被照护所吞噬

您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·加洛。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo.

我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。2023年底，我们的制作人阿曼达在领英上看到我们的一位前嘉宾马蒂·布莱德索的帖子，让她瞪大了眼睛。马蒂用全大写标题写道“相当重大的一年”，确实名副其实。一月，她两个孩子的老大，一名高一新生，仍在经历严重的抑郁发作。

And I'm Amy Bernstein. Toward the end of 2023, our producer Amanda saw a LinkedIn post from one of our former guests, Marty Bledsoe, that made her eyes go wide. Marty had titled the post a pretty big year in all caps and justifiably so. In January, the older of her two children, a freshman in high school, was still coming through a major depressive episode.

当时，马蒂是儿童心理健康基金会的执行董事，所以她对这种障碍足够了解，能迅速协调专业支持。到了三月，令人欣慰的是，她的青少年在心理和情绪上都好转了。

At the time, Marty was the executive director of the Kids Mental Health Foundation, so she knew enough about the disorder to quickly coordinate professional support. By March, happily, her teenager was in a better place mentally and emotionally.

但马蒂没有。她已经辞职了，因为她精疲力竭——就像许多父母一样，一边努力应对孩子的焦虑、抑郁或愤怒，一边还要在工作中保持状态。

But Marty wasn't. She had resigned from her job because she was burnt out just like so many parents straining to manage their kids' anxiety or depression or anger while also keeping up at work.

尽管疲惫不堪，她还是立即开始申请其他地方的领导职位，希望换工作能让她重新振作。在与网络联系人进行Zoom通话的间隙，她哭泣、小睡。

As exhausted as she was, she immediately started applying to leadership roles elsewhere, hoping that changing workplaces would reenergize her. Between Zoom calls with people in her network, she cried and napped.

这样过了一个月，她租住的房子的房东决定自己搬进去，这意味着马蒂和她的孩子们有六十天时间打包离开。就在那时，她立刻重返职场的计划真的开始瓦解。

A month into that routine, the landlord of the house she'd been renting decided he was going to move in, which meant that Marty and her kids had sixty days to pack up and leave. That's when her plans to bounce right back into the workforce really started to fall apart.

是的。我记得那非常混乱，完全不受我控制。

Yeah. I I remember it as very chaotic and out of my control.

她们在她妈妈家住了十二周，直到她在同一学区找到一栋新房子，能容纳她、她的孩子们、她的未婚夫和他的女儿。

They spent twelve weeks at her mom's house before she found a new house within the same school district that would fit them and her fiance and his daughter.

搬家的最后一天，她的未婚夫滑倒，撕裂了髌腱。

The last day of the move, her fiance slipped and tore his patellar tendon.

这种伤需要手术，恢复期长达十六周以上。

An injury that requires surgery and a sixteen week plus recovery.

接着，她住在附近的妈妈需要做紧急白内障手术，然后是视网膜手术，还有几次牙科手术。接着一个孩子视力出问题，另一个孩子呼吸困难。每个问题都要跑好几次医院，花掉Marty大量时间和精力。

Then her mom, who lived nearby, needed emergency cataract surgery, then retina surgery, as well as a couple of dental surgeries. Then one kid was struggling to see well. Another was struggling to breathe well. Each of these problems required multiple doctor's visits and a considerable amount of Marty's time and attention.

这种连轴转让她彻底筋疲力尽。

The grind left her utterly and completely spent.

维持所有标准： orthodontist预约、换机油、跟进账单、确保邮件转发、给每个人续处方药、送未婚夫去做物理治疗、送妈妈去眼科复查、还要负责所有孩子的接送，因为那两位本来是我的替补司机。给10岁娃安排夏令营，给大娃报名、缴费、参加夏季垒球联赛，协调每周三次的居家心理辅导继续支持孩子的心理健康，还要策划年底的婚礼和早午餐庆祝我们新组建的家庭。听起来挺幸福，但我们其实因为髌腱撕裂、拐杖和护膝差点要改期婚礼，要是真改，会损失一大笔钱。

Maintaining all the standards, the orthodontist appointments, getting the oil change, following up on bills, making sure the mail got forwarded, renewing everybody's prescriptions, driving my fiance to physical therapy, driving my mom to eye recheck appointments, and doing all kid driving since those two were my backup drivers. Juggling summer camp for my 10 year old, signing up, paying for, and then attending summer softball league for my oldest, coordinating at home counseling three times a week to continue supporting my kids' mental health, and then planning a year end wedding and brunch to celebrate our newly blended family. And that sounds like a happy one, but we actually thought we'd have to reschedule the wedding because of the torn patella tendon and the crutches and the knee brace, and we would have lost a lot of money had we done that.

他最后勉强能走上红毯，完成了第一支舞。然后又到了

He ended up being okay enough to walk down the aisle and got through their first dance. And then it was the time

年度开放参保的时候。我试图用COBRA延续一套福利，同时研究另一套福利的参保，因为我们有符合条件的生活事件，这很令人兴奋，但相关文件多到让人头大。然后还有更多的开车接送。我一直在想，这真的是我的生活吗？

of year for open enrollment. And I was trying to COBRA continue one set of benefits, figure out enrollment into another set of benefits because we had a qualifying event, which was very exciting, but also the paperwork was mind blowing. And then there was more driving. I kept thinking, is this really my life?

威斯康星大学的社会学家Jessica Calarco说，这种不断膨胀、毫不留情的责任清单，对很多美国人来说是常态。

Jessica Calarco, who's a sociologist at the University of Wisconsin, says this grind, this ever expanding relentless set of responsibilities is the norm for lots of us in The US.

一旦女性从职场退一步，就很容易陷入默认的照顾者角色，也会做出后续选择，让别人觉得由你来承担更多照顾责任是理所当然的。

Once women take a step back in the workforce, it can be very easy to fall into that default caregiver role and also leads to choices that then make it easier for you to be seen as the one who is logically most responsible for other types of care that comes down the line.

Jessica在她的书《Holding It Together: How Women Became America's Safety Net》中写了这条 slippery slope。她来这里

Jessica writes about the slippery slope in her book Holding It Together, How Women Became America's Safety Net. She's here to

帮Marty梳理她LinkedIn帖子里说的“相当夸张的一年”，或者更像Marty远离带薪工作的“一年多”。她们俩都在这里，帮助那些被照顾责任吞噬过的人，理解让你陷入其中的那些力量。下面是我与她们的对话。之后我会

help Marty make sense of that pretty big year, as Marty called her LinkedIn post, or more like a year plus away from paid work. They're both here to help those of you who've ever been consumed by caregiving understand the forces that got you there. Here's my conversation with them. And I'll be back

回来和你聊聊。

afterwards to chat with you about it.

Marty，你一辞职就开始找新工作。你是怎么开始的？你每周想完成什么？然后告诉我们实际发生了什么。

Marty, you started looking for a new job as soon as you resigned. How did you set out? What did you want to accomplish each week? And then tell us what actually happened.

我想每天花一两个小时在LinkedIn上，看看我人脉里的人都在做什么，关注那些可能和我行业相关的公司，我想留在这一行，还要准备如今找工作所需的一切，因为你需要多个版本的简历才能通过AI筛选，你需要一段电梯演讲，说明你在找什么、能做什么。我还想去做咨询，我真的觉得，我可以一边找工作，一边按小时收费，这样就不会感觉落差太大。

I wanted to spend an hour or two a day on LinkedIn, you know, looking around at folks in my network, what they were up to, following companies that might be in my line of work that I wanted to stay in, and working on all the things that it takes today to get a job because you need multiple versions of your resume so they can get past AI bots that are screening. You need your elevator speech of what you're looking for and what you can do. And I wanted to be consulting. I really felt like, gosh. I can look for a job, and I can bill out at my hourly rate, and then this really won't feel like too much of a of a bump.

嗯。但你的时间并不只是花在找下一份工作上，对吧？

Mhmm. But your time wasn't spent just on finding your next job. Right?

完全不是。事实上，时间不知不觉就没了。我那段时间一直在打包、搬家、拆包。我在没工作的那段时间里搬了两次家。

No. Not at all. In fact, it was amazing how the hours got eaten up. I was packing to move, moving, and unpacking for quite a bit of that time. I I moved twice in the time, that I wasn't working.

其中一次搬去和我妈妈住。我记得当时做了件特别荒唐的事：我在Facebook上跟一个社交圈发帖说，嘿，我有13盆状态超好的漂亮绿植，我要搬去和我妈住，她家有猫。

Once in with my mother. And of all the ridiculous things I spent time doing at that point, I remember posting on Facebook to one of my networks, hey. I have 13 beautiful house plants that are in great shape. I'm moving in with my mother. She has a cat.

有人能帮我照看这些绿植十周吗？结果那个 volunteered 的女士住在三十分钟外。我真的开始安排绿植的托管。我还做了各种事，接送孩子。有段时间是暑假，对职场父母来说简直是地狱。

Can anybody watch these house plants for ten weeks? And, of course, the woman who volunteered lived thirty minutes away. So I literally found myself arranging care for my house plants. I was doing all kinds of things that, you know, dropping off kids, picking up kids. For a while there, we were in summer vacation, which is hell for working parents.

每周的日程都不一样。

It was a different schedule every week.

嗯。

Mhmm.

每次我一坐下，手机就响，或者有人需要我，一周就这么没了。

And it just felt like every time I would sit down, my phone would ping or somebody would need me and the week would be gone.

Jessica，帮我们放在更大的背景里理解一下。对你来说，这故事并不陌生。为什么像Marty这样的女性会遇到这种情况？

Jessica, help us understand this in the broader context. I mean, this is not an unfamiliar story to you. Why does this happen to women like Marty?

是的。所以其他国家已经投资于帮助人们管理照护需求和责任的政策。他们制定了让人们有尊严地生活、获得经济机会、并能公平可持续地共同承担照护项目的政策。在美国，我们却告诉人们，他们应该能够在不依赖政府甚至雇主支持的情况下照顾自己和家人。但现实是，我们无法靠自己动手打造整个社会。

Yeah. So other countries have invested in policies that help people manage their care needs and responsibilities. They have policies that allow people to live with dignity, to access economic opportunities, and to contribute equitably and sustainably to a shared project of care. In The US, we instead tell people that they should be able to take care of themselves and their families without relying on the government or even their employers for support. But the reality is that we can't just DIY society.

有些人——也许最明显的是孩子，但也有病人、老年人——无法完全照顾自己，而有些工作的薪水不足以让人们照顾自己。因此，承认这些现实基本上会摧毁“自己动手”社会的解决方案。但在美国，我们基本上通过依赖女性来填补空白，维持这种幻觉——让她们成为我们的家庭、社区甚至经济的“社会安全网”，本质上就是照顾那些无法照顾自己的人。我们让女性做这项工作，部分原因是从小她们刚能抱娃娃时就被培养成照护者，同时也把她们推向照护角色，然后拒绝为她们履行这些角色提供任何支持。就像马蒂谈到的，在那些情况下，女性很容易成为家庭默认的照护者。

Some people, maybe most obviously children, but also people who are sick, people who are elderly, can't fully take care of themselves and some jobs don't pay enough to allow people to take care of themselves as well. So acknowledging these realities would essentially destroy the solution of a DIY society. But in The US we essentially managed to maintain this illusion by relying on women to fill in the gaps, to be that social safety net for our families and for our community and even for our economy, essentially by taking care of the people who can't take care of themselves. And we get women to do that work in part by grooming them for caregiving roles from the time they're old enough to hold a baby doll, but also by pushing them into caregiving roles and then denying them any support in meeting those roles. Like Marty talked about, in those situations it becomes very easy for women to become the default caregivers for their families.

如果你是一个女性，在家庭中常常因为性别薪酬差距而比男性伴侣挣得少，如果有人必须牺牲带薪工作时间，很可能就是你。一旦你踏入那个默认照护者的角色，就像马蒂说的，作为默认照护者的工作变得不可见，然后默认照护者为适应照护责任而做出的选择叠加在一起，使得处于默认位置的女性在照护需求随时间增加时，承担更多照护责任看起来似乎顺理成章、自然而然。

If you are a woman in a household where you are often because of gender pay gaps earning less than your male partner, if someone has to sacrifice their paid work hours, you're probably going to do it. And then once you step into that default caregiving role, like Marty was saying, the visibility of that work as a caregiver as the default, then that compiled with the choices that default caregivers have to make to accommodate their caregiving responsibilities makes it seem sort of logical and natural for women who are in that default position to take on even more of the responsibility for care as those care needs kind of increase over time.

那么马蒂，读了这本书并听到杰西卡刚才说的，这如何塑造或重塑你对自己人生经历的看法？

So Marty, having read the book and having heard what Jessica just said, how does that shape or reshape the way you think about what happened in your own life?

感觉它把很多零散的感受和概念连接起来了。从理性上讲，我有点恍然大悟：不只是我一个人。事实就是，一旦有人看到一个女性“有空”，那就得小心了。

It felt like it connected a lot of disparate feelings and concepts for me. From an intellectual standpoint, I sort of felt a light bulb, like, it's not just me. It's truly the fact that the minute somebody sees a female with, quote unquote, time on her hands, watch out.

对。这如何影响你的自尊，影响你对自己的认知，马蒂？

Right. How did that mess with your self esteem, with your own sort of concept of who you are, Marty?

我觉得这在心理上非常动摇，如果可以这么形容的话。我感到被操控，但好像是被自己和周围的人一起操控。就好像：哦，你本来有两三份全职工作，我们拿走一份，然后另外两份会填补很多空出来的时间。但别忘了，你还应该用另一份全职工作来替代被拿走的那一份。

I think it was very psychologically destabilizing, if if that's a way to explain it. I felt gaslit, but kind of by myself and the people around me. It was like, oh, you had two or three full time jobs. We're gonna take one away, and then the other two are going to fill in a lot of that room. But don't forget, you should be trying to replace the third full time job with another full time job.

嗯。我刚开始找工作时，回顾了我所有的求职信，我在申请心理健康组织、儿童相关机构的执行董事、CEO、COO职位。然后我会想，我到底在想什么——如果他们明天打电话让我面试，我该怎么应付？假设他们给我offer，谁来把植物搬回屋里？

Mhmm. And the the beginning of my job search, I looked back through all of my cover letters, and I was applying for executive director, CEO, COO roles in mental health organizations, in child focused organizations. And then I would sort of think to myself, what am I think how in the world if they called me tomorrow to interview for this, how would I how would I even manage it? Let's say they offered it to me. Who's gonna go pick up the plants when it's time to move them back to the house?

我知道我不能要求别人去做。就算我开口，很可能也是另一位女性，她得把这事塞进她已有的五万七千件事里。于是我开始降低我敢去找的职位层级。我不再盯着组织最高层的空缺，而是开始找总监、副总监、高级经理这类头衔。这些头衔我自己职业生涯里已经十五年没再用过了，但我想也许在人生的这个阶段，我无法付出成为组织顶层所需的一切，因为显然，有人需要我。

I know that I can't ask anybody else to do that. And if I did, it would probably be another woman who would fit it into the 57,000 things she has to do. And so I kind of started to back off the level of what I felt like I could look for. I I stopped going to the top of the org chart openings, and I started looking for, you know, director, associate director, senior manager type titles. Now these are titles I haven't held in my own career in fifteen years, but I thought maybe I'm not going to be able at this time of my life to deliver what it takes to be at the top of an org chart because clearly, needs me.

甚至那些从中受益的人，我想他们也不会坐着感叹：哇，有你做这些照护真是太幸运了。我常常想，天哪，如果我当时一直在工作会怎样？

And even the people around me who benefited from it, I don't think we're sitting around going, wow. We're so lucky that you are caring and doing all these things. And I often think, Oh my God, what if I had been working?

如果你当时在工作呢？给我们设想一下。如果你当时全职工作会怎样？

What if you had been working? So play that out for us. What if you had been working full time?

我的意思是，我觉得那必须是一份能让我说：听着，接下来的六个月里，我只能做兼职，或者我得动用短期残疾保险、FMLA（家庭与医疗休假法），总之得想办法构造一个场景，让我能贡献一部分时间，希望仍然带来相当的价值，但我确实无法像平常或期望的那样随时待命。不过我也常常想，要是我刚换工作，正处于那种飞速学习、拼命认识人、努力证明自己、想站稳脚跟的阶段，那绝对会彻底崩盘。所以那必须是一个我待了一段时间、有这类时间福利、上司也理解的地方。个人上司的重要性怎么强调都不为过，他们能让这事可行，也能让它不可行。

I mean, I think it would have had to be either a role where I could say, look. For the next, whatever, six months, I'm gonna have to work part time, or I'm gonna have to use some short term disability and some, you know, FMLA or or somehow construct a scenario where I can give you part of the time, hopefully, still quite a bit of the value, but I just cannot be available the way I would normally be or or would like to be. But I wonder sometimes, you know, certainly had I been in a in a new job, in that sort of time where you're learning so fast and you're trying to meet everybody and you're trying to prove yourself and get settled, that would have been a total a total disaster. It So would have had to be somewhere, you know, where I'd been a while where they had those kinds of time benefits, where I had an understanding manager. I mean, you cannot you cannot overemphasize the importance of the individual manager and how they can make that viable or not viable.

说到底，我还是可能丢掉工作，因为我就是撞上了贡献的极限。我常反思的一件事就是，当我们谈论平衡、工作生活平衡时，我往往会说：好吧，假设你把你的伴侣关系、育儿、工作和自身健康都摆平了。

And at the end of the day, I still might have lost my job because I just hit kind of a wall of of contribution. And I think that's one of the things that I often reflect on when we talk about balance, work life balance. I'm often like, okay. Fine. Let's just say that you get your partnership and your parenting and your working and your self health in some sort of balance.

可如果你这个人才是中间的支点，我觉得你四面八方都被磨得快散架了。

But if you, the person, are the fulcrum in the middle, I have a feeling you're pretty worn down on all sides.

是啊。因为对我来说——我下班连去日托接狗都觉得费劲——所以我不知道你是怎么熬过那些需求的，但在我看来，这根本就是持续的工作生活失衡。玛蒂，你的经历跟《向前一步》给所有人的建议都背道而驰。

Yeah. Because it seems to me I mean, I struggle with picking up my dogs from day care Right. At the end of the day. So I don't know how you have made it through the kinds of demands you've had to face, but it seems to me that it's always work life imbalance all the time. Marty, your experience kind of flies in the face of the advice all of us got in Lean In.

我想知道你对此怎么看。

I'm wondering how how how you think about that.

《向前一步》出版时我的职业生涯处在一个有趣的节点：当时我有一个年幼的孩子，我以为我能——我以为我能永远保持当时的节奏，我以为我还能再“向前一步”。我买了那种DIY式的内疚：来吧姑娘们，去争取下一个机会，去接下一个项目。

Lean In was published at a funny time in my career in that I had one young child, and I thought I could I thought I could sustain the pace I was living forever. I thought I could probably lean in. I bought the DIY guilt of lean in, the come on, girls. Ask for the next thing. You know, take the next project.

去冒险。等到社会上对这种观念的反馈开始大声响起——说不仅仅是“向前一步”，对很多女性来说根本没这么容易——那时我已经有了第二个孩子。我就想，是啊，你知道吗？

Take the risk. And by the time some of the, I guess, would say, by the time some of the societal feedback to that concept had really started to get loud about it's not just leaning in and it's really not that easy for so many women. By that time, I had another child. And I thought, yeah. You know what?

我其实想重新考虑，因为我不仅不想在工作上再“向前一步”，连在家里都不想再“向前一步”了。我想躺平。我当时想，能不能别往前倾了，让我们在这儿歇会儿？所以这确实跟那整套说法都相反。

I actually kind of wanna rethink that because I don't want to lean in any further. Not only at work, but I didn't even wanna lean in anymore at home. I wanted to lay down. I was like, can we stop leaning and take a rest here? So it does fly in the face of all of it.

所以，杰西卡，玛蒂说的我觉得是一种更普遍的经历。我想从你的角度看，是不是——

So, Jessica, you know, what Marty is saying, I think, is kind of a more universal experience. And I'm I'm wondering from your perspective, is

在

there

一个正在取代“向前一步”的叙事是什么？

a narrative that's taking the place of lean in, and what is it?

我的意思是，不幸的是，我认为“向前一步”的叙事仍然非常根深蒂固。即使有些人对书中的具体观点提出了质疑，我认为仍然存在这种期望。我研究中采访的许多女性，无论是第一次做母亲还是刚起步的职场新人，仍然感受到“拥有一切”的压力，要努力成为全能，追逐每一个机会，还要为其他女性树立榜样，既要在职场做领导者，又要在家里做Pinterest级别的完美妈妈。如果说有什么叙事可能取代“向前一步”，那可能是“传统妻子”叙事，部分原因在于“向前一步”长期来看是多么不可持续。我认为这也是我书中提到的一点：一些年轻女性选择成为家庭主妇，而不是在职场“向前一步”，部分原因是她们意识到前者更可持续。

I mean, unfortunately, the lean in narrative, I would argue, is still very much with us. Even if, you know, some people have pushed back against the specific notions of the book, for example, I think there's still very much this expectation. Many of the women that I talk to for my research, first time mothers or those who are just starting out in their careers, still very much feel this pressure to have it all, to try to be it all, to chase every opportunity, and also to set an example for other women as well, to be that leader in the workforce while also being that Pinterest perfect mom at home. If anything, it feels like the only narrative that is threatening to unseat Lean In at this point is maybe the trad wife narrative in part because of how unsustainable it is to lean in especially over the long term. And I think that is part of where the I talk a little bit about in my book about how some young women are leaning into the idea of being a housewife instead of leaning in at work in part because they realize that it is so unsustainable.

“向前一步”所做的其中一件事，就是深深贬低了照护工作的价值，忽视了它对家庭和社区的价值，甚至忽视了我们许多人从照护工作中获得的快乐，尤其是当我们有时间和精力把它做好的时候。所以我认为，我们其实需要回到一个比“向前一步”更早的叙事，也就是20世纪60年代和70年代女权主义者提出的叙事，后来被企业界在“向前一步”这类信息中收编了。举个例子，黑人女性主义作家和活动家贝尔·胡克斯一直是“向前一步”信息的激烈批评者，她在这方面有大量著作。2013年，她写了一篇批评“向前一步”的文章，说桑德伯格把女性缺乏毅力视为问题，而不是系统性不平等。

And they see one of the things that Lean In did was to deeply devalue the work of care and to ignore both the value that that brings to families and communities and even the joy that many of us can get from doing that care work, particularly when we have the time and the energy to do it well. And so I think if anything, what we need is to go back to an older narrative that has actually been around even longer than Lean In, is essentially the one that feminists gave us in the 1960s and 1970s and that really got co opted by sort of the corporate world when it came to messages like Lean In. Mean to give an example, I mean Black feminist writer and activist Bell Hooks was one of the sort of vocal critics of the Lean In message drawing on her long body of work on these topics. And she wrote a critique in 2013 of Lean In. She said Sandberg sees women's lack of perseverance as more of a problem than systemic inequality.

她实际上利用自己的种族和阶级权力与特权，推广一种狭隘的女权主义定义，这种定义掩盖并破坏了愿景派女权主义的关切。她本质上是在反对这种认为我们应该单独行动的观念。我自己的研究目标之一也是帮助女性摆脱“煤气灯”效应，告诉她们，内疚和压力并不是女性身份或母亲身份的常态或必要部分。我们其实可以帮助女性看到，她们被要求在缺乏支持的社会里充当社会安全网。

And she effectively uses her race and class power and privilege to promote a narrow definition of feminism that obscures and undermines visionist feminist concerns. And essentially, she's pushing back against this notion that we should try to do this so individually. And really that's part of what my goal is to do with my own research too, to help un gaslight women. To tell women that guilt and stress are not normal or necessary parts of womanhood or parts of motherhood. I mean, essentially we can help women to see that they have been tasked with serving as a social safety net in a society that has forced them to make do without the support that they need.

我希望我能展示，女性自助文化尤其让我们误以为，如果我们难以应付一切，那一定是因为我们做了错误的选择，因为我们没有“向前一步”，没有“洗脸”，没有“走出自己的脑袋”，没有“放下那些破事”——举几本其他畅销书的标题为例。而现实是，我们被推着去做这些工作，我们被超时工作、低薪做别人为他们自己利益设计的项目，而不是为了我们。所以我认为，这正是20世纪60年代和70年代女权运动的核心信息之一：我们必须集体团结，而不是单打独斗。我们要认识到，我们最强大的时候是我们一起努力，为最边缘化的群体奋斗，而不是仅仅试图个人尽可能往上爬，因为那很容易陷入分裂和幻觉，这些正是设计来让我们疲于奔命，而不是看到更强有力的政策投资其实可以更好地支持我们所有人。

And my hope is that I can show them how women's self help culture in particular kind of deludes us into thinking that if we're struggling to manage it all, that it must be because we made the wrong choices, because we didn't lean in, didn't wash our face, didn't get out of our own heads, didn't let that shit go to use some other popular book titles for example. And I mean in reality it's that we are being pushed into doing this work, that we are being kind of worked over time and underpaid on projects that other people have designed for their own gain and certainly not for ours. And so I think this is a place where one of the core messages of the feminist movements of the 1960s and 70s is that we really have to hold it together collectively and not It's on our about recognizing that we are strongest when we work together and we are strongest when we fight for those who are most marginalized among us as opposed to trying to just individually get ahead as far as we can because that's an easy way to fall into the delusions and divisions that are designed to keep us scrambling as opposed to seeing how investments in stronger policies, for example, could better support us all.

你刚才说的核心，是承认确实存在系统性的不平等和不公正，对吧？

And at the heart of what you just said is the acceptance that there are indeed systemic inequalities and inequities. Right?

是的，确实如此。我认为这些在讨论中常常被忽视，因为在我们的DIY社会里，所有人都有动机把尽可能多的风险和责任推给别人。对男性来说，他们通常处于经济上最有利的位置，可以利用更高的薪水、更大的头衔，让身边的女性承担更多照护工作，说服妻子、行政助理、同事做更多不赚钱的工作，好让他们自己专注于最有利可图的工作。而对女性来说，那些处于最特权地位的人也可以通过把照护工作推给系统性边缘化的女性来卸责，这些女性往往别无选择，只能做低薪的育儿、家庭护理、餐饮服务、保洁等工作。

Yes. Very much so. And I think those often get overlooked in these conversations in the sense that in our DIY society, all of us have an incentive to push as much risk and responsibility for care as possible onto someone else downstream. And for men, they're often economically in the most privileged positions to be able to do this, to leverage their higher salaries, know, their bigger titles, to get the women around them to do more of that work of care, to persuade their wives, to persuade their administrative assistants, to persuade their colleagues and coworkers to do more of that work that isn't as economically profitable so that they can focus on doing that most profitable work themselves. Now for women, those who are in the most privileged positions can offload some of that work also by pushing it onto oftentimes women from systematically marginalized groups who have very little choice but to do the underpaid work of childcare, of home healthcare, of food service, of house cleaning.

当然，我们永远无法外包所有的照护责任，后端管理也需要大量精力。但这制造了一种道德陷阱：对个别相对特权的女性来说，向上爬往往意味着剥削他人。

Though of course we can never outsource all of the care responsibilities, it often takes a great deal of management on the back end as well. But this creates a sort of morality trap in the sense that oftentimes getting ahead for individual relatively privileged women means exploiting someone else.

杰西卡，你谈到照护的艰难工作——育儿、家庭照护—— routinely 被推给女性。我想知道你自己是怎么处理的。你有孩子，对吧？

So you've talked, Jessica, about how the the really hard work of care, childcare, family care gets pushed onto women routinely. I wonder how you deal with it in your own life. You have kids. Right?

我有。我有一个10岁和一个7岁的孩子，我觉得这很大程度上取决于我能获得的支持程度，当然也取决于我丈夫能提供的支持程度，考虑到他当时的工作状况。我的大女儿出生时，我们住在印第安纳州，那时我丈夫刚开始一份新工作，我还是一名相对较新的助理教授，我有带薪产假，但我丈夫没有。所以我独自在家陪女儿度过了将近六个月。

I do. I have a 10 year old and a seven year old and I think it has varied very much depending on the support level that I've been able to access and certainly the level of support that my husband has been able to provide given his work situation as well. I mean, when my oldest daughter was born, we were living in Indiana and at the time my husband had just started a new job. I was a relatively new assistant professor and I had access to paid leave, to paid family leave, my husband didn't. And so I ended up home with my daughter for the first almost six months.

后来，当我必须回去教书时，我们希望能把她送进托儿所。但像很多人一样，我们遇到了托儿危机——我们能找到的第一个全日制托儿所名额，要等到我女儿满一岁才有。所以那个学期我回去教书时，只能靠几个大学生每周看几小时孩子，我一边教书、一边努力完成我的第一本书、做研究，其实什么都没做成。我当时担心拿不到终身教职，担心保不住工作。

And then what ended up happening though is we hoped to get her into childcare when I had to go back to teaching. But like many people, we ran into a sort of childcare crisis in the sense that the first spot that we could find for full time childcare wasn't open until my daughter was a year old. So I spent that first semester back teaching cobbling together a few hours a week of childcare from college students who would watch my daughter while I was teaching and trying to finish my first book, trying to do my research and really nothing got done. I mean, I was worried I wouldn't get tenure. I was worried I wouldn't be able to keep my job.

我也不确定我们的关系会怎样，因为那时一切都不平等、压力巨大。我记得有一次我累到在卧室里摔浴室的推拉门，结果把手指夹掉两片指甲，就因为当时太累、压力太大。那几年真的很艰难。后来孩子们能进全日制托儿所后情况才好转；等到老二出生时，我丈夫有六周带薪育儿假，天壤之别。但即使对我们这些相对有特权的人来说，那段日子也很难熬。

I wasn't sure how things would go with my relationship because things were so unequal and stressful at the time. I remember there was one point where I was so exhausted that I slammed my bathroom door in my bedroom and it's like a pocket door and I managed to slam my fingers in the process and lost two fingernails because I was just so exhausted and stressed out during those early years. So it was not an easy time. And certainly things got better when I was able to get my kids into full time childcare. And certainly when my husband was in a position by the time our second kid was born, he had access to six weeks of paid family leave and it made a world of difference, but it was hard, in terms of navigating those times, even for those of us who are relatively privileged in the process.

杰西卡，我总把雇主当成潜在解决方案，是不是太天真了？我想的是 wellness 福利，或者哪怕只是把育儿假去性别化——父母双方同长，或者托育补贴、备用托育账户，让员工能预约临时保姆并只需付共付额。HR 圈里确实有些做法。你觉得这能成气候吗？

Jessica, I keep coming back to the employer as a potential solution. Do you think that's naive of me? I I think about wellness benefits or even the idea as simple as making parental leave nongendered, same amount of time for either parent or care subsidies or backup care, you know, accounts where they can book a backup babysitter and pay with a co pay. Some of this stuff is out there in the HR world. Do you think it's going to go anywhere?

我觉得答案分两层：一方面，雇主确实可以、也应该采取措施减轻照护者负担，这些投入在平衡全职工作与照护责任方面能起很大作用，比如医保、托育支持、灵活办公政策等。可同时，我们得小心，别把解决这个问题的责任全推给雇主，尤其不能指望他们独自搞定。我们知道，一旦由雇主决定，就像医保一样，好处往往 disproportionately 流向最 privileged 的员工，因为他们有能力和筹码去争取更好的福利——带薪产假、托育补贴、体面退休金等都如此。

I think there's there's two parts to this answer here in the sense that, yes, there are things that employers can be doing and should be doing to make life easier for caregivers and that those kinds of investments can go a long way in making life easier. Things like access to healthcare, access to support with childcare, to access to support with flexible work policies, that these can make a difference and can make life easier when it comes to the ability to combine full time paid work and caregiving responsibilities. At the same time, I think we have to be careful about trusting employers to be the ones to solve this problem, particularly on their own. What we know for example is that when it's up to employers, like with things like healthcare, oftentimes the benefits of that kind of a system go disproportionately to the most privileged workers in our economy. In part because they're the ones who have the power and the privilege to demand better benefits when it comes to healthcare, when it comes to which workers have access to paid family leave, when it comes to which workers have access to childcare benefits or access to decent retirement benefits.

而那些最不稳定、 disproportionately 女性尤其是有色人种女性的劳动者，往往最得不到这些福利。所以，我们不能天真地把雇主当成能独自解决问题的角色。就算雇主真心想给福利，利润压力也会让他们难以为员工提供真正健康、幸福、高效生活所需的支持。这正是政策制定者可以介入、帮雇主卸担的地方。

That those are disproportionately the most privileged workers in our economy. And that it's the workers who are the most precarious, who are disproportionately women and especially women of color in our society are the ones who are often most disadvantaged when it comes to access to those kinds of benefits. And so I think we have to be wary of treating employers as capable of solving this problem on their own. And I think we have to recognize that that's a function of the fact that even well meaning employers, ones who want to put in place those benefits for their workers, face profit pressures that often discourage them from giving workers the support that they really need to live healthy, happy and productive lives. And this is a place where policymakers can step in to essentially help take the burden off of employers.

我们知道，其他国家已证明，一套让人们有尊严生活、获得经济机会、可持续地共同承担照护责任的政策——既保障人们的福祉、时间、精力和教育以投入劳动力，又通过带薪假、带薪休假、甚至35小时或四天工作周等制度，防止工作过度侵占生活——不仅能改善健康和心理状态、避免倦怠，还能提升生产力，最终让员工表现更出色。所以我们得认真思考：这套体系是否行得通？把雇主当唯一解是否对头？

We know that other countries have shown that policies and things that allow people to live with dignity, to access economic opportunities and to contribute equitably and sustainably to a shared project of care, both allowing people to have the well-being and the time and the energy and the education to contribute to the workforce, but then also having the protection from paid work to keep it from demanding so much of our time through access to things like paid leave and paid vacation time. And even things like thirty five hour work weeks or four day work weeks. That that balance of policies can leave people not only better off in a sort of health sense or a mental well-being sense, can avoid burnout, but can also lead to better productivity, can make workers more successful in their jobs in the end. And so this is a place where we need to think critically about is this system working and is this emphasis on employers as the only solution the right way to go?

天哪，我想把这段话印成一张大海报。因为我们谈医保时就有意思——《 maternal stress project 》几个月前在《纽约时报》有篇文章说：托育就是医保。别再把它叫成社会服务或私事要自己去解决，它就是医保。当女性因其不稳定、不持续而焦虑——甚至疫情后仍不持续，或者像你说的在排队等位——那种压力可以持续多年。

Man, I want to put all that on a very large poster Because it's so interesting when we talk about health care. I mean, there was a piece from the maternal stress project several months ago in the New York Times that said child care is health care. Let's quit calling it a social service or even a personal thing to solve. It is health care. And when women are stressed by the precarity of it and the inconsistency of it, even coming back from COVID, it's not consistent, or you're on a waiting list like you said, Jessica.

我的意思是，那种压力可以持续好几年。

I mean, that stress can last for years.

正因如此，我觉得真正该推动的是跳出雇主框架，转向普惠政策。比如，如果有全民医保，雇主就不必为抢人而操心医保；如果有全民可负担托育，雇主也不必担心“员工因社区没托育而住不起”。这些都可以系统性解决——二战期间我们就曾建立过国家公立可负担托育。

And this is a place where I would say really the push could and should be to move away from employers and to say how can we make these universal policies instead in ways that you know things like healthcare. If we had universal healthcare that wouldn't have to be something that employers worry about when it comes to competing for workers. If we had universal affordable childcare, that again wouldn't have to be something that employers had to worry about when it came to figuring out can employees afford to live in my community because there's no childcare here. And so these are things that we can solve systemically. With childcare, we had national childcare, national public affordable childcare during World War II.

我们就是这样让母亲们进入职场，成为“铆工罗西”的。我们已经证明这在这里是可行的。然而，我们却在一定程度上拆除了那项政策，部分原因是我们不想为扩大和长期维持该体系而支付更高的税收。所以我认为，我们已经证明，这类基于照护的服务在普及时最为有效。而其中的讽刺之一是，当这些福利是普及时，使用它们的污名反而更少。

And this is how we got mothers to enter the workforce to be the Rosie the Riveters. We've proven that it's possible here. And yet we dismantled that policy in part because we didn't want to have to pay the higher taxes that would have been needed to expand and maintain that system over time. And so I think this is a place where we have proven that these kinds of care based services are most effective when they are universal. And one of the ironies of that too is that when these kinds of benefits are universal, there's less stigma in using them.

也就是说，现在我们知道托育对女性有益，但女性在使用托育时仍会感到内疚，部分原因是我们把托育视为给女性的福利，而不是同时也给孩子和社会的福利。我们知道，孩子在接受托育时在发育、认知、社交方面都能极大受益，而且父母压力更小，也能提供更高质量的养育。然而我们仍然维持这些污名，我在书中谈到，长期以来一直有人制造对托育的恐惧，试图说服母亲孩子跟托育提供者在一起不安全。但我认为，现实是绝大多数孩子在这种情况下，比跟一个压力山大、独自在家的父母在一起要好得多。因此，对这种照护的投资可以帮助去污名化，并让它对所有人都更可持续。

In the sense that right now, yes, childcare we know is great for women, but women also feel guilty using child care in part because we treat it as a benefit for women and not also as a benefit for kids and for society. We know that kids benefit tremendously from access to childcare when it comes to developmental benefits, the cognitive benefits, the social benefits and the benefits of having less stressed out parents in terms of the quality of parenting that they can provide. And yet we maintain these stigmas and I talk in the book about how there's a long history of fear mongering around childcare, trying to persuade mothers that kids aren't safe with childcare providers. But I think the reality is that the vast majority of kids in these situations are better off than they could be with a much more stressed out parent at home. And so this is a situation where investments in that kind of care can help destigmatize it and can help it be more sustainable for all.

我觉得有必要指出，很多人不是为公司工作，而是为自己工作。嗯哼。所以这正说明了杰西卡你说的那种普遍照护政策的必要性。但我们讨论的照护不仅仅是针对孩子的。

And I think it's important to point out that a lot of people don't work for companies. They work for themselves. Mhmm. So that argues for the universal care policies that you're you're talking about, Jessica. But we're we're talking about care not just for children.

我们还讨论对父母、对无法自理的亲属的照护。马蒂，你照顾过你的未婚妻，也照顾过你的母亲。杰西卡，你会推荐哪些政策来全方位地支持照护者？

We're talking about care for parents, for relatives who cannot take care of themselves. Marty, you've cared for your for your fiance. You've cared for your mother. What policies, Jessica, would you recommend to take care of caregivers all the way around?

是的。这是另一个公共照护投资可以发挥作用的领域，确保各种照护服务可得，无论是托育服务、居家健康服务、养老院设施，还是课后托管等等。当我们在普遍层面投资这些政策，并给予充足资金时，我们不仅能确保人们获得所需的高质量照护，也能让照护工作本身可持续。我们有例子，比如华盛顿州有WA Cares项目，为全州每个人建立公共资助的长期护理保险；或者明尼苏达州投资普及可负担托育，把负担从单个家庭和雇主身上卸下来。

Yeah. And this is another place where where public investments in care can help to make sure that the kinds of care services are available, whether they're childcare services, whether they're home healthcare services, whether they are nursing home care facilities, whether they are after school care for kids and things along those lines. When we invest in those kinds of policies at a universal level and when we put a decent level of funding behind them, we can ensure that they provide not only the high quality of care that people need, but also that the work of caregiving is sustainable. And we have examples, things like Washington State has the WA Cares program, which is putting in place publicly funded long term care insurance for everyone within the state. Or places like Minnesota that have invested in universal affordable childcare to take the burden off of individual families and individual employers.

杰西卡，既然这些政策还没完全落地，女性该如何为将来不可预测的照护责任做准备？

Jessica, given that those policies aren't entirely available, how do women prepare themselves for the caregiving that they're gonna be called on to do? It's so unpredictable.

是的。我在工作中努力做的一件事就是帮女性“解除煤气灯”，让她们准备好面对这样一个现实：我们社会中的信息——我谈到那些用来欺骗美国人、让我们相信不需要社会安全网的迷思——通过种族、阶级、性别、政治、宗教把我们分裂，使我们只关注自身，而不是团结起来要求能够更好支持我们所有人的安全网。我认为这里要帮助女性不要自责，要认识到这是一个对她们不利的体系，同时也要保持希望，因为前面的信息并不特别鼓舞人心。要记住我们团结起来才最强大，我们可以把有限的精力用来思考：我周围还有哪些女性？我们怎样能够集体组织，向雇主、社区、政策制定者要求更好的政策和支持？

Yeah. I mean, one of the things I try to do with my work is is to ungaslight women, to essentially help to prepare them for this idea that the messaging in our society I talk about the sort of myths that we use to delude Americans into believing that we don't need a social safety net and to keep us divided by race and class and gender and politics and religion in ways that kind of keep us thinking about ourselves as opposed to coming together to demand the kind of safety net that could better support us all. And I think this is a place where helping women to not blame themselves, to recognize that this is a system that is stacked against them, but also to help them stay hopeful because that's not a particularly hopeful message. And to remember that we are strongest together and that this is a place where we can be using the energy that we do have to say, okay, who are the other women around me? And how can we be collectively organizing in ways that can demand better policies, better support from our employers, from our communities, from our policy makers?

因为本质上，单个女性可以在一定程度上靠自己撑住。但这会强化我在研究中谈到的观念：所谓“好选择”可以拯救女性。只要女性选对职业道路、找到合适伴侣、住在合适社区，就能免受这些期望的影响，不会成为默认照护者，也不会面对这些不平等。现实是，即便像马蒂这样做出好选择，也未必总能拯救女性。而且那些“好选择”往往还需要大量特权才能实现。

Because essentially, I mean, individual women can to some extent hold it together on their own. But what that risks enforcing is this idea that I talk about in some of my research that kind of good choices can save women. That if women just pursue the right career path or find the right partner or live in the right community, that they will be able to protect themselves from falling into these kinds of expectations, from becoming the default caregiver or from having to face these kinds of inequalities. When the reality is that even as in Marty's case, good choices can't necessarily always save women. And oftentimes those kinds of good choices also require a great deal of privilege to make.

所以我认为，要帮助女性记住，我们身处的体系并非为她们设计，甚至可以说是在与她们作对；要看到，真正需要的是我们团结起来，寻找盟友，为能够更好支持我们所有人的体系而奋斗。

And so I think helping women to remember that we are working in a system that is not designed for us and that if anything is designed against us and to see how really it'll take us coming together and finding allies to be able to fight for the kind of system that would better support us all.

那么马蒂，你现在又回到全职工作了。是的。这个转变怎么样？你是怎么做到的？

So Marty, you are now back at work full time. Yeah. How did that shift go? How did you do it?

说不上好，也说不上坏。让我惊讶的是，真到紧要关头，通常还是我让步。我们给上高中的孩子报了一所离家很远的学校。

It didn't go well, it didn't go badly. It just it's amazing to me how still when push comes to shove, I'm the one typically who accommodates. We enrolled our high schooler in a school that's quite far away from our home.

嗯。

Mhmm.

开车路程很长，还要穿城，路上有施工、堵车。有些日子我真的不想在工作的两头跑这趟。甚至不该说两头，而是工作日的三分之一和三分之二处，因为学校时间当然比工作短。可同时，我发现现在上班的地方，大家会说：行，没问题。

It's a long drive, and it's through the city, and there's construction and traffic jams, and there are days where I would really rather not do that at both ends of my work day. And I shouldn't even say ends. At the middle third and second third of my work day because school is, of course, shorter than than work. And at the same time, I find that where I work now, people are willing to say, okay. That's fine.

去吧，准时到就行，把学生按时接回家。我得及时把他们送回家，好让他们能上Zoom的另一节课。所以我就把时间掰开用。于是昨晚就成了：孩子上Zoom网课那阵，我在家又干了九十分钟。

Go, you know, be there at the right time. Get your student home. I I I get them home in a timely way so they can get on another class on Zoom. And so I juggle the time. And so last night, that looked like I worked, you know, ninety minutes at home in the evening while my kiddo was on their Zoom class.

今天早上，我送小的上校车之前，又干了六十分钟。所以确实灵活——大家信我能把活干完，不管在哪儿、啥时候、怎么干；但工作量一点没少。孩子没别的交通方式，学校也不让他在教学楼里上Zoom网课并一直待到晚上。其实今早我还说：你们学校真该在那儿设个联合办公间。要是我能送你、放下、开完所有会、再接你走，咱们能省一个半小时。

And this morning, I worked sixty in the morning before I got the youngest on the bus. So there is flexibility in the sense of I'm being trusted to get the work done where and when and how I can do it, but there is no reduced workload. There is no transportation option for my child or even letting my child take their Zoom class at the high school building and stay there all evening, those kinds of things. And in fact, I said this morning, I said, your school really needs a coworking office right there. If I could drive you, drop you, take all my calls, pick you up, and leave, we'd be, you know, an hour and a half ahead.

所以对我来说，把一些东西集中在一起，让人们可以在同一个地方学习、工作、吃饭、办理各种事务，这个想法在疫情之后并没有像我期望的那样流行起来。我知道很多社区并不是为此而建的，它们根本没有被规划成可以把这些功能放在一起。但当人们不得不为了每件事都通勤时，他们的生活真的被割裂了。

So I think to me, that idea of colocating some things and and making it possible for people to study and work and eat and get services done all in the same place. It didn't really take off after the pandemic like I thought hoped it would. And I know there's a lot of neighborhoods that aren't built for that. They just are not set up to to have those kinds of things together. But it really splits people's lives up when they have to, you know, commute to everything.

而且十有八九，是妈妈们在接送队伍里。

And more often than not, it's the moms in the drop off line.

这简直让人精疲力竭。所以，杰西卡，我想知道，在听到玛蒂现在每天面对的情况后，你是否能提供些什么？有没有一些背景信息？有没有能帮上她的建议？

And it's utterly exhausting. So, Jessica, I wonder, having heard what Marty's dealing with now every day, if there's anything you can offer her. Is there context? Is there advice that would help her out here?

我的意思是，我觉得这又是一个我不太愿意把责任推给个人的地方，部分原因是我们长期以来被灌输的信息就是：只要你做出这些正确的选择，就能找到某个七步计划让你摆脱压力。但不幸的是，我能提供的某种程度上是安慰：你并不孤单，这种挣扎不是你一个人的，我们面对的是一个并不打算帮助我们、而是打算榨取我们、尽可能多地拿走我们的一切、只留给我们勉强生存而非蓬勃发展的系统。这就是我们要对抗的。而也许能给我、也能给玛蒂带来希望的是，我觉得我们正处于一个政治和社会上的时刻，人们越来越认识到这些挑战，也越来越认识到需要对我们所面临的照护危机采取行动。因为我觉得我们已经到了一个临界点，这已变得极度不可持续，这不仅仅影响那些最脆弱的人，就连拥有极高特权的人也在为日复一日地过下去而挣扎。

I mean, I think this is again a place where I'm hesitant to put the onus of responsibility onto individuals in part because that's the message that we've been sold so long is, you know, if you just make these right choices, you could find some seven step plan that will get you out of the stress. And I think, unfortunately what I can offer is solace to some extent in the sense that you're not alone in this kind of struggle, that this is a system that is not designed to help us, that is designed to extract from us and to get as much from us as possible while leaving as little behind as is necessary to survive but not necessarily thrive. And this is what we're up against. And I think what maybe does give me hope and maybe can offer Marty some hope is that I think we are at a moment kind of politically and socially where there is growing recognition of these challenges and growing recognition of the need to do something about the care crisis that we are facing. Because I think we've reached a tipping point where it has become deeply unsustainable, where this is not just affecting those who are in the most precarious position but where even those with extremely high levels of privilege are struggling to make it through day to day.

我认为这让我们看到了这种模式的不可持续性，我希望这能推动政策变革，既在雇主个体层面，也在更广泛的社会层面。我们看到一些州正在朝这个方向努力，我希望能借此提供一个试验场，证明这些变革可以在更大范围内实施，让我们最终能够真正获得我们自身所需的照护，以及照顾他人所需的支持，从而更好地协调我们生活的各个部分，而不是追求那种可能过于 elusive 的平衡。

And I think this has shown us how unsustainable this is and I'm hoping that this will lead to policy momentum to change both at the individual level of employers but also at the broader societal level. And we're seeing some states move in that direction which I'm hoping will provide a testing ground to show that these kinds of changes can be made at a broader level, to put us in a place where we're actually able to get the care that we need for ourselves and the support that we need to care for others and to have that better negotiation of the parts of our lives as opposed to maybe the balance that might be too elusive to get.

是的。我们还有很长的路要走，但如果合适的人能听到这个信息、听到这种需求，就有希望。确实如此。好吧，我想感谢你们两位，Marty，感谢分享你的故事，Jessica，感谢分享你所有的见解和智慧。

Yep. We've got a we've got a long way to go, but but there's hope if the right people can hear the message and hear the need. Indeed. Indeed. Well, I wanna thank you both, Marty, for sharing your story and Jessica for sharing all your insight and and wisdom.

真的非常感激。

Really appreciate it.

谢谢你。谢谢你。

Thank you. Thank you.

好了，Amy。你听到了我们的对话。什么让你印象深刻？

Alright, Amy. You you heard our conversation. What struck you?

我的意思是，有很多事情。显然，当然，对Marty和她所经历的一切深感同情。你不会希望最坏的敌人也经历那样的一年。我认为，作为一个女人，我能感同身受，我是许多人生活中维持运转的那个人，比如孩子得了不明疾病，我立刻就能想到与医生的四次对话、等待回电、从会议中抽身，以及Marty不得不处理的纯粹的后勤数量，更别提情感上的负担，这一切都非常强烈。

I mean, so many things. Obviously, of course, deep empathy for Marty and what she went through. You wouldn't wish a year like that on your worst enemy. And I think as as a woman who relates to being the person in many people's lives who keeps things running, like a kid having an unclear illness, I just could immediately think of the four conversations that involved with the doctor and waiting for the callback and stepping out of a meeting and the sheer number of logistics that Marty has had to deal with, never mind the emotional content, is just so intense.

对我来说，我真正产生共鸣的是这个想法：如果一个球掉了，所有的球都会掉。

For me, what I really what I really chimed with was this idea that if one ball drops, they're all gonna drop.

你知道吗？我一直在想，听着这段对话时，有多少女性每天都在弯曲时间，只为挤出几个小时来完成工作？再加上这些照顾责任，无论是狗、孩子、父母、丈夫。配偶。对。

You know? And that's I kept thinking as I was listening to the conversation, how many women are bending time every day just to find the hours to do their job? And you add in these caretaking responsibilities, whether it's for dogs, children, parents, husbands. Spouses. Right.

是啊，比如植物。我们可以一会儿再谈植物。但所有这些照顾工作都被忽视了，而它本应隐藏在我们所做的其他事情的缝隙里。

Yeah. Like plants. You know, we can talk about the plants in a moment. But, like, all of this caretaking is goes unacknowledged, and it's supposed to be it's supposed to be in the curves of the rest of the things that we do.

嗯，而且，我的意思是，Marty所面对的一切确实都是紧急的。

Well and, I mean, everything Marty was dealing with was legitimately urgent.

是的。也许除了植物。

Yep. Except maybe the plants.

也许是植物。没错。

Maybe the plants. Exactly.

我得说，我真的大声说过，马蒂，让那些植物枯死吧。

And I have to say, I've literally said out loud, Marty, let the plants die.

植物杀手。

Plant murderer.

是的。但你知道吗？马蒂可能爱那些植物。谁在乎？别再评判她选择保留哪些球了，那是她的选择。

Yes. But you know what? Marty probably loves those plants. Who care? Like, stop judging which balls she's choosing to That's keep in the her choice.

我认为信息不是，嘿，女人们，别再追求完美了。放下一些球。而是我们如何帮助建立一个社会，在那里感觉不像每个人都在搭纸牌屋。嗯哼。我其实有一个挺极端的例子，我认识的一个女人，我会小心保护她的隐私。

And I think the message is not, hey, women, let's stop our perfectionism. Let's drop some of the balls. It's how do we help build a society where there it doesn't feel like everyone's building a house of cards. Mhmm. I I actually have this pretty extreme example, this woman I know, and I'll be careful to preserve her privacy.

所以她的名字在

So her name's in

节目备注里。

the show notes.

她的LinkedIn资料里。好吧。备注。但她已婚。她和丈夫做同样的工作。

Her name in LinkedIn profile. Okay. Notes. But she's married. She and her husband have the same job.

他们有两个年幼的孩子。我们每隔几年见一次。上次见面时，我问她，你们怎么应付的？她说，我们没在应付。我拒绝接受来自丈夫或社会的任何期待。

They have two young kids. And she and I see each other every few years. And the last time I saw her, was like, how are you managing? And she said, we're not. Like, I just refuse to accept any expectation from my husband or from society.

我们家一团糟。孩子们没有干净衣服。我们经常拿饼干凑合当晚餐。学校得追着我们签每一份同意书。她说，我敢肯定我工作和生活中的人都觉得我们一团糟，但我拒绝走完美主义那条路。

Our house is a mess. Our kids don't have clean clothes. Oftentimes, we're hobbling together crackers for dinner. The school has to chase us down for every permission slip. She's like, I'm sure everyone at my work and in my life thinks we're a disaster, but I refuse to do the perfectionist way.

我当时就想，你不追求完美的时候都在干嘛？她说，我在看书啊。她有空读小说。

And and I'm like, what are you doing with all the time when you're not being perfect? She's like, I'm reading. She gets to read novels.

哇哦。

Oh, wow.

她来自一个相当非传统的家庭，那个家庭挑战了很多社会期待。所以我觉得她对这条路还算习惯，但她也意识到，对那些已经接受社会期待的外人来说，这看起来简直疯了。每次我给哈珀签什么文件或者出席什么活动，我都会想，我朋友可没做这些。

And she comes from a pretty unconventional family that's challenged a lot of of society's expectations. So I think this is a path she's slightly comfortable with, but she recognizes that to outsiders who have bought into society's expectations that it looks bonkers. I mean, I think every time I've signed something for Harper or I, like, show up for something, I think, oh, my friend is not doing any of that.

我觉得你那位欧洲朋友身上有很多值得学习的地方。是啊。

I think there's a lot to be learned from your European friend. Yeah.

我喜欢马蒂随口提议学校设个联合办公空间。哦，我喜欢

I loved Marty's sort of offhand suggestion that the school have a coworking space. Oh, I like

这个主意。

that idea.

我当时就觉得，这太妙了，因为这恰好是杰西卡所讲一切的绝佳隐喻，对吧？我们怎样才能让整个系统以集体的方式对我们大家都更轻松一点？我要带走的作业之一——也希望部分听众一起——就是读杰西卡的书，真正理解她所说的“DIY社会”是怎么形成的。

I was like, this is brilliant actually because and it was such a good metaphor for everything Jessica was talking about. Right? How do we make the system just easier on all of us in a collective way? And one piece of homework I'm taking, and I think I hope some of our listeners will as well, is to read Jessica's book. And and really understand what she calls this DIY society, how it's come to to exist.

而且她在书里给出了解决方案，政策层面的解决方案，告诉我们如何改变现状。

And I mean, she has solutions in there, policy level solutions of how we can change it.

节目简介里会放杰西卡那本书的链接。

And the link to Jessica's book will actually be in the show notes.

是的。她愿意被大家找到。

Yes. She wants to be found.

是的。对。对。节目就到这里。我是艾米·加洛。

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo.

我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。《哈佛商业评论》定期发布关于平衡工作与家庭的文章。我们最近发表的一篇精彩综述叫做《你的员工也是照护者——这样支持他们》。

And I'm Amy Bernstein. HBR regularly publishes articles with advice for managing work and family. One we recently published is a superb roundup called your employees are also caregivers. Here's how to support them.

“女性网络”的编辑与制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍赫、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·埃克哈特、埃里卡·特拉克勒、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。罗宾·摩尔创作了本节目的主题音乐。

Women Network's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.

欢迎通过电子邮件 women@workathbr.org 与我们联系。

Get in touch with us by emailing women@workathbr.org.