当挪威将三文鱼寿司引入日本时

本BBC播客在英国境外由广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

1962年10月，原子弹将使世界濒临全面毁灭的边缘。

In October 1962, the atomic bomb will bring the world very close to total destruction.

赌注如此之高。

The stakes were so high.

肯尼迪总统与赫鲁晓夫总理这两个人，站在炸弹与核毁灭之间。

Two men, president Kennedy and premier Khrushchev, stand between the bomb and nuclear annihilation.

比战争史上曾使用过的所有爆炸物威力更大的武器，就部署在古巴这个小港口。

More explosive power than has ever been used in the history of warfare is located in this little port on Cuba.

古巴导弹危机就此爆发。

The Cuban Missile Crisis has begun.

这里是BBC国际频道的《炸弹》节目。

This is the bomb from the BBC World Service.

第三季《肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫》，讲述古巴导弹危机的故事。

Season three, Kennedy and Khrushchev, the story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

无论您在哪里收听BBC播客，都可以搜索'The Bomb'节目。

Search for the bomb wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

你好。

Hello.

我是格雷格·詹纳，《You're Dead to Me》的主持人。

Greg Jenner here, host of You're Dead to Me.

在我的新家庭友好播客系列《Dead Funny History》中，历史人物会短暂复活，与我争论、讲述他们的生平故事，有时还会惹恼我。

In my new family friendly podcast series, Dead Funny History, historical figures come back to life for just about long enough to argue with me, tell us their life stories, and sometimes get on my nerves.

共有15集精彩内容可供探索，包括拉美西斯大帝、约瑟芬·贝克的故事，以及足球历史等等。

There's 15 lovely episodes to unwrap, including the life of Ramses the great, Josephine Baker, and the history of football plus much, much more.

这个圣诞节，让您的耳朵享受《Dead Funny History》的乐趣吧。

So this Christmas, give your ears a treat with dead funny history.

您可以在BBC官网的《You're Dead to Me》栏目或任何播客平台找到它。

You can find it in the you're dead to me feed on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎收听BBC国际服务的《见证历史》播客，我是主持人拉斯·帕万格。

Welcome to the witness history podcast from the BBC World Service with me, Lars Pavanger.

今天，我将带您回到1986年，讲述一位来自挪威北极圈地区、深爱日本文化的男子如何用一个创意彻底改变全球寿司食用方式的故事。

Today, I'm taking you back to 1986 when a man from the Arctic North Of Norway with a profound love of Japan had an idea that would transform how the world eats sushi.

1954年上映的电影《七武士》在比约恩·埃里克·奥尔森年幼时，就为他打开了认识日本及其文化的大门。

The 1954 film, The Seventh Samurai, opened Bjorn Erik Olsen's eyes to Japan and its culture when he was very young.

在我的家乡，1967年之前我们都没有电视。

In my hometown, we didn't have television before 1967.

那年我12岁，人生看的第一部电影就是《七武士》。

I was 12, and the first movie I saw was The Seven Saburai.

我完全被这部电影震撼了，当时就下定决心要以某种方式成为他们那样的人。

And I was completely taken by that film, and I decided at that moment that I want to be like them in a way.

比约恩·埃里克对日本文化的痴迷促使他移居日本第三大城市大阪学习语言。

Bjorn Eirik's interest in all things Japanese led him to move to Osaka, Japan's third city, to learn the language.

随后他在福冈的九州大学专攻海藻的生产与应用研究。

Then he studied the production and use of seaweed at the Kyushu University in Fukuoka.

到1986年，这使他成为挪威政府‘日本项目’市场分析师的理想人选，该项目旨在将热爱鱼类的日本转变为挪威鱼类的新兴大市场。

By 1986, this had made him the perfect candidate when the Norwegian government needed a market analyst for its project Japan, an attempt to turn fish loving Japan into a big new market for Norwegian fish.

启动这个所谓的‘日本项目’的主要原因是鳕鱼、虾、红鱼和鲱鱼。

The main reason for starting this Project Japan, as it was called, was the kaplin, shrimp, redfish, and herring.

但到了1980年代末，挪威的鲑鱼养殖业迅速发展，我清楚地意识到这种鱼类潜力巨大。

But by the late nineteen eighties, Norway's salmon farming industry was growing rapidly, and it became clear in mind that this fish had huge potential.

我发现日本市场最有趣的部分是寿司和生鱼片市场，这些市场由金枪鱼、蓝鳍金枪鱼、鲷鱼以及各种贝类等高价值海鲜主导。

I could see that the most interesting segment of the Japanese market was the sushi and sashimi market dominated by very valuable seafood such as tuna, bluefin tuna, and sea bream, and and various kind of of of shellfish.

用于寿司和生鱼片的生鱼售价可达烹饪用鱼的10倍。

Fish used raw in sushi and sashimi would fetch up to 10 times more than when sold for cooking.

但有一个问题。

There was only one problem.

日本人过去不吃生鲑鱼。

The Japanese didn't eat salmon raw.

主要原因实际上是日本北部的野生鱼类可能携带寄生虫。

The main reason actually was that the in the northern part of Japan, the wild fish can catch parasites.

当我们首次向业内人士介绍三文鱼寿司或刺身时，比如批发商、超市采购或进口商。

When we first introduced sushi salmon or sashimi salmon to people working in the industry, like wholesalers or supermarket people or importers.

他们说，哦，闻起来有河腥味。

They said, oh, it smells like a river.

颜色不对。

The color is wrong.

红得不够。

It's not red enough.

所以整个任务就是要改变1.2亿日本人对生食三文鱼的认知、习惯和态度。

So the whole task was to change the perception, the habits, and the attitude of 120,000,000 Japanese to eating salmon raw.

为了与日本人从不生吃的野生太平洋三文鱼区分开，他的团队为挪威三文鱼起了个新名字。

To set their product apart from wild Pacific salmon that people in Japan would never eat raw, and his team came up with a new name for the Norwegian salmon.

我明确得出结论：我们不能把挪威三文鱼称为"シャケ"（日语中的三文鱼），否则会与日本三文鱼的食用文化混为一谈。

My clear conclusion was that we cannot call the Norwegian salmon shakke, which is the Japanese name for salmon, because then it will be mixed with the culture of how to eat the Japanese salmon.

我们必须给它一个新名字，于是我们直接使用"サーモン"（salmon）这个名称。

We have to give it a new name, and we just use the name salmon.

因此挪威三文鱼就是日本市场上对挪威三文鱼的称呼。

So Norway salmon was the Japanese station of Norwegian salmon.

当然，这个名字对他们来说完全陌生。

And that name was, of course, totally foreign for them.

当时没人知道三文鱼是什么。

Nobody knew what the salmon was.

所以我们不得不打造一个全新的名称。

So we had to build a completely new name.

挪威人开始在超市为'诺鲁三文鱼'开展营销活动，并在90年代初与日本顶级厨师合作，其中包括因富士电视台烹饪节目《铁人料理》而闻名的石锅裕。

Now the Norwegians began running marketing campaigns in supermarkets for Norue salmon and also linked up with some of the biggest names among Japanese chefs in the early nineteen nineties, including Yukata Ishinabe, famous from the TV cookery program Iron Chef, created and broadcast by Fuji Television Network.

由美，爱德华。

Yomi, Edward.

《铁人料理》。

Iron Chef.

先生。

Mr.

石锅先生，那位在日本电视上非常受欢迎的‘铁人厨师’，我们与他取得了联系，他将三文鱼引入节目，并展示了大西洋鲑与太平洋鲑的区别。

Ishinabe, the iron chef, who was very popular in the Japanese TV, he he had we had contact with him, and he brought the salmon into his program and and showed the the difference of of Atlantic salmon to the Pacific salmon.

所以你们找到了一些重量级的鱼类影响者？

So you got both some serious fish influencers?

他确实是社交媒体出现很久之前就很有影响力的人物。

They were he was really an influencer long, long before the social media.

这有所帮助，但真正的突破仍难以实现。

This helped, but a real breakthrough remained elusive.

随后事情出现了转机。

Then things took another turn.

到90年代初，挪威养殖三文鱼的产量增长速度远超欧美市场的消化能力。

By the early nineteen nineties, Norwegian farmed salmon production was growing much faster than what buyers in Europe and The US could handle.

挪威的冷冻库里积压了3.5万吨三文鱼，这成了个大问题。

35,000 tons of salmon were stuck in freezers in Norway, and that was a problem.

当然，所有市场都知晓这一情况，因此价格确实暴跌了。

And, of course, all the markets knew this, so the prices really collapsed.

挪威半数的养鱼场宣告破产。

And half of the fish farmers in Norway went bankrupt.

风险在于整个三文鱼产业都将破产，养殖业历史可能就此终结。

The risk was that the whole salmon industry will go bankrupt, and it will be the end of the farming history.

在如此严峻的形势下，挪威曾大力推动将多达1.2万吨三文鱼出售给日本某大型海鲜企业，用于传统烹饪而非寿司。

With the situation so difficult, there was a massive push to sell up to 12,000 tons of the salmon to one of Japan's largest seafood companies for use in traditional cooking, not sushi.

但我阻止了这个计划。

But I stopped it.

我请大使陪同，与外交部长进行了电话会谈。

I got the ambassador to with me to and we talked with the minister of foreign affair on telephone.

我记忆犹新。

I remember very well.

我们明确表示：若允许此事，将彻底摧毁我们为挪威三文鱼建立寿司和刺身新声誉的所有努力。

And we said, if you allow this, that could destroy everything that we've done in building up a new reputation of Norwe salmon for sushi and sashimi.

我们还将颜面尽失，因为此前已向日本产业界承诺会保持合作。

And we'd also will will lose face because we had said to the Japanese industry that we will cooperate.

我们不会在你们的领域与你们竞争。

We will not compete with you on your areas.

相反，我们必须想出办法，于是我们与一家名为日冷的公司达成了协议，该公司专营冷冻产品。

But instead, we had to come up with something, and we then made an agreement with a company called Nichirei that was specialized in frozen products.

他们同意购买5000或6000吨，并将其作为寿司和刺身用三文鱼进行包装、营销和销售。

And they agreed to buy 6,000 or 5,000 tons and market and sell it and pack it as salmon for sushi and sashimi.

挪威人现在得到了一家日本大企业的支持，这家企业能帮助他们按原计划推广三文鱼。

The Norwegians now had the backing of a major Japanese company that could help market their salmon as they had intended.

然而，另一件事最终对日本人消费生三文鱼的方式产生了更大影响。

Yet it was another event that would eventually have a bigger impact on how the Japanese consumed raw salmon.

经过十年的快速增长，日本的经济泡沫在九十年代初破裂了。

After a decade of rapid growth, Japan's economic bubble burst at the start of the nineteen nineties.

以下是BBC财经节目在1919年10月对此的报道。

Here's how the BBC's money program reported this in October 1919.

到目前为止，大部分流血事件都发生在东京股市。

So far, most of the blood has been spilled here in Tokyo's stock market.

一年前，它还自豪地宣称自己是全球最大的。

A year ago, it was proudly boasting it was the world's largest.

自那以后，它已经下跌了40%。

Since then, it's fallen by 40%.

利率上升引发了崩盘，这几乎让日本所有人都措手不及。

Higher interest rates triggered a crash, which took almost everyone in Japan completely by surprise.

在日本餐馆里，寿司曾经相当昂贵。

Sushi was rather expensive in the restaurants in Japan.

经济崩溃后，这种传送带寿司开始流行起来，因为它们可以更便宜地出售寿司。

And when the economic crash came, the use of this conveyor belt sushi became popular because they could sell the sushi cheaper.

这意味着普通家庭也能开始外出享用寿司了。

And that meant that families could start going out and eat sushi.

在传送带上，当鱼片转过来时，孩子们可以直接拿取。

And on the conveyor belt, when the fish goes around, the children just can grasp things.

而且他们对鲑鱼并没有那种负面看法。

And they didn't have this kind of negative attitude towards salmon and salmon.

所以当他们看到这种橙色或金色的鱼经过时，就拿起来尝了尝，结果很喜欢。

So when they saw this orange or golden fish passing by, they took it, and they liked it.

他们非常喜欢。

They liked it very much.

然后，当然，母亲尝了尝，觉得，哦，这个很好吃。

And then, of course, the mother tasted it and thought, oh, this is good.

所以它某种程度上就火起来了。

So it kind of exploded.

比约恩·埃里克于1994年离开东京，当时他负责将挪威三文鱼作为寿司营销的工作告一段落，他回到了挪威。

Bjorn Eirik left Tokyo in 1994 when his role in marketing Norwegian salmon as sushi came to an end, and he returned to Norway.

他对三文鱼寿司已在日本菜单上确立地位持谨慎乐观态度，但并非百分百确定。

He was quietly optimistic that salmon sushi had been established on the Japanese menu, but he wasn't a 100% sure.

当我1995年夏天回来时，那是我从大使馆退休半年后，我去了银座的一家寿司店。

When I came back in the summer nineteen ninety five, half a year after I retired from the embassy, I went to one of the sushi shops in Ginza.

在店外的橱窗里，他们陈列着所有供应食物的塑料样品。

In the window outside, they have these plastic copies of all the food they serve.

这是我第一次看到用橙色挪威三文鱼做顶料的寿司握，那时我意识到这确实是重大突破——连制作仿真寿司的模具或塑料制品现在都在生产三文鱼握寿司了。

And then I saw for the first time this sushi nigiri with the orange Norwegian salmon topping, And then I realized that now it's really a breakthrough when even these fabrics that make the look alike sushi or plastic are now making the salmon nigiri.

如今，三文鱼不仅是日本寿司店的首选鱼类之一，更是风靡全球寿司餐厅。

Today, salmon is one of the top fish choices in sushi restaurants, not only in Japan, but around the world.

当你为某个愿景付出努力后，看到它实现会让你感到幸福。

When you do put some effort into a vision, well, to see it come true will make you happy.

但同时也因为...我热爱日本文化，看到日本文化与挪威文化的部分元素相融合让我非常快乐。

But but also because I I love Japanese culture and to see that the Japanese culture has merged with the part of Norwegian culture makes me very happy.

挪威仍是全球最大的人工养殖三文鱼生产国，但该行业对野生鱼类的影响已引发环境担忧。

Norway remains the largest producer of farmed salmon in the world, but environmental concerns have been raised about the industry and its impact on wild fish.

比约恩·艾瑞克·奥尔森仍定期前往他深爱的日本。

Bjorn Airik Olsen still regularly travels to his beloved Japan.

他正在撰写关于自己推广三文鱼寿司历程的书籍，并接受了BBC国际频道《见证历史》播客记者拉斯·帕万格的采访。

He's currently writing a book about his salmon sushi journey, and he was talking to me, Lars Pavanger, for the Witness History podcast from the BBC World Service.

如果您喜欢本期节目，何不给我们留下好评呢？

If you've enjoyed listening, why not leave us a review?

请把它分享给你认为会喜欢听的人。

And please share it with anyone you think would like to hear it.

这真的能帮助我们让更多人知道《见证历史》节目中人们讲述的精彩故事。

It really helps us let people know about the amazing stories people tell us on Witness History.

从精彩绝伦到离奇怪诞

From the brilliant and bizarre

那感觉真的很超现实。

It was really surreal.

那里有种超现实的氛围。

It was a a surreal kinda atmosphere there.

你几乎看不到任何人。

You couldn't really see anybody.

再到震惊与意外。

To the shocking and unexpected.

我只是在想我们现在该怎么办。

I'm just wondering what are we going to do now.

这确实是我最害怕的事情。

This was really my worst fear.

他发现标着牛肉的实际上是100%的马肉。

He found 100% horse meat that was labeled as beef.

见证那些塑造我们世界的故事，由亲历者亲口讲述。

Witness the stories that have shaped our world told by the people who were there.

当他走进工厂时，那只贵宾犬走在他前面。

When he went to the factory, the poodle went in front of him.

所以工人们只想着：哦，老板来了。

So the workers only, oh, the boss is here.

我们的胜利会让很多人失去很多东西。

Many people had many things to lose by our victory.

未来并不那么光明。

The future was not so bright.

见证历史。

Witness history.

我们有一位设计师。

We had a designer.

他带来了一个完整的故事板创意，讲述女王如何从直升机上跳下来抵达现场。

He brought in a fully storyboarded idea about how the queen would arrive by jumping out of a helicopter.

我们都说这想法很棒，但绝不可能实现。

And we all said, that's brilliant, but it's never gonna happen.

访问bbcworldservice.com/witnesshistory或通过您获取播客的任何平台见证历史。

Witness history at bbcworldservice.com/witnesshistory or wherever you get your podcasts.

1962年10月，原子弹将使世界濒临全面毁灭的边缘。

In October 1962, the atomic bomb will bring the world very close to total destruction.

赌注如此之高。

The stakes were so high.

两个人——肯尼迪总统和赫鲁晓夫总理——站在炸弹与核毁灭之间。

Two men, president Kennedy and premier Khrushchev, stand between the bomb and nuclear annihilation.

比战争史上曾使用过的所有爆炸物总和还要强大的火力，就部署在这个古巴的小小港口。

More explosive power than has ever been used in the history of warfare is located in this tiny little port on Cuba.

古巴导弹危机已经爆发。

The Cuban missile crisis has begun.

这里是BBC国际频道的《炸弹》节目。

This is the bomb from the BBC World Service.

第三季《肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫：古巴导弹危机始末》。

Season three, Kennedy and Khrushchev, the story of the Cuban missile crisis.

在您获取BBC播客的任何平台搜索《炸弹》节目。

Search for the bomb wherever you get your BBC podcasts.