我爱上了我最好的朋友

你好，Esther。

Hello, Esther.

我的问题围绕着我与一位已不在我生命中的挚友的过往友谊。

My question is centered on a previous friendship of mine with a best friend who is no longer in my life.

我爱上了我最好的朋友，他对我怀有单恋之情，我们的友谊变得如此亲密，以至于发展到仅仅做朋友让我痛苦不堪的地步，于是我告诉他我们需要坚决地分开一段时间。

I fell in love with my best friend who shared Unrequited feelings for me and our friendship became so intimate that I got to a point where it hurt too much to just be friends with him So I told him we needed to take an determined amount of time apart from seeing each other.

我想问你的问题有两个方面。

My question for you is twofold.

我该如何面对这份心碎与困惑？这个人曾让我感到无比平静，我们之间有过超然的爱。

How do I navigate this heartbreak and confusion for someone who truly felt like calm to me and experienced transcendent love with.

其次，我该如何学会放手，并向新的潜在浪漫伴侣敞开心扉？

And secondly, how can I learn to let go and open myself up to new potential romantic partners?

我总是忍不住将潜在伴侣与他作比较。

I really struggle with comparing potential partners to him.

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网址是odoo.com。

That's odoo.com.

你到底是什么样的人？

Who are you really?

内向者？

Introvert?

外向者？

Extrovert?

也许你是双鱼座。

Maybe you're a Pisces.

一些科学家认为，我们的思考方式完全错了。

According to some scientists, we're thinking about it all wrong.

我常说，学术人格科学需要一位公关专家，因为我们实在不擅长传播人格的真正含义。

I always say that, you know, academic personality science needs, like, a PR person because we're not really good at spreading the word on what personality actually is.

这就是本周的《向我解释》节目内容。

That's this week on explain it to me.

每周日更新新一集，你可以在任何播客平台收听。

New episode Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.

我刚刚在听你说话，我在想，这是我第一次听到这些内容。

I was listening to you, and I thought, I'm hearing this for the first time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你已经听过自己说这些了。

But you're hearing yourself again.

感觉如何？

What's it like?

我觉得可能有一点变化的是，或许不一定是处理心碎的感觉，而是困惑于为什么我会这样——为什么一个人能让我感觉像家一样，和他在一起的每个瞬间都像触摸天堂？

I think one thing that might have shifted a little bit is maybe not necessarily navigating the heartbreak, but just the confusion for how can I feel this way where someone feels like home to me and no moments with him can feel like touching the heavens?

为什么这会是单相思？

How can this be unrequited?

但最重要的是，我一直在尝试约会，但没有人能比得上他。

But then most importantly too, I've been trying to go dating, and no one measures up.

我知道爱情应该是什么感觉，我不想要一个打了折扣的版本。

And I know what love should feel like, and I don't want a watered down version of it.

我听到了两个问题。

I hear two questions.

一个是告诉我我是否理解对了。

One is tell me if I hear you well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果我感觉我们一起触碰到了天堂，他怎么可能没有同样的感觉？

If I felt that we were touching the heavens together, how can it be that he didn't feel it?

对吧？

Right?

是不是这样？

Is that is that yeah?

嗯

Mhmm.

第二个问题是，我该如何哀悼我最好朋友的离去？

The second one is about how do I grieve the loss of my best friend?

第三个问题是，当我意识到自己如此判断失误，以为我们拥有共同的现实，但似乎并非如此时，我该如何允许自己再次坠入爱河？现在我遇到新人时，我又该如何信任自己？

And the third one is how do I allow myself to fall in love again when I have the sense that I was so off and that I thought we had a shared reality and it doesn't seem like we did, how would I trust myself now when I meet someone new?

是的

Yeah.

最后这个观点说得非常到位

That speaks speaks loud, that last perspective.

多告诉我一些发生了什么

Tell me a little bit more what happened.

具体说说发生了什么故事？

Give me actually what's the story?

这里发生了什么？

What happened here?

你是谁？

Who are you?

发生了什么？

What happened?

他是谁？

Who was he?

这种情况持续了多久？

How long did this go on?

在我们处理这些难题之前，先跟我讲讲这段关系的历史背景，这段友谊，以及你是如何爱上他的。

You know, before we we tackle the difficult questions, give me a little bit of the the history of this relationship, this friendship, this falling in love with him.

我不知道该从何说起，整件事的来龙去脉。

I don't know when to how you know, the whole thing.

大约三年前，我们在一个交友软件上配对成功，决定见面约会，一起去越野滑雪。

So about three years ago, we matched on a dating app, and we decided to meet up on a date, went cross country skiing.

当时我们立刻就产生了这种自然而然的默契连接。

And it was just this immediate connection and effortless connection for me.

我知道我想探索那里有什么。

And I know I wanted to explore what was there.

当我表示想进行第二次约会时，他并不感兴趣，但我们同意继续以朋友身份相处。

And when I had shared wanting to go on a second date, he was not interested, but we did agree to keep hanging out as friends.

于是接下来的几年里，我一直在友谊与克制感情之间艰难地保持平衡。

And so for a couple of years, I would do this really challenging choreography of straddling between friendship and keeping those feelings at bay.

这些感情随时间推移只变得更加强烈。

They only got stronger with time.

我不想说这是段不寻常的友谊，因为这只是我基于自身文化背景的理解——我的成长经历使然。

And I don't wanna say it was an unusual friendship because that's just my cultural understanding of it, of how I was born and raised.

但我们确实

But we did What

你是指什么？

do you mean?

你这么说是什么意思？

What do you mean by that?

大多数周末我们都在一起度过。

Most weekends, we'd be with each other.

我们每周都会保持联系。

We'd speak throughout the week.

无论是小事还是大事我都参与其中，他也同样如此。

I would be involved in both the small and big moments with him, and it was reciprocated.

他的一些朋友开玩笑说我们互相依赖，不是贬义，只是说我们作为非情侣关系却花了大量时间相处。

And some of his friends have joked that we're codependent on each other, not in a negative way, but just that we spend a lot of time with each other for people that are not dating.

你之前提到这与你的文化认知不同，具体是指什么？

And what did you mean when you talked about that it was different from your cultural understanding?

什么？

What?

我想每个人对正常友谊都有自己的标准。

I think we all have ideas of what is and isn't a normal friendship.

在我看来，友谊就是和那个人一起出去玩。

So how I see friendship is like, you know, I hang out with that person.

我们会共度时光，但不像这段友谊那样每天都有持续的互动。

We spend time with each other, but it's not like a consistent every day interaction where with this friendship it was.

所以对我来说，在日常生活中如此深入地参与另一个人的生活，是我在其他友谊中不曾有过的体验，不知道这样说是否清楚。

So for me, to be so involved in someone else's life on my everyday level was is not something I have with other friendships, if that makes sense.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你们彼此都称对方为最好的朋友吗？

And you both called each other best friends?

是的。

Yes.

所以这种关系的认知基础是友谊。

So part of the understanding is friendship.

我不知道去哪里找标准来衡量：人们每周需要见面多少次才算是友谊，多少次算柏拉图式关系，多少次又算是相互依赖的关系。

I don't know where one finds the accurate measurement of how many times a week people need to meet that is called friendship versus that is called a platonic relationship versus that is called a codependent relationship.

为什么要从一开始就给这种关系贴上病态的标签呢？

Why why pathologize this to begin with?

但很明显的是，在他心目中你是一位非常亲密的朋友。而对你来说，你希望成为非常亲密的朋友，但从第一次约会开始你就心知肚明——你一直期待他能改变想法，能意识到你们之间存在着某种特别的情感，希望他终将把这段关系称为浪漫爱情而非仅仅是友谊。

But what was clear is that in his mind, you were a very close friend, And for you, you were wanting it to be a very close friend, but you knew all along that from the first date, you were hoping that he would change his mind and that he would realize that you share something so special together and that he too would begin to call this romantic love and not just friendship.

这种想法或许确实潜藏在我心底，但我始终感觉我们只会停留在朋友关系。

Possibly that could be in the background, but I felt like I always knew we were just going to be friends.

我告诉他我们需要暂停部分原因是在我们友谊的某个阶段，他曾透露自己对前女友仍有感情，而我和我的朋友当时还鼓励他重新联系对方，看看是否还有可能。

And part of the reason that I told him we needed to take a pause was at one point in our friendship he had shared that he still had feelings for an ex, and myself and my friend had encouraged him to reach back out and see what could still be there.

他对这段过去的关系如此确信，而他们确实复合了。

He felt so certain about this past relationship he was in, and they did.

他们复合了，这让我非常痛苦。

And they got back together, and that was really painful for me.

但同时，我也希望他过得好。

But also, I want the best for him.

所以我想我一直明白我们只是朋友，这就是为什么我会做出那样的举动——建议他重新联系前女友。

And so I think I always knew we were just friends, which is why I would have done an action like that proposed that he reach back out to his ex.

自从他们复合后，虽然很痛苦，但我直觉上明白我们不能再做朋友了。

And ever since they got back together, I just it was painful, but I I knew intuitively we couldn't be friends anymore.

只要你还和别人在一起，以我们目前的关系，仅仅做朋友让我太痛苦了。

So as long as you're with someone else, it hurts too much to just be friends with you with how our relationship is right now.

他怎么说？

And he said?

当我跟他谈这件事时，我坦承从我们初次相遇时起，这份感情就从未消失过。

When I had that conversation with him, I shared that I had feelings that have never gone away since we first met.

当然，当我说出这句话时，谈话出现了停顿。

And, of course, there was some pause when I said that.

我不知道他会如何回应。

I I didn't know how he would respond.

而他第一个问题是，我是否已经跟朋友们讨论过这件事？

And his first question was, had I spoken with my friends about it already?

比如，这个决定感觉对吗？

Like, does it feel like the right decision?

但接着第二点，他说，在这种情况下我能帮上什么忙？

But then two, he said, how can I help out in this situation?

我能做些什么？

What can I do?

这些回应都不是。

Which those responses, no.

告诉我吧。

Let me know.

永远是友谊。

Always friendship.

仅此而已。

Nothing more.

但他关心我，非常尊重我，并愿意在力所能及的地方提供帮助。

But he cares for me and and holds me in high regard and wants to help out where he can.

但我告诉他，真的只需要分开一段时间，让我们暂停关系，这样我才能想清楚，我们能否维持这段友谊。

But I told him really just the separation, the time apart, and just to pause so I can figure out, can we make this friendship work?

那是大约半年前的事了，自那以后我们就再没联系过。

That was about half a year ago, and we haven't spoken since other than that.

我确实告诉过他，你知道的，但愿不会发生，但万一彼此生活中有什么不好的事情发生。

I did tell him, you know, God forbid, anything bad happens in each other's lives.

我不希望我们完全不分享这些生活近况。

I don't want us to not share any of those updates.

我仍然想在他需要时陪伴他。

I still wanna be there for him.

所以当发生家庭紧急情况时，我确实联系了他。

So I did reach out when a family emergency happened.

但除此之外，我们再也没有联系过，而且我觉得我可能永远不会再主动联系他了，因为我无法想象和他保持纯粹的友谊而不受伤，这样说你能明白吗？

But other than that, we haven't spoken since, and I don't anticipate I probably will ever will reach out to him again because I can't imagine just friendship with him without it hurting, if that makes sense.

而你帮他与前女友复合，就像如果我把他介绍给别人，我就不会被他拒绝得那么彻底，因为是我主动把他推出去的？

And you helped him reconnect with this ex as if if I introduce him to someone else, then I won't be so rejected by him because I will have been the one to send him out?

有可能。

Possibly.

你在摇头。

You're shaking your head.

我还没想过这一点。

I haven't thought about that.

我是不是无意中这么做了？

Did I unknowingly do that?

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧。

Perhaps.

有可能。

Perhaps.

我无法忍受你离我如此之近却不属于我，所以我要把你推给别人，这样拉开距离的人是我而不是你。

I can't tolerate you being so close to me and not with me that I'm going to send you off to be with someone else, but I will have been the one to create the distance and not you.

这很可能就是实际情况。

That could be well, what happened.

在我们友谊的某个阶段，他开始和别人约会，这让我感到极度痛苦和心碎。

I, at one point in our friendship, he had started seeing someone, and that was huge heartache, heartbreak for me.

那是他自己找到的那个人。

That was him finding that person on their own.

过了一段时间后这段关系无疾而终，但也许也许这就是我让他和前女友复合时做的事。

It didn't go anywhere after a while, but maybe maybe that's what I did when I reconnected him with his ex.

也许吧。

Maybe.

你说这话时，心里是什么感受？

What what does that bring up for you, as you say?

也许当你呼出那口气并摇头的时候。

Maybe and as you blow the air out and as you shake your head.

我感觉或许我直觉知道必须做出改变，而通过我的那个举动，事情会以某种未知的方式发生变化。

I'm feeling that maybe intuitively I knew something had to change and by maybe by me taking that action, things would shift in a way unknowingly not knowing how it would.

但我可以说现在痛苦减轻了，即使是分离也比和他在一起时好受。

But I can tell you it hurts less now, even the separation than being with him.

所以到头来，也许我做那个举动是为了自己。

So maybe I did that action for myself at the end of the day.

这让你看清了事实。

It gave you clarity.

它帮你画上了句号，或者至少是个逗号，句子中的逗号，又或许是个分号。

It helped you create a closure, or at least a comma, comma in the sentence or a semicolon, maybe.

它帮你为这段关系做了个了结。

It helped you punctuate the relationship.

正如你所说，当他问出‘我能为你做些什么’时，

And as you say, once he said, how can I help you?

你明白了你们已不在同一个位置。

You understood that you are not in the same place.

你们不再拥有相同的感受。

You don't share the same feelings.

你们彼此都深深关心着对方。

You deeply care for each other, both of you.

但在这一刻，你需要创造一个能让自己爱上别人的空间——如果你选择这样做的话。

But at this moment, you need to create a place and a space where you can fall in love with someone else if you so choose.

嗯

Mhmm.

想到你说的停顿或逗号，也许不一定是完全的解决，但那是个句号。

Thinking about you saying the pause or the the comma, maybe not necessarily complete resolution, but that was the period.

是啊

Yeah.

那是我希望在对话中推进的一点，虽然当时感觉根本不可能谈下去。

I that was one thing that I wish I would have pushed in that conversation, which felt impossible in the moment to have.

我…我只是希望能知道他当时在想什么。

I I just wish I could've I could hear what was going on in his head.

倒不是我配知道这些，也许知道了也改变不了什么，但就是…我也不清楚。

Not that I deserved that and not that I maybe that wouldn't have made a difference, but there's still I don't know.

我内心有一部分觉得，如果我能听到他真实坦诚地回应，说出他的感受和想法，那会比仅仅问一句'我能帮上什么忙？'对我更有帮助。

Part of me feels like if I could have heard an honest, candid response as to every like, what he was feeling and thinking, that would have helped me a little bit more as opposed to just saying, how can I help out?

你有仔细考虑过这件事吗？

Have you thought about this through?

我们暂停期间的界限是什么？

What are the boundaries when we take this pause?

我内心有一部分希望我曾要求他分享。

Part of me wishes I would have asked for him to share.

并不是说他会有任何成形的想法，因为我确定那次对话完全让他措手不及，100% 是让他措手不及。

Not that he would have had any formulated thoughts because I know I definitely took him off guard 100% with that conversation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

哪一部分？

Which part of it?

是你一直对他有感情却未能表露的事实，还是你知道一旦表露就可能得不到回应，或是你之后会切断联系以保护自己？

The fact that you had feelings for him all along that you had not been able to reveal, or that you knew that once you would reveal them, there was a chance that he may not reciprocate, or that you were going to cut off after that to protect yourself?

我想你提到的几种情况都有一点。

I think a little bit of a couple of the scenarios you gave.

我认为自从我们第一次约会后，我再也没有表达过兴趣。

I think it there definitely was ever since we went on that first date, I never once ever again expressed interest.

我早就知道我们只会是朋友关系。

I knew it was always just gonna be friendship.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我尽力用各种方式把自己放在朋友的位置上。

And I did my best to to friend zone myself in many ways.

你是怎么做到的？

How did you do it?

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得就是通过谈论我的感情生活。

I think just talking about my dating life.

在我看来，如果我谈论自己的感情生活，就会让他感觉更像朋友，因为人们通常会和关心的人聊这些话题。

In my mind, if I'm talking about my dating life, that's gonna make him feel more like a friend because he talks about that with someone that you care about.

聪明。

Clever.

这是其中一点。

That was one thing.

他也这样吗？

Did he too?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是双向的。

It went both ways.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有时候我会想，没错。

And there would be times where I thought, yep.

我成功把自己划入了朋友区。

I was successful in friend zoning myself.

我只把他当朋友看待。

I only see him as a friend.

然后事情可能突然发生转变，当他们重新出现时，让我意识到这些感情可能永远不会完全消失。

And then there could just be a sudden sudden change where they just came back and made me realize it was feelings are probably never going to completely go away.

它们依然会在背景中存在。

They'll still be there in the background.

回到你的问题，我想他当时也被这种彻底的断绝关系打了个措手不及。

And then to your question too, I think I think he was also caught off guard of just completely, like, the excommunication.

就像，我们不会再见面了。

Like, we're not we're not gonna see each other.

我知道这对他很艰难，因为我们彼此都视对方为最好的朋友。

And I know that was difficult for him because we both considered each other best friends.

我们曾经共度了那么多时光。

We spent so much of our time with each other.

所以这也彻底颠覆了他的世界。

So that was changing his world upside down too.

我很好奇，因为你提到了你的朋友们以及他们如何看待你与他的关系。

I was wondering because you mentioned your friends and how they viewed your relationship with him.

在这个故事里，你的朋友们扮演什么角色？

Where are your friends in this story?

我的朋友们一直对这段友谊持谨慎态度。

My friends have been cautious of the friendship.

从第一天在约会中认识这位朋友起，我就立刻给好几个朋友打了电话。

From day one when I met this friend on a date, I immediately had to call several friends.

我说：你们绝对猜不到我今天经历了什么。

I said, you'll never guess what my day has turned into.

我简直欣喜若狂。

I'm feeling over the moon.

就像，我从没想过能遇到这样的人。

Like, I didn't know I could meet someone like this.

不过当我告诉他们我们只会做朋友时，我觉得他们都持保留态度。

And but once I told them that we were just gonna be friends, I think they all had reservations.

就像，如果你感情这么强烈，这真的是个好主意吗？

Like, if you feel this strongly, is that a good idea?

但我已经表明会把它当作普通友谊来对待，不过他们显然...

But I had shared that I would just treat it as a friendship, but they definitely

他们很了解你吗？

They know you well?

他们非常了解我。

They know me very well.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

他们知道你是个容易在感情中受伤的人吗？

Have they known you to be someone who gets hurt by love?

这个问题很难回答。

It's hard to answer that.

我直到成年后，二十出头才出柜，所以直到现在，我都没有过一段长期的恋爱关系。

I didn't come out till later in my adult life, in my early twenties, and so I and to this day, haven't been in a long term relationship.

所以我认为他们从未见过我在爱情中受到浪漫伤害的样子。

So I don't think they've ever seen me hurt by love romantically.

这就是问题所在。

That's the question.

你是向全世界出柜了还是只对我出柜了？

Are you out to to the world or just I am.

我已经向家人和朋友出柜了。

I'm out to family, friends.

我是100%公开的。

I'm 100% open.

是的。

Yeah.

你之前有过其他长期关系或其他关系吗？

Had you been in other long term relationships before or other relationships before?

短期关系，没有专一的那种。

Short term, nothing exclusive.

对于我表示过兴趣的少数人，我似乎总能找到理由抽身而退。

I always seem to find a reason to pull away with the limited people that I have expressed interest in.

我认为部分原因可能是我年轻时缺乏常规的约会经历。

And I think that's part of that might just be by not having that regular dating life from a young age.

如今作为成年人，我对恋爱关系变得非常慎重。

I place a lot of seriousness now as an adult into dating someone.

我们需要短暂休息一下。

We have to take a brief break.

请继续关注，让我们看看事情会如何发展。

So stay with us, and let's see where this goes.

本节目由Odoo赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Odoo.

经营企业已经够难了，何必再用十几个互不兼容的应用程序给自己添麻烦呢？

Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

隆重推出Odoo

Introducing Odoo.

这是您唯一需要的商业软件

It's the only business software you'll ever need.

它是一个全功能一体化平台，让您的工作更轻松

It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.

包含客户关系管理、财务、库存、电商等所有功能

CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.

最棒的部分是什么？

And the best part?

Odoo能以极低成本替代多个昂贵平台

Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

这就是为什么已有数千家企业选择转换

That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.

您还在等什么呢？

So why not you?

免费试用Odoo，请访问odoo.com。

Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.

网址是odoo.com。

That's odoo.com.

过去几年间，一个重大理念逐渐深入人心。

Over the last few years, a big idea has taken root.

树木之间可能正在相互交流。

Trees might be talking to each other.

有人称之为'木联网'。

Some call it the wood wide web.

木联网。

The wood wide web.

木联网。

The wood wide web.

这一切都发生在地下。

And it's all happening underground.

在地下，存在着另一个世界，一个由无数生物通路构成的网络，连接树木并让它们得以交流，使整片森林表现得如同一个单一的生命体。

Underground, there is this other world, a world of infinite biological pathways that connect trees and allow them to communicate and allow the forest to behave as though it's a single organism.

这幅画面很美，但它是真实的吗？

It's a beautiful image, but is it real?

许多人可能对森林的运作方式抱有一种近乎幻想的理解，而非真实的图景。

Lots of people potentially are sort of getting this somewhat of a fantasy about how forests work rather than the true picture.

这是一场值得欢迎的辩论。

It's a welcome debate.

我们需要深入探究，弄清楚到底发生了什么。

We need to lean in and figure out what is actually happening.

本周《不可言说》节目将讲述会说话的树木及其引发的争议。

This week on Unexplainable, the story of the talking trees and the pushback.

每周三请在各平台订阅《不可言说》节目，收听最新内容。

Follow unexplainable wherever you listen for new episodes every Wednesday.

《Entre Nous》是我在Substack的新专栏，献给所有渴望以更多联结、自信、想象力和趣味性来生活、恋爱与工作的人。

Entre Nous is my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love and work with more connection, confidence, imagination and playfulness.

我将为您带来临床洞察与文化评论及社区对话的融合。

I bring to you the combination of clinical insight with cultural commentary and community dialogue.

我希望开启一场对我们当下人际关系复杂性的集体探索。

What I want to do is kick off a collective exploration of the intricacies of our relationships at this moment.

请加入我在Substack的每周写作，与其他创作者进行直播互动，并为付费订阅者提供社区讨论论坛，以加强我们彼此间的关系与联系。

Please join me on Substack, where I'll be writing to you weekly, hosting live streams with other creators, and for my paid subscribers, offering community discussion forums to strengthen our relationships and connections to one another.

付费会员还将获得我的播客《我们该从何开始？》的无广告版本。

Paying members will also get ad free episodes of my podcast, Where Should We Begin?

以及我们所有独家办公时间特别节目。

And all of our exclusive office hours bonus episodes.

我邀请您注册成为我的Entre Nous社区成员（免费或付费），网址是hesterparelle.substack.com。

I invite you to sign up and become a member, either free or paid, to my Entre Nous community at hesterparelle.substack.com.

关于你出柜的经历，有什么是我应该知道的吗？

Is there anything I should know about your experience of coming out?

对我来说，成长过程中，我生活在一个保守的小地方，父母中有一方在教堂工作。

So for me, growing up, I was grew up in a small conservative area with a parent that was worked for the church.

再加上我所在教会的教义，让我对身为同性恋、酷儿身份产生了强烈的内在羞耻感。

And just with the teachings that my church has lots of internalized shame from being gay, from being queer.

不幸的是，这种内化的羞耻感在我身上表现为社交焦虑。

And unfortunately, for me, manifested that internalized, shame into social anxiety.

所以那时候对我来说，向他人敞开心扉真的非常非常困难。

So opening up to others had at that time been really, really difficult for me.

但幸运的是，疫情期间我决定开始心理治疗，这彻底重组了我的生活，现在社交焦虑已不再阻碍我按照自己的价值观生活。

But fortunately, during COVID, I made the decision to start therapy, which really reorganized my whole life and where social anxiety is not a factor that inhibits me from living a life aligned with my values.

但我不确定还有什么关于出柜经历的内容可能对当前情境有帮助。

But I'm not sure what else I could say that might be helpful for the context of my of my story coming out.

有些朋友和家人很支持，虽然部分家人仍认为酷儿身份是罪孽，但他们依然爱我并参与我的生活。

Supportive friends, family, some family doesn't still believes being queer is sinful, but they still love me and are still in my life.

我能想象你在笑什么，但我想确认我们是因为同一件事发笑——或者说为同一件事会心微笑。

What's the I I can imagine what you're laughing at and about, but I wanna make sure that we're laughing about the same thing, so or smiling about the same thing.

对你而言是哪一种呢？

What which is it for you?

他们仍然爱我，但前提是

They still love me, but as long as

是啊。

Yeah.

我和你笑的是同一件事。

I'm laughing at the same thing as you.

爱怎么能建立在某些特定条件之上呢。

Just how can love shouldn't be conditional on certain certain items.

听你这么说，我在想的是...其实也许我应该先问你

So when I listen to you, what I'm wondering is Well, actually, maybe I ask you first.

能多谈谈社交焦虑吗？我的理解是当你遇见他时，你体验到了一种从未有过的亲密感和日常生活的共享

Tell me a little bit more about the social anxiety because what I'm understanding is that when you met him, you experienced with him a kind of closeness and a sharing of the everyday that in effect you had never experienced before.

是的，确实如此

Yes, it's true.

我们相识在我开始心理治疗之前，他陪伴我度过了许多人生关键节点，见证了我学会彻底自爱、自我关怀，以及真正从多方面放下内化的羞耻感

We met prior to me starting therapy, and he was with me during a lot of pivotal moments of my life with radical self love and self compassion and really letting go of internalized shame in many ways.

他在很多方面都作为我的支持系统存在。

He was there as a support system in many of those things.

我们还一起参加了布芮尼·布朗《不完美的礼物》读书会，他得以真正了解我社交焦虑的全貌及其对生活的影响。

We also we had done a book club on Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown, where he got to really see the landscape of what my social anxiety looked like and how it affected my life.

他是我拥有过的最深刻、最意义非凡的友谊。

He has been the deepest, most profound friendship I've ever had.

是的。

Yeah.

他是那个让我能以不同方式敞开心扉的人。

He's been that person that I haven't been open with other people in the same way.

是什么让你能做到这样的？

And what allowed you to do it?

因为你看，有时候我们会忍不住想'我能做到这些全是因为他是怎样的人'。

Because you see, sometimes we are tempted to think I could do all of this because of who he was.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但有时我们会开始意识到，我能做到这一切是因为我正在成为的那个自己。

But sometimes we begin to realize that I could do all of this because of who I was becoming.

是的。

Yeah.

关键词是'成为'。

That's the word becoming.

我觉得这很容易——我是说，我确信在我们友谊初期，我肯定会先试探性地分享一些事情。但无论我分享什么，都从未让他离开或改变对我的看法，他依然关心并爱着我，尽管我面临所有这些挑战。

I think it was so easy to I mean, I'm sure I definitely tested the waters first with what I was gonna share early on in our friendship, but no matter what I would share, it never made him walk away or see me differently or he still cared and loved me despite all those challenges that I had.

所以我确信，随着时间的推移，当我开始更多地展现和敞开心扉时，从未遇到过有人因此离开、用异样眼光看我或不再想维持这段关系的情况。

So I'm sure with time when I started to reveal and open myself up more, I was never met with someone walking away or viewing me differently or not wanting to have that relationship with me anymore.

托德，你刚才在想什么？

What did you just, Todd, think about?

你突然想到了什么。

Something just came into you.

是的。

Yeah.

我还在思考与他相关的'蜕变'这个词。

I'm still thinking about the word becoming with him.

我想说，他激励我成为最好的自己。

I I like to say that he inspired me to be the best version of myself.

所以当我听到'蜕变'这个词时，想到他是我成为今天这个样子的部分原因。

And so when I hear the word becoming, like, he's part of the reason of who I am and where I've gotten to today.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且

And

这是他活在你心中的一种美好方式。

that is one beautiful way that he lives inside of you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他是你人生旅途中的一位见证者，目睹你逐渐蜕变，见证你变得更加勇敢、坚定、真实、坦率，对自己和他人更加诚实，甚至可以说是充满激情的慈悲。

One of those witnesses that you met along the way in your life, who saw you coming out and who saw you becoming more bold, more assertive, more authentic, more forthcoming, more honest with yourself, with others, more radically compassionate, if you want.

但他关注着你，或者说陪伴你度过了人生中的这一重大转变。

But he watched you or he accompanied you in this mega transition in your life.

他和其他朋友们。

He and the other friends.

但他是那个站在保守社区、教会、或许还有你父母或其他家人对立面的人。

But he was the one who was on the other side of the conservative community, the church, maybe your parents, or these other family members.

因此他成为了你口中那个温暖的、包容的'家'——就像我们对话开始时你深情称呼的'我的归宿'。

And so he became the welcoming, accepting family that you so beautifully called in the beginning of our conversation, my home.

这是我发现很有帮助的一点。

That's been one thing that I find that's been helpful.

因为当我们最初不再见面时，我满脑子想的都是他，以及他不再出现在我生命中的事实。

Because when we first stopped seeing each other, that's all I could think about was him and him not being in my life.

为了减轻痛苦，我会列举他为我生命带来的美好事物、他改变我的地方以及我们共同的经历，这确实有所帮助。

In attempts to make it not hurt as bad, I would just say things that I was thankful for that he brought into my life or things that he changed about me or experience that we had, and that's been helpful.

所以听到你列举出他陪伴我经历的所有这些，让我能够大声说出来，对我很有帮助。

So just to hear you say all of that list of things that he's accompanied me with, it's been something that's been helpful for me to say that out loud.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他存在于你的生命中。

He is in your life.

虽然他此刻不在你身边。

He's not physically present at this moment.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且你心里明白，当你准备好重新联系时，他会一直在那里等你。

And you kind of know that when you are ready to reengage, he will be there.

所以他已成为你的一部分，是你生命中的一部分，但他现在并没有积极参与，因为据我理解，你现在想学习如何与他人共同体验这些。

So he is a part of you and he's a part of your life, but he's not actively involved because now, from what I understand, now you want to learn how you can experience this with other people.

你看，有时候当你第一次与某人共同经历某事时，你会把所有功劳都归于他们。

See, sometimes when you experience something for the first time with someone, you attribute it all to them.

是他们让我敞开心扉。

They're the ones who opened me up.

是他们给了我接纳感。

They're the ones who gave me the sense of acceptance.

是他们让我对自己更友善。

They're the ones who allowed me to become kinder with myself.

是他们让我变得放松。

They're the ones who loosened me up.

是他们让我能够展现幽默。

They're the ones who allowed me to be funny.

你明白吗？

You know?

他们他们他们，而不是他们和我。

They they they, and rather than they and me.

不只是他们，也不只是你，但其中很大一部分确实是你。

It's not just them and it's not just you, but it it's certainly you in a big in big part.

所以现在的问题是，我能和别人一起体验这个吗？

And so now it's, can I experience this with others?

为此，你必须想象不只是他一个人。

And for that, you have to imagine that it wasn't just him.

因为如果全是因为他，那当你不见他时这种感觉就会消失。

Because if it's all him, then it disappears when you don't see him.

如果这种感觉也存在于你内心，那么当你遇到别人时它就在那里，你就不会被比较所束缚。

If it's also inside of you, then it's there when you meet others, and you won't be crippled by comparison.

这对我来说真的很重要。

This is really important for me to hear.

我们稍后马上回来继续会议。

We'll be back with a session right after this.

虽然我们很感谢赞助商，但如果您想无广告收听本期内容，请点击'免费试用'按钮订阅Astaire的Apple播客办公时间。

And while we love our sponsors, if you wanna listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

本周《净值与放松》节目，我们邀请到了喜剧演员、编剧兼作家Joel Kimbooster，他将喜剧发展成了蓬勃的娱乐事业。

This week on Net Worth and Chill, we're joined by Joel Kimbooster, the comedian, actor, and writer who's turned comedy into a thriving entertainment career.

从Netflix喜剧特辑到创作夏季热门电影《火岛》，Joel按照自己的方式打造事业，同时以犀利幽默的方式讲述金钱、成功以及在好莱坞立足的真实含义。

From Netflix comedy specials to creating the summer hit movie Fire Island, Joel's built a career on his own terms while keeping it hilariously real about money, success, and what it means to make it in Hollywood.

他坦诚分享了喜剧行业的经营之道，如何在娱乐行业的财务起伏中航行，明智地投资收入，以及作为打破主流媒体壁垒的公开出柜韩裔美国艺术家如何积累财富。

He opens up about the business of comedy, navigating the financial ups and downs of the entertainment industry, investing his earnings wisely, and building wealth as an openly gay Korean American artist breaking barriers in mainstream media.

准备好聆听关于现金、思维方式以及如何将技艺转化为可持续职业的真诚对话。

Get ready for an honest conversation about cash, mindset, and what it really takes to turn your craft into a sustainable career.

在任意播客平台收听，或通过youtube.com/yourrichbff观看视频。

Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbff.

已被定罪的性犯罪者杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的电子邮件揭示了该国精英阶层的哪些真相？

What do convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's emails reveal about this nation's elite?

如果你作为外交专家协助推销一场最终被证实是谎言的战争，你反而会获得更优渥的教授职位和电视节目机会。

If you are a foreign affairs expert who helps sell a war that turns out to be a lie, you will literally get a better professorship and TV gig.