自我关爱并非我成长过程中所拥有的

在收听即将播出的《埃斯特来电》节目——我们讨论工作话题前，我想先向您预告一期我对艾拉·格拉斯的访谈。

Before you listen to the upcoming Esterre Calling, where we talk about work, I want to announce to you an upcoming interview conversation that I have had with Ira Glass, the host of This American Life, or in my words, the godfather of podcasts, where we too discuss work, especially when we come to a point where we are beginning to lose steam for something that still gives enormous pleasure to others.

我从九十年代就开始做广播节目，到现在已经800集了。

I've been doing the radio show I do since the nineties and, you know, it's 800 episodes.

我意识到，我究竟把生命耗费在了什么事情上？

And I'm aware of like, what am I spending my time on this earth doing?

或许我该尝试些新事物。

I probably should try something new.

比如，我甚至不知道那会是什么。

Like, I don't even know what what that would be.

我真的需要花时间好好想想

I'd really have to, like, take time and figure out

你多久会做一次今天在做的事？

what How often that have you done what you're doing today?

今天？

Today?

现在和我一起在这里。

Here with me now.

这是采访还是心理治疗？

Is this being interviewed or is this a therapy session?

什么？不。

What No.

是

Is

这是多种因素的结合。

It's a multitude of things.

但你这样做的频率有多高？

But like, how often have you done that?

你多少次在毫无准备的情况下参加别人的节目，带着些许可能的话题构想，纯粹出于好奇就出现了？

Gone on somebody else's show without any idea of what you're gonna talk about, with some ideas of what it could be, and just kind of showed up because you're curious.

这才是你来这里的主要原因，不是吗？

That's the main reason why you came, no?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

加入我和艾拉·格拉斯在苹果订阅的《办公时间》节目。

Join me and Ira Glass on Apple subscription on Office Hours.

本节目由Nature's Sunshine全新推出的Marine Glow Collagen赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Nature's Sunshine all new Marine Glow Collagen.

每年这个时候，夏日的炎热正逐渐消退。

It's that time of year when the summer heat is fading.

空气开始变得清爽。

The air is getting crisper.

树叶正在转红。

The leaves are turning red.

所有东西都开始带有肉桂和南瓜的风味。

Everything starts tasting like cinnamon and pumpkins.

随着日落时间提前，我们享受阳光的时间变少，接触蓝光的时间增多。

As the sun sets earlier, we spend less time with beams of sunshine and more time with the glow of blue light.

因此，Nature's Sunshine新推出的Marine Glow含有叶黄素等抗氧化剂，能有效阻隔蓝光，减少蓝光对皮肤和眼睛健康的损害。

That's why Nature's Sunshine New Glow contains the blue light blocking power of lutein and other antioxidants to combat the damage to skin and eye health from blue light exposure.

体验更光彩的肌肤和经科学验证的护眼效果——Nature's Sunshine全新Marine Glow是唯一经临床验证能同时维护眼部和肌肤健康，并有效防御蓝光的胶原蛋白产品。

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立即登录nature'ssunshine.com，尝试Nature's Sunshine全新海洋焕采胶原蛋白。

Try Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow now at nature'ssunshine.com.

本节目由Nordstrom赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Nordstrom.

气温转凉，正是前往Nordstrom升级衣橱的好时机。

Cooler temps are here, so it's time to level up your wardrobe at Nordstrom.

您将发现千余款百元以下的冬季必备单品。

You'll find the best cold weather must haves, including thousands of styles under a $100.

从UGG、Allsaints、Nordstrom、SKIMS到The North Face等品牌，选购从头到脚的温暖装备。

Shop head to toe cozy from faves like UGG, Allsaints, Nordstrom, SKIMS, The North Face, and more.

此外，免费送货、免费退货和快速订单取货让购物变得轻松。

Plus, free shipping, free returns, and quick order pickup make it easy.

无论是店内还是线上，现在是去Nordstrom购物的好时机。

In stores or online, it's time to go shopping at Nordstrom.

我大约一周半前刚回来。

So I just came back about a week and a half ago.

我在巴基斯坦与现在的丈夫结婚了。

I got married in Pakistan to my now husband.

所以我觉得和他的家人共度几周时间可能有助于我们建立联系，更好地了解彼此。

So I felt like maybe spending a few weeks with his family would help us bond and get to know each other better.

如果你对南亚婚礼有所了解，就知道它总是持续一周，充满了传统和仪式。但这也很难，因为我们试图在两大洲和三个国家之间进行规划。

If you're, at all aware of South Asian weddings, it's always like a week long full of traditions and rituals but it was also difficult because we were trying to plan it across two continents and three countries.

就我个人经历而言，我觉得婚礼以一种有点混乱的方式结束了，因为我发现了一些婚礼前并不知情的信息，我不确定如果事先知道这些，婚礼是否还会如期举行。

The wedding, at least for me in my experience, I feel like it kind of ended on a bit of a confusing note because I found out some information which I was not privy to before the wedding and I'm not sure if I had known before if the wedding would have gone through.

哦

Oh

哇，好吧。

wow, okay.

所以现在当然我们有个分叉点了，对吧？

So now of course we have a fork, right?

我可以说，你想和我聊些什么？

I can either say, what do you want to talk with me about?

我们要在这里继续吗？

Do we want to continue right here?

还是有其他问题？

Or is there a different question?

我觉得在某种程度上这两者是相关的。

I think in some ways both of them are related.

我最初来找你的问题是：如何开始自爱的旅程？

The question I came to you with initially was how do you begin the journey of self love?

这是我非常挣扎的事情，无论是在工作之外还是工作中。

It's something that I struggle a lot with, both externally to work as well as like at work.

我认为它会以不同的方式表现出来。

And I think it manifests itself in different ways.

所以

So

那么我请你自由地在两种情境下都展开谈谈。

So I'm gonna ask you to feel free to broaden it within both contexts.

对吧？

Right?

爱与工作可能是我们生活中最重要的两个领域。

Love and work are probably two of the major pools of our lives.

当你使用'自爱'这个词时——这个词既具有强烈的文化属性又非常当代，在美国和巴基斯坦可能有截然不同的含义，而对于游走在两种文化之间的你来说，又有着非常个人化的定义。

So when you use the word self love, which is a word that is at the same time very cultural, very contemporary, probably has very different meaning in The US versus Pakistan, and then has a very personal definition for you who lives between those two cultures as well.

你内心跨越着不同的世界，这些世界很可能深刻影响着你如何定义'自爱'这个词，以及你与之产生共鸣或认为自己配得上它的方式。

So you straddle different worlds inside of you and they probably deeply influence the way that you define the word self love and feel engaged with it or entitled to it.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我想背景是这样的：我在目前的公司已经工作了五年半，绝对是表现最优秀的员工之一。

I guess the context is I've been working at my current firm for the last five and a half years and I'm definitely a top performer.

刚开始这份工作时，我完全没想到会从事与现在类似的工作内容，但我在这个领域确实取得了很大成功。

When I started my job, I didn't think I would be doing anything remotely similar to that line of work, and I've been really successful at work with it.

但我似乎总是很难像雇主和团队那样看待自己，谈论自己的工作成就时总是缺乏自信。

But I always seem to struggle, like, talking about my work and seeing myself in the same light that my employer and my team sees me as.

我花了很长时间才获得上次晋升，因为我的工作性质与其他人不同，每次晋升都需要不同的商业案例支持。

And it took me a while to get my last promotion, which, you know, because I don't do the same type of work as everybody else, it's always a different business case for my promotion.

这总是让我产生自我怀疑。

And it kind of just always leads to self doubt.

比如，我的经理和团队经常说我的工作表现非常出色。

And, like, you know, I hear on my team with my manager, you're doing great work.

我带来的技能和业务是我们原本无法获得的。

You're bringing skills and work and business that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

但到了真正晋升的时候，机会却总是不属于我。

But then when it comes time for a promotion, I don't get it.

有时候我觉得是因为我没有为自己发声。

And sometimes I feel like it's because I don't speak up for myself.

当我跟别人谈起这件事时，谈话总是以'我非常有自知之明'结束。

When I talk to other people about this, the conversation always ends up with, I'm super self aware.

我知道自己想要什么。

I know what I want.

我知道该怎么做。

I know how to do it.

但我足够爱自己吗？

But do I love myself enough?

老实说，我也不明白这意味着什么。

And I don't know what that means if I'm being really frank.

有时候我也不明白这是什么意思。

I don't know what it means sometimes either.

那我换个方式问你吧。

So let me ask it to you differently.

从你看待世界的方式来说，你是否觉得如果你工作表现优异，带来技能、带来客户、推动公司发展等等，那么上级理应主动与你讨论升职事宜，而不是需要你去主动争取，这是显而易见的。

In the way you see the world, do you have the sense that if you do your work really well, if you bring skills, if you bring clients, if you further the growth of the company, etcetera, It is obvious that one way that that recognition should come to you is from the upper people discussing the promotion with you and not for you to have to go and ask for it.

按照正常逻辑，如果你工作出色，应该是他们主动来找

In the right order of things, if you do your job well, it's them who should be coming to

你。

you.

确实如此。

For sure.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

所以按照同样的世界观，如果他们没来，就意味着如果我表现真的出色，他们自然会来。

And therefore, if they don't come in that same worldview is the idea, if I was doing really great, they would come.

因此如果他们没来，可能我的表现并不如自己想象或他们所说的那么出色。

Therefore, if they don't come, maybe I'm not doing as great as maybe I think I do or as they say I do.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, for sure.

对我来说，这更像是基于功绩——如果我的工作出色且你认为我产生了影响，那么在晋升时你就不会忘记我。

It's like to me, it's more merit based if I'm doing great work and you think I'm making an impact, then you wouldn't forget about me when it came time for promotions.

因此，如果你不打算主动为自己争取，很容易看出你缺乏为自己辩护、陈述理由和争取更多的能力——如果你真正相信自己，你就会主动要求更多。

And therefore, if you are not gonna go and ask for yourself, it is easy to see that you are lacking something to plead for yourself, to plead your case, to make your case and and to ask for more, that if you truly believed in yourself, you would be asking for more.

而你的观点是，如果人们真正相信我，他们就会主动给我更多。

And your view is if people truly believed in me, they would be offering me more.

这是两种文化体系。

Those are two cultural systems.

这不仅仅是个人的，也不仅仅是你的心理问题，这是世界观的问题，是两种不同的社会组织方式。

This is not just personal, this is not just your own psychology, these are world views, those are two different ways of organizing social systems.

自我关爱的概念在巴基斯坦常见吗？

Is the concept of self love common in Pakistan?

不，绝对不常见。

No, absolutely not.

问题是，这种情况在新一代更全球化的群体中开始出现。

The thing is, like, it's starting to be with, like, the newer generation that's more global.

但是，如果我告诉我妈妈，我这么做是因为我爱自己，她...我成长在一个认为这个世界不是围绕'我'的家庭，而美国人非常以自我为中心。

But, like, if I went to my mom and I said, I'm doing this because I love myself, she I I grew up in a house where the whole mindset was this world is not about me, myself, and I, and Americans are very me, myself, and I.

我们不是那样的。

We are not like that.

我们是社区的贡献者。

We're contributors to the community.

我们考虑他人。

We think about others.

我们考虑家人。

We think about our family.

自私在我们家至少不被视为好事，而且在我父母反思他们育儿方式时也是如此。

Being selfish is not something that's perceived as being good in at least in our household and then also probably, like, the time that my parents reflect on in terms of their parenting, what they use to parent us.

对。

Right.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

但当然，有趣的是，个人主义被视为一种自私的表现，而非在无法依赖他人的社会结构中，人们为自给自足而培养的生存模式。

But of course, interestingly, individualism is seen as a form of selfishness rather than it is the way that people in a structure where you can't rely on others, where people have been raised for self reliance, this becomes their mode of survival.

它更以自我为中心。

It's more self centered.

这并不一定意味着自私。

It doesn't necessarily mean that it is selfish.

因此每种文化都会用自身标准来审视和定义其他文化。

So each culture looks at the other culture and defines it with its own terms.

如果你不主动争取晋升，说明你缺乏自信、自我价值感低，这是你自己的问题。

If you don't ask for a promotion, you don't feel confident, you lack self esteem, it's your problem.

而另一方面，如果人们考虑自身利益，从你父母或社区其他人的视角来看，这很快就会被定义为自私——因为每个人和每个群体都会通过自身文化滤镜来解读他人的行为。

And then on the other side, if people are thinking about themselves, then from the point of view, as you described of your parents or other people in your community, it becomes very quickly defined as selfish because every person sometimes and every community sometimes defines the behaviors of the others through their own lens and how they would have interpreted that behaviour according to their own cultural norms and values.

如今你生活在美国或附近地区，长久以来已学会在这两种语言和两套行为准则之间进行转译。

Now you live in The States or somewhere close to here, you have learned to translate between these two languages, between these two sets of norms for a long time.

首先，这是真的吗？

Is that true first of all?

是的。

Yeah.

你说得对。

You're straight on.

好的。

Okay.

你知道你母亲会说什么，但你也知道你说的话部分是你母亲会说的，部分可以说是你老板会说的。

You know what your mother would say, but you also know that what you say is in part what your mother would say and in part what your bosses would say for so to speak.

你的一部分非常注重他人的认可，服务于社区，不把自己放在首位。

A part of you that is very much oriented towards the recognition of others to serving to the community, to not putting yourself front and center.

然后还有另一部分的你有野心，想要成长，想要在事业上进步，确实想要那种认可，但又不想去争抢？

And then there's another part of you that has ambitions, that wants to grow, that wants to advance in your career, that does want that kind of recognition, but without having to go and push your elbows?

是的，你知道，我们的父母在学业上对我们要求很高，但从来不是为了金钱或认可。

Yeah, it's, you know, our parents pushed us a lot academically and it wasn't ever for money or for recognition.

这是为了在世界上产生影响。

It was to make impact in the world.

我不得不学会如何发声，因为我意识到这将使我在工作中承担更多责任，获得成功，从而完成我的使命——产生更大的影响。

I have had to learn how to speak up because I've realized that that's what's going to allow me to get more responsibility at work to succeed and then do what I came to do, which is make a greater impact.

所以这其实非常美好，因为你已经学会了发声。

So that is actually very beautiful because you have learned to speak up.

你学会了一种为集体成果而进行的个人实践。

You have learned an individual practice for a collective outcome.

是的。

Yeah.

这经常会适得其反。

It backfires often.

比如，你是对的。

Like, you're right.

我已经学会了如何在企业环境中工作，

I have learned how to work, like, in the corporate setting, and

这总是为了我们团队其他人的利益。

it's always for the good of the rest of our team.

但其他人并不遵循这种模式，所以在做决定或需要认可时，很容易就把我忘了，因为我常常觉得自己被利用了。

But everyone else isn't working in that paradigm, so it's so easy to forget me when it comes time for those decisions or when it comes time for recognition because, like, I often feel like I'm being used.

比如，人们会来找我，他们知道我不会拒绝任何事情。

Like, people will come to me, and they know I'm not gonna say no to something.

我会帮助他们做任何事，但这种关系不是双向的。

I'll I'll help them with anything, but it doesn't work both ways.

你是你们部门唯一的女性有色人种吗？

Are you the only woman of color on your unit?

你的团队有多样性吗？

Is there is there diversity on your team?

我认为我们的工作场所非常包容和多元化。

I think our our workplace is very inclusive and diverse.

我刚入职时，是团队里唯一的有色人种。

When I first started, I was the only person of color on my team.

现在情况已经多样化了。

And now it's a mix.

有些项目我是，有些项目我不是。

Some projects I am and other projects I'm not.

你是否觉得事情不顺利的原因与种族和肤色有关？

Do you have at all a sense that the reason that things don't come your way is because of issues of race and color?

还是你认为这个体系表明，在这家公司要想晋升，就必须主动争取？

Or is it because you think the system says this company, if you wanna move ahead, you need to go and ask for it.

他们没有提供这个。

They don't offer it.

是啊。

Yeah.

绝对是后者。

It's definitely the latter.

我觉得，我不认为这是种族问题，但这确实是一家自我推销绝对至关重要的公司，随着你在公司里的成长。

Like, I I don't think it's race but it is definitely a company where self promotion is absolutely critical as you continue to grow up the company.

好的。

Okay.

这是个非常重要的区别，因为接下来的问题就变成了：如何在践行这种做法的同时不产生价值观冲突？

So that's a very important distinction because then, you know, the question becomes, how can you do more of it without experiencing a value conflict?

如果我把自己放在中心位置，就会变成我不该成为的那种自私的人。

If I put myself in the center, I become the selfish person I'm not supposed to be.

我该如何以能真正扩大我所追求的影响力的方式，将自己置于中心位置？

How do I put myself in the center in a way that actually furthers the impact that I seek to have?

我刚才就在想，这样的对话会是什么样子？

And imagine, I was just thinking, you know, what would that conversation sound like?

比如你去和负责晋升谈判的人谈，基本上可以说：这对我来说是个非常关键的时刻。

You know, you go and you talk with whoever you need to negotiate the upgrade with and you basically say, this is a very interesting moment for me.

我非常清楚大家对我的工作很认可，这点我很明确，感觉很好。

I really know that there is a lot of appreciation for the work I do and I'm very clear on that and that feels very good.

在我的成长环境里，当人们表现出色时，表达认可的方式之一就是给予晋升。

Where I'm from, when people outperform, one of the ways that people show their appreciation is by offering them a promotion.

就像我们不会询问他人是否需要吃喝，而是直接将食物摆在他们面前，因为我们不希望任何人需要开口索取。

In the same way that we do not ask people if they want to drink something or eat something, we make sure that we put the food in front of them, because we do not want somebody to have to ask.

对我来说，主动提出要求是非常具有挑战性的。

It is very challenging for me to have to ask.

这并非我原生文化的习惯，而我知道您对多样性和包容性理念非常关注。

It is not the cultural practice from which I come and I know that you are very interested in the concept of diversity and inclusion.

此刻我们讨论的正是晋升中的多样性议题，以及不同文化对此的处理方式。

This is a moment of talking about diversity as it comes to promotions, how different cultures do this.

是啊。

Yeah.

说来奇怪，虽然我们在谈工作，但你说的这些对我个人生活同样适用。

You know, it's weird because I know we're talking about work, but, like, what you're saying to me, it applies so much to my personal life.

我觉得这正是我和伴侣之间最大的矛盾点——尽管他比我晚来北美多年，但我们都是在巴基斯坦出生的。

I think this is, like, a huge point of tension between my partner and I because even though he came to North America well after me, we were both born in Pakistan.

有时我觉得他比我更适应个人主义的生活方式，但我们经常就'我总是不等要求就主动做事'这个问题发生类似对话。

Sometimes I feel like he's more well adjusted to the individualistic lifestyle than I am, but we have similar conversations about how I feel like I do things without being asked.

然后我会觉得因为对方没有同样的付出，自己得到的爱不够多，而他经常会说，但你并没有要求我这么做。

And then I feel like I'm not loved enough because it's not reciprocated, and he often will be like, but you didn't ask me to do it.

他非常在意这一点，比如他会希望我能认可他做了某件事。

He's very good about like, I'd like for you to acknowledge that I did this.

我希望你能在我做了这些事后给予认可，而我并不主动要求。

I'd like for you to give credit where I did this, and I don't ask for that.

你知道，我们就这样来回拉扯，我说，但我不会主动为这些事情邀功。

And I you know, we have this back and forth where I'm like, but I don't ask for credit for things.

我做这些只是因为知道你喜欢。

I just do them because I know you like them.

这真是个典型的对话，往往深深植根于文化中，因为你知道，如果某些事是你应该做的，你最不需要的就是感激或认可，因为这是理所当然的。

That is such a classic conversation that is often very vested in culture because, you know, if it's expected from you to do certain things, the last thing you look for is appreciation or recognition because it's expected.

如果他说，当我做了某些事时我希望得到认可，而你说，我既没有要求，也不期待被认可。

If and he says, when I do certain things I want to be acknowledged for it and you say, neither do I ask, neither do I expect to be acknowledged.

是的。

Yes.

但我希望你能主动去做。

But I wish you would just do.

而他会说，只要你开口我就会做，不然我怎么知道呢？

And he says, I will do when you ask because how else am I supposed to know?

是的。

Yes.

就像这些对话，不仅在家里，在工作中也会出现类似情况。比如在每日站会上，我的队友会说‘我今天在起草给某某的邮件’

Like these conversations, they're not just at home, but at work, it will be something like, you know, my teammate during daily stand up, she'll be like, I'm drafting an email today to send out to so and so.

而我从来不会说‘这就是占用我时间的事情’

And I wouldn't ever come and say that's what's taking up my time.

我只会简单地说‘邮件已经发好了’

I would just come and say, I've sent the email already.

本期节目由Shopify赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Shopify.

当你开始创业时，找到能简化一切的工具将彻底改变游戏规则。

When you're starting your own business, finding the right tool that simplifies everything can be a game changer.

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For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify.

Shopify是全球数百万企业背后的电商平台，支撑着美国10%的在线交易，从美泰、Gymshark等家喻户晓的品牌到刚起步的新锐品牌。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in The United States, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started.

凭借数百款即用型模板，Shopify能帮你打造与品牌风格匹配的精美网店。

With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style.

Shopify表示其平台内置了实用的AI工具，可撰写产品描述、页面标题，甚至能优化产品图片。

And Shopify says their platform is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography.

事实上，我们自己也用Shopify在官网上售卖卡片游戏《Where Should We Begin?》。

In fact, we use Shopify ourselves to sell our card game, Where Should We Begin?

这是一款讲述故事的游戏。

A Game of Stories on our websites.

通过Shopify将你的宏大商业构想变为现实。

Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your site.

立即注册享受每月1美元试用优惠，今天就开始销售吧：shopify.com/esther。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/esther.

访问 shopify.com/esther。

Go to shopify.com/esther.

网址是 shopify.com/essterre。

That's shopify.com/essterre.

《Where Should We Begin》由 Babbel 赞助播出。

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Babbel.

想学一门新语言，却苦于无法突破基础阶段？

So you want to learn a language, but you're struggling to move beyond the basics?

何不试试 Babbel？

Why not try Babbel?

Babbel 是一款语言学习工具，专注于小步前进、显著收获，让你真切感受到进步。

Babbel is the language learning tool that's all about small steps, big wins, and progress you can actually feel.

每天只需十分钟，就能开始看到实际成效。

Just ten minutes a day is enough to start seeing real results.

所以我一直在坚持上葡萄牙语课程。

So I've continued to do my Portuguese lessons.

这门语言有种难以言喻的美感，它富有表现力，旋律优美，每种语言都有一些被它完美捕捉的特定词汇。

Something about that language that is just so beautiful, it's expressive, it's melodic, and every language has certain words that it has just captured perfectly.

现在为我们的听众提供一项特别限时优惠。

Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners.

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Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription at babbel.com/esther.

在babbel.com/esther享受高达60%的折扣。

Get up to 60% off at babbel.com/esther.

拼写为babbel.com/esther。

Spelled babbel.com/esther.

Babbel.com/esther。

Babbel.com/esther.

可能适用相关条款和限制。

Rules and restrictions may apply.

你是否觉得能准确识别这段对话的精华与微妙之处，就像此刻你我正在进行的对话这样？

Do you feel you would be comfortable identifying the riches of this conversation, the nuances of this conversation exactly the way that you and I are having it right now?

这真是个有趣的差异。

That is so an interesting difference here.

在这里，谈论一封邮件花了你两天时间，或者你特意抽空完成这件事，是完全能被接受的。

It is totally accepted for you to talk about the hardships of the email that takes two days or or the fact that you've really put time aside to do this.

有趣的是，很多在这里长大的人——因为有很多像你这样的人——他们甚至没有文化伪装来解释，但他们的内心体验和你一样。

And it is so interesting how easily people who grow up here sometimes because there are many people who are like you and they don't even have the cultural camouflage to really explain it, but they experience their internal life like you.

但很多时候，人们确实被鼓励发声，说出自己的成就，强调付出的努力，这是一种微妙或不那么微妙的寻求认可的方式。

But many times it's true people are encouraged to speak up, to say what they've done, to highlight the efforts that it takes and it is a kind of a subtle invitation or not so subtle invitation for recognition.

而在你谦逊的一面，你会说：我不喜欢小题大做。

And on the side of your humility, you say, I don't make a big fuss.

我只是过来告诉事情完成了。

I just come and say it's done.

但内心深处，你其实也期待得到认可。

But internally, you also expect the recognition, you actually do.

但你不愿主动索要，就像你不愿主动要一杯茶那样。

But you don't want to have to ask for it the same way that you don't want to have to ask for the cup of tea.

如果将这段对话公开，将会非常有趣地揭示职场和婚姻中多层次的沟通模式，并对此有所启发。

And if you made that conversation public, it would be a very interesting opening up of many layers of communication that exist in your workplace and in your marriage shed a light onto this.

这太有意思了。

This is so interesting.

这不是我和你之间的问题。

This is not me and you.

这是两种不同的文化。

These are two different cultures.

但有趣的是，两种文化中都存在。

But interestingly, in both cultures, there is an expectation of recognition.

只不过在一种文化里，你可以大张旗鼓地表现自己值得认可，而在另一种文化里，你的行动应该不言自明。

It's just that in one you're allowed to make a big deal to show that you deserve it, And in the other, your actions should speak for themselves.

大家都学会通过主动给予认可来维持和谐，而不需要对方开口索取。

And everybody learns to maintain harmony by giving the recognition without the other person having to ask for it.

这被认为是一种默契。

It's considered a form of attunement.

你知道这是你应该做的。

You know that that's what you're supposed to do.

你知道你应该主动问'要我帮你拿包吗'，而不是等对方开口说'你能帮我吗'。

You know that you're supposed to ask, shall I carry your bags and not wait for the other person to say, can you help me?

天啊。

Oh my god.

没错。

Yes.

这确实发生在婚礼后一周。

This actually happened the week after the wedding.

我哥哥对我丈夫发火，因为他没帮我拿包，让我自己拎着行李箱。

My brother got mad at my husband because he didn't pick up my bags and he was letting me carry my suitcase in.

我哥哥当时说：'你就真打算让她自己拿？'

And my brother was like, are you seriously just gonna let her do that?

她永远不会主动开口求助的。

Like, she's never gonna ask for help.

这造成了很大的紧张，因为你知道，这只是两种不同的世界观。

And it created so much tension because it's, you know, it's just two different ways of looking at the world.

但你丈夫知道规矩。

But your husband knows the code.

对他来说这规矩并不陌生。

It's not like it's a foreign code to him.

对吧？

Right?

我不认为他的成长环境和我们一样。

I don't think that it is that he was raised the same way.

这也部分涉及性别因素。

It's also partially a gender thing.

你可以把'部分'这个词去掉，不过继续说吧。

You can lift the word partially out of it, but go ahead.

这就是个性别问题。

It is it is a gender thing.

我认为在南亚地区，社会对女性行为和男性行为的期望是不同的。

I think in South Asia, there's a different expectation of how women behave in society and how men behave in society.

通过整个婚姻过程，我学到的一件事是：在南亚，我们花了多少精力确保女性知道该做什么、如何做、如何影响他人，甚至在她们思考之前就明白自己行为的后果。

One of the things I've learned through this whole marriage process is how much effort we in South Asia focus on making sure that women know what to do, how to do it, how it affects everybody else, what the consequences of their actions are even before they think it.

而男性则可以相对随意地生活，犯错也没关系。

Whereas men kind of haphazardly can go through life and make mistakes and it's okay.

你丈夫在兄弟姐妹中排行第几？

What is the child order of your husband?

他是中间的孩子。

He's a middle child.

好的。

Okay.

那么，他对你兄弟有什么反应？

Well, how did he respond to your brother?

他性格确实比较内向，所以什么都没说，但他对我很生气，因为他觉得自己在为没有意图做的事情背锅。

He's definitely on the quieter side, so he didn't say anything, but he was very upset at me that, like, he felt like he was being blamed for something that he didn't have the intention to do.

嗯

Mhmm.

你觉得他是介意帮你拿行李，还是心里想着'需要帮忙你会开口'？

Do you think he minded to carry your luggage or that he just in his mind it was if you need help you'll ask?

通过这些对话我明白是后者，但我的本能反应是他根本不在乎

I mean having had these conversations I know it's the latter but my knee jerk reaction is that he didn't care.

对

Right.

所以这里你需要学会从他的视角来解读他的行为

So this is where you will need to learn a little bit more to interpret his behavior from his vantage point.

否则每次他不帮忙、不道谢、不关注你时，你都会用同样的思维模式去确认

Otherwise, you're going to continuously confirm every time he doesn't help you, every time he doesn't thank you, every time he doesn't acknowledge you, it will continuously be interpreted through the same lens.

最终你会感到极度缺爱——这也是为什么我猜你开始说如果早知道这些可能不会嫁给他

And you're going to end up feeling very unloved, which is part of why I'm imagining you began to say that you may not have married him had you known all of this.

不会的

No.

这些事我早就知道了。

I already knew these things.

我想我在婚礼前不知道的是，我清楚自己该做什么、父母和家庭的期望，以及从社会角度该如何行事。

I think what I didn't know is leading up to the wedding, was a lot of I knew what is expected of me and what my parents expect and what our family expects and how to do that from a societal point of view.

而他态度很明确：'我不想做这些，因为我不想要这些。'

And he's very much like, well, I don't want to do this because I don't want this.

就这样。

And that's it.

句号。

Period.

这最终导致我们之间产生了许多矛盾。

It ended up leading to a lot of conflicts between us.

你知道，我解决这个矛盾和持续压力的一个办法是建议他去度一周假。

One of my, you know, solutions to this conflict and this constant stress we were both under was to tell him that he should go take a vacation for a week.

婚礼后我才知道，他在那次假期中开始和别人交往，虽然可能有些人觉得这不算出轨。

I learned after the wedding that he started talking to someone else on that vacation, and it wasn't anything, I guess, maybe other people would call it, like, not cheating.

但对我来说，这是巨大的打击，因为归根结底，性质是一样的。

But to me, it was a huge blow because at the end of the day, it was the same thing.

你怎么能没想过这对我伤害有多大？

How could you not have thought about how much this would hurt me?

你怎么能不在乎？

How did you not care?

而他的回应是，那一刻他除了自己根本没考虑别人。

And his response was that in that moment, he wasn't thinking about anyone else but himself.

我...我经历了更艰难的时期，因为女孩总是承受更多，尤其是在南亚婚礼中。

And I I I went through a even harder time because it's it's always harder for the girl, especially in South Asian weddings.

说实话，我想过逃跑，甚至...我连自己喜欢的工作都无法继续。

And I thought about like, if I'm being honest, I thought about running away and kind of just I wasn't able to do work that I enjoy.

我无法放松享受生活，因为总为婚礼筹备的事感到愧疚。

I wasn't able to, like, just relax and enjoy that because I constantly felt guilty about having to do something in relation to wedding prep.

所以我想过逃离，为自己做点什么，但最终没做，因为我满脑子都是他和我家人会有多失望。

So I thought about running away and doing something for myself, but I didn't because all I could think about how disappointed he or my family or his family would be.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你和他之间发生的事情，你们俩后来有没有尝试解决一些？

And have you and him been able to work through some of what had happened between him and you?

你知道，整件事最困难的部分是，我在婚后几天才发现真相，而我们还得和家人共度整整一周。

You know, the hardest part about all of this is I found out maybe a few days after we got married and we still had a solid week left with our family.

所以我只能强忍情绪，假装我们是幸福的新婚夫妇。

So I had to suck it up and make sure we were a happy married couple.

等我回来后，我发现自己很难思考或感受任何事，因为我花了太多时间麻痹自己。

And when I came back, it was very hard for me to think about anything or feel anything because I had spent so much time just numbing it.

虽然我平时很了解自己的情绪，但一旦封闭了情感，要重新连接就会变得异常困难。

I am, you know, very in tune with my emotions, but I can also it it becomes really hard to reconnect with them if I've shut them off.

这不只是你封闭了情感，而是你把它们搁置一旁，因为你的情绪不能比社会习俗、维护社交和谐以及与所有家人的关系更重要。

Well, it's not that you shut them off only, it's that you put them aside because your emotions are not to be more important than the social convention and the maintaining of the social harmony and the relationships with all the families.

这就是个人必须退居集体和社区之后的地方。

So that is where the individual has to step back behind the collective and the community.

是啊。

Yeah.

《我们该从何开始？》节目由Quo赞助播出

Support for Where Should We Begin?

错过客户的电话或短信不仅带来不便

Comes from Quo.

更可能真正损害您的业务

Missing a customer call or text isn't just an inconvenience.

Quo是一款确保您永不错过与客户联系机会的商业电话系统

It can really hurt your business.

该系统以3000多条G2用户评价荣获客户满意度首选

Is a business phone system that makes sure you never miss an opportunity to connect with your customers.

它被评选为超过3000条G2评论中客户满意度的首选

It's rated the top choice for customer satisfaction with over 3,000 reviews on G2.

Quo可以直接通过您手机或电脑上的应用程序运行，您的整个团队可以共享一个号码，像共享收件箱一样协作处理电话和短信。

Quo works right from an app on your phone or computer, and your whole team can share one number and collaborate on calls and texts like a shared inbox.

如果您无法接听电话，Quo的人工智能助手可以代劳。

And if you can't answer the phone, Quo's AI agent can.

这就是为什么从独立经营者到成长中的团队，已有超过90,000家企业正在使用Quo。

That's why over 90,000 businesses, from solo operators to growing teams, are already using Quo.

访问quo.com/begin即可免费试用。

Try it for free when you go to quo.com/begin.

网址是quo.com/begin。

That's quo.com/begin.

您甚至可以保留现有号码。

You can even keep your existing number.

Quo，不错过任何来电，不错过任何客户。

Quo, no missed calls, no missed customers.

《我们该从何开始？》由Quo赞助播出

Support for Where Should We Begin?

由Monarch赞助播出

Comes from Monarch.

我们正处于节日季的高峰期

We're in the thick of the holiday season.

可以理解你可能会忽略自己的消费，直到新年才面对自己选择带来的现实

It's understandable that you might lose track of your spending only to be confronted with the reality of your choices in the New Year.

何不通过Monarch来掌控你的财务状况呢？

Why not take charge of your finances with Monarch?

获取清晰的数据可视化图表、智能的支出分类，以及对你资金的真正掌控。

Get clear data visuals, smart categorization of your spending, and real control over your money.

如果你想在这个假期控制好你的财务状况，你需要使用Monarch。

If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch.

被《华尔街日报》评为2025年最佳预算应用，Monarch是一款全能个人理财工具，将你的整个财务生活整合到笔记本电脑或手机上的一个简洁界面中。

Rated Wall Street Journal's best budgeting app of 2025, Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or your phone.

现在，仅对我们的听众，Monarch提供首年五折优惠。

And right now, just for our listeners, Monarch is offering 50% off your first year.

别让财务机会从指缝中溜走。

Don't let financial opportunities slip through the cracks.

在浏览器输入beginmonarch.com优惠码，即可享受首年半价优惠。

Use code beginmonarch.com in your browser for half of your first year.

在monarch.com使用优惠码begin，首年立享5折。

That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code begin.

你完全可以通过丈夫学会表达自我。

You do have the opportunity through your husband to learn to speak up.

正如他也能通过你学会更敏锐地感知身边人的需求和感受，而不是只会说'这样对我最合适'。

As much as he has the opportunity through you to learn to become much more attuned to the needs and the feelings of the person next to him and not just to say, this is what works for me.

你为什么不适应呢？

Why don't you adapt?

你要学会像我这样。

You know, you learn to be like me.

不，如果他选择了你——一个如此善于为他人着想的人，一个能体贴入微满足他所有需求的人，那么目标就不该只是让你继续单向付出，而是让他也变得更体贴、更懂得关注你的感受。

No, if he chose you and he chose someone who is so adept at thinking about others, that you are adept at thinking about him, then the goal is not just for you to continue to think about him and to presume every need he may have ahead of himself, but also for him to become more sensitive and attuned and attentive to you.

你要利用这个机会说，我将通过他学会更直言不讳、更勇于表达，因为这最终对我自己也有益处——不是功利意义上的益处，而是如果我选择了一个善于为自己考虑的人，那是因为有时我也需要学习一点这种特质。

And for you to use the opportunity to say, I'm going to learn through him to be a little bit more outspoken, to be a little bit more vocal because it ultimately will serve me a little bit as well and not in the instrumental sense of serving, but if I chose someone who's good at thinking about himself it's because sometimes I could learn a little bit of that.

就像你们各自选择了一个特质能弥补自身弱点的人。

It's like each of you chose someone whose proclivities match your vulnerabilities.

同样的情况也适用于职场，但范围更广。你可以运用对不同文化体系的了解向同事阐释——这不仅适用于你作为巴基斯坦人的经历，也可能适用于团队中其他更安静、等待被注意而非主动站到前台的成员，而你将能很好地诠释这种动态。

And the same thing will apply at work, but in a more broader sense, you know, you're going to use your knowledge of a different cultural system to describe that to the people and that it applies not just to you because you are from Pakistan, but it applies to probably other people on the team who are quieter, who are waiting for others to notice them rather than to push themselves on the front stage, and that you will be a good interpreter of that dynamic.

所以这超越了个人层面，你可以准确解释这种机制。

So it goes beyond you and you can explain exactly that.

你知道吗，这非常有趣。

You know, it's very interesting.

这家公司采用单一模式运作。

This company works on one model.

但我想让你知道，其实还有另一种处理方式，能让这里很多人感到更受认可、更受重视，从而更投入工作，甚至可能产出更多成果。

But I'd like for you to know there's another way to go about this that would actually make quite a lot of people here feel much more acknowledged, much more appreciated, and therefore much more engaged and therefore probably even more producing.

所以我理解你的意思是，自爱意味着敢于发声，并在工作和个人生活中都实践这种表达。

So I guess what I'm hearing from you is, you know, self love translates to having a voice and practicing using it both at work and in my personal life.

是的。

Yes.

但你可以用‘自爱’这个词。

But you may use the word self love.

它是某种形式。

I it's a certain form.

我认为，如果你明白当你发声时，不仅是为了自己，你就会少一些顾虑，认为表达就是自私。你不会觉得作为女性就必须保持顺从、卑微和屈服，不应该要求太多，应该等待轮到你，应该考虑你的需求如何影响他人等等这些规训。

I think that if you know that when you speak up, you're not just doing it for you only, you will have less of a concern that to be vocal is to be selfish And that you have to stay subdued, subservient, and subjugated in your role as a woman, and that you should not ask for too much, and that you should wait for your turn, and that you should think about how your needs affect everybody else and all of that code.

如果我只用美式语境中的‘自爱’概念和你谈，你在实践时会感到冲突，因为你会觉得这与你从小接受的教育背道而驰。

If I just talk to you about self love in the American sense of the word, you're gonna experience a conflict in doing it because you will feel like you're doing everything against the thing that you were brought up to be.

但你的家庭确实说过：受教育、有学识、怀抱雄心、追求成功——这些都关乎影响力。

But the one thing they did say at your house is being educated, being learned, being very ambitious, being very successful is about impact.

只要你不把这看作仅仅对个人有益，你就能更轻松地体验你所谓的‘自爱’。

And as long as you don't just see this as benefiting you, you will have a much easier time to experience what you call self love.

因为这种对自我的爱最终惠及的是整个社群，而不仅是你个人。

Because the love of the self benefits the community rather than just yourself.

是的，我之前没这么想过。

Yeah, I didn't see it that way.

现在你对此有什么感受？

How does it land on you now?

我是说，这确实更难，但我觉得这是个提醒自己的小信物，对吧？

I mean, it's definitely harder, but I think this is the little trinket to remind myself, right?

因为我不喜欢——对我来说，为他人发声、争取对项目或团队有利的事情很容易。

Because I don't like it's very easy for me to stand up for someone else to ask for things I know that are going to be good for the rest of the project or are gonna be good for the team.

但如果只关乎我自己，我就会一直等待，等着别人来问我

But if it's just solely about me, then I I will wait, like, keep waiting to be asked about

告诉我，你的团队里有人能像你为他们做的那样为你付出吗？

Tell me something, do you have people on your team who can do for you what you do for them?

我正在努力培养这样的人。

I'm trying to build those.

我正在尝试给人们创造这样的机会。

I'm trying to give people the opportunity to do that.