如何管理：从中层晋升至高层

您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。无论你多么有抱负、多么有才华，从中层管理往上晋升往往进展缓慢，而且原因并不在你掌控之中。比如，你想要的高级职位上的人已经稳坐多年，而且可能永远不走；又或者公司没有业务需求，也没有预算把你的职位和薪资从“高级”升到“高管”。当你已经准备好承担更多，尤其是当你已经等待、努力了似乎很久之后，无限期地卡在中间的前景令人窒息。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. No matter how ambitious and talented you are, rising up and out of mid level management can be slow going for reasons beyond your control. Like, when the person who's in the higher level position you want has been there forever and might stay there forever, or when the company doesn't have a business need or the budget to upgrade your job title and salary from senior to executive. When you're ready to take on more and especially when you've been waiting and trying for what seems like a very long time, the prospect of remaining stuck in the middle indefinitely is suffocating.

我的三位嘉宾都曾身处这种境地。她们已经成功脱身，现在来到这里为你指引方向、激发灵感并给予安慰。其中两位是首席运营官——梅根·巴赫和劳伦·雷耶斯。梅根从保险行业一路晋升，几年前转入科技领域。

My three guests have been there. They've gotten themselves out of there, and now they're here to direct, inspire, and reassure you. Two of them are COOs, Megan Bach and Lauren Reyes. Megan rose up through the insurance industry and switched to tech a few years ago.

我觉得在早期，我也许不太会表达自己想做得更多。随着时间推移，我变得越来越直接。

I think in early days, I perhaps wasn't as effective at articulating that I wanted to do more. As more time passed, I got more explicit.

劳伦是在基督教青年会一路晋升上来的。

Lauren rose up the ranks at the YMCA.

我常跟我妈开玩笑说，感觉我申请的每一份工作都不够格，可最后都拿到了。实际上，我是够格的，我具备所需的能力，但总会有那种自我怀疑。

I joke with my mom all the time that I feel like I've been not qualified for every job that I've applied for and gotten. And in actuality, you know, like, I was qualified. I had what it took, but there's always that self doubt.

在成为高管之前，她们的职业都曾陷入停滞，但她们设法重新加速。

Before becoming executives, their careers had stalled, but they managed to find ways to accelerate them again.

走进那场会议之前，我完全不知道自己会说出那些话。

I had no idea prior to walking into that meeting that I was gonna say those things.

当你向另一家机构申请时，他们看到的是今天的你，以及你愿意承诺的潜力，并且

When you apply to another organization, they see you for who you are today and the potential of what you're, willing to sign up for and

并且付诸行动。她们将回顾那些对话、决策和人脉，正是这些让她们的晋升重新启动。在聆听她们的故事和建议之前，我们先认识一下辛西娅·庞。她曾是公设辩护人，后来成为教练，如今为寻求进入高级领导层的女性有色人种提供咨询。辛西娅，我们先从最基本的问题开始。

and do. They'll recount the conversations, decisions, and networking that jump started their advancement. Before we hear their stories and advice, let's start with Cynthia Pong. She used to be a public defender before becoming a coach, and now she advises women of color who are looking to move into positions of senior leadership. Cynthia, let's start with sort of the basic stuff.

当然。在职业生涯中感到“卡住”有多普遍？

Sure. How common is this feeling of being stuck in your career?

哦，这非常普遍。我觉得在各个层级都会遇到。不过我会说，对于正处于职业生涯中期的人来说，会有一种特别的感受。他们处在中层管理，或是总监级别，会同时感到被困住，又有点迷失，不知道下一步该往哪儿走，该做什么。

Oh, it's extremely common. I I feel like I encounter it at all levels. Although I will say that there is a particular set of feelings, I think, that come with folks who are in the middle of their career. So they're mid career, they're in middle management, or they're kind of at a director level. And there's this feeling of both stuckness and also slightly a bit of being lost, not knowing where to go next, not knowing what to do next, that kind of thing.

职业生涯中段到底有什么让它变得如此危险？

What is it about that sort of midsection of the career that makes it treacherous?

哦，这个词用得太好了。我觉得确实有很多潜在的陷阱需要提防，尤其是作为女性。首先，做中层管理者、处于中间位置本身就很难。你常常夹在高层管理和他们的要求之间，同时你的直接下属又对你有诸多期待。所以你既要领导他们，又要向上管理。

Oh, great word for that. Because I do think there are a lot of potential traps that we have to look out for, especially as women. So first of all, being a middle manager, being in a middle position is tough at baseline. You are often caught in the middle between upper management and what they want and your direct reports who are looking to you for certain things and have probably a great deal of expectations as well. So you both have to lead them and you have to manage up.

而且两边的人往往想要不同的东西，他们自己也可能并不清楚到底想要什么。于是就会出现很多沟通失误。坦白说，这常常是份吃力不讨好的工作，Amy，因为你会持续面对来自两边的隐性不满。我发现这对很多女性来说非常挫败，其中还有性别层面的微妙差异。

And oftentimes on both sides, people want different things. And they also may not be clear about what they want either. So there's a lot of miscommunication that can happen. And frankly, often it's a thankless job, Amy, because you face that ongoing background dissatisfaction from both sides. And that is very frustrating for a lot of women, I find, because there's nuances in terms of gender there.

那么这些微妙差异具体是什么？

So what are those nuances exactly?

好的。针对女性的一个刻板印象偏见是，我们被认为应该具有集体意识，被期待把团队、使命、公司永远放在自己前面。再加上我们一生中常常被深度灌输要追求和谐。

Right. So one of the stereotype biases against us as women is that we are communal or we are expected to be communal and to look out for the collective and to put the team, the mission, the company always ahead of ourselves. And combine that with the fact that there's often deep conditioning that we've been subjected to over our lifetimes to seek or want to promote harmony.

嗯。

Mhmm.

也就是所谓的讨好型人格。想象一下这有多令人沮丧：你身处一个本质上就会让两边的人持续对你不满的位置。

So people pleasing, if you will. Imagine how frustrating that is, and you're in a position where inherently, intrinsically, there are gonna be people upset at you from both sides continually.

没错，让你的老板和你管理的团队或直属下属达成一致非常困难。我们来聊聊从庞大的中层管理晋升到高层管理吧。

Right. It's just very hard to make the twain meet your bosses and your direct reports or the teams that you manage. Let's talk about moving from the vast mid management level into senior management.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是什么让这件事对女性来说格外具有挑战性？

What makes that so particularly challenging, especially for women?

对。我总结为三点。第一，它本质上是“数字游戏”。我注意到在某些公司，艾米，它们出于各种原因设了大量中层管理岗位，于是那一层就膨胀得厉害。

Right. I would say it comes down to three things. One, the function of it being a numbers game. What I've noticed at certain companies, Amy, where they have, for whatever reason, kind of created a lot of middle management roles. So there's almost a bloat at that level.

所以你会在中层特别明显地感受到：从个人贡献者升到中层似乎没那么难，可再往上到VP、SVP等级别，职位一下子收紧，跳跃难度大增。因此，从数字概率上我们就不占优势。第二，管道问题——那些抢手的C位角色，有时公司已经让某人“排队”或被培养十年，我们压根不知道，也绝无可能把自己变成那个人或再努力争取。

So that's why you feel it so specifically at the mid level because it feels like less of a jump from individual contributor to middle management. And then from there, it really tightens up, and there's a big jump down in terms of roles at the VP, SVP, etcetera, levels. So one, the numbers are kind of against us in that sense. Two, there's a pipeline issue in the sense that sometimes for these very sought after C suite roles, there's somebody who's been in line, quote unquote, or being groomed for that role for ten years or something that we didn't even know about. And there's absolutely no way we could have made ourselves that person or done anything to advocate harder for ourselves.

第三，职级越高风险越大，性别歧视、种族或其他有意无意的偏见就会放大，女性、尤其有色人种女性，往往得不到像男性那样的“容错”空间。总结起来就是：他们要看你的“过往战绩”而非“潜力”。

The third thing is that the higher you rise up in the organization, the stakes are intrinsically higher. And so that's where gender discrimination, other kinds of racism or bias, conscious or unconscious, may result in women, and especially women of color, not getting the benefit of the doubt as much as men. It's that whole, you have to have the track record versus we see your potential.

我也在想到底人际关系在其中起什么作用。

I also wonder how relationships play into this.

是啊，很高兴你提到这个。我们女性擅长建立关系，却也该更策略地让自己被“关键人物”看见——而这些人不一定是本公司或本组织的。

Yeah. I am so glad you brought that up because I think that is something that sometimes as women as relational and as strong on building relationships as we are, I think we could be a bit more strategic about who we are making ourselves visible to. And that is not always people who are in our same company or organization.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你必须让足够多的“对”的人看见你，他们才会成为你的赞助者或拥护者，在你不在的房间里提你的名字，推荐你获奖或接受高难度机会，为你牵线搭桥——这些才是晋升的关键，而我们有时却把它排在后面。

You have to be visible to enough of the right people so that enough of those people will become your sponsors or champions, say your name in rooms that you're not in, nominate you for awards and stretch opportunities, make key connections for you. Those are the key to advancement, and sometimes we may deprioritize that.

我还觉得特别重要的一点是，许多女性不敢开口要自己想要的东西——你得说出你想升到VP、想进C suite。是的，因为必须让人知道你有野心；同时暗示，如果这次不成——不必明说——传达的信息是：这对我很重要，我不会再耗十年去等。

I also think it's important, particularly for women who don't ask for what they want, to say that they want the promotion to the VP level, to the c suite. Yes. Because you have to let people know that you're ambitious, but you also need to say, if I don't get this. You don't have to say it explicitly, but the message can be, this is important to me, and I'm not gonna stick around for ten more years waiting for it. Correct.

对，这种表态很有力量。但我们之所以做不到，原因很多。我觉得其中一个性别化因素是我们女性对自己的承诺极度负责：如果我说了却没能100%甚至120%兑现，就会非常自责。

Right? That is so powerful. However, there's many reasons why we may feel that we cannot do that. I think one thing that's a gendered thing for us as women is we feel extremely accountable to our word. And it's like, if I say something and I don't follow through to the t 100,000 and early or whatnot, like the over delivering, then, you know, we may take it very personally.

那种极度的自我批评会冒出来。于是它让我们连把某些话说出口都做不到，但这其实非常关键。所以，先找几个你信得过的人，把话大声说给他们听，先练习一下——这样你就能听见自己说出口，过几个月，也许就能对着真正拍板的人说了。

The hyper self criticism can kick in. And so that prevents us from actually even saying certain things out loud, but it's so key. But that's why having people you can trust to practice saying out loud to first, you know, then you can practice saying it, hear yourself saying it, then maybe in a few months you can say it to someone who's a decision maker.

那就当我的教练吧，假设回到二十年前。好，我接到了一个电话。那时我在公司，大概是个中高层经理。嗯。

So be my coach, let's say twenty years ago. Okay. I got a call. I was, you know, in my business, I would have been a senior ish mid level manager at that point. Mhmm.

猎头打电话来说有个主编职位，那可是我一直暗暗想要、却从不敢大声说出口的顶级岗位。我的第一反应是恐惧和不安：他们怎么会要我？不。

And I got a call from a headhunter about an editor in chief job, which would have been the high level job. The one I, you know, the one I secretly wanted but would never have had the courage to say out loud. And I responded with fear and insecurity. My first thought was why would they want me? No.

对吧？于是我就说，不，我觉得我不合适。接着撒谎：我在这儿挺开心的。

Right? Yeah. And and I said, no. I don't I don't think so. And then I lied and said, I'm really happy here.

我能感到心跳加速，脑子里各种声音在尖叫。如果是你，当时会对我说什么？

And I could feel my heart racing. I could feel myself just kind of like, the voices in my head were shouting. What would you have said to me then?

哦，这题真难。首先，我会让你把那些尖叫的声音拆开来：它们到底在说什么？从哪儿来的？把它们写下来或念出来，只要能让它们离开脑袋，你的感觉就会不一样。

Oh, this is this is a tough one. First, I would have talked about, you know, let's unpack what's actually going on with the voices that are screaming in your head. Where are they coming from? Literally, what are they saying? You actually hearing it outside of your head or getting it on paper, whatever is possible, is actually gonna change how you feel about it as well.

这是第一步。不把这些理清楚，我根本不在乎这个主编职位——以后还会有机会。如果不解开这个结，它还会再出现，再次把你卡住。

That's the first set of things. We have to unpack that. And if we don't, I don't even care about this one editor in chief position, right? There will be others. If we don't actually unravel this, it's going to show up again, and it's going to stymie you again.

对。我跟年轻女性或其他女性谈到这种大跨步晋升时，常听到你刚才描述的那种反应。我听出来的是恐惧。我通常告诉她们：当你用恐惧回应、想逃跑时，你欠自己一点思考的空间。

Yeah. So I hear fear when I talk to young younger women or other women who are being offered that great leap of a promotion in some form, I often hear what you just described. And to me, it sounds like fear. And what I find myself saying is when you feel yourself responding with fear, that flight kind of response, what you owe yourself is a little space to think.

没错。

Yes.

当下你可以说：我需要点时间考虑，给我二十四小时。然后去找你信任的人聊聊。

And what you say in the moment is, I need a little time to think about this. Give me twenty four hours. Yeah. Whatever. And then go talk to people you trust.

是的。就像你说的，你随时可以按下暂停键。当我们感到匆忙时，最容易犯错。所以不要让自己被虚假的时间表裹挟。你直接回去找那个人，找那个猎头。

Yes. Just like you said, you can always hit pause. When we feel rushed, that's when we make the most mistakes. So do not be complicit in false timelines on yourself. You go right back to the person, to the headhunter.

非常感谢您的询问。我会再联系您。

Thank you so much for your inquiry. I will get back to you.

这真的非常有用。所以如果你真的想在公司里晋升，嗯，必须有一个职位让你升上去，对吧？

That's really, really useful. So if you really wanna move up at your company Mhmm. There has to be a role for you to move into. Right?

哦，好的，我喜欢这个问题。是的。我觉得大家默认的前提是，那个要晋升的职位必须已经存在。就像，它必须早就有了。

Oh, okay. I love this. Yes. And I feel like the underlying assumption is that the role to move into has to preexist. Like, it has to exist already.

所以，嗯，这个假设有问题吗？

So okay. Is that a bad assumption?

也许有，也许没有。我觉得总有机会的空间。为什么不提议一个新职位呢？你知道，这正是展现主动性和真正领导力的一部分，老实说，我认为我们女性需要展示出来，而不是光说。嗯。

Maybe, maybe not. I think there's always room for opportunity. Why not propose a new role? You know, this is part of that showing initiative and actual leadership, honestly, that I think is important for us to demonstrate and show rather than tell as women. Mhmm.

但如果我们说，哦，我注意到这里有个空缺，实际上公司如果能设立一个跨职能的某某角色会受益匪浅，头衔可以这样或那样，其实不重要，但职责范围会是如此这般。我想听听您对此的看法。

But if we're like, oh, you know, I noticed that there's this gap here, and we actually the company could really benefit from a cross functional role in x, and the title could be this or that. Doesn't really matter, but the scope would be such and such. And I wanna know what you think about that.

你刚才说的那个点非常关键。公司会真正受益。是的。你必须提出商业理由。不能全是为了你自己。

And what you said there was such an important point to make. The company can really benefit. Yes. You've got to make the business case. It can't be all about you.

不。你知道，公司存在的意义并不是为了让我们开心。

No. You know, the company doesn't exist to make us happy.

确实不是。

It doesn't.

非常感谢你，Cynthia。你知道吗，我真希望多年前就认识你，但现在能结识你并与你交谈，我感到非常高兴。

Well, thank you so much, Cynthia. You know, I I really wish I'd known you all those years ago, but I'm so happy happy to make your acquaintance and have this conversation with you now.

你太客气了。这真是一段愉快的时光。

You are most welcome. It's been such a delight.

现在请允许我介绍刚才提到的两位首席运营官：Federato 的 Megan Bach——这家公司用机器学习评估风险——以及大波士顿 YMCA 的 Lauren Reyes。Megan、Lauren，在晋升到高层管理之前，你们是否曾感到“卡住”？那是种什么感觉？Lauren，你先来吧。

And now to those two COOs I mentioned earlier, Megan Bach of Federato, which is a company that uses machine learning to assess risk, and Lauren Reyes of the YMCA of Greater Boston. Megan and Lauren, did you feel stuck before you made it to upper management? Describe what that was like. Lauren, why don't you go first?

好的。我大部分职业生涯都在同一家机构工作，但确实并非始终被充分重视和认可。我记得特别清楚的有两次，其中一次是我已经在那里干了快十年，可他们似乎仍把我当成刚入职时的样子，而不是我成长后的样子。

Sure. Yeah. So I've, you know, had the privilege of working in one organization the majority of my professional career, but definitely didn't feel as though I was always valued and appreciated as much as I felt I should have been in certain spots. So I can definitely recall in particular a couple of times, one was when I was I had been in some place for almost ten years, and I think it was them seeing me always as the person I came into the organization as, and not as the person I felt I had grown into.

明白。

Right.

我意识到，无论我做什么，有些人永远把我当成那个二十出头刚进公司的年轻人。于是我决定离开，好让别人看到更好的我。

Realizing that it didn't matter what I did. They thought I was great, but there were some folks that were always gonna see me as that young 20 year old who started with the organization. And I decided that I needed to go in order to be, you know, to be seen as something better than that.

嗯，你呢，Megan？

Yeah. What about you, Megan?

我确实曾卡在那种中层管理的角色里。你得负责激励团队、培训团队、让大家朝同一方向努力。我非常在意把工作做好，确保自己理解所有期望，并且做得更多。

I absolutely felt stuck in that sort of middle management type role. You're responsible for keeping your team motivated, keeping them trained, keeping them rowing in the right direction. I was very attuned to making sure that I did a really good job that I like understood what all of the expectations were. And was doing all of that and more.

我

I

有好几次，我作为中层管理者带领团队，但上面的高级职位空缺，所以我实际上同时在干两份活。

found myself in a couple of different situations, being a middle manager leading a team of individuals, but having the senior role above me open. So I was essentially doing both.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我毛遂自荐，说我现在已经在做很多这方面的工作了，希望能有机会正式担任这个职位，承担这份责任。但我被跳过了这次晋升，他们告诉我需要从外部招聘一个曾经做过这个职位、有可靠业绩的人。这种事真的让我非常沮丧。

And so threw my name in the hat to say, hey, I'm doing a lot of this role now and would like the opportunity to take on that title, take on that responsibility. And I was passed over for that promotion, was told that they needed to hire someone from the outside, who had done the role before had a proven track record. And that's the kind of thing that actually gets me really frustrated.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为你们要求我先有做这个职位的经验，才给我机会去做这个职位，对吧？所以这有点像第二十二条军规。

Because how am I going required to have experience doing the role before you'll have an opportunity to do the role. Right? So it's a little bit of a a a catch 22.

对。

Right.

他们招来的那个人其实根本不是专家，也没有带来额外价值，结果我还得教他我们这里的做事方式，并且继续干他甩给我的很多活。正是这件事促使我离开那家公司，去别处找了新职位。但“你得有经验”的预期一直是个明显主题。最难的地方在于，在没机会获得经验之前，你就不可能拥有经验。

The guy they brought in was, in fact, not super expert, didn't bring additional value, and I now had to train him on how we did things around here and was continuing to do a lot of his work that he was now delegating to me. That was the impetus that led me to leaving that company and taking on a new role elsewhere. But that expectation that you have the experience has been a notable theme. And the hard part is you don't have the experience until you have an opportunity to have the experience.

是啊，就像你说的，典型的第22条军规。Lauren，你呢？你有没有去找高级管理层说，我想升职，我想要一个高级职位？

Yeah. Well, as you said, a total catch 22. Lauren, what about you? Did you reach out to senior management and say, I want a promotion. I want a senior role.

有的。我得说，我知道自己所在的组织比较幸运，文化氛围比一些营利机构或其他非营利机构更“和谐”。所以我很感激，刚入职时大部分主管真的关心我的发展和成长，并且愿意投入精力培养我。但我发现，节奏还是由他们决定，而不是由我决定。

Yeah. So I will say, I know I'm fortunate in the organization I work for. The culture is a little bit more like kumbaya than I think in some for profit spaces or even another some some other nonprofit spaces. And so I am fortunate that I felt like for the most part, when I started, I had supervisors who really cared about my development and my growth, and that they really poured into me. But what I was finding was that it was still gonna be on their timeframe and not on my timeframe.

很多时候我们总吐槽年轻一代，说他们“一入职就想当CEO”。我们也知道这不现实，对吧？所以我认真反思过：我是不是也在期待超出我职业阶段应有的东西？我进入职场时，几乎总是同龄人里最年轻的那一个。

And I know lots of times there's we give so much flack to the younger generation because they're like, I wanna come out and I wanna be a CEO on day one of my employment. And we realized that that can't happen, right? And so I really took some time to think about, is this what I'm doing? Am I expecting something more than what I should expect at this stage of my career? I always came into spaces for the most part being the youngest person of my peers.

当你既是年龄最小的，又是少数女性之一，还是通常唯一的少数族裔时，这些因素叠加在一起，让我不断审视自己，确保不是凭空想象或找借口。我确实和主管谈过，说“我想做更多，我准备好了，原因如下”。

And I think when you're also the youngest person and then one of the few females in the space, I think that can also be something. And then I've typically been in a lot of my career, the only person of color in that space as well. And so it's like this multitude of things that I'm walking in and trying to really evaluate and make sure that I'm not feeling something that's not really there or making excuses of something that, you know, that I've just made up. And so I did have conversations with my supervisor to say, this is what I wanna do. I'm I'm ready for more, this is why.

我觉得对我来说，带着我已经证明自己的例子、我已经完成甚至超额完成他们要求的事情并承担额外项目的例子来沟通非常重要。在这个特定的情况下，当我感到卡住了，我提议转型，从一个运营角色转向领导力发展角色。我觉得我已经做了很多事情，证明了我在这方面的经验，以及为什么我会是这个职位的合适人选。当我与他们进行这些对话时，他们说，哦，是的，你确实做了这些事情，我们同意。

I felt like it was very important for me to come with the examples of how I'd proven myself and the examples of how I had done the things they asked me and exceeded those things and taken on additional projects. And in this particular instance, when I felt stuck, I was proposing to make a transition to shift from an operational role to a leadership development role. And, I felt that I had done a lot of things that proven why I had the experience in that field, why I would be a good fit for that position. And when I was having those conversations with them, they said, Oh, yes, like you have done these things. We agree.

这很棒。你知道，我们真的很有兴趣看到你担任这个角色。但后来就没有什么进展了。我跟进了一下，说，我只是想确认一下这个职位的状态。他们说，哦，我们还在做一些关于这个角色可能是什么样子的决定和讨论，因为这将是组织中的一个新角色。

This is great. You know, we're really interested in seeing you in this role. And then nothing really happened with it. And I followed up and I said, I'm just checking in to see what the status of this is. And they said, Oh, we're still having some decisions and conversations about what this role might look like because it was going to be a new role in the organization.

后来，只有在他们发现另一个州的YMCA正在招募我去为他们工作之后。只有在那时，他们才说，哦，也许我们需要考虑这个角色，看看你是否真的适合。所以在很多方面，这让人感到沮丧，因为我觉得不应该因为担心我会离开，你才看到我的价值。

And then it was only after they found out that a YMCA from a different state was recruiting me to come work for them. And it was only then that they said, oh, well, maybe we need to think about this role and if it's something that you'd really be good for. And so that was frustrating in a lot of ways because I felt like it shouldn't take it shouldn't take you being concerned that I'm leaving for you to see my value.

所以你谈到了这个评估过程。你对自己进行了评估，也对组织进行了评估。Lauren，给我们讲讲这个过程对你来说是怎样的。你知道的？

So you've talked a little bit about this evaluation process. You kinda size yourself up. You size the organization up. Lauren, talk us through how that worked for you. You know?

我准备好了吗？你是如何为自己回答这个问题的？

Am I ready for this? How did you go about answering that question for yourself?

这很有趣，因为在我现在的角色中，每一天，即使是我作为COO的角色，我也经常问自己，我准备好了吗？我不知道。但毫无疑问，你知道，我觉得当我刚开始我的职业生涯时，我会认为我已经为一切做好了准备，已经具备了所有需要的技能。你知道，就像，是的，我可以学习，但我已经——我已经很不错了。我认为显然，当你每天面对不同的挑战时，你会意识到，哦，还有很多东西是我仍然需要学习的。

It's interesting because in my role now every day, even in my role as COO, ask myself all the time, am I ready for this? I don't know. But, definitely, you know, I think when I started my career, I would have thought that I was ready for everything and had all the skills I needed. And, you know, like, yes, I can learn, but I'm already- I'm already pretty good. And I think obviously, as you're confronted with different challenges, every single day, you realize, oh, there are a lot of things that I still have left to learn.

我参加了一个发展项目，整个目标真的是帮助人们从项目级别的角色成长为执行董事。其中一部分是自我评估。你做了很多自我评估。最后，你会得到一份非常详尽的报告，你得到的反馈，是自我评估。没有其他人参与。

And I went through a development program where the whole goal was really focused on helping people go from a program level role to become an executive director. And in that part of it was self evaluation. You did a lot of self assessments. And at the end of it, you get this report that was really robust and the feedback that you get, it's a self assessment. Nobody else put in on this but you.

其中很多内容对我来说真的很有启发。

And a lot of the things that came out of there were really eye opening for me.

比如什么？给我们举些例子。

Like what? Give us some examples.

有一个最让我印象深刻的，因为我还为此争论过，尽管是我自我评估的，是我做的自我评估，报告说，Lauren不太关心他人的健康和个人福祉。我把这个分享给我的朋友，我说，他们在说什么？我觉得我是一个，你知道，相当有爱心的人。她说，哦，不。她很快列举了三个例子。

One, the one that jumps out the most, because I argued about it, even though I self assessed, I did a self assessment, was it said, Lauren has little regard for people's health and personal well-being. I shared this with my friend and I said, what are they talking about? I feel like I'm, you know, a fairly caring person. And she said, oh, no. And she rattled off pretty quickly three examples.

哇。

Wow.

这是疫情前的世界，所以我先说明一下，但她举的例子是：有一天，一位员工打电话给我说，嘿，我喉咙痛，今天不能来上班。我说，好吧。但我其实很不高兴，很烦，翻了个白眼。对方在电话那头，看不到我。但你知道，我说的是喉咙痛。

This was in a pre pandemic world, so I'll preface that, but it was somebody in the example she gave was I had a staff person call me one day and said, Hey, like I have a sore throat, I'm not gonna be able to come to work today. And I said, Okay, fine. But I was upset, I was annoyed, I rolled my eyes. I mean, the person was on the phone, so they didn't see me. But, you know, I said a sore throat.

“拜托，来办公室吧。”这些例子让我事后反思自己是如何评价自己的，别人是怎么看我的。我意识到，除了我，没人造成这个问题。没人告诉生病的人“你就该来办公室”。虽然我没直接说这些话，但这就是我的态度。

Oh, come on, like come into the office. And it was some of those instances that once I had time to reflect upon how I evaluated myself, how people were viewing me. And I said, there's nobody else that is causing this issue except me. There's no one else that's telling people who are sick, oh, you should just come into the office. And even though I didn't say those words to them, that was the attitude that I had.

显然，这种态度会体现在我和他们的任何对话里，比如他们是否需要更多时间，或者因为身体不舒服无法按时完成任务。还有一个例子是，我常在项目开始时特别兴奋，但做到一半就失去兴趣，有时无法以同样的热情完成项目。这百分之百是真的。不过这也让我更好地评估自己适合什么角色。比如，我是否适合每天亲自执行的角色？

So obviously that came across any kind of conversations I was having with them about if they needed additional time or if they weren't able to maybe meet assignment deadlines because they weren't feeling well. And then there was another one about, how I would get really excited about the beginning of a project, but I would really lose interest partway through, and then sometimes not complete it with the same enthusiasm that I had started the project. That is a 100% true. And I think what it allowed me to do though is also better evaluate what roles I should be in. You know, like, do I need to be in that role where I am the doer doing it every day?

还是更适合战略角色，负责提出想法、进行对话，然后把日常和细节工作交给别人？但当你必须对着镜子审视自己，承认“这些是我技能上的短板”或“这些是我情商上的缺口”，并思考如何主动去解决，而不是拿它们当借口，解释为什么没得到想要的职位或为什么没能在希望的方向上脱颖而出，这个过程非常有趣。

Or am I better in a strategic role where I'm having that conversation and generating ideas to then pass on the actual day to day and the detail work to somebody else? But it's very interesting when you have to hold the mirror up to yourself and recognize, like, these are skill gaps that I have, or these are emotional intelligence gaps that I have. And how do I take control about going and fixing that rather than then kind of using it as an excuse for why I'm not getting the roles I want or why I'm not excelling in the points that I wish I was.

嗯。那么，梅根，你呢？你有没有一个自我评估的过程，来判断自己是否准备好迈向高级管理层？那是什么样的？

Yeah. So, Megan, how about you? Was there a process where you sort of evaluated yourself to figure out whether you were ready for that big leap into senior management? What did that look like?

我会拿这个开玩笑，因为如果你不笑，可能就得哭了。我40岁那年，是一家大型保险公司的高级副总裁。就在那一年，第一，我离婚了；第二，我离职了；第三，我认真思考了接下来真正想做什么。所以问题不是卡在中层管理想突破，而是——

So I joke about this, because if you don't laugh about things, you might otherwise cry. But the year I turned 40, I was a senior vice president in a large insurance organization. And that happens to be the year that I, number one got divorced, number two, left my job. And number three, did some real soul searching on what it was that I wanted to do going forward. And so less about the feeling stuck in a middle management kind of role and wanting to break through to that next level.

更在于：即使到了高层也不一定够，对吧？你仍然要问自己：你对每天做的事情有热情吗？早上醒来有动力去上班、指导团队、制定战略、确保执行吗？我的答案是否定的。虽然那个职位是高级领导层，我也曾觉得“这就是我想去的地方”——

More around just being at the next level isn't necessarily enough, right? Like there's still an element of are you passionate about the things that you're doing on a day to day basis? Do you get motivated to show up to work in the morning and actually coach people or set strategy or ensure execution is happening? And the answer for me was no. The role that I was in, even though it was senior leadership role, and I felt like, okay, this is where I thought I wanted to go.

但它并没有在各方面让我充实。正如你刚才听到的，我在其他方面也感到被困住了，对吧？

It wasn't filling me up in all those ways. And as you just heard, like, there were other ways in which I felt stuck. Right?

对。我想问你们俩两个问题。第一个是：有没有一个触发点，让你们决定走上高级领导这条路，让你们说“够了，我一直在做这份工作”？

Right. I I wanna ask two questions of both of you. One of them is, you know, was there a trigger that sort of set you on this path into senior leadership where you said, you know what? Enough. I've been doing the job.

我没有得到晋升。或者对你来说，Lauren，我已经具备了所有技术技能。我正在提升软技能。我受够了。有没有那么一刻你只是说我受够了？

I'm not getting the promotion. Or in your case, Lauren, I've got all of the technical skills. I'm working on the soft skills. I've had it. Is there a moment where you just said I've had it?

Lauren，我先问你。

Lauren, I'll I'll ask you first.

是的。所以在我最初举的那个例子里，其实没有一个那么明确的瞬间。但在之后的一段时间，我确实有过那样的时刻。当时他们把我的一位同级同事提拔成了我的上司。当我问为什么做出这个决定时，他们说，哦，我们觉得你还需再积累一些成绩。

Yeah. So this actually in the original example I gave, there was probably not that definitive moment. In a later time period, I definitely had that moment. I was in a situation where they promoted somebody who was my peer to become my supervisor. And when I asked about why that decision had been made, they said, oh, we felt that you needed some more wins.

这是什么意思？

What does that mean?

对，对，这是什么意思？他们也说不清楚。于是我就说，好吧，这是我看到的。

Right. Right. What does that mean? They couldn't really articulate it well. And what I then did was I said, well, this is what I see.

这是我看到那位同事取得的成果，而这是我看到我自己取得的成果。我完全没有针对那个人。我们只是服务不同的群体。那个人服务的社区很富裕，资源无限。所以人们有钱，他们来参与，收入就很好。

This is what I see that other individual has accomplished, and this is what I see I've accomplished. And it was nothing against this individual at all. We were just serving different communities. The community that individual was serving was an affluent community where there were boundless resources. And so people had money and they came and they did and they partaked and revenue was great.

而我服务的社区不是这样。我们得用更少的资源做更多的事。于是我说，让我告诉你我认为我取得的成绩。那个人也有，但性质不同。如果你把那个人放到我的处境，我不觉得他们会同样成功，因为他们根本不懂如何在有限资源下工作。

The communities that I were serving were not that way. We were having to do a lot more with a lot less. And so I said, you know, let me explain to you the wins I feel that I've had. And this person has those too, but they're different. And if you were to put that individual into my situation, I don't think they would have been as successful because they just don't understand how to work within the finite resources that we had available.

但那一刻我意识到，我无法改变他们的看法。于是当时我对——现在有时我都不知道自己哪来的勇气说这话——我们正经历领导层更替，所以当时和我谈话的是首席运营官。那是我第一次见他。我们聊着，我向他表达我的沮丧：他们提拔了我的同级，却连事先沟通都没有。

But I realized in that moment that I wasn't going to change their opinion on that. And so at that moment, I actually said to, I still sometimes don't know what possessed me to say this, but we had our leadership transition, and so it was the COO at the time that I was sitting with. It was the first time I'd ever met him. We're having this conversation. I'm explaining to him that I was frustrated that they'd promoted, you know, one of my peers without even a conversation prior to about, you know, what that was gonna look like.

我说，很明显你们不认可我在这里的价值，而我自己知道我的价值，所以我要去一个会欣赏我的地方。于是我告诉他，我说，我会在夏天之前离开。

And I said, it's clear to me that you all don't see my value here, And I know my value, so I'm gonna go someplace that will appreciate me. And so I told him, I said, I'll be- I'll be gone by the summertime.

哎呀。

Oh boy.

他当时就那样看着我，好像在说，天啊，我这是踏进什么坑了？因为他是新来的，是在那些资历更深的人的指导下做决策。所以我想那一刻他开始怀疑，我们做的决定真的对吗？我不认识劳伦，但为了她值得吗？我不确定。

And he kind of just gave me this look as if to say, Oh my gosh, like, what did I just step into? Because, you know, he was new, and he was making decisions under the guidance of people who had been there longer than him. And so I think in that moment, he started to think, like, did we make the right decision? And, you know, I don't know Lauren, but is it worth losing her? I'm not sure.

于是他说，真的很遗憾听到这些，我真希望我们能做点什么让你改变主意。他说，我对你还不太了解，但我听说过你的好话，我希望你能留下来。而我，并没有留下。

And so he just said, know, I'm really sorry to hear that. I really hope that we can do something to change your mind. He's like, I don't really know you well, but, you know, I've heard good things about you, and I hope that you will stay with us. And, you know, I did not.

嗯，好。那现在我想听听你受够了的故事。梅根，跟我们说说。

Yeah. Yep. Well, okay. So now I wanna hear your story of being fed up. Megan, tell us.

我也有类似的经历。我不会说有一个瞬间让我突然醒悟。但我确实得到了机会。我已经被提拔过几次，但仍旧是中层管理的级别。我有很多接触高管层的机会。

I had a similar experience. I I wouldn't say there was, like, a switch flip for me. But I had the opportunity. I'd been promoted a few different times, but sort of still at that middle manager level. And I had a lot of exposure to executive leadership.

我有很多机会在建设项目、推动影响的同时锻炼技能，也表达过我想发展职业、承担高级职位的愿望，但都被搪塞了。对吧？说什么你在继任计划里，大概两到五年内会升职。

And I had a multitude of opportunities where I was building skills, where I was running projects, driving impact, and had expressed my desire to grow my career, take on that senior level role, and was sort of rebuffed. Right? Like, you're you're in that succession planning. Right? Like, it's a promo within two to five years.

我心里想，好吧，你说这些是想让我安心，但两到五年，这也太……

And I'm thinking to myself, okay. You're trying to say the things that are going to make me feel okay, but two to five years, like, that's that's

谁听到‘咱们两三年后再谈’会鼓掌啊，对吧？

Whoever whoever stood up and cheered at, let's talk about this in two to five years. Right?

没错。同时，我亲眼看着那些高管如何经营业务、如何亮相、如何制定对组织、对我曾经带领的、每天打交道的员工产生真实影响的大决策。我就想，哦，我能做得比他们好。我真的能把公司宣称的价值观贯彻到战略、执行和领导中去，我想有机会证明这一点。

Right. And at the same time, I was witnessing the way those executive leaders ran their businesses, showed up, set strategy, made big decisions that had real impacts on the organization, on the people who I had led at various points, who I interacted with on a day to day basis. And I was just feeling like, Oh, I can do it better than that. Like I, I have a way of actually driving forward the values that our company says we hold, and pulling that through into strategy and execution and leadership, and wanted my chance to to prove that out.

好。我注意到你们两人的职业路径都有一个共同点：你们都愿意冒险去达到想去的层次。梅根，你从一家保险公司跳到另一家，还做过一段顾问，对吧？

Good. So one of the things I noticed as I look at both of your career paths is that you were both willing to take risks to get to the level you wanted to reach. So, Megan, you moved from one insurance company to another. You did a tour of duty as a consultant. Right?

对。你还请了高管教练。你知道自己需要改变，于是主动求变以实现目标。跟我们讲讲你当时的思路和整个过程。

Yep. You also hired an executive coach. You knew something needed to change for you, and you were gonna make a change in order to achieve this level you wanted. Talk us through that whole line of thinking, that process.

是的。你刚才提到了几个要点，它们彼此叠加。你知道，我已经表达过那种挫败感和作为中层管理者被困住的感觉。鉴于我所有的经历，我意识到，冒点风险是值得的——去申请并成为另一家组织的高级领导，因为你所在的公司首先考虑的是他们自己的利益，对吧？

Yeah. There's there's a couple of points that you just called out, and and they sort of build on each other. You know, I've talked through that frustration and feeling of stuckness as a middle manager. And given all the experiences I had had, I realized, you know what? It may be a risk, but it's worth taking it to apply for and become a senior level leader in another organization because the company where you're working has their own best interests in mind, right?

这不是个人问题，这是生意。但他们已经习惯了我现在的角色，我在这个岗位上做出了不错的成绩。所以，提拔我反而对他们有阻碍。当你去另一家公司或申请另一家公司时，

It's it's not personal. It's it's business. But they're used to me in the role that I'm in where I'm making a good impact. And so there's a deterrent. There's a downside to promoting me on when you work in another organization or apply to another organization.

他们会根据你今天的样子来看待你；他们会根据你能阐述的成就以及你愿意承诺并去实现的潜力来看待你。所以，这有点冒险，但对我来说是值得的。我就是这样晋升到高级领导层的。你提到的下一个转变，是我彻底告别保险行业。

They see you for who you are today. They see you for the accomplishments that you're able to articulate, and the potential of what you're willing to sign up for and do. And so that was a bit of a risk, but paid off in my case. And that's how I made that shift to senior level leadership. The sort of next shift that you describe is hanging up my hat on the insurance industry.

我整个职业生涯，将近二十年，都花在了这一个行业、这一条轨迹上。现在我想做点不一样的事。我得先弄清楚a) 是什么，b) 怎么做，c) 鼓起勇气去做。所以，请一位高管教练真的帮到了我，给了我一些框架来规划：我到底喜欢做什么，这又能转化成什么。

My entire career, nearly twenty years was spent in that one industry, in that one trajectory. And now I want to do something different. And I've got to figure out a what it is, b how to do it and see, gather the courage that's needed to do it. So having an executive coach really helped me to do that, gave me some frameworks to kind of map it out, understand what's the stuff that I actually love to do, and what might that translate into.

那么，当你聘请那位高管教练时，你找教练的目的是让他或她帮你获得那次晋升吗？

And so when you hired that executive coach, did you hire that coach with the idea that he or she would help you get to this promotion?

那位教练的目标，是帮我找到一个更能让我有成就感的职业转向。

That specific coach was aimed at helping me find a career pivot that is going to be more fulfilling.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当时并没有想到会走到今天这一步。但我要说，正是那份开放、敢于冒险、勇于尝试新事物的精神，让我最终得到了现在这家服务保险行业的科技公司COO的职位。对我来说，这算是个圆满回归，但故事还没完，对吧？我仍在学习、仍在成长，现在也有另一位同样出色的高管教练。

It wasn't with the end in mind of where I am now, But I will say doing that work being open to that risk, and having the courage to like try new things is very much what has led me to the COO role I have today at a technology company that is serving the insurance industry. And it's, you know, a nice full circle for me, but there's no end in sight, right? Like I am still learning, still growing, have a different but also incredible executive coach now.

很好。那么，Lauren，你把自己“推”了出去。不过说说看，你真的先为了坦帕的VP职位搬了家，然后又为了波士顿的COO职位再搬回来。这种愿意跳一跳的心态，对你的职业轨迹起了什么作用？

Great. So, Lauren, you know, you you kinda pushed yourself out the door. But talk about you know, you actually relocated first for a VP job in Tampa, then a COO job back in Boston. How did that that willingness to take the leap factor into your career path?

好的。我很早就知道，当我开始在YMCA工作时，我就爱上了这个组织，也爱上了它在全球而不仅仅是我所在社区所做的工作。我强烈地觉得，我大概不会离开Y。他们的退休福利也很好，所以我就想，这里可能就是我长期待的地方。

Yeah. So I I knew very early on when I started at the YMCA that I loved the organization, and I loved the work that it did not just in my local community but across the globe. And I felt strongly that I would probably not leave the Y. They also have a great retirement plan. So I was like, know, this is probably the place where I'm gonna be for the long term.

而且我很幸运，多年来在全国各地为Y工作时结识了许多优秀的人。我深知自己热衷于服务他人，并助力世界发生积极变化，但我并不总能在当时所在的Y看到完全一样的氛围。不过我知道，其他YMCA确实存在这样的文化，而无论它将以何种形式出现在我——劳伦——的下一段人生进化中。因此，当我陷入困顿、感觉所在的环境不再与我契合或滋养我时，能够意识到“我可以改变，却依然保留熟悉感”，这在某种程度上是一种安慰。

And fortunate enough that I made a lot of good connections over the years with people from across the country working for the Y. And I knew that I was passionate about serving people and and helping to contribute to positive change in the world, but I didn't necessarily always see that exact thing replicated at the Y where I was. But I knew that it existed at YMCAs out there, and whatever version that looked like for the next the next evolution of Lauren and who I was. And so when I got into these spaces where I was feeling stuck, where I was feeling like this space is no longer, you know, aligning or serving me. It was comforting in a way to know that I could have change, but still also have familiarity.

所以我可以在一个全新的职位、全新的城市寻求变化，却仍旧留在自己熟悉且自信能做好的组织与业务领域里。我很幸运拥有一个强大的支持系统。那时我已婚，他非常支持我追随自己的道路与心愿。我的孩子们也把新城市看作新冒险，这一点并非人人如此。因此，许多人害怕搬迁的理由在我这儿并不存在。

And so I could seek change in a new role, in a new location, but with an organization that I knew, and content that I felt really comfortable, I could do well. And so I was fortunate that I had a really good support system. I was married at the time, and he was very supportive of me following my path and where I wanted to be. I have kids that are very much look at, you know, a new city as a new adventure, and that's not always the case. And so a lot of the reasons I think people are afraid to relocate didn't exist me.

很多人说：“我的孩子会崩溃”或者“我的伴侣可能不会支持”，以及其他种种顾虑。庆幸的是，我生命中的这些人都非常支持我，让我能够轻松地审视机会，并问自己：这对我、对我们是不是一个好机会？我能否去一个真正能贡献力量、让事情变得更好的地方？这是否延续了我所认为的人生旅程与方向？我之所以这么说，是因为多年前我参加过一个项目，他们提出了“职业路线图”的概念。

A lot of people say, Oh, my kids would be devastated, or my partner maybe wouldn't be supportive, or, you know, all of the different reasons. And thankfully, a lot of those people were very supportive of my life and made it very easy for me to really look at the opportunity and say, Is this a good opportunity for me, for us? Can I go to a place where I feel like I can really help contribute and make things better? And does it keep me on what I felt is my journey and my path? And I say that because I was in a program years ago, and they brought up the idea of career mapping.

他们问：“你退休时想达到什么位置？你打算几岁退休？”然后你要倒推回来，这样就能算出从现在到退休之间你还剩几次职业变动。这对我帮助很大，因为它让我看清——得益于优厚的退休计划，我打算提前退休。

And they said, you know, where is it that you wanna be when you retire? And what age are you gonna be when you retire? And then what you need to do is then work backwards. And then I'll tell you how many different career moves you have left between now and when you wanna retire. And that was really helpful for me because it allowed me to see because of that great retirement plan, I plan on retiring early.

于是我想：“好吧，我其实没太多步可走了，我要确保每一步都算数，并让我更接近目标。”我觉得，如果我们做事缺乏意图，最终就会追逐那些闪亮的表象，或者听起来不错、实则并未让你更接近终极目标的东西。因此，有了那张职业路线图，我更容易审视机会，并问自己：这只是一时的好选择，还是真正能助我抵达最终目的地？

And so I said, okay, I don't have a ton of moves left to make necessarily. And I want to make sure that each one counts and gets me closer to where I want to be. I think sometimes when we do things without intention, we end up following and chasing shiny objects, or you know, things that maybe sound like a really good idea, but really aren't putting you any closer to where you ultimately wanna be. And so having that career map done, it was easier for me to look at the opportunities and say, is this really something that's just good for right now, or does it really help get me closer to where I ultimately wanna be?

你的故事真的让我产生共鸣。那种自我反思，还有那种诚实，那种尖锐的诚实——你意识到自己已经没有太多职业选择，这立刻让你清醒过来。但还有勇气，你们俩，Lauren 和 Megan，做出这些转变需要胆量。你们愿意纵身一跃，心里想着：管它呢？

Well, your story really resonates with me. That self reflection, but also that honesty, that really astringent honesty that you don't have that many career moves left. So that sobers you up real fast. But then also the courage, both of you, Lauren and Megan, it took guts to make those moves. You you were willing to take the leap with the idea that, you know what?

也许不会成功，但我现在并不开心。所以我得做点什么。你们是在对自己负责。这一点我特别有共鸣。我之所以来到《哈佛商业评论》，就是因为意识到——虽然我当时可能没直接说“我被困住了”，但我确实得承认其中一部分是我自己的责任。

It might not work, but I'm not happy right now. So I need to do something. So you were taking responsibility for yourself. And that really resonates for me. It's how I got to Harvard Business Review was realizing, I mean, I don't know if I said I was stuck when I was thinking about it, but I sure had to own what part of it was my responsibility.

接着我得把自己真正推出去，去争取一个我不确定能否得到的机会。这对我来说是巨大的一步。从旧金山搬到波士顿，这件事本身还没那么可怕；更可怕的是发现：原来我根本配不上这份工作。被拒绝的恐惧，对我来说更难承受。

And then I had to really put myself out there and try for something I wasn't sure I was gonna get. It represented a huge step up for me. And moving across the country, the prospect of moving from San Francisco to Boston was somehow less daunting to me than the prospect of finding out that, you know what? I I actually didn't deserve the job. The fear of rejection, that was almost harder for me to deal with.

所以我的意思是，我把自己推了出去，我几乎是逼自己去面对。天哪，我真庆幸我那么做了。但正是这种被拒绝的恐惧，让我原地踏步了好多年。

So that's what I mean. I put myself out there. I sort of I sort of dared myself to handle that. And, man, am I glad I did. But that fear of rejection is part of what kept me stuck in place for too many years.

你们有共鸣吗？

Does that resonate for either of you?

是的。我总是跟我妈妈开玩笑说，我觉得我申请的每一份工作可能都不够格，但还是得到了。所以那种恐惧一直都在。实际上，你知道的，我是够格的，我具备所需的能力，但你内心总有一部分会自我怀疑，告诉自己这不适合我，或者我不够好，或者这不是

Yes. I I joke with my mom all the time that I feel like I've been probably not qualified for every job that I've applied for and gotten. So there's always that fear. And in actuality, you know, like I was qualified. I had what it took, but there's always that part of you, that self doubt that just says this is not for me, or I'm not good enough, or this is not

我的

my

机会。我觉得我们确实会有那个小小的内心声音，告诉我们各种事情。有时候我们得把它赶走，告诉自己，不，我能行。

opportunity. And I think it definitely makes sense that we have that little inner voice that that tells us all these different things. And we sometimes just have to knock it out and say, no, I've got this.

我只想补充一点并表示同意，有勇气去冒险绝对是一个因素。我也觉得所谓的风险被夸大了，感觉比实际更大。听我说完。就像我在考虑跳槽去一个更高的职位，风险是我没得到那份工作。那我就留在原地，其实也没什么影响。

One thing I just wanna add and agree, having the courage to take the risk is absolutely a factor. I also think that the so called risk is blown up to feel bigger than perhaps it really is. And and hear me out for a moment. It's like, as I'm thinking about moving companies so that I could take on a promoted position, the risk is I don't get that job. And then I stay where I am, and there's really no impact.

或者风险是我得到了那份工作，但我讨厌它。那结果是什么？并不是我会一无所有、无法养活自己。对吧？也就是说，好吧，那你就再找一份新工作。

Or the risk is I do get that job, and I hate it. Well, what's the outcome? It's not that I end up penniless and incapable of caring for myself. Right? It's like, okay, well, then you find a new job.

或者你回到原来的公司。我这么说只是想表达，我知道我内心根深蒂固地觉得这些事情风险很大。对。但那就像是我的内心批评者，它告诉我，哦，你可能做不好这件事。

Mhmm. Or you go back to the old company. I share that only to say, like, I know I have felt ingrained in me that these kinds of things are very risky. Right. But that's like, my inner critic, the one that's telling me, oh, well, you may not be successful at doing this.

但如果你真的退一步，看看实际情况，就会发现，哦，这其实没那么大风险。所以这是我愿意投入的一个选择，因为这里的上升潜力绝对值得。

But if you actually step back and you look at the data, it's like, oh, this isn't that big of a risk. And so it is one that I'm willing to lean into because the upside potential here is absolutely worth it.

而且留在原地的确定 downside（负面结果）。

And the downside, the certain downside of staying where you are.

没错，没错。也要认识到不是每个人都有相同的情况。对别人来说风险可能不一样。但我确实觉得，这有点像，你知道的，这是我们的进化，我们有负面偏见。我们总觉得事情比实际更危险。

Exactly, exactly. And recognize that not everybody has the same set of circumstances. And the risk could be different to others. But I do think that there is a bit of like, you know, it's our evolution, we are we have a negativity bias. Like, we think that it is more risky than it is.

但如果你仔细看看，其实这可能是一个更容易做出的尝试。

And if you look at it, it could actually be a much easier swing to take.

尤其是如果你的目标是获得你认为自己应得的晋升，达到你觉得自己已经赢得的层级，那么不迈出这一步的风险要大得多。我还有一个问题要问你。辛西娅提到了让组织外部有影响力的人看到你的重要性。梅根，当你没有得到想要的那份工作时，你在考虑下一步大动作时有没有想到这一点？

And particularly if your goal is to get the promotion you believe you deserve to reach a level that you feel that you have earned, there is way more downside to not taking the leap. I have another question for you. So Cynthia talked about the importance of making yourself visible to influential people outside your organization. Megan, did you think about that as you were thinking about your your next big move when you didn't get the job you wanted?

这是一种意识，也是我在随后几年里越来越刻意去做的事情，可能在早期阶段或者当我处于中层管理岗位时，我做得并不怎么有效。我当时大概错误地认为，让我从当时的位置进入高级领导层的最快途径，就是把现有职位的具体职责做得更出色。我把这理解为：好吧，把我所有的时间和精力都花在尽可能把每一项“职责”都做到最好。然而，辛西娅提出的观点可能才是事实，也就是

That is an awareness, and something that I have gotten much more intentional about as years have gone on, probably not something I was doing terribly effectively in those earlier stages or when I was in that middle management position. I, and I think probably falsely believed that essentially the fastest equation to get me from where I was into a senior leadership role was to do a better job at the specific role mandate that I already had. And I took that to mean, Okay, spend all my time and energy focusing on doing as best a job as I possibly can on every single one of my sort of accountabilities When what might have been true is that point that Cynthia brought up, which is

我

I

我把大量额外的时间和精力投入到了一个收益递减的领域，对吧？比如确保职位描述里的每一个‘i’都点好，每一个‘t’都画好，而不是把这些时间和能量重新分配到提高可见度、建立关系上，或许还可以在组织外部寻找教练、导师或赞助人。所以当时我没这么做。但我认为这非常相关，因为当我离开这个行业、创建一家咨询公司时，这成了我做的很重要的一部分；在那家咨询公司里，我认识了各类其他企业的领导者，并探索了这些关系如何实际上创造更多机会去做不同且更有趣的事情。

poured plenty of extra hours and energy into, you know, an area of diminishing returns, right? Like making sure that every I was dotted and every T was crossed on every single attribute of my job description versus redeploying that energy, some of those hours to being visible, creating relationships, and perhaps creating coaches or mentors or sponsors outside of the organization. So I didn't do that at the time. But I think it's very relevant, because that is a big part of what I did when I was leaving the industry, creating a consulting organization, and then in that consulting organization, getting to know all types of other leaders of other businesses, and exploring the ways in which relationships there could actually create more opportunities to do different and more fun things.

是的。让我惊讶的是，当我在不同组织里一步步晋升时，建立外部声誉竟然如此重要，而且职位越高，这一点就越关键。劳伦，你觉得呢？

Yeah. That's one thing that surprised me as I moved up through various organizations was how important it was to develop an external reputation and how much more important it got as you moved higher and higher. How does that sound to you, Lauren?

是的。我认为人脉很关键，而且我能坐到今天这个位置，人脉占了很大比重。虽然我的职业生涯大部分时间都在YMCA工作，但我待过四家不同的YMCA，每一家基本上就像独立运营的公司。我非常刻意地去与身处不同YMCA、不同岗位、不同地区的人建立关系。

Yes. Networking, I think, is key, and it is a big part of how I'm in the seat that I am in today. So while I've spent my, you know, most of my career with the YMCA, I've been in four different YMCAs. So each one is, you know, kind of operating like its own separate company. And I was very intentional about developing relationships with people that were in different YMCAs, in different roles, in different parts of the country.

与他们的联系让我得以入选全国小组、项目团队，以及不同会议的策划委员会，这使我在整个组织中拥有了不同层次的连接，也让我接触到不同的人。因此，当现在这个职位出现机会时，这里的CEO刚加入YMCA，对组织没有任何经验，但他确实给YMCA运动中的不同领导者打电话，询问有没有合适的人选推荐来谈这个职位。我的名字被好几个人提到，就是因为我确实走出了自己所在的本地，去确保建立那些关系。

And having connections to them allowed me to be chosen to serve on national groups and project teams, planning committees for different conferences that gave me a different level of connectedness to the overall organization, but also exposure to different people. And so, you know, when this opportunity, this role that I'm in right now, when it came up, the CEO here was new to the YMCA. He, you know, hadn't had any experience with the organization, but he did make phone calls to different leaders around the Y movement to ask for possible suggestions of people who should talk to for this role. And my name came up from several different people. And that is because I did, you know, step out of my own location to ensure that I was building those relationships.

所以，即便我大部分时间都在YMCA工作，这对我来说绝对是关键。

And so it's definitely been key to me, even though I've, you know, been with the YMCA for most of the time.

嗯，你非常有策略。我想请两位都给我们的听众玛吉一些建议，她写信说自己感觉困在现在的中层管理岗位上。我来描述一下她的情况。玛吉在这家公司已经工作了十九年。

Mhmm. It's very strategic of you. So I wanna ask for you both to give advice to our listener, Maggie, who wrote to us about feeling stuck in her current middle management role. So let me describe the situation. Maggie's worked for her company for nineteen years.

大约八年前她被提拔为经理。在过去一年里，她申请了好几个高级管理职位，也明确表达了自己想晋升的愿望。但到目前为止，都没有结果。她正在积极寻求来自本部门及其他部门领导的职业指导，还完成了被提名参加的领导课程。她把自己的领导风格描述为比较安静，并说她更喜欢‘从后面领导’，这是她的原话。

She was promoted to manager about eight years ago. And over the last year, she's applied for a number of senior management roles and has been vocal about wanting to be promoted. But so far, nothing has panned out. She's actively seeking career mentorship from leaders with within and outside her department and has completed leadership courses that she's been nominated to attend. And while she's described her leadership style as more quiet and that she prefers to lead from behind as she puts it.

她在需要的时候可以更有权威。尽管她努力被视为领导者，但她很难让其他领导者看到她的领导潜力。虽然她的绩效评估非常出色，反馈基本上是“继续保持”，但她被间接告知自己还没有准备好进入高级管理层，她的职业角色很适合她，因为她很擅长，而且她太友善了。她的导师建议，为了帮助她、支持她的晋升，她应该开始在自己并非专家的领域发表意见，以帮助领导者将她视为不仅仅局限于自己狭窄专业领域的洞察来源。你们怎么看这个建议？

She can be more authoritative when she needs to be. Despite her efforts to be seen as a leader, she's having a hard time getting other leaders to see her leadership potential. While her performance reviews are excellent and the feedback is essentially to keep doing what you're doing, she's been told indirectly that she's not ready for senior management, that her career role suits her because she's good at it and that she's too nice. Her mentors have suggested that to help her case, to support her case, she should start offering her opinion on things that she's not an expert in to help leaders see her as a source of insight on more than just her narrow areas of expertise. So what do you guys think of that advice?

我个人不会这么做。人们能感觉到你不懂，我觉得有时候在你真的不了解的事情上给建议，比诚实地说“说实话，我不知道”更危险。说实话，在这种情况下，我觉得她的组织已经一次又一次地向她表明了他们对她的看法以及他们如何重视她。我认为他们确实重视她，但他们重视的是她目前的角色。我看不出她在这个角色之外还有什么价值。

I would not do that, personally. People can sense when you don't know, and I think sometimes it's more dangerous to offer advice on something that you really have no, knowledge of rather than just to be honest and say, you know what, I don't know. I mean, honestly, in this case, I feel as though her organization has shown her time and time again, what they think of her and how they value her. And I think they do value her, but they value her in the role that she's in. And I don't see her value beyond that.

所以我会对她说，你能接受吗？因为他们已经非常一致地表明了他们的看法，并且他们会继续这样做。而她得不到任何关于如何改进的有效反馈，这种挫败感，对我来说，这只能说明他们可能并不打算投资让她晋升，或者在她目前角色之外拥有未来。

So I would say for her, are you okay with that? Because they've shown you very consistently that that's what they think, and that that's what they're going to continue to do. And the frustration of not having any valid feedback, essentially, about how she can improve, I think for me, that just says they're probably not invested in seeing her get promoted or have a future beyond the role that she's currently

嗯。Megan，你有什么要补充的吗？

in. Mhmm. Anything to add, Megan?

我完全同意Lauren的看法。在当前岗位干了八年，反馈出色，却没有任何支持或指导让她进入下一个角色。信息已经很明确了。我想我也会鼓励她不要把它当成个人问题，要把这两者分开。她的雇主无权决定她的内在价值，对吧？

I I completely agree with Lauren. Eight years in a current role with stellar feedback, but zero support or direction towards developing into that next role. The message is pretty clear. I guess I would also encourage her not to take it personally, to really separate that out. Like, her employer does not get to decide her inherent value, right?

她的内在价值由她自己决定。事实上，数据说明她在当前岗位上创造了巨大的价值。如果她想要迎接新的挑战，那可能是时候去寻找其他能让她立即以更高层次的方式增加价值的地方了。

She is deciding her inherent value. And in fact, the data says she's adding incredible value in the role that she's in. And if she'd like to take on new challenges, then it probably is time to look for other places where there might be more opportunity to add value immediately in that sort of higher level way.

那你觉得她在组织内还有办法改变别人对她潜力的看法吗？你怎么看，Lauren？

So do you think there's any way for her to change the perception of her potential within the organization? What do you think, Lauren?

这大概就像性格测试，对吧，取决于一个人选择如何处理。对我来说，我会想，我不愿意在一个待了十九年还得拼命让你看到我的潜力的组织里继续待下去。所以对我来说，我会说这不值得，不再值得我投入精力，我会去别的地方。

This is probably a personality test, right, between how somebody would choose to go about this. For me, I would look at it and say, I don't wanna be in an organization where after nineteen years, I still have to fight for you to see me, you know, to see the potential in me. So for me, I would say it's not worth it's no longer worth my energy and effort. I'm gonna just go on to other places.

你同意吗，Megan？

Do you agree, Megan?

我额外想到的一点是，她是否可以尝试另一种策略，这策略对她有益，同时也给这个组织再一次机会。我不否认他们基本上已经表明了他们是怎样的人。但也许有一种方式，让Maggie既能获得更多乐趣，又能积累更多技能，如果我们回到“得先有经验才能获得机会”这一点，对吧，这可以填补她的一些空白，只要有机会去做那些由她主动发起、自我引导的工作，比如识别一个存在的问题或一个需要抓住的机会。她可以做一些项目工作，认真调研，制定计划，建立框架，带动团队去满足这个需求，同时在这个过程中获得乐趣。这可能是一个与除她直接汇报线之外的其他领导者建立关系的机会，那些一直给她“还行”反馈的人，也可能因此建立一种赞助型关系。

The one extra thing that sort of occurs to me is how can she maybe try another tactic that would be beneficial to her in addition to giving yet another opportunity to this organization. I don't disagree that like they've essentially made clear who it is they are. But there could be a way where Maggie could have some additional fun and build some additional skills, which if we go back to needing to have the experience before you have the opportunity to have the experience, right could fill some of those gaps for her, to the extent that there are opportunities to do work that is independently motivated, that is self guided, which would be identifying a problem that exists or an opportunity that needs to be filled. That could be something for her to do some some project work, really vet that out, create a plan, create a framework, get people involved, mobilize teams to sort of fill that need and have some fun while she's doing it. It's an opportunity to potentially engage some other leaders than her direct chain that's been giving her kind of meh feedback could be an opportunity to create a sponsorship type relationship.

无论哪种方式，如果她发现了一个让她兴奋的小众领域、问题陈述或空白，并愿意额外投入精力去创造解决方案，这都可以成为她积累技能、建立关系的机会，并再次尝试看看：我是否履行了你对高级领导的期望——不是执行现有战略和指导，而是识别挑战、解决问题、动员团队开展工作——并以此为基础来谈论她的进一步发展。

And either way, if she finds a niche or a problem statement or a gap that makes her excited to do some extra work to, you know, create solutions, that could be a way to build some skills, build some relationships and give it another shot to see, okay, I'm fulfilling what you would expect of senior leadership, which is not executing existing strategies and guidance, but instead, identifying challenges, solving them, you know, mobilizing the team to do work, and use that as a platform on which to talk about her further development.

嗯，我唯一想补充的是，现在正是开始建立声誉的时候。走出去，参加会议，在 LinkedIn 上发帖。不要对你一无所知的话题发表意见。

Well, the only thing I would add to what you've both said is that this is exactly the time to start working on reputation building. Get out there. Go to conferences. Post on LinkedIn. Don't weigh in on topics you don't know anything about.

那不会给你带来任何好处。但要把你的价值、知识和经验展现给世界，看看它会给你什么反馈。

That's not gonna get you anywhere. But do project your value, your knowledge, your experience out into the world and see what it says back to you.

是的，绝对如此。

Yeah. Absolutely.

所以这次谈话很棒。我非常感谢你们的坦率和愿意分享故事。谢谢你们，Megan 和 Lauren。

So this has been great. I so appreciate the candor and your willingness to share your stories. Thank you both, Megan and Lauren.

当然，很乐意参与。谢谢。

Absolutely. Happy to do it. Thank you.

如果 Megan 听起来耳熟，那是因为她首次出现在《Women at Work》关于高管气质的精华集里。在那期节目中，你将学会如何提升自己的影响力、让虚拟观众保持投入，并在忠于自我的同时成长。这是《如何管理》第二季的最后一集。我希望你能从中有所收获。实际上，我希望你收获满满。

If Megan sounds familiar, that's because she first appeared on Women at Work in our essentials episode about executive presence. In that one, you'll learn how to improve your own influence and impact, keep a virtual audience engaged, and grow while staying true to yourself. This is the final episode of season two of how to manage. I hope you got something out of it. I hope you got a lot out of it, actually.

请通过电子邮件 women@workathbr.org 把你的反馈发给我。《Women at Work》的编辑与制作团队包括 Amanda Kersey、Maureen Hoch、Tina Toby Mac、Rob Eckhart、Erica Trucksler、Ian Fox 和负责本季制作的 Hannah Bates。Robin Moore 创作了我们的主题音乐。我是 Amy Bernstein。今年秋天，我和 Amy Gallo 将带着更多节目回归，届时再见。

Send me your feedback by emailing women@workathbr.org. Women at work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates, who's producing this season. Robin Moore composed our theme music. I'm Amy Bernstein. You'll hear from me and Amy Gallo in the fall when we're back with more episodes.

与此同时，请订阅《Women at Work》通讯，访问 hbr.org/newsletters。也可以收听其他 HBR 播客，它们旨在帮助你管理自己、你的团队和你的组织。在 hbr.org/podcasts 查找，或在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你正在使用的任何应用里搜索 HBR。

In the meantime, subscribe to the Women at Work newsletter by going to hbr.org/newsletters. And listen to the other HBR podcasts that are there to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts, or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whatever app you're using right now.