, but I think he was that that story of Joseph is not about and then she'd go into her thing, and and then I'll be like, but he's the pastor. And she's like, yeah. He's a guy who reads the bible. He's not God. Yeah.

'他不是上帝'，她会说，'我们也有圣经'。这让我对宗教有了新认识：不要认为站在讲坛上的人就垄断了知识。你同样可以阅读那本书。

But he's not God. He's like, we also have the bible. And it was an interesting way for me to view even religion is going like, Don't assume that the person who stands on the pulpit has like a monopoly on knowledge. Yeah. You too have the book that you can read.

所以现在我开始思考：这是否塑造了现在的我？你知道...我喜欢这种态度。

And so now that makes me wonder now. I'm like, was that part of me, you know, would okay. I like this.

我也很喜欢。你能看到这两种影响同时存在。显然你不会把牧师的话当作福音真理。

I I like it too. I mean, you can see both of those effects playing out. Yeah. Definitely. You're not just gonna assume that the pastor's answer is gospel.

没错。

Right.

而且你也不会害怕质疑当权者说的话。

And then you're also not gonna be afraid to question what somebody in power says.

特雷弗是第一批坐在跨肤色班级中的一代人。坦白说，这是个脆弱的实验，非常脆弱。在种族隔离的阴影下成长，他回忆着在那个变革年代长大的意义。

Trevor was part of the first generation to sit in classrooms across color lines. A fragile experiment, very fragile, if I'm to be honest with you. Shaped by apartheid's shadow, He recalls what it meant to grow up in that moment of change.

你知道吗，前几天我和朋友戴尔聊天，我们谈到学校当时有个项目——因为我们是真正意义上的第一代，就像...你和我都是第一代...你多大了，丹？

You know, I I I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, Dale, and we were talking about how at our school, they had a program where because we were the first generation that was like, literally, you and I were the first generation how old are you, Dan?

31岁。

31.

31岁。对。所以我们是最早和不同种族孩子一起上学的一代。

31. Yeah. So we were the first generation of kids that went to school with kids of a different race.

是啊。确实。

Yeah. Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

有时候想想觉得太疯狂了，真的——我上学那年是学校里第一次有黑人孩子、印度孩子、有色人种孩子和白人孩子同校。这是史上头一遭。

Literally, I sometimes think about how crazy that was when I go, like, literally, the first year in my school that there were black kids, Indian kids, colored kids, with white kids. That was the first time that had ever happened.

你们是初代试验品。就像第一个孩子

You guys were round one. You were the first child

我们确实是

We were literally

关于实验。哟。我们的老师错了。

on experiments. Yo. Our teachers wrong.

我们的老师以前从未在教室里见过一个黑人孩子。

Our teachers had never seen a black child in front of them in a classroom before.

我们的父母第一次送我们上学时不得不穿上他们最好的周日礼服。

Our parents had to wear their Sunday best for the first drop off.

送上学？我们的父母甚至不知道送上学是什么意思。

Drop off? Our parents didn't even know what a drop off was.

我是说，送克莱夫上学。

I mean, drop off Clive.

不。但想想这个概念。我记得我很震惊，当我上学时，是的，孩子们是由他们的父母开车送来的。是的，他们拥有那辆车。

No. But think about just think about that as a concept. I remember being shocked that when I went to school Yeah. Kids were dropped off by their parents Yeah. In a vehicle that they owned.

就像一个孩子从一辆车里出来。与此同时，当黑人孩子到达时，看起来就像马戏团的把戏，一辆车打开门，然后出来这么多人。你15岁。我们就是这样到处跑的。每辆小车的后面，每辆面包车的后面。嗯。

Like one child got out of one car. Meanwhile, when the black kids got there, it looked like a circus trick where like one car and they'd open a door and then like So many. You're 15. You and and that's how we just traveled around. The back of every buggy, the back of every van Mhmm.

都是我们。嗯。你懂我的意思吗？但那种经历，我们学校有这样一个项目，他们说，我们希望每个孩子去住在另一个孩子的家里，他们是朋友。他们甚至看起来像陌生人。

Was all of us. Mhmm. You know what I mean? But that exposure like our school had this program where they went, we want every kid to go and stay at another kid's house who they're friends with. They weren't even like they looked like a stranger.

是的。但他们说，嘿，你们是朋友。

Yes. But they said, hey, you guys are friends.

但那是一个有意的项目。哟。是的。

But it was a deliberate program. Yo. Yeah.

看到他们谈论暴露疗法真是太棒了。令人惊叹的是，黑人孩子们对所见所闻并不特别惊讶，因为他们中许多人的母亲在为白人家庭工作，所以他们已经瞥见过白人的生活。

It was amazing to see to talking about like exposure therapy. It was amazing to see how the black kids weren't particularly surprised by what they experienced because many of them had moms who were working for white people. So they had seen a glimpse of a white life.

有道理。确实如此。

Sense of it. Yeah. For sure.

让我告诉你，每个去黑人家庭度周末的白人孩子，回家后都说了同样的话。他们问：'爸妈，你们知道黑人是怎么生活的吗？'不是以正义的口吻，就是像孩子那样单纯发问。

Let me tell you something. Every single white kid who went to go and live with a black family for a weekend, every single one of them went home and said the same thing. They said, mom and dad, do you know how black people live? And not in like a a righteous way. Just as like a child.

像好奇的那种方式。

Like a curious way.

就像十四五岁的孩子会说的：'喂，你们知道他们怎么生活吗？知道他们每天怎么上学吗？知道他们要转三趟公交才能到学校吗？'

Like a 14 year old, 15 year old, they went, yo, do you do you know how they live? Do you know how they come to school every day? Do you know that they have to take three buses to get With

和陌生人一起挤车。

other people with strangers.

知道他们家里早上没有热水吗？得生火烧水，用完再烧，每个人都要这样重复。他们没有独立卫生间，厕所还在外面。嗯。

Do you know that they don't have hot water in the morning at their house? You you have to make a fire and then heat it up, and then they call that out, and then you have to do it again for each person and they have to you know, they all they don't have their own bathrooms. You know that their toilet's outside. Mhmm. Mhmm.

我和这个孩子同校，我视他为直接的竞争对手。

I go to school with this kid. I see myself as his direct, like, competition in that way.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯。但我在想，他早上那样起床后是怎么做数学题的？

Mhmm. But I'm going, how is he doing math when he woke up like that?

在一个简单的旋转木马转动中，年轻的特雷弗发现了将人们聚集在一起的快乐。他揭示了那个童年游戏如何指引了他的人生目标。哦，是的。

In the spinning of a simple roundabout, young Trevor found joy in bringing people together. He uncovers how that childhood game revealed the purpose guiding his life. Oh, yeah.

好的。告诉我一个早期具体的快乐童年记忆，让我能与你一起重温。

Okay. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

一个早期具体的快乐童年记忆。童年记忆。是的。该死。这个挺有意思。

An early specific Happy childhood memory. Childhood memory. Yep. Damn. This is an interesting one.

让我想想。因为有很多。多大年纪？给我个年龄我就告诉你。

Let me think. Because there's many. How how old? Give me an age and I'll tell you.

我不在乎。

I don't care.

不。但什么时候算是童年结束？

No. But what what when does childhood end?

四十二岁。好吧。不。不。不过我是认真的。

Forties two. Okay. No. No. I'm being serious, though.

我想要的是你小时候，比如，上学前的年纪。

I want when you're when you're, you know, a child, like, under, you know, in in school. Like,

好的。我早期的童年记忆。我最快乐的童年记忆之一是我

a Okay. My my early childhood memory. One of my happiest childhood memories is me

唯一问过我的人，你指的是什么

The only one who's ever asked me, what do you mean by

童年？是的。因为我觉得人在不同年龄段的记忆确实非常...嗯。

childhood? Yes. Because because I think because I think your memories at different ages are very Yeah.

绝对是特别具体的童年记忆。

Definitely, really specific childhood memories.

对。好吧，说到小时候，我最喜欢的记忆之一是在家附近公园的旋转台上玩耍。

Yeah. So, okay. When I think of young young, one of my favorite memories was playing on the on the roundabout at a park near my house.

这是指某个具体时刻，而不只是你常做的事？

This is something a specific time, not just a thing you did

不。不是。

No. No.

不。这是指某一次。特定的一次。好的。嗯。

No. This is One time. Specific one. Okay. Yeah.

继续说吧。

Go on.

我们当时都在尝试团队协作。嗯。我召集了一群人，嗯，想看看能让这东西转多快。嗯。

And we were all seeing how we were all teaming up. Mhmm. I got a bunch of people together Mhmm. To see how fast we could make this thing spin. Mhmm.

但这简直像场壮举。嗯。你明白吗？因为每个人都得站在正确位置，在恰当时机推动它——我们的目标是让它飞起来。嗯。

But like it was it was a monumental effort. Mhmm. Do you know what I mean? Because everyone had to be at the right place, swinging the thing at the right time to get it our goal was to make it fly. Mhmm.

就是那样

That was

那个梦想。

the dream.

我们当时想，如果转得够用力，它就能飞起来。

We thought if you spin it hard enough, it's gonna take off.

没错。

Right.

这个...这是...但当我回想起来，那真是...哇，多么难忘的一天啊。

This this was a but that was one of my when I think back, I go like, wow, what a day.

多么难忘的一天。在你讲述的这个充满魔力的童年里，发生了那么多奇妙的事情，为什么唯独这件事让你印象如此深刻，以至于现在...

What a day. And of all the amazing things you had happened in this magical childhood that you've talked about, what specifically was it about this one thing that stands out so much that you

想谈论它？是协作。嗯。我选择了合作的伙伴。我们没选那些笨手笨脚的随机小孩——因为那东西会狠狠砸中你的手。

wanna talk about it now? It's collaboration. Mhmm. I chose the people I was doing it with. We didn't pick the random kids who when you had no coordination because the thing's gonna smack you in the hands.

对吧？所以我们选了最强壮、最敏捷、最聪明、最讨人喜欢的。我们把这些人聚在一起，就觉得：这能成。所以不像...如果你是瘦小的孩子，你的任务可能是更靠近内侧；如果你是高大的孩子，你的任务就是负责推。

Right? So we got the strongest, fastest, smartest, like, you know, most affable. We put the people together, and we were like, this works. So it wasn't like if you were the small kid, then your job might have been to be more on the inside. If you were the big kid, your job was to push.

但我们把大家组织起来，各方面都很匹配。对吧？而最重要的是——说来有趣，西蒙·斯涅克——最重要的是我们玩得很开心。

But we put people together, and it it matched in many ways. Right? And the most important thing, funny enough, Simon Sinek, the most important thing was that we were having fun.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我是认真的。我们确实...是的。我们有个目标，但天啊，我们真的乐在其中。

And I mean this genuinely. We were having Yeah. We had a purpose, but man, we were having fun.

所以你现在看到我正在做的，就是寻找这些事物之间的联系。是的。然后说，好，这就是共同点。对吧？也就是你，你获得巨大快乐的时候，就是能把合适的人聚在一起做有意义的事，并且乐在其中。

So you so so now what I'm doing is I'm looking for the connection between those things Yes. And saying, okay, that's the common factor. Right? Which is you that where you find great joy is when you can bring the right people together to do something that matters and have a a ton of fun doing it.

是的。明白吗？差不多就是

Yes. Okay? And that's sort

你的人生目标，就是把人们聚集起来，共同完成超越个人的事业，并享受这个过程。对。如果你生命中的每件事都能这样...就是那个...我们称之为旋转木马。对。

of your your purpose in life, is to bring people together to do something bigger than themselves and have a good time doing it. Right. And if everything you do in your life, you can is is that is that is that Yeah. The We go to call merry-go-round. Yeah.

而你生活中的一切都像那个旋转平台，你...那就是旋转木马的本质。是的。所以你的机会就是提醒自己这一点。对吧？无论是买个乐高旋转木马，还是挂张旋转木马照片，或者就...

The the and everything in your life is like that roundabout, you you you that is what a game on is. Yeah. And so the opportunity for you is to remind yourself of that. Right? So I whether you get a Lego merry-go-round or a picture of a merry-go-round or just you that merry-go-round

哦，这个...我喜欢这种有情怀的东西。对吧？

Oh, this is I like this is I like sentimental things. Right?

这个旋转木马就是你的护身符。它是提醒你今天为何起床的东西。你人生只想不知疲倦地打造这个旋转木马。对吧？关键在于你有远见。

This is the merry-go-round is it's your it's your talisman. It's your it's the thing that reminds you of why you get out of bed today. All you wanna do in life is work tirelessly to create the merry-go-round. Right? And and the thing is is because you're you have vision.

我们要让这东西飞起来。

We're gonna make this thing fly.

没错。

Yeah.

明白吗？所以人们来了，你，你，你，还有你都参与进来。对。懂了吗？嗯。

Okay? So people go, And you go, you, you, you, and you. Yeah. Okay? Mhmm.

现在他们都加入进来，你玩得超开心。不管最终成功还是失败，反正它没飞起来。

And now they're all coming in, and you're having a blast. And whether it succeeds or fails, it didn't fly.

它没有飞起来。它没有飞起来。确实没有。

It did not fly. It did not fly. It did not.

它确实没飞起来。老实说，这其实是失败了。但这并不重要，因为过程中的团结与乐趣，以及那个愿景本身，已让一切值得——你从未说过任何丧气话，而我他妈当时表现得超棒。不，重点不在这里。

It did not fly. So it actually failed, if we're really honest with ourselves. But it didn't matter because it was the joy of the together and the fun, even with the vision that made it worth you'd never said at any point, and I freaking nailed it. No. That's not the point.

对吧？重点从来不是结果。不，重点是人。

Right? The point wasn't the result. No. The point was the people

结果只是额外奖赏。我常这么说。结果不过是锦上添花。

Outcome is a bonus. I always say this. The outcome is a bonus.

于是这一章落幕了。童年的故事逐渐淡去，但其中的教诲长存，承载着我们直至重逢之日。

And so this chapter ends. Childhood stories fade, but their lessons remain, carrying us until we meet again.