让我们聊聊自己的失败

毕马威通过创造价值来成就不同，比如开发战略洞见助力并购成功，或将人工智能解决方案融入您的业务以维持竞争优势。毕马威，成就不同。了解更多请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.

我现在不再沉湎于失败，因为我明白，每一次失败——其中一些堪称灾难，差点断送职业生涯——走出来后，至少都让我对他人更有同理心。

I don't dwell in failure now because I've learned that every single failure I've ever had, and some of them have been doozies and potential career enders, I've come out of them, if nothing else, more empathetic toward others.

嗯。您能再跟我们多讲讲吗？

Yeah. Well, can you tell us a little bit more about

关于一次失败吗？好的。我正在收听《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》节目。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。

about one. Yeah. I just You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein.

我是艾米·加洛。今天和我们一起的还有前联合主持兼好友萨拉·格林·卡迈克尔，她是少数几位我们愿意与之回顾职业失败的人之一。

I'm Amy Gallo. We're here with our former cohost and friend, Sarah Green Carmichael, who's one of the very few people we feel comfortable enough revisiting our professional failures with.

但我们也知道她会逼我们，她会挑战我们的思路。

But we also know she is going to push us. She's going to test our thinking.

对，还会引入研究发现。

Yeah. And bring in research findings.

并制造一些高潮时刻。

And build up to some moments.

天哪，别给我压力啊。真高兴你们一想到失败就想到我。

Oh my god. No pressure, guys. I'm so glad that when you thought of failure, you

就想到了你。

thought of me.

不。我们只是知道你会带来诚实，也会带来人性。

No. We just knew that you would bring you would bring the honesty, but you'd also bring the humanity.

我会尽力。那么，我们为什么要重温那些出错、我们觉得出错或别人告诉我们出错的时候？失败通常是主观的，并非一个人的错。但人们对待女性的方式常常让我们注定失败，或让我们相信只能怪自己。他们不切实际的期望、不存在或毫无用处的反馈、对我们信心的低估，都会带来巨大压力和焦虑，以至于我们确实有时会表现不佳。

I'll do my best. So why are we revisiting the times something's gone wrong, or we felt like it had, or someone told us it had? Failure's usually subjective and not one person's fault. But the ways people tend to treat women too often set us up to fail or leave us to believe we have only ourselves to blame. Their unrealistic expectations, their nonexistent or useless feedback, their underestimation of our confidence, causes so much stress and anxiety that we actually do sometimes underperform.

但每个人都会失败。我们不希望你对自己的失败感到不安，所以我们会谈谈自己的失败。我们也会谈一些实际问题，比如当你参与一个看起来注定要失败的项目时该怎么办，或者如果你的老板标准太高该怎么办。

But everyone fails. We don't want you to feel insecure about your failures, so we're gonna talk about ours. We're gonna talk about some practical matters too, like what to do when you're on a project that looks like it's doomed or if you're reporting to a boss whose standards are just too high.

那么，Sarah，不是故意让你为难，但你先请。

So, Sarah, not to put you on the spot, but feel free to go first.

Sarah，说说

Sarah, tell

你的失败

us about

吧。

your failures.

嗯，当我听到这个话题时，我试着想我会如何定义失败。因为我觉得它比单纯的错误更严重。我认为它必须是多次判断失误或流程错误累积成某种非常令人不快的事情。

Well, when I heard about the topic, I tried to think about how would I define a failure? Because I think it's something bigger than just a mistake. I think it has to be something where there are many either failures of judgment or process mistakes that add up to something that is deeply unpleasant

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且难以挽回。

And hard to reverse.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者可能是一个错失的机会，某个我们未能发挥潜力的地方。

Or maybe a missed opportunity, something where we fail to live up to our potential.

对。我喜欢你把错误和失败区分开来。因为我能想到我犯过的很多错误。每天。是的。

Yeah. I like that distinction between mistake and failure. Because I can think about lots of mistakes I've made. Every day. Yes.

是啊。就像在过去一小时里。但这些都不是失败。对吧？而实际上，当我想到一个特别的失败，我一会儿会分享，但它是一系列错误导致了无法挽回的结果。

Yeah. Like in the last hour. But those aren't failures. Right? And and actually, when I think about one particular failure, which I'll share in a moment, but is it was a series of mistakes that led to something that was unfixable.

对我来说，我的判断标准是‘我本该更明白’。那一刻，我受到了那种顿悟的打击。我知道那就是失败。

And for me, my filter was I should have known better. And that was the moment when, you know, I got that gut punch of recognition. I knew that was failure.

嗯。

Yeah.

好。那给我们讲一个吧。

Yeah. So okay. Tell us about one.

好的。所以在我职业经历中最明显的例子，其实是2018年离开《哈佛商业评论》后所做的决定。

Okay. So the story that really came to mind as the the most obvious example from my professional history is actually what I did right after leaving HBR in 2018.

嗯，所以

Mhmm. So

在某种程度上，我认为去《巴伦周刊》工作是个失败，因为我忽视了一些危险信号。而选错工作并不是轻易能纠正的事。你不能点一下更新或刷新就重启，对吧？要摆脱它得花些时间。

I consider, in some ways, my decision to take a job at Barron's to be a failure and that there were red flags that I overlooked. And taking the wrong job is not something that is easily rectified. You can't just sort of hit update or refresh and, like, reboot that. You know? It takes a while to get out of it.

所以先稍微铺垫一下，如果我们把思绪拉回到2018年

So just to sort of set the scene a little bit, if we go back in our minds to the 2018

嗯。

Mhmm.

我在HBR待了将近十二年后，决定是时候离开了。

I've decided it's after almost twelve years at HBR, it's time to move on.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我给我以前的一位老上司打了电话，她当时已经是《巴伦周刊》的主编。我们就从那里开始谈。我并没有四处投简历，只是给她打了个电话，然后事情就一步步推进了。你们给我办了一场超棒的告别派对，让我非常感动。

I call up an old boss of mine who's, you know, at that point was the editor in chief of Barron's. And we sort of proceed from there. I don't do a lot of I'm not like shopping around for other jobs. I just sort of call her and we sort of go from there. You guys throw me an amazing goodbye party that's very emotional for me.

然后我去了《巴伦周刊》工作，很快就发现这并不适合我——纸面上看起来一切都合理，但现实却完全不同。那是疫情前，我远程办公，而团队并不习惯有太多远程员工，所以我非常孤立。就在我刚开始有“也许我待不了太久”的念头时，我当初几乎是因为她才接受这份工作的老板告诉我她要离职了。那一刻我感觉，好吧，事情真的没按我计划的发展。

And then I start working at Barron's and like, it just becomes clear that this is not a great fit for me, that on paper it all made sense, but the reality is very different. It's before COVID and I'm working remotely at a time and in a team that's not really used to having a ton of remote workers, so I'm very isolated. And so then, as I'm starting to sort of get this feeling of like, maybe maybe maybe I won't be here very long, but I think I can do what maybe I've set out to do. At that point, my boss, who who was like 90% of the reason that I took that job, tells me that she's moving on. And that's sort of when it feels like, okay, I've this really has not worked out as I had planned.

从那以后，它开始对我的情绪产生负面影响。我整天在家办公，晚上就看《权力的游戏》。

From there, it started to have actually like a pretty negative impact on my mood. I was like just working all day in my home office and watching Game of Thrones at night.

我就像在别人还没封城前就提前进入了COVID封锁状态，我就是

I was sort of in a COVID lockdown before anyone was in a COVID lockdown. I was just,

整天一个人待着，这真的很艰难。幸运的是，我很快找到了新工作，就是我在彭博观点的这份工作，现在已经干了四年，非常合适，我也很幸运。但我还记得当我要离开《巴伦周刊》加入彭博的消息公开时，一家媒体行业出版物打出了这样的标题：“格林·卡迈克尔不到一年就离开《巴伦周刊》”，哎。

like, alone all day. And and it was it was challenging. I ended up fortunately quickly finding a new job, which is my job at Bloomberg Opinion where I I've now been for four years, and it's been a great fit, and I am very lucky. But I do remember that when that news became public, you know, the news that I would be leaving Barron to join Bloomberg, there was, a media industry publication that ran a headline like, you know, Green Carmichael out at Barron's in less than a year. Oof.

我当时想，哇，我都不知道有人在关注，这太尴尬了，听起来真的很糟糕。总之，我觉得从那场美好的告别派对，到“格林·卡迈克尔不到一年就离开《巴伦周刊》”，真的让我意识到，哇，这并没有按我希望的那样发展。

And I sort of was like, wow. I didn't know anyone was paying attention, and this is awkward, and that makes it sound really bad. So anyway, I think that, like, to go from that really wonderful goodbye party to green Carmichael out at Barron's in less than a year really sort of put put some perspective, I guess, in my mind of like, wow, that that didn't work out as I had hoped.

算是吧

Sort of

骑着马奔向夕阳，结果摔了个狗啃泥

rode off into the sunset and fell flat on

我的脸。对我来说，重要的是学会不要忽视那些危险信号。

my face. Well, to me, the important thing to learn was not to ignore those red flags.

没错。事后回想，我意识到，如果你要做重大的职业决定，也许该给自己多留几个选项，对吧？

Exactly. In hindsight, I realized, like, you know, if you're gonna make a big career decision, maybe give yourself more than one option. You know?

这现实吗？我的意思是，至少做点人脉拓展。

Is that realistic? I mean, do a little networking.

是啊。如果我当时更主动一点来找你，Amy，说：我从25岁起就在HBR，现在快40了，想聊聊未来还有哪些可能，而不是自己躲到角落想‘我得离开’，结果会不会不一样？

Yeah. Like, how how would it have potentially gone differently if I had come to you, Amy, the Amy's, in a more proactive way and saying, you know what? I really think given that I started at HBR when I was 25 Mhmm. And now I'm, like, looking into the future and wondering where am I gonna be when I'm 40. Maybe we should have a bigger conversation about what else is out there, you know, instead of going off into my corner and being like, I think I need to leave.

我不想告诉任何导师或同事，只想悄悄把计划憋在心里。

I don't wanna tell any of my, like, mentors or tell anybody. I'm just gonna kind of quietly hatch this plan by myself.

你就从后门溜了。

You just stuck out the back door.

我知道。我们还喊：等等，回来！给你办个欢送会，然后你可以从希望门再溜回来。

I know. And we're like, wait. Come back. We have a goodbye party. And then you can sneak in hope door.

你要知道，有些人会把你看作比任何职业或组织都重要，明白吗？

You know that there are people who would put you before any career or organization. Right?

听你这么说真好，艾米。谢谢你。我现在好像明白了，但当时并不知道。

That's so nice to hear, Amy. Thank you. I feel like I see that now. Right. But I didn't know that at the time.

嗯，其中一个

Well, one of the

我想到的一点是，你当时被恐惧驱使，对吧？害怕因为选择离开而让同事失望。你会觉得我们会失望，或者试图劝你留下，或者认为离开本身就是一种失败。我觉得当我真的失败时，我往往是因为害怕失败而做出导致失败的决定。

things that occurs to me is that you were being driven by fear. Right? The fear of having failed your colleagues by making the choice to leave. There was this idea that we would be disappointed or try to convince you otherwise or that it was somehow a failure to even leave. And I think when I do have a failure, I often make the mistakes that lead to that failure out of fear of failing.

对吧？就是那种时刻，我想着我要防止某件事发生，于是看不到红旗，做不出正确判断，我的判断有点模糊。

Right? Like, it's this moment of, like, I'm trying to protect against something. And so therefore, I I don't see the red flags. I don't make the right calls. My judgment is a little bit cloudy.

不过，我也觉得从中得到的一个教训是，随时可以拉下救生索。当我突然陷入那种“我为什么要在这儿工作”的状态时，我来这里共事的人已经走了，我的日子变得孤立又奇怪，一切都不对劲，我就想，我要拉下救生索。

Also, though, I feel like one of the things I learned from this is, like, it's totally okay to pull the rip cord. Like, when I was suddenly in that situation where I'm like, why am I working here? The person I came here to work with is gone. My days are isolated and and weird, and none of this makes sense. I sort of was like, I'm pulling the ripcord.

我不会为了熬满一年而留下。也许那条规矩已经过时了。我觉得有一种奇怪的力量在于，你可以做出错误决定，事情可能变得非常糟糕。

I'm not staying here to serve out my year. Right. Maybe that's an outdated rule. And I I feel like there is some strange strength that comes from like, yeah, you can make the wrong decision. It can go very badly.

然后你真的可以改变处境。这不容易，也许代价不菲，但如果情况需要，你可以把桌子掀了。

And then you actually can change your situation. And it's not easy. It might not be free. It could be very costly. But you can upend the apple cart if the situation calls for it.

我的一次失败也是一次职业变动。去了一家我完全搞不懂自己角色的公司。我搞不懂我如何融入。我会对你笑，因为你知道是哪家公司。嗯。

One of my failures was also a career move. And it was to a company where I just understand my role. I didn't understand how I fit in. Never felt I'm gonna smile at you because you know what company it is. Mhmm.

我不会说我在哪儿，但我有编辑决策权，要决定什么能发、什么不能发。我当时在做一组多部分的选题。一个比我年轻、经验少的同事来找我，说，嘿，我有个想法，我们为什么不——我在我们正在用的报告里看到个东西。

I'm not gonna say where I was, but I had a role of, you know, with editorial authority. I was making decisions about what would get published and what wouldn't get published. And I was working on a multi part package. And a colleague, a younger colleague, not as experienced, came to me and said, hey, I have an idea. Why don't we I saw this thing in the report that we're working with.

我们把它拆出来发了吧？我抬了一只眼说，行，行，行，行。

Why don't we break that out and publish it? And I I kind of looked up with one eye and said, sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.

去吧。结果一发表就成了诉讼材料。

Go ahead. And when it published, it was lawsuit material.

然后

And

我做了所有那些当你意识到炸弹刚刚爆炸时会做的事，对吧？

I did all of those things that you do when you realize that a bomb just went off. Right?

我

I

我想，你知道，不是我的错。我不是那个出这主意的人。然后，九秒后，我想，完全是我的错。我同事问过我。我对此负责。

thought, you know, not my fault. I wasn't the one who had this idea. And then, you know, nine seconds later, I thought, totally my fault. My colleague asked me. I own the responsibility for this.

我本该更清楚。我本该注意。当然，如果我注意了，我绝不会说“去吧”。然后我走到我汇报的众多上级面前说，是我的错。我非常尴尬。

I should have known better. I should have paid attention. Of course, had I paid attention, I would never have said go ahead. I then marched over to the many people I reported up to and said, my fault. I am deeply embarrassed.

我对造成的麻烦感到抱歉，这确实带来了很大麻烦。

I am sorry for the trouble this is causing, and it caused a lot of trouble.

而且

And

这完全是我一个人的错，我不知道该怎么办。帮帮我，我该怎么帮忙补救？

this is no one's fault but mine, and I don't know what to do about this. Help, you know, how do I help make this better?

嗯。

Yeah.

然后我就回家了，喝了很多酒。所以

And then I I went home and drank a lot. So

你坦白之后感觉好些了吗？别搞砸了，我猜。

Did you feel better having fessed up? Don't boned up, I guess.

我现在的感觉和那时候相比已经好多了。我的意思是，在那一刻，我真的必须思考在这里做什么是正确的，因为我必须能够与自己和平相处。

I'm better so far away from what I was feeling at that time. I mean, at that point, I just really had to think about what is the right thing to do here because I have to be able to live with myself.

对。对吧？是的。我喜欢这种表达方式。听着Sarah的故事，就像，好吧，注意红旗，需要的时候把唱片停下来。

Right. Right? Yeah. I love that framing. Like, listening to Sarah's story and like, okay, pay attention to the red flags, pull the record when you need to.

我从你所说的内容中得到的一个重要启示是，一旦你认识到失败，就要承认它，并根据你的价值观行事。因为我认为失败带来的一个问题是，它挑战了我们作为有能力的女性的身份认同。我的意思是，我一直认为你是一个判断力极佳的人。

And one of the big things I'm taking away from what you're saying is once you recognize that failure, own it and act according to your values. Because that's one of the things that I think happens with failures is it challenges our identities as competent women. I mean, I think of you as someone with excellent judgment.

我的判断力很好。我只是没有运用它。我没有注意。我的错误就是没有注意。

I have excellent judgment. I just didn't exercise it. I didn't pay attention. My crime was not paying attention.

是的。对。不是判断力差。对。是的。

Yes. Right. Not poor judgment. Right. Yeah.

我认为我从你那令人痛苦的故事中得到了两点启示，

I think there's sort of two things that I take from your harrowing story,

Amy。是的。

Amy. Yeah.

我的意思是，我现在还在做噩梦，可能今晚还会做一个。所以谢谢你，Amanda。

I mean, I'm still having nightmares, and I'll probably have one tonight. So thanks, Amanda.

我认为你描述承担责任的方式，正是人们喜欢为你工作的原因之一。

I think the way that you described taking responsibility is one of the reasons people love working for you.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为换一个老板，可能会直接把那个初级同事推出去背锅。所以你没有那样做，而是直面自己的内心，这很了不起。我还觉得你当时去找比你层级更高的人，说“我怎样才能弥补？我为自己的那部分责任道歉”，这是很多人做不到的。

It's because a different boss could have thrown that junior colleague right under the bus. And so the fact that you didn't do that, that you sort of looked your own heart in the eye is big deal. And I also think the way that you went to your then the people higher than you in the hierarchy and said, how can I make this better? I'm sorry for my part in this. Like, that is something that a lot of people don't do.

他们往往会迅速把责任推给别人，或者尽量淡化自己的过错。要做到你那样真的很难。

They seek to sort of quickly shift the blame elsewhere or to minimize what they've done. That's really hard to do.

嗯，因为那种情况下你不能打也不能逃，而你的本能却告诉你只能这么做。是啊。

Well, because you can't do fight or flight in that situation. And that's what every instinct in your being tells you to do. Yeah.

所以，你不仅承认了错误，还运用了关键的情商技能——情绪自控：我很难受，可就算再难受，我也不能立刻去做那些让我好受的事，比如撒谎、假装没犯错、把责任推得更干净。艾米可能有不同看法，但我

And so not only are you owning up, you're exercising a key emotional intelligence skill of, like, emotional self control, which is recognizing I feel terrible. But even though I feel terrible, I can't give into that. I can't do the things that would make that feel better immediately, which is to lie and pretend I didn't do this thing and someone else was more at fault. Amy may dispute this, but I

我觉得，你之所以能从外部视角走进去、那样承担责任，是因为至少在我看来，你的能力从未被质疑。显然，你描述的情况只是偶发。但换一个人，或者处在职业不同阶段的人，可能更难开口，因为他们担心老板会觉得自己完全无能。

think that one of the reasons you are, from the outside, able to walk in and take ownership of a mistake in that way is because, at least from my perspective, there's not any doubts about your competence. And so clearly, the situation you describe is an aberration. But I feel like a different person or maybe a person in a different place in their career might have a tougher time having that conversation because they're worried like, ugh, you know, my bosses are gonna think I'm completely incompetent.

或者他们已经没有“信用”可透支，或者他们的老板期望高得不合理。

Or they don't have credits to burn, or their boss has unreasonably high expectations.

好吧。但在随后的情绪混乱中，我连退一步想想能力和声誉都做不到。我满脑子都是：怎么会这样？我怎么会做出这么糟糕的决定？然后我意识到，我根本没去看那份清单。

Okay. But in the emotional scramble that followed, I wasn't able to take even a quarter step back to think about competence and reputation. All I could do was to think, how did this happen? How did I make such a bad call? And then I realized I never looked at the list.

我根本没去看那份会让我们惹上麻烦的东西，我连四秒钟都没花，这是个可怕的缺陷——当你负责那些细节时却没注意。

I never looked at this thing that's gonna get us in trouble, and I didn't give it four seconds thought, which is a terrible flaw Yeah. Not paying attention when you are in charge of those details.

但我们可以聊聊这个吗？因为我觉得这是很多人都会有的感受，尤其是女性，我现在作为职场妈妈感受更深了。我无法顾及生活中的一切，有时甚至包括重要细节。我会忘记一些以前绝不会忘的事。嗯。

But can we talk about that too? Because I think that this is something that a lot of people feel, especially women, is that and I feel this more now that I'm a working mom. I don't have attention for everything in life, even important details sometimes. And I forget things in ways that I used to never. Mhmm.

这是因为我现在要记住的事情更多了。

And it's because I'm remembering so many more of them.

就像

Like

对。比如在我有孩子之前，一天大概记住100件事，现在要记150件，但同时也会忘掉20件。

Right. Probably on a given day, say, before I had kids, I remembered a 100 things. Now I'm remembering a 150 things, but I'm also forgetting 20 things.

没错。

Right.

而你，Amy，处于高级领导职位，大家一天可能来找你几十次，问：这个能帮我决定吗？那个能帮我决定吗？这边能给我意见吗？所以当一个人被拉伸到仅仅维持运转就需要极快速度的程度时，嗯。

And you are, Amy, are in, like, a a senior leadership role where people probably come to you dozens of time a day asking, can I have a decision on this? Can I have a decision on that? Can you weigh in over here? Right? So when one is stretched to a point where simply keeping up requires an enormous amount of velocity Mhmm.

你要怎么确保自己关注到每一个细节？

How do you make sure that you are paying attention to every single detail?

框架。我会做几件事。我之所以这么做，是因为我绝不想——我绝不会再犯同样的错误。我会犯——我会犯新的

The frame. So there are a couple of things you do. And I did this because I never wanted I will never make this mistake again. I'll make I'll make new

犯新的错误。

Make new mistakes.

对。可怕的新错误，但——你知道——它们会是新的。一件事是，你要问自己：这件事真的必须现在立刻完成吗？你要去问那个发给你的人。有时候晚上九点有人发我文章，说：嘿，我需要你在明天上班前读完。

Yeah. Horrific mistakes, but, you know, they'll be new. One thing is you ask yourself, does this really have to be done right this second? And you ask that of the person who sent you. I mean, sometimes people will send me articles at nine at night and say, hey, I need you to give this a read before work begins tomorrow.

我说过，我做不到。对，我做不到。我会在上午10点前完成。嗯。

And I have said, I can't. Yeah. I can't. I will do it by 10AM. Yep.

我只是设定了不同的界限。但如果你的价值观是始终尽最大努力把工作做好，那你就必须确保自己有能力做到这一点。所以，说“我没办法在下班前完成所有我以为能完成的事”并没有错。所以，我会把这些事推迟到明天。发封邮件说：我知道我答应今天下午给你。

And just I set a different boundary around it. But if your values are that you're gonna do your job to the best of your ability all the time, Then you have to make sure that you're enabling yourself to do that. So there's nothing wrong with saying, I can't get everything I thought I would get done, done by close of business. So here are the things I'm gonna put off till tomorrow. Send out a note saying, I know I promised this to you this afternoon.

我明天才能处理。你知道，大概率不会出什么事的。对吧？你只是重新设定了期望。别让它陷入沉默的深渊，因为人们会自己编故事。

I can't get to it until tomorrow. You know, chances are nothing's gonna happen. Right? You're just resetting expectations. Don't let it just go into the void of silence, because people make up their own stories.

对，对。并且要负责任。

Yeah. Yeah. And be responsible.

我会想到别人来找我承认的失败。很多时候，都是因为“我动作太快了”。

I think about the failures other people have come to me with. And so many times, it's I was moving too fast.

我动作太快了。

I was moving too fast.

没错。真正的挑战是，你能不能慢下来？我确实有个小技巧，尤其是在下午3点左右，当各种决策朝我涌来时，我会变得非常焦虑、紧张，开始过度思考。我会想：哦，不。

Exactly. The think real challenge is, like, can you slow down? And I I do have a little bit of a trick, especially at, like, 03:00 when I start getting decisions coming toward me. I get, like, really anxious and wound up and start overthinking. And I'm like, oh, no.

不，不，不。好吧，慢下来。这件事能等到上午9点吗？

No. No. Okay. Like, slow down. Can this wait till 9AM?

我需要好好睡一觉吗？如果这是一个必须做出的决定，我该如何请别人来帮我做出正确的判断？我该如何稍微放慢这个过程？我该如何把利弊列清楚？就在那一刻，关注自己的能量和反应，就能帮我避免因“太快”而导致的失败。

Do I need a good night's sleep? And if it's a decision that has to be made, how do I bring in someone else to help me make a good judgment call? How do I slow down the process a little bit? How do I just really sort of lay out the pros and cons? Just monitoring my own energy and reaction in that moment can help me avoid that failure of moving too fast.

自我调节。对。

Self regulation. Yeah.

我同意你们的看法，我也看到了放慢节奏的价值。但我喜欢你们提出这个问题的方式：这件事能不能等到明天上午9点？嗯。因为有时候真的等不了。

I I agree with you guys, and I see the value slowing down. But one of the things I like about the way you're framing this is that it is a question of, can this wait till tomorrow at 9AM? Mhmm. Because sometimes it really can't.

对。

Yeah.

那就意味着，这里的部分价值就在于速度本身。

And then it's like, well, okay. Part of the value here is the speed itself.

没错。

Right.

嗯。

Yeah.

一个现在做出的、只有80%正确或平庸的决策，价值是明天才做出的决策的两倍，对吧？

And a kind of 80% right or mediocre decision right now is worth twice as much as a decision tomorrow, you know?

对。但你有判断力去做出这个决定。你知道什么时候不做决定比做一个次优决定更糟，你一开始就明白。你还知道如何把紧急和重要区分开。

Right. But you have the discernment to make that call. You know when no decision is worse than a suboptimal decision. You know that at the outset. The other thing you know is how to separate the urgent from the important.

你的紧急是你的紧急，不是别人的紧急。所以你知道不该让别人把他们的紧急感强加给你，对吧？这对我来说是极难学会的一课。

Your urgency is your urgency. It's not everyone else's urgency. So you know not to let people impose their urgency on you. Right? And that that was a really hard lesson for me to learn.

因为我想让每个人都对我印象好。嗯。所以我得确保他们都开心。因为我就是个服务局，对吧？

Because I want everyone to think well of me. Yeah. So I needed to make sure they were all happy. Because I was a service bureau. Right?

没错。

Yep.

我们不是服务局。

We're not service bureaus.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

商业的未来会是什么？有人能发明一个水晶球吗？在此之前，已有超过42,000家企业通过甲骨文旗下的NetSuite为他们的业务做好了未来准备，这是排名第一的AI云ERP，将会计、财务管理、库存和人力资源整合到一个平台上。凭借实时洞察和预测，您能够窥见未来并抓住新机遇。免费下载《首席财务官的AI与机器学习指南》，请访问netsuite.com/women@work。

What does the future hold for business? Can someone invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 42,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one AI cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning for free at netsuite.com/women@work.

网址是netsuite.com/women@work。

That's netsuite.com/women@work.

所以我想听听Amy G的失败经历。

So I wanna hear Amy G's failure.

哦，我立刻想到了很多。但当我想到一个让我觉得“哎呀，我把这事搞砸了”的时刻，是我在一家管理咨询公司工作时。我被要求为客户准备一份提案，包括定价部分。我以前没做过定价，但我曾多次跟着老板看他怎么做。我严重低估了成本，包括我们必须支付的一个第三方供应商的费用。

Oh, so many came to mind. But the one that really I always think about when I think about a moment where I just felt like, oh, I messed this up big time, was when I was working for a management consulting firm. And I was asked to put together a proposal for a client, including aspect. And I had not done the pricing aspect before, but I had been sort of shadowing my boss while he did it quite a few times. And I wildly underestimated the cost, including the cost of a third party vendor who we had to pay.

所以当我们向客户开票时，我的老板说，等等，什么？这就是我们要向客户收取的费用？我说，是啊。结果差了一个数量级。所以我们不得不自己承担第三方供应商的费用。

So when it came time for us to bill the client, my boss was like, wait, what? This is this is what we're billing the client? I was like, yeah. And it was an order of magnitude off. So it meant we had to pay that third party vendor.

这意味着我们必须吞下这笔成本。这产生了真正的影响。我想部分原因是，因为涉及数字，我有点紧张，因为我一直为自己在学生时代数学好而自豪，但这不是我天生擅长的事。我也明白有一些刻板印象认为女性不擅长财务，我试图反驳这一点，这让我非常焦虑。

It meant we had to swallow the cost. It had a real implication. And I I think partly it it being about numbers had messed with my head a little bit because I pride myself as someone who was good at math in my, you know, school days, but it's not something I gravitate toward. And I also understood there's some stereotypes that women aren't good at finances. I was trying to sort of counter that, and that had made me really anxious.

另一件事，回想起来，实际上在我说的过程中才意识到，我觉得我也真的很想取悦客户。嗯。我想我得出这个较低的数字是因为我觉得，他们会很高兴的。我不认为我知道我错得有多离谱。这很糟糕。

The other thing in retrospect, and this is actually just occurring to me as I'm talking, is that I think I also was really trying to please the client. Mhmm. And I think I came down to this lower number because I was like, they'll be so happy about this. And I don't think I knew how off I was. It was it was bad.

这很糟糕。我记得，实际上，他们有一段时间不让我定价，这是公平的。这完全是一个公平的回应。我的意思是，后来我就非常小心了。一旦他们允许我再次做这件事，我会一遍又一遍地检查每一个数字，以确保我弄对了。

It was it was bad. And I I remember, actually, they did not let me price things for a while, which was fair. That was like a completely fair reaction. I mean, then I was so careful. Just went over and over every single number once they allowed me to do it again to be sure I had it right.

而我可能走向了另一个极端，就是高估，后来我发现在咨询行业里这其实是个更好的策略。因为当你实际收费低于预估时，客户会高兴，而你仍然能拿到应得的报酬。

And I probably aired the other way, which is to overestimate, which I learned actually was a better approach with consulting. Because then when you bill them less than what you had estimated, they're happy and you're still getting paid for the work you

嗯。

did. Mhmm.

是啊。Amy，听你讲这个故事，感觉你几乎是独自在做这个定价项目。为什么没人站在你身后说，这看起来不太对劲？

Yeah. Amy, as you're telling this story, it sounds like you were working on this pricing project almost alone. Like, why didn't someone look over your shoulder and say, that doesn't seem right.

这是个好问题。我不太确定是不是——可能我的老板当时就像Amy B在她的失败中那样，没有足够仔细地检查，只是随口说，哦，行，Amy能干，随她去吧。

It's a good question. And I'm not I don't remember exactly whether, like, my boss it might have been a situation where my boss was doing what Amy B did in her failure, which is was like not checking closely enough being like, oh, sure. Sure. Amy's competent. Like, whatever.

她能搞定的。而事后看来，我对自己完成这件事的能力过于自信。所以我肯定表现出一副不需要帮忙的样子，好像在说，哦，我见过他做无数次了。

Like, she'll she'll get it right. And I I was overconfident in retrospect about my ability to do it. So I'm sure I projected that I did not need help. That I was that I was like, oh, yeah. I've seen him do this a zillion times.

我参与过类似的项目，我知道那花了多少钱。我真希望能回到过去，弄清楚数字到底在哪一步出了问题，但当时我不觉得自己需要帮助。后来在下一次做提案时，我吸取了这个教训，真的会去请教别人。那时我的老板也确实会盯着我。

I've I've been on a similar project. I know how much that cost. I wish I could go back and, like, remember exactly where the numbers got messy, but I didn't feel like I needed help. And and then that that was something I took into the next time I did a proposal, was really asking for people. And my boss was, at that point, looking over my shoulder for sure.

但我也去问那些同样在学这项技能的同事：你们是怎么做的？这些数字你们怎么填？怎么计算的？不过，这真不是数学错误，而是判断错误，也正是这一点让它从一个小失误升级为一次失败。

But I also was asking peers who are learning the same skill, how are you doing this? What are you putting in for these numbers? How are you making the calculations? But it wasn't it it really wasn't a math error. I think it was a judgment error, which is what elevates it from a mistake to a failure.

因为无论如何都会有后果。但如果我能说，哦，我把这些数字搞混了，那其实很容易补救。还有一个后果是我们不能完全自己承担损失，所以我老板不得不回去找客户，解释发生了什么，承认是我犯了错，然后重新谈判。

Because, of course, it would have had consequences regardless. But if I could have just been like, oh, I switched these numbers. Like, that would have been a very simple thing to sort of recover from. You know, one of the consequences also was that we couldn't really eat the cost completely. So my boss then had to go back to the client, explain what happened, admit I had made a mistake, right, and renegotiate.

最后我们并没有各让一半，但客户愿意在原报价基础上再稍微加一点——这很尴尬。

And and agree to sort of meet not in the middle, but we the client was willing to give a little bit more than than we had a price to that. That's awkward.

天哪，听起来真难受。是啊。

Oh gosh. That sounds really painful. Yes.

然后我还得继续工作，我是说，那是一个进行中的项目，所以我得继续跟他们合作。

And then I had to work I mean, it was an ongoing project, so I had to continue to work with them.

天啊。

Oh god.

我……我听出你们俩讲的故事里有一个共同点，就是讨好别人只会带来不幸。你不能总是立刻给所有人答复，也不能总是给超低报价，对吧。

I I'm hearing a sort of common thread between the two stories that you guys have shared, which is that people pleasing is the path to unhappiness. You know, you cannot give everyone quick answers all the time. You cannot give everyone a super low price all the time. Right.

那条路通向失败和痛苦。我想到的另一场失败正好相反，因为那件事我已经做过无数次了。今年夏天我有个演讲，这种活儿我接过很多次，于是就开始有点偷工减料。

That way lies failure and pain. The other failure that came to mind is sort of the opposite, and that it was something I had done a zillion times. Like, I had a a speaking gig this summer. It's something I've done a bunch of times. So I just sort of started to cut corners a little bit.

比如，我没花太多时间准备，也没去了解主办方。和客户协调时间时还出了点小岔子，但我想，‘哦，我做过这么多次，没事的。’

Like, I didn't spend as much time prepping. I didn't find out enough about the organization. There were a couple snafus with timing and coordinating with the client. But I was like, oh, I've done this. It'll be fine.

结果一上台，五分钟之内我就意识到，‘糟了，这不对劲。’只看到台下表情呆滞、眉头紧锁，好像在说‘她在讲啥？’过去这几年我的演讲反馈一直特别好，觉得自己真的找到了擅长的事。可那一刻完全翻车，根本没法回头。

And then I got up on stage, and within five minutes, I was like, oh, this is not going well. Like, just saw the, like, flat faces, the wrinkled brows of like, what what is she talking about? And I I've been very lucky in my speaking work in that I've been getting amazing feedback the past few years. It feels like I really found something I'm good at. And to have that just like moment where there was no turning back.

我站在几百人面前，知道搞砸了，该怎么办？

I'm on a stage in front of hundreds of people. I know it's not going well. What do I do?

你跑啊，直接跑。

You run. You just run.

我确实想过，要不直接坐下哭一场，这事就结束了。是啊……不过回头一看，其实一路上有好多信号：我偷工减料、忽视红旗，比如议程安排有问题，我出场的位置根本不合理，也没人介绍我。

It did occur to me. Like, I could just sit down and cry, and this would all be over. Yeah. No. But there's so many steps along the way that I now see where I was either cutting corners, not paying attention to red flags, because there was some issues like about the agenda and where I showed up in the agenda that didn't make sense about how I was gonna be introduced.

我甚至没问‘谁来介绍我？我的遥控器在哪？’这些我过去都会确认的细节这次全忽略了，以为能临场发挥，结果不行，客户也不满意。

I didn't even ask, oh, how are you who's gonna introduce me? Where's my clicker? I didn't like, all those things that I had just sort of let slide because I thought I'd be able to wing it. I didn't. And and the client was unhappy.

确实如此。那是我第一次真正得到反馈，哦，是的，那次表现不佳。

Fair enough. And it was the first time I really got the feedback of like, oh, yeah, that didn't go well.

哦。实际上，这

Oh. And actually, this

这就是我心里知道效果不好的方式。但你试图安慰自己，可能比我以为的要好。可我知道有人后来在LinkedIn上发了帖子。那场活动有三位演讲者，他们对第一位说：你太棒了，让我们大开眼界。

was this was how I knew in my gut, it didn't go well. But you try to do the like, it was probably better than I thought. But what I knew was someone posted on LinkedIn later. There were three speakers at this event, and they had put you know, said to the first speaker, like, you were amazing. You blew our minds.

第二位我记不清了，然后写的是：Amy Gallo，听你讲话挺有意思的。

And there was I can't remember what the second was. And then it was like, Amy Gallo, it was interesting to hear you talk.

天啊。哦不，你能想象吗？哦，我当时想，原来你也去了。

Oh, man. Oh, no. Can you imagine? Oh, I was like, you were there too.

还有Amy Yella。

And Amy Yella.

Amy，没错。你得了参与奖。我当时想

Amy yeah. You got the participation prize. Like, I was like

哦，不。别这样。

Oh, no. No.

是啊。真的很糟。

Yeah. It was it was bad.

但你会从中学到东西。不过我们也得承认，你演讲次数那么多，总会有搞砸的时候。对吧？

But, you know, you learn from it. But can we just also you give a lot of speeches. Some of them are gonna bomb. Yeah. You know?

有时候我觉得我们对自己太苛刻了，总是在找教训。我怎样才能避免那样？怎样才能做得更好？有时候，事情就是不会成功。是啊。

And sometimes I think we're so hard on ourselves, and we're always looking for a lesson. How could I have avoided that? How could it have gone better? And it's sometimes, it just doesn't work out. Yeah.

你明白吗？

You know?

嗯，这真有趣。我一直在观察我们三个都在这样做。就像当我们中的一个人对另一个人说，没事的。但那并不是我们对自己的内心对话。

Well, and it's it's so funny. I watch I've been watching all three of us do this. It's like when one of us tells the other, we're like, it's okay. It but has been that's not the self talk.

不是。不是。

No. No.

对吧？没有那种自我安慰。你知道，我有一部分试图告诉自己，没事的，没事的。但我记得我给朋友发了短信。

Right? There's no talk. Like, you know, there was part of me that tried to be like, it's okay. It's okay. But I remember texting my friend.

我觉得那件事进行得非常糟糕。她是个好朋友，因为她会说，哦，是啊，出了什么问题？她不会像，我相信其实没那么糟。她不会那样说，因为承认失败是可以的。

I think that went really, really poorly. And she's a good friend because she was like, oh, yeah. What what went wrong? Like, she wasn't like, I'm sure it was better. She didn't do any of that because it's okay to just say I failed.

我确实失败了。是的，有些会搞砸，但不是因为十中一的概率，而是因为我没有做我知道该做的事。

Like and I did. Like, yes, some are gonna bomb, but they're not bombing because one out of 10, they're bomb they're bombing because I didn't do the things I know to do.

是啊。我有个问题，稍微换个话题。我们大多讨论的是能明确指出自己失败之处的情况。我们还没真正谈到那种集体失败，我们是一个大项目的一部分，也许不完全是我们的错，然后事情就没成。

Yeah. I have a question, and it's a slight shifting of gears. We mostly have talked about things where we can pinpoint a place that we failed. We have not really talked about a group failure where we were part of a bigger project, and maybe it wasn't entirely our fault. And then, like, the thing didn't work.

不过，A，B，B，也许你的情况里，好像有更多……不。

Although, a, b, b, maybe yours there were, like it sounds like there were maybe more No.

是我。但我确实记得参与过一个团队项目，我刚进这家公司时，大家都说，这是个2200万美元的项目，是个网站。我记得看了他们目前的成果。而他们目前的成果就是一个空白页面和一个会开关的奇怪抽屉。

It was me. But I have been part of a group project that I remember I came into this company, and everyone said, you know, this is a $22,000,000 project. It was a website. And I remember looking at what they had so far. And what they had so far was a blank page and a weird drawer that opened and closed.

它发出了那种声音。然后这

And it made it made that sound. And this

花了1100万来让它

had 11,000,000 for it to

打开，再花1100万让它关闭。

open and 11,000,000 for it to close.

我一直在问，那是干嘛的？开发者回答说，随你便。我记得我当时想，我刚跳上一列即将脱轨坠入峡谷的火车。就是那种感觉。

And I kept saying, what's that for? And the developer responded, whatever you want. I remember thinking I just hopped on a train that's about to tumble off the tracks and into the ravine. That's how it felt.

嗯，嗯。那我们能聊聊吗，比如当你感觉到失败即将来临，担心无法让火车回到正轨时，你该怎么办？或者脱轨之后，你知道，大老板进来说，我们为什么在那个愚蠢的抽屉上花了2200万？然后就开始互相指责，就像一群不会开枪的帮派。

Yeah. Yeah. So can we talk like, what do you do in that situation if you sense the impending failure coming and you're worried you can't get the train onto the right track? Or then after the derailment, you know, the big boss comes in and says, why do we spend 22,000,000 on that stupid drawer or whatever? Then there's all the the finger pointing of the gang that can't shoot straight.

比如，如果可能的话，你如何阻止它发生？然后你又如何应对这种情况？

Like, how do you stop it from happening if you can, and how do you then respond to the situation?

嗯，我的情况是我无法阻止它。嗯，我只是在途中被带上车的。嗯，停止这个比喻。

Well, my case, there was no way I could stop it. Yeah. I was just sort of brought on board Yeah. Mid trip. Stop this metaphor.

但，你知道，我不知道。我所做的就是说实话。我就说，嗯，我从未真正明白那些钱都花到哪去了。而且，嗯，等我到这里时，已经无能为力了。

But, you know, I don't know. What I did was I just told the truth. I just said, yeah. I never quite understood where all that money went. And, yeah, by the time I got here, there was nothing I could do.

嗯。你知道，有一件事我我个人没有做过，但我看到别人做过，当你在一个正在沉没的项目船上时，会说，哦，让我们退一步，提醒自己我们试图实现什么。

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I I don't think I've personally done, but I've seen others do when you're on the sort of sinking ship of a project, is to say, oh, let's step back and remind ourselves what we're trying to achieve.

对。

Right.

对吧？而且最好一开始就达成一致，确定衡量成功的标准。但说实话，我们有多少次真的做到了？

Right? And just like agree because ideally, you agree on a measure of success upfront. But let's be honest, how many times do we really do that?

或者说，这个衡量标准真的有意义吗？

Or or the measure's really meaningful?

对。就是要退一步说，好吧，我们到底想实现什么？我们实现了吗？如果没有，我们需要做哪些调整？

Right. And it's just to step back and say, okay, what are we trying to achieve? Are we achieving it? If we're not, what adjustments do we need to make?

而且，你知道，存在沉没成本谬误。它阻止人们去问，我们做的这件事真的对吗？嗯。这真的是我们想要推向世界的东西吗？是啊。

And, you know, there is that sunk cost fallacy. It's what prevents people from asking, you know, are we doing the right thing here? Mhmm. Is this really what we wanna be putting out into the world? Yeah.

问出那些会颠覆整个项目的问题，需要很大的勇气。

Asking those questions that are just gonna upend the entire project. That takes a lot of courage to ask those questions.

但这也有挑战性，因为有时候你有一个团队，每隔几周就有人问这个问题。

It's also challenging though, because there are times when you have a team full of people, every few weeks someone asks that question.

嗯。

Yeah.

结果项目进展非常缓慢，或者走得很曲折。

And as a result, the project really moves very slowly or in a zigzagging fashion.

但我觉得还有一点要明确，我们一起承担荣誉或责任。

But I think the other thing is to make sure it's clear we're getting credit or blame together.

对。

Right.

对吧？因为我觉得很多事情之所以一拖再拖，是因为没人愿意说，这个抽屉没用。对吧？因为那就成了，那是谁的错？是开发者的错吗？

Right? Because I think the reason so many things just sort of go on and on and on is no one's willing to say, this drawer is useless. Right? Because then it's like, well, who's at fault? Is it the developer?

是你接手的那个人吗？

Is it the person who you took over to?

是UX，是工程。对，项目脱轨有很多原因。

It's UX. It's engineering. Right. It's yeah. And there are a lot of reasons projects go off the rails.

很糟糕。

It's bad.

天哪，对。我也觉得，通常那个直接指出问题的人并不会因为贡献而受到感谢。不会。对。

Oh my goodness. Yeah. I do also think that usually the person who really bluntly points out what's wrong is not thanked for their contribution. No. Yeah.

但同时，这真的很有价值，或者成为那个说，你知道吗？这次延期是因为伯莎总是交东西晚。团队里其他人都准时，而伯莎，她又晚又没条理，影响了我们所有人。我们被教导不要把彼此推下车，但有时我确实觉得问责很重要。

But at the same time, it's really valuable or to be the person who's like, you know what? The reason this is late is because Bertha keeps turning in her stuff late. Everyone else in the team is on time. And that Bertha, like, she's late and disorganized, and it's affecting all of us. And I think we're taught not to throw each other under the bus, but there are times when I I do think accountability is important.

必须找到一种方式，也能诚实面对这些事情。

There has to be some way to kind of be honest about those things too.

哦，但我听到这个就起鸡皮疙瘩。我是说，我支持直接诚实的对话。你可以说得更委婉，艾米。但我对“伯莎没交东西”这种说法感到不适。

Oh. But that I cringe at that. I mean, I I'm a fan of direct honest conversation. You can make it more tactful, Amy. But but I cringe at the like, birth is not handing in the thing.

因为很可能不是伯莎懒。不是那样，对吧？是某种动态在起作用。伯莎的老板可能不让她花足够时间在这上面。也许她其实不知道项目的目标是什么，只是随意做她的部分。

Because it chances are, it's not that Bertha's lazy. It's not that right? There's some dynamic going on. Bertha's boss isn't allowing her to spend enough time on this. Maybe she doesn't actually know what the goal of the project is, and she's just sort of doing her part willy nilly.

对吧？谁知道呢？所以我觉得必须有一种集体讨论，看看发生了什么，我们怎么把它拉回正轨，或者需要改变什么。可以说，你知道，伯莎，东西好像交得晚，为什么？

Right? Who knows? And so I think there has to be sort of a collective discussion of what is happening and how do we get it back on track or what what needs to change. And it can be okay to say, you know, birth things seem to be coming in late. Why is that?

但很少真的只有一个失败点。没错。

But there's rarely ever one point of failure. Exactly.

没错。这样想会轻松得多。

Exactly. It's so much easier to think there is.

天哪，要是伯莎能赶紧振作起来，那就简单多了。

Oh my gosh. It would be way easier if Bertha would just get her act together.

等等，我有个问题。你说很少只有一个失败点。

Okay. Wait. I have a question. Yeah. You said there's rarely one point of failure.

可在你自己的故事里，你却说，不，我就是那个失败点。

But then in your own story, were like, no. I was the point of failure.

但那不是项目，那是

But that wasn't a project. That was

不是项目，我想。但我只是觉得我们好像更愿意把失败归咎于自己这个单一的点，而不是那个虚构的伯莎。而且，伯莎是虚构的，她不是我朋友。

It wasn't. I guess. But I'm just I think that we're very we seem to be more comfortable blaming ourselves as a single point of failure than this fictional Bertha. And like, look, Bertha is a made up person. She's not a friend of mine.

所以

So like

她现在肯定不是了，那是肯定的。

Well, isn't now. That's for sure.

不，但这很好

No. But that's a good

说到点子上了，Sarah，因为我会想到那次不太顺利的演讲。我想承认这一点。然后我也会想到其他很多人，他们并没有帮我为成功做好准备。

point, Sarah, because like, I think about the speaking gig that did not go so well. I wanna own that. And then I also think about the many other people who are involved who did not help to set me up for success.

我也觉得我们被训练成不去归咎于谁，而是去提炼教训。

I also think that we're kind of trained not to assign fault, but to extract lessons.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们怎样才能下次不再犯这个错误呢？对吧？是的。我们不太愿意指责别人。不过，我对此还挺庆幸的。

How do how are we not gonna make this mistake next time? Right? Yep. We're uncomfortable pointing fingers. And I'm kind of glad about that, though.

我在想，也许这也让惯犯得以继续犯错。

I wonder if maybe it also allows repeat offenders to continue offending.

或者说，如果你知道团队里有人总是错过截止日期，也许你会想，好吧，这个人需要用不同的方式管理。我们得每天跟他开站会，让他汇报进度，或者采取别的办法。我觉得如果我们太犹豫去指出问题，就永远找不到解决方案。是啊。

Well or I think if you know why someone on the team keeps missing their deadlines, maybe you're like, okay. This person needs to be managed differently. We need to have, with that person a daily stand up where we ask for a progress report or, you know, whatever. I feel like if we're too hesitant to point fingers, then you never get to what the solution is. Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

至少对我个人来说，把观察到的问题说出来，就能从焦虑中解脱出来。还有一点，当我所在的团队开始失败时，即使我不是负责人，我也会觉得是自己的责任。哪怕我只是团队里最微不足道的一员，我也会想，为什么我不能让情况变好？为什么我不能拯救这个团队？与其这样，我们何不做那个说出真相的人：事情进展得并不顺利？

At least for me personally, just airing what what I'm observing as going on can be so freeing from the anxiety. The other thing I when I'm on a team that's starting to fail is I feel personally responsible even if I'm not leading that team. I could be the smallest player on that team, and I'm like, why can't I make this better? Why can't I save this? Instead of doing that, what if we were the truth tellers of this is not going well?

对吧？存在这样一种动态。我还不确定具体是什么，但肯定有问题，我们需要谈谈。

Right? There's this dynamic. I don't know exactly what it is, but something's going on, and we need to talk about it.

是啊。开场白可以是：我们能不能都承认，事情进展得并不顺利？嗯。

Yeah. And starting the conversation that begins with, can we all agree this is not going well? Mhmm.

嗯，我想问

Mhmm. I wanna ask

你关于标准对齐的问题。因为我觉得有时候我的标准比我的经理还高，我觉得这是个大失败。而我的老板却说，不，不，不。

you about that alignment. Because I think there are times when either my standards have been higher than my managers, and I feel like this is a huge failure. And my boss is like, no. No. No.

进展非常好，我们学到了很多。不过我觉得反过来也会让人很有压力，如果你的老板标准看起来高得不合理，而你总是达不到，那会感觉危险，好像我要丢工作了。

It's going really well. We're learning so much. And I I think the flip side also, though, can be very threatening if your boss seems like their standards are unreasonably high and you're constantly falling short. That can feel dangerous. Like, I'm gonna lose my job.

所以我在想，如果你的标准和老板不一致，嗯，我们该怎么处理？对，这有点像冲突问题。

So I'm just wondering, like, if your standards are not aligned with your boss Mhmm. How do we deal with that? Yeah. It's a conflict question, kind of.

对，完全是冲突，关于成功长什么样。

Yeah. Totally conflict. Over what success looks like.

嗯。

Yeah.

对，我觉得其中一个错误是，在所有职场动态中，我们总认为必须拥有共同的世界观才能继续前进，对吧？

Yeah. I think that one of the mistakes is that we in all sort of workplace dynamics is this belief that we have to have a shared world view Right. To move forward. Right. Right?

其实不需要，我们只需要同意继续推进。有时你和老板意见不合，这没关系，只要这种情况不是每次都发生。你提到老板标准高得不合理该怎么办，我觉得有一点很重要：不要把成败定义在他们的标准上。

We don't. We have to just agree to move forward. And sometimes, you and your boss may not see eye to eye, and that's okay. As long as that's not happening every single time. I think your question about, like, the unreasonably high standards from a boss and how do you do that.

因为如果你拼命去满足那些标准，你会把自己逼疯，还会因为不敢冒必要的风险而阻碍自己的成功。所以你得告诉自己，好，我会尽力取悦她若干次，但我也要有自己的标准，并用它来评估。

I think one of the things you have to unhook yourself from defining success or failure based on their standards. Because you will drive yourself up a wall Mhmm. Trying to meet those standards, and you'll hold yourself back from taking the risks you probably need to take in order to succeed. So you have to tell yourself, yes. Okay.

如果你的目标是不犯错、只是取悦老板，而你的老板又很苛刻，那你就是在把自己往失败里推，左也失败，右也失败。

I will try to please her x number of times, but I also have to have my own standards and evaluate against that. And if your if your goal is to make no mistakes and just please your boss, If you have a an exacting boss, you're setting yourself up to fail Oh, left, right, and center.

我是说，你知道吗，Amy，你说这个真有意思，因为我回头去听了2018年关于完美主义的那期节目

I mean, you know, it's funny that you say that, Amy, because I went back to the episode, I think, from 2018 about perfectionism

嗯。

Mhmm.

作为这期节目的准备。那是一期好节目。Alice Boys 有一个观点，我觉得五年前那期节目里我根本没真正理解，讲的是不要把别人的标准内化。

As part of my preparation for this episode. And It's a good episode. Alice Boys had a point that I actually don't think I understood five years ago in that episode that was about not internalizing other people's standards.

对。

Yeah.

嗯。我又听了一遍，我当时想，哦。

Mhmm. And I listened to it again, and I was like, oh.

原来她是这个意思。

That's what she meant.

我现在听出来的感觉不一样了。我觉得这正说明，你不想把别人那些不合理的要求内化。对，那不是你的标准。你可以想办法在那个环境里工作，同时在那些标准和你的内心之间建一道健康的小墙，我觉得。

I'm sort of hearing that in a different way now. And I think it goes to that that you don't wanna internalize the unreasonable standards of other people. Yeah. They're not your standards. You can figure out how to work in that environment while just creating a healthy little wall there between you and those standards, I think.

就是

That's

这样。希望如此。稍微抽离一点。

right. I hope. A little bit of detachment.

对。而且我觉得，当别人觉得你失败了而你自己并不这么觉得时，这种抽离也有帮助。那道墙会很有用。再说一遍，你不需要和别人共享世界观才能继续前进。

Yeah. Well, and I think that detachment also helps when others think you've failed and you haven't. You don't feel that same way. Is that that wall can be really helpful. Again, no you don't have to have a shared worldview to move forward.

毕马威通过创造价值来彰显不同，比如开发战略洞见以推动并购成功，或将人工智能解决方案嵌入您的业务以维持竞争优势。毕马威，彰显不同。了解更多请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.

我们能聊聊如何从失败中恢复吗？

Can we talk a little bit about recovering from failure?

可以。我们开始吧。好的。

Yes. Let's do it. Okay.

Amy B，你想先开始吗？

Do you wanna start, Amy B?

嗯，首先得把自己从地板上‘刮’起来。你知道，我并不擅长快速反弹。不过，回想我那个重大失败——发表了不该发表的内容——我靠的是……我了解自己，我知道自己会在自我鞭笞阶段徘徊很久很久，而意识到这一点并不会帮到我。

Well, it starts with scraping yourself off the floor. You know, I don't know. I am no expert at the bouncing back thing. Although, if I think back to the story I told about my big failure, where I published something I shouldn't have published. I did it by just I know myself, and I know that I can linger in the sort of the self flagellation portion of recovery for a long, long time, and recognizing that wouldn't help me.

所以我专注于能做些什么让问题消失。于是我和律师合作，认真向自己总结从中学到了什么。说实话，这时候我只能‘假装没事直到真的没事’。我必须表现得一切都会好起来，直到我真的相信一切都会好起来。

And so I really focused on what I could do to make this problem go away. So working with our attorney, really articulating to myself what I'd learned from it. And honestly, this was where I I just had to sort of fake it till I made it. I really had to act like it was all gonna be okay until I felt it was all gonna be okay.

是的，这很有意思。我觉得恢复有两个重要方面：一是重建自信，二是修复声誉。对我来说，我会想到那次演讲活动的教训：我需要承认自己确实有一部分责任，其他人也有责任。我还得建立系统——我列了一张清单，写下当时没做到的事，并告诉自己下次绝不跳过这些步骤。

Yeah. That's interesting. And I think there are two aspects, important aspects to the recovery. One is redeveloping your confidence.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以现在我真的有一套系统，确保那种事不会再发生。下一次的表现就好多了。这既恢复了我的自信，也完善了我的流程。但我也必须向客户坦诚我的责任并道歉。

And then also recovering your reputation. For me, I think about this speaking gig issue of like, I needed to acknowledge that I played a part in this. Other people played a part as well. And I also had to, like, create systems. I actually made a check list of the things I didn't do in that situation that I was like, I'm not gonna skip these things next time.

是的，这样我就既恢复了自己的信心和系统，也对客户负起责任并道歉。

Yeah. And so I actually now have a system so that that won't happen again. And my next one was much better. So that was the sort of recovery for my own confidence and my own systems. But I also then had to really own up to the client for my part in it and apologize.

道歉是有风险的，因为这等于承认了失败。嗯。然而，这感觉像是正确的事，因为我不想让客户以为我觉得那算是好作品。

There was risk in apologizing because it was admitting to the failure. Mhmm. And yet, it felt like the right thing to do because I didn't want the client to think that I thought that was good work.

对。

Right.

我没有列出一堆借口，只是说，你知道的，我很抱歉。她也承认了她在这件事上的责任，我觉得这真的——这让我们俩都能从那一刻恢复过来。而且我觉得这有助于我的声誉。

And I didn't give a litany of excuses and just say, you know, I'm sorry. And and she owned up to her part in it as well, which I think was really it it was helpful for us to both sort of recover from that moment. And I think it helped my reputation.

听到你这么说道歉的事，我真的很高兴，因为我知道这感觉有风险，而且真的很难。与此同时，如果它是真诚且发自内心的，它会让人耳目一新，嗯，而且实际上会让人们更想和你合作，我觉得。

I'm so glad to hear you say that about apologizing because I know it feels risky and it feels really hard. At the same time, it can be so refreshing if it's heartfelt and sincere Mhmm. And actually makes people wanna work with you more, I think.

而且，你也知道，萨拉，你谈到它有多让人耳目一新。但是，你得进行多少情绪上的折腾才能不断给自己找借口，这比道歉带来的宣泄要累人多了。

And also, you know, you're talking about how refreshing it is, Sarah. But, you know, the emotional gymnastics you have to go through to keep making excuses to yourself are so much more exhausting than the catharsis of apology.

嗯，而且也要从对方的角度想一想。就像，有什么比一个人搞砸了还一直试图狡辩更烦人的呢？

Well, and think about it from the other person's point of view too. It's like, what is more annoying than someone who's messing up and keeps sort of trying to weasel out of it?

嗯，你怎么能信任那个

Well, how do you trust that

人？嗯，

person? Well,

而且这会损害信任。

and it damages the trust.

是的。没错。嗯，这是一个有趣的角度。因为失败在某种程度上就是信任的违背，对吧？

Yeah. That's right. Well, and that's an interesting frame. Because failure in a way is a breach of trust. Right?

我信任你去做这件事，但你没有做。所以现在你必须重建那份信任。我觉得，正如我们之前提到的，当你拥有良好声誉时会容易得多，对吧？就像那个咨询项目低估的情况，我确实还有信誉可以消耗。

I trusted you to do this, and you didn't do it. And so now you have to restore that trust. And I think, as we've mentioned earlier, it's so much easier when you have a strong reputation. Right? Like that consulting underestimating the project, I did have credits to burn.

嗯。

Yeah.

对吧？我在其他工作中表现得很好，所以当你觉得自己处于劣势时会难一点。

Right? I had done great on other things in my work with them. So it's a little harder when you feel like you're you're on the nice.

是的。关于恢复，我想强调一点：尤其在商业和管理领域，商业和管理思想领导力圈子里，我们常常把韧性说成是一种个人特质，就像毅力或坚持不懈。但实际上，心理学研究把韧性视为一种群体活动。如果你是一个坚韧的人，你可能脚下是厚冰。

Yeah. The one point I wanted to make about bouncing back is I think especially in business and management, the business and management thought leadership world, we talk a lot about resilience as like a personal characteristic. Like, it's sort of like grit or perseverance. But actually, there's psychological research on resilience as a kind of group activity. Like, if you are a resilient person, you probably have thick ice.

你不是在薄冰上，而是在厚冰上。你可能有一个支持你的家庭，可能有一些经济资源来抵消失败带来的财务成本，也有心理资源，因为也许你是在充满爱的家庭中长大的。

You are not on thin ice. You are on thick ice. You probably have a maybe a supportive family. You have maybe some financial resources to help defray whatever the financial costs of of your failure. You have psychological resources because maybe you were raised in a loving home.

我觉得我们对此思考得还不够。我们常常谈论东山再起，好像必须靠自己拉自己一把。但实际上，我认为你的支持网络、导师、同事，甚至工作之外能带给你快乐的事物——爱好、友谊、让你有意义感的人际关系——都很重要，这样即使工作真的很糟糕，你仍然拥有坚定的自我感。我觉得所有这些都会促进你从失败中恢复的韧性。

And I don't think that we think about that enough. I think we talk a lot about sort of bouncing back as if you have to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. But I actually think that some things about, you know, your support network, your mentorship, your colleagues, actually even having things outside of work that bring you joy, hobbies, friendships, relationships that give you meaning so that even if work is actually going really badly, you still have a strong sense of self. I think all these things also contribute to resilience in your ability to recover from failure.

嗯。我在想你们

Yeah. I think about do you

知道

do you guys know what

平衡板吗？它有点像，把滑板顶部放在一个圆柱上，你要努力保持平衡不让它翻倒。我们家有一个，我在家里以玩得最差出名，真的糟糕。我们会给我计时。

a balance board is? It's sort of like, yeah, like a almost like at the top of a skateboard on this, like, cylinder, and you're trying to balance without it tipping. And we have one. In my in my family, I was had the reputation of being the worst at it, like, really terrible. I could like, we would time me.

我在上面坚持不到三秒。今年夏天我下定决心，我说我一定要搞定它。有一次我女儿看着我说：关键不是保持平衡，而是从失衡中恢复。

I couldn't be up on it for more than three seconds. And I was determined this summer. I was like, I'm gonna figure this out. And my daughter looked at me one time and said, it's not about balancing. It's about recovering from imbalance.

这完全改变了我的看法。我觉得，在某种程度上，我们谈论的并不是你是否会失败。你会失败。关键在于你如何走出失败，这决定了别人如何看待你、如何感知你，以及你对自己自信心的感受。

And that completely changed my perspective. And I feel like, in a way, what we're talking about is not about whether you fail or not. You are going to fail. It's about how you recover from the failure that determines how you're seen, how you're perceived, and how you feel about your own Mhmm. Confidence.

是的。试图避免失败只会阻碍你的职业发展。

Yeah. Trying to avoid failure will only stunt your career growth.

对。

That's

没错。而且你知道吗？你会感觉不好。这是无法避免的。但在那种不好的感觉中，也希望有很多自我反思。

right. Also, you know what? You're gonna feel bad. There's just no way around it. But in that in that bad feeling, there's also a lot of self reflection, I hope.

是的。我想到了克里斯汀·内夫关于自我慈悲的研究，其中有三个要点。第一是承认自己的感受，就像你刚才说的，艾米B，比如我感觉不好，我对此感到焦虑，我感到尴尬，无论是什么感受。

Yeah. I think about Kristen Neff's research on self compassion, and there's like three pieces of it. One is acknowledging the feelings, exactly what you were just saying, Amy B, of like, I feel bad. I feel anxious about this. I feel embarrassed, whatever you feel.

第二是承认人性的共通性。对吧？我不是第一个在这方面失败的人，也绝不会是最后一个。我们都会犯错。

The second is acknowledging the humanity. Right? I'm not the first person who failed at this. I certainly am not the last person who's going to fail at this. We all make mistakes.

我们都会经历失败。第三是用友善的方式与自己对话。就像你可能会对犯错的朋友说话那样。而不是说，你怎么能这样？你真是个白痴，而是说，好吧。

We all have failures. And then the third is talking to yourself in a kind way. Like, the way you might talk to your friend about the mistake they made. So instead of like, how could you do that? You're such an idiot of like, alright.

接下来你想怎么做？对吧？你想如何从中恢复？

Like, what do you wanna do next? Right? How do you wanna recover from this?

我认为要认识到，那种不好的感觉是一个信号。它是宇宙发给你的一个数据点。你感觉不好，是因为有些事情需要改变。

And I think recognizing that that bad feeling is a signal. It's a data point the universe is sending you. You feel bad because something needs to change.

是的。节目就到这里。我是艾米·加洛。

Yeah. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo.

我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。要想在职业生涯中不断上升，我们就必须放下对自己不切实际的高标准。这是爱丽丝·博伊斯在2018年那期节目中传达的主要信息之一，莎拉提到的“完美是敌人”。

And I'm Amy Bernstein. To keep rising in our careers, we've gotta let go of unrealistically high standards for ourselves. That's one of the main messages from Alice Boys in the twenty eighteen episode that Sarah mentioned, perfect is the enemy.

完美主义者为了避免任何错误，会花费过多的时间和精力。因此他们会避免做决定，避免采取行动。这在很大程度上是因为反复思考错误会带来心理上的痛苦。你可以在播客列表中滚动到第二季第五集，收听那期节目并获取更多爱丽丝的洞见。

Perfectionists spend far too much time and effort trying to avoid any mistakes. So they'll avoid making decisions. They'll avoid taking action. And a lot of that is because ruminating over mistakes is so psychologically painful. You can find that episode and get more of Alice's insights by scrolling in the podcast feed to season two episode five.

如果你从未往回翻过那么远，你会在我们的档案中发现很多优质内容。去浏览一下吧。

And if you've never scrolled that far back, you'll see a lot of quality stuff in our archive. Go have a browse.

HBR还有更多播客，帮助你管理自己、你的团队和你的组织。请访问hbr.org/podcast，或在Apple播客、Spotify或你收听的任何平台搜索HBR。

HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcast or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

《职场女性》的编辑与制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍赫、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·埃克哈特、埃里卡·特拉克勒斯勒、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。蒸汽音乐由罗宾·摩尔作曲。

Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed the steam music.

感谢收听。随时给我们发邮件：women@workathbr.org。

Thanks for listening. Email us anytime at women@workathbr.org.

毕马威通过创造价值带来改变，例如开发战略洞见助力并购成功，或将人工智能解决方案嵌入你的业务以保持竞争优势。毕马威，成就不同。了解更多请访问www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.