一次对话，逐步向上管理

您正在收听哈佛商业评论的《职场女性》栏目。我是艾米·加洛。每个人都向某人汇报工作，而向上管理就是我们如何主动与上司建立一种高效、互利的关系，无论对方是副总裁还是首席财务官。这是我们为理解他们的优先事项所付出的努力，是我们调整汇报和反馈的方式。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. Everyone reports to someone, and managing up is how we proactively build a productive, mutually beneficial relationship with our boss, whether that person is a VP or the CFO. It's the effort we put into understanding their priorities. It's the way we tailor updates and feedback.

这是在平衡他们的需求与我们的需求。这是一系列需要不断磨练的技能，因为向上管理并非一劳永逸之事。幸运的是，高管教练梅洛迪·威尔丁在她的新书中，将处理与上司关系的工作分解为十场对话。她的书名为《向上管理：如何从掌权者那里获得你需要的东西》。

It's balancing their needs with ours. It's a mix of skills you keep honing because managing up isn't something you ever really finish. Thankfully, in executive coach Melody Wilding's new book, she breaks the work of navigating your relationship with your boss into 10 conversations. Conversations. Her book's called Managing Up, How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge.

书中，她为我们准备了关于界限、能见度、晋升和金钱的对话。但在这些之前，她强烈建议先进行两场基础对话：一场关于目标对齐，另一场关于风格协调。

In it, she prepares us for conversations about boundaries, about visibility, about advancement, about money. Before those, though, she strongly recommends having two foundational conversations, one about alignment and one about styles.

简而言之，目标对齐对话就是建立明确的期望，与你的经理就成功的标准达成共识。如果说目标对齐对话关乎我们要实现什么、最应该投入时间和精力的重点，那么风格对话则是关于我们如何共同实现目标，尽管我们可能有不同的个性、方法和偏好。

Very simply put, the alignment conversation is creating clear expectations, getting on the same page with your manager about what success looks like. If the alignment conversation is about what we're accomplishing, what's most important to be spending time and energy on, then the styles conversation is how do we accomplish it together, knowing that we may have different personalities, approaches, preferences.

梅洛迪来到这里，帮助我们重新思考向上管理这一贯穿职业生涯的实践。她和我将举例说明如何开启这些关键对话，使其更易启动并产生更大影响。梅洛迪，首先感谢你的到来。每次与你交谈都很愉快。很高兴见到你。

Melody's here to help us rethink managing up as a career long practice. And she and I will give examples of what to say so that these critical conversations are easier to get started and lead to more impact. Melody, first of all, you for joining me. It's always lovely to be chatting with you. Good to see you.

你将全书围绕十场不同的对话展开，我想深入探讨其中两场。首先是目标对齐对话。你说这是与上司应该进行的第一场（如果不是唯一一场）对话，无论你是面对新上司、刚开始了解他们，还是团队正在开展新项目。如果你与经理共事已久，却突然意识到‘我们其实从未进行过这场对话，而我一直在对成功标准做出假设’该怎么办？

You structure the book around 10 different conversations, and I wanna dive deep into two of them. The first is the alignment conversation. And you say, this is one, if not the first conversation you should have with your boss. Whether you have a new boss or you're just getting to know them or your team is working on a new project. What if you've been working with your manager for a while and you realize, oh, we actually never had this conversation, and I've been making assumptions about what success looks like.

也许我们的目标并不像我以为的那样一致。你该如何提出这个话题？是否已经为时过晚？

And maybe we're not as aligned as I thought we might be. How do you bring it up? And is it ever too late to bring it up?

永远不会太晚。如果你与经理尚未进行过这种明确讨论，很简单——找个自然的切入点。可以是新季度、新月份、新年的开始，或是新项目启动、行业变化之际。将其定位为对双方都有利的‘刷新’或‘重置’，而非解决问题。

It is never too late. And so if if you have a manager where you haven't had this explicit discussion, very easy. Tie it to some sort of natural segue. Maybe it's the beginning of the quarter, a new month, a new year, a new project, an industry change. Frame it as something that is a refresh or a reset that benefits both of you, not addressing a problem.

例如你可以说：‘我一直在思考我的团队如何在本季度产生最大影响，意识到我们需要退后一步，确保我们对最重要事项的理解完全一致。我们能就此讨论一下吗？’是的，就这么简单明了。

So for example, you might say, I've been thinking about how my team makes the biggest impact this quarter, and I realized it would be helpful for us to take a step back, make sure we're fully on the same page about what's most important. Could we have a discussion about that? Yep. Plain and simple.

我非常喜欢这些示范用语，它们非常实用。你在关于目标对齐对话的章节中列出了一系列问题，我几乎划下了每一个。比如‘我们应该关注哪些新兴趋势并可能加以利用？’‘当想到我们的团队或项目时，最让你夜不能寐的事情是什么？’

I love the sample language. It's so helpful. And you have this list of questions in chapter about the alignment conversation, which I was underlining every single one. Like what emerging trends should we be mindful of and potentially capitalize on? What's keeping you up at night when you think about our team or our projects?

我也在思考提问与提出建议之间的平衡点。比如在这次对话中，你会如何分配‘这是我理解的优先事项和成功标准’这样的陈述，与提出开放式问题的比例？你对这种表达方式有何反馈？

I also wondered what is the balance between asking questions versus proposing? So like in this conversation, how much would you be saying, here's how I see our priorities, what success looks like. You know, do you have any feedback on that versus asking these open ended questions?

说得好。非常到位。确实如此。因为在这个层级上，大家对你有不同期待——你本就应该带着战略思维行事。所以当我辅导这个层级的学员时，可以调整表达方式：‘以下是我认为我们应该关注的重点’

Excellent point. Excellent point. Yes. Because, again, the expectations are different at your level that you coming with that in mind because you are expected to be thinking and acting strategically. And so yes, when I'm coaching people at that level, you can tweak this to say, here's my understanding of what we should be focusing on.

这样是否与您的观点一致？高层是否有我需要了解的新动态？顺便分享我最爱问的问题：您和上级讨论哪些指标？比如董事会关注哪些数据？这能有效检测出上级真正在意但尚未明说的事项——因为这些正是他们的考核标准。

Is that aligned? Or does that sync up with what you're seeing? Has anything changed at the senior level that I need to know about? And let me share also what one of my favorite questions is, which is, what are the metrics you discuss with your own manager? Or what metrics are being discussed at board meetings, for example, because that that gives you a really good litmus test of what your manager cares about that maybe they haven't articulated yet because that's how they're going to be evaluated.

这个问题妙在能揭示他们的深层动机或真实追求，不仅有助于支持他们达成目标，更能帮你解读那些模糊指令、古怪反馈或会议中的反常发言——就像帮你更好地解读征兆。

What I love about that question is it could give you insight into some of this their motivation or what they're really striving for, not just to help them get there, but then to help interpret the direction they're giving you, the weird feedback that you might have heard or the strange thing they said in the meeting, it sort of helps you read the tea leaves a bit better.

没错，百分之百赞同。对齐目标的核心在于明确‘我们共同追求的是什么成果’

Yes. 100%. And Yeah. Alignment is yes. It is about what goals are we working towards?

但不止于此。还需要在行为模式和思维层面上达成共识。可以这样提问：‘能否详细说明您心目中优秀表现的标准？’同时让上级设想：‘如果三个月或半年后回顾，您最希望看到我们在哪些方面取得进展？’

What objectives? But it's not only that. It's also aligning on how how does someone succeed in this organization in terms of their behavior, their mindset. And so asking a question like, could you talk to me a bit more about what good performance looks like in your mind? And then also asking your manager to think about, all right, if we flash forward three months or six months from now, what would you love to say we have made progress on?

或者‘那时您最想向CEO汇报什么成果？’对于习惯模糊表达的上级，限定时间范围并提供选项很有效。当对方说‘成功意味着改进财务策略’时，追问：‘您更倾向A方案还是B方向？’二分法能减轻决策者的认知负荷——因为向上管理的核心就是为日理万机、压力山大的上级减负。

Or what would you love to be reporting to the CEO at that point? And if you have a manager who tends to be vague, that is one strategy that can help because you're constraining it to a certain period of time presenting options. When you say success looks like improving our financial strategy, do you mean more like this or more like that? And the magic of a binary is that it removes cognitive load from your leader. And a huge key of being successful at managing up is removing cognitive load because your manager is stretched thin, busy, they are stressed out.

你越能通过预判思维来简化上级的工作——在展现自身逻辑能力的同时——就越成功。比起要求对方抽象构思，提供‘是非题’或‘选择题’总是更容易获得明确回应。

And the more you can make their job easier in terms of almost doing thinking for them. But by doing the thinking for them, you're showing how you rationalize and the solutions you come up with. And it's much easier for someone to respond yes or no, this or that, than it is sometimes for them to generate something abstract that feels very open ended.

那么我们来讨论另一种情况：如果你和上级目标严重脱节怎么办？比如他们的目标与公司战略相悖，或你根本不认同其策略。这种情况下如何达成共识？

Yeah. So what if let's talk through another what if scenario. What if you and your manager are completely misaligned? Like their goals aren't aligned with what you understand the company's goals to be, or you actually disagree with the strategy that they've laid out. How do you get alignment in that those circumstances?

这时就需要发挥向上共情的作用。尝试理解上级的立场，至少对其行为动机保持好奇。如果对上级的某些举动感到困惑甚至质疑，可以用我最爱的开场白：‘请帮我理解...’

Yes. Well, this is where upward empathy goes a long way. And that means making an attempt to understand where your manager is coming from, or at least having curiosity about what's motivating their behavior. If you are just totally thrown off by something your manager does, you think it's very questionable, you don't understand where it's coming from, you can ask a question. One of my favorite phrases is help me understand.

请帮我理解，或者我很想了解是什么在推动这个优先事项。为什么现在感觉如此紧迫？或者你希望通过这种方式达成什么结果？你也可以插话说可能有些我遗漏的地方，可能有些背景信息我没掌握。

Help me understand or I would love to understand what's driving this priority. Why does this feel urgent right now? Or what outcomes are you hoping to achieve with this approach? And you can also interject like there may be things I'm missing. There may be context I'm missing.

那么面临哪些压力或期望？你与上级领导之间有哪些我需要了解的对话？或者是否存在某些在我这个层级看不到的竞争需求正在影响这个决定？所以我常说，在向上管理时要先假设对方出于善意，除非有明确证据表明并非如此。因为领导也是人，他们...

So what pressures or expectations? What conversations are you facing with your own leadership that I need to be aware of? Or are there any competing demands that maybe at my level I'm not seeing that are influencing this decision? And so I always say when it comes to managing up, assume best intent until you have a clear reason not to. Because leaders are people too, and they

和我们其他人一样混乱。

Just as messy as the rest of us.

和我们其他人一样混乱。

Just as messy as the rest of us.

我觉得我们已经给了人们很多关于协调的策略。现在让我们谈谈第二个对话，老实说这是我最喜欢的十大对话之一，就是风格对话。我认为讨论你提到的四种管理风格会很有帮助：指挥官型、控制者型、啦啦队长型和照顾者型。你能简要解析一下每种风格吗？

I feel like we've given people a lot of tactics around aligning. Let's now talk about the second conversation, which is honestly one of my favorite of the 10, is the styles conversation. I think it would be helpful to talk about the four c's of the management styles that you talk about, commander, controller, cheerleader, and caretaker. Can you give us a breakdown of each one just briefly?

好的。这是基于数十年心理学研究的发现，我们的沟通风格大致有两个维度：支配性——一个人有多强势？他们有多喜欢在情境中掌控局面或表达自己的想法和观点？他们行动有多快？

Yeah. And so this is this is based on what many decades of psychological research has found is that our communication styles broadly have two dimensions. Dominance, how assertive is someone? How much do they like to take charge in a situation or express their ideas and opinions? How quickly do they like to move?

然后是社交性——一个人有多重视情感连接？或者坦率地说，在他们的互动中多在乎他人？他们对此的考量程度和优先级如何？当你把这两个维度交叉分析时，就会得到这四种不同风格。指挥官型是支配性高而社交性低的类型。

And then sociability, How much does someone value emotional connection? Or frankly, other people in their interactions? How much do they take that into account and prioritize that? And so again, when you plot that, you get these four different styles. Now, the commander is someone who is high on dominance, lower on sociability.

这类人是典型的支配型，受成就感和竞争驱动，非常注重结果和效率，喜欢掌控，语速快行动快，非常直接，邮件简洁，对话聚焦于结果和截止日期。他们不太关心参与者是谁或他们对情况的看法，只在乎'让我们推进这件事'。这就是指挥官型。然后是啦啦队长型。

So these are people, they're your classic dominant type, driven by achievement, competition, they care a lot about results, efficiency, they like to have control, they speak quickly, they move quickly, they're very direct, their emails are very brief, Their conversations are focused on the outcomes, the deadlines. They really don't care as much about who was involved or what they think about a situation. They care about, okay, let's just move this along. That's the commander. Then we have the cheerleader.

这类人同时具备高支配性和高社交性。他们也倾向于快速行动，喜欢在情境中担任主导。但由于社交性更高，他们通常表现得更富表现力和热情，更像是具有大局观的愿景型人才。

So this is someone who is high on dominance and high on sociability. So they also tend to move fast. They like to be in charge in situations. But because they're higher on sociability, they tend to be much more expressive, enthusiastic. They're more of that big picture visionary.

他们热爱可能性，经常分享故事，比指挥官型更乐观积极。同时也是连接者，喜欢建立人际关系网络。

They love possibilities. They share a lot of stories. They tend to be more upbeat than, you know, the commander. They're connectors as well. They like networking.

与此同时，他们可能对声誉非常敏感甚至近乎执着。声誉，即他们在他人眼中的形象如何？团队在他人看来又如何？这就是啦啦队型人格。接着我们有关怀者型，支配性低而社交性高。

At the same time, they can be very attuned and almost obsessive about reputation. Reputation, how do they look to other people? How does the team look to other people? So that's the cheerleader. Then we have the caretaker, low in dominance, high in sociability.

关怀者型善于反思、乐于支持、心胸宽广，他们真正重视和谐、稳定、理解，并确保达成共识。他们会考虑人们对情况的感受。因此，他们通常需要更多时间来处理信息，决策速度较慢，有时甚至可能显得规避风险。

The caretaker is reflective, they're supportive, they're more big hearted, they really value harmony, stability, understanding, making sure there's consensus. How do people feel about the situation? Because of that, they usually need more time to process. So they make decisions more slowly. They may even seem risk averse sometimes.

他们不喜欢冲突，希望确保一切顺利、人人满意，所以也可能害怕打破现状。最后是控制者型，他们在两个维度上都较低——支配性和社交性都低。这是热爱数据、精确性和系统的分析型思考者。

They don't like conflict. They want to make sure everything's hunky dory, everybody's happy, so they may be afraid to rock the boat as well. And then last is the controller. They are low on both dimensions, low on dominance and sociability. This is the analytical thinker who really loves data precision systems.

他们以流程为导向思维，会提出大量问题，需要详尽的细节和背景信息，严格遵守规则。因此，如果你向他们推销某个想法，必须基于这一点：这如何遵循了既定规程和先例？

They think in processes. They ask a lot of questions. They want a lot of details and context. They love following the rules. So if you're pitching something to them, it needs to be grounded in how is this following protocol precedent?

这种做法是否符合规范？正因如此，他们在模糊情境下表现不佳，难以快速适应变化。由于社交性较低，他们显得不够热情或友善，因此不会成为超级激励型或导师型的领导者。

How is this the proper way to approach this? Because of all of this, they don't operate very well with ambiguity. They struggle to adjust to change very quickly. And because they're lower on sociability, they don't seem as warm or as friendly. So they're not gonna be the super motivational or mentor type leader.

那么假设你的上司是指挥官型，而你恰恰不喜欢支配性强的人，对吧？光是他们的沟通方式和果断决策风格就让你感到本能排斥，他们也不征求反馈。这种情况下你该如何调整自己的风格？

So what if your boss, let's just say, is a commander and you are someone who does not like dominance? Right? It's just feels allergic to like the way they're communicating, the decisive way they make decisions. They're not asking for feedback. How do you adjust your style?

而且你应该在多大程度上考虑调整自己适应他们，而不是要求他们适应你的风格？

And how much should you think be thinking about adjusting and adapting to them versus making requests for them to adapt to your style?

是的。我在书中提出一个观点：灵活应变而非讨好逢迎。这涉及到压力反应中的'讨好'模式——即过度取悦他人，扭曲自我直至失去本真。这完全不是我提倡的，那样只会让你精疲力竭。

Yes. There's an idea in the book I say that's flex, don't fawn. And that refers to one of the one of the stress responses is fawning, which is basically people pleasing, just contorting yourself to the people around you to the point where you lose yourself. And that is not at all what I'm advocating for. That's going to burn you out.

但关键在于有选择、有策略地调整你的风格。以关怀者型员工与指挥官型上司共事的例子来说，这是相当常见的组合。

But what is important is to flex your style selectively and strategically. And so let's take the example of a caretaker, you as an employee, working with a commander boss. That's a pretty common combination.

确实。

Yeah.

你可能会意识到，如果我一开始就提供大量背景信息，比如告诉上司‘我们是如何走到这一步的，谁参与了，某某对此不满’等等，上司很可能会打断你说‘我不关心这些，直接说重点’或‘告诉我下一步该做什么’。你感到被忽视，心想‘我花了这么多时间协调各方意见，上司却毫不在意’。

And what you might realize is that, okay, if I lead with a lot of context, if I tell my boss, Well, here's how we got here and here's who's on board and so and so was upset with this and your boss is likely going to cut you off and say, I don't really care. Just tell me the bottom line, right? Or tell me what needs to be done next. I don't need the whole backstory and you feel dismissed, right? And you feel like I spent so much time on this advocating, trying to get everyone on the same page, and my boss just blew me off.

现在，如果你是这种人，只需稍微调整表达方式：‘感谢会面，我先汇报与产品团队沟通的核心结论——我们需要做出这个决定’，然后再补充背景信息。先讲结论，再提供上下文。

Now, if you're that if you're that person, if you just make a little tweak to how you present that to say, Okay, thanks for meeting with me. Let me tell you like the key takeaway from my conversation with the product team. It was that we need to make this decision. And then you get into some of the context. You lead with the bottom line and then you provide context.

甚至可以说：‘我先说重点，稍后您需要更多细节我再展开’。这样做并非重大妥协，也不是背叛自我，而是确保你的想法、需求和请求能被对方真正听取。

Or you even say, let me just give you upfront the headline. I can get into more details after that if you need more. What this does, it's not a huge sacrifice for you. It's not you betraying who you are. It's making sure that your ideas, what you need, your requests is actually going to be heard and received by the other person.

那么在讨论沟通风格时，你会如何明确表达意图？我想大多数人不会喜欢被说‘你是命令型，我是鼓励型’吧？

So in the the conversations around style, how explicit are you that this is what you're talking about? I don't think most people would respond well. You're a commander. I'm a cheerleader. Right?

具体会怎么说？比如‘我希望调整我的风格来配合你’，还是‘希望你能配合我的风格’？

Like so how explicit are you? Like, I want to align my style with your style, or I'm hoping you'll align your style with my style.

没错。这里需要讲究技巧，尤其对资深人士而言。你的专业资历赋予更多话语权，可以更直接地提出：‘为确保我们高效合作，我想讨论如何相互反馈以加速决策’。这不是示弱，而是隐含‘我会了解你的需求，也分享我的习惯，寻求折中方案’。

Yes. Yes. And this is where nuance matters, especially if a bit more seasoned in your career. You have more leverage because of your expertise, because of your tenure. And so you would be more able to approach this type of conversation and say, I want to make sure we work together in the most effective way possible.

这样既不是把自己放在弱势位置，也表达了‘我会询问你的偏好，同时说明我的工作方式，期待找到平衡点’。

And so I would love to talk about how we give each other feedback so that we can move as quickly as we need to move. Right? And it's less of you putting yourself in a one down position and more saying it what's built into there is I'm going to ask you for your desires. I'm also gonna share what works for me, and hopefully we can meet in the middle there.

对。如果风格冲突严重，我甚至会先说‘明白你的需求，我会尽量以这种方式传达信息’，然后补充‘但我的习惯是这样，可能做不到完美’。这也是承认风格差异可能导致摩擦的方式。

Yep. I can even imagine saying because if your styles are very much in conflict, saying, okay, hear you. Right? That's helpful to know. I'm gonna do my best to deliver information this way or whatever it is.

这期节目的部分灵感来自我们的‘Ask the Amys’环节——我们解答听众提问并提供建议。上期节目发布后，收到大量关于上司管理的问题，让我们意识到需要给听众更多处理这种重要却棘手关系的建议。接下来有几个听众案例想和你探讨。

But just so you know, my style is to do this, so it might not be perfect. Right? It's also another way to acknowledge our styles are different. Maybe some of the clash we're feeling is because of these style differences. Yeah.

好的。这期节目的部分动因其实源于我们的‘请教Amy’环节，我们收集听众问题并讨论给出建议。上一期节目发布后，收到大量关于如何与上司相处的提问，让我们觉得有必要为听众提供更多管理这种关键且常令人焦虑关系的建议。现在有几个具体案例想和你分析。

Alright. The impetus for this episode actually partly came from the fact that we do these episodes called ask the Amy's, where we take listener questions, and Amy and I chew over them and and give some advice. And the last round that we did, that episode came out a little while ago, there were so many questions about bosses. And we thought, oh, we really need to give our listeners more advice about how to manage this critical relationship, which often feels so fraught. So we actually have a few listener dilemmas I'd love to talk through with you.

这些是事先给我们写信的听众，知道我们将要与你对话。他们渴望获得梅洛迪的所有智慧。第一位听众，我想这是在斯泰尔斯对话中提到的，她曾为另一位老板工作但错失了晋升机会。她意识到部分原因在于那位老板不了解她的工作内容。现在她遇到一位新经理，这位经理明确表示不喜欢每周一次的信息轰炸，而希望获得更简短的实时更新。

These are people who wrote into us knowing we were gonna be chatting with you. So they're looking for all of the Melody wisdom. The first one is someone, I think this is in the Styles conversation, but she used to work for a different boss and was passed over for a promotion. And she realized that part of the reason she was passed over was because that boss didn't have visibility into her work. So she's now at this moment working with a new manager who has said that he doesn't like a once a week info dump and wants shorter real time updates.

但这不符合她的风格。她不想让经理觉得自己总在求助——因为当她真的在周中联系经理讨论想法或草稿时，要么演变成冗长的对话，要么直接被忽视。所以她不愿因等待经理反馈而耽误进度。她意识到自己既没表达清楚需求，也没展现工作价值。她非常担心再次陷入被认为不够晋升资格的境地。

But this is not her style. She doesn't want him to think that she's like constantly needing help because when she does reach out midweek with an idea or a rough draft, it turns into a long conversation or he ignores her. And so she doesn't want to wait on him to move forward. She realizes she's not doing a good job of communicating with him in terms of both what she needs, but also what value she's bringing. And she's really worried about being in the same position of being told that she's not ready for a promotion.

这个人该怎么办？

What should this person do?

是的。我建议她发送简短的知会型更新，在达成某些里程碑、取得进展或做出重要决定时，明确标注这些只是供参考的信息。这些更新应该更侧重成果而非状态汇报，并采用'嘿，只是想让你知道'或'同步最新进展'这样的表述，而非寻求意见。要让经理能快速浏览而不必回复。

Yeah. What I would recommend is that she is sending brief FYI updates and making it clear they are just FYI updates when she hits certain milestones or there's progress or certain important decisions are made. So these should be more outcome based versus status updates. And they should be framed more as, Hey, just wanted to let you know, or keeping you in the loop here, rather than asking for input. It should be something that her manager can just scan without needing to respond to.

她甚至可以说'仅供知悉，无需回复'。这样既能增加透明度，又不会显得依赖性强。本质上是在说：'我只是让你了解工作动态'。

And she might even say that this is for your awareness, no need to respond. And so this creates more visibility without creating the perception of dependency. It's more of just, I'm I'm giving you giving you a look into what's happening.

对。我也喜欢这种方式，因为知会性更新不会引发互动。虽然老板说过'我不想要任何意外'，但他不回应或让对话变得冗长，可能也暗示他实际需要的互动频率比他声称的要低。

Right. I like that too because the FYI is then she's not engaging. I think the boss has said, I don't want any surprises. But the fact that he's not being responsive or it turns into a long conversation is maybe also a sign that he doesn't really want to engage as often as he thinks he does.

没错。完全正确。当她确实需要支持或有问题时，应该这样表达：'我遇到一个挑战，希望能听听您对我处理方式的看法'。

Correct. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And when she does approach him for support or for help or with questions, the framing should be, I'm having a challenge and I would love to get your thoughts on my approach.

带着明确观点去找他，而不是问'您觉得这里该怎么办？'——这种开放式提问效果不好。应该说：'这是我考虑过的方案，权衡了这些变量后，我认为可选A方案或B方案'。

So coming to him with a point of view rather than saying, What do you think we should do here? Too open ended. Instead saying, Here's what I have thought through. I have weighed these variables. I've come down to option A or option B.

然后询问：'想听听您认为哪个方向更适合我们'。这样就把请求框定为'我来寻求挑战的解决方案'，而非'我束手无策'。她要说明已经考虑过的因素、咨询过的人，在真正需要帮助时提出具体明确的请求。这能改善经理对她创造价值和工作能力的认知。

And I would like your perspective on which do you think is the best path for us. So it's framing it more as I'm coming to you with a challenge, not because I'm helpless and I don't know what to do. She's explaining what she's thought through or what she's already done, people she's already consulted. And she's making a clear, more specific and constrained ask when she does have help or does need help rather. I think it's going to improve her manager's perception of the value she's creating and her competency.

最后关于这位听众担心再次错过晋升被遗忘的问题——虽然我们不会深入讨论这个话题（这是书中靠后章节的内容），但必须尽早把晋升诉求摆上台面。多数人等到绩效评估时才说'不敢相信没晋升'，那时已经太迟了。

And then the last thing I'll share in terms of this person mentioned being worried about being looked over for the promotion again and sort of being forgotten. When it comes to advancement, I know we're not going to get to that conversation, but it's one of the later conversations in the book. Yeah. You need to make sure you're getting that out on the table early because what most people do is they wait for the performance review and then they say, I can't believe I didn't get it. And that's because it's way too late.

我们需要提前数月确保这一点与职业发展对话同步进行，这看似矛盾实则关键。因为首先要确认你正在从事可晋升的工作，这就是为何要问‘这项工作如何与领导层关注的指标挂钩’这类问题，这些都很重要。所以年初时，你就要明确告诉上级：‘到今年年底，我希望从高级经理晋升为总监’或‘从L4升至L5’——无论具体目标是什么。

We need to make sure months in advance that we're having this goes hand in hand ironically with the alignment conversation. That's where it starts because you want to make sure you're actually working on promotable work. That's why those questions around like, how is this tied to the metrics at the leadership level? That's why all of that is important. And so early on, you want to be able to say to your leader, by the end of this year, I would love to go from senior manager to director or from an L4 to an L5, whatever it is.

你需要看到哪些表现才会考虑推荐我晋升或将我的团队从两人扩展到四人？这样能提前消除关于你准备度的质疑，或许还能让他们意识到需要引入其他决策参与者。之后你们可以围绕这个目标达成共识，几个月后你就能说：‘我已经完成了X、Y、Z事项，我们还在原定轨道上吗？’

What do you need to see to be comfortable putting me up for promotion or expanding my team from two to four people? That way, you get objections out early about your readiness, or maybe there's other people they need to bring into the fold that need to be involved in this decision. And you start contracting around it. So you can say, you know, a couple months later, I've done X, Y, and Z. Are we still on track for that?

如此你便将职业发展置于优先事项，而非事后才考虑。

And so you are making your advancement a priority instead of it being an afterthought.

没错。这不同于那种‘只要做好每件事就会自动晋升’的侥幸心理，而是主动争取。现在我们来讨论第二种情况——听起来相关对话已经发生但未奏效的案例。

Right. And the sort of crossing your fingers and hoping if I just do everything right, I'll get that promotion. You're you're engaging actively in it. Let's now talk about the second situation. And this is sort of a situation I think where it sounds like maybe some of the conversations have happened, but they haven't quite worked.

我会部分引用并转述来信内容：这位女士说‘我的上司情绪化且常恶意揣测。例如上周我与CEO（上司的上级）开会时，就高层应如何向员工传达战略变革发表了看法。上司虽未参会，事后却表示若她不在场就无法信任我，指责我自以为是且别有用心’。

So I'll read some of it and I'll paraphrase some of it. So she says, I'm dealing with a highly emotional boss who often assumes negative intent. For example, in a meeting with our CEO, who is my boss's boss, last week, I shared my thoughts around how we, the senior leaders, should communicate a strategic change to our employees. My boss wasn't in that meeting, but after hearing what I said, she told me she can't trust me if she's not in the room. And that I act like I know everything and have my own agenda.

一周后，当这位听众试图解释此事影响时，反而激怒了上司——对方提高音量斥责她缺乏情绪成熟度和自我认知，显得极为刻薄。听众因不知所措只能沉默，感觉上司在逼她辞职。

A week later, this listener tried to tell her boss about the impact that had and that only set her off. She ended up raising her voice, the boss did. Told her that she doesn't believe that the listener has emotional maturity, that she lacks self awareness. Sounds like she got really vindictive. The listener just sort of sat there because she wasn't sure what to do, and she felt like this boss was trying to get her to quit.

她表示这类冲突已多次发生，但自己与其他同事关系都很融洽，360度评估也获得积极评价，唯独从上司那里得不到建设性反馈，只有含糊其辞或突然爆发的指责。因此她提问：‘能否与上司建立更互信高效的关系？’

And she said this is one of the many interactions that she has like this. She also adds that she tends to have great relationships with everyone else. She her three sixty reviews are pretty glowing, pretty positive, but she's not getting good consistent feedback from her boss. Instead, she's getting vague or this sort of flying off the handle kind of feedback. So her question is, is there a way to make the relationship with my boss more trusting and productive?

这确实棘手。

This is a tough one.

确实。

I know.

主要问题在于上司反复无常。恕我直言，关键结论是：这位上司手下恐怕难以获得长期发展。但需要说明的是，该行为已从‘难相处’升级为‘破坏性’——公开羞辱下属暴露了她自身的情感不成熟与不安全感。

Mostly because her boss is inconsistent. And you know, unfortunately, I think my headline here is that it doesn't sound like this is going to be somewhere long term or a leader under which that she can be successful. But I do think just to contextualize this for this person that this has clearly crossed the line from difficult behavior to damaging behavior. This person is publicly berating you and that this is probably a projection of her own emotional immaturity or insecurities. Yeah.

话虽如此，这里有几个不同的线索我想深入探讨。其中一个我认为很多人都能感同身受的是，当你得不到有用的反馈时该怎么办？在这个案例中，这种情况在很多方面被放大了。但我想我们很多人都曾遇到过类似的情况，比如对方只是说‘我们需要看到你更具战略性’或‘这个可以更犀利些’。而你会想，这到底是什么意思？

Now all of that said, there's a few different threads going on here that I want to pull on. And one I think many people can relate to is what do you do when you're not getting useful feedback? In this case, it's heightened in many ways. But I think many of us have been on the receiving end of things like, well, we just need to see you be more strategic or this could be sharper. And you think, Well, what does that mean?

你并没有给我任何有帮助的东西。所以这时候就需要提出更尖锐的问题，因为大多数时候我们问的都是笼统的问题。比如‘你对我有什么反馈吗？’‘你觉得那个演示怎么样？’这样你其实得不到任何实质性的内容。

You're not giving me anything helpful. And so this is where asking more pointed questions because most of the time we ask high level questions. Do you have any feedback for me? What did you think about that presentation? You're really not getting anything tangible.

他们甚至可能只是说‘做得不错’或者‘嗯，那没达到我的标准’。你从这些话里根本得不到什么。所以问题越具体越好。比如‘在那个演示中，关于我呈现市场分析的方式，您觉得有一点我可以怎么改进？’问题越具体，你的经理就越有可能针对你最关心的领域给出反馈。

They may even say like, Good job, or, Yeah, that wasn't up to my standards. You don't really get anything from that. So the more constrained you can make the question. What's one thing I could have done differently when it came to how I presented the market analysis during that presentation? The more narrow the question, the more likely it is your manager will actually give you feedback about the area you care most about.

是的。我们也做过一期关于如何有目的地提问的节目，哈佛商学院的艾莉森·伍德·布鲁克斯当时谈到了一些关于反馈和获取反馈的研究。她说要寻求建议，特别是在这种情况下——就像我说的，老板表现得有些报复性，几乎刻薄且咄咄逼人——与其问‘刚才怎么样？’（这可能演变成负面情绪的宣泄），不如问‘我应该如何处理？我要去参加这个会议。您希望我怎么应对？’

Yeah. We did an episode also about asking purposeful questions, and Alison Wood Brooks from Harvard Business School had this great she was reflecting on some of the research around feedback and getting feedback. And she says asking for advice, especially I'm thinking in this situation where the boss is being really, like I said, sort of vindictive, almost mean and aggressive, rather than saying how did that go, which might turn into a negative dump, is how should I handle? I'm going to this meeting. How would you like me to handle it?

您对我处理这件事有什么建议？

What advice do you have for me in handling it?

是的。或者如果你处在我的位置会怎么做？这是获取建议的另一个好方法。是的。

Yes. Or what would you have done if you were in my shoes? That's another great one to get to get advice. Yes.

没错。因为这也能激发同理心，哪怕只是瞬间的微同理心——他们必须设身处地想象成为你。他们说的话可能不中听，但至少有过那一刻的换位思考。懂吗？

Yeah. Because that also encourages empathy, even like a micro empathy where a moment they have to imagine being you. And it may not be nice what they say, but at least they have that moment. Know?

是的。尤其是和这个人打交道时，显然你面对的是一个非常自我中心的人。但对待这类人，你还必须诉诸于他们的利益所在。所以如果得不到想要的反馈，你可以这样说："如果没有具体细节，我可能会把精力用错方向，我们都在浪费时间。"

Yes. And with this person in particular, like, it's clear you're dealing with someone who is very egocentric. But with this type of person, you also do have to appeal to what's in it for them. And so if you're not getting the feedback you want, you might say something like, Well, without specific details here, I might focus my energy in the wrong areas. We waste time.

我们得返工重做。我希望确保你在把这份报告提交给CEO时能展现出最佳状态。

We have to redo work. And I wanna make sure you're putting your best foot forward when you send this to the CEO.

是啊。要不专门就这个问题谈谈——我无法信任你？我不太喜欢给出"该考虑换工作了"这样的建议，但我在想是否有办法和这位上司建立更多信任。

Yeah. What about having a conversation specifically about this, I can't trust you? I don't love giving the advice like time to move on, but I wonder if there's a way to build a little bit more trust with this boss.

在这种情况下，我想知道这是否已从建立关系的层面转变为几乎可以说是自我保护。因为我不确定这位经理是否有足够的情感能力或对这个人的善意。所以更像是一块灰色石头，当你成为灰色石头时，你实际上不会提供任何有趣的东西。你实际上会限制给别人的反馈量或个人细节和见解，因为我不确定如果这个人提到，就像我说的，我告诉老板当他们说不信任我时我受伤了。我不认为这是那种会进行富有成效对话的人。

In this case, I wonder if this has shifted from a point of relationship building to I almost say like self preservation. Because I'm not sure this manager has the emotional wherewithal or the best intentions for this person. So being more of a gray rock, where when you are a gray rock, you really don't offer anything that interesting. You actually limit the amount of feedback you give someone or the amount of personal details and insights because I'm not sure that if this person mentioned, like I said to my boss that I was hurt when they said they don't trust me. And I don't think this is the type of person that that's going to be a productive conversation.

我认为你必须说，听到这个消息我很抱歉。有什么我可以做的有帮助的事吗？但不要试图在情感层面上与她互动。同时也要调节自己的情绪，因为这个人的策略是升级冲突。当他们升级时，他们希望你跟着他们一起。

I think you have to say, I'm sorry to hear that. Is there anything I could do that would be helpful? But not try to engage her at an emotional level. And also working on your own emotion regulation because this person's tactic is to escalate. And when they escalate, they want you to go along with them.

不要那样做。但我认为，对这个人使用更多的沉默将是关键。所以如果她给你一些非常强硬甚至不公平的反馈，你觉得不公平，当她给出这些反馈时，只需沉默五到十秒钟，因为这会让反应石沉大海。往后靠，说，我在消化。我在消化你说的话。

Do not do that. But using more silence with this person, I think, is going to be key. So if she gives you some of that, like, really tough and maybe even unfair feedback that you see it as unfair, when she delivers that, just be silent for five to ten seconds because it's stonewalls the reaction. Sit back and sort of say, I'm processing. I'm processing what you said.

或者我想知道是什么让你有这种感觉。你在那次互动中更有分量，而不是表现出你被他们左右。

Or I wonder what led you to what leads you to feel that way. You have more gravitas in that interaction instead of showing that you're being swayed by them.

是的。让我们来看最后一个。一位向C级高管汇报的女性，这位高管是个微观管理者，把这位听众和她的团队逼疯了。她说他们称老板为独狼，因为他没有赋予她和她的同事领导权力，而是经常插手细节，做出自上而下的决定，比如基于很少的知识指导非常小的工作流程。她称之为不靠谱的假设。

Yeah. Let's take the last one here. A woman who reports to a C level executive who is a micromanager and is driving this listener and their team up a wall. She says that they call the boss the lone wolf because instead of empowering her and her fellow leaders, he frequently just dives into the weeds, makes top down decisions, like directs very small detailed work streams based on like very little knowledge. She calls it shaky assumptions.

她举了一个最近的例子说，他要求我们团队放下手头一切去处理一个客户用户体验问题，结果几天后团队发现他完全误解了问题所在。我们花了两天时间提出了错误的解决方案。无论是直接还是通过人力资源部门向他反馈时，她说常常遭遇冷漠或戒备。她还表示，自己和同事们耗费大量时间迎合他的突发奇想，而非完成本职工作。

So she says in one recent example, he asked our team to drop everything and respond to a customer UX issue only for the team to discover days later that he'd misunderstood the problem entirely. And we spent two days coming up with the wrong solution. So feedback to him whether when they've been able to give it either directly or via HR, she says it's often met with indifference or defensiveness. And she said she is spending so much time along with her peers. She says bending to his whims instead of doing our actual jobs.

团队开始感到士气低落、心不在焉，甚至不知该如何继续努力。有没有办法能让他不再阻碍我们，真正信任并授权？还是说离职才是唯一现实的选择？

They're starting to feel demoralized, disengaged, and unsure of how to keep trying. Is there any way to get him out of the way and to trust and empower us? Or is leaving the only real option?

我认为好消息是他们确实形成了更广泛的同盟。是的，这不仅是某个人的问题。希望这能给他们带来些许安慰。

Well, I think the good news there is that they do have more of a coalition. Yes. This is not just this person. I hope that gives them solace. Yeah.

此外，或许可以尝试建立统一战线——不是要伏击他，而是将问题非个人化：从'你在妨碍工作'转变为'这里存在效率问题'。我们可以提出'这些改进方案能让您、我们所有人的工作更轻松，能否让我们实施？'因为这里明显存在控制欲过强的问题，微观管理迹象非常明显。

And also, maybe there is something to having that united front, not to ambush him, but I would depersonalize it out of you're in the way to there are these inefficiencies, right? And we we see some ways to solve this that would make your life, your job, our job easier. Can we run with these? Because there's this theme of control here, right? Micromanagement is very clear.

面对微观管理者时，人们常会退缩不愿展示工作进展，因为不想被挑剔每个细节。但这往往适得其反——不确定性会让对方变本加厉。与其像松鼠囤粮般埋头打造完美方案，不如先呈现初稿：'这是当前进展，虽然粗糙但核心思路和框架已成型，我们可以在此基础上调整'。这样既让上司参与，又限定了其干预程度，避免在终将被推翻的方案上白费精力。

And when you're dealing with a micromanager, it's very tempting to pull back to not want to show them work because you don't want them commenting on every little thing. But often that backfires because then there's uncertainty and that person doubles down more. And so instead of just kind of toiling away, I call it like squirreling away and creating your deliverable and then trying to come out with the perfect solution, you do a first pass and you say, Here's what we have so far. This is rough around the edges, but we want to capture the core ideas and structure before we go any further so we can we can shape it from there. It balances your boss having input, you you putting parameters around what level of input they can and should have at this point, and making sure you don't spend a lot of energy on something they're just gonna change.

但回到你之前的观点，如果每个人都这么做，对吧，就像如果你们有一个团结的联盟都在这样做，这就不是特别针对你和你未能取悦老板，而更多是希望老板能意识到，哦，这种情况一再发生。也许这里有些问题我需要解决。

But to your earlier point, if everyone is doing that, right, like if you have this united coalition who's all doing that, it becomes less specifically about you and your failure to please the boss and more about, hopefully, the boss generates some awareness of like, oh, this is happening over and over. Maybe there's something going on here that I need to address.

没错。正是如此。

Correct. Exactly. One

我非常喜欢你的书的一点是，它全是关于掌控自己的处境。当我们遇到难以相处的老板时，有时会感觉我们毫无掌控力。所以这是一种很好的方式，把人们可能渴望的权力还给他们。谢谢你。

of the things I do love so much about your book is that it's all about taking control of your own situation. And when we have bosses who we have trouble with, it sometimes feels like we have zero control. And so it's a really nice way to to give people the power back that they probably are craving. So thank you.

非常感谢。很棒的对话。

Thank you so much. Great conversation.

艾米·B，你现在是一位领导者，更是领导者的领导者。我非常兴奋。天哪。是的，天哪说得对。所以我很高兴能和你聊聊我与梅洛迪的对话。

Amy B, so you are a leader, now a leader of leaders. I was very excited Holy smokes. Yeah. Holy smokes is right. So I'm very excited to talk about my conversation with Melody with you.

嗯。而且我，你知道，我们之前在节目中提到过你的新晋升，你现在是主编。梅洛迪，你谈到任何新职位、新变化都是进行对齐对话的好时机。

Mhmm. And I am you know, this new promotion we've talked about on the show before that you're now the editor in chief. You know, Melody, you talked about how any sort of new position, new change is a good time to have an alignment conversation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我很好奇你在这个新角色中进行的对话，既有与你向上管理的人的对话，也有与你周围其他利益相关者的对话。

And I'm curious about the conversations you are having in this new role, both with people who you manage up to, but also, you know, other stakeholders around you.

是的。这确实非常恰当

Yeah. This is this is, you know, really apropos

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为我们正在讨论《哈佛商业评论》的新战略。是的。所以我现在的大部分对话都围绕着协调一致。在与我的老板——这个组织的联合总裁——保持一致时，我想确保我的愿景与她的愿景相符。重要的是，《哈佛商业评论》的领导者们，尤其是编辑领导者们，不仅要理解这个战略，还要真心接受它。

Because we're talking about a new strategy for HBR. Yeah. And so most of the conversations I have now are about alignment. In aligning with my boss, who's the co president of this organization, I wanna make sure that my vision comports with her vision. And it is important that the leaders of Harvard Business Review, the editorial leaders, not only understand the strategy, but they buy into it.

因此，我现在进行的许多对话都涉及向大家介绍我们的想法。是的。并帮助他们接纳这些想法。嗯。对吧？倾听反对意见。

So a lot of the conversations I'm having now concern introducing people to our thinking Yep. And helping them embrace it. Mhmm. Right? Listening to the objections.

这是一个极其重要的过程，而且需要时间。

It is an incredibly important exercise, and it takes time.

是的。你所说的以及我过去几个月观察到你的是，协调一致的对话不是一次性的。不。不。它是一系列对话。

Yeah. What you're saying and what I've been observing you do for the past few months is that the alignment conversation is not a conversation. No. No. It's a series of conversations.

这这这是一系列对话。所谓协调一致的对话，关键在于它是双向的。嗯。不是我单方面向你传授智慧。是的。

It it it is a series of conversations. The important thing about the alignment conversation, quote, unquote, is that it's two way. Mhmm. It's not me, you know, imparting wisdom to you. Yep.

而是我分享计划，你提出质疑或提问。或者进行压力测试。对吧？在你消化理解的过程中进行压力测试。提出质疑是工作的一部分。

It's me sharing the plan and you pushing back or you asking questions. Or pressure testing. Right? And pressure testing as as as you sort of digest it. The pushing back is part of the job.

我的意思是，你必须带着尊重去做。我想Melody提到过这一点。你必须假设对方是善意的。是的。对吧？

I mean, you have to do it with respect. And I think Melody talked about this. You have to assume good intent. Yes. Right?

你知道，她说过当她不确定是否真正接受某件事时，她最喜欢用的提问方式是：帮我理解一下。是的。在我看来这既诚实又尊重。任何战略背后都可能投入了大量研究。假设其中还有更多深意，这在我看来是公平的。

You know, she said one of her favorite ways of asking questions when she didn't when she wasn't sure she was really buying something is to say, help me understand. Yeah. And that's that to me seems honest and respectful. An awful lot of research is likely to go into any strategy. And assuming that there's more here than meets the eye seems fair to me.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，有些人就是能很快进入状态。是的。他们所做的——这真是让人松一口气——是开始思考影响，并进行对话，阐述他们认为新计划对他们、他们的工作和团队意味着什么。是的。这表明他们正在吸收这个想法，并以非常建设性的方式思考它。

I mean, some people are just sort of dialed in. Yeah. And what they do, which it's kind of a huge relief, is they start thinking through implications and having conversations about where they lay out what they think the new plan means for them and their work and their teams. Yeah. And that shows that they're taking in the idea, and they're thinking about it in a very constructive way.

而且他们倾向于采取行动，这一点非常重要。对吧？

And they have a bias toward action, which is super important. Yeah. Right?

还有那些非常愤世嫉俗、极度悲观的人。每当有变化发生时，

And there are those folks who are very cynical, very pessimistic. When whenever there's a change happens,

他们的第一反应就是，这不好。所以我最近特别意识到，有时候人们需要更多时间来消化。有时可能需要几天时间。这一点对我来说很新鲜，因为我并不是那么有耐心的人，翠莎。我告诉自己，现在不要立即做出反应，因为我相信这个人正在倾听并思考这个问题。

that that's their immediate reaction is like, this is not good. So what I've what I've been realizing particularly now is that sometimes people need a little longer to absorb. And sometimes it's gonna take a couple of days. And so and this is very recent because I'm not I'm not that patient, Trisha. I've said to myself, I'm not gonna react in the moment right now because I believe this person is listening and is working this through.

这需要承受很多，我需要给这个人一些时间和空间。是的，然后再回来讨论。因为就像你说的，这不是一次对话就能解决的。

And this is a lot to take on, and I need to give this person some time and space Yeah. And come back. Yeah. Because as you said, it's not one conversation.

想获取更多关于向上管理的建议，请查看我们节目说明中链接的资源。《职场女性》的编辑和制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、蒂娜·托比·麦克、汉娜·贝茨、罗伯·埃克哈特和伊恩·福克斯。罗宾·摩尔创作了我们的主题音乐。

For more advice on managing up, check out the resources we've linked to in our show notes. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Toby Mac, Hannah Bates, Rob Eckhart, and Ian Fox. Robin Moore composed our theme music.