进退两难

你将听到的是一通经典的以斯帖来电，这是一次远程录制的干预电话，通话双方身处世界某处。

What you are about to hear is a classic Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

嗨，以斯帖。

Hi, Esther.

我今天有个关于在友谊中设定界限的问题，想知道设定这些界限是否可能意味着友谊的终结。

I just have a question for you today about setting boundaries and friendships and if setting those boundaries might mean the end of a friendship.

我有两个朋友在谈恋爱，而且在一起很久了，从我认识他们起就是一对。

So two friends of mine are in a relationship and have been for a long time, as long as I've known them.

他们拥有我称之为功能失调的关系，好的时候如胶似漆。

And they have what I would call a dysfunctional relationship and that when it's good, it's great.

但也会经历这些非常艰难的低谷期。

They go through these really difficult lows.

由于我和他们俩都是朋友，我经常能听到双方各自的说辞。

And because I am friends with both of them, I end up getting both sides of the story quite often.

这种情况真的让人精疲力竭。

And it can be incredibly draining.

我想设定一些界限，明确表示：听着，我不是你们的心理治疗师。

And I want to set in place boundaries that say, listen, I'm not your therapist.

我不是你们的关系顾问。

I'm not your relationship counselor.

我不想讨论这些事情。

I don't want to talk about those things.

但我也并不想失去我们友谊中的亲密感。

But I also don't want to lose the intimacy of our friendship.

我觉得这似乎是个非此即彼的局面。

It feels like it's an either or kind of a situation, I think.

情况就是这样。

So that is that.

谢谢你的帮助。

Thank you for your help.

本节目由Nature's Sunshine全新推出的海洋焕彩胶原蛋白赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Nature's Sunshine all new Marine Glow Collagen.

又到了一年中夏日暑气渐消的时节

It's that time of year when the summer heat is fading.

空气开始变得清爽起来

The air is getting crisper.

树叶渐渐转红

The leaves are turning red.

所有东西都开始带上肉桂和南瓜的味道

Everything starts tasting like cinnamon and pumpkins.

随着日落时间提前，我们接触阳光的时间减少，面对蓝光的时间增多。

As the sun sets earlier, we spend less time with beams of sunshine and more time with the glow of blue light.

因此，大自然阳光新海洋焕采系列含有叶黄素等抗氧化剂，能有效阻隔蓝光，减少蓝光对皮肤和眼睛健康的损害。

That's why Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow contains the blue light blocking power of lutein and other antioxidants to combat the damage to skin and eye health from blue light exposure.

体验大自然阳光新海洋焕采系列带来的焕彩肌肤和经科学验证的护眼功效——这是唯一经临床验证能同时支持眼部和皮肤健康、抵御蓝光的胶原蛋白产品。

Experience more radiant skin and proven eye protection with Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow, the only collagen product clinically proven to support eye and skin health and defend against blue light.

立即登录naturesunshine.com，尝试大自然阳光新海洋焕采系列。

Try Nature's Sunshine New Marine Glow now at naturesunshine.com.

眼下正是AI淘金热，这意味着每个开发应用、平台、软件或任何智能小工具的人都在尝试

Right now is the AI Gold Rush, and that means everybody who builds an app, a platform, a piece of software, a gizmo that's gonna be anything, everybody is trying

将AI融入所有领域。

to put AI everywhere.

在接下来两周的Vergecast系列节目中，我们将深入探讨这一现象。

And for two weeks in a series on the Vergecast, we are talking through what that looks like.

我们将采访开发者，了解他们正在构建什么、如何构建，以及AI是否真的适用于所有场景，还是会在过程中毁掉一切。

We're talking to developers about what they're building and how they're building it, and whether AI actually does make sense everywhere or is just gonna ruin everything in the process.

这就是Vergecast播客平台上的AI迷你系列专题，各大播客平台均可收听。

That's the AI miniseries on the vergecast wherever you get podcasts.

本系列节目由MongoDB赞助播出。

This series is presented by MongoDB.

假设你有两位挚友正在谈恋爱。

So you have two dear friends who are in a relationship together.

没错。

Yes.

这段感情经历了各种危机。

That relationship goes through all kinds of crisis.

他们都来找你倾诉，都希望你能站在他们这边或支持他们。

They both come to you, they confide in you, they both want you to see their side or to ally with them.

你发现自己被夹在中间左右为难，陷入忠诚的冲突中。你既想告诉他们‘我不能被这样夹在中间，因为我珍惜你们俩，不想成为你们矛盾的裁判’，又希望能找到一种方式倾听他们各自的想法，但不受其过度影响。

You find yourself triangulated and in a bind and with a conflict around loyalty, and you would like either to be able to tell them, I cannot be thrown in the middle like this because I cherish you both and I will not be the arbiter of your food, or you would like to find a way to hear what they each have to say, but not let it get to you in the way that it does.

有点像A方案，也有点像B方案。

A little bit from column a and a little bit from column b.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这样。

That would be it.

因为我和他们俩的关系确实都非常亲密。

It because it is the thing of I do have very strong relationships with both of them.

我确实想成为他们的依靠，希望他们在遇到困难时都能来找我，但我觉得这次情况就是这样。

And I do want to be a comfort to them and I want to be, you know, if they're experiencing difficulty that they can both come to me, but I think it is the case of it.

我是个共情能力很强的人

I'm very empathetic person.

所以每次结束后我都感受特别强烈，是的

So I do come away from it feeling this very strongly, I Yeah.

对

Right.

这种情绪是如何影响你的？

What enters you and how does it enter you?

感到沮丧又不知所措

Frustration and not knowing what to do.

某种程度上是因为有时我几乎想掐住他们尖叫，因为双方都在向我施压

And it's kind of because sometimes I almost want to like throttle them and scream at them because I'm getting it from both sides.

我清楚他们各自想要什么，但如果我真要转述另一方对我说的话，我就成了个传声筒——我心想你们为什么不直接对话而非要通过我？

So I kind of know what each one of them wants, But then if I'm to really impart what the other one has said to me, then I'm just becoming this, like, go between that I'm like, why don't you have this conversation amongst yourselves and not with me?

这是你第一次遇到这种情况吗？

Is this a first for you?

这是你第一次陷入这样的三角关系吗？

First time you find yourself in such a triangle?

也不完全是。

Not really.

跟我说说。

Tell me.

其实在我大多数的朋友圈里，无论是成长过程中还是最近，我往往都扮演着知心人的角色。

So I have kind of always in most of my friend groups, kind of growing up and recently as well, I tend to be kind of like the confidant role.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以如果有人正经历艰难时期，尤其是当他们的问题也涉及我认识的其他人时，他们常常会来找我，因为他们觉得第一能获得倾听，第二我不会把这些透露给另一方。

So if someone is experiencing quite a difficult time, very often, if it is with someone else that I know as well, they do feel like that they can come to me because they feel that one, they'll be listened to and that two, it won't be divulged to the other party or to the other side.

告诉我，你是在三角关系中长大的吗？

Tell me, did you grow up with triangles?

你对这种人际关系中的强烈几何学熟悉吗？

Are you familiar with this intense geometry of relationships?

不算很多。

Not hugely.

我的父母至今仍保持婚姻关系，我想今年是他们结婚三十五周年纪念。

My parents are both still married and they have been for, I think it's their thirty fifth wedding anniversary this year.

所以可以说，在这方面并没有太多不和谐的情况。

So it wouldn't have been a huge amount of, let's say, discord there in that way.

某种程度上，我可能一直充当着他们之间的桥梁，有些事情我可以和母亲聊但不会和父亲聊，反之亦然。

What I kind of always would have been maybe a bit of a go between for them in some ways as well and that there was certain things I could talk with with my mother that I wouldn't necessarily talk with my father and kind of vice versa.

所以确实存在这种私人关系模式。

So there would have been those kind of like personal relationships.

意思是他们各自会找你倾诉某些无法直接与对方沟通的事情？

Meaning that they each come to you to talk with you about certain things that they cannot talk with each other.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

这可不是你刚才说的原话，明白吗？

That's not what you said, you know?

好吧。

Okay.

你知道自己刚才说了什么吗？

Do you know what you said?

不知道。

No.

不太清楚，我想。

Not really, I suppose.

就是那些我没法跟他们双方谈的事，所以我分别找他们单独聊。

It's the things that I cannot talk with them about, and so I talk with each one separately.

但实际上，我理解你的意思是他们各自都有无法向对方倾诉的事，所以你早早就被征召成为那个倾听者、共鸣者、不评判的人、保密者，可以说是那个值得信赖的知己。

But in fact, what I understood you meant is that they each have their share of things that they can't tell each other, and so you have been recruited long time ago to be the sounding board, the ear, the empathic one, the nonjudgmental one, the confidential one, the confidant, so to speak, the one that you can trust.

你一直充当着缓解他们之间紧张关系的角色，填补他们无法直接沟通的空白。

And you have been the alleviator of the tensions and the places that they can't go with each other.

所以你长期担任谈判者、调解人、协调者、和平使者、中间人和冲突解决专家的角色。

So you have long standing resume of being a negotiator, a mediator, a facilitator, a peacemaker, a go between, a conflict resolution person.

你的朋友们一定很幸运。

Your friends must be really lucky.

我得为下一份工作申请更新简历了。

I'll have to update my resume for the next job application.

确实如此。

I do.

是的。

Yes.

我一直觉得，我们都有份非正式简历，我肯定会把这点写进你的非正式简历里。

I always I would, you know, I always think we have an unofficial resume, and I would definitely include that on your unofficial resume.

这是一项你能带到任何场合的非凡技能。

This is a tremendous skill that you can bring to all environments.

但你告诉我的是，在这个情况下，这让你感到痛苦。

But what you're telling me is that in this instance, it pains you.

也许是因为你无法解决它或改善现状。

And maybe because you're not able to solve it or to make it better.

所以它一直萦绕在你心头。

And so it stays with you.

你目睹他们的痛苦、伤害和愤怒，希望他们能采取行动，但双方都按兵不动，因为都在等待对方先行动。

And you see their pain and their hurt and their anger, and you wish that they could just do something, but neither of them is doing anything because they each want the other person to do something.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

非常明显。

Very much.

你有向他们表达过这些感受吗？

And have you said any of that to them?

他们知道这对你来说有多艰难吗？

Do they know how challenging this is for you?

他们知道一部分。

They do partially.

通常的模式是，制定了一个行动计划，但在执行当天，他们要么吵架了，要么关系紧张，于是取消或退出，这多少会影响事情。

So what tends to be the pattern is that like a plan is made to do something and on the day that the plan comes up, they have had a fight or, tensions are high, so they cancel or they back out and it kind of affects things.

所以上次发生这种情况时，我正在和其中一人谈话。

So I was talking to one of them on the day that this happened the last time.

我大致说了：你们要知道，因为这种情况，我现在不太想和你们一起制定计划了。

And I kind of said, just so you know, I'm at a point with, I want to make plans with you both less together because of this.

某种程度上，我不能再以这种方式参与其中了。

And I kind of can't be part of it anymore in that way.

然后我从双方都收到了这类信息。

And I got these kinds of messages from both.

他们几乎像是在小心翼翼地试探，想要回来打招呼说：嗨，你好吗？

They're almost like tiptoeing to like, come back and be like, hi, how are you?

某种程度上，他们似乎在承认自己做错了，但我想并没有真正解决问题。

In that way, if they were acknowledging they had done wrong, but not necessarily addressing it, I suppose.

你自己也有知心朋友吗？

And you have a confidant of your own?

有的。

I do.

我和伴侣已经在一起七年了。

I have a long term partner of seven years.

好的。

Okay.

你会向伴侣倾诉这些事吗？

And you confide about that to your partner?

会。

Yes.

嗯。

Yeah.

你的伴侣是否也深陷在这种关系不和的困扰中呢？

And is your partner involved in the rapture of relational discord as well?

不。

No.

他完全置身事外。

He's firmly outside of us.

因为他已经见识过这对我可能产生的影响。

It's because he has seen the effect that it can have on me.

所以他是个很好的界限设定者？

So he's good boundary?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

界限非常明确。

Very good boundaries.

他为你设定了界限吗？

And he provides a boundary for you?

他有时能帮你克制住冲动？

He's able sometimes to kind of hold you back from plunging in?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

他是这样的。

He is.

好的。

Okay.

你让他知道这对你有多大的帮助了吗？

And you let him know how useful and helpful that is to you?

是的。

Yes.

我确实这么做了。

I do.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

那么是什么冲动让你难以不去接手这件事？

So what is the urge that makes it hard for you to not take it on?

因为它会刺痛你。

Because it penetrates your skin.

所以当这两个人互相争执时，有什么东西在吸引着你。

So there's something that draws you in in the way that these two people are having it out with each other.

而这与你有关。

And that is about you.

这和他们无关。

That is not about them.

你的使命是什么？

What's your mission?

是什么驱使着你？这种驱动力可能是无意识的。

What drives you that may or may not be conscious for that matter?

我认为在这种情境下，驱使我的是当一切顺利时，那种美好感受——他们充满激情，我想。

I think what drives me in this context with them is that when the times are good, they're so good because they like, they're passionate people, I guess.

所以

So

你是在谈论他们。

You're talking about them.

我问的是你，我明白了。

I'm asking you a I get it.

他们是天堂与地狱。

They're heaven and hell.

他们起伏不定。

They go up and down.

你知道，他们从极乐到痛苦来回切换。

They go from, you know, from bliss to to distress.

但你却深受其影响。

But you are affected by that.

你的反应就像这事发生在你身上一样。

You respond to it as if it's happening to you.

边界问题的症结在于：发生在他们身上的事也会发生在你身上。

That's the issue of the boundary is that what's happening to them happens to you.

你甚至无法抗拒被卷入其中。

You can't even resist going in.

你已经深陷其中。

You're in.

这是本能的反应。

It's visceral.

我想我是渴望被需要的。

I think I want to be kept.

我发现过去我之所以经常扮演知己角色，是因为这让我成为他人生命中不可或缺的一部分。

And I find I think why I have occupied this confidant role so often in my past has been because it makes me integral to someone.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们依赖我，然后我就感到自己很重要。

So they turn to me, and then I feel important.

现在我感到自己很有用。

Now I feel useful.

而且

And

而且我感到被需要。

And I feel needed.

如果你需要我，我又很有用、很重要，那么你就不会离开我。

And if you need me and I'm useful and I'm important, then you don't leave me.

没错。

Yeah.

正是这样。

Exactly.

因为在乐于助人和参与其中的需求之下，隐藏着一个更强烈的需求——确保自己不会被抛弃。

Because underneath the need to be helpful and to be involved, there is a bigger need that is to make sure that I don't get abandoned.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

就是这样。

That that is it.

而且这有点难以...

And that's kind of difficult to

先花点时间消化一下。

Just take it in for a sec.

这种感受很复杂，因为我不明白这种害怕被抛弃的情绪从何而来。

It's it's a difficult feeling because I don't know where that element of not wanting to be abandoned comes from.

因为我觉得自己人生中并没有真正被抛弃的经历。

Because I feel like I haven't been significantly abandoned in my life, let's say.

不，你做不到。

No, you can't.

你让自己变得太不可或缺了。

You made yourself too indispensable.

这是个不错的生存策略。

It was a good survival mechanism.

我们需要短暂休息一下，请继续关注，看看接下来会如何发展。

We have take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

如果你是初次收听或有一阵子没来，欢迎来到我的办公室。

If you are new here or haven't been here in a bit, welcome to my office.

整个七月期间，我提供苹果播客年度和月度订阅的20%折扣。

For the whole month of July, I am offering you 20% off for the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts.

通过订阅我在苹果播客的办公室时间，你将获得这些节目的无广告版本。

By joining my office hour subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad free version of these episodes.

此外，你还能访问我的苹果频道。

Plus, you will have access to my Apple channel.

这包括播客最早期的季数内容，以及一个临床对话库，收录了与同事、教练和其他治疗师的交流。

That includes the earliest seasons of the podcast, plus a clinical library of conversations with colleagues, coaches, and other therapists as well.

我们还提供对夫妻的后续访谈，如果你对他们的故事感兴趣并充满好奇的话。

We offer follow ups with couples as well if knowing more about their stories is something that interests you and that you're curious about.

点击《我们该从何开始？》节目页面的订阅按钮，加入我的办公时间。

Join my office hours by clicking the subscribe button on the Where Should We Begin?

节目页面。

Show page.

到时候见，谢谢大家。

See you there and thank you.

本节目由以下赞助商支持：经营企业已经够难了，何必再用十几个互不兼容的应用让事情变得更复杂呢？

Support for this show comes from Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

隆重介绍Odoo。

Introducing Odoo.

这是您唯一需要的商业软件。

It's the only business software you'll ever need.

这是一个全功能一体化平台，能让您的工作更轻松。

It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.

包含客户关系管理、财务、库存、电子商务等多项功能。

CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.

最棒的部分是什么？

And the best part?

Odoo能以极低成本替代多个昂贵平台。

Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

这就是为什么已有数千家企业选择转型。

That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.

您还在等什么呢？

So why not you?

立即免费试用Odoo，请访问odoo.com。

Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.

网址是odoo.com。

That's odoo.com.

调整舵轮。

Race the rudder.

升起船帆。

Raise the sails.

升起船帆。

Raise the sails.

船长，一艘不明船只正在接近。

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

完毕。

Over.

收到。

Roger.

等等。

Wait.

那是一个企业销售解决方案吗？

Is that an enterprise sales solution?

触达销售专业人士，而非专业水手。

Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors.

通过领英广告，您可以根据行业、职位等精准定位目标人群。

With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more.

立即开始转化您的B2B受众。

Start converting your b two b audience today.

首单广告消费满250美元，即可获赠250美元信用额度用于下次投放。

Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one.

立即前往linkedin.com/campaign开启推广。

Get started today at linkedin.com/campaign.

条款与条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

萨克斯第五大道让您轻松欢度佳节。

Saks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to holiday your way.

无论是寻觅完美礼物还是精致穿搭，萨克斯应有尽有。

Whether it's finding the right gift or the right outfit, Saks is where you can find everything.

从为难以取悦的姐妹准备的完美Chloe包，到节日晚宴所需的Prada夹克。

From the perfect Chloe bag for your hard to shop for sister to a Prada jacket for a fancy holiday dinner.

如果你不知从何开始，saks.com会根据你的个人风格定制推荐，帮你节省购物时间。

And if you don't know where to start, saks.com is customized to your personal style so you can save time shopping.

让这个季度的购物变得轻松有趣，在萨克斯第五大道找到适合你节日风格的礼物与灵感。

Make shopping fun and easy this season and find gifts and inspiration to suit your holiday style at Saks Fifth Avenue.

所以我能想象——你可以告诉我这些是否引起共鸣，因为我确实在广撒网，我们刚认识。

So I can imagine, and you tell me if any of this resonates, because it's really I'm fishing with a broad net, we just met.

但有时那个成为父母心腹的小男孩，会知晓他们的不和，察觉他们的紧张与忧虑，这些可能对他们的关系产生影响。

But sometimes the little boy who becomes the confidant to his beloved parents is privy to their discord, is privy to their tensions and worries that that may have consequences for their relationship.

于是他成为了一个出色的外交家。

And so he becomes a marvelous diplomat.

他让自己变得不可或缺。

And he makes himself indispensable.

他心想：只要他们还来找我，就不会有坏事发生——不仅是对他们，也是对你。

And he thinks as long as they come to me, nothing bad will happen to me, not just to them, to you.

这种状态已成为第二天性，以至于你甚至感受不到被抛弃的恐惧，因为它被你的工具性、同理心和协调能力所掩盖。

And that becomes such second nature that no, you don't even feel the fear of abandonment because it's covered up with your instrumentality, with your empathy, with your facilitation skills.

但你直接触及了核心，我认为你的判断非常准确。

But you went straight there and I think you're right on the mark.

我会变得重要，我会被需要，但为什么被如此需要对我而言这么重要？

I will be important, I will be needed, But why does it matter for me to be so needed?

因为如果我被需要，你就不会离开我。

Because if I'm needed, you won't leave me.

或者说你们就不会分开——这对我有直接影响。

Or you won't leave each other for that matter, which has consequences for me.

是的。

Yeah.

在这个小圈子里，朋友间发生的事——他们变得如此亲密，特别是在疫情期间住得近的情况下。

And I think in in this little microcosm, what's been happening with the friends, they have become such close friends, especially living nearby over the pandemic and everything.

尤其随着年龄增长，社交圈不再总是围绕身边人时，正因为他们都是如此重要的朋友，我不想失去他们。

And especially as I've gotten older and you know your networks, you're not surrounded by people all the time, that because they're both such strong friends, I don't want to lose them.

我知道他们彼此相爱，也知道他们在这方面很般配，但如果他们因为任何原因分开，我内心会觉得自己没有尽力帮助他们。

And I know they love each other and I know they're well suited in that way but if they were to dissolve for whatever reason, part of me would think I didn't do enough to help them.

然后我会为失去这段在二十多岁才找到的珍贵友谊感到自责——虽然我说得好像自己快临终了，但这确实意义重大。

And I would then feel responsible for losing this really great friendship that I've managed to find in my late twenties, which I'm talking like I'm towards my deathbed, but it does feel significant.

他们是我生命中重要的人，会陪伴我很长时间。

They feel like significant people in my life that will be there for a long time.

这

That

很美好，他们理应如此重要。

is beautiful, and they should be significant.

但这不意味着你需要承担不属于你的责任。

That doesn't mean that you have to take on responsibilities that don't belong to you.

你很重要，但没那么重要。

You're important, but not that important.

如果他们没能走下去，那只是因为他们之间的问题。

If it doesn't work out for them, it's because of whatever is happening between them.

即使需要小心经营，你依然可以继续与他们保持友谊。

And you can continue your friendship with them even though it demands navigating.

这是一支复杂的舞曲，但人类自古以来就在跳这支舞。

It's a complicated dance, but we've done that forever.

所以做好朋友的本分——成为他们的挚友、希望他们留在你生命里、意识到自己的社交圈缩小了且真的不想失去他们——并不意味着你要对他们的感情关系负责，在你心里这等同于要为他们能否在一起负责。

So you be a good friend, but being their best friend and wanting them in your life and realizing your circle has shrunk and you really don't wanna lose them doesn't mean that you become responsible for their relationship, which in your mind means for them being a couple.

这有点自视甚高了。

It's a bit grandiose.

这本就不该是你的责任。

It's a responsibility that doesn't belong to you.

是啊。

Yeah.

你能想象一种既保持亲密联系，又无需为本该自我负责的感情关系承担责任的联结吗？

Can you imagine a close connection that does not mean taking responsibility for a relationship that should actually take responsibility for itself?

我能想象。

I can.

我只是不确定那会是什么样子。

I I'm just not sure what that would look like.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当我听你们俩说话，看到你们争吵时，我感到很痛心。

When I listen to you both, when I see you in your fights, it pains me.

有时我希望我能做些什么，但我感到无能为力。

Sometimes I wish I could do something, but I feel helpless.

而且我认为你们需要帮助。

And I think you need help.

你们陷入了一个指责、防御、爆发、极乐与地狱的循环中。

You are stuck in a cycle of blame and defense and explosions and bliss and hell.

我很乐意倾听。

And I'm okay listening.

我不...我欢迎你们来找我，但我的角色是倾听而不是承担，某种程度上不接手那些你们不愿承担的部分，因为你们的关系就像一个分发中心，每个人都拿到对方不愿携带的包裹。

I don't I I welcome you coming to me, but my role is going to be to listen and not to take it on and in a way take on that which you don't because your relationship is like a distribution center where everybody gets the package the other one doesn't wanna carry.

所以我要关闭我的设施。

So I'm gonna close my facilities.

我是朋友。

I'm a friend.

我不是中转站。

I'm not a drop off center.

但这句话你更多是对自己说，而非对他们。

But this you say to yourself, of course, more than you say to them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且

And

我认为这也很适合和你伴侣聊聊，因为看起来这是你第一次隐约明白为何会如此深陷其中。

I think that this also would be a great chat with your partner because it seems that this is the first time that you have a glimpse into why you get so ensnared.

你也对自己有了新的认识。

And you've learned something about you.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Definitely.

我觉得我之前从未以同样的方式将这种联系与父母联系起来。

I don't think I kind of have made that connection to my parents before in that same way.

我隐约意识到自己扮演着知己的角色，但不知道这种角色从何而来。

I was kind of aware of the the confidant role, but I didn't know where it had come from.

所以，以这种方式看待它——它是在家庭生活的熔炉中锻造出来的——这绝对是需要更多思考的，我认为确实如此。

So kind of seeing it in that way of it was forged in the flames of family life is something to definitely think more about, I think, for sure.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们的咨询正在进行中。

We are in the midst of our session.

还有很多内容要讨论，请继续关注。

There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

如果你厌倦了数据库的限制和扩展时崩溃的架构，是时候跳出行列思维的框架了。

If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, then it's time to think outside rows and columns.

MongoDB是由开发者专为开发者打造的数据库。

MongoDB is the database built for developers by developers.

它符合ACID标准，具备企业级准备，并精通人工智能。

It's ACID compliant, enterprise ready, and fluent in AI.

这就是为什么众多财富500强企业都选择MongoDB来处理他们最关键的工作负载。

That's why so many of the Fortune 500 trust MongoDB with their most critical workloads.

准备好突破行列思维的局限了吗？

Ready to think outside rows and columns?

立即访问mongodb.com/build，开启更快速的开发之旅。

Start building faster at mongodb.com/build.

本节目由Odoo赞助播出。

Support for this show comes from Odoo.

经营企业本就不易，何必再用十几个互不兼容的应用给自己添麻烦？

Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

隆重推出Odoo。

Introducing Odoo.

这是您唯一需要的商业软件。

It's the only business software you'll ever need.

它是一个全功能一体化集成平台，让您的工作更轻松——涵盖CRM、财务、库存、电商等所有功能。

It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.

最棒的部分是什么？

And the best part?

Odoo能以极低成本替代多个昂贵平台。

Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

这就是为什么已有数千家企业选择转型。

That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.

您还在等什么？

So why not you?

立即免费试用Odoo，访问odoo.com。

Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.

那是odoo.com。

That's odoo.com.

过去几年间，一个重大理念已深入人心。

Over the last few years, a big idea has taken root.

树木或许正在彼此交流。

Trees might be talking to each other.

有人称之为'木联网'。

Some call it the wood wide web.

木联网。

The wood wide web.

木联网。

The wood wide web.

而这一切都发生在地下。

And it's all happening underground.

在地下存在着另一个世界，一个由无限生物通路构成的网络，连接树木使其得以交流，让整片森林表现得如同单一生命体。

Underground, there is this other world, a world of infinite biological pathways that connect trees and allow them to communicate and allow the forest to behave as though it's a single organism.

这是个美好的想象，但它是真实的吗？

It's a beautiful image, but is it real?

很多人可能对森林的运作方式抱有某种幻想，而非了解真实情况。

Lots of people potentially are sort of getting this somewhat of a fantasy about how forests work rather than the true picture.

这是一场受欢迎的辩论。

It's a welcome debate.

我们需要深入研究，弄清楚实际情况。

We need to lean in and figure out what is actually happening.

本周《不可言说》节目将讲述会说话的树木及其引发的争议。

This week on Unexplainable, the story of the talking trees and the pushback.

每周三请在任何收听平台关注《不可言说》获取新剧集。

Follow unexplainable wherever you listen for new episodes every Wednesday.

当它们与你交流时，你会感到身体有反应吗？比如开始觉得...卡住了？

Do you feel it in your body when they talk to you and you start to feel, like, stuck?

我会。

I do.

是的

Yeah.

就像一股热流从胸口涌上来，直抵喉咙

It's like it's like a hot current up through like my chest that kind of gets to the throat.

对

Yeah.

这很有趣

And it's it's funny.

我觉得在这些情况下，我通过充当知己来用一桶水浇灭火焰，因为这让我感觉自己能成为旁观者

I think it's in those situations that I I douse the fire with the bucket of water by being the confidant because that makes me feel like I can be the observer.

我可以抽离出来

I can remove myself.

我可以在当下与他们两人或单独相处时筑起对抗情绪的墙

I can put up the wall against emotions in the moment with the two of them or individually and whatever.

而当我离开那个情境后，墙倒塌时，所有的紧张感依然存在

And then when I leave that situation and then the wall comes down, all the tension hasn't gone away.

它一直在墙的另一侧等待着。

It's just been waiting at the other side of the wall.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后所有情绪就会在事后突然涌来，冲击着我。

And then it all just rushes in and and hits me after the fact.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你有了一个起点。

So you have a place to start.

嗯。

Mhmm.

用你自己的话来说。

Put it in your own words.

你首先想尝试改变或关注的是什么？

What's the first thing you wanna try to do differently or to pay attention to?

我首先想关注的是当这些情况发生时，我自己的反应和身体状态，并寻找那些迹象。

The first thing I wanna pay attention to is my own reactions and my body when these situations happen and look for those signs.

而不是不表达出来，坐着承受这一切，试图帮忙和解决问题，我打算只是在那里，让事情在一定程度上自然发展。

And rather than not vocalizing that and sitting and taking all of this and trying to help and trying to fix, I'm just going to be there and just going to let things happen to a certain degree.

然后如果感觉变得太强烈，我会知道该说：我只是在这里倾听。

And then if it becomes too much, if the feeling is becoming too strong, I'll know to say, I'm just here to listen.

我不是来解决问题的。

I'm not here to fix.

是的。

Yep.

你不需要等那么久。

You don't need to wait that long.

这是我唯一想建议的。

That's the only thing I would suggest.

好的。

Okay.

当你感到胸口紧缩，双手按在胸前时，你要意识到：哦，我认识这种恐惧。

When you feel that contraction and constriction to your chest and you put your hands on your chest and you identify it with, oh, I know that fear.

我认识这种紧张感，那种紧握感，你可以告诉他们这是因为当人们争吵时——我想留给你一个观点：

I know that tension, that grip, you can let them know it's because when people fight, here's something I want to leave you with.

通常当人们在朋友或他人面前争吵时，他们会表现得毫无顾忌。

Often when people fight in front of a friend or in front of others, they fight like they have nothing to lose.

愤怒让他们变得肆无忌惮。

Their anger emboldens them.

他们会说出自以为无需承担后果的话。

They can say things they think have no consequences.

而你的身体反应是：你正在记录这些痛苦、伤害、即将到来的失去，以及言语中伤的伤痕，这时你的胸口会变得异常紧绷。

And what's happening in your body is that you're registering the pain, the hurt, the impending loss, the scars of the slings, and that's when your chest goes really tight.