边界设定与维护要点

您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·加洛。在这一系列“必备技能”中，我和艾米·B通过汇聚相关技能的专家以及希望提升这些技能的听众，一起探讨关键的职业技能。我们喜欢把这些集数扎根于具体女性的个人经历，因为这会让管理原理不再只是理论，实用建议也更贴近现实。这不仅对参与对话的那一位女性有益，也对各行各业的所有听众都有帮助。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. In this series, the essentials, Amy B and I cover key career skills by bringing together experts on those skills and audience members of ours who are looking to get better at them. The thing we like about grounding these episodes in the specifics of individual women's experiences is how it makes management principles less theoretical and practical advice more realistic. Not only for that one woman participating in the conversation, but also for listeners in all sorts of industries.

阿什莉·查菲茨在美国农业部担任高级分析师，负责领导大型研究项目，主要聚焦学校餐食。这份工作既灵活又有结构——灵活之处她稍后会解释；有结构体现在她必须制定并遵守时间表。她几乎每天都在同一时间上线和下线。由于是联邦职位，她不允许在个人设备上接收政府邮件或其他任何工作信息或资料。

Ashley Chaffetz works as a senior analyst for the US Department of Agriculture, leading large research projects, mainly focused on school meals. The job is both flexible and structured, flexible in ways that she'll explain in a bit. Structured in that she has to set and stick to a schedule. She signs on and off at the same times nearly every day. And because it's a federal job, she's not allowed to have government email or any other work messages or materials on her personal devices.

阿什莉的生活与我的截然不同，在我的工作中，工作与个人时间的界限非常模糊。因为我自己经营事业，没有老板告诉我什么能做、什么不能做，什么时候必须上班或开会，什么时候可以处理私事。你知道，我现在就看着上周四的日程：早上去健身房后参加了两场会议，接着去做物理治疗，离开诊所后直接和一位前同事喝咖啡。

Ashley's life is so different from mine, where the distinctions between my work and my personal time are very fluid. Because I run my own business, I don't have a boss who's telling me what I can and can't do. When I need to be at work or in a meeting, and when I can take care of personal stuff. You know, I'm looking at my calendar right now for last Thursday, and I attended two meetings in the morning after going to the gym. Then I went actually for a physical therapy appointment and left from that straight to have coffee with a former colleague.

然后我回到办公桌，完成一篇正在写的文章，又开了一场会，才“下班”。说实话，所谓“下班”只是合上笔记本电脑，但晚上我可能又打开继续工作。拥有这种灵活性意味着我有时会在周六或周日划掉待办清单上的事项。我一直不喜欢必须在固定时间待在某个地方很久；我总想把一天的事情穿插着做，即使这意味着我得设边界。

Then I came back to my desk and finished up a article that I was writing and had one other meeting before I signed off for the day. And to be fair, when I say I signed off for the day, it meant I closed my laptop, but I probably came back to it later that night. And having this flexibility means that I end up trying to check things off my to do list sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday. I never liked it when I had to be somewhere at a certain time for an extended period of time. I was always someone who wanted to mix things up during the day, even if it means I have to set boundaries.

我知道自己会反抗那种僵硬的结构。我对待工作的方式与阿什莉不同，也大概率与你不同。边界能帮助我们实现这些偏好，最终让我们投入、高效并减少压力。边界本身其实存在于一个光谱上，正如我们的客座专家、高管教练梅洛迪·威尔丁所解释的那样。

And I know I would rebel against sort of rigid structure. How I prefer to approach my work differs from how Ashley does, which likely differs from how you do. Boundaries help us achieve those preferences and ultimately be engaged and productive and feel less stressed. Boundaries themselves actually exist on a spectrum. As our guest expert, executive coach Melody Wilding explains.

在一端，你的边界非常松散，你对任何事都听之任之，完全是个软柿子。在光谱的另一端，你的边界极其僵化，

You, on one end, have very porous boundaries, which is you allow anything to happen to you, you are a total pushover. On the other end of the spectrum, you have very rigid boundaries, which

就像砌了一堵砖墙，谁也不让进，但什么也出不去。因此，你要落在健康的中间地带，既让对的东西进来，又把不想要的挡在外面。阿什莉已经设定了几条值得我们借鉴的边界，但她还想画得更清晰。梅洛迪在这里帮阿什莉、也帮我和你一起想出更多办法，来向他人传达新的界限，并在他们试探时守住这条线。

is where you don't it's like having a brick wall. You don't allow anyone in, but nothing gets out either. And so you wanna land in that healthy middle, something that lets the right things in but keeps the the things you don't want out. Ashley's already set several boundaries that we can learn from, but she wants to draw even clearer lines. Melody's here to think up some additional actions that Ashley and you and me can take when it comes to communicating new limits with people and holding the line when they test them.

阿什莉，我想先问你。你现在正在挣扎的边界是什么？

Ashley, I wanna start with you. What is a boundary you're struggling with right now?

好的。首先我得声明，我在这里表达的任何观点和意见都属于我个人，并不一定代表美国农业部、食品与营养服务局或美利坚合众国的立场。

Okay. So I need to say first off that any views and opinions that I express herein are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of the USDA, the Food and Nutrition Service, or The United States.

说得对。对联邦雇员来说，这种免责声明很合适。请继续。

Fair enough. Appropriate disclaimer for a federal employee. Go ahead.

我想说，最近我遇到的最大界限问题是我的家人。他们都是很棒的人。但为了重新掌控我的时间，我每周工作四天长时间，周五短一点。这意味着我从早上七点开始工作。

I would say, like, the biggest boundary that I'm coming up against lately is my family. They're wonderful humans. But in an attempt to reclaim my time, I have longer days, four days a week, and then a short day on Fridays. So that means that I start at 7AM.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

我的幼儿、伴侣和两只狗都在家，而且都很清醒、活跃，而我却要开始工作，这确实是个挑战。是啊。你知道，工作日的开始本来可以很柔和，比如边喝咖啡边查看邮件之类的。但我现在有很多需要深度思考的工作。

And my toddler and my partner and my two dogs are all at home and all very awake and moving while I am starting my workday, and that's a real challenge. Yeah. You know, I think that the start of the workday can be kind of soft and that you're, you know, going through your emails while you're drinking your coffee and all that. But I have a lot of deep thinking work that I'm doing right now.

是啊。而且你也并不是像Ashley那样，六点四十五就出门去办公室，对吧？

Yeah. Well and it's not like, Ashley, you leave at 06:45 and go to an office. Right?

对，我哪儿也不去。是的，我只是走进家里的另一个房间。在疫情前，我确实也起得早，但那时我会出门。

Correct. I am not going anywhere. Yeah. I just go into a different room in my house. And in the, you know, pre pandemic era, I did have an early schedule, but I also left.

而且那时候我还没有幼儿，一个孩子都没有。所以这个时间安排给了我很多自由，但身边总有家人也确实是个挑战。

And I also didn't have a toddler yet. I didn't have any children yet. And so the schedule has offered me a lot of freedom, but also having everybody around can be a real challenge.

是啊。

Yeah.

话虽如此，晚点开始也有它自己的挑战。说说看？你什么意思？嗯，有一段时间我是早上八点开始。

That said, starting later offers up its own challenges. Say more. What do you mean? Well, for a while, was starting at 8AM.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我幼儿通常会和伴侣一起出门，他们通勤，大约八点离开。所以我还能赶上早上的那段时光，但我还是得，比如，把身体从大家身边移开才能开始工作。然后我就会工作到更晚，这意味着，比如，做晚饭就更难了。

My toddler usually leaves the house with my partner who does the commute with him. They usually leave around eight. So I was still around for that morning part, but I still had to, like, you know, physically move my body away from everybody else to get started. And then I ended up working later, which meant that, you know, it was harder to do things like get dinner started.

是的。有趣的是，在设定边界时，比如尝试实行四天半工作制，你也会遇到其他需要协商和设定的边界。我个人经常遇到这种情况。我很好奇，Melody，你在客户和工作中是否也看到，边界往往会带来更多对边界的需求？

Yeah. Well, and what's interesting about that is that in setting a boundary, right, like trying to do a four and a half day work week, you're also coming up against other boundaries that you need to negotiate and set. I personally find that to be the case most often. And I'm curious, Melody, do you see that with your clients and in your work that boundaries just create more need for more boundaries?

是的。即使不是对更多边界的需求，也需要向周围的人传达这些边界。所以，是的，我经常看到这种情况，尤其是在工作和生活现在如此交织在一起，无法分开，不可避免地一个会影响另一个。

Yes. And even if it's not a need for more boundaries, it's communicating those to the people around us. So, yes, I see this often, especially as work and life are now so intertwined, you can't separate them that inevitably one affects the other.

而且

And

很多时候，Ashley，我知道这对你来说不一定是这样，这很好，但对我合作的许多人来说，边界并不是会被谈论或明确界定的东西。所以要知道设定什么样的限制是合适的，什么是禁区，可能会非常困难和模糊。我认为这会导致对后果的巨大恐惧，因为设定边界并不总是没有风险的，无论是在职业方面，你可能会因此受到惩罚或排斥，还是在家庭方面，感觉无法陪伴，错过那些时刻。所以这是一个艰难的平衡。

many times, Ashley, I know this is not necessarily the case for you, which is great, but for many people that I work with, boundaries are not something that is talked about or that are clearly defined. So it can be really hard and very ambiguous to know what type of limits are okay to set, what is off limits. And I think that leads to a big fear of consequences because setting boundaries isn't always risk free, whether that's on the professional side, you may be punished or ostracized as a result, or it's on the family side, not feeling available, missing out on those moments. So it's a tough balance.

是的。我必须说，作为一个写作和谈论冲突与困难对话的人，我认为我们经常把设定边界视为一种冲突。对吧？我想要某样东西，另一个人想要别的东西。我想在某些时间内工作。

Yeah. And I have to say, as someone who writes and talks about conflict in difficult conversations, I think we often think setting boundaries, we perceive it as a conflict. Right? I want something that other person wants something else. I I wanna work, you know, within certain hours.

我的老板希望我能全身心投入，随时待命。或者我需要一个安静的工作空间，而我的幼儿想坐在我旁边，或者我的狗想趴在我腿上。对吧？不管是什么。我认为我们把它视为一种潜在的冲突。

My boss wants me to be fully committed to be available all the time. Or I need a quiet space to work and my toddler wants to sit next to me or my dog wants to be on my lap. Right? Whatever it is. I think we perceive it as a a potential conflict.

而且因为我们天生就避免冲突，因为我们希望事情顺利进行，与人保持和谐，我认为我们也经常犹豫是否要设定这些边界。Ashley，我想回到你七点开始的日程安排，因为听起来这是相对较新的。是什么促使你重新协商这个日程，你是如何设定这个边界的？

And because we're hardwired to avoid conflicts, because we want things to go smoothly and have harmony with people, I think we oftentimes hesitate to set those boundaries as well. Ashley, I wanna go back to your starting at seven schedule because it sounds like that's relatively new. What motivated the renegotiation of that schedule, and how did you go about setting that boundary?

是的。所以大多数联邦雇员都必须申报他们的日程安排，尽管在开始时间和结束时间方面有很大的灵活性。有趣的是，还有你如何在你的工资周期内安排这八十个小时。所以基本上有三种不同的方式让联邦雇员做到这一点。

Yeah. So most federal employees have to declare what their schedule is even though there is quite a bit of flexibility in terms of, like, your start time and your end time. Interesting. And also how you organize the eighty hours within your pay period. So there are basically three different ways that federal employees do this.

一种是你每天都工作八小时。

One, you work an eight hour day every single day.

嗯。

Mhmm.

第二，你每天工作九小时，还有一天八小时。第三，每天九小时，还有两个半天。

Two, you work nine hours a day and one eight hour day. Three, nine hours a day and two half days.

或者

Or

第四，每天十小时，一周四天。好，最后一种我觉得很少见，因为十小时工作日实在太长了，尤其我们还得留出半小时吃午饭。所以去年秋天我发现我的日程到处乱窜，特别是晚上，那对我来说真的很吃力。下午我的思维也没早上那么灵光。

four, ten hours a day, four days a week. Okay. The last one I would say is pretty rare because I think ten hours of work is a really long day, especially because we have to build in another half hour as a lunch period. So I was finding last fall that my schedule is creeping all over the place, especially in the evening, and that was actually really hard for me. And I'm not as good of a thinker in the afternoon as I am in the morning.

于是我就跟我伴侣聊了我想早点开工的想法，他也得同意，因为他得承担更多早上照顾孩子的事，比如喂饭、穿鞋。所以他得愿意多分担早上的活儿。现在我正处于试用期，大概第四周了，我真的很喜欢。这样周五我还能多出一点属于自己的时间，不用管家人。

And so I chatted with my partner about my desire to start earlier because he also has to be on board with that because he takes on more of, you know, making sure my kid gets fed and making sure our kid, you know, has his shoes on. And so he also had to be on with taking on more of the morning stuff. And so right now, I am, like, basically in a trial period for it Okay. Which means I'm in, like, my fourth week of this, and it's I'm really enjoying it. It also gives me, like, a bit of extra time on my case on Fridays to have for myself that does not involve the rest of my family.

因为我也可以改成七点上班、三点半下班。对，但我选了七点上班、四点半下班，周五只上半天，这样我还能夺回一点自己的时间，这又是另一种挑战。

Because I could have also changed the time to be 7AM and get off at 03:30. Sure. But I chose it to be 7AM and get off at 04:30 with the half days on Fridays so that that way I can also reclaim some of my own time, which is a different challenge.

是啊，这又是另一条边界。

Yeah. That's another boundary.

完全正确。

Totally.

我们怎么给工作设边界？怎么在工作和家庭之间划界限？可接着又怎么给这一切设边界，好让自己还有独处时间？

How do we set boundaries with work? How do we set boundaries between work and family? But then how do we set boundaries with all of that so that we have time for ourselves?

嗯，我觉得我的主管对各种不同的排班和我们各自的冲突都非常支持。

Yeah. And I would say that my supervisor is really supportive of all the different schedules and different conflicts that each of us have.

那太棒了。

That's fantastic.

所以这也使得尝试新事物变得真正可行，因为她不会反对。关于新时间表，你有和她进行过任何协商吗？没有。我的意思是，基本上，我之前描述的那些不同类型的大多数政府雇员都可以选择。所以改成每天工作时间更长、然后休半天假，这就像是，它被写成了一个选项，好的。

And so that also makes, you know, trying something new really possible because she's not gonna push back on that either. Was there any negotiation with her at all around the new schedule? No. I mean, basically, those types all those different types that I described previously are available to most government employees. And so changing to having a longer day and having a half day off is, like, it's written as an option Okay.

当我们必须申报时间表时。所以当我告诉她我想尝试什么时，她非常支持。所以

When we have to declare our schedule. So when I told her what I was gonna try out, she was very supportive. So

嗯。她之前是怎么向你表明她会支持那些不同的时间表选项的？

Yeah. How had she sort of shown you previously that she would be supportive of those different schedule options?

我的意思是，我们经常一起开会，我和其他她监督的人一起。然后还有一些她监督的人也会监督其他人，不过我不属于这种情况。所以你也能够，感受到人们对不同变化的反应。所以你大概知道你的上司是否会支持你提出的东西，尤其是当它们合情合理时。你懂吧？

I mean, we are in meetings a lot together with me and other people other people that she supervises. And then there are some people that she supervises who also supervise other people, though I don't. And so you also get to, you know, absorb people's reactions to different changes. And so you kind of know if your supervisor will be supportive of things that you're presenting, especially when they are within reason. You know?

我并没有要求什么太离谱的事情。

I wasn't asking for anything too wild there.

嗯。Melody，你共事的人是不是普遍担心他们的上司不会支持，或者他们需要设定一个界限，但知道会遭到反对？

Yeah. Melody, is that a big concern for people you work with that their supervisor's not gonna be supportive or there's a boundary they need to set and they just know they're gonna get pushed back?

当然，Amy。我会说这是人们最担心的问题：我的老板会怎么想？如果他们反对，我该怎么处理？

Absolutely, Amy. I would say that's the number one concern people have is, what is my boss going to think? How do I handle it if they push back?

当他们表达这种担忧时，你会怎么告诉他们？

And what do you tell them when they express that concern?

嗯，我觉得Ashley的做法非常聪明，就是她先察言观色。她先了解了环境。再说一遍，Ashley，你有利的一点是这里更有结构和规则，而大多数工作场所 unfortunately 并没有。但首先你必须了解你所处的文化环境。当别人设定界限时，大家是什么反应？

Well, I think what Ashley did is really smart, is that she read the room. She read the environment first. And again, what you have going for you, Ashley, is that there is more structure and rules around this, whereas in most workplaces, unfortunately, there is not. But first you have to understand the cultural environment that you're operating in. How do people respond when others set limits?

你的老板在自己的工作与生活平衡以及界限方面树立了什么榜样？对吧。我会说，当我在指导人们时，如果你能把自己的界限说成是一个实验或测试——让我们先试行30天看看效果如何，到时候再评估——这就能减轻老板的一些顾虑。

What example is your boss modeling when it comes to their own work life balance and their own boundaries? Right. And I would say that when I'm coaching people around this, if you can present your boundary as an experiment or a test, let's try this for 30 and see how it goes, and we can evaluate at that point, that can mitigate some of the apprehension your boss may have.

是的，我很喜欢这一点。我们在之前的几期里也聊过，只要你先提出来，比如说“我们先试四周、六周吧”，往往一旦开始做了，大家就会更容易接受，哪怕它本来还不是常规做法。

Yeah. I love that. We've talked about that before on on different episodes. It's just if you sort of put out there, let's just try it for four weeks, six weeks. And oftentimes, once you're sort of doing it, then it becomes much more acceptable, even if it's not part of the norm already.

你知道，Melody，我在想，我已经有一段时间没有那种传统全职工作了，也没有需要向老板开口要东西的情况。但以前我的做法总是：先在前六个月拼命干，把活儿做到极致，然后再开口。如果我想要点什么，就直接问，最坏也就是被拒绝。但我想到有些人，尤其是刚入职的，他们还没机会证明自己是个关键员工，也不了解这里的规矩，或者还没“读懂空气”。我知道你给《哈佛商业评论》写过一篇文章，讲如何在刚入职时设定健康边界。

You know, Melody, I'm thinking about it's been a while since I've had a traditional full time job with a boss who I had to ask for for things. But my approach when I did was always to, first of all, knock it out of the park, like, in the first six months of the job, give it my all, and then just ask. If I wanted something, just ask, and the worst they could say was no. But I'm thinking about folks, especially when they're new to a job, and they haven't yet sort of laid the foundation that they're a valuable critical employee, and they don't know what the norms are, or they haven't had the opportunity to read the room. I know you wrote an article for HBR, how to set healthy boundaries when starting a new job.

你觉得对那些还没机会“读空气”的人有什么建议？

You know, any advice for folks who don't have that opportunity to read the room?

嗯，我写这篇文章是因为我看到太多人一到新岗位就热情过度，承诺太多、透支自己，结果把标准定得太高，往后很难持续。所以我才写了这篇文章。最关键的一条建议是：一上岗就跟经理把“我们怎么一起工作”这件事聊清楚。包括老板对回复消息的速度有什么偏好，甚至他们希望怎么接收反馈。

Yeah. And I wrote this article because what I see is so many people are eager when they get a new job that they overcommit and they overextend themselves, and then they've set a precedent that that's the level that they're going to perform always, and that's really hard to sustain. So that's exactly why I wrote this article. And one of the key pieces of insight that I would say is most critical when you are starting a new role is to upfront have those conversations with your manager about how you work with one another. And that includes understanding your boss's preferences around things like response times to messages, even things like how do they like to receive feedback?

如果出现冲突，我们该怎么处理？因为这些看似不是“边界”的话题，其实都是需要提前商量的界限。再比如，如果我想在日历上锁块时间做深度工作，这里的惯例是什么？先问老板，然后再协商。这样你就不会一上来就强硬地说“必须这样”。

If conflict comes up, how are we going to handle that? Because those are all different types of boundaries that we often don't think of as limits we have to discuss. But even things like, what's the standard around here, around blocking time off my calendar if I want to do focused work? Ask your boss these questions, and then you can negotiate from there. But at least you're not coming in aggressively saying, this is how it has to be.

这更像是一场对话。

It's more of a a dialogue.

对，我特别喜欢这一点，因为你抓住了一个黄金时机：老板希望你入职体验棒棒的，对吧？他们想让你成功，也想把你留住。

Yeah. What I like about that especially is that you're sort of catching your boss at a great time because they want you to have a really good onboarding experience. Right? They wanna set you up for success. They wanna keep you.

所以早点问这些问题，可能正好得到最理想的答案，就像趁对方心情好的时候开口。

So asking them these questions early on might you might get the best possible answer in that moment. It's like catching someone in a good mood.

没错，我还想鼓励大家重新理解“边界”：它们让你发挥最佳状态，同时也能惠及身边的人。Melody，你能再

That and I really wanna encourage everyone to reframe boundaries that they help you be at your best, and your boundaries can also serve other people around you. Melody, can you just say a little

多说一点边界如何让别人也受益吗？我觉得这一点我们往往想不到。

bit more about how your boundaries benefit others? Because I think that's an important point we don't think about.

是的。所以我有很多客户会感到沮丧，当他们的老板或同事在最后一刻才发东西给他们，比如十二点开会，十一点五十五才收到文件。我怎么可能在这么短时间内看完？所以如果你能跟对方说：嘿，我想礼貌地请求，以后能否提前二十四小时发给我？这样我们的现场讨论会更高效、更有价值，因为我能提前了解情况。如果你能说明你的界限其实是为了帮助对方达成目标，对方就更容易接受。

Yeah. And and so I have a lot of clients that get frustrated when either their boss or a peer sends them things very last minute, and they need to discuss it on a meeting at twelve, and they're getting a document at 11:55. And how am I supposed to review this in that timeframe? So if you can approach that person and say, Hey, I would like to make a kind request that going forward, if you could send this to me twenty four hours in advance, that will mean that our live conversation time can be much more efficient and useful because I'll be able to be informed. So if you can articulate how your boundary is actually in service of the other person reaching their goals, that can give you a chance of it being better received.

哦，我喜欢这个说法。我觉得

Oh, I love that. I feel

给出设界限的理由是我平时不太会想到的，因为你会觉得，比如我得带孩子去上游泳课这种事，别人不会感兴趣，但这确实是真实的情况。

like providing the reason for the boundary is something I don't think so much about, you know, because you're like, well, it's it's not interesting to someone else to say that I need to take my kid to swim class or whatever it might be, but also that's a real thing.

对。我觉得游泳课这个例子——我们常常想，他们不需要知道，或者他们不关心。但当我被别人请求，比如有人问我能否改时间，哪怕只是简单地告诉我“我孩子生病了”，我就会立刻理解，觉得“当然可以”。这让我心理上更容易接受，觉得

Yeah. Well, and I think the swim class example so we often think, well, they don't need to know or they're not interested. But when I think about when I'm asked to do things or like when someone's like, can we reschedule that meeting? You know, even something as simple as that, if they tell me, you know, my kid's homesick, and I'm like, oh, of course. You know, like, just sort of have this sort of instinct to it helps me make the mental leap of like, okay.

“行，改时间没问题”，而不是只收到一句“我想改时间”。这其实是一种人与人之间的连接。

Yeah. No rescheduling is fine as opposed to I just wanna reschedule. Yeah. It's a point of connection, I think, with the other person.

是的。我有个略带争议的观点：在职场里，“不”并不是一个完整的句子。想象一下，你写邮件请同事帮个忙，结果只收到一个字“不”，你会怎么想？对关系肯定没好处。

Yeah. And I have a somewhat provocative viewpoint that no is not a complete sentence in the workplace. Because to your point, just imagine if you asked a colleague for a favor and you get in response to a nice email you wrote, you just get the words, no. Are you going to feel about that? It's not going to be great for the relationship.

所以要有微妙的平衡，尤其对女性来说，既要给出足够背景说明“我得取消会议，因为……”，研究显示只要加上“因为”这个词，别人就更容易接受你的请求；但又不能过度解释。一旦你开始说“我孩子病了、我工作量太大、今天还是满月”，就可能被反驳“那我们把任务挪一下”，最后把自己逼到墙角。所以给一些解释，但别过度。

And so there's a delicate balance, especially for women, of providing enough context and explanation to say, I have to cancel this meeting because, and there's good influence research to show that just adding that word because makes someone much more amenable to whatever you're asking, but not overexplaining. Because that's a slippery slope when you start to say, Well, my kid is sick and I have a lot of work and it's a full moon. And you open yourself up to objection handling where someone can say, Oh, well, we'll just move that task. And then all of a sudden, you've backed yourself into a corner. And so provide some explanation, but be mindful not to overexplain.

那怎么把握这个度呢？如果我坐在那里想，要不要告诉对方我得四点三十接孩子去游泳课，路上还要三十分钟，怎么决定该分享多少？

How do you know that difference? Right? If I'm sitting there thinking, well, do I need to tell them that I'm taking my kid to swim class and that it starts at 04:30 and it's a thirty minute commute? How do you make that decision about what to share and what not to?

我觉得很多人能在情绪上感觉到自己是不是在过度解释。当你开始觉得“我得为自己辩解，因为设界限让我内疚”，那就是最大信号。区分点是：我只是在陈述事实——“我今天四点三十必须下线，之后有安排”——而不是开始细说这些安排是看心理医生还是接孩子，一旦说到那儿，你可能就会感觉不舒服。

I think many of us, we can emotionally start to tell when we're overexplaining. We can get that feeling inside that I feel like I have to justify this because I feel bad for setting this boundary. And I think that's the biggest clue is when am I just stating the facts about the situation? I have a 04:30 cutoff today, and I have commitments after these hours that I have to attend to. Versus once you start explaining those commitments are that you need to see your therapist or pick up your kit, you may start to feel icky about that.

所以关键是当下要有自我觉察，意识到自己是不是在为自己的行为辩解。

So I think it's also having the self awareness to know in the moment when you feel like you're justifying your actions.

是的。我觉得记住一点很有用：你不一定欠别人一个对边界的解释。但如果你需要他们接受这个边界、支持它，或者你想维持这段关系，那你可能就得解释原因。我们一直在谈时间边界，对吧。

Yeah. And I think it's helpful to remember you don't owe someone an explanation necessarily for the boundary. But if you need them to approve the boundary or be on board with it, or you wanna have a continuing relationship, you probably do want to explain why. We've been talking a lot about time boundaries. Right.

我很好奇，Ashley，除了日程安排之外，你还在为哪些边界挣扎，或者曾经不得不重新协商或设定？

And I'm curious, Ashley, are there other boundaries that you're either struggling with or that you've actually had to renegotiate or set that are not specifically about your schedule?

嗯。我觉得另一个边界挑战是情绪边界，对吧？我很幸运，每天下班关掉电脑后，就真的关了。我不会再去碰它。

Yeah. I mean, I think the other boundary challenge is the emotional boundary. Right? So I'm pretty lucky in that when I sign off of my computer at the end of the day, it's off. Like, I don't I don't look at it.

我不会再打开。我有一部工作 iPhone，但我也不会去看它。下班后，我的工作邮箱根本进不了我的私人手机，这点特别好。

I don't turn it back on. I have a work iPhone, but I also don't look at that. At the end of the day, there is no possibility for me to get my work email into my personal phone, which is also great.

嗯，这是个好边界。

Yep. That's a good boundary.

但这并不意味着我就不会想工作，或者它不会以别的方式渗透进我的生活，比如有太多东西要审，我就老想着怎么脱身去专心审。所以情绪边界我一直在推。晚上我脑子里还是在想工作。

But that doesn't mean that I'm not thinking about work or it's not, like, creeping into my life in some other capacity of, like, having too many things to review. And, like, I really need to get that heads down time, and I'm just trying to, like, think about how can I get out of this meeting so I can get more time to review? So I think there's, an emotional boundary that I'm always kind of pushing. At nighttime, I'm definitely still thinking about work.

嗯。Melody，你怎么看？

Yeah. Melody, what do you think?

嗯，我很高兴我们聊这个，因为疫情后这种情况太常见了——我们失去了那种天然的分界：下班离开办公室，有一段通勤时间让我们缓冲，然后进入私人时间。很多人都没了这段过渡。所以关键就是给自己重新创造一个过渡仪式。你的关机流程是什么？

Yeah. I'm so happy we're talking about this because this has become so much more common since the pandemic where we don't have that natural separation where we leave the office at the end of the day and we have a commute that helps us decompress and then we transition into personal time. A lot of us have lost that. And so one key thing you can do is recreate that transition ritual for yourself. What is sort of your shutdown routine?

我有一些客户会在手机或日历上设个定时器，晚上某个点提醒自己开始收尾，而不是陷入‘再干一件、再回一封邮件’的状态，用提示把自己推出来。然后做某种仪式，标志工作日结束，把当天的事处理完，进入私人时间。比如写下今天三件值得骄傲的事，或明天三件头等大事，这样它们就不会在脑子里乱转，因为大脑天生就要找意义、解决问题。

I have some clients who put a timer on their phone for a certain point in the evening or in their calendar so that it prompts them to start wrapping up for the day instead of getting into this, well, just one more thing, one more email. So you actually nudge yourself to do that. And then you have some sort of ritual that signals this is the end of the workday and I am processing what is coming out of the workday and I am moving into personal time. So that could be writing down three things you're proud of from the day, three top priorities for the next day. So those things aren't jumbling around in your brain because your mind is a meaning making and problem solving machine.

如果有未完成的循环，它就会想把它闭合，于是你不停地想，想得出答案却做不到。但如果你能告诉自己：我已经写下关键优先事项，我已经列好明天要跟某某谈的内容，就能给大脑一个交代，帮助它停下来。

And if there are open loops, it's going to want to close those loops. So you'll just keep thinking about the thing, trying to get to a resolution, and you can't. But if you can assure your mind and yourself that, okay, I've written down those key priorities. I have an outline of what I need to talk to so and so about the next day. That can help provide some of that closure.

这是我想说的一件事。然后是制造阻力。所以如果你想鼓励自己做某事，你就想让它变得更容易。这个想法就是晚上穿着健身服睡觉，让你早上更容易起床去健身房，因为你减少了阻力。但如果你想阻止自己做某事，那就让它变得更难。

That's one thing I would say. And then creating friction. So if you want to encourage yourself to do something, you want to make it easier. It's the idea of wearing your gym clothes to bed at night makes it easier to get up to go to the gym in the morning because you've reduced friction. But if you want to discourage yourself from doing something, make it harder.

所以这可能意味着完全退出你的工作应用，这样你就不会忍不住去打开和刷新你的邮件或Slack，也许把它放在另一个房间。周末，我有些人会完全把工作应用和程序从手机上删除，这样他们就不会忍不住去看。但想想如何让自己更难回到工作，这可以阻止你这样做。

So that may be fully logging out of your work app so you're not just tempted to open and refresh your email or your Slack, maybe putting it in a different room. Over the weekend, I have people that will completely take work apps and programs off of their phones so that they're not tempted to look at them. But thinking about how you can make going back to work harder for yourself can then discourage you from doing that.

是的。Ashley，你会做这些事情吗？比如结束工作或者制造阻力？

Yeah. Do you do any of that, Ashley? The closure or the creating friction?

我的意思是，也许有点轻微。我工作日结束后做的第一件事就是遛狗，因为我基本上是拖到完成工作才去做。我完成得越晚，我的小狗就叫得越响。她不会允许你一直工作下去。我真的会离开办公桌，喂它们，然后出门。

I mean, maybe like softly. The first thing I do when I'm done with my workday is walk my dogs because I'm basically putting them off until I finish. And the longer it takes me to finish, the louder my little dog gets. She won't allow you to just, like, keep going. I literally, like, leave my desk, feed them, and walk out the door.

但那也很短。对吧？所以在放下工作、让它从脑海中消失方面，我不知道当我结束时一踏出门外它是否真的就消失了

But that's also quite short. Right? So in terms of letting go of the work in my mind, I don't know that it necessarily goes away as soon as I step outside at the end of

那天。你遛狗的时候会想工作吗？

the day. Are you thinking about work while you walk them?

我遛狗的时候并不总是在想工作。你知道，我的工作是有起伏的。所以在工作很多的时候，我会在一天剩下的时间里继续想那些工作。这也很困难，因为有时候，你知道，我有太多工作，很难想怎么在80小时的工资周期里安排进去。

I'm not always thinking about work while I walk them. You know, my work kind of ebbs and flows. And so in times that where I have a lot of work Mhmm. I will keep thinking about that work throughout the rest of the day. And that's also kind of hard because sometimes, you know, I have so much work that it's hard to think about how to fit it in the eighty hour pay period.

然后有时候，当那些交付成果回到下一个要阅读它们的人那里时，我的工作就安静下来了，设定

And then sometimes, like, when those deliverables go back to the person who will read them next, then my work is kinda quiet, and it's not so hard to set the

界限就不那么难了。对的。你知道，大多数人当我想到设定界限时，我觉得大多数人总是有太多事情。这更像是把它挡在外面。

boundaries. Right. Yeah. You know, most people when I think about setting boundaries, I think most people are just have way too much all the time. And it's just about sort of like keeping it at bay.

但我认为你说的工作有起伏这一点真的很有趣。我知道你有个问题。你想向Melody问那个问题吗？

But I think your point about the work ebbs and flows is really interesting. I know you had a a question. Do you wanna ask Melody your question about that?

是啊，政府可以同时既快又慢。所以有很多“赶紧做完然后等着”的情况。我们就有慢下来的时候。今年夏天，我在等一个大项目启动，又不敢接别的小项目，因为我知道节奏马上会大幅加快。

Yeah. The government can move fast and slow at the same time. So there's a lot of, like, hurry up and then wait. And so we have slow periods. This past summer, I was awaiting, like, a big work project to start, and I was hesitant to take on any other smaller projects because I knew the pace was going to pick up greatly.

那我该怎么跟主管或对自己的时间设限，才能既不会长期被闲置，也不会被突然袭击呢？

So how might I set boundaries with my supervisor or my time so that I'm not underutilized for a stretch of time, but also then not, like, taken by surprise.

你的经理对你经历的这种起伏了解多少？

How much is your manager aware of the ebbs and flows that you're going through?

我觉得她挺清楚的。她曾经做过跟我非常相似的职位，所以她真的懂我们的工作性质。有时候这跟联邦财政周期有关，那些远超我们掌控的大事，我们只能等着。

I think she's pretty aware. She was once in a position very similar to mine, and so I think she really gets what our jobs are like. And sometimes it has to do with the federal fiscal schedule, things that are so much bigger than us that we have to wait on.

嗯，你跟老板有一对一的会谈吗？

Yeah. Do you have one on ones with your boss?

嗯，有的。我们每两周见一次。

Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. We meet biweekly.

好的，很好。那这种容量规划就可以放到你跟经理的一对一里。现在已经这么做了吗？

Okay. Great. Then this sort of capacity planning could be part of your one on one with your manager. Is it already?

嗯，我们确实会聊我各个项目的进展。

Yeah. We definitely talk about what's going on in my different projects.

Ashley，我也好奇，设这些界限是不是很难，因为别人——可能是你老板或同事——知道你眼下没太多事？所以你就很难开口说“不，我有事要来了”。

I think I'm also curious, Ashley, is it hard to set those boundaries because people, maybe your boss or teammates know you don't have a lot going on at the moment? So it's hard to be like, no. No. I've got something coming.

我觉得说得对。当你其实有空时，你不想拒绝工作。但同时，你又得守住空间，因为你很快就会有大量工作。是啊。

I think that's accurate. You don't wanna decline work when you actually have time to do it. Right. And at the same time, you wanna make sure to hold the space because you know you will soon have so much more work. Yeah.

我觉得那是一条模糊的界限。

And that's a wiggly boundary, I think.

是啊。那么，Melody，你怎么看？我的意思是，这仍然像是在无聊之间来回波动，也许还会惹恼那些同事，他们会想，我看到你坐在那里，或者我没看到你，但我知道你坐在那里却没什么事可做。然后也有点像是打开闸门，被压得喘不过气。

Yeah. So, Melody, what do you think? Like, I mean, it's sort of still, like, this fluctuation between boredom, maybe irking your colleagues who are like, I see you sitting there, or I don't see you, but I know you're sitting there without much to do. And then also just sort of opening the floodgates and and getting overwhelmed.

嗯，我在这儿说几点。我觉得在让自己保持投入方面，可以想想如何策略性地利用这些空闲时间。有没有一些流程、系统，或者可以优化的环节，这些本身就像是一种边界，日后当工作再次忙碌起来时能帮到你？我举个简单的例子。

Yeah. I'll say a few things here. I think in terms of keeping yourself engaged, think about how you might use these slow times strategically. Are there processes, systems, are there areas you can streamline that are in a way their own boundaries that can help you down the road when work starts to pick up again? I'll give you a quick example.

我经常和产品经理、项目经理合作，他们常常会被销售、业务拓展、市场等部门的人用各种需求轰炸。这会分散注意力，他们不知道该优先处理什么，容易应接不暇。所以我常让他们建立某种标准化流程，比如，他们可以设置一个功能需求表单，别人必须填写，这样就能把所有需求集中起来，并设定一些边界、参数或标准，明确哪些能做哪些不能做，从而保护他们的时间不被其他干扰占用。

I often work with people who are product managers, project managers, and they often have people from sales, business development, marketing coming to them with every request under the sun. And it can be distracting. They don't know what to prioritize. It can be overwhelming. So a boundary that I often have them create is creating some sort of standardized process where, for example, they might have literally a form for a feature request that people have to fill out that then streamlines all of those requests that they get and sets some boundaries, parameters or criteria around what they can and can't do and protects their time from all of those other distractions.

所以我鼓励你思考两点：第一，如何更策略地利用这段空闲时间；第二，当工作再次忙碌时，你该如何在需要的地方设立边界。比如，Ashley，你应该不直接带团队，对吧？

So I would encourage you to think about that. First of all, how you might use the slow time more strategically. Second is to think about for yourself when work starts to pick up again, where can you then draw boundaries as needed? So for example, Ashley, I don't think you manage people. Is that right?

我不会。好吧。但举个例子，当你和不同的利益相关者开会时，你知道当事情变得繁忙时，你可能需要把这些会议从六十分钟缩短到三十分钟，或者从每两周一次改为每月一次。但你要自己清楚，当事情再次变得繁忙时，我可以做出哪些权衡，以及我需要设定哪些界限。最后一点，在与你的老板或其他人平衡时，当他们给你分配其他工作时，提前说明你预计会有一段繁忙时期，这一点很重要。

I don't. Okay. But just for example, there may be meetings you have with different stakeholders that you know when things pick up, you may need to decrease those from sixty minutes to thirty minutes or from biweekly to once a month. But be clear within yourself about what are those trade offs I can make and those boundaries I'll need to set when things get busy again. And then the last thing around striking the balance with your boss or other people, when they come to you with other work, it's going to be important to be upfront that you're anticipating a busy time coming up.

Ashley，你觉得怎么样？

How does that land, Ashley?

某种程度上，说得太对了。我在一个政府之外的项目上工作。说“之外”，我的意思是，参与者都是非政府人员，资金也是独立的，但因为我在某些主题上的专业知识，被邀请参与。嗯哼。最初是每两周一次会议，后来变成了每两周一次会议加上每周一次会议。

To some degree, right on. I work on a project that is outside of the government. By outside, I mean, it's all nongovernmental people and funded separately, but was asked to participate given some subject matter expertise. Mhmm. And initially, this was one meeting every other week, and then it became one meeting every other week plus one meeting every week.

这占了我工作周的不少时间。再加上会议之外你实际要做的工作。对吧？所以，当我的当前大型项目开始推进时，我对那个项目特别说，我需要取消其中一次会议。如果你们需要我在会议中提供具体的专业知识，我可以按需参加。

And that's not a small amount of my work week. Plus the actual work that you do outside of the meetings. Right? And so at some point for that project in particular, when my my current large project picked up, I was like, I need to drop one of these meetings. If you need my specific expertise in the meeting, I can join on an ad hoc basis.

但每周都参加，我觉得不一定有帮助，因为很多议题并不一定会用到我的专业知识。所以我基本上每周少参加了一次会议。

But joining every week is, I don't think, necessarily helpful because a lot of the topics were not necessarily using my subject matter expertise. And so I essentially got out of one meeting per week.

Ashley，我喜欢你刚才的回答，因为你很自然地用到了一个很棒的设界技巧，叫做“积极拒绝”。这是来自哈佛法学院的William Urie提出的方法：先拒绝原请求，但告诉对方你能做什么。所以我不能做x，但我能做y。

Ashley, what I love about that response is you very naturally led yourself to a great boundary technique, which is called the positive no. So this comes from William Urie. He is at Harvard Law School. And this is his technique where you say no to the initial request, but you share what you can do. So I can't do x, but what I can do is y.

于是你说，这两场会我都参加不了，但我能参加其中一场。给出这种替代方案往往很有效。

So you said, I can't attend these two meetings. I can attend one of them. Presenting that trade off can be very effective.

嗯。我想再绕回来，Ashley，你提到工作与生活边界的问题，早上7点开始确实有点难。最有帮助的是什么？Melody和我能怎么帮你解决？

Yeah. So I wanna loop back because I know, Ashley, you were you know, you're talking about this work life boundary. The 7AM start is a little challenging. What would be most helpful? What can Melody and I help with in terms of resolving that?

好问题。说实话，我也不太确定，因为一方面，我快四岁的孩子总会长大，会明白我工作时就是在工作；但另一方面，我每天能见到他的时间也就那么几个小时，所以早上他跑进办公室跟我讲他在忙什么时，我也并不难过。所以我还真不知道最佳方案是什么。

That's a good question. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure because, like, some of it is like, well, my almost four year old will eventually get to be a bigger person and understands that, like, when I'm working, I'm working. But also, I mean, I only see him for so many hours per day. So I'm also not, like, the saddest when he comes into my office and wants to tell me about whatever he's working on in the morning. So I'm not really sure what the, like, best, like, takeaway is.

可能就是想知道怎么设这个边界，也许还包括让我伴侣更给力点，别总让他进我房间。嗯。

Just maybe, like, thoughts on how to how to set that boundary. Maybe also with my partner who probably should be better at keeping him out of the room. Yeah.

我能问几个问题吗？嗯。你理想的情况是什么样的？

Can I ask some questions? Yeah. What would your ideal situation be?

我想早上能更专注地投入工作。理想状态是，孩子进来跟我说句早安就好，不需要我帮他穿衣服，或者非要我给他倒麦片什么的——一方面他自己能做，另一方面我伴侣也能做。

I think that I could like go deeper into my work in the morning. So I think the ideal would be, you know, maybe my child comes in and says, hello, good morning, but he doesn't need me to help get his clothes on or doesn't only want me to come pour his cereal or whatever it is. Like, a, he can do that, but b, also can my partner.

嗯，明白。

Yeah. Mhmm.

他的时间表比我灵活，因为他是高校老师，只有上课才需要到校，又不用打卡。

His schedule is differently flexible than mine because he's an academic. And so he has to be on campus when he's teaching, but he is not, like, literally putting in a time sheet.

那如果你想把专注度提高哪怕10%，哪些是你自己能掌控的？

So if you were to even be 10% more focused, what is within your control to accomplish that?

可以。我想我大概能把门关上。听起来很简单，但也挺狠的。但我确实可以把门关上，而且我大概可以更强势一点。强势可能不是最准确的词，但就是在孩子面前更坚定，比如“妈妈在上班”。

Sure. I think I could probably close the door. It seems really simple, but also kinda mean. But I could definitely close the door and I could probably be a little more forceful. Forceful is probably not the right word, but forceful with my kid about like mama's working.

他确实听见了。但幼儿的不同之处在于，他们不一定在乎。

And he he hears that. But what's different about being a toddler is that you just don't necessarily care.

那我们来谈谈另一位成年人。

Well, let's talk about the other adult in the situation.

另一位成年人。

The other adult.

对。那你可能需要强化或向伴侣提出什么要求，好让你的专注时间哪怕只提升10%？

Yes. So what what might you need to reinforce or ask from your partner so that you can have just, again, just 10% improvement with your focus time?

我觉得也得请他更坚定地拦住孩子，别让他进房间，同时经营好他和孩子的关系，让孩子真正明白爸爸也能照顾他。只是早上的时候，我觉得孩子之所以只要我，是因为我不在，当然会这样。

I think also ask him to be more forceful about keeping our kid out of the room and working on his relationship and also being a person who can provide. Our child truly understands this. It's just that in the morning, he's I mean, I think he only wants me because I'm not there. Of course.

是的。阿什利，你一开始说“其实我想见他”，我觉得这句话很关键。我确实想。这些打扰在某些方面受欢迎，在另一些方面又不欢迎。

Yes. Yeah. Well and I think what you first said, Ashley, when you start asking this question about you sort of wanna see him. I do. And the interruptions are welcome in some ways and unwelcome in others.

作为一个17岁孩子的妈妈，我敢说，再过几年他根本不会这样。所以一部分也是要接受：哦，这就是人生阶段，我感到撕裂很正常。但这确实会累积成压力。早上七点坐下，却不知道“我能有专注时间吗，还是会被叫去倒麦片？”

As the mom of a 17 year old, I can say, he will totally not do this in a few years. And so some of it is about also accepting, oh, this is a time of life where I feel really torn, and that's normal. Yeah. But I will say, it does add up to stress. And and sitting down at 7AM and not knowing, am I gonna get that focus time or am I gonna get a request to pour cereal?

对吧。哪怕一周只有三天或两天不被打断，也是一种进步。

Right. You know, even if it was just three days a week or two days a week where you didn't get interrupted, right, that would be an improvement.

嗯，我想这是个可行的收获。最后我想说，孩子也在适应我的新时间表。他原本习惯那段时间我能随时陪他。现在我却说，抱歉。

Yeah. I think that's probably a, like, a feasible takeaway. And I think the last thing I wanna say is that my child is also getting used to my new schedule. So, like, he is used to having me available to him in that time period. Whereas I'm like, sorry.

现在不是妈妈陪你玩的时候。嗯嗯。我觉得他还在努力适应这一点。

This is not the time for mama to play with you. Mhmm. He's still, I think, trying to get used to that.

是啊。而且我觉得对同事来说也一样，对吧？当你设定一个新的界限，无论是新的时间表，还是你不再在五点之后查收邮件，或者别的什么，你的同事不会立刻说，好的，没问题。

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the parallel for colleagues too though. Right? Like, when you set a new boundary, whether it's a new schedule or you are no longer checking email after five or whatever it is, your colleagues are not going to immediately say, okay, great.

我尊重这个界限。对吧？他们会违反几次。我觉得这是必须记住的关键点：设定界限、协商并实施只是第一步，还要不断提醒身边的人这就是界限。

I respect that boundary. Right? They're going to violate it a few times. And I think that's that is a critical thing to remember is that it's not just about setting the boundary, negotiating, and putting in place. It's about constantly reminding those around you that this is the boundary.

对。艾米，我正想说这个，一开始设定界限时，你在打破关系的平衡。对吧？人们希望一切回到“正常”，所以他们可能会反弹。是的，这时候我们就要温和地坚持立场，因为我坚信，你在教别人如何对待你。

Right. That's exactly what I was gonna say, Amy, is that when you first start setting it, you're disrupting the equilibrium of the relationship. Right? And people want it to return back to normal, so they may push back. And yes, that's where we have to gently stand our ground because, you know, I'm a big believer that you teach people how to treat you.

就像别人下班后给你发邮件，如果你说六点下班，却又回邮件到夜里十一点，别人就不会尊重这个界限。所以你说得对，必须温和地反复强化，直到新的常态建立。

And the example of people sending you emails after hours, well, if you say I end work at six, but then you're responding to emails until 11PM, people don't respect the boundaries. So it's a great point that you do have to gently reinforce it until the new norm resets.

是啊。因为当我不得不提醒别人界限时，我会感到很愤恨，语气可能也会更冲。要提醒自己，转变需要时间，这是人之常情；试探界限、看看“她是不是认真的”也是人之常情。所以要多一点同理心。

Yeah. Because I think when I've had to, like, remind someone of a boundary, I get really resentful about it, and I think it probably comes off a little harsher. And I think reminding yourself, like, it's human nature to take time to transition. It's human nature to test the boundaries and see, oh, was she serious about that? And so to just sort of be a little more empathetic.

不过，梅洛迪，我其实想知道，如果你设定的界限可能会让对方感到意外，该怎么办？

But, Melody, I actually wanna know, because what if you're doing something, setting a boundary that you think might come as a surprise to another person?

首先，我们提到了“愤恨”这个词，这其实是你用情绪当数据，给你信号：哪里需要设界限。因为愤恨是一种情绪提示，说明某件事你已经放任太久没有处理。所以，定期审视生活里哪里让你愤恨，能帮你更善于设界限。我也觉得，在这种你之前没明说、一直放任的情况下，要承担一点责任，比如说：我意识到过去我没把这事说清楚，或者我早该提的，但现在表达对我很重要。

Well, first of all, we use the word resentment, and that is a really great way to use your emotions as data to give you a signal of where do I need to set a boundary? Because resentment is an emotional sign that you've let something go on for too long without addressing it. And so even just periodically doing an audit of where you're feeling resentment in your life can help you be better at setting boundaries. I also think it's important in that situation where you haven't articulated it, you have let it go on, that you take a little bit of ownership to say, I realize that I haven't been clear about this in the past, or I realize that I should have brought this up earlier. But it's important to me to express this now.

“当你做X时，就会产生Y后果。所以以后，我希望你能及时把草稿给我。我们能怎么做来确保这一点？”我觉得就是承认：我意识到我以前没说过，现在想提出来。

When you do x, it has y consequence. So going forward, I would appreciate it if you could get those drafts to me in a timely manner. What can we do to make sure that's possible? So I think it's just acknowledging, I realize I haven't said this before. I want to bring it up now.

你还可以补一句，比如“因为我很在乎我们的工作关系”。或者把它和某个时间节点挂钩，比如年初、新季度、新项目启动，这样听起来会更像自然过渡。

And you can also throw in, Because I care about our working relationship. Or you can tie it to a certain time of year. Maybe it's the beginning of the year, a new quarter, a new project starting. That can also help it feel like more of a natural transition.

是啊。我甚至也这样想过。我真的在反思自己工作的强度。我知道这对我们所有人来说都是个顾虑。如果那份草稿能按时交上来，我就不用加班到很晚，这会很有帮助。

Yeah. Well, and even and I've used this too. Like, I've really been reflecting on how much I work. And I know it's a concern for all of us. And one of the things that would help is I wouldn't have to work late if that draft came in on time.

我也想到一个“积极拒绝”的说法，比如：如果你能按时给我，我保证当天下午就处理完，这样后续整个流程都会加快。我不是说你总得给出点什么，设定界限完全没问题。但如果你能承认对方也会受益，我觉得这会更有帮助。好。

And I think the positive no too of, like, if you get it to me on time, I promise to turn it around that afternoon, which will speed up the whole process later on. I'm not saying you always have to give something. It's okay to just set a boundary. But if you can acknowledge that they're gonna benefit as well, I think that that can help. Okay.

所以我要设个界限：我得走了，因为我们时间到了。谢谢你们两位。这场对话非常有用，我相信听众也会收获很多。

So I'm gonna set a boundary that I need to leave because we're at our time. So thank you both. Very useful conversation. I'm sure our listeners will take away a lot from it as well.

是啊，我觉得这很棒。非常感谢你们两位。

Yeah. I think this has been great. Thank you both so much.

嗯，这种情况真少见。很少遇到有人说“我工作场所有非常坚定的界限”，所以其实聊得挺开心的。

Yeah. It's such a unique situation. It's very rare that I get to talk to someone who says, my workplace has very firm boundaries. So it was actually a lot of fun.

下周，Amy B 将以一场关于应对激烈批评的对话为本季《The Essentials》收官。

Next week, Amy B closes out this season of The Essentials with a conversation about handling fierce criticism.

无论你觉得自己准备得多充分，无论你练习或准备了多少次，面对激烈批评从来都不容易。

No matter how much you think you're ready for it, no matter how much you think you've practiced or prepared, it's never easy.

《Women at Work》的编辑与制作团队包括 Amanda Kersey、Maureen Hoch、Tina Toby Mac、Rob Eckhart、Erica Trucksler、Ian Fox 和 Hannah Bates。Robin Moore 创作了本节目主题音乐。你订阅《Women at Work》的通讯了吗？请前往 hbr.org/email-newsletters 注册。每月我们都会为你精选资源、实用建议和个人故事，助你提升并向前迈进。

Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music. Are you subscribed to the Woman at Work newsletter? Sign up by going to hbr.org/email-newsletters. Every month, we send you a mix of resources, practical advice, and personal stories aimed to lift you up and move you forward.

我是 Amy Gallo，感谢收听。

I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.