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我最小的妹妹刚刚收到了求婚，我感受到的痛苦和心碎是如此强烈。
My youngest sister just got proposed to, and the hurt, the heartache that I feel, it's so overwhelming.
我交往了八年的伴侣非常棒。
My partner of eight years is amazing.
经过多次深入的交谈，他根本不相信婚姻制度，不相信这种仪式，也不相信其中的浪漫成分，他明确表示，这条路不适合我们。
After multiple, multiple conversations that we had, he just doesn't believe in the institution, doesn't believe in the ritual, doesn't believe in in the in the romantic side of it, and he made it very clear that this is not the path for us.
大多数时候，我能接受这一点。
And most of the time, I'm okay with that.
我无法扼杀这份希望，但我依然过得幸福。
I can't kill the hope, but I live happily.
当身边的人经历着我无比渴望的事情时。
And those moments when somebody close to me experiences something that I deeply so much desire.
我感受到的痛苦非常、非常深。
I feel the pain really, really deep.
我的另一个妹妹，我是三个孩子中最年长的，大约三四年前也收到了求婚。
My other sister, I'm the oldest of the three, also got proposed about three years, four years ago.
那也是一段非常艰难的经历，我记得我当时以一种不太一样的方式去处理它。
And it was also a very difficult experience and I remember processing it in a little bit different way.
我想我当时试图压抑自己的情绪，假装我不需要这些。
I think I tried to just bottle my emotions and pretend that I didn't need it.
今天的情况有点不一样了。
Today it's a bit different.
我感觉自己想要把那些情绪释放出来。
I feel like I wanna let those emotions out.
从小和姐妹们有着不同的生父，这给我造成了深深的创伤，让我觉得自己不够好、与众不同，或者被排斥。
Growing up as a child from a different biological father to my sisters created quite deep wound for me of being somehow not enough or different or just outcasted.
也许这次经历正是在重复这种渴望，因为我经历过多次关系，每次都有同样的问题——对方反对，而我最终选择分手。
Maybe this experience is kind of replicating this desire because I had multiple relationships and we always had that same issue where the person would be against it and I would drop the relationship.
没有那个仪式，没有那枚戒指，没有那场派对，没有那公开的宣告。
It's just without without that ritual, without that jewelry, without that party, without that public declaration.
但这种痛苦，我现在感受到的，让我觉得它可能永远不会消失。
But that pain, like, I feel now, it makes me feel like maybe it will never go away.
本节目由诺德斯特龙赞助。
Support for this show comes from Nordstrom.
哦，真有趣。
Oh, what fun.
节日邀请函陆续到来，诺德斯特龙为你备好了派对穿搭。
Holiday invites are arriving, and Nordstrom has your party fits covered.
你可以找到适合各种场合的全身搭配，包括售价低于100美元的连衣裙、套装、高跟鞋和配饰，品牌有Bardo、Princess Polly、Dolce Vita、Naked Wardrobe、Coach等。
You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion, including styles under $100 Dresses, sets, heels, and accessories from Bardo, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, naked wardrobe, Coach, and more.
店内或在线购物均可享受免费造型建议、免费配送和快速取货，方便快捷。
Free styling help, free shipping, and quick order pickup make it easy, in stores or online.
是时候去诺德斯特龙购物了。
It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom.
本节目由Nature's Sunshine全新推出的海洋光采胶原蛋白赞助。
Support for this show comes from Nature's Sunshine all new Marine Glow Collagen.
一年中夏季炎热消退的时节到了。
It's that time of year when the summer heat is fading.
空气变得越来越清新了。
The air is getting crisper.
树叶开始变红。
The leaves are turning red.
一切都开始有了肉桂和南瓜的味道。
Everything starts tasting like cinnamon and pumpkins.
随着日落时间提前，我们享受阳光的时间减少，而面对蓝光的时间增加。
As the sun sets earlier, we spend less time with beams of sunshine and more time with the glow of blue light.
因此，Nature's Sunshine 新款 Marine Glow 含有叶黄素和其他抗氧化成分，能对抗蓝光对皮肤和眼睛健康的损害。
That's why Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow contains the blue light blocking power of lutein and other antioxidants to combat the damage to skin and eye health from blue light exposure.
体验更明亮的肌肤和经过验证的眼部保护效果，Nature's Sunshine 新款 Marine Glow 是唯一经过临床验证可支持眼部与皮肤健康、抵御蓝光伤害的胶原蛋白产品。
Experience more radiant skin and proven eye protection with Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow, the only collagen product clinically proven to support eye and skin health and defend against blue light.
立即前往 naturesunshine.com 试用 Nature's Sunshine 新款 Marine Glow。
Try Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow now at naturesunshine.com.
我洗耳恭听。
I'm all ears.
我录下这段话的时候，正是情绪最高峰的时刻。
When I recorded the message, it was the very the peak of the emotion.
现在还是能感受到那种感觉。
Still feel it like like that.
那时候是嗯。
It was Mhmm.
我觉得情绪稍微平复了一点，但当我发送出去时，我甚至不记得自己按下了录音键，因为那实在太真实了。
I think it subsided a little bit, but as when I send it, I I don't even remember pressing the button, you know, to record it because it was so raw.
事情刚刚发生，完全出乎我的意料。
It just had happened and it took me by surprise.
是什么让你感到意外？
What took you by surprise?
是你的宣布，还是它让你如此痛苦？
Your announcement or how much it pained you?
是它让我感到痛苦，因为我以为我已经在内心解决了这个问题，但它清楚地告诉我，我并没有。
How much it pained me because I thought I had already resolved it within me and it just clearly showed me that it I didn't.
我能问你个问题吗？嗯？
Can I ask you Yeah?
关于你刚才说的，我想问一下？
A question about what you said?
当你说到它如此痛苦，而且它触动了我对于归属感的需求、我害怕被排斥的恐惧，那么对你来说，痛苦的根源是什么？
When you say it hurts so much and there's something about it that taps into my need for belonging, my fear that I'd want, and what's the pain point for you?
是尴尬。
It's embarrassment.
是一种羞耻感。
It's some kind of shame.
就像是被排除在外的痛苦，某种意义上觉得自己不够好，无法进入这个VIP俱乐部。
It's like a pain of being left out, a pain of somehow being not good enough to get into this VIP club.
总觉得我身上有什么地方出了问题。
Somehow that there is something broken about me.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我也听过这种说法。
I That's heard as well.
我为什么不能加入你们？
Why can't I join you?
我身上有什么问题，让我无法进入这里，无法被认可？我会不会永远都是那个被排除在外、低人一等的人？
What's it about me that I can't enter here, that I can't be legitimized in this Will I always be one down, one out?
是的。
Yes.
就是那样。
That that's
那就是恐惧，那就是那种感觉。
That's the fear and that's the feeling.
是的。
Yes.
你有没有把这件事跟你男朋友提过？
Did you have you brought this at all to your boyfriend?
不是带着请求，但至少他有没有听过这种说法？
Not with a request, but even just simply has he ever heard that message?
有。
Yes.
他听过，因为我在处理其他关于‘不同’的问题时，特别是当我开始探索我来自不同生父这一模式时，我就逐渐进入了这个话题。
He has because I was resolving other issues of being different and especially when I started exploring this pattern of me being from a different biological father, I started to get into the topic through.
所以我已经为他建立了这个联系。
So I have made the connection for him.
为什么对我来说这么难？
Why is it so difficult for me?
我觉得他确实理解，但他并没有真正看到这对我造成了多深的影响。
And I think he does truly understand, but he doesn't really see how deeply it is affecting me.
想要一些他无法给予的东西，而他曾说过，这永远无法满足你。
Wanting something that is beyond him and he has made it before that he said it will never be enough for you.
他并不是第一个告诉我戒指永远无法让你满足的男人。
And he's not the first man that told me that the ring will never be enough for you.
戒指无法让你满足什么？
The ring will not be enough for what?
获得满足，或者像我说的，感到完整、觉得自己已经抵达，或者
To be fulfilled or, like, I've complete or feel like I have arrived or
真的如此吗？
Is that really the case?
我的意思是，你也有这种感受吗？
I mean, do you experience that too?
这不在于它是否真实，而是你是否也有过类似的体验？
It's not about is it true, but do you experience some of that?
你有没有想过，我内心深处是否有一种持续质疑自己归属感的东西？
Do you wonder, is there something deep inside of me that continuously questions my sense of belonging?
或者，这个象征物是否真的能让你体验到被接纳进入你所说的贵宾俱乐部？
Or would this symbolically actually give you an experience of being welcomed into what you call the VIP club?
我觉得确实有这种感觉
I I think it it does feel like
两者都结束？
Both end?
可能两者都结束。
Probably both end.
而且，我觉得公开宣布这件事对我来说意义重大。
And also, like, I do feel that the public declaration that that would means quite a lot to me.
所以当我想象或憧憬这个仪式时，最让我感到快乐的是与人分享。
So when I imagine or dream about the event, it's usually what brings out the most joy is sharing it with people.
所以我们将会和我的同事、朋友或家人一起分享，而不是仅仅两个人共同经历。
What so we will be sharing it with my work colleagues or sharing it with my friends or my family instead of something like two people experience together.
因为我感觉我已经拥有了这一切。
Because I feel like I have all that.
我已经拥有了婚姻。
Like, I have the the marriage.
我觉得我已经拥有了。
I feel like I have it.
这段关系很亲密，我们感到彼此相连，而且总是想着一起变老。
The relationship is close and we feel connected and and we always think about growing old together.
所以这些我觉得我都已经拥有了。
So all that I feel like I I have.
对。
Right.
我能请你多讲一点你成长过程中的家庭结构吗？
Can I ask you to tell me a little bit more about the family constellation that you grew up in?
因为从你的话中，我听到你一生中伴随着一些深刻而痛苦的感受，它们源于你的原生家庭。
Because what I'm hearing from you is there is a there's a set of very deep and painful feelings that travel with you through life, and they originated in your family of origin.
而你现在的这段关系也存在。
And then there is the relationship that you are in.
然后就是这两者之间的交汇。
And then there is the meeting between these two.
是的。
Yeah.
以及一方告诉另一方：我需要你给我一些东西。
And how one is telling the other, here are some things I need from you.
你是如何进入你成长的家庭的？
What how how did you enter the family you grew up in?
所以这一直是个禁忌。
So I it was always a taboo.
这是一个秘密。
It was a secret.
我本不该知道这件事。
I I was never meant to know it.
是的。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
所以，
So,
好的。
Okay.
我们稍等一下。
Let's hold on a second.
就先体会一下这个。
Just sit with this.
因为秘密存在于公开声明的另一面。
Because the secret is on the other side of the public declaration.
我们必须理解为什么这件事如此重要。
It's important that we understand why this matters in the way that it does.
否则，我们就只是会说：我不相信婚姻。
Otherwise, it's just we're gonna have I don't believe in marriage.
我不相信婚姻制度。
I don't believe in the institution.
我不，我想要戒指。
I don't I I want the ring.
我想要白色的婚纱。
I want the white dress.
我想要的是，这里有一个更深层的故事，涉及羞耻，涉及秘密。
I want there's something there's a deeper story here that that involves shame, that involves secrecy.
这比婚姻本身更重要。
It's about that more than about marriage.
这是婚姻试图掩盖的东西，有时成功，有时失败。
It's the stuff that marriage tries to cover up and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't.
所以你不该发现这件事。
So you were not supposed to find out.
所以这里有一个故事。
So there's a story here.
告诉我，你能给我讲讲这个故事吗？
Tell me, can can you tell me a little bit of the story?
可以。
Yes.
我两岁时，我的亲生父亲离开了我们，因为他有了另一个家庭。
So, my biological father left us when I was two years old because he had another family.
我妈妈很快就遇到了我的继父，他收养了我，他们决定永远不告诉任何人。
And my mom met my dad very soon after and he adopted me and they decided to never tell.
但我们住在一个非常小的镇上，
But we lived in a very small town and
那里的人根本藏不住秘密。
Where people don't keep secrets very well.
是的。
Yes.
我七岁时开始听到这件事，最初是孩子们从他们邻居的大人那里听说的，然后在学校又听到了，但我从未告诉过任何人。
And I started to hear it when I was seven, first from the kids because they heard it from their adults in the neighborhood, then they heard it again in school, but I never told them.
我用不同的颜色写在日记里。
I wrote in the diary in the separate color.
我记得我讨厌这些页面，总是翻来翻去，但我把他们告诉我的事说了出来。
And I remember I used to hate these pages, used to flick through them, but I I told them what they told me and
你告诉了谁？
You told who?
我只是告诉了日记。
Just the diary.
我从来没有真正告诉过我的父母或任何人关于你。
I never really told my parents or anybody about You
你告诉了日记，我知道一个没人愿意谈论的真相，但你没有去向妈妈或爸爸问清楚。
told your diary, I know a truth that no one wants to talk about, but you did not approach mom or dad.
你叫他爸爸？
You called him dad?
嗯。
Yeah.
你以为他是你爸爸？
You thought he was your dad?
嗯。
Yeah.
我也没有去告诉父母我听到了什么。
And I didn't approach my parents to let them know that I had heard something.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那么，你这个小女孩，当时是怎么面对这个发现的？
And so how did you, as this little girl, years old, live with that discovery?
那一定非常沉重，非常困惑。
That must have been so heavy, so confusing.
是的。
Yes.
那真的很沉重，而且我很尴尬，我讨厌这些人。
It was very heavy and it was so embarrassing and I hated these people.
现在当我回想起他们用孩子气的语气说‘我听说他不是你爸爸’时，我能清楚地看到他们的表情，但我 somehow 就把这事压了下去。
I can see their faces now when I remember them saying it as in their childish way really, saying, well, I've heard that this is not your dad and but I somehow just pushed it away.
你能用当时他们对你说的话原样复述一遍吗？
Can you say it in the language it was said to you?
那是立陶宛语。
That's Lithuanian language.
他们这么说的时候，是在取笑你吗？
And they would make fun of you when they would say it?
我觉得他们是在同情我。
I felt like they pitied me.
我觉得他们觉得我值得被同情。
Felt like they They felt pitied you.
那正是他们说的原话。
That was exactly the words.
是的。
Yeah.
是孩子还是成年人？
Were children or adults?
有些年纪大一点，一点点，有些年纪小一点，有些和我同龄，那时我七岁和十二岁。
Some older, little bit, some younger, some of my peers at different stages when I was seven and 12.
我想我记得有两次特别让我印象深刻。
I think I remember two occasions that really stopped in my mind.
但后来这些年，我从未提起过这件事。
But then over over the years, I just never brought it up.
我曾经向祖母提起过一次，但她却说，哦，别听他们的，孩子们。
And I brought it up once to my grandmother, but she said, oh, don't listen to them, kids.
你知道的，他们在胡说八道。
You know, they talk nonsense.
我被敷衍过去了。
And I was kind of brushed off.
所以当时我感觉不错，但还是觉得有什么地方不对劲。
So I felt good in the moment, but still felt like there was something not right.
我爸爸给了我很多爱。
My my dad showed me so much love.
我从未感到被排斥。
I never, you know, felt excluded.
如果说有什么不同，我觉得自己可能更受关注。
If anything, I felt like more probably paid attention to.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但当我18岁的时候，我们发生了严重的冲突，事情差点被揭发出来。
But then we had a big conflict when I was 18 and it kind of came out or was about to come out.
我对他说：我知道你要说什么。
And I just said to him, I I know what you're gonna say.
他非常惊讶，因为他不敢相信我会知道。
He was very surprised because he couldn't believe that I knew.
我说：我一辈子都知道，我一直都知道。
And I said, knew all my life, knew it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
独自背负这么大的秘密，真的太沉重了。
That's such a big thing to hold and carry all alone like this.
即使是一些希望你拥有正常童年、从不感到被排斥的人。
Even from people who wished that you would just have a normal childhood that you would never feel exclude.
换句话说，他们希望通过保守这个秘密所实现的目标，最终却恰恰造就了它。
I mean, in a way, what they wanted so much to achieve by creating the secret is what they ended up creating.
是的。
Yeah.
他们希望你不会感到羞耻。
They wanted you not to feel ashamed.
他们希望你觉得自己是属于这个家的。
They wanted you to feel like you belong.
他们希望你感受到你的父亲就是你的父亲，抚养你长大的那个人就是你深爱的父亲，但因为你早就知道了。
They wanted to feel that your dad was your dad, that the man who raised you was your loving father, and yet because you knew it.
那么，你是如何处理这两种现实的？
Then what did you do with those two realities?
我只是有时候觉得，我有这些感受，觉得我爸爸对我并不好，好像我一直在和他制造矛盾。
I just I feel sometimes that I had these feelings that my dad wasn't good for me, that somehow I was creating conflict with him.
在过去五年里，当我开始揭开这一切，并意识到它给我造成的深层伤害时，我开始改变与他的关系，开始更多地对他说谢谢，感谢他为我所做的一切，我知道他并不完美。
And I think over just past five years when I started to uncover this and the deep wounding that it has caused, I started to change the relationship with him and started to say more thank you for what he has done for me and that I I know he he was not perfect.
他因为自己的成长经历，很难向我们任何人表达爱意。
He he struggled to show love to any of us because of his own upbringing.
他有点疏离，所以家里是由女性掌管的，由我妈妈和奶奶来操持。
And he was a bit distant, so the household was run by the women, by my mom, my grandma.
所以我的妹妹们比我晚得多才出生。
So my sisters came a lot later than me.
但现在，我觉得自从我公开谈论这件事以来，我们的关系改善了很多，虽然我并没有直接跟他谈过。
And but now I I just feel like our relationship got a lot better since I have spoken about this openly, but not to him.
我和我妈妈谈过，但她仍然难以回到那段时光。
I I spoken to my mom who still struggles to go back to that time.
我仍然试图拼凑出头两年发生的事情的叙事，但这就像不断拉扯，试图获取越来越多的信息。
I still try to piece together the narrative of what happened in those first two years, but it's like pulling and pulling, trying to get more and more information.
不幸的是，我祖母其实很想告诉我这个故事，但她在我五年前开始深入挖掘这件事之前就去世了。
Unfortunately, my my grandmother who really wanted to tell me, I think, the story, she passed away before it I started to dig deeper into this five years ago.
所以五年前你18岁的时候，一切不是吗？
So five years ago is when you were 18 and it all No.
来了
Came
所以我快40岁了。
So I'm I'm nearly 40.
所以五年前，我实际上开始去查证了。
So I so five years ago, I actually started to check.
五年前发生了什么？
What what happened five years ago?
首先，18岁的时候发生了什么？
Well, first of all, what happened at 18?
当你对爸爸说‘我知道你要告诉我什么’的时候，最初的那次顿悟是什么？
What was this first revelation when you said to your dad, I know what you're gonna tell me?
嗯。
And Mhmm.
他意识到你一直生活在一个真相或一个秘密之中
He realized that you had lived with a truth or with a secret
是的。
Yeah.
他们以为自己能一直对你隐瞒，希望保护你，但事实上，这给你造成了巨大的伤害。
That they thought they had been able to keep from you, hoping to protect you, but in fact, it inflicted a big wound.
所以他们
So they
如果我们有时间，我会说说十二岁时发生了什么，七岁时发生了什么，十八岁时发生了什么，三十四岁时又发生了什么。
If we had time, I would say what happened at twelve, what happened at seven, and what happened at eighteen, and what happened at thirty four.
对吧？
Right?
这四个是你人生中的重要里程碑，
Those are four
是的。
Yeah.
但我们可能无法全部讲完。
Major milestones for you, but we may not be able to get Okay.
一一讲完。
Through all.
那我们先从十八岁说起吧。
So let's start with the eighteen.
之后，我父母在生活中、在他们的关系中经历了一段非常艰难的时期。
So after that, we my my parents were going through a very difficult time in their life, in their relationship.
我觉得自己总是夹在这些冲突中间。
I think that's I was always kinda in the middle of this this conflict.
显然，他非常痛苦。
Obviously, he was distraught.
他以为他会失去我。
He thought that he was gonna lose me.
我只是想安慰他们，说没关系。
And I just wanted to soothe them, say it's fine.
这没什么意义。
It doesn't mean anything.
我知道你是我的爸爸。
I know that you're my dad.
我不想了解任何事。
I don't wanna know anything.
那是我18岁时说的话。
That was my 18 year old talking.
我会照顾你的，基本上。
I'll take care of you, basically.
别难过。
Don't be sad.
我会照顾你。
I will take care of you.
别担心这件事。
Don't worry about it.
我不会因此怪你。
I'm not gonna hold it against you.
你们当时都只关注他。
And you were all focused on him.
还有妈妈，也许现在更如此。
And mom, maybe more even now.
所以
So
那你对妈妈说了什么？
And to mom, you said what?
我说我很好，他们不需要为任何事担心。
That I'm I'm okay, that they don't need to worry about anything.
之后不久，我就离开了，再也没有回来。
And I was, soon after, left and never came back.
所以，那个18岁少年的时刻，我从未去探索过。
So, that moment of the 18 year old just was I never explored it.
我从未想深入下去。
I never wanted to go deeper.
我只希望确保他们没事，不让他们觉得更糟。
I just wanted to make sure that they are okay and they are not making I'm not making them feel worse.
让她们觉得更糟，是指发生了什么？
Because making them feel worse, meaning what happened?
你的父母之间确实有不少冲突。
Your your parents had their their fair amount of conflict.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但你的母亲一直得感激，你的父亲在她已经有孩子的情况下还娶了她？
But your mother always had to be thankful that her husband had married her when she already had a child?
是的。
Yes.
而且
And
她有自己的羞耻感吗？
She had her own shame?
她有，我觉得她现在仍然有。
She had she still has, I feel.
因为这种巨大的羞耻感，因为她当时非常非常年轻。
Like, this this big big shame because she was very, very young.
我想我爸爸有时可能会利用她这种情况。
I think my dad maybe sometimes used this situation with her.
我不知道完整的故事是怎样的
I don't know the the full story of
但你妈妈曾和一个已婚男人有过关系。
But your mom had a relationship with a man who was married.
是的。
Yeah.
她是个年轻女子，怀孕后，那个男人却消失了，她独自一人在母亲的帮助下生下了孩子。
And she was a young woman, and she got impregnated, and he disappeared, and she had the child alone with the help of her mother.
是的。
Yeah.
父亲，所以我的
And father, so my
父亲。
And father.
他们接纳了你吗？
And they welcomed you?
是的。
Yeah.
充满了爱。
It was so much love.
我觉得我的祖父母是我非常爱的人。
I feel like my grandparents were I adore them.
嗯，他们已经不在了。
Well, they're not here anymore.
但是嗯。
But Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
但他们接纳了你。
But they welcomed you.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
我们得短暂休息一下。
We have to take a brief break.
所以请继续和我们在一起，看看接下来会发生什么。
So stay with us, and let's see where this goes.
本节目由Shopify赞助。
Support for this show comes from Shopify.
当你开始自己的事业时，找到一个能简化所有流程的合适工具可能会改变游戏规则。
When you're starting your own business, finding the right tool that simplifies everything can be a game changer.
对数百万企业来说，这个工具就是Shopify。
For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify.
Shopify是全球数百万企业的商业平台，占美国电子商务总量的10%，从美泰、Gymshark等知名品牌到刚刚起步的新锐品牌都在使用。
Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in The United States, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started.
凭借数百个即用型模板，Shopify可以帮助你打造一个与品牌风格相匹配的精美在线商店。
With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style.
Shopify表示，其平台内置了众多实用的AI工具，可以撰写产品描述、页面标题，甚至优化产品摄影。
And Shopify says their platform is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography.
事实上，我们自己也用Shopify来销售我们的卡牌游戏《我们该从哪里开始？》的网站。
In fact, we use Shopify ourselves to sell our card game, where should we begin a game of stories on our websites.
用 Shopify 将你的大生意构想变为现实。
Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your site.
注册每月仅需 1 美元的试用版，今天就开始在 shopify.com/ester 销售吧。
Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/ester.
前往 shopify.com/ester。
Go to shopify.com/ester.
就是 shopify.com/ester。
That's shopify.com/ester.
本节目由 Odoo 赞助。
Support for this show comes from Odoo.
经营企业已经够难了，为什么还要用十几个互不相通的应用程序让事情更复杂呢？
Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?
介绍 Odoo。
Introducing Odoo.
这是你一生中唯一需要的商业软件。
It's the only business software you'll ever need.
这是一个一体化、完全集成的平台，让您的工作更轻松。
It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
客户关系管理、会计、库存、电子商务等。
CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.
最棒的是什么？
And the best part?
Odoo 以极低的成本取代了多个昂贵的平台。
Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
因此，成千上万的企业已经转向了 Odoo。
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
那您为什么不来试试呢？
So why not you?
立即免费试用 Odoo，访问 odoo.com。
Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.
那就是 odoo.com。
That's odoo.com.
Entre Nous 是我在 Substack 上的新家，专为那些希望以更多连接、自信、想象力和趣味感生活、恋爱与工作的人而设。
Entre Nous is my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love and work with more connection, confidence, imagination and playfulness.
我将临床洞察、文化评论与社群对话融为一体，呈现给你。
I bring to you the combination of clinical insight with cultural commentary and community dialogue.
我想开启一场关于我们当下关系复杂性的集体探索。
What I want to do is kick off a collective exploration of the intricacies of our relationships at this moment.
请在 Substack 上加入我，我将每周为你撰写文章，与其它创作者进行直播，并为付费订阅者提供社群讨论论坛，以增强我们彼此之间的关系与联结。
Please join me on Substack, where I'll be writing to you weekly, hosting live streams with other creators, and for my paid subscribers, offering community discussion forums to strengthen our relationships and connections to one another.
付费会员还将获得我的播客《我们该从何说起？》的无广告版本。
Paying members will also get ad free episodes of my podcast, Where Should We Begin?
以及我们所有的独家办公时间附加剧集。
And all of our exclusive office hours bonus episodes.
我邀请你注册成为我 Entre Nous 社区的成员，无论是免费还是付费，地址为 hesterparelle.substack.com。
I invite you to sign up and become a member, either free or paid, to my Entre Nous community at hesterparelle.substack.com.
我们曾生活在一个非常小的家庭里。
We lived in this very small household.
我们住在一个非常小的空间里，很多人一起。
We lived in a very small space, a lot of us.
所以我一直受到保护，感到非常被爱。
So I was always protected and felt very loved.
你的母亲因为嫁给了一位已婚男子而怀孕，她因此被爱了吗？还是爱落在了你身上，而羞耻却落在了她身上？于是她只能找个人结婚，不再去想那个人是不是她真正想与之相伴、爱着她或让她感到被爱的人，而只是不得不接受任何愿意娶她的人，因为那时她已经不再属于那个精英俱乐部了。
And was your mother loved for having gotten pregnant with a married man, or did the love come to you and the shame went to her, and then she just had to find someone to marry her and not wonder if that was the man that she wanted to be with or loved or felt loved by, that she just had to take whatever was gonna be available to her, or whoever would want her because she no longer belonged to the VIP club.
是的。
Yes.
那是个小镇。
And it was a small town.
那时候，那里充满了羞耻感，尤其是在那些年。
It was a lot of shame in there, especially in those years.
嗯。
Mhmm.
不过她得到了我大家庭的大力支持。
She had big support though from my extended family.
我觉得他们真的保护了我，他们所有人。
I think they really protected me, every all of them.
他们保护了你。
They protected you.
我的问题是，他们羞辱她了吗？
And my question is, did they shame her?
并不需要他们主动做些什么。
Not that they needed to do anything very proactively.
那种行为本身就已经如此。
That that behavior in itself.
嗯。
Yeah.
她从未表达过，但几年前当我试图和她谈这件事，想了解这个故事和来龙去脉时，她感到非常羞愧，根本无法面对。
She never expressed it, but when I tried to talk to her a few years ago about this, trying to find out the story and narrative, she she feels so ashamed and she is she she cannot go there.
她很挣扎，我的意思是，这都快四十年了，而且
She struggles and I I mean, it's been nearly forty forty years, and
对。
Right.
她很难面对这件事。
She struggles to go there.
我觉得她仍然背负着巨大的内疚，或者说是羞耻多于内疚。
I think she still carries this big guilt, or maybe shame shame more than than guilt.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你觉得她对自己所经历的事情的羞耻感，是如何影响她与你的关系的？
And how do you think her shame for what had happened to her influenced how she related to you?
我觉得
I think
你说别人都保护了你。
You say everyone else protected you.
那我呢
How about I
我觉得我保护了她很多。
feel like I protected her a lot.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得她的情绪状态似乎在宣告我的安全。
I felt I feel like her emotional state kind of was declaring my safety.
所以如果她安全，我就没事。
So if she was safe, I was okay.
或者如果她没事，我就感到安全。
Or if she was okay, I I felt safe.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且她一生中情绪非常不稳定，试图控制很多环境，我觉得我们非常依赖彼此，总是不停地交谈，彼此紧密交织，相比之下，我们和姐妹们的关系反而更疏远。
And if she she was very emotional throughout our lives, tried to control a lot of the environment and I felt like it was very we were very codependent, so it felt like we were talking all the time, we were very entwined in our together and separate from from sisters more more so.
我只是觉得我需要打破这种联系，以另一种方式重新建立连接，因为这种感觉太痛苦了。
And I just felt like I needed to break that connection and reconnect in a different way because it felt too painful.
这感觉不健康。
It felt unhealthy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它
It
我总觉得她是在通过我来过她自己的生活。
felt really like she was living her life through me in many ways.
我总是被期望成为那个完美的孩子，去上大学、去学习、成为第一个取得成就的人。
I was always supposed to be the perfect one to go to get a degree, to get to study, to to be the first one to to achieve things.
都是她自己没能做到的事情吗？
All things that she had not been able to do?
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我觉得是的。
I think so.
对。
Yeah.
所以她是想通过你来实现自己的愿望吗？
So she was gonna live vicariously through you?
我想她确实这么做了，直到近几年我们开始改变这种互动模式，对吧。
I think she did until, like, these past years when we started to change the dynamic Right.
在家庭里。
In the family.
所以你开始了一段自我分化的过程吗？
So you started a journey of differentiation?
对。
Yeah.
这非常痛苦。
It was very painful.
但自从疫情以来，我取得了巨大的进步。
But I made really big steps since COVID.
疫情真正打开了整个这部分，真的。
COVID just opened the whole whole part of it, really.
就是从那时起，我又开始感受到进入关系时的那种羞耻感。
That's when I started to feel again that shame that I was getting into relationship.
又一段关系，第三段，那段婚姻根本不在计划之内。
Another one, a third one, where the marriage was not on the cards.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我又感到自己即将放弃并离开，因为这一直都是我做的事。
And I felt again that I was going to drop and leave because that is what I always did.
我会投入，会走到那个阶段，然后离开。
I would get committed, I would get to the point and I would leave.
但这次我不想离开了。
And I didn't want to leave this time.
这次我想改变，因为很明显事情又在重演。
This time I wanted to because it was obvious that it was happening again.
故事完全一样，只是对象完全不同。
Exactly the same story with a very different person.
嗯。
Mhmm.
同样的故事，具体是指什么？
And exactly the same story meaning?
我会变得很爱对方，进入一段非常好的关系，我们非常亲密、非常幸福，但就是无法迈出那一步，无法做出那种公开的承诺。
That I get loving, I get in a very good relationship, we are very close, we are very happy, but then it's just not enough to to make that step, to make that commitment, like that public commitment.
嗯。
Mhmm.
总有什么东西会阻止这一切。
It would always be something that stops it.
我不知道为什么。
And I didn't know why.
我总是觉得，不行，这样行不通。
And I always felt like, no, that's not working.
我要再试一次。
I'm gonna try again.
我要和别人试试。
I'm gonna try with somebody else.
我和我的姐妹们还有妈妈谈了谈，
I spoke to my sisters and my mom and
你和她们的谈话怎么样？
And how was your conversation with them?
这很痛苦，但我认为她们理解了，尤其是我的姐妹们，因为她们觉得我和妈妈的关系非常
It was very painful but I think they understood it, my sisters especially, because they felt like my and mom's relationship were very
奇怪。
odd.
就是她们无法进入的VIP俱乐部。
Was the VIP club that they couldn't enter.
嗯。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
这个系统里有很多贵宾俱乐部。
There are many VIP clubs in this system.
你和妈妈之间有一种特别亲密的关系，你的姐妹们无法竞争，也无法介入。
So you and mom had a particular closeness that your sisters could not compete with and could not enter.
而且
And
你希望按照自己的方式决定是否要进入一段可能不会实现或发展为婚姻的关系，而不必感到自己正在重复母亲的经历。
you wanted to decide on your own terms if you wanna be in a relationship that may not materialize or evolve into marriage without having to feel that you are actually repeating what your mother went through.
所以每次你离开时，你实际上都在说：我不会经历母亲所经历的一切。
So every time you left, you were basically saying, I'm not gonna experience what my mother went through.
我做这些的时候从来没这样想过，但是
I never thought it like that when I did, but
我知道。
I know.
我看到你的表情了。
I saw your face.
但这只是为这件事增添了另一层意义。
But that's that's it just adds another another layer to this.
她也是从一个不会公开露面的人开始自己的故事的。
It's that she too started out her story with someone who wouldn't be public.
你知道，这不仅仅是你内心藏着一个秘密，而是你在那个男人的生活中本身就是一个秘密。
It's, you know, it's not just that there was a secret inside of you, but you were a secret in this man's life.
是的。
Yes.
和妈妈在一起时，你不是秘密，但关于你是谁、你来自哪里，这一切都是个秘密。
With mom, you were not a secret, but there was a secret about who you are and where you come from and all of that.
你有没有讨论过，把所谓的公开宣告作为一种象征性的承认和庆祝行为，与婚姻分开来看？
And do you ever discuss the possibility of what you call the public declaration separately from marriage as a symbolic act of acknowledgment, celebration?
我不久前刚提过这件事。
I I have brought it up not long ago.
我想是因为我听了很多种不同的做法，但就是那时他说，我觉得这对你来说可能还不够。
I think it's because I listened to many many different ways of doing it, but that that's when he said, I don't think that will be enough for you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但那可能不是由他来决定的。
But that's maybe not for him to decide.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这是一个很好的回答，可以说：我不想做这件事，而且对你来说也不会好。
I mean, that's a good answer to kind of say, don't wanna do something, and it won't be good for you either.
所以我们应该做。
So we should do it.
但我们并不知道。
But we don't know.
而且即使它无法完全治愈整个伤口，这种象征性的意义在于
And and even if it doesn't take care of the entire wound, there's something about the symbolic nature of
嗯。
Mhmm.
只要有一些人，嗯，
Just having a few people Mhmm.
在桌旁或不在桌旁，无论你如何定义，他们都能认可、承认、庆祝并仪式化你的关系。
At the table or not at the table, whatever you want for that matter, who recognize, acknowledge, celebrate, ritualize your relationship.
如果你庆祝生日，你可能会庆祝纪念日。
If you celebrate your birthdays, you may celebrate an anniversary.
你知道，它可能无法填补原始伤口的全部空缺，但那又怎样呢？
You know, it may not fill the entire gap of the original wound, but so what?
也许那也不是它的目的。
Maybe that's not the purpose either.
目的是通过一些小举动来回应羞耻感。
Purpose is to do small gestures that respond to the shame.
羞耻感关乎隐藏。
Shame is about hiding.
当我们感到羞耻时，我们会躲起来。
When we feel ashamed, we hide.
我们不想见人。
We don't wanna see people.
我们也不希望别人看到我们。
We don't want them to see us.
我们觉得是我自己有问题，而不是我遭遇了什么。
And we think there's something wrong with me rather than something happened to me.
当我们做出公开声明时，恰恰相反。
When we make a public declaration, it's exactly the opposite.
你可以做一些这样的小举动。
And you can do little gestures like that.
他们表示尊重。
They honor.
他们予以认可。
They legitimize.
他们让这件事为人所知。
They make it known.
他们不再隐藏。
They're not hiding.
也许是一些小事。
Maybe little things.
也许你们两人之间也有一些小事。
Maybe little things between the two of you too.
这并不一定非要涉及整个社区。
It doesn't just have to involve the community.
因为你在一个小镇长大，你拥有整个村庄。
And because you grew up in a small town, you had the village.
但基本上，你家门口就有整个社区，你知道的，即使你不想，他们也会主动上门。
But, basically, you had the community at your doorstep, you know, and they came in even if you didn't want to.
在这里，你可以邀请他们，你会选择想邀请谁，他也会选择他想邀请的人。
Here, you would get to invite them, and you would choose who you want to invite, and so would he.
而且它甚至不需要有个名字。
And it would just it wouldn't it doesn't need to carry a name even.
这感觉太奇怪了。
It it feels so strange.
我不知道。
I don't know.
就好像我害怕去这么做。
It's it's like as if I am scared to do it.
害怕并不是因为他不让我做。
Scared to it's not so much that he would not let me.
而是我 somehow 不想去做。
It's more like that I somehow don't wanna do it.
再说说。
Say more.
那时我在思考这种欲望和执念。
That's when I was thinking about this desire thing and obsession.
我有时觉得，也许不想的是我。
I feel sometimes that maybe it's me who doesn't want it.
就是这个想法，刚刚在我脑海中浮现，大概是在过去四十八小时内。
It's it's that just thought that just came to my mind very, like, in the past maybe forty eight hours.
你不想什么？
Me that doesn't want what?
公开宣布。
To declare it publicly.
他？
Him?
我们？
Us?
它？
It?
它。
It.
比如，这段关系，我不知道该怎么说。
Like, the relationship that it's it's I don't know.
我有一种感觉，内心深处，那才是他真正想要的。
I I have this feeling that deep inside is what he actually wants.
他想要那样，但不是你。
That he would like that, but not you.
嗯。
Yeah.
我知道这听起来很扭曲，但我就是不明白。
And I know it sounds twisted, but I don't get it.
不。
No.
这只是
It's just
与你之前说的相反。
the opposite of what you said before.
是的。
Yeah.
但你知道，我喜欢这种扭曲的感觉。
But it's you know, I like twisted.
所以再告诉我多一点。
So tell me more.
所以，如果你拥有那种作为主持人、此刻悄然逼近的声音，那阻力在哪里？
So what what's if you had the mass the voice that is the master of ceremony and that just creeps up right now, where's the resistance?
那只是不是我。
That it's just not me.
那根本不是我做的事。
It's just not what I do.
我不是从来没梦到过它。
It's not I never dreamt about it.
我从来没想象过。
I never imagined it.
我从来没，你知道的，甚至
I I never had, you know, even
你从来没想象过什么？
I never imagined what?
这些仪式中的任何一个。
Any of these rituals.
我从来没想象过自己会穿那件裙子。
I never imagined ever in the dress even.
我从来没想象过我自己，因为
I never imagined myself Because
我想象过？我是怎么想象自己的？
I imagined How did I imagine myself?
只是接受事物的本来面目，保持独特和不同，证明我不需要这些。
Just being okay with things as they are, being unique and different and kind of proving that I don't need this.
他们称我为儿媳。
They they they call me the daughter-in-law.
嗯。
So Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以当你的妹妹宣布她要结婚时，你的第一反应是失落。
So when your sister announces that she's getting married, your first response is loss.
嗯。
Yeah.
对某种故事的失落，对一套你将不再遵循的社会期望的失落，对你和姐妹之间同质感的失落。
Loss of a certain story, loss of a certain set of societal expectations that you won't be following upon, loss of the sense of homogeneity between you and your sisters.
然后，这种失落、悲伤和痛苦转变为：我与众不同，不仅仅是因为我有个秘密，而是现在我正将这种不同转化为我选择的生活方式、我想要遵循的原则，以及我真正想遵守的哪种社会仪式。
And then it switches from the loss and the sadness and the pain into I'm different, not just because I had a secret, but now I'm taking that difference and I'm turning it into how I choose to live and what I wanna live by and which one of the rituals of our society I actually want to adhere to.
于是我彻底颠覆了这一切。
And so I turned the whole thing upside down.
好的。
Okay.
但那不是就发生在48小时前吗？
But that just happened forty eight hours ago?
是的。
Yeah.
就像，非常近的事情，我甚至不知道为什么我会想到这个。
Like, very recently, I just don't even know why that thought came to me.
因为我当时正在思考该说什么，突然间就冒出了这个想法。
Because I was thinking, was preparing to what to say, and all of a sudden it just kind of came that thought.
它像一个问题一样浮现出来：你真的想这么做吗？还是这只是你过去十年来告诉自己的话？
It kind of came as a question, like, do you really want to do this or is it just what you told yourself for past ten years?
然后你又补充说，但我觉得他比我还想要这个。
And then you added to it, but I think he wants it more than me.
嗯。
Yeah.
因为我说过，他并不相信婚姻制度，但他却在为朋友写婚礼致辞，简直就像这是他的全职工作一样。
Because I said it's about he doesn't believe in the institution, but he is writing the wedding speeches for his friends, you know, as if it was his full time job.
他很喜欢参加这些婚礼仪式，这在我看来有点奇怪——一个不相信婚姻制度的人，却如此全心全意地参与其中。
And he loves attending all these ceremonies and all these it just seems a bit odd to me that somebody who doesn't believe in institution participates in it so wholeheartedly.
嗯。
Mhmm.
每个人都有自己的矛盾。
Everyone, their contradictions.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以当他跟你说‘这还不够’的时候，他真正想表达的是什么？
So when he says to you, this won't be enough, what's he really addressing?
因为现在你已经表达了：我说我想要某样东西，但那可能并不是我真正想要的，我只是想要点什么。
Because now you've conveyed, I say I want something that may not really be the thing I want, but I want something.
那么，他所说的‘它’和‘某种东西’究竟是什么？他说任何仪式都无法解决它。
So what is the it and the something that is not being properly named that he says, no ceremony will take care of it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你们俩似乎从未明确说出这个‘它’。
And you both seem to never name this it.
至少我没有，我不确定我是否捕捉到了。
At least I have not I'm not sure I capture.
但你们似乎各自都明白某种潜藏在下面的东西。
But you seem to each know something that lies underneath.
这与其说是我的价值，不如说是一种奖赏。
It's not so much my worth, but it's like a prize.
就像这一整件事的最终宝石，你知道的。
It's like the final jewel, you know, in this whole thing.
就像拼图的最后一块。
It's like a final piece of the puzzle.
所以我有一个对我有用的整体框架，但我还缺那最后一块拼图。
So I have this whole thing that works for me, but I'm missing that one little puzzle piece.
也许我曾经以为，那种承诺、那种仪式、那种典礼，会把那块拼图放进去。
Maybe I thought that was that commitment, that that ritual, that ceremony would kind of put that piece in.
但现在我说出来，我觉得它并不会真的做到。
But I just don't now I say it and I don't think that it would.
我能给个想法吗？嗯。
Can I suggest a thought for Mhmm?
我刚想到一个，你告诉我这是否能带来一些清晰的理解。
Just came up for me and you tell me if that adds some clarity.
当你这样说的时候，我想办一场仪式，想结婚，想庆祝一切，因为我觉得这会让我得到正式确认，会做出一个宣告，但某种程度上，他——你从没提到过他。
When you talk like that, I want to have a ceremony, I want to get married, I want to have a celebration, all of that because I think it would officialize me, it would make a declaration and all of that, On some level, there is he he you don't mention him.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就好像他被征召来扮演某个角色，但其实这根本不是关于他的事。
It's like he's being recruited for a part, but it's not about him.
我在想，他如果说‘我不想做这件事，这不会带来改变’，是不是其中一部分原因。
And I'm wondering if part if him him saying, I don't wanna do this, this will not add it.
这解决不了问题。
This won't fix it.
因为你让他做的是本不属于他的角色。
It's because you're asking him to do something that isn't really his role.
某种程度上，你让他做的是你父母没做过的事。
In a way, you're asking him to do something that your parents haven't done.
你让他去认可、去正式化。
You're asking him to legitimize, to officialize.
他也不是第一个我问过这个问题的人。
And he's not the first person I asked that as well.
但他是那个你决定不继续的人。
But he's the one where you decided not to
走。
go.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以你内心有一部分知道，你对他有一些期待，但这些期待其实和他本人无关。
So there's a part of you that knows that there's certain things that you want from him, but it's not about him.
而且这其实也和婚姻无关。
And it's actually not about marriage either.
不是。
No.
我只是不知道自己想要什么。
I I just don't know what I want.
我到底想要的是什么？
What is it really that I want?
我们将在广告后回归，继续本场对话。
We'll be back with a session right after this.
虽然我们非常感谢我们的赞助商，但如果你想无广告收听本场对话，请点击‘免费试用’按钮，订阅Astaire的办公时间播客。
And while we love our sponsors, if you wanna listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.
我是梅根·拉皮诺。
Megan Rapinoe here.
本周《更进一步》节目中，克里斯·莫斯赫将做客，与我们讨论他作为运动员和跨性别运动员倡导者的开创性生涯。
This week on a touch more, Chris Mosher joins us to discuss his groundbreaking career as an athlete and as a trans athlete advocate.
克里斯是首位在入选男子短程三项全能队后，以公开跨性别身份代表美国参加国际比赛的运动员。
Chris was the first openly trans athlete to represent The United States in international competition after making the men's sprint duathlon team.
我们还将通过颁发年度‘梅根奖’来为2025年画上句号，回顾女子大学篮球，并关注NWSL如何努力留住特里尼蒂·罗德曼。
We're also closing 2025 by giving out some year end Meggies, taking a look at women's college basketball, and, yes, checking in with how the NWSL is trying to keep Trinity Rodman in the league.
请在您收听播客的平台或YouTube上收听《更进一步》的最新一期节目。
Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
本周《财富与闲聊》节目中，我邀请了医生。
This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Doctor.
大卫·金博士，认证皮肤科医生、LightSaver防晒品牌创始人，以及拥有近70万粉丝的极简护肤专家，正在改变我们对皮肤投资的认知。
David Kim, board certified dermatologist, founder of LightSaver Sun Care, and the minimalist skincare expert with nearly 700,000 followers who's changing how we think about investing in our skin.
从斯坦福医学院到塞夫韦的货架，大卫从临床皮肤科医生转型为企业家和创作者经济领域的佼佼者，堪称将专业能力转化为多重收入来源的典范。
From Stanford Medicine to Sephora shelves, David's journey from clinical dermatologist to entrepreneur and creator economy powerhouse is a masterclass in turning expertise into multiple revenue streams.
他正在揭开护肤产品和疗法真正值不值得你花钱的真相。
He's breaking down the truth about what skin care products and treatments are actually worth your money.
准备好一场能帮你省钱、消除护肤困惑的对话，并让你明白：有时最好的投资，就是镜子里那个凝视着你的自己。
Get ready for a conversation that'll save your finances, clear up your skin confusion, and prove that sometimes the best investment is the one staring back at you in the mirror.
在你收听播客的任何平台收听，或在 youtube.com/yourrichbff 观看。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbff.
我们如何才能让一个人不仅愿意听，而且真正理解我们的立场？
How can we get someone to not only listen but truly understand where we're coming from?
我是普里特·巴拉拉。
I'm Preet Bharara.
本周，十分快乐（Ten Percent Happier）的创始人丹·哈里斯与我一起，剖析如何与你意见相左的人沟通。
And this week, Dan Harris, founder of ten percent Happier, joins me to break down how to talk to someone you disagree with.
这是我所见过最有效的善意操控方式。
This is the most effective benevolent form of manipulation I've ever encountered.
我每天都会玩一个小游戏：看看我能多少次让对话对象感到被倾听，从而说出‘没错’这个词。
A little game I play during the course of my day is to see how many times I can get my interlocutor, the person I'm talking to, to say the word exactly because they feel heard.
一旦你为人们做到了这一点，他们就会对你言听计从。
Once you've done that for people, they eat out of the palm of your hand.
此外，那些微小的行为似乎能带来最大的改变。
Plus, how small actions seem to cause the biggest change.
这一集现在已经发布了。
The episode is out now.
在你收听播客的平台搜索并关注《与普里特同行》。
Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
如果你现在转向你的父母，而不是你的男朋友，和他们谈谈公开宣告，把羞耻转化为自豪，那种不藏在秘密背后的接纳。
If you turn to your parents now, not to your boyfriend, but to your parents, and you talked with them about public declaration, turning shame into pride, acceptance, acceptance that doesn't sit on a secret.
最重要的是，释放这个秘密，这样你就不用再为了保护他们而把它藏在心里。
And primarily, releasing the secret so that you don't have to hold it in order to protect them.
这就是释放。
That's the release.
他们说出来了，但为时已晚。
They told it, but it was too late.
他们说了。
They said it.
不。
No.
他们只说了一件事。
They just said one thing.
你18岁时和父亲发生了什么冲突，导致他把猫从帽子里放出来了，正如人们所说的那样？
What was the conflict you had with your dad at 18 that led him to let the cat out of the the hat, as they say?
我发现了他的婚外情，并告诉了我妈妈。
I I discovered his affair and told my mom about it.
他给我打了电话。
He called me.
他非常生气，显然他认为事情就这样结束了，他当时很愤怒，只想伤害我。
He was very, obviously he thought that that was it, that was at the end and he was angry and he just wanted to hurt me, I think, at that time.
我当时在家里的大学读书。
I was in university back home.
我只在那里待了很短一段时间就搬走了。
I only went there for very short time before I moved away.
所以
And So
他说，你想通过告诉妈妈来伤害我。
he was saying you wanna hurt me by making me public to your mom.
嗯。
Mhmm.
让我告诉你。
Let me tell you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我知道该用什么来伤害你。
And I know what I can use to hurt you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但他做不到，因为我打断了他。
But he couldn't because I kind of interrupted.
但那不是他告诉我的。
But that wasn't he told me.
那不是他告诉你的话。
That wasn't him telling you.
不。
No.
那实际上是他在报复。
That was him basically exercising revenge.
你以为你占了上风吗？
You think you have one up on me?
让我告诉你，我才是占上风的那个。
Let me tell you, one on you.
那是完全不同的游戏。
That's a different game.
你妈妈那边，你到现在还没和她谈过这件事。
And your mom, you still haven't had a conversation with her about it.
我确实谈过，五年前我刚开始经历这一切时，我打电话给她，哭着说，这真的深深伤害了我。
I had it in terms of but when I had, five years ago, started to go through this, I called and cried and said, you know, this has really deeply hurt me.
所以那时我已经把所有感受都说出来了，我说的是
So I did say everything then, what I felt, and I said it was
她能听进去吗？
And was she able to hear you?
没有，没有完全听进去。
Not not fully.
我想几年前我们又发生过一次冲突，她反应特别激烈，说你知道吗，因为我告诉她，我仍然希望保持同样的亲密关系，你知道的，我们曾经非常亲近，但我需要空间。
I don't think we had another conflict a couple of years ago where I she took it so badly that she said, you know, because I said, I'm still she still wanted to have the same kind of connection, you know, but we were very close and I needed space.
她对此反应非常糟糕，感到深受伤害，情绪失控。等她平静下来后，我也安抚了她，然后我对她说，这并不是我不爱她，而是这种关系让我窒息。
And she took it very badly, she took it very hurtfully, she was hysterical and I after she calmed down and I calmed her down, I I said to her that it's it's not that I don't love her, it's that it's suffocating me.
我需要和她保持距离，也需要我的姐妹们介入并承担起这段关系中的责任。
And that's that I need to disconnect from her and I need my sisters to step up into this relationship.
所以，我不再总是照顾她的情绪，那些她和我爸爸之间的冲突，她以前都会跟我分享，但我说：不，再也不了。
So, I am not the one who is always looking after her emotional being and, you know, all these conflicts with my dad that she had, she used to share with me and I said, No, not anymore.
我不想再听任何事了。
I don't wanna hear anything anymore.
实际上，他们现在的关系改善了，因为我觉得我退后了。
And actually their relationship improved now because I think I stepped down.
我退后了，我远离了，我让我的姐妹们接替了上来。
I stepped down, I stepped away, I moved my sister stepped up.
他们开始感觉稍微摆脱了我的阴影。
They started to feel a bit more out of my shadow.
所以你做了很多。
So you did a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
我为这个做了很多，那个
I did a lot for the The
家庭结构的调整。
family restructuring.
是的。
Yes.
真美。
Beautiful.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但她仍然很难谈论这件事，不过她正在努力。
But she still struggles to talk to talk about it, but she's trying.
她给我写了好多信，说她不知道自己怎么了，我理解，因为我知道嗯。
She wrote me a lot of letters to say how she doesn't know what comes over her and I understand because I know Mhmm.
这些伤口是如何运作的。
How these wounds work.
她在我们的对话中一直非常温柔、柔和，你知道的。
She's been very gentle and soft, you know, in in our conversations.
但我也觉得她淡化了我姐妹们的经历，这不公平，因为我想和她们一起庆祝。
But also, I feel like she downplays the the experiences of my sisters, which is not fair because, you know, I want to celebrate with them.
你知道，这些经历对她们来说很美好、很重要，我希望她们能为此感到自豪。
You know, they they are beautiful experiences for them and important and I want them to celebrate it.
但我总觉得自己在这所有事情中都是个碍事的人，尤其是我和妈妈、爸爸以及那个隐形人之间的三角关系中。
But I feel like I'm just always in the way with all this, with my stuff, especially with the trio, the triangle of me, my mom and my dad, and the invisible man.
不知怎么的，那里明明有我们四个人，而她们却只能在一边旁观。
Somehow, it's four of us there and then they are on the sidelines.
你让我确认一下，我有没有理解对。
Tell me if I hear this right.
我看我父母的婚姻，它在教会中是正式的，在法律上也是合法的，但里面却充满了秘密。
I look at my parents' marriage and it is official and it is sanctified by the church, and it is legal by the state, and yet it is filled with secrets.
我身世的秘密，还有我父亲的婚外情，以及不知道还有什么别的。
My secret of my origin, but also my father's affair and who knows what else.
我
I
看看我和我的男友、我的伴侣，我们没有经过任何公共机构的祝福、法律认可或正式承认，但我们没有秘密。
look at me and my boyfriend and my partner, and we are not sanctified nor legal nor recognized by any public institution, but we don't have secrets.
我们在成长。
We grow.
我们坦诚相待。
We are open.
我们彼此支持。
We're there for each other.
而我现在正面对着这样一个机会，也面对着官方声明所呈现和意味着的东西与实际关系体验之间的虚假性，即使没有那些头衔。
And here I am facing the opportunity, but also the falsity of what the official declaration presents and means versus what happens in the actual experience of the relationship even if the titles are not there.
我听对了吗？
Did I hear it accurately?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
所以我一直想要一种与传统关系相反的关系。
So, I always wanted an opposite of the relationship.
这一直是我追求的目标。
That's what I always was going for.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我希望在一段关系中拥有真相、真实、信任、诚实、安全、发现、探索和成长，所有这些美好而丰富的东西。
Want truth, authenticity, trust, honesty, safety, discovery, exploration, growth, all these beautiful juicy things in a relationship.
我也希望这些能被公开宣告。
And I want that to be declared.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我可以找到各种方式来创造仪式、庆祝活动和机会，邀请我所邀请的任何人加入我的社群。
I can find ways to create rituals and celebrations and opportunities to bring in the community whoever I invite.
我并不确定是否想要所有的头衔，因为事实上，那些头衔背后往往隐藏着一张秘密和未被承认的真相之网。
It's not sure that I want all the titles when in fact it feels that behind that there's a web of secrets and unacknowledged truths.
我五年前就开始了这个过程。
And I started this process five years ago.
我姐姐宣布结婚，这促使我迈出了这个过程的下一步。
And my sister's announcement of her marriage led me to the next step in this process.
嗯。
Yeah.
我觉得过去这48小时发生的事是一个巨大的转变。
I feel like it's a big step what happened over these past forty eight hours.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得，有些东西发生了变化，甚至比那时的变化还要大。
Something shifted, I think, more than it shifted then even.
怎么
How
会这样？
is this?
它就停在那里。
It it sits.
它正在降落。
It's landing.
它降落得更好了。
It's it's landing better.
但我希望我不是仅仅在安慰自己。
But, I hope I'm not just trying to soothe myself.
你知道的，因为我是个讲故事的人。
It's, you know, like, because I'm such a story teller.
我只是希望我不是在这么做。
Like, I'm just hoping that I'm not just doing it.
因为听起来不错。
Because it sounds good.
嗯。
Mhmm.
听起来更好了。
It sounds better.
嗯。
Yeah.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，这就是我想开始去观察的，看看这个想法是否被采纳了，因为它还很新鲜。
So, that's what I think I want to start to see if if this thought is taken because it's quite fresh.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这是一个故事，但另一个版本也是。
This is a story, but so is the other version.
而你可以选择相信哪个故事。
And you can decide which story you wanna live by.
并不是只有一个真实的故事，另一个就不真实，至少在这里不是这样。
It's not like there is one true story and the other is not, At least not here.
这是一次阿斯塔ire的来电，一次远程从世界两个不同地点录制的单次干预电话。
This was an Astaire calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
如果你有一个想与阿斯塔ire探讨的问题，并且能在四十到五十分钟的电话中得到解答，可以给她发一段语音留言，阿斯塔ire可能会给你回电。
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you.
请将你的问题发送至 producer@EstherPerel.com。
Send your question to producer@EstherPerel.com.
《与伊斯特·佩雷尔开始》由Magnificent Noise制作。
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
我们是Vox Media播客网络的一部分，与《纽约杂志》和《The Cut》合作。
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
我们的制作团队包括埃里克·纽索姆、德斯特里·西布尔、萨布丽娜·法尔希、克里斯汀·穆勒和朱利安·哈特。
Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt.
原创音乐及额外制作由保罗·施耐德完成。
Original music, an additional production, by Paul Schneider.
《我们从哪里开始》的执行制片人是谁？
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?
是伊斯特·佩雷尔和杰西·贝克。
Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
我们还要感谢科特尼·汉密尔顿、玛丽·艾丽斯·米勒和杰克·索尔。
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
本节目由Odoo赞助。
Support for this show comes from Odoo.
经营企业已经够难了，为什么还要用十几个互不相通的应用程序让事情变得更复杂呢？
Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?
介绍Odoo。
Introducing Odoo.
这是你唯一需要的商业软件。
It's the only business software you'll ever need.
它是一个一体化、完全集成的平台，让您的工作更轻松。
It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
客户关系管理、会计、库存、电子商务等。
CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.
最棒的是什么？
And the best part?
Odoo 以极低的成本取代了多个昂贵的平台。
Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
因此，成千上万家企业已经选择了切换到 Odoo。
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
那你为什么不来试试呢？
So why not you?
前往 odoo.com 免费试用 Odoo。
Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.
那就是 odoo.com。
That's odoo.com.
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