从「上瘾模型」到「专注力训练」，如何在被算法掌控的世界里重拾主动权？| 英文访谈 S9E33

It's forethought, and that's the way we should do a lot of the important things in our life.

It's forethought, and that's the way we should do a lot of the important things in our life.

Now, that requires some work, a lot of people are like, I'm too busy, I I don't have time for this stuff, and they just go with the flow, they do what society tells them to do.

Now, that requires some work, a lot of people are like, I'm too busy, I I don't have time for this stuff, and they just go with the flow, they do what society tells them to do.

And that's why they get mediocre results.

And that's why they get mediocre results.

So, what we have to do is to have uh back back to the question around emotion regulation, is realize that distraction is always an escape from discomfort.

So, what we have to do is to have uh back back to the question around emotion regulation, is realize that distraction is always an escape from discomfort.

So what am I gonna do?

So what am I gonna do?

How do I prepare in advance, knowing that this task is gonna be difficult?

How do I prepare in advance, knowing that this task is gonna be difficult?

I know I'm not gonna feel like going to the gym.

I know I'm not gonna feel like going to the gym.

I know that working on that book is difficult.

I know that working on that book is difficult.

What tools will I have in place?

What tools will I have in place?

So that when I don't feel like it, when I don't wanna do it, cause it's hard, what do I do?

So that when I don't feel like it, when I don't wanna do it, cause it's hard, what do I do?

The default is to escape.

The default is to escape.

The default is, let me just check the news. I'll worry about somebody's problems.

The default is, let me just check the news. I'll worry about somebody's problems.

Yeah, scroll on TikTok, watch a YouTube video, look at sports, whatever, to escape the discomfort.

Yeah, scroll on TikTok, watch a YouTube video, look at sports, whatever, to escape the discomfort.

I think that for most people, that's a big revelation, when they think uhWait a minute, I'm actually checking TikTok, not because TikTok is so interesting.

I think that for most people, that's a big revelation, when they think uhWait a minute, I'm actually checking TikTok, not because TikTok is so interesting.

I'm going to TikTok because what I'm working on is so boring.

I'm going to TikTok because what I'm working on is so boring.

True.

True.

That's the real reason.

That's the real reason.

OK, so wake up, realize that's why you're doing it. There's nothing on TikTok that's so amazing.

OK, so wake up, realize that's why you're doing it. There's nothing on TikTok that's so amazing.

It's just that what you're working on sucks, it's hard.

It's just that what you're working on sucks, it's hard.

So, instead what we need to do is to figure out, when I feel like escaping the task at hand, what do I do instead of going on TikTok?

So, instead what we need to do is to figure out, when I feel like escaping the task at hand, what do I do instead of going on TikTok?

And so that's where in the book, in Distractible, I give over a dozen different tools that you can use, techniques that you can use, that instantly come to mind, that what you will do instead.

And so that's where in the book, in Distractible, I give over a dozen different tools that you can use, techniques that you can use, that instantly come to mind, that what you will do instead.

Let me give you one example, OK?

Let me give you one example, OK?

So, uh, I've been a professional author now for over 15 years now, and Every day when I write, all I want to do is get distracted.

So, uh, I've been a professional author now for over 15 years now, and Every day when I write, all I want to do is get distracted.

I wanna check email, I wanna go uh ask ChatGPT something, I wanna look at YouTube videos.

I wanna check email, I wanna go uh ask ChatGPT something, I wanna look at YouTube videos.

I also work from home when I'm in in the US, and in China, I work withuh, my team in office, so, it's really hard for me to be in the US, yeah, to work alone by myself.

I also work from home when I'm in in the US, and in China, I work withuh, my team in office, so, it's really hard for me to be in the US, yeah, to work alone by myself.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

So, me, me too.

So, me, me too.

I I I work on my own, and it's very easy for me to do something else.

I I I work on my own, and it's very easy for me to do something else.

So what do I do about that?

So what do I do about that?

I have a series of tools that I know I can use whenever I feel like I need to escape.

I have a series of tools that I know I can use whenever I feel like I need to escape.

So as opposed to going on YouTube or TikTok, or checking the news or whatever, Here's what I do instead.

So as opposed to going on YouTube or TikTok, or checking the news or whatever, Here's what I do instead.

One of the one of my favorite techniques is called the 10 minute rule.

One of the one of my favorite techniques is called the 10 minute rule.

The 10 minute rule says that I can give in to any distraction.

The 10 minute rule says that I can give in to any distraction.

OK, I can do whatever that thing is that I'm that I want to do, whether it's Check email or the news or whatever, I can do it, but not right now.

OK, I can do whatever that thing is that I'm that I want to do, whether it's Check email or the news or whatever, I can do it, but not right now.

I have to wait 10 minutes.

I have to wait 10 minutes.

Hmm.

Hmm.

So what I'll do is I'll set, I'll set alarm on my phone or my watch, and say, OK, set a timer for 10 minutes.

So what I'll do is I'll set, I'll set alarm on my phone or my watch, and say, OK, set a timer for 10 minutes.

And now I have a choice to make.

And now I have a choice to make.

At any time, I can either get back to the writing, or I can do what's called surf the urge.

At any time, I can either get back to the writing, or I can do what's called surf the urge.

Surfing the urge acknowledges that these uncomfortable sensations, the boredom, the loneliness, the fatigue, the uncertainty The anxiety, those sensations are temporary.

Surfing the urge acknowledges that these uncomfortable sensations, the boredom, the loneliness, the fatigue, the uncertainty The anxiety, those sensations are temporary.

But that's not how we think of them.

But that's not how we think of them.

When you experience boredom, or loneliness, or difficulty, or fatigue, it feels like it's always gonna be there.

When you experience boredom, or loneliness, or difficulty, or fatigue, it feels like it's always gonna be there.

But that's not true.

But that's not true.

This is a trick that the brain plays on us.

This is a trick that the brain plays on us.

We think we're always gonna feel that way, but it's not true.

We think we're always gonna feel that way, but it's not true.

What you have to do instead is to realize that these emotions, they crest And then they subside, just like a wave.

What you have to do instead is to realize that these emotions, they crest And then they subside, just like a wave.

And so what you have to do is to surf that urge, just like a surfer on a surfboard.

And so what you have to do is to surf that urge, just like a surfer on a surfboard.

And so there's various different techniques you can use.

And so there's various different techniques you can use.

One of my favorites is a mantra.

One of my favorites is a mantra.

Now, my mantra, I'll I'll share it with you.

Now, my mantra, I'll I'll share it with you.

You can steal it, you can make up your own.

You can steal it, you can make up your own.

Here's what I tell myself.

Here's what I tell myself.

I close my eyes, I take a deep breath, and I remind myself this mantra.

I close my eyes, I take a deep breath, and I remind myself this mantra.

This is what it feels like to get better, this is what it feels like to get better.

This is what it feels like to get better, this is what it feels like to get better.

And just saying that 2, 3, 4 times, just taking a deep breath, waiting for a minute.

And just saying that 2, 3, 4 times, just taking a deep breath, waiting for a minute.

OK, and now I can get back to the task at hand.

OK, and now I can get back to the task at hand.

And sometimes I literally sit there for 10 minutes like this.

And sometimes I literally sit there for 10 minutes like this.

Ha, and that's OK.

Ha, and that's OK.

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

Sometimes that happens, that's fine.

Sometimes that happens, that's fine.

But nine times out of ten, I remind myself, this is what it feels like to get better.

But nine times out of ten, I remind myself, this is what it feels like to get better.

I don't need to expect it to be easy, it's supposed to be hard.

I don't need to expect it to be easy, it's supposed to be hard.

Then I just, I'm creating that space.

Then I just, I'm creating that space.

Between that impulse, to let me just go check email, let me just go do that thing, I create that space between my impulse and what I really want.

Between that impulse, to let me just go check email, let me just go do that thing, I create that space between my impulse and what I really want.

And by doing that, nine times out of ten, I get back to the task at hand, and so what happens is over time, that the 10 minute rule becomes 12 minutes, becomes 15 minutes, becomes 20 minutes.

And by doing that, nine times out of ten, I get back to the task at hand, and so what happens is over time, that the 10 minute rule becomes 12 minutes, becomes 15 minutes, becomes 20 minutes.

and now I realize wait a minute.

and now I realize wait a minute.

The TikTok doesn't control me, the YouTube doesn't control me, email doesn't control me.

The TikTok doesn't control me, the YouTube doesn't control me, email doesn't control me.

This is in my power, and now I can get longer and longer before I have to give into the distraction.

This is in my power, and now I can get longer and longer before I have to give into the distraction.

So, that's just one technique out of dozens that you can use that I describe in the book.

So, that's just one technique out of dozens that you can use that I describe in the book.

But that's one that I that I use quite a bit, still today.

But that's one that I that I use quite a bit, still today.

I'll give out a try.

I'll give out a try.

So before I follow ChatGPT's um suggestion like, do a little bit, really easy task to begin with.

So before I follow ChatGPT's um suggestion like, do a little bit, really easy task to begin with.

And then you're like kind of getting into the working mode, and then you can just um start doing more difficult and complex in the thing that you don't wanna get into.

And then you're like kind of getting into the working mode, and then you can just um start doing more difficult and complex in the thing that you don't wanna get into.

Well, you can.

Well, you can.

Everybody is a little different in terms of what they wanna work on, when.

Everybody is a little different in terms of what they wanna work on, when.

The, it's not so much about scheduling based on the difficulty per se.

The, it's not so much about scheduling based on the difficulty per se.

uh, Some people like to do this technique called eat the frog, where you do the hardest thing first.

uh, Some people like to do this technique called eat the frog, where you do the hardest thing first.

Some people like to work on easy stuff, and then get going.

Some people like to work on easy stuff, and then get going.

I think I I don't necessarily think, and you you you can play with that.

I think I I don't necessarily think, and you you you can play with that.

What's important is that you set aside the time.

What's important is that you set aside the time.

The big mistake that a lot of people make is that they keep a to-do list.

The big mistake that a lot of people make is that they keep a to-do list.

And a to-do list on its own is one of the worst things you can do for a personal productivity. It's terrible. Because a to-do list has no constraints.

And a to-do list on its own is one of the worst things you can do for a personal productivity. It's terrible. Because a to-do list has no constraints.

uh, To do list is just a register of things you want to have done.

uh, To do list is just a register of things you want to have done.

But if you have outputs, where's the input?

But if you have outputs, where's the input?

Right?

Right?

So so if if if umuh, My, if my daughter has a birthday, or your daughter has a birthday, right?

So so if if if umuh, My, if my daughter has a birthday, or your daughter has a birthday, right?

And you go to the baker, and you say, hey, I need a bunch of cupcakes.

And you go to the baker, and you say, hey, I need a bunch of cupcakes.

I need a dozen cupcakes.

I need a dozen cupcakes.

The baker is gonna say, OK, to make a dozen cupcakes, I need sugar, I need flour, I need butter, I need the inputs in order to make the output of the dozen cupcakes.

The baker is gonna say, OK, to make a dozen cupcakes, I need sugar, I need flour, I need butter, I need the inputs in order to make the output of the dozen cupcakes.

But for knowledge workers, what's the input?

But for knowledge workers, what's the input?

We know what the output is, the output is all that stuff on our to-do list, but what's the input?

We know what the output is, the output is all that stuff on our to-do list, but what's the input?

The input is just two things, it's not butter, sugar and flour, it's time and and attention.

The input is just two things, it's not butter, sugar and flour, it's time and and attention.

That's it.

That's it.

So, where is it?

So, where is it?

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

It's not on a to-do list.

It's not on a to-do list.

That's output.

That's output.

The input is on your calendar.

The input is on your calendar.

So, when you say, hey, I need to work on this big important task.

So, when you say, hey, I need to work on this big important task.

To just put on your to do list is stupid.

To just put on your to do list is stupid.

It's not gonna get done.

It's not gonna get done.

It has to be in your calendar.

It has to be in your calendar.

Now, here's here's the most important thing.

Now, here's here's the most important thing.

Many people make this mistake when they start time boxing, and they say, OK, I'm gonna work on this task for 30 minutes, for an hour, whatever.

Many people make this mistake when they start time boxing, and they say, OK, I'm gonna work on this task for 30 minutes, for an hour, whatever.

They think that to succeed, they have to finish the task.

They think that to succeed, they have to finish the task.

Because to-do lists have trained us stupidly, to measure our self worth by how many cute little boxes we checked off.

Because to-do lists have trained us stupidly, to measure our self worth by how many cute little boxes we checked off.

Big mistake.

Big mistake.

I used to do this.

I used to do this.

Let let me let me tell you how foolish this is.

Let let me let me tell you how foolish this is.

I used to do a task, and then remember, oh my gosh, I forgot to put it on my to-do list.

I used to do a task, and then remember, oh my gosh, I forgot to put it on my to-do list.

So I would go back on my to-do list, just so I can write it down and check it off.

So I would go back on my to-do list, just so I can write it down and check it off.

You've done this too?

You've done this too?

I have that.

I have that.

Yeah, ha ha ha.

Yeah, ha ha ha.

It's it's so silly, because we think, oh, look how many things I accomplished.

It's it's so silly, because we think, oh, look how many things I accomplished.

But if we're honest.

But if we're honest.

You get your doberman.

You get your doberman.

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, it it feels good.

Yeah, it it feels good.

But to be honest, what did we do?

But to be honest, what did we do?

We did the easy stuff, we did the urgent stuff.

We did the easy stuff, we did the urgent stuff.

We didn't do the hard and important work we need to do to move our lives and career forward, right?

We didn't do the hard and important work we need to do to move our lives and career forward, right?

So it's it's it's pointless, because it's you don't get extra points for doing easy things, right?

So it's it's it's pointless, because it's you don't get extra points for doing easy things, right?

That's not the stuff that really moves your your life forward.

That's not the stuff that really moves your your life forward.

So instead, this is very very important.

So instead, this is very very important.

When you time box a task, and you say I'm gonna work on this thing for an hour, whatever the case might be, it's not about finishing.

When you time box a task, and you say I'm gonna work on this thing for an hour, whatever the case might be, it's not about finishing.

There is no requirement to finish.

There is no requirement to finish.

The only requirement is to work on that task or do that thing for as long as you said you would without distraction.

The only requirement is to work on that task or do that thing for as long as you said you would without distraction.

That's it, not about finishing.

That's it, not about finishing.

Working on that task for as long as you said you would without distraction.

Working on that task for as long as you said you would without distraction.

Why is that so much better?

Why is that so much better?

Because that is the only way you will know how long things take.

Because that is the only way you will know how long things take.

The biggest problem with with how people manage their time today is that when you use this stupid to-do list technique, and you check off a bunch of cubby boxes, you have no idea how long things take.

The biggest problem with with how people manage their time today is that when you use this stupid to-do list technique, and you check off a bunch of cubby boxes, you have no idea how long things take.

Here's what happens.

Here's what happens.

Say, okay, I've got this big project I need to work on.

Say, okay, I've got this big project I need to work on.

Okay, I work on it for 5 minutes, and then, oh, you know what?

Okay, I work on it for 5 minutes, and then, oh, you know what?

I really could use some tea.

I really could use some tea.

Let me just go get some tea for a minute, and oh, there's Billy at the at the water cooler.

Let me just go get some tea for a minute, and oh, there's Billy at the at the water cooler.

Hey, how's it going?

Hey, how's it going?

And you start chit chatting, and let me just check email for a quick minute, and Oh my gosh, look what happened in the news.

And you start chit chatting, and let me just check email for a quick minute, and Oh my gosh, look what happened in the news.

Wait, what am I working on again?

Wait, what am I working on again?

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

Totally forgot.

Totally forgot.

And so you have no idea how wrong things taken, and it turns out on average.

And so you have no idea how wrong things taken, and it turns out on average.

Things take three times longer than most people estimate.

Things take three times longer than most people estimate.

So, when people say, OK, how long will this take?

So, when people say, OK, how long will this take?

It turns out, it actually takes them three times longer to finish.

It turns out, it actually takes them three times longer to finish.

Because they have no clue how long things take.

Because they have no clue how long things take.

Whereas, when you say to yourself, OK, I'm gonna work on this task, and do nothing but, I'm not gonna do anything but work on that task.

Whereas, when you say to yourself, OK, I'm gonna work on this task, and do nothing but, I'm not gonna do anything but work on that task.

For 30 minutes, that's it.

For 30 minutes, that's it.

No email, no distraction, nothing but that task.

No email, no distraction, nothing but that task.

Now, I can say, OK, after 30 minutes, how much should I do?

Now, I can say, OK, after 30 minutes, how much should I do?

Oh, I have to make this presentation.

Oh, I have to make this presentation.

All right, well, I know the presentation needs to be about 30 slides.

All right, well, I know the presentation needs to be about 30 slides.

And look, I finished about three slides, so that means I need 9 more time boxes in order to finish the entire task.

And look, I finished about three slides, so that means I need 9 more time boxes in order to finish the entire task.

Now I have a feedback loop.

Now I have a feedback loop.

Whereas with a to do list, you have no idea how long things take.

Whereas with a to do list, you have no idea how long things take.

So, time boxing is much much better than to do list.

So, time boxing is much much better than to do list.

So, if you have a planner, you take out the planner every day, and you say, OK, I've got, these are my working hours.

So, if you have a planner, you take out the planner every day, and you say, OK, I've got, these are my working hours.

How much time do I want to spend on on email?

How much time do I want to spend on on email?

How much time do I need to spend in a meeting?

How much time do I need to spend in a meeting?

How much time do I want to spend at the gym?

How much time do I want to spend at the gym?

How much time do I wanna be with my kids?

How much time do I wanna be with my kids?

How much time do I even need to spend reading?

How much time do I even need to spend reading?

All the things you wanna do, this is this is where the second step comes in, of turning your values into time.

All the things you wanna do, this is this is where the second step comes in, of turning your values into time.

What are values?

What are values?

Values are attributes of the person you want to become.

Values are attributes of the person you want to become.

So, people spend their time according to how other people want them to spend their time.

So, people spend their time according to how other people want them to spend their time.

Very few people take a step back and say, wait a minute.

Very few people take a step back and say, wait a minute.

How do I wanna spend my time?

How do I wanna spend my time?

And so that's where we have to make a trade off, because you can't do everything.

And so that's where we have to make a trade off, because you can't do everything.

You can have everything, and you can do everything, not at the same time.

You can have everything, and you can do everything, not at the same time.

You can't work on a big project and be with your daughter at the same time.

You can't work on a big project and be with your daughter at the same time.

Doesn't work that way.

Doesn't work that way.

You can't be at the gym, and ru- and uh uh you know also have a meeting with your friends at the same time.

You can't be at the gym, and ru- and uh uh you know also have a meeting with your friends at the same time.

It doesn't work.

It doesn't work.

It's it's very difficult.

It's it's very difficult.

You have to, you can have it all and do it all, not at the same time.

You have to, you can have it all and do it all, not at the same time.

So what time boxing forces you to do is to say, OK, I want this much time here and that much time there.

So what time boxing forces you to do is to say, OK, I want this much time here and that much time there.

Invariably, you won't be able to do it all all, because it makes you make those tradeoffs, which a to do list doesn't make you do.

Invariably, you won't be able to do it all all, because it makes you make those tradeoffs, which a to do list doesn't make you do.

And that's why at the end of the day, you're exhausted, and you still feel like you haven't accomplished very much.

And that's why at the end of the day, you're exhausted, and you still feel like you haven't accomplished very much.

True, ha ha ha.

True, ha ha ha.

I wanna um step back a little bit into the the AI era, how we build product.

I wanna um step back a little bit into the the AI era, how we build product.

So, you were you were saying that um technology company wanting to use their product more and more and more.

So, you were you were saying that um technology company wanting to use their product more and more and more.

I'm not sure you familiar with this uh new product called Tolan T O L A N.

I'm not sure you familiar with this uh new product called Tolan T O L A N.

It's like AI companion thing.

It's like AI companion thing.

He has this kind of like human um latency thing.

He has this kind of like human um latency thing.

Like for example, I was raising caterpillars with my daughter for monarch caterpillars.

Like for example, I was raising caterpillars with my daughter for monarch caterpillars.

And then, like a couple days later, he sent me this really nice podcast about this Migration of the monarch, and then today, he sent me a 60 minutes um documentary about the the whole like Mexico tour.

And then, like a couple days later, he sent me this really nice podcast about this Migration of the monarch, and then today, he sent me a 60 minutes um documentary about the the whole like Mexico tour.

and how this monarch everywhere in the mountain.

and how this monarch everywhere in the mountain.

It tell me like don't do it all at once, and then give me like Kind of provoke my curiosities, and then it remembers my preferences quite a lot.

It tell me like don't do it all at once, and then give me like Kind of provoke my curiosities, and then it remembers my preferences quite a lot.

I I've been really like uh trying to figure out what's the next generation product will be like.

I I've been really like uh trying to figure out what's the next generation product will be like.

It's not like doom scrolling, like mine is scrolling, it's this kind of thing like just provoke you.

It's not like doom scrolling, like mine is scrolling, it's this kind of thing like just provoke you.

In the right way, not the other way.

In the right way, not the other way.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I I I think this is fantastic.

I I I think this is fantastic.

I mean, I think this is this is exactly what I predicted when I wrote Hooked, that the invest, so there's four, the so now we're back to book number one, not book number two.

I mean, I think this is this is exactly what I predicted when I wrote Hooked, that the invest, so there's four, the so now we're back to book number one, not book number two.

uh, Where this is for product makers, so there's four steps to the hook, the last step of the hook model is the investment phase.

uh, Where this is for product makers, so there's four steps to the hook, the last step of the hook model is the investment phase.

Where the investment makes the product better and better with use, and I predicted back in 2014 that as uh technology improves, I wasn't calling it AI back then, but we did have algorithms, and I knew what what what would happen with these algorithms.

Where the investment makes the product better and better with use, and I predicted back in 2014 that as uh technology improves, I wasn't calling it AI back then, but we did have algorithms, and I knew what what what would happen with these algorithms.

Is that they would predict what data sources would be necessary to make the product better and better with use.

Is that they would predict what data sources would be necessary to make the product better and better with use.

So just like how TikTok and Instagram based on your past viewing behavior will serve you new content.

So just like how TikTok and Instagram based on your past viewing behavior will serve you new content.

I think we're gonna see this with every product and service, enterprise, consumer, all kinds of products.

I think we're gonna see this with every product and service, enterprise, consumer, all kinds of products.

We'll have to use that data to improve with use, and this is really a Characteristic of habit forming products is that unlike products in the physical world, right, your clothing, your couch, your car, all of those things depreciate, they lose value, the more you use it.hmm, Habit forming products do the opposite, right? They.

We'll have to use that data to improve with use, and this is really a Characteristic of habit forming products is that unlike products in the physical world, right, your clothing, your couch, your car, all of those things depreciate, they lose value, the more you use it.hmm, Habit forming products do the opposite, right? They.

get better and better the more you use it.

get better and better the more you use it.

So what you're seeing with this product, is that the more you use it, the more it's learning about you.

So what you're seeing with this product, is that the more you use it, the more it's learning about you.

And then it can tailor the information that it's providing for you next.

And then it can tailor the information that it's providing for you next.

It's actually improving your life, because it knows what you're likely to want to see.

It's actually improving your life, because it knows what you're likely to want to see.

Yeah, um, sometimes give me like academic papers to read.

Yeah, um, sometimes give me like academic papers to read.

haha, This is, I I would like to see more and more products like that.

haha, This is, I I would like to see more and more products like that.

Yeah, do you do you have any like AI product like that you like so far in the AI agent era?

Yeah, do you do you have any like AI product like that you like so far in the AI agent era?

Well, I I think we're gonna see a lot more uh of that type of personalize, personalization in everything.

Well, I I think we're gonna see a lot more uh of that type of personalize, personalization in everything.

I think I think consumers are gonna get very impatient.

I think I think consumers are gonna get very impatient.

If companies don't do this, right?

If companies don't do this, right?

Like, I was just buying uh airline tickets.

Like, I was just buying uh airline tickets.

Well, how many times do I have to enter in the same information?

Well, how many times do I have to enter in the same information?

uh, You know, for every time I buy a ticket for different, like This type of stuff should be as easy as talking to a travel agent, and saying, OK, here's my here's my information.

uh, You know, for every time I buy a ticket for different, like This type of stuff should be as easy as talking to a travel agent, and saying, OK, here's my here's my information.

You know this already.

You know this already.

Like, why do I have to keep keep entering it again and again?

Like, why do I have to keep keep entering it again and again?

Anyway, you get the point.

Anyway, you get the point.

Like across companies, I think across engagement experiences.

Like across companies, I think across engagement experiences.

These type of products should get better and better and smarter and smarter with use.

These type of products should get better and better and smarter and smarter with use.

I think among financial services, there's so much opportunity to anticipate, you know, for example, when when you have an unusual Transaction, and all the fraud alerts you get, you know that that type of stuff should get a lot smarter based on previous uh behavior.

I think among financial services, there's so much opportunity to anticipate, you know, for example, when when you have an unusual Transaction, and all the fraud alerts you get, you know that that type of stuff should get a lot smarter based on previous uh behavior.

as opposed to just blanket uh you know, the the having people having to to write in or or call in.

as opposed to just blanket uh you know, the the having people having to to write in or or call in.

uh, I think all s- education products, I'm particularly excited about.

uh, I think all s- education products, I'm particularly excited about.

I think online education is about to have an a tremendous revolution, because you know, s- sitting uh as a student and just listening to some boring teacher blah blah blah on, is is not engaging.

I think online education is about to have an a tremendous revolution, because you know, s- sitting uh as a student and just listening to some boring teacher blah blah blah on, is is not engaging.

That's not the way.

That's not the way.

uh, Humans are meant to learn, humans are meant to learn through interacting, through the a tutor model.

uh, Humans are meant to learn, humans are meant to learn through interacting, through the a tutor model.

So, I'm very very excited about the future of education, and hopefully, you know, your your daughter's uh young enough to experience this in in in her lifetime.

So, I'm very very excited about the future of education, and hopefully, you know, your your daughter's uh young enough to experience this in in in her lifetime.

Where I think students will start having some kind of individual AI tutor, that will take very boring subjects, and make them interesting, as they all should be, because all of us have this spark of human curiosity and creativity.

Where I think students will start having some kind of individual AI tutor, that will take very boring subjects, and make them interesting, as they all should be, because all of us have this spark of human curiosity and creativity.

But we're kind of squashed into a little box of yeah, but you have to sit here and, you know, do what everybody else does all the same time, all the same speed.

But we're kind of squashed into a little box of yeah, but you have to sit here and, you know, do what everybody else does all the same time, all the same speed.

And I think that that should be done away with.

And I think that that should be done away with.

We should go back to what existed before.

We should go back to what existed before.

Institutionalized learning, where, you know, if you think about Mozart, if you think about Newton, if you think about Einstein, you know, the these people learn because they were curious.

Institutionalized learning, where, you know, if you think about Mozart, if you think about Newton, if you think about Einstein, you know, the these people learn because they were curious.

They didn't have a homework assignment.

They didn't have a homework assignment.

They wanted to know something.

They wanted to know something.

Right, very adaptive algorithm for individuals, right?

Right, very adaptive algorithm for individuals, right?

Exactly, and we're starting to see like alpha school for example, and there's, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly, and we're starting to see like alpha school for example, and there's, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I think we're gonna see a lot more now.

I think we're gonna see a lot more now.

I don't know if the legal structures in place, and the societal structures, I I I think unfortunately School is more about childcare and babysitting than it is about learning.

I don't know if the legal structures in place, and the societal structures, I I I think unfortunately School is more about childcare and babysitting than it is about learning.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I totally agree.

I totally agree.

I totally agree.

I totally agree.

Yeah, so so society kind of has to accept that that's not the only reason we send children into this box that we call school.

Yeah, so so society kind of has to accept that that's not the only reason we send children into this box that we call school.

uh, That actually it's about promoting curiosity and creativity, but if we don't do that, we're just gonna lose yet another generation.

uh, That actually it's about promoting curiosity and creativity, but if we don't do that, we're just gonna lose yet another generation.

I mean, for even, you know, even in our generation, how many subjects.

I mean, for even, you know, even in our generation, how many subjects.

Do you never wanna see ever again?

Do you never wanna see ever again?

Like I had terrible physics teacher in high school.

Like I had terrible physics teacher in high school.

I never wanna learn physics ever again, because it completely destroyed the joy of it.

I never wanna learn physics ever again, because it completely destroyed the joy of it.

But it's a beautiful subject, and I'll never get to experience it.

But it's a beautiful subject, and I'll never get to experience it.

Like who knows?

Like who knows?

Like, I might have I might have really enjoyed it.

Like, I might have I might have really enjoyed it.

And learned a lot from it, but because I had a really bad teacher.

And learned a lot from it, but because I had a really bad teacher.

I have another question that I am dying to ask you.

I have another question that I am dying to ask you.

So, for example, like there's really valuable like deep conversation like what we're having right now, is podcast form, like long- or video form.

So, for example, like there's really valuable like deep conversation like what we're having right now, is podcast form, like long- or video form.

And there's also like short form like TikTok, those kind of.

And there's also like short form like TikTok, those kind of.

What do you think there are long term consequence of this kind of like a fragmented attention?

What do you think there are long term consequence of this kind of like a fragmented attention?

um, Is there a way to design product kind of likeuh, Combine stickiness and depth.

um, Is there a way to design product kind of likeuh, Combine stickiness and depth.

Yeah, yeah, I think there there is, I think you know, typically, technologies don't die typically.

Yeah, yeah, I think there there is, I think you know, typically, technologies don't die typically.

uh, So, I don't think that short form will kill long form.

uh, So, I don't think that short form will kill long form.

I don't think that video Kills the book.

I don't think that video Kills the book.

uh, I think that there's a different place for different technologies.

uh, I think that there's a different place for different technologies.

So, for example, take chopsticks, OK?

So, for example, take chopsticks, OK?

uh, Chopsticks were invented way before the fork.

uh, Chopsticks were invented way before the fork.

uh, Almost everybody who uses chopsticks has seen the fork.

uh, Almost everybody who uses chopsticks has seen the fork.

The fork is a newer technology, and yet we use both.

The fork is a newer technology, and yet we use both.

So, the fork didn't replace chopsticks, it's that when you eat some foods, you eat them with a fork.

So, the fork didn't replace chopsticks, it's that when you eat some foods, you eat them with a fork.

When you eat other foods, you eat them with chopsticks, based on the food type and the context.

When you eat other foods, you eat them with chopsticks, based on the food type and the context.

So, I think that there will be a place for long form, there will be a place for short form, there will be a place for whatever's coming after uh both of these mediums, and uh we will use the technology for what it does best. So, there're definitely some contexts where a.

So, I think that there will be a place for long form, there will be a place for short form, there will be a place for whatever's coming after uh both of these mediums, and uh we will use the technology for what it does best. So, there're definitely some contexts where a.

paper book and uh uh uh pen is very useful.

paper book and uh uh uh pen is very useful.

There's other places where a 30 second TikTok clip is more useful, based on what it's there for.

There's other places where a 30 second TikTok clip is more useful, based on what it's there for.

Right, but don't you worry that there's people all like kind of, especially young people getting their news from like TikTok, they're don't have time or they don't form the habit to really kind of complex topics.

Right, but don't you worry that there's people all like kind of, especially young people getting their news from like TikTok, they're don't have time or they don't form the habit to really kind of complex topics.

Do you think that'll be a problem?

Do you think that'll be a problem?

I I think whenever there is a proliferation of a new medium, we're gonna find the the goods and the bads of that medium, and and what we're what we're experiencing is The repercussions of a blessing.

I I think whenever there is a proliferation of a new medium, we're gonna find the the goods and the bads of that medium, and and what we're what we're experiencing is The repercussions of a blessing.

The blessing is that for the first time in history, we have literacy rates, we have technology adoption rates, we, and we have leisure rates where people can spend time doing this kind of stuff.

The blessing is that for the first time in history, we have literacy rates, we have technology adoption rates, we, and we have leisure rates where people can spend time doing this kind of stuff.

And so what's gonna happen invariably is that sometimes people see things that you don't agree with, and maybe they make things you don't agree with.

And so what's gonna happen invariably is that sometimes people see things that you don't agree with, and maybe they make things you don't agree with.

But I believe that that's a good thing, that the antidote To one type of speech is the other type of speech.

But I believe that that's a good thing, that the antidote To one type of speech is the other type of speech.

We need both sides.

We need both sides.

We need that debate.

We need that debate.

uh, We need different perspectives.

uh, We need different perspectives.

As long as we can guarantee that there's free access to different perspectives.

As long as we can guarantee that there's free access to different perspectives.

I I think that's how we solve this problem at top.

I I think that's how we solve this problem at top.

Not always immediately, sometimes it takes cycles of us pursuing the wrong path to figure out why that path was wrong.

Not always immediately, sometimes it takes cycles of us pursuing the wrong path to figure out why that path was wrong.

This is, you know, how how human beings have always plotted through history is by trying one idea, seeing what happens.

This is, you know, how how human beings have always plotted through history is by trying one idea, seeing what happens.

If it doesn't work, we try a different idea.

If it doesn't work, we try a different idea.

But over the long arc of history, this is this is what happens.

But over the long arc of history, this is this is what happens.

So, I don't necessarily think this is something we need to be afraid of.

So, I don't necessarily think this is something we need to be afraid of.

Of course, there's certain types of speech we should, I think, regulate, right?

Of course, there's certain types of speech we should, I think, regulate, right?

You can't incite violence, for example.

You can't incite violence, for example.

So, I I think there is, you know, some speech that that at least for my American centric lens, I think uh should be off limits.

So, I I think there is, you know, some speech that that at least for my American centric lens, I think uh should be off limits.

But for the most part, I'm not really worried about how people spend their time online.

But for the most part, I'm not really worried about how people spend their time online.

uh, You know, with with within limits, of course.

uh, You know, with with within limits, of course.

I think by for the most part, it's a good thing to have diverse perspectives.

I think by for the most part, it's a good thing to have diverse perspectives.

I think uh the last uh couple question is I wanted to talk about how we raise the next generation back to the earlier topic.

I think uh the last uh couple question is I wanted to talk about how we raise the next generation back to the earlier topic.

um, So, in Destructible, you talk about agency, as we uh as the lever against distraction.

um, So, in Destructible, you talk about agency, as we uh as the lever against distraction.

But uh for kids or teenagers, how do we kind of help them to form that kind of agency when they like don't have it yet?

But uh for kids or teenagers, how do we kind of help them to form that kind of agency when they like don't have it yet?

Can you talk a little bit more about how we Help don't get distracted easily, and then how do we raise them properly?

Can you talk a little bit more about how we Help don't get distracted easily, and then how do we raise them properly?

Yeah, so I think we need to help them do the same thing we are struggling with.

Yeah, so I think we need to help them do the same thing we are struggling with.

I think everybody is struggling with distraction.

I think everybody is struggling with distraction.

I think one of the best things you can do as a parent, if you wanna raise undistractable kids, Is to be an indestructible parent.

I think one of the best things you can do as a parent, if you wanna raise undistractable kids, Is to be an indestructible parent.

You can't tell your kids stop playing video games, and meanwhile you're checking email on your phone.

You can't tell your kids stop playing video games, and meanwhile you're checking email on your phone.

It doesn't work that way.

It doesn't work that way.

You have to set the example.

You have to set the example.

And so, I think a lot of parents struggle with being vulnerable in front of their kids.

And so, I think a lot of parents struggle with being vulnerable in front of their kids.

They think they need to be perfect in front of their children. They can never make mistakes.

They think they need to be perfect in front of their children. They can never make mistakes.

Children need you to be vulnerable.

Children need you to be vulnerable.

They need you to say where you're struggling, especially if it's something they struggle with.

They need you to say where you're struggling, especially if it's something they struggle with.

uh, And you can't be a hypocrite.

uh, And you can't be a hypocrite.

So, the worst is to do one thing and say something else.

So, the worst is to do one thing and say something else.

The the second worse is to not admit that, hey, we're all struggling with this.

The the second worse is to not admit that, hey, we're all struggling with this.

So, it's OK to tell your kid, hey, look, these devices are super interesting.

So, it's OK to tell your kid, hey, look, these devices are super interesting.

I also love to use my phone, I also love to watch videos, I also like to play games, but there's other things I like to do with my time as well, be with you, be with my my parents.

I also love to use my phone, I also love to watch videos, I also like to play games, but there's other things I like to do with my time as well, be with you, be with my my parents.

be, you know, do the things that uh also help help me have a a fulfilling life.

be, you know, do the things that uh also help help me have a a fulfilling life.

And so doing it together, I think is is a key.

And so doing it together, I think is is a key.

Starting with those very same four steps.

Starting with those very same four steps.

So, step number one, mastering internal triggers.

So, step number one, mastering internal triggers.

So, if you want to help your child have the best possible future, You need to teach them how to deal with their emotions in a productive way.

So, if you want to help your child have the best possible future, You need to teach them how to deal with their emotions in a productive way.

That's absolutely critical.

That's absolutely critical.

uh, And understanding what's in their way, why are they using their devices in excess?

uh, And understanding what's in their way, why are they using their devices in excess?

Typically what's happening is for kids, is that when kids don't get what they need offline, they look for it online.

Typically what's happening is for kids, is that when kids don't get what they need offline, they look for it online.

So, when kids don't get enough time for play, I think this is this is a big problem in in uh in the industrialized world.

So, when kids don't get enough time for play, I think this is this is a big problem in in uh in the industrialized world.

Is that we so hyper regiment our children, between the test prep, and the swimming lessons, and the ballet, and all the things that we regiment our kids to do, we have no time For what I think is the most psychologically important thing for them to do, which is to play, just to play with other children. It's incredibly important.

Is that we so hyper regiment our children, between the test prep, and the swimming lessons, and the ballet, and all the things that we regiment our kids to do, we have no time For what I think is the most psychologically important thing for them to do, which is to play, just to play with other children. It's incredibly important.

and we have to, un- unfortunately, it doesn't just happen organically.

and we have to, un- unfortunately, it doesn't just happen organically.

We have to schedule time for them to have time to play.

We have to schedule time for them to have time to play.

That's where they learn their play, and their place in the world.

That's where they learn their play, and their place in the world.

So, when and what we find is, when children have that time to play, guess what? They don't want to use their devices.

So, when and what we find is, when children have that time to play, guess what? They don't want to use their devices.

Right, the problem is parents don't plan that time, they're lazy.

Right, the problem is parents don't plan that time, they're lazy.

They come home, and then they see their kid on their device, and they say, why are you on your phone?

They come home, and then they see their kid on their device, and they say, why are you on your phone?

Go do, go go read a book.

Go do, go go read a book.

Come on, would you have gone and read a book?

Come on, would you have gone and read a book?

No, but if a kid has the opportunity to play with their friends, that's typically what they wanna do.

No, but if a kid has the opportunity to play with their friends, that's typically what they wanna do.

So, I think that's that's very important to satisfy those psychological needs of free play.

So, I think that's that's very important to satisfy those psychological needs of free play.

To make sure that those uh internal triggers of of boredom and loneliness aren't satisfied online, they're satisfied through real world interaction.

To make sure that those uh internal triggers of of boredom and loneliness aren't satisfied online, they're satisfied through real world interaction.

Then scheduling the time, right?

Then scheduling the time, right?

Making time for traction, doing what you did of, hey, here's all the things you want to do with your time.

Making time for traction, doing what you did of, hey, here's all the things you want to do with your time.

There's nothing wrong with going on the device, but how does that fit into your day?

There's nothing wrong with going on the device, but how does that fit into your day?

Step number three, hacking back the external triggers.

Step number three, hacking back the external triggers.

This is very, very important.

This is very, very important.

The problem with technology and children Isn't so much the technology itself, it's what it displaces.

The problem with technology and children Isn't so much the technology itself, it's what it displaces.

So anything that beeps, buzzes or boops in the bedroom needs to be taken out.

So anything that beeps, buzzes or boops in the bedroom needs to be taken out.

Children should not have screens in the bedroom, they shouldn't have Television, they shouldn't have a radio, they shouldn't have a fish tank, they shouldn't sleep with pets.

Children should not have screens in the bedroom, they shouldn't have Television, they shouldn't have a radio, they shouldn't have a fish tank, they shouldn't sleep with pets.

Anything that disrupts sleep needs to be out of that child's room.

Anything that disrupts sleep needs to be out of that child's room.

That's a big big factor in terms of psychological well being.

That's a big big factor in terms of psychological well being.

Sleep is incredibly important.

Sleep is incredibly important.

Then the fourth step is preventing distraction with pacts, so teaching your child and yourself how to make these commitments that you will do what you say you're going to do.

Then the fourth step is preventing distraction with pacts, so teaching your child and yourself how to make these commitments that you will do what you say you're going to do.

And so these are the same four basic steps that I talk about in in- in the indestructible.

And so these are the same four basic steps that I talk about in in- in the indestructible.

That you can use on yourself, and of course we have to teach our children.

That you can use on yourself, and of course we have to teach our children.

Awesome, awesome.

Awesome, awesome.

Be vulnerable, and learn together with your child, and face the problem together, and then you will have a fine child.

Be vulnerable, and learn together with your child, and face the problem together, and then you will have a fine child.

And makes and make sure that you know what you're doing.

And makes and make sure that you know what you're doing.

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

Right, that you you read some books.

Right, that you you read some books.

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

On the read it.

On the read it.

Ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha.

Yes, read a book.

Yes, read a book.

But I think I think it's important.

But I think I think it's important.

I think the most important thing is is to not be scared of the technology.

I think the most important thing is is to not be scared of the technology.

I think the easiest thing to do is for a parent to say, well that didn't exist when I was a kid, so it's bad.

I think the easiest thing to do is for a parent to say, well that didn't exist when I was a kid, so it's bad.

This is always happened, right?

This is always happened, right?

It's called a moral panic.

It's called a moral panic.

And I think that's a big mistake, because what what are you teaching your kid, if you say, oh, get off technology, technology is melting your brain, it's bad for you.

And I think that's a big mistake, because what what are you teaching your kid, if you say, oh, get off technology, technology is melting your brain, it's bad for you.

Well, you're teaching them that that they shouldn't use it.

Well, you're teaching them that that they shouldn't use it.

The the jobs of the future require them to use these technologies.

The the jobs of the future require them to use these technologies.

We want our kids to be tech literate, or they'll be unemployed.

We want our kids to be tech literate, or they'll be unemployed.

I know, it's like Chinese parent.

I know, it's like Chinese parent.

Don't date anyone until you're graduate from college, like, find a spouse right now.

Don't date anyone until you're graduate from college, like, find a spouse right now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Well, well, where, why aren't you married yet?

Well, well, where, why aren't you married yet?

Well, cause you told me not to date anybody.

Well, cause you told me not to date anybody.

Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

So it's the same exact thing.

So it's the same exact thing.

We want them to be uh to be familiar with the technology, and to learn from a very early age.

We want them to be uh to be familiar with the technology, and to learn from a very early age.

How to say, OK, enough. Now I need to do something else.

How to say, OK, enough. Now I need to do something else.

Thank you so much, Nier, for joining us.

Thank you so much, Nier, for joining us.

um, You mentioned that there is tons of resources on your website, Nier and Far dot com, right?

um, You mentioned that there is tons of resources on your website, Nier and Far dot com, right?

Right, exactly.

Right, exactly.

That's right.

That's right.

So, it's Nier, spell like my first name, N-I-R, and Far dot com.

So, it's Nier, spell like my first name, N-I-R, and Far dot com.

Ok, we'll put in our show note, and then if anyone like, want more information from you, and there's books, and there're tons of resources.

Ok, we'll put in our show note, and then if anyone like, want more information from you, and there's books, and there're tons of resources.

um, Thank you so much.

um, Thank you so much.

Thank you again. My pleasure. Thank you. Take care. Take care.

Thank you again. My pleasure. Thank you. Take care. Take care.

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