让自己被听见

让我们暂时回到上世纪九十年代。越来越多的女性进入办公室，与男性并肩工作或担任他们的上级，而非下属。

Let's go back for a few minutes to the nineteen nineties. More women were in the office, increasingly working alongside men or above them, not for them.

黛博拉·坦南是一位国际知名的

Deborah Tannen is an international

乔治城大学语言学教授黛博拉·坦南关注着这些女性能否被男性同事倾听和尊重。以下是她在1995年职场培训视频《朝九晚五的对话》中的片段。

Deborah Tannen, a Georgetown University linguistics professor, was concerned about these women being heard and respected by their male colleagues. Here's Deborah in her 1995 workplace training video, Talking nine to five.

比如，你是否曾在会议上提出建议却被忽视，随后别人说出同样内容却被当作绝妙主意？是否遇到过你交代的事情要么没完成，要么被搞砸的情况？

For example, have you ever said something at a meeting, had it ignored, then someone else said the same thing and it was picked up as a great idea? Have you ever told someone to do something and then it wasn't done or was done wrong?

她的研究表明，女性在工作中的沟通方式往往使她们处于劣势。您正在收听哈佛商业评论出品的《职场女性》。我是副主编妮可·托雷斯。

She knew from her research that the way women tend to talk at work can put them at a disadvantage. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Nicole Torres, associate editor.

我是《哈佛商业评论》主编艾米·伯恩斯坦。

I'm Amy Bernstein, editor of HBR.

我是执行主编莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔。

I'm Sarah Green Carmichael, executive editor.

我们的节目讲述女性在职场的经历，首期主题是关于被倾听的问题。

Our show's about what women experience at work, and our first episode is about being heard.

那些职场场景——在会议中被忽视、创意得不到认可——现在看起来和当年一样切题

And those couple workplace scenarios, being ignored in a meeting, not getting credit for ideas, seem just as on topic now as they did back in

九十年代。所以我们坐下来观看黛博拉的视频，了解九十年代女性面临的困境。

the nineties. So we sat down and watched Deborah's video to hear what women of the nineties were up against.

哦对，对，对。我的起落架放下来了。你的起落架呢？

Oh, right. Right. Right. My landing gear is down. Your landing gear?

噢，我戴着耳机太投入了，感觉自己像是在驾驶舱里一样。

Oh, I just over the top with the headphones on. I feel like I'm, like, in a cockpit or something.

你们会听到，艾米和莎拉毫无保留地分享了看法。

As you'll hear, Amy and Sarah did not hold back.

男性常用而女性容易当真的仪式性对立。小男孩们常和伙伴玩闹打架，远比小女孩频繁。成年后，男性常通过对立姿态推进事务。女性觉得这种对待创意的态度令人困惑。

A ritual that men often use, which women can take literally, is ritual opposition. To eyes little boys men play with their friends, often spend time play fighting, much more than little girls do. As adults, men often use an oppositional stance to get things done. Find it so confusing. Ideas.

他们不会支持别人的想法，而是试图指出其中的弱点，通过挑战来帮助对方深入探讨这个想法。

Rather than supporting somebody else's ideas, they'll try to point out the weaknesses, challenge it as a way of helping somebody explore the idea. And

这让我想逃开。但听众朋友们，我们需要你们继续收听，因为我们将与黛博拉·坦嫩探讨言语的力量，这是她1995年为《哈佛商业评论》撰写的主题。随后，莎拉、艾米和我将分享我们的观察与故事。之后，我们会与两位专家对话，获取关于如何更有效沟通的实用建议。首先是与黛博拉·坦嫩的访谈。

that makes me run away. But listeners, we need you to stay with us because we're going to talk to Deborah Tannen about the power of talk, which she wrote about for HBR in 1995. Then Sarah, Amy, and I have our own observations and stories. And after that, we'll talk with two experts who'll give us practical advice on how we can communicate more effectively. First, our conversation with Deborah Tannen.

我们首先询问她，女性在工作场所中的表达与被倾听方式是否发生了变化，如果有的话。

We started by asking her what, if anything, has changed about how women are speaking and being heard in the workplace.

我的印象是变化不大。从那时起，我几乎不间断地为各类组织、企业公司进行演讲。每次演讲后，我得到的反馈总是相同的——‘这正是我的遭遇’，比如昨天就有人这么对我说。

My impression is that not much has changed. I have been giving talks to various organizations, corporations, companies pretty much nonstop since back then. And whenever I do give these talks, I get the same response. That's exactly what's happening to me. I experienced that just yesterday.

你刚刚描述了我的生活经历。这就是我认为情况基本未变的依据。

You've just told the story of my life. So that's the basis for my saying that not much has changed.

既然女性如今仍因相同原因难以被倾听，如果现状没有太大改变，我们想更深入地理解这种状况的根源及其驱动因素。

So if women are still struggling to be heard for the same reasons today, if not much has changed, We wanna get a better understanding of where that comes from, what's driving that.

我追溯了女性和男性在工作中的典型说话方式——必须一开始就强调，是‘典型’而非绝对。没有任何特征适用于所有女性或男性，除了性别外，我们的表达方式还受许多因素影响。但确实存在一些倾向：女孩和男孩在童年同性群体玩耍时，女孩往往学会弱化自身权威的说话方式。

I trace the way women and men tend to speak at work, and it's very important to say right at the beginning, tend to. Nothing is true of all women or all men. We have many influences on our style other than our gender. But there are tendencies that girls and boys tend to learn as kids playing in same sex groups. Girls tend to talk in ways that downplay their authority.

如果她们说话时表现出自己可能是团队领袖或擅长某事的姿态，其他女孩就会批评她们。说她专横，自以为是，傲慢。这与男孩们通常在群体中维护地位的方式形成鲜明对比。

If they talk in ways that play up the fact that they're maybe a leader in the group or that they think they're good at something, the other girls will criticize them. She's bossy. She thinks she's something. She's stuck up. That contrasts with the way boys tend to maintain their position in the group.

他们会炫耀自己的长处，甚至可能将其变成一场互相较量的游戏。而团队领袖则是那个能指挥他人并让指令生效的人。若将场景转换到职场，掌权者必须指示他人做事。女性往往需要找到既不过于专横又能弱化权威的方式。我曾在某大学演讲时，与校长交谈，她分享了这样一个经历。

Chalk up what they're good at, maybe even make it into a game where they're trying to top each other. And the leader of the group is someone who tells the others what to do and gets it to stick. If we move into the workplace, a person in authority has to tell others what to do. And frequently, women will find ways to do it that doesn't seem too bossy, that downplays their authority. I was actually speaking at a at a college and talking to the president of the college, and she told me of this experience.

她对助理说过类似'能帮我个忙吗？'这样的话，然后继续提出要求。一位董事会成员私下提醒她：'别忘了你是校长。'他注意到她以'能帮我个忙吗？'开头，字面上就像她真以为自己无权要求助理做事似的。

She had said something to her assistant like, could you do me a favor? And and went on and asked her to do something. The member of the board took her aside and said, Don't forget, you're the president. He had heard the fact that she started with, Could you do me a favor? Literally, as if she really thought she didn't have the authority to ask her own assistant to do something.

她非常清楚助理必须执行她的任何要求。因此在她看来，用'能帮我个忙吗？'这种表达只是出于礼貌，给助理留面子。这句话并非字面意思。

She was quite certain that she knew the assistant had to do whatever she asked her to do. So she was saving face for the assistant by asking it in a way that was, in her view, simply polite. Could you do me a favor? It didn't mean that literally. One of

我注意到女性不仅会弱化请求，还会通过各种提问方式来间接实施领导策略。比如在会议中，你可能会听到女性说：'我不太确定是否跟上了进度，能否请人复述一下？'——即便她们认为会议主持人本应做开场总结却没做。或是'谁能解释下q3结果的含义？'——哪怕她们自己清楚，但认为团队其他人需要了解。

the ways I have noticed that women will try to make not just requests, but all kinds of sort of leadership maneuvers less direct is by phrasing things as questions. You know, you might see a woman in a meeting saying something like, I'm not quite sure I'm following. Can someone like recap for me if they think that the person running the meeting should have done that but didn't in the beginning? Or can someone please, you know, explain what the q '3 results mean? Even if they themselves know, but they think someone else in the group needs that information.

这是个绝佳例子，说明女性常以保全他人面子的方式沟通，但这常被解读为她们自身的问题。

That's a great example of how women will often talk in ways that will save face for other people, and it's interpreted as something internal about them.

所以我认为这个

So I thought that this

这个关于自信的观点非常有趣。通常的叙事是女性在社会化过程中变得不那么自信，但你似乎在说她们实际上是被社会化得听起来不那么自信。

was a really interesting take on confidence. I feel like the narrative is usually that women are socialized to be less confident, but it seems like you're saying they're actually socialized to sound less confident.

是的，完全正确。劳里·赫瑟林顿做过一项研究，她让所在大学的数百名大一新生预测他们第一年的成绩。实验设置了两种条件：一半学生被要求公开预测，要么口头告诉面试官预期成绩，要么写在纸上然后被当众宣读。

Yes. Absolutely. Laurie Hetherington did a study where she asked hundreds of incoming freshmen at the university where she taught to predict the grades that they were going to get in their first year. There were two conditions. Half of them were asked to do it in a public way, either orally tell the interviewer what grades they expected or write it on a piece of paper, but then those predictions were read aloud to a group.

另一半则是私下预测。写下你的预期，装进信封密封起来，没有人会看到。

The other was private. Write what you expect. Close it in an envelope. Seal up the envelope. No one's gonna see it.

结果非常有意思：在公开条件下，女性对自己的成绩预测远低于男性；而私下预测时，男女的预测基本一致。这表明女性实际上是在淡化真实预期，以免显得过于自负。

The findings were fascinating because in the conditions when it was public, women predicted much lower grades for themselves than men tended to. When it was private, it was pretty much the same for the women and the men. So what the women were doing was downplaying what they really expected so that they wouldn't come across as too full of themselves.

我认为女性在邀功方面可能存在些不同情况，对我们有些人来说，邀功是种令人反感的行为。你在研究中发现相关现象了吗？

I think that there might be something a little bit different going on with credit taking in women, where for some of us, taking credit is kind of a repugnant act. Have you seen anything on that front?

是的。我注意到女性在谈论个人成就时经常用'我们'，而男性则会用'我'来描述并非个人独立完成的事。这与我们对'得体'的认知有关——很多女性觉得说'我'像是在自夸。

Yes. I observed that women frequently said we when talking about something they personally had done or accomplished. I also observed men saying I about things that they were not individually, personally responsible for. And I think that has a lot to do with our sense of what's appropriate. So a lot of women feel it's kind of boastful to say I.

'我'这个字本身就该避免使用。所以她们用'我们'来体现对同事的尊重，但潜意识里期待别人能明白实际贡献者。这类似于许多女性共有的思维模式：只要我做好工作，自然会被注意到。

The word I in itself is to be avoided. So they'll say we to be gracious about the people that they work with. But they kind of assume other people will know that they really did it. And that's kind of similar to this more general pattern that many women felt. If I do a good job, it will be noticed.

我不必刻意强调自己的成就。而对许多男性而言，他们意识到必须主动宣扬，否则无人知晓。女性许多习以为常的说话方式被认为是理所当然或得体的，这很现实。我常提到的现象是双重束缚。我们对女性说话方式有既定期待，若她们不符合这些期待，人们就会反感。

I don't have to call attention to what I've done. Whereas for many men, they realize that they should call attention to it or people won't know. A lot of these ways of speaking that women have taken for granted or assume are appropriate, it's realistic. The phenomenon I often refer to is the double bind. We have expectations for how women should speak, and if they don't fulfill those expectations, people don't like them.

我们对男性说话方式也有期待。若他们不那样说话，人们就会有负面印象。要找到中间地带确实是个挑战。

We have expectations for how men should speak. If they don't speak that way, people will have a negative impression. It's a challenge to find some middle ground.

黛博拉，那听起来是怎样的？成功应对这种情况会是什么表现？

Deborah, what does that sound like? What does it sound like to successfully navigate that?

我举个例子。一位女性需要吩咐下属做事。如果她说'你觉得四点前能完成这个吗？'——那种高音调、上扬的语调会显得礼貌而不强势。人们会喜欢她，但认为她缺乏权威。

I'll give an example. A woman has to tell a subordinate to do something. If she says something like, do you think you could do this by four? The high pitch, the rising intonation, all of that would be polite and not too imposing. People would like her, but see her as lacking authority.

她也可以说'四点前完成这个'。这样会显得权威，但由于对女性而言过于强硬，反而留下坏印象。折中的说法可以是'我需要在四点前拿到这个，你觉得能完成吗？'这样介于极度自我贬低和完全命令式之间。

She could say, do this by four. That would be authoritative, but would make a bad impression because it's it's too assertive for a woman. She could say something like, I need this by four. Do you think you could do that? So it's something in between the very self effacing and the very declarative.

文章中最让我感兴趣的是那些从未以术语角度思考过的女性对话仪式，比如为并非自身过错的事情道歉，仅仅因为坏事发生就致歉。另一个引起强烈共鸣的是赞美——程式化地赞美他人，尤其是其他女性。你还举了个绝佳例子：当对方未完成对话仪式时有多尴尬。我深有同感，这种事每天都在发生。

One of the things I found really interesting about the article was reading about some of the conversational rituals that women have that I had never thought about in those terms, such as apologizing when something's not their fault, but just sort of apologizing because something bad happened. The other one that really hit home to me was compliments, sort of just ritualistically complimenting other people, especially other women. And then you had a great example in the article too of like a a ritual that was uncompleted by the other party and how awkward that was. And I was like, yes. This this it happens every day

举个例子，当对方不配合时可能适得其反的对话仪式。女性常被指责道歉过多，人们会说'别道歉，这不是你的错'。

to me. Here's an example of a conversational ritual that can backfire when the other person doesn't do their part. Women are often told they apologize too much. They're told, don't apologize. It's not your fault.

有时女性会用道歉来促使对方道歉。我举个具体例子。假设有个会议，你是老板，下属没来参会。

Sometimes a woman will use an apology to get the other person to apologize. I'll give you a specific example. Let's say there was a meeting. You're the boss. Subordinate didn't come to the meeting.

他们本该出席的。她可能会说：哎呀，抱歉你没来开会，要是我忘了通知你的话。真对不起，这会议挺重要的。其实她很清楚自己通知过他。

They were supposed to be there. She might say something like, gee, sorry you weren't at the meeting if I forgot to tell you about it. I'm sorry. It was really pretty important. She knows she told him about the meeting.

她为a道了歉，他就该为b道歉。所以他应该说——也是她期待听到的——'啊对，你确实告诉我了，很抱歉'。

She has apologized for a. He is supposed to apologize for b. So he should say and she would expect him to say, oh, yeah. You did tell me. I'm sorry.

'突然有事耽搁了，我会跟进会议内容，保证下不为例'。要是他说'下次记得通知我'，这就像玩跷跷板，你坐在自己这边，却指望对方坐在另一边。要是对方突然起身，你就会摔个屁股墩儿，还莫名其妙。

Something came up, and I couldn't make it, but I'll make sure to find out what went on, and it won't happen again. If he says, yeah, make sure you tell me next time. It's almost like sitting on a seesaw, a teeter totter. You sit on your side, but you trust the other person to sit on their side. If they get off, you go plopping to the ground, and you wonder how you got there.

'我做错什么了？'其实错不在你，而是对方没遵守对话默契。

What did I do? But it really wasn't anything you did. It's that the other person did not do their part of the conversational ritual.

我好奇的是，随着更多女性进入职场、担任领导，她们带来了新的对话礼仪，比如更多赞美和道歉。既然这些行为模式更普遍了，为何现在反而没得到更多重视呢？

So I guess I'm curious if conversational rituals have changed because there are more women in the workplace, there are more women as leaders. They introduce their own conversational rituals. There's more complimenting, more apologizing going on maybe. So why aren't those behaviors, those rituals more valued now if they're more common?

九十年代初我做这项研究时，深信随着职场女性增多，标准会改变。某种程度上，我对现状既失望又惊讶。我认为原因在于，我们对权威人士言行的认知仍基于男性权威形象，社会依然将权威与男性挂钩。

When I did this research back in the early nineties, I was quite convinced that when there were more women in the workplace, the standards would change. So in a way, I'm disappointed and also surprised that they haven't. The explanation I would surmise is that our sense of how a person in authority should speak or behave is still based on an image of a man in authority. We still associate authority with men.

黛博拉，再次非常感谢你今天加入我们。

Well, Deborah, thank you again so much for joining us today.

谢谢大家。谢谢。非常感谢。再见。

Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye.

与黛博拉道别后，艾米、莎拉和我留下来聊了聊我们作为《哈佛商业评论》的三位女性编辑在办公室里的沟通方式。

After we said bye to Deborah, Amy, Sarah, and I stuck around and chatted about how we talk at The Office as three women working as editors at HBR.

我发现在放弃那些我知道会削弱自己的行为（比如道歉）和找到一种更自信的表达方式之间，很难找到一个令人满意的平衡点

I have found it really hard to find this sort of happy medium between backing off some of these behaviors like apologizing that I know are undermining me and also finding a more assertive way

既不过于强势。站在听众的角度想想。听别人道歉真是无聊透顶。还有那些没完没了的铺垫，赶紧打住吧。你这样做对谁都没好处，尤其是你自己。

to speak that doesn't sound too strong. Put yourself in the listener's position. It is such a bore to listen to someone apologize. And the endless on ramps to the point, just stop it. You're not doing anyone any favors, particularly yourself.

但听你说话的人只想听你要表达的内容。他们不想听周围那些氛围渲染。我要给的另一个建议——虽然你没问，但我还是要说——就是别太把自己当回事。重点不在于你，而在于观点。

But the people listening to you just wanna hear what you're trying to say. They don't wanna hear all the atmospherics around it. The other piece of advice I'll give, and you didn't ask for it, but I'm gonna give it anyway, is get over yourself. It's not about you. It's about the idea.

当你领悟到这一点，就能从所有疑虑和表达这些疑虑的沟通中解放出来，让你的观点更容易被理解，同时你也会变得更有趣。

And when you get to that point, you liberate yourself from all of those doubts and all of the communication of those doubts, and you make it so much easier to get your ideas across, and you become so much more interesting.

不过，我想对此稍作反驳。

Just to, though, push back on that a little bit.

你错了。

You're wrong.

在我职业生涯早期，我曾试图摒弃许多女性特有的对话习惯。后来一位真心为我着想的人给我的建议是：'莎拉，你说话时不够谦逊。不要直接抛出你的想法，应该说这只是个不成熟的想法，或者我可能错了...' 这让我非常震惊，我当即告诉那位给我建议的资深男同事：'真有趣您会注意到这点，因为我其实是刻意改掉这个习惯的，因为我听说年轻女性这样做会削弱自己的专业性。'

In my career earlier in my career, I had attempted to cut out a lot of these conversational female tics. And the advice I then got from someone who I think very much was having my best interest at heart was, you know, Sarah, when you talk, you're not deferential enough. Instead of just blurting out your idea, you need to say, you know, well, this is just one idea, but or I could be wrong, but and I was really taken aback by that and and actually told the senior male who was giving me this advice, oh, it's funny you noticed that because I actually had made a conscious effort to stop doing that because I had heard that that is something young women do that undermines them.

天啊，这听得我火冒三丈。这建议简直糟糕透顶。毫无疑问，虽然可能是出于好意，甚至是用关爱的口吻说的——

Okay. That makes me absolutely crazy hearing that. That is such bad advice. There isn't a question in my mind that that was it may have been well intentioned. It may have been delivered with with love.

但让年轻女性更加顺从就是在摧毁她们。一个异常聪明、表达清晰的年轻女性确实面临更陡峭的晋升之路，这点毋庸置疑。但优秀的管理者应该帮助她避开所有隐形地雷，职场本就是雷区，我们都知道这一点。

But to tell a young woman to be more deferential is so undermining. An exceptionally bright and articulate young woman does have a steeper hill to climb. There's no question about that. But a good manager helps her climb it without stepping on every little landmine, and it is a minefield out there. We all know that.

我认为在工作中得到的最好建议是在几年前的一次汇报时。我当时为幻灯片不够美观道歉，算是个蹩脚的玩笑。结束后我的上司凯瑟琳说：'表现很棒，但别再道歉了，特别是当你没有做错任何事的时候。'

The best advice I think I've gotten at work was a couple of years ago in a presentation. I was apologizing for, like, having ugly slides. It was, you know, kind of a joke. So my, like, poor attempt at being funny. At the end, you know, Catherine, my boss was like, that was great, but stop saying sorry, especially if you didn't do anything wrong and you're not at fault.

黛博拉刚才也提到女性更容易道歉，这似乎是我们常听到的话题。你们两位是否也收到过停止道歉的建议？

And Deborah touched on, you know, how women apologize more. I feel like that's a common refrain we hear. Have you two ever gotten advice to stop apologizing?

我从未得到过这样的建议。但我也注意到自己会在荒谬的情况下道歉。比如街上有人撞到我，我会说，天哪，真对不起。谢谢。然后我就想，我这是在干嘛？

I have never gotten that advice. But I also have noticed that I will apologize in absurd situations. Like someone on the street bumps into me and I say, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. Thank you. And I'm like, what?

明明是那个人撞了我。我不光道歉了，还向对方道谢。后来我意识到这种行为其实挺病态的。我也不知道。艾米，你怎么看？

That person just ran into me. You know, I not only apologized, but I thanked them. Like and I realized that is like disturbing behavior on my part. I don't know. Amy?

没人说过我道歉太多，但有人说我过度自责。这种情况我只听过几次。不过确实，在这方面让我困扰的是...

I have not been told that I apologize too much. I've been told I take too much blame. I've only heard that a couple of times. But yeah. The thing that has been tricky for

对我来说还有个问题词就是'只是'。我知道网上有场运动呼吁女性停止使用这个词。'我只是想联系一下'，'我只是好奇'...我觉得这种表达方式太...你懂的，就像在说'别用只是这个词，直接表达你的观点'

me in this area also is the word just. And I know there's been a kind of online movement to convince women to stop using the word just. I was just reaching out. I was just wondering I think it's just a little bit too, you know, as a way of like, just don't say just, you know, have your opinion

就直接说出来。'就直接说出来'。这种表达很糟糕，就像滥用'非常'这个词一样。

and just own it. Just just own it. It's bad writing. It's like the word very.

但当我删掉这些词再看写的内容时，就会觉得：天，这女人也太专横了。而且...

But when I take it out, I look at what I wrote, and I'm like, god. That woman's a bossy woman. And and

也许真正理解的人会想：啊，终于能听明白话了。说得对，确实如此。

maybe the woman who gets it is thinking, ah, finally, clarity. Fair enough. Fair enough.

通过与黛博拉·坦南的交谈，我们更加意识到自己在职场中的说话方式。比如我们许多人倾向于礼貌地间接表达或为他人保全面子。而这些言语模式可能阻碍我们在工作中展现领导力。我们想进一步了解如何让同事倾听我们的声音，尤其是在会议中。于是我们联系了吉尔·弗林。

From talking with Deborah Tannen, we came away more aware of how we tend to speak at work. Like how lots of us tend to be politely indirect or safe face for other people. And how those speech patterns can prevent us from showing up as leaders at work. We wanted to hear more about what we can do to make our colleagues listen to us, especially in meetings. So we called up Jill Flynn.

她是咨询公司Flynn Heath Holt的创始合伙人。她和她的顾问团队为女性提供指导，帮助她们成为更高效的商业领袖。她们还研究了女性在会议中的表现，这一主题曾出现在2014年杂志文章《女性，找回你的声音》中，吉尔与凯瑟琳·希思、玛丽·戴维斯·霍尔特合著。文章探讨了为何能力出众的女性在会议中无法充分发挥影响力。研究发现众多原因中，她们的声音常被忽视或淹没。

She's a founding partner of the consulting firm Flynn Heath Holt. She and her team of consultants work with women and coach them to be more effective as business leaders. They've also done research about women's performance in meetings, which was the topic of the 2014 magazine article, Women Find Your Voice, which Jill co wrote with Katherine Heath and Mary Davis Holt. They write about why highly capable women don't feel as effective as they could in meetings. Among the many reasons they found, their voices are often ignored or drowned out.

她们还为试图发声的女性提供了实用建议。其中一条建议是掌握会前沟通。如果你像我一样经常忙得没时间进行会前沟通，或者根本不知道这是什么，下面请吉尔来解释。

They also have practical advice for women trying to make themselves heard. One piece of that advice was to master the pre meeting. If you like me often feel too busy to have a pre meeting or are just wondering what the heck it even is, here's Jill to explain.

大多数情况下，会议并非一切发生的场所。会议通常用于批准决定，或许讨论潜在选项。至关重要的是，你在参会前需明确会议内容和目的。根据会议重点，我们必须做好准备。但太多人都忽略了这点。

The meeting, for the most part, the meeting is not where everything happens. The meeting is to usually ratify decisions, maybe discuss potential options. It's really, really important that you know before you go to a meeting what's gonna happen and what's the purpose of the meeting. Depending on the focus of the meeting, we have got to prepare. And so many of us don't do that.

我们只是到场，做自以为该做的事，然后立即离开。我们认为会议就像是企业舞台，是你被看见、被倾听、被评估的场合。但我们并未认真对待。如果我们试图获得某项批准，或想让同事参与跟随——

We just show up, do what we think we're supposed to do and then we leave immediately. We say that meetings are really like the corporate stage. It is where you get to be seen and heard and evaluated. And we're not taking that seriously. So if we are trying to get approval for something or we are trying to get our peers to join in and follow.

因为作为领导者，我们正努力在组织中推动变革。我们必须进行个别会晤，了解关键人物的想法，谁是关键影响者，如何争取他们的支持，如何预判可能的阻力？

Because as leaders, what we're trying to do is make changes in our organizations. We have gotta have individual meetings and find out what's on those people's minds, who are the key influencers, how can I get them to help me, how can I understand their potential resistance?

请具体说明下。当你准备进入会议室，准备即兴发言时，你已做好所有准备工作，在会前争取了支持。那么除了准备好展现自信姿态外，你还会做什么？

So break that down for us, though. When you're preparing to enter a room, you're preparing to speak spontaneously, you've done all of the work, you've tried to get votes, before the meeting. So, what do you do aside from get ready to look confident?

你发言相当迅速，并且会提前到达会议现场。这样做的一个好处是能让你更从容。而我们（尤其是女性）的普遍倾向是，总是把自己安排得满满当当直到十点，而会议正好十点开始。于是有时我们十点零二分才匆忙进场，手里抱着一堆东西，看起来甚至不像准备好开会的样子。而男性，尤其是高管层的男性，你会注意到他们总是提前到场，不带大量文件，也不做笔记。

You speak up pretty quickly and you go to the meeting early. One thing about that is that it helps you be more comfortable. And our tendency, many women's tendency is we're so busy, we book ourselves all the way till ten and the meeting starts at ten. So sometimes we come in at two after ten and we're carrying a bunch of stuff and we don't even look like we're ready for the meeting. Men, if you notice, particularly at the executive level, they come early, they don't carry a lot of papers, they don't take notes.

当他们提前到达时，会相互交谈，进行我们称之为'非正式社交的力量'的活动。要知道，男性也非常注重人际关系。我们常说女性更注重关系，确实如此。但对男性而言，职位越高，人际关系就越重要——我能信任谁？可以求助谁？谁是我确信会支持我的人？

When they get there early, they talk to each other, they do what we call the power of the informal. You know, men are very relationship oriented too. We always say women are relational and we are. But men, especially the higher you go, it's more about relationships. Who can I trust, who can I go to, who do I know has my back?

因此，当我们迟到或卡点进场，且没有重视这些关系建设（哪怕是闲聊，话题都不必涉及业务），我们就没能充分融入团队，也无法通过非正式交流感知团队氛围。女性往往更倾向正式场合和正式陈述，而且如果不是自己专业领域，我们常常选择沉默。所以我们经常保持安静。

And so, when we come in late or right on the dot and we haven't paid any attention to these relationships, even just casual talk, it doesn't have to be anything about business. We're not as ready to be part of the group and we can't read the tone of the group as well informally. Women tend to like more formality and more presenting. And then we also tend to not speak up if it's not our area of expertise. So we're quiet a lot.

但越成功的人越懂得全局业务，并能就整个业务发表见解。你可以带着几个经过深思熟虑的好问题参加会议，这就是很好的贡献方式，不必非得是专家才行。

But the more successful people, they understand the whole business and they can speak to the whole business. You can go into a meeting and have a few questions. Good, deep thought questions. That's a good way to contribute. You don't have to be the expert.

吉尔，你是说我们应该准备好及早发言，而发言内容可以包括提出睿智的问题吗？

Are you saying, Jill, that, you know, you should be prepared to speak up and speak up early, but speaking up can include the smart question?

完全正确。在会议中，讨论常常会陷入循环，人们重复观点。这时如果能说'我们已经从三个不同角度分析了这个问题，尝试了A方案、B方案、C方案，接下来该采取什么步骤？'往往会很有帮助。

Absolutely. You'll be in a meeting, it's going to, you know, it just goes around and around, people repeat. And sometimes it can be very helpful to just be able to say, you know, we've looked at this now from three different angles. We did this, we did this, we did this. What's our next step?

就是用专业得体的方式引导讨论走向决策，不带指责或贬低意味。我们绝不能采用那些不当方式。但精准指出当前讨论的实质，这种做法往往很有力量。

Just to sort of call the question in a nice professional way, not accusatory, not belittling, nothing like that. We can't get away with anything like that. But to name what is happening right now, that can be powerful.

所以我想请教你一个建议，我觉得女性，尤其是年轻女性，经常听到这样的建议：在会议上多发言或表达自己的意见。管理者或许应该换种说法？

So I wanna ask you about some advice that I feel like women, but maybe especially young women, get all the time. Speak up more or voice your opinions in meetings. What should managers maybe say instead?

管理者需要帮助这个人做好准备。你不能只是对某人说，多发言。你应该说，刚才在会议上你什么都没说。我知道你有一些想法。跟我谈谈我们在会议上讨论的这个想法。

The manager needs to help the person prepare. You don't just say to someone, speak up more. You say, now, we were just in a meeting and you didn't say anything. I know you have some ideas. Talk to me about this idea that we were discussing in the meeting.

然后他们会说出来，你就说，再用更简洁的方式跟我说一遍，不要用所有的缩写或什么的。好的，很好。这就是我希望你在会议上说的那种话。另外，管理者如果在会议上，可以直接点名那个人。比如，你觉得呢，艾米？

And they'll say it and you say, say it to me again in more succinct, don't use all the acronyms or whatever. Okay, good. That's the kind of thing I'd like to hear you say in the meeting. Also, managers, if they're in the meeting, they can call on the person. You know, what do you think, Amy?

艾米，你对这个问题有些想法。你怎么看？这是男性可以为年轻人做的主要事情之一，无论男女，任何导师都可以这样做。

Amy, you've got some ideas on this. What do you think? This is one of the main things men can do, any mentor can do for younger people, men or women.

吉尔，你在为《哈佛商业评论》写的关于这个话题的文章中，实际上给出了一些女性可以使用的具体短语，你称之为有力的语言。比如，与其把你的建议表述为一个问题，你应该说，我强烈建议。或者说，我的计划是……你有没有遇到过你辅导的女性表示抗拒，她们会说，我就是说不出口。那听起来不像我。

Jill, you in the article you wrote for HBR on this topic, actually had some specific phrases that women could also use that you called muscular language. So instead of phrasing your suggestion as a question, you should say, I strongly suggest. Or instead of saying, well, I think maybe you could say, well, my plan is do you ever get pushback from the women you coach where they're just like, I just can't say that. That doesn't sound like me.

是的。

Yes.

那你会怎么告诉她们？

And what do you tell them?

我说，好的。跟我聊聊。用你自己的话告诉我，然后我们就能达成共识。

I say, okay. Talk to me. Tell it to me in your own words, and then we we we get there.

嗯，吉尔，这次谈话真的很愉快。我感觉充满力量。谢谢你。很好，很好。

Well, Jill, this has been a really fun conversation. I feel empowered. Thank you. Good. Good.

谢谢你，吉尔。

Thank you, Jill.

非常感谢，吉尔。

Thanks so much, Jill.

嗯，我很享受这次谈话。谢谢邀请我。

Well, I've enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

艾米，你总是在会议上明确表达自己的观点。你对那些关于有力语言的建议怎么看？

Amy, you're someone who always makes her opinion known in meetings. What did you think of the muscular language advice?

与其说是关于有力语言的建议，不如说是那段关于铺垫的话真正引起了我的共鸣。你知道，我们听过多少次我们的同事，尤其是女性同事，或者我们自己，在提出观点时先说‘这可能很蠢，但是……’。我认为有力语言的重要性在于当你处于辩论中且遭到很多反对时。真的，这种情况下没有赢家。

I didn't hear it so much as the muscular language advice. What really resonated for me was that point about the wind up. You know, how many times have we heard our colleagues, our female colleagues, have we ourselves started to make a point by saying, you know, you know, this may be stupid, but blah blah blah. Where I do think the muscular language point is important is when you're in a debate and you're getting a lot of pushback. And, really, there's no win here.

你知道，你试图让自己的声音被听到，并确保做决定的人能做出最明智的决定。我发现自己确实会使用这样的措辞，比如‘我建议’

You know, you're trying to make your yourself heard and make sure that whoever's making the decision makes the best informed decision. I do find myself using language like, I recommend

是啊，巴拉巴拉的。我注意到如果我不那样表达，几乎就像完全没人听见一样。比如如果我只是说，哦，你们觉得要不要做XYZ？这话就像随风飘走了。

Yeah. Blah blah blah. I've noticed that if I don't phrase it that way, it's almost like it doesn't get heard at all. Like if I just say, oh, you know, does anyone want to do x y z? It it like just floats away on the wind.

但如果我说，

But if I say,

我认为我们应该这样做，或者我强烈倾向于我们选择方案X。

I think we should do this or my preference, my strong preference is that we do x.

没错。这就像是走到舞台中央吸引注意力，然后说：这就是我希望你们关注的重点。而且这也是个很有效的方法，能避免我们都经历过的那种情况——当我们说‘嘿，X方案怎么样？’

Yeah. It's marching to the center of the stage and drawing the attention and saying, this is what I want you to pay attention to. Yeah. And it also is a very useful way to get past that thing we've all experienced where we say, hey. How about x?

没人理会，然后桌子那头的人突然说‘知道吗？我觉得该选X’，转眼间这就成了今天最绝妙的主意。

No one pays attention, and the guy down the table says, you know what? I think we should do x, and all of a sudden, it's the most brilliant idea Well today.

遇到这种情况时，我总是会说：‘太好了，这听起来和妮可刚才说的很像。很高兴我们都认同这个想法，并且能就此达成一致。’

And in those situations, I always try to say, oh, that's great. It sounds similar to what Nicole said. I think that I'm glad that we like that idea, and that we're coalescing around that.

这种互相帮助的理念极其重要。不仅仅因为做个好人就该这么做，而是你需要让所有最佳想法浮出水面并进行讨论。如果妮可不敢畅所欲言，你们怎能汇集所有好点子？她不会是唯一沉默的人。对吧。

And that idea of helping each other is super important. And there's a re it's not just because you're a good person that you should do this, but you wanna surface all of the best ideas and talk about them. And if Nicole doesn't feel comfortable speaking up, then how are you gonna get all the best ideas out there? She's not gonna be the only one. Right.

我们需要多元观点。需要深思熟虑的人加入对话，综合已听到的内容并提出新见解。若作为讨论主持人你不主动邀请那些沉默者发言，就错失了让最优秀思考呈现桌面的机会。有时很简单——我主持过很多会议，能看出有人想发言却犹豫不决。比如她会抬头张望。

We need the diversity of views. We need someone who is thoughtful to come into the conversation having factored in what she's heard already, bringing in new ideas. You are missing the opportunity to get the best thinking out there on the table if you're not as a as a discussion leader calling in the people who aren't speaking up. And sometimes it's as simple as you know, I lead a lot of meetings, and there are times when I can tell when someone wants to say something and doesn't feel comfortable. You know, she'll look up.

通常是个女性。她会抬头，像想跳进泳池又担心水太冷的样子。这时我会说：苏珊，你似乎有话要说？

It's it's often a woman. She'll look up. She'll look like she wants to jump into the pool, but she's a little afraid the water's cold. Yeah. And I'll say, Susan, you look like you have something you wanna say.

你在想什么？或者劳拉，你觉得这个提议怎么样？

What are you thinking about? Or how does that sound to you, Laura?

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为得到的回应总是既深思熟虑又新颖。但要是...

And just because invariably, what you get back is thoughtful and new. But what

如果我对某个想法感觉不温不火呢？我认为应该把它摆上台面让大家讨论，我只是想提出来而已。

if it's like, I feel lukewarm about an idea? I think it should be on the table, and I want everyone to discuss it. I just wanna put it out there.

所以我想提出一个想法，因为它正被热议，值得关注。这个想法是——然后你不必一次性说完所有内容。对。

So I wanna put an idea out there because it's in the wind. It deserves some attention. Here's the idea. And then you don't have say everything all at once. Yeah.

在讨论过程中，根据你的感受来表态即可。

In the course of the discussion, see how you feel about it and say so.

这是个好建议。确实。

That's good advice. Yeah.

我认为，没人会对自己成功说服的人感到恼火。所以如果讨论结果是让你觉得‘也许这确实不是个好主意’，你可以坚定而非谦卑地说：‘我很高兴我们进行了这次对话。经过深入探讨，我现在同意你的观点。’

I think no one has ever been annoyed at someone who they managed to convince of their point of view. So if the outcome of the discussion is that you think, actually, maybe it wasn't such a good idea. I feel like you can strongly and not in like a deferential way, but in a strong way, say, I'm really glad we had this conversation. Now that we've hashed it out, I agree with you.

没错。

Yeah.

我们询问了吉尔关于会议准备的问题，以及当女性得到‘多发言’这类无实质帮助的建议时该如何应对。嗯。我过去也犯过给这种建议的错误，以后绝不会了。我很好想了解，妮可，你是否接受过真正有效的会议指导？

We asked Jill some questions about preparing for meetings and sort of what women can do if they've given been given advice just like, oh, just speak up more and how that's not very helpful advice. Mhmm. I've been guilty of giving that advice. I'll never do it again. I'm just curious to know, like, Nicole, like, have you ever had, like, a meeting coaching that was effective?

她文章中提到，约67%的女性表示从未获得关于她们在会议中表现的反馈，而她们渴望更多反馈。我认为这很真实。除了‘你应该多发言让大家听到你的想法’之外，我也没收到过具体的行为建议。但有个做法让我受益匪浅：当我的主管明确说‘明天的会议需要你发言，汇报你正在推进的项目进展’时。

Something in her article, she wrote that, like, sixty seven percent of women say they don't get any feedback about how they act in meetings, and they would like more feedback. And I think that's true. I haven't really gotten any feedback or advice about meeting specific behaviors aside from you should speak up more because you have ideas and you should have them heard. But something I found really helpful is when my manager says, I want you to speak up in this meeting tomorrow. Give us an update on this project that you're working on.

我认为这点提前通知对我个人而言确实有所不同。

And I think that little advanced notice makes a difference for me personally.

我把这称为暖线电话。就像，别在会议上冷不防地打电话给人。你只需提前告知，顺便说一句，明天我会问你这件事。

I think of that as the warm call. Like, don't cold call someone on a meeting. You just tell them, by the way, tomorrow I'm gonna ask you about this.

我喜欢暖线电话这个概念。到目前为止，我们讨论了很多关于如何在工作中让自己被听见、如何帮助共事的女性发声的话题。然而，让这件事尤其具有挑战性的是在发言时被打断。大量研究表明，女性比男性更容易被打断。甚至有一项针对最高法院的研究发现，男性大法官打断女性同行的频率是打断其他男性同行的三倍。

I love the warm call. So far, we've been talking a lot about how to make ourselves heard at work how to help the women we work with speak up. One thing that makes this particularly challenging, though, is getting interrupted while speaking. There's a lot of research on how women are more likely than men to get interrupted. There's even one study of the Supreme Court that found that male justices interrupt female justices three times as often as they interrupt each other.

但当你被打断时该怎么办？这并不总是容易应对的，场面相当尴尬。我知道自己在工作中被打断时会变得沉默。弗朗西斯卡·吉诺对此有一些建议。

But what do you do when you get interrupted? It's not always easy to know what to do. It's pretty awkward. I know I clam up when I get interrupted at work. Francesca Gino has some advice.

她是哈佛商学院的行为科学家，曾为《哈佛商业评论》撰写过一篇题为《如何应对爱打断的同事》的文章，探讨了打断行为发生的原因。你知道，有时是文化差异，有时关乎权力。她还提供了一些避免被打断的技巧。首先，尝试预先防止打断。

She's a behavioral scientist who teaches at Harvard Business School. She wrote an article for HBR called How to Handle Interrupting Colleagues about why interruptions happen. You know, sometimes it's cultural, sometimes it's about power. And she gives a few tips to avoid being cut off. First, try to preempt the interruption.

如果这不起作用，试着与经常打断你的人私下沟通。或者与团队讨论如何整体提升沟通效率。这些策略听起来简单，但我知道付诸实践可能很难，特别是如果你像我一样倾向于避免冲突。为了让面对同事这件事显得不那么尴尬和令人生畏，我们请来了处理棘手对话的内部专家艾米·加洛。她是《哈佛商业评论》的特约编辑，也是《哈佛商业评论冲突处理指南》的作者。

Then if that doesn't work, try having a private conversation with the person who keeps interrupting you. Or talk to your team about ways the group as a whole could communicate more effectively. These strategies sound pretty simple, but I know they can be hard to put into practice, especially if you, like me, are known to avoid confrontation. To make the task of confronting colleagues seem less awkward and intimidating, we brought in our in house expert on difficult conversations, Amy Gallo. She's a contributing editor at HBR and the author of the HBR guide to dealing with conflict.

谢谢，艾米。我很高兴

Thanks, Amy. I'm glad

能来到这里。

to be here.

我们到底该对打断我们的人说些什么？因为直接上前说‘嘿’并不容易，

What should we actually say to someone who's interrupting us? Because it's not easy to approach someone and say, hey,

请别再打断我了。所以我认为关键在于以非常随意、放松且自信的方式表达。因为你表现得越不自在，对方就越可能感到尴尬。艾米，你能示范一下该怎么说吗？

please stop interrupting me. So I think the key is to just do it in a very casual, relaxed, confident way. Because the more discomfort you show others, the more likely they will feel uncomfortable. So Amy, can you like do that for us? Like model how that would sound?

当然。你要保持对话的自然流动，不要举手示意让场面变得尴尬。在对话中顺势说：‘我有些想法要分享，能否让我先说完观点再接受提问？’

Sure. Of course, you wanna be in the flow of the conversation. You don't wanna sort of raise your hand, make it a really awkward moment. But in the flow of the conversation, you say, I have something to to contribute here. Would it be okay if I got through to the end of my point before I took questions?

我被打断时很难保持思路连贯，但很乐意在说完后听取你的意见。我会告诉你何时结束。明白吗？你要把问题归为自己而非他人——

I have a hard time hand you know, keeping my thoughts together when I'm interrupted. But I'm happy to hear your thoughts as soon as I finish. I'll let you know when I'm done. Right? So you wanna really own it as your issue, not project it as on someone else.

‘你总打断我，所以我需要这样做’不如说‘我被打断时很难完成思考，请让我说完，可以吗？’不过难道没有一种方式...

Like you interrupt me all the time, so I need to do this. But I have a hard time finishing my thought when I'm interrupted. So let me get through this. Could you please do that for me? Isn't there a way though

这听起来反而像自我贬低？比如‘我是个毫无逻辑的女人，一被打断就思绪全飞’。对吧？所以请让我说完。

that that could almost seem like self undermining? Like, I'm such an irrational female that if you interrupt me, my thoughts will scatter to the wind. Right. So please let me finish.

同意。而且我认为有时我们过于担心自我贬低，以至于显得不够合作。

Agreed. And I think sometimes we worry so much about undermining ourselves that we come off as non collaborative

嗯。

Mhmm.

以一种无助于事的强势方式。所以我觉得我们常担心，尤其作为女性，我的权威会被削弱，或显得软弱，而我从未见过男性这样做。事实上他们可能无需如此，因为研究表明他们被打断的情况少得多。

And assertive in a way that's not contributing. So I think we often worry, well, my power is gonna especially as women. Right? Where my power is gonna be undermined or I'm gonna seem weak or that I've never seen a man do that. And the truth is they probably don't have to do that because they're interrupted far less as the research shows.

而且他们不必像我们这样保持高度合作就能在工作中取得成效。所以不幸的是，这确实是个风险。

And they don't have to be as collaborative as we do to be effective at work. So unfortunately, yes, that is a risk.

但我认为这是值得承担的风险，以保持柔和合作的姿态，同时获得你所需的东西。如果你不断被同一个人打断，你必须和他们谈谈，告诉他们你的感受和情况。你该如何进行这样的对话？

But I think it's a risk worth taking to maintain a soft collaborative stance while also getting what you need. So what if you keep getting interrupted by the same people, by the same person, and you have to talk to them and just tell them what you're feeling. Tell them what's going on. How do you have that conversation with them?

这不是个轻松的对话，尤其当你情绪激动时。如果你带着'这人打断我是因为他是个厌女又傲慢的混蛋'的心态去谈，对话很难有进展，因为你会把这种情绪投射给对方。首先，你必须带着好奇的心态：为什么这人总打断我？

That's not an easy conversation to have. Again, especially if you're worked up angry. If you go in with the mindset of this person interrupts me because he's a misogynist and arrogant jerk, then you're not gonna get very far in that conversation because you're going to be projecting that to the person. So first of all, you have to go in with a curious mindset. Why is this person interrupting me?

我确实不知道原因。他们可能没意识到自己的行为。所以我该如何通过对话与这个人协作共同解决问题？而不是想着'我必须纠正这个人的行为'。

I really genuinely don't know. They may not realize that they're doing it. So how can I have a conversation, collaborate with this person to fix this problem together? Instead of thinking of, I have to correct this person's behavior.

那么你究竟应该在什么时候这样做呢？比如多少次算是太多次了？

So when should you even do that? Like how many times is too many times?

并没有一个黄金法则。我属于那种不介意被打断的人，部分原因是我说话容易滔滔不绝，我知道有时候打断我是很有帮助的。所以我并不太在意。留意你自己的感受。如果它阻碍你在会议中建设性地贡献，或者改变了你与同事的互动方式，你真的应该花时间处理。

There's not a golden rule. I tend to be someone who doesn't mind being interrupted partly because I go on and on, and I know it's sometimes very useful to cut me off. So I don't mind it as much. Pay attention to how you're feeling. If it's prohibiting you from constructively contributing in a meeting or it's changing the way you're interacting with a coworker, you should really take the time.

这也会取决于你与对方的关系，但要花时间把事情处理好，这样你们双方都对共同参与的会议感到满意。我会这样开启对话：'我能和你谈点事情吗？' 总是用一个问题开始困难的对话，某种程度上是在征求对方的同意。我喜欢说：'嘿，我有话要说，你准备好了吗？'

And it it will depend on your relationship with the person, but take the time to make things right so that you're both feeling good about your meetings together. So I would go into that conversation saying, you know, can I talk to you about something? Always start a difficult conversation with a question, sort of get the person's permission. I like to say, hey, I'm about to say something. Are you ready?

这能帮助他们给你一点许可。'我同意进行这次谈话，'

It helps them give you a little bit of permission. I'm I'm consenting to this conversation,

可以这么说。他们现在也参与其中了。

so to speak. They're part of it now.

没错。然后你要确保不要给这个人贴上任何负面意图的标签。你甚至可以说——这一点很重要，因为很多打断别人的人并没有意识到自己在打断。弗朗西斯卡·吉诺在她的文章中就承认，她打断别人只是因为她是意大利人，这是她文化的一部分。

Exactly. And then you really want to make sure that you don't assign any negative intention to the person. So you might even say, and this is important because a lot of interrupters don't realize they're interrupting. And Francesca Gino admitted in her piece, she just was interrupting because she was Italian. It was part of her culture.

对吧？所以他们可能并不知道。所以你甚至可以从这样说开始：'你可能没有意识到会议中发生了什么，但我觉得自己多次被打断。我不知道我做了什么导致了这个问题，但我很想和你谈谈我们如何改变会议中的互动模式。' 这样就把你们双方放在了同一立场上。

Right? So you they may not know. So you might even start by saying, you may not realize what's happening in the meetings, but I feel like I'm being interrupted multiple times. And I don't know what I'm doing to contribute to the problem, but I'd love to talk with you about how we can change our dynamic in the meeting. And that puts you both on the same side of the table.

你并非在指责，也没有敌对之意，而是在指出我们存在一个问题。这是我观察到的现象，我们能一起讨论吗？

You're not leveling accusations. You're not being antagonistic, but you're saying we have a problem. Here's what I perceive it to be. Can we talk about it together?

那么提出具体例子有多大帮助呢？比如某天某次会议上，当我试图表达某个观点时，被以某种方式打断。这样说明有用吗？还是听起来像我在耿耿于怀？

So how helpful is it to bring specific examples? Like on this day at this meeting, like I was trying to say this, and then I was interrupted this way. Is that helpful? Or does that sound like I'm holding this massive grudge?

我觉得你刚才的说法确实像在记仇。嗯。但举例说明是有用的，因为有些人甚至意识不到自己的行为。所以你可以说：'当我讨论新项目策略并阐述想法时，你多次打断我。我知道你急于表达观点，但若能等我讲完再发言会更有效。'

I think the way you just said it sounded like a massive grudge. Mhmm. But it can be useful to give examples, because some people don't even realize what they're doing. So you can say, when I was talking about the strategy for this new project and I was laying out my thoughts, you interrupted me multiple times. I knew you were eager to get your opinions heard, but it would have been helpful if you waited till I was done to do that.

你肯定不希望这听起来像发给人力资源部的投诉邮件，对吧？

You don't want it to sound like an email that you would send to HR. Right?

应该让对话显得像在共同解决问题的协作讨论。弗朗西斯卡在文章里提到的另一个建议是：如果不好意思单独找某人谈，可以直接向整个群体提出打断发言的问题。你觉得怎么表达最合适？

You wanna sound like a collaborative discussion in which we're solving a problem we have together. So the other piece of advice that Francesca writes about in her article is to you know, if you're uncomfortable approaching one person, just address the group as a whole. Address multiple people about this problem of interruptions. What would you say would be the best way to bring that up?

这是我最喜欢的策略之一。在我们某些会议中见过这种做法。我们常在开场时讨论'如何让会议更高效？'对吧？在会议开始时这样做很自然，希望你们组织也能这样。

This is one of my favorite tactics. And I've seen this happen in some of our meetings. We've often discussed at the beginning, how could this meeting go better? Right? It's a natural thing to do at the beginning of a meeting, hopefully in your organization.

所以会议开始前可以说：'在正式开始前，我想就会议流程提个建议。我见过其他会议采用的有效做法，或许对我们也有帮助。希望大家都能完整表达观点，能否暂缓打断他人发言，确保听取每个人的意见？'

So before the meeting starts, just say, hey, before we get started, I just wanted to bring something up about how this meeting is going. And wanted to throw out something that I've seen work in other meetings, for example, or that I thought might help us. And then you can say, you know, I wanna make sure we all get to finish our thoughts. Can we hold off on interruptions so that we get to hear everyone's point of view?

弗朗西斯卡确实写到了她爱打断别人的习惯，她说这是因为她是意大利人。她还谈到关于停顿和打断的文化差异是导致打断行为发生的原因之一，为什么有些人比其他人更容易打断别人。你是否经历过文化差异影响打断行为的情况？

Francesca does write about her tendency to interrupt, and she says it's because she's Italian. And she talks about how cultural differences around pauses and interruptions is one reason why interruptions happen, why some people are more likely to interrupt than others. Have you ever experienced that cultural differences affecting interruptions?

我不仅经历过文化差异影响打断行为的情况，还经历过因为我是女性而导致的文化差异影响打断行为。我曾为韩国一家大型企业集团做咨询项目，当时我是项目中仅有的两名美国女性之一，团队里没有韩国女性。基本上，每次我们发言时都会被插话或打断。

I've not only experienced cultural differences affecting interruptions, but cultural differences affecting interruptions because I was a woman. I was on a consulting project in Korea working for this large Korean conglomerate. I was one of two American women on the project. There were no Korean women. And basically, anytime we spoke, we were talked over or interrupted.

在一次非常重要的会议上，情况严重到我情绪崩溃，直接哭了出来。我感到无比沮丧和愤怒，于是离开了会议室，走到外面。

And it got to a point at one really important meeting where it just I short circuited and just burst into tears. I was so frustrated. I was so angry. I left the room. I went outside.

我在大楼周围徘徊，实在无法平复情绪，最终决定当天直接离开。这不是我最自豪的时刻，但眼泪就是止不住。后来我回到那个情境中，思考自己本可以采取哪些不同的做法。

I walked around the building. I really couldn't get my act together. So I just left for the day. Was not one of my proudest moments, but you know, tears happened. And you know, I really I went back to the situation and thought what could I have done differently.

我与男性同事交流时，他们说希望当时能为我发声，希望情况有所不同。但老实说，那些人就是不想听你说话。于是我们想出一个策略：如果我有重要观点或见解，就私下告诉某位男性同事，由他在会议上代为表达。

I talked to my male colleagues and they said, you know, we wish we had stood up for you. We wish it had gone differently. But honestly, they just don't wanna hear what you have to say. And we came up with a strategy where if I had an important point of view or perspective, I would just feed it to one of my male colleagues and they would say it in the meeting. Wow.

这真的很令人失望。我希望事情不是这样，希望那个组织不是这样运作的。但如果我想让自己的意见被听到，这是唯一的方法。好在这是临时性的安排。

Really disappointing. I wish it wasn't that way. I wish that organization wasn't that way. But if I wanted to be heard, it was the only way to get my my opinions heard. It was also okay because it was temporary.

我知道自己最终能回到一个可以自由发言而不会被随意打断的工作环境。但那段经历确实不愉快。

I knew I got to go home and work in a place where I was able to speak and not be interrupted. But it wasn't fun for sure.

所以我也想问你，所有的打断都是不好的吗？因为有时候确实是因为别人不在乎你要说什么而被打断，但也有时候这能真正体现出兴奋感，大家热烈讨论，新点子不断涌现。我承认自己一激动就会打断别人。你知道有谁会承认这一点吗？

So I wanted to ask you also, is all interruption bad? Because there are times when, yes, you are being interrupted because people don't care what you have to say. But there's also times when it can really signal excitement, lots of people talking, lots of new ideas coming out. I know I'm guilty of interrupting people when I get excited. Do you know anyone who sort of admits to that?

我有一些朋友和同事清楚自己会打断别人。我认识一位六十多岁的女性，她经营着自己的公司，是所在领域的领军人物。她坦承自己是个习惯性打断者，并表示真的很想改掉这个毛病。

I have friends and colleagues who who know that they're interrupted. I work with a woman who's in her sixties. She owns her own business. She is a leader in her field. She confesses to being a chronic interrupter and says, I really wish I could change it.

当我问她为什么不改时，她说：'其实我觉得自己拥有房间里最有价值的观点，这些观点需要被听到。'确实可能如此。但她应该打断别人吗？应该让别人觉得他们的意见不受重视吗？

And when I ask her, well, why don't you? And she says, I actually think I have some of the most valuable opinions in the room, and they need to be heard. And, you know, she probably does. And should she interrupt? And should she make people feel that their opinions aren't valued?

当然不应该。但她确实需要让自己的声音被听见。我认为这是她在男性主导的行业中，多年来为生存而学会的处事方式。

Absolutely not. But she does need to make herself heard. And I think it's something she's in a male dominated industry. And I think it's something she's learned over the years to do as to survive.

这正是我想请教你的另一面——如何更好地打断别人。无论是当看到某人偏离话题可能需要提醒，还是当你有话要说却不想失礼时，该如何得体地加入对话？

So that's the flip side of this that I wanted to ask you about, which is how to get better at interrupting other people. You know, either to like help, you hear someone kind of going off and maybe they'd appreciate an interruption or that you have something to say, but you don't want to interrupt anyone impolitely. How do you break into a conversation?

在韩国的经历中，最让人难受的是他们打断时从不看我眼睛。他们会直接开始说话，目光只投向房间里其他男性。这让我感到彻底被忽视和消音，非常痛苦。虽然我也承认自己有时会滔滔不绝——当有人想打断时...

The Korea story, what was hardest about those interruptions is that they would never look me in the eye when they would do it. They would just start talking. And they would look at the other men in the room. So so it really made me feel completely unseen and unheard, which was which was painful. I think when you want to interrupt someone sometimes, and again, I admit that I tend to go on and ramble.

如果有人用眼神示意并传递'我想发言'的信号，这对我是个很好的收尾提示。至少我知道他们听到了我的话，认可我的发言权，同时也有话要说。你可以说：'艾米，稍等一下？我明白你的意思，但我也想补充。'或者'介意我现在说几句吗？'

So when someone catches my eye and gives me this sort of signal like I'm ready to talk, it's a good sign for me to wind down. Or at least I know they're hearing what I'm saying, they acknowledge that I'm speaking, and yet they wanna speak. So you can say, Amy, can you hold on one sec? I hear what you're saying, but I wanna contribute as well. Or would you mind if I said something now?

对吧？只需用提问打断，这样即使对方正在发言，你也是在获得他们继续讲话的许可。他们可能会说，实际上我还没说完，或者说好的，请讲。所以我认为关键是要通过非语言方式，比如眼神示意'我可以插话吗？'

Right? Just interrupt with a question so that you're getting their consent to start talking even though they they have the floor. And they might then say, you know, actually, I'm not done yet. Or yes, go ahead. So So I think you just wanna engage the person in a either nonverbal, hey, is it okay if I jump in?

或是直接语言询问'你介意我现在发言吗？'让我问问大家，我们讨论了一阵子，你们现在是否觉得更有能力应对插话情况了？

Or an actual verbal, do you mind if I take the floor right now? So let me ask you, we've been talking for a bit. Do you guys actually feel better equipped to handle interruptions?

我有进步。我也是。

I do. I do too.

确实。掌握具体的话术技巧非常有用。

Yeah. Having, like, actual things to say is very helpful.

没错。范例表达永远是最佳教材。

Yeah. Sample language is always the best.

是的。非常感谢，艾米。

Yes. Yes. Amy, thank you.

谢谢艾米。莎拉，这期节目主要讨论女性如何在工作场合更被倾听，以及管理者如何帮助女性发声。但你是否认为，我们不仅要探讨如何帮助女性职场成功，更该重新定义成功的标准？我完全赞同。

Thank you. Thanks, Amy. Sarah, a lot of this episode has been about how women can have their voices more heard at work and how managers can help women speak up. But don't you think it's also important to talk about not just how to help women succeed at work, but how to change what matters for success. I completely agree.

要知道，有效沟通不仅仅是插上话。它还关乎学会在需要时保持安静和倾听。我觉得倾听是一项被严重低估的技能，尽管它至关重要。我不禁想到，如果更多的工作场所、更多的会议也能重视那些善于倾听的女性，工作会运转得更好、更高效、更具协作性。

You know, communicating effectively is not just about trying to get a word in. It's also about learning to be quiet and to listen when you need to. And I feel like listening is a very undervalued skill, although it's a crucial one. And I can't help but think if more workplaces, if more meetings also valued the women who listen, Work would run better, more efficiently, be more collaborative.

阿门，妮可。我完全同意。不仅仅是女性，许多来自其他文化和背景的人也不适应过多的言语交流。而这正是我们美国外向型文化的特点。

Amen, Nicole. I totally agree with that. And not just women. I mean, a lot of people from other cultures and backgrounds are not comfortable with so much talking. And yet that is in our sort of American extroverted culture.

出人头地的方式就是不停说话。我认为

The way to get ahead is by talking a lot. And I think

我们最不希望看到的就是更多人互相抢话。我们真正需要的是人们学会如何表达自己的想法，同时也懂得给他人留出表达的空间。

the last thing we want is just more people speaking over each other. You know, what we really want is people learning how to speak up with their ideas and also how to give people room to voice their ideas too.

我希望能看到在绩效评估中，倾听被列为一项技能，就像推销你的想法、发言或占据话语权一样重要。是的。我认为女性在社会化过程中被培养成优秀的倾听者，而男性可能并非如此。我们今天这期节目讨论的很多建议，都是关于如何在当前这个不公平的世界中茁壮成长的。嗯。

I would love to see in performance reviews, listening created as a skill just as much as selling your idea or talking or holding the floor, blathering on. Yeah. And I think women are socialized to be great listeners in a way that maybe men are not. You know, a lot of the advice I feel like we've talked about today on this episode is about how to thrive in the unfair world, you know, in which we live. Mhmm.

但如果更多女性成为领导者，或许我们会拥有更重视倾听的工作环境。感谢收听哈佛商业评论的《职场女性》节目。我是莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔，我的联合主持人是艾米·伯恩斯坦和妮可·托雷斯。制作人是阿曼达·克西。

But if more women became leaders, maybe we would have workplaces where listening was more valued. Yeah. Thanks for listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Greene Carmichael, and my cohosts are Amy Bernstein and Nicole Torres. Our producer is Amanda Kersey.

音频产品经理是亚当·布赫霍尔茨。库尔特·尼基什是我们的咨询编辑，莫琳·霍赫是监制编辑。感谢Chart House Learning允许我们使用黛博拉·坦南职场培训视频《朝九晚五的对话》中的音频。这是《职场女性》的首期节目，我们期待您的反馈。请发送邮件至womenatworkhbr.org联系我们。

Our audio product manager is Adam Buchholz. Kurt Nikish is our consulting editor, and Maureen Hoch is our supervising editor. Thank you to Chart House Learning for letting us use sound from Deborah Tannen's workplace training video, Talking nine to five. This is our first episode of Women at Work and we want to know what you think. So email us at womenatworkhbr dot org.

最终，女性的声音正通过其他方式被越来越多地听到。我们正在职场中发声反对性骚扰，反对不支持我们的伴侣，以及关于同工不同酬的问题。我们将在接下来的节目中讨论这些话题。下次再聊。你们听说过这个网站吗，rmentalkingtoomuch.com？

Finally, women are increasingly being heard in other ways. We're speaking up against sexual harassment in the workplace, against unsupportive partners, and about unequal pay. We'll be talking about those topics in upcoming episodes. Talk to you next time. Have you guys heard of this website, rmentalkingtoomuch.com?

没有。没有。

No. No.

说说

Tell

看。我其实私下很喜欢它。这个网站的功能很简单，就是当你在开会时，可以在手机上打开它。当男性在发言时，有个按钮显示'哥们'；而当非男性发言时，按钮则显示'非哥们'。

me. I secretly love it. And what it is is it's basically just a website that as you're in a meeting, you can have it up on your phone. And when a man is talking, there's a button that says, dude. And when someone else is talking who's not a man, there's a button that says not a dude.

我确实在我们的会议中使用过它，以确保大家有平等的参与机会。你发现了什么？实际上我发现，至少在我跟踪记录的会议中，男女发言比例大约是50%对50%，这确实相当不错。是的。不过我也意识到，有时在这些情况下，女性在群体中占比超过50%

And I have actually used it in our meetings here to make sure that we're getting equal participation. And what have you found? I have actually found that here, at least in the meetings I've tracked it in, it's about 50% men talking and 50% women, which is really pretty good. Yeah. Although I also have realized sometimes in those cases, women make up more than 50% of

嗯哼。

the group. Mhmm.

所以可能并不完全成比例，但我觉得我们做得还不错。不过我发现这个工具很有用，因为有时在脑海中，我可能因为自己是个激进的女权主义者，或者只是个多疑的人——谁知道呢，一个饱经风霜、心怀怨愤的女人——总觉得男性说话比实际更多。对吧。所以我用这个应用部分是为了检验自己的假设。

So it's maybe not proportional, but I think we're pretty good at it. But I found it useful because I feel like in my head sometimes I assume maybe because I'm a strident feminist or just a suspicious person, I don't know, beaved and embittered woman, That I always assume that men are talking a lot more than maybe they are. Right. And so I use the app partly as a way to just keep my own assumptions in check.

是的。

Yeah.