我们的爱能否跨越差异？

嗯。

Yeah.

我们正在接近了。

We're getting there.

嗯。

Yeah.

还有呢？

What else?

所以我们有政治、宗教、酷儿身份。

So we have politics, religion, queerness.

还有呢？

What else?

她的家人显然更自由派。

Her family's definitely more liberal.

我的家人显然更保守。

My family's definitely more conservative.

也许他与生活目的的关系——这是一个很大的词。

Maybe his relationship to the purpose of living, which is a big word.

我的意思是，他非常注重一切，倾向于生产力、最大化，以及许多事情都需要纳入一个以工作为底层的框架中。

By which I mean, he's very oriented to everything, orienting towards productivity, towards maximizing, towards, like, a lot of things need to fit within a framework where work is the underlying.

无论是工作还是实现成果，他都非常注重成就。

Either work or achieving an outcome, it's very achievement focused.

这种心态对我来说并不有益。

That is not a mindset that is helpful for me.

他在几乎任何他参与的事业中都有一个目标。

He has a goal in almost anything, any endeavor that he takes.

他有专注和目的性。

There's a focus and a purpose.

包括对你也是如此。

Including with you.

包括对我也是如此。

Including with me.

这并不是我通常处理事情的方式。

That is not how I approach things in general.

你说他追求优化，我追求意义。

You say he goes for optimization, I go for meaning.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

在这个过程中，你们找到了交集并产生了共鸣。

And in the midst of that, you met somewhere and clicked.

我们确实如此。

We did.

那么你们当时在做什么？

So what were you doing?

做一些不涉及政治和宗教的事情，对。

Something that doesn't involve politics, religion, Yeah.

怪异。

Weirdness.

或者跳舞。

Or dancing.

跳舞。

Dancing.

跳舞。

Dancing.

我以为不是音乐就是跳舞。

I thought it's either music or dancing.

是的。

Yeah.

是跳舞。

It's dancing.

我舞跳得很好。

I'm a good dancer.

是的。

Yes.

你是的。

You are.

哦，我们实际上是在基苏姆活动的那个晚上相遇并开始了我们的关系，我认为那是一次非正式的相遇。

Oh, we met we actually met and began our relationship, I would argue, informally that evening at a Kisumba event.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那是一次偶然的相遇。

And it was a chance meeting.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你直接邀请她跳舞了吗？

You just instantly invited her for a dance?

是的。

Yeah.

很接近了。

Pretty close.

对吧？

Right?

我进来后换了鞋，穿过走廊，或者说是那个空间，一切仿佛都刚刚好契合。

I come in, I change my shoes, I I crossed the hallway, or or the edifice space, I guess, And it just everything seemed to click.

我们瞬间产生了共鸣，完全忘记了时间。

We connected instantly, and we lost track of time.

活动结束后，我们又去了另一个活动，两个、三个小时后，我们还在独自跳舞。

The event closed and went to another event, and we were still dancing by ourselves after two, three hours.

这确实很神奇。

It was certainly magical.

当你们的身体如此契合时，那真是神奇，

Magical, to have your bodies connect like

是的，就像童话里写的那样——一见钟情、初吻，一切刚刚好。我们的关系几乎就是从那个晚上开始的，从此再也没有分开过。

Yes, it was everything you read about in the storybooks, like love at first sight, first kiss, everything just Our relationship pretty much starts that evening, and we've been together ever since.

那时我对她一无所知，比如。

Now I didn't know anything about her at that time in terms of, hey.

我是素食者。

I'm a vegetarian.

嘿。

Hey.

我不喜欢特朗普。

I don't like Trump.

我的意思是，这并不重要。

I mean, that wasn't important.

所以现在所有这些自然而然发生的事情，如果之前就出现的话，我认为反而会成为障碍，因为那样的话，我会想：哦，我不会和她约会，因为她不符合我的价值观、观念或道德标准。

So everything that comes now, which is organic, which would have came before, I think would have been a detriment because it would been like, oh, I'm not gonna date her because she doesn't fit my value, construct, or morality.

对她来说也一样，这是一段合理的对话，因为从历史上看，她从不约会。

Likewise for hers, it's a plausible conversation because historically, doesn't date.

你们根本不可能在线上相遇。

You would never have met online.

不。

No.

迪亚戈不会喜欢的。

Diago wouldn't have liked

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

不会把你们撮合在一起，对吧？

Wouldn't have put you together, right?

但你们相遇了，你们通过一扇非常自然、真实的门进入了彼此的生活。

But you'd met, you entered to a different door that was very organic, physical.

非语言的。

Nonverbal.

尤其是非语言的。

Nonverbal, especially.

他们第一晚见面时，身体彼此交流了数小时。

The first night they met, their bodies communicated with each other for hours.

他们跳舞、移动、呼吸、出汗。

They danced, they moved, they breathed, they sweat.

那是神奇的、感性的，一见钟情。

It was magical, sensual, love at first sight.

这些身体彼此交流，传达了无数信息。

These bodies communicated and said tons to each other.

这些身体没有谈论选举、宗教或性取向。

These bodies didn't talk about elections, religion, sexual orientation.

如果他们一开始就谈论这些话题，他们就不会再见面了。

If they had started with a conversation about these topics, they wouldn't have met again.

但他们却从另一种对话开始，将他们引向了完全不同的方向。

But they had started with another conversation that took them in a very different direction.

而他们现在的挑战是，能否调和这两种截然不同的对话方式？

And their challenge now is can they reconcile these two very different kinds of conversation?

我们正处于对话过程中，还有太多内容要谈。

We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about.

我们需要短暂休息一下，请继续关注我们。

We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

感谢 Where Should We Begin? 的支持。

Support for Where Should We Begin?

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U Quote: no missed calls, no missed customers.

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由 Babbel 赞助。

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如果你想把学习一门新语言从愿望清单中划掉，那么 Babbel 就是你的答案。

If you want to check learning a new language off your bucket list, then Babbel is your answer.

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Babbel 让你循序渐进地练习真实生活中的对话，无需压力，帮助你建立自信，无论你是点一杯咖啡，还是在国外结交新朋友。

Babbel lets you practice real life conversations step by step without the stress, letting you build confidence to speak up whether you're ordering a cafecito or making new friends abroad.

我实际上选了波兰语作为我想学习的语言。

I actually picked Polish as a language that I would love to learn some.

为什么？

Why?

因为我的父母都是波兰人，事实上，当他们不想让我听懂时，他们只说波兰语。

Because my parents were both Polish and in fact they only spoke Polish when they didn't want me to understand.

所以是时候扭转这种情况了。

So it is time to turn that around.

这里有一个给我们的听众的特别限时优惠。

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条款和条件可能适用。

Rules and restrictions may apply.

《我们该从哪里开始？》的支持来自Rocket Money。

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Comes from Rocket Money.

崇高的目标往往需要对自身财务有清晰的掌控，但独自管理开支可能会让人迷失方向。

Lofty goals often require a strong grasp on your own finances, but keeping your spending in check all on your own can become disorienting.

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Rocket Money是一款个人理财应用，能帮你发现并取消不必要的订阅，监控消费，并降低账单，从而增加储蓄。

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Rocket Money doesn't just help you track and cancel your subscriptions, they also make it easy to build and stick with a budget.

它会自动分类交易，让你轻松按类别监控消费。

It automatically categorizes transactions so you can easily monitor your spending by category.

这样，你就可以放心地为任何你喜欢的琐碎开销留出预算，同时确保其他所有必要支出都有足够资金。

That way, you get to include whatever silly thing you like to spend money on while making sure that you have enough for everything else.

让 Rocket Money 帮助你更快实现财务目标。

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那就是 rocketmoney.com/begin。

That's rocketmoney.com/begin.

rocketmoney.com/begin。

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你有这么多分歧，然后你还想补充你之前说过的话。

You have all these disagreements and then you have also what you to add to what you said.

他是本地人，是美国人，有文件，而你没有文件，而且做出决定刻不容缓。

And he's the local, he's the American, and he has the papers, and you don't have the papers and there is an urgency to make a decision.

他认为一段成功的恋情最终会走向婚姻，而婚姻则会带来绿卡等等。

And he thinks that a successful relationship leads into marriage and his marriage leads into a green card and so forth.

那么问题来了，我们到底在做什么？

And the question is then, what are we doing?

这会走向哪里？

Where is this going?

你的问题比那更大。

Your question is bigger than that.

如果我选择这个，是否意味着我曾经认为对我重要的东西，并没有我想象的那么重要？

If I choose this, does that mean that none of the stuff I thought was important to me is as important as I think it is?

或者像我对自己和他人所说的那样重要？

Or as I've said to myself and to others that it is?

这如何反映在我的身上，反映在我的正直上？

How does this reflect on me, on my integrity?

我发现自己并不是在和他陷入爱情的困境，而是我发现我对他的爱不断为我制造道德困境。

I find myself not in a love dilemma vis a vis him, but I find my love for him constantly creating a moral dilemma for me.

正确。

Correct.

而你却说，我知道我想要什么，而我想要的就是你。

Whereas you, you say, I know what I want, and what I want is you.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得她会是个好妈妈，能照顾好我的孩子。

I think she's be a good mother for my kids.

就是这样。

That's it.

即使她有各种各样的问题，我仍然觉得我的孩子们会没事的。

Even with all whatever stuff she's doing, I still think my kids are gonna be okay.

我已经做出了我的判断。

I've already made my assessments.

意思是，所有这些想法都不会进入母乳中吗？

Meaning, all of these thoughts are not going to enter mother's milk?

不会。

No.

我的意思是，我需要我的孩子们，而且我觉得他们就在那里，实实在在地存在着。

I mean, I need my kids, and I think they're in there, literally.

我的意思是，挺搞笑的。

I mean, funny.

但她是很好地接受了，还是被当作

But I does she receive that well, or is that taken as

不。

No.

我觉得我搞砸了，我觉得。

I think the mess I I think

Latu macho?

Latu macho?

不。

No.

嗯，我本人就是拉美裔。

Well, my my I'm Latino.

对吧？

Right?

所以当涉及到这类决定时，这是一个集体决定，对吧？

So when it comes to these types of decisions, it's a collective decision, right?

我的家人也参与其中。

My family's involved in that.

她已经获得批准了。

And she's been approved.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

我的意思是，我们在认识不到两个月的时候我就带她见了家人，因为我强烈感觉到这段关系正朝着正确的方向发展。

I mean, I brought her to my family less than two months of us meeting because I I felt strongly this was going in the right direction.

这还是在完全了解她之前的事。

This is before knowing everything about her.

你知道，她患有多发性硬化症。

You know, she's got MS.

我也有健康问题。

I have health issues as well.

我的没那么严重，但她的很严重。

They're not as mine aren't as serious, but hers are.

所以她当时有点儿，而且你

And so she had kinda And you

你不是本来不想说这个吗？

didn't you weren't gonna say that?

我有MS？

That I have MS?

对。

Yeah.

这个是后来才说的？

That comes later?

我的意思是，这在你当前的生活中是一个非常重要的部分，还是不是？

I mean, it's a major part of how you live your life at this moment or it's no.

我很幸运，虽然不是完全无症状，但还处于早期阶段，到目前为止我所服用的药物似乎已经减缓甚至停止了病情进展。

I'm fortunate enough that I am not quite asymptomatic, but I am very early on and the medication I've been on so far seems to have slowed progression to stop really.

所以，这有可能就是了。

So there's a chance that this could be it.

但也有可能会走向另一个方向。

There's also a chance that it could go in a different direction.

但这并没有阻止他。

But that doesn't stop him.

没有。

No.

这对你来说也非常重要。

And that matters a great deal to you too.

是的，确实如此。

It does, yeah.

所以事情变得更复杂了，对吧？

So things are more complicated, right?

你不能只是希望认为，因为他以某种方式投票，且认为自己的利益范围更窄，就意味着他缺乏必要的同理心。

It's not you wish you could think that because he voted in one way and he sees his interests as much narrower, that that means that he doesn't have the empathic quality necessary.

但当涉及到你时，他却拥有大量的这种品质，他还提到：看，这就是纯粹的，对吧？

But then when it comes to you he has plenty of it and he mentions it like, here's this, this is pure, right?

这无关紧要，她患有多发性硬化症，但她会是我孩子最好的母亲，我不在乎她脑子里想什么，我只是觉得她美丽、善良。

Doesn't matter and she has MS and she would be the best mother to my kids and I don't care what's in her head, I just think she's a beautiful, you know, and a good person.

我的话。

My words.

接近吗？

Close?

是的，我妈妈也这么说，大概吧。

Yeah, my mom's words too, probably.

是的。

Yes.

不，我不想听起来像你妈妈。

No, don't want to sound like your mother.

那可不是个好主意。

That's not a good idea.

但回到我之前的观点，对吧？

But going back to my point earlier, right?

在拉丁文化中，这些决定不是在真空中做出的，对吧？

Culturally, in Latin culture, these decisions aren't made in a vacuum, right?

当我邀请她来见我父母时，每个人都会发表意见，每个人都参与进来，都会给出他们的评判。

When I invite her to meet my parents, everyone has something to say, everyone's chipping in, everyone's going to provide their judgment.

如果他们知道了你后来学到的其他一切，这会改变吗？

And if they knew everything else that you've learned since, would that change?

我觉得会有一点，因为我的家人相当保守。

I think a little bit because my family is fairly conservative.

现在，信仰是非常重要的。

Now, you know, faith is a big deal.

我们与天主教紧密相连，所以她持不可知论且对宗教态度暧昧，这会成为一个挑战，或者让他们感到害怕。

We were tied to Catholicism, so her being agnostic and ambivalent about that is something that would be a a challenge or something that would scare them.

比如，如果你不相信上帝，那你相信什么？

And like, well, if you don't believe in God, what do you believe

对他。

to him.

对。

Right.

然后他们会想，如果你不相信更高的力量和上帝，你的道德准则是怎样的？

And then they'll they'll look at, like, well, what is your moral compass if you don't believe in a higher power and believe in God?

那么，如果你没有信仰，你如何教育孩子面对一个缺乏同情心、充满挑战和残酷的世界？拥有根基和某种神学背景可以提供指导，避免更多主观解读。

And how how does it translate to how you would raise or prepare children for a world that is that lacks empathy and could be very challenging and cruel, and having roots and some type of theological background can provide guidance and avoid more interpretive.

所以我认为这会是这样。

So that that I think would be that's so

对他们来说，宗教比政治更重要。

More important than politics for them would be religion.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们会说，地缘政治的东西毫无意义，因为这些术语每四年、三年就会变，看是谁上台。

Because they would say geopolitical stuff means nothing because these terms change every four years, three years, whoever.

人很容易腐化。

Man could be easily corrupt.

即使是你喜欢的人，也可能被腐蚀。

Even if someone that you like could still be corrupted.

你不喜欢的人也可能受到影响。

Someone you don't like could be influenced.

但你对上帝的信仰能反映很多关于你自己的东西，以及你如何管理自己的福祉。

But your faith in God tells a lot about yourself and how do you manage your your well-being.

对吧？

Right?

那些行走于基督道路上的人，他们的行为就是他们关怀的见证。

Those that walk in Christ, their behavior is a testament in how they care.

所以我不需要告诉你我是基督徒。

So so I don't need to tell you I'm a Christian.

我如何举止、如何表现，就应该让你明白：这是一个有目标、有信仰、有纪律的人。

The way I carry myself, present myself should tell you, this is a man of purpose, a man of God, a man of discipline.

在西方文化中，工作是解决一切问题的主要方式。

And in Westinian culture, work is a predominant solution to everything.

你的关系出了问题。

Your relationship's having problems.

你需要更努力地工作。

You need to work harder.

你的孩子行为不端。

Your kids are messing up.

你需要更努力地工作。

You need to work harder.

你钱不够用。

You don't have enough money.

你需要更努力地工作。

You need to work harder.

你需要更努力地工作。

You're You need to work harder.

工作总是解决一切问题的办法。

Work is always a solution to any and everything.

我来自并生活在这个世界中。

And I come from and live in that world.

这是我唯一熟悉的世界。

That's the only world I know.

当我们也是移民的时候。

And when we are immigrants as well.

所以当我们来到这个国家时，我祖父为联合航空捡垃圾，但他还得把家里的其他人——我父亲、我祖母，还有所有人——都带到这里。

So when we came to this country, you know, my grandfather worked picking up garbage for United Airlines, but he had to get the rest of of his family, you know, my father, my my grandmother, everyone here.

所以必须一步步来，你得有明确的目标和方向。

So there had to be steps, and you had to have focus and purpose as to what you're doing.

当她看到这个世界，她更加放松、随和，对此我一无所知。

So when she sees the world and she's a lot more relaxed and kumbaya, I don't know anything about that.

我看到一些人拥有享受生活、制造第一世界问题的奢侈，但那不是我出身的世界。

I see folks that have, I think, the luxury of enjoying themselves and being able to take on and create first world issues and problems, but that's not the world I'm from.

当你听到他刚刚讲述这个故事时，你有什么感受？

When you hear him just tell the story as he just did, what happens to you?

首先，是什么样的感觉？

What's the feeling first of all?

不是想法。

Not the thoughts.

嗯。

Yeah.

其实这些内容并不新鲜。

A lot of this isn't actually new.

我们之前已经讨论过这些话题。

The conversations we've had.

但我很感激。

But I appreciate it.

我对此持开放态度。

I'm open to it.

我缺乏耐心。

I am impatient.

我容易烦躁。

I get irritated.

我感到被拥抱。

I feel embraced.

我感到完全分离。

I feel completely separate.

我对此心怀感激。

I appreciate it.

这可能更多是关于那种情感领域的普遍感受。

It's probably more the general in that realm of feelings.

我有时会对他这么说，或者我们的关系越来越聚焦于彼此的隔阂和差异。

And I say that to him sometimes or the relationship has become more and more focused on the gaps and the differences.

我希望他能核实一下我的说法，但我认为我已经表达出来了。

I would like him to fact check me on it, but I think I express it.

问？

Ask?

我表达出来了吗？

Do I express it?

是的。

Yes.

例如，当我们来这里的时候，我开始寻找纽约市的素食选择。

For example, when we were coming up here, I started looking for some vegetarian options in New York City.

这和我无关。

Nothing to do with me.

只是作为伴侣、作为爱人，有礼貌地，我会为任何人这么做。

Just as a partner, as a lover, courteous, I would do it for anyone.

对吧？

Right?

然后她回信说，这对我来说意义重大。

And then she wrote back, said this means the world to me.

我不是说我想在这里吃，但你为此付出的努力和时间让我完全震惊了。

I'm not saying I want to eat here, but the fact that you have put the effort and time into it, I was totally blown away by that response.

你认为这部分原因在于，你身边有一个人，她觉得自己必须自力更生吗？

Do you think that part of that is that you have a person next to you who has a sense that she had to fend for herself.

正如你描述的那样，她因为你在寻找素食选项而深受感动，这实际上是因为她被你照顾她的举动深深打动了。

In the way you described how moved she was by you looking for vegetarian options, which is really how moved she was by you taking care of her.

当然，她也公开表达了对这份感动的感激，而我也被他如此体贴你所触动。

And then of course that she appreciated it out loud And I was touched by this being moved by his taking care of you.

他看见你，他为你着想。

He sees you, he thinks of you.

他可能不会考虑整个世界，这正是你所说的，但他以你似乎渴望的方式照顾着你。

He may not think about the world, which is exactly what you said, but he's taking care of you in ways that you seem to have wanted.

而在这里，并不存在背叛。

And there, there is no betrayal.

所以我想理解这个道德困境，对吧？

So I want to understand the moral dilemma, right?

因为这正是阻碍这段关系向前发展的核心问题。

Because that's kind of the piece that seems to be standing in the heart of why this relationship can't move.

现在它陷入了一种发展停滞的状态。

It is now in a kind of a developmental arrest.

它渴望进入下一个阶段。

It wants to move to another stage.

你毕业了。

You finish school.

你必须决定要去哪里。

You have to decide where you're going.

你在美國的停留有截止日期吗？

Do you have a deadline to your stay in The US?

是的，我将在两周后的11月4日搬到加拿大。

Yeah, I'm moving to Canada next November 4 in two weeks.

好的。

Alright.

所以这里有一种紧迫感。

So there's imminence here.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

而你的一部分觉得，如果我思考他是怎么想的，我就感觉自己背叛了自己。

And a part of you says, if I think about who how he thinks, I feel like I'm betraying myself.

但如果我思考他的感受以及他对待我的方式，那么我觉得也许我从未像现在这样真正忠于自己。

But if I think about how he feels and how he acts towards me, then I feel like maybe I have been the most loyal to myself that I've ever been.

或者至少比忠诚更进一步。

Or kind maybe than loyal.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以当有人以他那种温柔的方式为你思考、与你共思时，它会打动你。

And so when someone thinks for you, with you in this kind, tender way as he did, it moves you.

是的。

Yes.

这是一个重要的部分，当它形成对比时，会让你感到困惑。

It's an important piece and it confounds you when it stands in contrast.

如果他以某种方式思考，然后以某种方式行动，那么判断是或否就会容易得多。

If he thought a certain way and then he acted a certain way, it would be much more easy to know yay or nay.

你不禁会问：一个人的意识形态与他的行为之间有什么关系？

And you kind of find yourself with the question, what's the relationship between one's ideology and one's actions?

我更应该关注哪一部分呢？

And what is the piece that I look at more?

我是根据一个人的意识形态、思维方式、投票行为和信仰来评判或看待他人吗？

Do I judge people or look at people by virtue of their ideology and how they think and how they vote and how they believe and all of that?

还是我更关注他们如何对待所有人，而不仅仅是自己的群体？

Or do I look at how they act and behave towards all, not just their own?

是的，我认为我们每个人都承载着多种立场和观点，将人们用单一标签归类实际上非常危险，因为首先，我们拥有大量不同的标签，其中一些甚至是相互矛盾的，而我们内心本身就包含着多重性。

Yes, I think all of us carry a host of different stances and opinions, and I think it is actually very dangerous to put people in boxes based on one label because first of all, we have a ton of different labels, some of which are contradictory, and we hold multitudes within ourselves.

当然，即使是那些投票给特朗普的人，他们的动机也可能非常不同且相互矛盾。

Of course, even to people who, for example, have voted for Trump, the motivations can be very different and contradictory.

因此，这是一个很容易指出的点，因为在我看来，很多人能以一种狭隘的方式理解它。

So it's an easy thing to point to because it's like it is something that I think a lot of people can understand in a narrow way.

但显然存在

But obviously there's

你是说投票吗？

Meaning the voting you mean?

是的。

Yeah.

投票只是一种过滤器。

The voting is just like one filter.

我们内心充满矛盾，以及她提醒我们不止是标签所定义的盒子，这也凸显了他们两人自己也都有盒子。

The idea that we contain multitudes and her caution that we are more than just the boxes also highlights the fact that both of them have boxes.

他们把对方视为某种盒子的一部分，并要求对方进入他们自己的某些盒子中。

They perceive the other as part of boxes and they have requirements for the other to enter into some of their own boxes.

他们所说的‘盒子’指的是意识形态、身份和观念。

By boxes they refer to ideologies, identities, ideas.

他们实际上都在与之搏斗，各自都在努力。

And they are actually both grappling with it, each of them.

但如果我认为他整体上是个坏人，或者待我不好之类的，我就不会在这里了。

But if I thought he was overall a bad person or overall didn't treat me well or anything like that, then I wouldn't be here.

我假设他反过来也带着所有那些与他的历史和自我认知相悖的标签。

And I assume he conversely, all of the labels that I do carry that are antithetical to his history and the way that he has seen himself.

正如我被迫重新书写关于自己的叙事，以便为他腾出空间一样，我假设他也在为我做同样的事。

In the same way that I am being forced to rewrite a narrative about myself in order to make space for him, I assume he's doing the same with me.

因此，通过舞蹈、非语言、身体和生理层面的相遇至关重要，因为你们的身体带你们去了思想不愿去的地方。

Which is why meeting through dancing, non verbally, physically, bodily, is extremely important because your bodies took you to places where your minds wouldn't let you go.

是的。

Yes.

他们的思维会更加狭隘，而你们的身体却以一种非常直接和更根本的方式连接在一起。

They would be much more narrow minded whereas your body is connected in a very immediate way and more primary.

所以我想知道你们的身体发生了什么。

So I want to know what happened to your bodies.

尽管存在所有这些差异，但即使现在当我们的身体相遇时，某些东西也会融化并跨越界限。

All these differences notwithstanding even now when our bodies meet, something melts and it crosses over.

是的，那就是我们连接的方式。

Yes, And that's we connect.

是的，在各种情境下，无论是亲昵、依偎还是更亲密的姿态，那种神奇的连接感总会回来。

Yeah, a variety of settings with that sense of touch, whether we're canoodling or cuddling or in much more intimate positions, that type of magic connectivity, it always comes back.

有时，仅仅一个轻触就足以让对方平静下来。

Sometimes just a small touch is enough to settle the other person down.

所以，例如，在这次对话的某些时刻，我已经能感知到她的状态，能察觉到她何时感到不适。

So, for example, there's been points already during this session which I'm attuned to her, so I can tell or feel when she's uncomfortable.

我会触碰她，作为一种安慰，把一些能量转移到自己身上，而她偶尔也会对我做同样的事。

I touch her as a matter of reassurance to transfer some of the energy onto myself, and she does the same thing occasionally with me as well.

她会抓住我的膝盖，或者我们可能会找到彼此的手。

She'll grab my knee or maybe we'll find each other's hands.

从一开始就是这样。

That's been there from inception.

如果没有非语言的交流，我的头脑会把你过滤掉，认为你是个有问题的人，而不会去了解真实的你，因为我固守着先入为主的观念和偏见。

Without the nonverbal piece, my mind would have filtered you out as a problematic person without getting to know who you were because I'm holding on to preconceived notions and dispositions.

所以，没有非语言的交流，这一切就无法实现。

So without the nonverbal, it doesn't work.

你可能会看着我，觉得我大概挺优雅、挺有魅力的，但其实我不是这样的人，我也不太擅长调情。

You may look at me and think, you know, he's probably pretty spa, pretty, you know, pretty sexy, but I'm not really but I don't I'm not very good at flirting.

因此，舞蹈为我提供了一个绝佳的机会，让我能通过非语言的方式表达自己；而像这样长篇大论地解释自己，我觉得会没完没了。

And so dance is a great opportunity for me to express myself nonverbally, putting together long diatribes like such as this to explaining myself, which I think would be eternal.

我刚有个想法。

I just had a thought.

来，找一首你喜欢的曲子。

Here, find one of your tunes that you like.

我们要开始吗？

Are we doing this?

好的。

Okay.

是的，我确实有。

Yeah, I do have that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

就选一首歌吧，也许就是那个晚上的那首歌，如果你还记得的话。

Just one song that may even have been the song of that of that night if you remember it.

所以我刚才在想。

So here's what I was thinking.

他们仅通过肢体语言相遇的鲜明对比，让我想进一步探索这一点。

The stark contrast of their meeting exclusively in body language made me want to explore this further.

于是我请他选一首音乐，一首基赞巴舞曲。

So I asked him to pick a piece of music, a piece of kizamba.

然后我给了每个人一支笔和一张纸。

And then I gave each one a pen and paper.

我只是说，如果这些身体能用一种我也能理解的语言说话，而我又没有在现场，它们会讲述怎样的故事？

And I just said, if these bodies could speak in a language that I can understand too, having not been there, what's the story they would tell?

你们的关系中，除了所有那些价值观对话和其他方面之外，我们还需要打开哪一个版本的关系？

What is the other version of your relationship that we need to open here that is in addition to all the values conversations and the other aspects of your relationship.

他们听着音乐，写着字，刚一开始，他就突然哭了起来，深深地抽泣，悲痛欲绝。

And they listened to the music and they wrote and no sooner did it start that he burst into tears, deep sobbing, grief sobbing.

于是我问他，音乐和舞蹈对他来说意味着什么。

So I asked him what was the meaning of music and dance for him.

曾经有一段时间，我很难开口说话。

There was a time when I had a very difficult time talking.

我有语言障碍。

I had speech impediment.

你之前提到我说话很快。

You mentioned earlier I speak quickly.

是的，你以前口吃。

Yes, you stuttered before.

对。

Right.

通过那种语言障碍，你可以察觉到所有典型的症状。

You can pick up all the classic symptoms with that impediment.

所以我必须找到其他方式来与周围的人沟通。

And so I had to find other ways to communicate to those around me.

我的父母，尤其是我父亲，对这种情况没什么耐心。

My parents my dad there's not a lot of patience for that.

你不想长大后被人觉得奇怪或古怪。

You you don't want to grow up being weird or strange.

所以，我又去看了语言病理学家。

So Again, I was going to a speech pathologist.

当我发现这种社交舞蹈时，它成了一种更有效的沟通工具。

When I was able to discover this type of social dance, became a much more effective tool for communicating.

我对待事情非常认真。

I do take things very serious.

当你这样做的时候，那已经是你的身体故事了。

And when you're That's your body story already.

花几分钟时间，只是写下来。

Take a few minutes and just write.

好的。

Okay.

他们独自留在房间里，伴随着音乐、裤子和他们的身体。

They stayed in the room by themselves with the music, their pants and their bodies.

过了一会儿，我回来问，是否可以听听身体想说什么。

And after a while I came back and I asked if I could hear what the bodies had to say.

如果这封信有个标题，会是什么？

If this letter had a title, what would it be?

关于我的身体的笔记。

Notes on my body.

你想让我读给他听吗？

You want me to read it to him?

嗯。

Uh-huh.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我

I

我是从我身体的角度来写的。

wrote it somewhat from the perspective of my body.

所以我认出了你的身体。

So I recognized your body.

你提供了一个容器，一个让我可以自在存在的安全空间。

You provided a container, a safe haven within which I could just be.

你开始的地方和我结束的地方界限变得模糊了。

The limit of where you started and where I ended blurred.

我感觉我们彼此交融在一起了。

I felt like we dissolved into each other.

那是一个我想永远停留的地方。

It was a place I wanted to stay indefinitely.

你的身体感觉强壮而温暖，但同时也柔软而温柔。

Your body felt strong and warm, but also soft and gentle.

我的身体感到安全。

My body felt safe.

我感到确信。

I felt certain.

我不需要言语。

I didn't need words.

她的身体本质上告诉他：我和你经历了一次治愈的体验。

Her body in essence told him, I had a healing experience with you.

作为一名性侵幸存者，加上我所患的多发性硬化症，与你共舞让我能够同时依靠你那既坚强又温柔的身躯。

Being a survivor of sexual assault, being in the condition of MS that I have, dancing with you allowed me to lean against you at once strong and tender.

我们融为一体，我希望这种状态能一直持续下去。

And we dissolved into one, and I wanted it to stay as such.

到目前为止，这是她整个对话中最清晰的一次。

It's the clearest she's been in the entire session so far.

你的头衔是什么？

What's your title?

一个不断重复的日子。

A day that repeats itself.

你要读给她听。

You're gonna read it to her.

好的。

Okay.

我会听着。

I'll listen.

不知道该怎么开始。

Not sure how to begin.

我一直在等待这个时刻，好让我的人生向前迈进，但却缺乏实现它的条件。

I've been waiting for this moment to move forward with my life, but lacking the ingredients to do so.

为什么一切都这么艰难？

Why is everything so challenging?

我付出了那么多努力，却收获甚微。

I worked so hard to achieve so little.

我知道生活并不完美，我以为这会是那个机会，但有些挑战依然如故。

I know life isn't perfect, I thought this would be that opportunity, but some challenges remain the same.

我的时间有限，而我却让自己相信，和你在一起，我的时间是无穷无尽的。

My clock is limited, and I let myself to believe that my time would be infinite with you.

和你在一起，为什么一切都这么艰难？

With us, why does everything have to be so challenging?

我厌倦了每件事对我而言都比对别人更困难。

I'm tired of everything being harder for me than it is for everyone else.

我爱上了一个人，她并非我原本以为或希望的样子，但她却比我预期的还要好。

I fall in love with someone who is not who I thought or hoped she'd be, but she was more than I expected her to be.

对于我许多失败的关系来说，努力工作并不能解决一切。

To many of my failed relationships, hard work doesn't solve everything.

我害怕自己正在失去最后的机会，却没有可行的解决方案或清晰的前进道路。

I'm afraid that I'm losing my last opportunity and I don't have a viable solution or a clear path forward.

那就是我在那段时间里能写下的全部内容。

That's all I was able to write in that time.

当她读到那封信时，感觉仿佛身临其境。

When she read her letter, it felt embodied.

当他写下那封信时，这正是他学会跳舞的原因。

When he wrote his letter, it's exactly why he had learned to dance.

因为通过文字，他体验到了那些让他感到困难的词句。

Because with words, he experienced the words that is challenging to him.

那些让他觉得自己是个失败者、觉得自己未能达到作为长子所被寄予的期望的词语。

The word that makes him feel that he's a failure, that makes him feel that he hasn't met the expectations that have been put on him as the firstborn son.

而当他聆听音乐、沉浸在舞蹈中时，那个空间却如此简单纯粹。

Whereas when he listened to the music and he was in the dance, that space was uncomplicated.

我们需要短暂休息一下。

We have to take a brief break.

请继续关注我们。

Stay with us.

本节目由MasterClass赞助。

Support for Where Should We Begin?

赞助来自MasterClass。

Comes from MasterClass.

无论你人生处于哪个阶段，无论是刚刚起步还是已登顶巅峰，总有更多东西值得学习。

No matter where you are in life, whether you're just starting out or at the top of your field, there's always more to learn.

而MasterClass正是一个绝佳的选择。

And a great place for that is MasterClass.

通过MasterClass，你可以向最优秀的人学习，成为最好的自己。

With MasterClass, you can learn from the best to become your best.

年付计划每月仅需10美元起，即可无限访问200多门由全球顶尖商业领袖、作家、厨师等授课的课程。

With plans starting at $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs and more.

如果你喜欢我的作品，那么你可能会对我的关于培养关系智慧的课程感兴趣，无论是在工作、家庭还是任何中间场合。

If you're a fan of my work, then you might enjoy my masterclass on cultivating relational intelligence, whether it's at work or at home or anywhere in between.

现在，我们的听众在 masterclass.com/begin 购买任何年度会员可额外享受 15% 的折扣。

Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/begin.

这就是在 masterclass.com/begin 享受 15% 的折扣。

That's 15% off at masterclass.com/begin.

masterclass.com/begin。

Masterclass.com/begin.

本节节目由 Shopify 赞助。

Support for the show comes from Shopify.

如果 2026 年是你终于实现创业梦想的一年，Shopify 将助你一臂之力。

If 2026 is the year you're finally going to make your entrepreneurial dreams come true, Shopify is here to help.

无论你的商业构想是什么，Shopify 都能帮助你将其变为现实。

No matter your business idea, Shopify can help you turn that idea into a reality.

Shopify 为你提供所有工具，轻松打造你梦想中的店铺。

Shopify gives you all the tools to easily build your dream store.

从数百个精美的模板中选择，您可以自定义以匹配您的品牌。

Choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize to match your brand.

借助Shopify内置的AI工具，设置快速简便，这些工具可撰写产品描述和标题，并帮助您编辑产品图片。

Setup is fast with Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and help you edit product photos.

营销功能也已内置。

Marketing is built in too.

创建电子邮件和社交媒体活动，触达客户浏览的任何地方。

Create email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they scroll.

在2026年，别再等待，立即开始使用Shopify销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月1美元的试用版，今天就开始在shopify.com/este销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/este.

前往shopify.com/este。

Go to shopify.com/este.

就是shopify.com/este。

That's shopify.com/este.

今年伊始，让Shopify陪伴您聆听您的第一个声音。

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

本周《净资产与放松》节目中，我将为您独家抢先 preview 我的新书《财富丰盈》，该书将于2月3日上市。

This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm giving you an exclusive sneak peek at my new book, Well Endowed, Hitting Shelves, February 3.

我写这本书是因为我相信每个人都值得拥有真正契合自己生活的财富积累方式，而不是盲目遵循那些并不适合我们的刻板理财建议。

I wrote this book because I believe everyone deserves to build wealth that actually works for their life, not just follow some cookie cutter financial advice that wasn't made for us.

我将分享构建代际财富、自信投资以及创造您真正想要的财务未来的真正策略。

I'm sharing the real strategies for building generational wealth, investing with confidence, and creating the financial future you actually want.

这不仅仅是一本普通的个人理财书籍。

This isn't just another personal finance book.

它是一份指南，帮助您掌控自己的财务命运，构建能带来选择权、自由和内心安宁的财富。

It's a roadmap for taking control of your financial destiny and building the kind of wealth that gives you options, freedom, and peace of mind.

现在就在各大售书平台预购《财富丰盈》，为改变您与金钱的关系做好准备。

Preorder Well Endowed now wherever books are sold and get ready to transform your relationship with money.

您可以在任何播客平台收听本期节目，或在youtube.com/yourrichbff观看视频。

Listen to this week's episode wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbff.

我看到朋友们的孩子上大学。

I see my friends' kids going to college.

我看到兄弟姐妹的孩子上大学，而我却感觉自己越来越落后。

I see my siblings' kids going to college, and I just feel like I'm following further and further behind.

我快五十岁了，很快就要被裁员，届时将无法获得医疗保障。

And I'm approaching 50, and I'm going to be laid off soon, so I won't have access to healthcare.

很多事都没有变得更好，也没有达到我原本以为会有的状态。如果你二十年前、三十年前问我，我的人生会是什么样子，我绝不会想到自己会单身，没有自己的资源，也没有清晰的方向。

A lot of things are not better or where they should be or where I thought they would be If you asked me what my life looked like twenty years ago, thirty years ago, I'd never think I'd be single without my own resources, without clarity.

我以为在人生的中段，这些事情都已经完成了。

Guess in middle of my life, I just figured those things would have been done.

房子、车子、孩子。

House, car, kids.

我不知道这个故事会如何收场。

Just don't know how this story ends.

我努力提升自己，成为我心目中理想的丈夫或父亲，无论和谁在一起。

And I work hard on myself to be what I would consider an ideal husband or father to whomever it is I'm with.

但无论我多么努力，这份工作都无法带来我想要的结果。

But that work doesn't yield the results that I want regardless of how hard I try.

现在也在发生同样的事情吗？

And the same thing is happening now?

我觉得这里也在发生同样的情况。

I feel like it's happening here as well.

签证事宜超出了我的控制范围。

The visa stuff is outside of my control.

医疗保健问题也超出了我的控制范围。

The health care stuff is outside of my control.

工作问题同样超出了我的控制范围。

The work stuff is outside of my control.

我们仍然在这里，距离两周前设定的截止日期11月4日越来越近，每一天都在努力寻找一条可行的前进道路或解决方案。

And we're still here with two weeks ago as our deadline approaches November 4, and every day has been trying to figure out a path forward or a solution that's viable.

所以我认为音乐的作用是让我能够释放情绪，因为我觉得

And so that's what I think the music did was it allowed me to, I guess, release because I felt

你还没跟她说过这些吗？

You haven't said any of this to her?

没有。

No.

也许只是稍微提了一下边缘部分。

Not maybe nibbled around the edges.

希望她能对你做出回应。

Want her to respond to you.

好吧。

Okay.

当然。

Sure.

我认为，所有这些带来的情感影响是全新的。

The emotional effect of all of that, I think, is something that has been new.

我不是觉得你不关心，但我确实在不同时间感到自己快要崩溃了。

It's not that I thought that you didn't care, but I I have felt at different times like I've been flipping out.

而且我在情感上也不知道你也有这样的感受，因为我为此焦虑了很久。

And I didn't know emotionally that you felt this way also because I've been panicking about it for a long time.

但你经常提到的一点是，如果我们想弄清楚，我们就能做到。

But something that you've said a lot is that, like, if we wanna figure it out, we will.

到目前为止，没有什么感觉是无法克服的。

Nothing so far feels insurmountable.

我没有看到任何因地理位置而成为不可逾越的障碍，或者说是关系终结的原因。

I am not seeing a deal breaker or, like, an ending because of geography.

我们可以决定我们想住在哪里。

We can figure out where we wanna live.

我们可以弄清楚我们之间的关系是什么样子。

We can figure out what us looks like.

是的，它可能不会像十年前、二十年前我们想象的那样，但这对我来说并不一定是坏事。

And, yeah, it's not gonna look like we thought it would ten years ago, twenty years ago, but that isn't inherently a bad thing for me.

你需要什么？

What do you need?

我需要什么？

What do I need?

我其实有一份清单。

I actually have a list.

你想听我念一下我的清单吗？

Would you like me to read my list?

我有还好。

I have okay.

我们不久前做过夫妻咨询，我们的治疗师让我列出我的需求清单。

We did couples counseling a little while ago, and our therapist had me list out my list of needs.

我需要肯定的语言。

I need words of affirmation.

我需要言出必行，或者你的言行一致。

I need keeping your words and or your words matching your actions.

我需要追求真相。

I need truth seeking.

我需要与我的家人、朋友融合，或融入我的社区。

I need integration with my family and my friends and or integration into my community.

我需要感觉自己是优先的，或不成为负担。

I need to feel like a priority and or to not feel like a burden.

我需要能够做计划。

I need to be able to plan.

我需要被看见。

I need to be seen.

我需要被以好奇心对待。

I need to be met with curiosity.

我需要身体上的亲昵。

I need physical affection.

我需要与更大的目标相连。

I need to be connected to a bigger purpose.

我需要感到被保护，或确信我的福祉在决策中被优先考虑。

I need to feel protected and or to be sure my well-being is prioritized in decision making.

我需要伴侣关系，也需要亲密的时刻。

I need partnership and I need moments of intimacy.

这就是我所需要的。

That's what I need.

其中一部分你得到了吗？

Part of that you receive?

嗯。

Yeah.

其中一些部分我确实得到了。

Parts of that I definitely receive.

但有些部分还没有发生。

But there are some that aren't happening though.

嗯。

Yeah.

有些部分是有的。

There are some that are.

那我们来理清楚吧。

So let's sort it out.

我得到了言语的肯定。

I'm getting words of affirmation.

我有时得到了被看见的感觉。

I'm getting being seen sometimes.

我有时得到了被好奇对待的感觉。

I'm getting being met with curiosity sometimes.

得到了身体上的亲昵。

Getting physical affection.

我有时得到了被保护的感觉。

I'm getting feeling protected sometimes.

我得到了很多亲密的时刻。

I'm getting a lot of moments of intimacy.

而我希望我能得到更多什么？

And I wish I was getting more of what?

我家人和朋友的融合？

Integration of my family and friends?

是的。

Yes.

那里的问题是什么？

What is the problem there?

我也注意到了这一点。

That's the one I picked up on too.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的朋友是最明显的问题，他没有出席我本期望伴侣参加的很多朋友活动。

My friends is the big glaring spot, so he hasn't been present to a lot of the friend events that I would have expected a partner to be

出席。

at.

为什么？

Because?

我感到不舒服。

I was uncomfortable.

发生了一些出乎意料的事情，让我措手不及。

There was some unexpected actions that had thrown me off.

那具体是什么事？

And what was it about?

我们约会大约六个月后，我两个最要好的朋友去搜索了他。

Two of my closest friends, after we'd been dating for, I think, about six months, my friends Googled him.

当他们搜索他时，发现他的驾照被吊销了。

When they Googled him, they found records of his license having been revoked.

如果你读完整个内容，看起来并不好。

Just if you read the whole thing, it doesn't look very good.

看起来好像有资金被滥用之类的。

It looks like there was money that was mismanaged, etcetera.

我的朋友们来找我，说：嘿。

My friends came to me and said, hey.