想要得到你想要的，既要坚定又要友善

毕马威通过创造价值彰显差异，比如开发战略洞察助力并购成功，或将人工智能解决方案嵌入企业以维持竞争优势。毕马威，成就差异。了解更多请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

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您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·加洛。你有没有过那种瞬间，突然意识到自己一直以来对某个重要概念的理解完全错了？我最近就有这样的经历，多亏了艾莉森·弗拉加伊尔。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. Have you ever had one of those moments where you realize that the way you've been thinking about an important concept has been all wrong? I had one of those recently. Thanks to Alison Fragail.

她彻底改变了我的看法：女性要获得权力——更多的钱、更大的权威、影响决策的机会——到底需要什么。艾莉森研究组织行为，即员工如何行动与互动，并在北卡罗来纳大学任教。她最近出版了一本书，叫《可爱又强势：女性如何赢得应得的成功》。书中有一句话改变了我的思维：女性并非因为表现出坚定而受罚，而是因为缺乏温暖而受罚。

She completely shifted my perspective on what it takes for women to get power, more money, greater authority, the opportunity to influence decisions. Allison studies organizational behavior, how employees act and interact, which she teaches at the University of North Carolina. She recently published a book called Likable Badass, How Women Get the Success They Deserve. Here's the line from that book that changed my thinking. Women are not penalized for the presence of assertiveness, they're penalized for the absence of warmth.

我一直以为这两种特质——坚定和温暖——是冲突的，尤其对女性而言。这就是所谓的“双重束缚”：你必须二选一。要么通过展示专业、给出严厉反馈或宣示权威被视为“能干”，要么通过认可他人感受、展现亲和力、让别人感到被看见而被视为“讨人喜欢”。但你不能同时做到两者。

I had always believed that these two qualities, assertiveness and warmth, were in conflict, especially for women. It's what's known as the double bind. The idea that you have to make a trade off. You can either be seen as competent by demonstrating your expertise, giving tough feedback, or claiming your authority, or as likable by validating other people's feelings, being personable, and making others feel seen. But you couldn't be both at the same time.

艾莉森认为事实并非如此。这两种特质并不对立，我们完全可以、也应该把它们结合起来，因为这就是建立地位的方式——既让人看到我们能与人合作，也能把事情做成。一旦我们拥有高地位，就能借此获得权力，即对资源的掌控。所以艾莉森的建议是：从建立地位开始，做到礼貌而坚定、随和而自信、感恩而有抱负。

Allison argues that's not true. In fact, these qualities aren't at odds. We can and should combine them because that's how we build status, by showing we're capable of getting along and getting things done. And once we have high status, that's how we gain power, the control over resources. So Allison's advice is to start by building your status, by being courteous and firm, agreeable and self confident, appreciative and ambitious.

在每一次互动中，艾莉森写道，问问自己：我能做些什么，让自己既坚定又温暖？相信我，这并没有听起来那么可怕。她会解释。艾莉森，非常感谢你来到节目。

In every interaction, Allison writes, ask yourself, what can I do to show up as both assertive and warm? Trust me. It's not as daunting as it sounds. She'll explain. Allison, thanks so much for joining us on the show.

我很高兴来到这里。

I am so happy to be here.

我能想到职业生涯中无数次我做出选择：我要表现得极其温暖、讨人喜欢，于是刻意淡化自己的专业、权威或权力，以显得更温暖可亲。比如我在韩国做管理咨询时的一个项目，考虑到韩国职场尤其明显的性别动态，我当时想，最好的策略就是尽可能温暖、讨人喜欢、不具威胁性。结果这真的对我不利。

I can think of so many times in my career where I have made the choice. I'm going to be incredibly warm and likable, and have downplayed my expertise, or my authority, or my power in a way to appear more warm and likable. I mean, I'm thinking of this project I worked on when I was a management consultant Mhmm. In Korea, where given the especially the gender dynamics in Korean workplaces, I was like, the best thing for me to do is to be as warm and likable as possible as nonthreatening. It really did not serve me.

事实上，我记得有一次会议，我被无数次打断，沮丧到当场哭出来，不得不离开会议室。我也能想到另一些时候，偶尔被说成“万事通”，那时我一心想证明自己的能力，完全抛掉了任何温暖元素。我觉得最近五六年我进步了不少，能把两者结合起来了。但过去有太多时刻我做出了选择。说实话，直到读了你的书我才恍然大悟：哦，难怪那根本行不通。

And in fact, I can remember a particular meeting in which I got talked over so many times that I, out of frustration, I burst into tears and had to leave the room. And then I can also think of times I've occasionally been accused of being a know it all, where I have been so intent on proving my expertise that I have eliminated any element of warmth. And I think I've gotten better, especially in, I would say in the last, like, five, six years of combining the two. But there's so many times in which I've made the choice. It honestly wasn't till I read your book that I was like, oh, that's why that did not work at all.

是的，我觉得

Yeah. And I think

这确实始于意识到，哦，地位是个东西。我们都经历过，但它有个名字。现在我可以开始识别它。一旦我识别了它，我就能开始看到这些方式：我没想到这一刻我在做选择，或者这个选择可能对我有利也可能不利，但现在我能看见了。至于人们决定如何生活，我对他们所做的选择真的持不可知态度。

it does start with awareness of, oh, status is a thing. We've all experienced it, but it has a name. And now I can start to recognize it. And then once I recognize it, I can then start to see these ways of I didn't realize I was making a choice in this moment or this choice may or may not have been serving me, but now I can see it. And when it comes to what people decide to do with their lives, I'm really agnostic about choices they make.

但我非常相信有意识的觉察：如果我能看见它，我就能给它贴标签，你就能选择。如果你说，我要全力投入温暖可亲，我就放下展示能力，那是你的选择。但至少你是带着觉察去做，而不是基于一个错误的理论——以为我这样做会得到观众的奖励——结果却没发生。现在我既困惑我到底哪里做错了，又沮丧因为我这么努力想从这些人那里得到好结果却没得到。是的。

But I'm a huge believer in conscious awareness of if I can see it, I can label it, you could choose. And if you said, I'm going all in on the warm and likable, and I'm just letting the showing my capability go, that is for you to do. But at least you're doing it with an awareness rather than a faulty theory that what I was doing was going to get me rewarded by my audience, and then it didn't happen. And now I feel confused as to what did I do wrong and also frustrated that I'm not getting rewarded because I was working really hard to get a good outcome from these people. Yeah.

听你说你对那个选择持不可知态度很有意思，因为我越来越不这样了，对我自己而言。我发现那些我能达到平衡的时刻——甚至不是达到平衡，而是把此刻我较弱的那一项调大。当我把它调大时，用你书里的说法，我感觉自己更在状态，而且我觉得别人对我的反应也更好。我刚休完暑假回来，昨天在LinkedIn上发了个帖子，基本承认这个夏天我没完成任何预期目标。温暖。

It's interesting to hear you say you're agnostic about that choice because I increasingly not, meaning that for myself. And that I find those moments where I'm able to strike the balance, and not even strike the balance, dial up the one that I'm weaker at at the moment. When I dial it up to use your language from the book, I just feel so much more in the zone, and I feel like the response to me is so much better. I just got back from taking some time off for the summer, and I put a post on LinkedIn yesterday that basically admitted I didn't achieve anything I expected to this summer. Warmth.

我并不完美。对吧？但接着又说，嘿，订阅我的通讯，我会告诉你我从中学到了什么。我是专家。

I'm not perfect. Right? But then also said, hey, sign up for my newsletter. I'll tell you what I learned from it. I'm an expert.

对吧？结果反响特别好，我本可以只写“我什么都没完成”，看我多可亲，认同我吧，认同我吧。

Right? And it was like, I had such a wonderful response to that, and I could have easily left it as I didn't achieve anything. Look how likable I am. Relate to me. Relate to me.

或者我也可以只写“订阅我的通讯”，我肯定拿不到多少订阅，因为缺了那种组合。

Or I could have just been like, sign up for my newsletter. I'm sure I would not have gotten many sign ups because it didn't have that combination.

哦，绝对同意。我百分百站你这边。如果要我给最好建议，我会说任何机会都要寻找既能展现超强能力又非常关心他人、真实可信的方式。绝对的。是的。

Oh, absolutely. I'm a 100% with you. If you want my best advice, I would say at any opportunity, you should look for ways that you can show up as very capable and very caring and authentic. Absolutely. Yeah.

一旦你开始思考，就会发现很多方法其实是虚假权衡——我只需做点小调整，感觉和我原本做的事一样真实，甚至更真实，因为我曾觉得压抑了自己的自然一面——结果我能两者兼得。

There's a lot of ways once you start to think about it, that you realize it is a false trade off that I could with small tweaks that feel equally authentic to the thing I was already doing, maybe even more authentic, cause I felt like I was holding some of my natural self back, I can actually get both.

是啊。那么，在谈判中——比如谈薪水、谈升职——把温暖感调大到底怎么操作？为什么这会帮到我？

Yeah. Yeah. So the dialing up the warmth, particularly in a negotiation, let's call it a salary negotiation, a promotion negotiation, how does that actually work? Like, why does that help in the negotiation?

好的。几点说明。温暖这个维度不只是我是否可亲、是否友好，而是我是否关心除自己以外的人。我们尊重这一点，我们不想跟非常自私的人打交道。

Yeah. So a couple of things. Warmth is the dimension of warmth is not just are my likable, am I friendly, but do I care about people other than myself? And we respect that. We don't wanna deal with people who are very self interested.

所以传达出这个人关心我的温暖。我想给你东西，因为我觉得你也会回馈我。所以这是建立信任的第一步。第二，喜欢是说服别人答应的最重要因素之一，尤其当他们答应的事对他们并不特别好时。所以喜欢是温暖的一个组成部分。

And so conveying the warmth of this person cares about me. I want to give things to you because I think you're going to give things back to me. So it's trust building for one. And two, liking is up there of the most important things that convince somebody to say yes, particularly when the thing they're saying yes to isn't particularly good for them. So liking is a component of warmth.

人们会为他们喜欢的人做事。我自己一直都能感受到这一点。所以每当我发现自己对某人产生自然的温暖，或者在一次小小的互动后就真的很喜欢他们，我会停一下。想想刚才发生了什么让我在这一刻真的喜欢上他们？我怎样才能把这种感觉装瓶，并在与其他人相处时重复？

And people do things for people they like. And I feel this in myself all the time. So anytime I find myself feeling a natural warmth to somebody or like really liking them when there was just a tiny interaction, I pause for a second. Think what just happened there that got me to really like them in this tiny moment? And how can I bottle that and repeat that with other people?

或者如果我发现自己对某人反感，他们刚才做了什么让我不想故意去做？因为当你有“哦，我真的很喜欢你”的时刻时，你会思考你愿意付出什么。就在不久前，我儿子去夏令营，我得给营地主任写信，因为我儿子背部受伤了，我想了解他的情况。那位我从未见过的营地主任回信说，他没事，然后又多写了几句。我无法形容我有多喜欢见到你儿子，他在同龄人中是多么有领导力。

Or if I find myself turned off by somebody, what did they just do so that I'm not intentionally doing that? Because when you have those moments of like, oh, I really like you, you think about what you would give. Just had this my son went to a summer camp, and I had to write the camp director because and my son hurt his back, so I just had to see how he was doing. And the camp director who I'd never met wrote me back, he's fine, but then he just went on a couple sentences. And I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed meeting your son, what a leader he is among his peers.

他简直是这个营地的明星。我们很幸运有他，诸如此类。在那一刻，我就想，如果那位营地主任第二天发邮件说，营地需要资金。你能开张支票吗？我会拿出支票本，给这个营地写一张支票。

He is just such a star of this camp. We are so fortunate to have him, whatever it is. And in that moment, I just thought, if that camp director sent an email the next day saying, camp needs funds. Will you write a check? I would have gotten out my checkbook and written a check for this camp.

而在此之前我并不喜欢他们。

And I did not like them before then.

嗯。

Yeah.

但你抓住了这个时机来夸奖——甚至比夸奖我还好，夸奖我的孩子。这更重要。现在想想我有多喜欢你。如果你想向我要什么，我会更愿意在这个时刻多给你。

But I thought, you had to took this moment to compliment even better than me, compliment my kid. That's like even more important. And now think about how much I like you. And if you wanted to ask me for something, I would be so much more inclined to give you more in this moment.

嗯。这让我想到你的观点，这是有研究支持的，自信会被对抗，而温暖会被模仿。

Yeah. Well, and it makes me think about your point, which is research based, That assertiveness is countered, and warmth is mimicked.

是的。想法是，当某人非常主导、非常控制时。我和拉拉·廷斯研究了，当一个人非常主导时，人类的自然反应是什么？生活中的很多行为是被模仿的。所以如果我们面对面坐着，我交叉双腿，你也交叉双腿，我前倾，你也前倾。

Yes. The idea is that when somebody is very dominant, is very is very controlling. We studied, Lara Tins and I, what is the natural human response when someone is very dominant? A lot of behaviors in life are mimicked. So if we sit across from each other face to face, and I cross my legs, you cross your legs, I lean in, you lean in.

存在一种模仿，而模仿往往会建立归属感、温暖和联结。所以我们想知道，我们会和别人进入主导权之争吗？因为我们模仿主导。如果你主导，我就更主导。然后我们俩都会试图压倒对方。

There is a mimicry, and mimicry tends to build affiliation and warmth and bonding. So we wondered, are we going to get into dominance contests with people? Because we mimic dominance. If you're dominant, I'm more dominant. And then we're both going to try to be outdoing each other.

我们发现，事实并非如此，人们并不是那样做的。他们会互补。所以，如果我在一次互动中表现得更加坚定，对方平均而言会自然变得更顺从。你更可能按我说的去做，因为我已经表明了自己的立场。反之，如果你更顺从，我就更可能表现得坚定。

And we found, no, it's not what people do. They complement it. So if I'm more assertive in an interaction, will naturally become or people on average will naturally become more submissive. You'll be more likely to do what I say because I've asserted myself. And vice versa, if you're more submissive, I'm more likely to act in an assertive fashion.

我想到这一点时，会反思自己通常是一个非常坚定的人。但在不同的关系中，比如和我丈夫——他是个非常随和的人——我就是更坚定的那一方。但我有几个朋友也非常坚定，我发现自己扮演了非常顺从的角色，而且我很开心。

And I think about this when I think about I am a generally very assertive person. But as I go across certain relationships, like with my husband who is a very accommodating individual, I am the more assertive person. But I have a couple friendships with very assertive people. And I have found that I take on a very submissive role. And I'm happy.

我觉得没问题。但我几乎认不出那是自己，而处于那个角色的人也不会认出那是我。是的。这是因为我是在回应对方的坚定。所以，如果我们更坚定，别人就更可能按我们的意愿行事。

I'm okay with it. But I almost don't recognize myself, and people in that role would not recognize me in it. Yeah. And it's because I'm reacting to the assertiveness. So if we are more assertive, people are more likely to do what we want them to do.

而在温暖方面，我们会模仿。当有人对我们友好，我们也会回以友好。如果有人对你微笑，你也会回以微笑。如果有人对你粗鲁或咄咄逼人，你也会回以同样的态度。这意味着，当我们表现得既坚定又温暖时，平均而言，会让观众变得顺从且温暖。

But then with warmth, we copy it. When someone's nice to us, we're nice back. If someone smiles at you, you smile back. If someone's rude to you or snippy, you get snippy back. It means that when we show up as assertive and warm, it is going to, on average, result in an audience that is submissive and warm.

因为如果我表现得非常自信、有能力，同时又非常慷慨，你会因为我的坚定而更顺从，但也会因为我的温暖而同样温暖。我想，还有什么比一群顺从又温暖的观众更有趣的呢？所以，如果我们能培养坚定与温暖，就能让人际互动变得更轻松，因为人们会自然地扮演他们的角色。这是一种无意识的舞蹈：好吧，你已经把自己定位为更主导的一方，那我就更顺从，但因为你对我好，我也会同样对你好。

Because if I show up, right, as very confident and capable and also very giving, you're going to be more submissive in response to my assertiveness, but equally warm in response to my warmth. And I thought, what's more fun than an audience of submissive warm people? So that's why if we can cultivate that assertiveness and warmth, we end up having these easier human interactions because people are naturally playing their role. It's nonconscious dance that we're doing of, okay, you've established yourself as a more alpha person in this. I'll be more submissive, but I'll be equally nice to you because you're nice to me.

对。有趣的是，听到“坚定”和“顺从”这两个词，我自然会想到我的狗和训狗，这些词可能带有负面含义。但你可以把它们想成“倡导”和“配合”。对吧？

Right. Well, and it's it's funny. You hear the word assertive and submissive, of course, I think about like my dog and dog training, and those words could be negative. But think about it as advocating and accommodating. Right?

所以我在倡导，而配合就是给我我所倡导的东西，倾听我的信息，给我尊重和地位。是的。

So I'm advocating, and the accommodation is giving me what I'm advocating for, listening to my messages, giving me respect, giving me status. Yes. Like

你知道，“顺从”是心理学里用来描述配合的术语。但实际上我更喜欢你的说法。如果我们早点聊过这个话题——

You know, submissive is the, the psyche term for thinking about the accommodation. But yeah, I actually like your term better. If you had we had had this conversation

那就重写这本书吧。

the book. Rewrite the book.

如果我们在书出版前聊过，我可能会被你说服去改。但没错，这就是我的想法：我想要一个愿意取悦我、愿意配合我愿望的人，顺从我的愿望，配合我的愿望。这也是我们打出“能力+亲和力”组合时带来的另一个好处，它会改变观众对我们的反应方式，以及他们在互动中的行为。

If we had had this conversation before it had gone to print, could have probably convinced me to change it. But yes, that's the idea is I want a person who wants to please me and is willing to sort of accommodate my wishes, submit to my wishes, accommodate my wishes. And that's another benefit that we get when we can hit that competence likability combo. It's also going to change how the audience reacts to us and behaves in exchange.

是的。我在想你书里引用的斯泰西·艾布拉姆斯那句话，她在CBS早间节目接受采访，被问到“你想当总统吗？”对吧？我觉得回答这种问题，尤其对像斯泰西·艾布拉姆斯这样的人——我们节目也请过她——其实是一场谈判。她的回答正如你所说，太精彩了，就是：是的。

Yeah. I'm thinking about the Stacey Abrams quote you use in the book when she was interviewed on CBS Morning, and she's asked, do you wanna be president? Right? And I think about answering a question like that, especially for someone like Stacey Abrams, who we've had on the show, is actually it's a negotiation. And her answer was just so brilliant as you point out, which is like, yes.

绝对是的。我必须说“是”，因为年轻女性、有色人种的年轻女性、所有有色人种需要知道我有能力，因此他们也有能力。这种既坚定自信、为自己争取，又——是的。

Absolutely. Yes. And I I have to say yes because young women, young women of color, people of color need to know that I'm capable of that, and therefore, they're capable of that. That combination of I'm assertive, I'm advocating. Yes.

我绝对想当总统，但我也代表他人这么做，这就是你说的那种温暖。这是强大的沟通瞬间之一，你会想，这简直是——我想你书里甚至用了这个词——大师课，展示如何回答一个棘手、尤其对女性可能因只说“是”而受罚的难题。

I absolutely wanna be president, but I'm also doing it on behalf of others, which is that warmth you talk about. It's one of those powerful communication moments where you think that is, I think you even used the word in the book, a masterclass and how to answer a tough what could be a very tough question, particularly for a woman who might have been penalized for just saying yes.

完全同意。你能想象另一种场景，有人淡化自己的雄心，说：不，不，不。

Absolutely. And you could imagine another situation in which somebody was downplaying their ambition. And they're like, no. No. No.

你知道吗？我只是来服务的，顺其自然，他们就这样。然后你会觉得，我们不认为这个人有领导风范。而她的选择真的很高明，她说，这两件事可以共存。

You know what? I'm just here to serve. Whatever happens happens, and they just they did that. And then you would think, We don't see this person as leader like. And her choice was really brilliant to say, These two things can coexist.

我可以对自己的能力非常自信，也可以谈我如何关心这对他人意味着什么。

I can be very confident in my capability, and I can also talk about how I care about that for what it means to other people.

嗯。这让我想起我开始谈判演讲收费时用的一招。很多时候我到一个活动现场，发现同等级资历、同样时长的男演讲者却拿更多钱。于是我开始说：这就是我希望的报酬，但对我最重要的是公平。

Mhmm. Yeah. It reminds me of a tactic I was using when I started negotiating being paid to speak. Oftentimes, I would show up to an event and find out the man who's speaking same level of credentials, same time of speech, all of that was getting paid more. And so what I started saying is this is what I wanna be paid, but what matters most to me is that I'm paid fairly.

而且我经常和女性谈判，我会说：我最不想发现的是，同等地位和经验的男性比我拿得多。我在为自己争取，我在提要求，这是坚定，对吧？

And oftentimes, I was negotiating with women, and I would say, you know, what I hate to find out is that a man of equal status and experience is being paid more than I am. I'm advocating for myself. I'm asking. That's the assertive. Right?

但温暖在于我们是一起的。

But then the warmth is we're in this together.

我喜欢这样。我知道自己的价值，也关心你。方法无穷无尽，有无数种方式可以既展现坚定又展现温暖。每次和别人聊他们的不同做法，我都能学到新东西。

I love this. I know my worth, and I also care about you. There's no shortage. There are infinite number of ways to do this to show up and and hit both of those. I learn something every time I talk to somebody about a different way they do it.

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网址是netsuite.com/women@work。

That's netsuite.com/women@work.

你能再举一个将温暖与坚定结合使用的例子吗？

Can you give another example of using both that warmth and assertiveness in combination?

当然可以。

Sure.

其实，更好的是，你知道吗？让我问你一个关于外出留言的问题。对，因为这是书中我划线的那部分，我当时想，好吧，我需要把这些全部复制粘贴下来提醒自己。

Actually, even better. You know what? Let me ask you a question about out of office message. Yeah. Because this was the part of the book where I was underlining I was like, okay, I just need to cut and paste all of this and remind myself of this.

因为外出留言，你讲得很有道理，说这是一个很好的机会。我想做的是，其实我读完你的书后改了我的外出留言，但我还是觉得不够好。所以如果方便的话，我想读给你听，你来点评一下，告诉我该怎么增加温暖感，或者减少坚定感，或者两者都调整。好的。

Because the out of office message, you'd make such a good argument that it's a great opportunity. And what I'd love to do so I actually changed my out of office message after reading your book. I still don't think it's great. So if it's okay, I wanna read it to you and you critique it and tell me how I could dial up the warmth or dial back the assertiveness or both. Okay.

上面写着：你好，感叹号。对吧？感叹号，温暖的象征。感谢你的来信。我尽力及时查看收件箱，但并不总能做到。

So it says, hello, exclamation point. Right? Exclamation point, symbol of warmth. Thanks for your message. I do my best to stay on top of my inbox, but I don't always succeed.

所以如果你需要尽快回复，请联系我的助理Anna。如果你是邀请我出席活动或组织演讲，请联系，我附上了我的演讲经纪人信息。你怎么看？

So if you need a response sooner rather than later, please reach out to Anna, my assistant. And if you're inquiring about having me speak at your event or organization, please contact, and I have my speaking agent's info. Thoughts.

好，你准备好了吗？嗯。我不喜欢“但我并不总能做到及时查看收件箱”这句话，因为你毫无必要地自嘲。而且我们没人能完全掌控收件箱。所以没必要那样贬低自己。我会删掉那句话。我觉得“你好”已经足够温暖了。还有，说说你在做什么？

Okay. You ready? Yep. I don't love, but I don't always succeed staying on top of my inbox because you're self deprecating for no no reason at all. And none of us succeed at staying on top of our inbox.

所以没必要那样贬低自己。我会删掉那句话。我觉得“你好”已经足够温暖了。还有，说说你在做什么？

So no need to knock yourself down in that way. So I would get rid of that. Okay. I think email is perfectly warm. And I think talking about what are you doing?

所以我不是不回消息，而是在做别的事。我在写我的脖子。我是说，当你发那条“我整个夏天都不上社交媒体”时，我是在社交平台上看到的。嗯。

So I'm not just not responding to my messages. I'm doing something else. I'm writing my neck. I mean, when you gave your I'm gonna be off social for the summer that I saw on social. Mhmm.

我记得当时想，你说你要写另一本书，还要做几件别的事。所以我会说，我就是去干这些了。我很兴奋能把这件好事的成果带给大家，对吧？因为这一切都是为了那些听你说话、读你文字的人。

I remember thinking you said you were gonna think about us another book and a couple other things you were gonna do. And so I would say that's what I'm off doing. And I'm excited to bring you the benefits of this good thing. Right? Because all of this is for the benefit of all the people who listen to you and read you.

所以这就是微调。我觉得你一句话，也许两句就能搞定，其余的就保持原样。

So that's would be just the tweak. And I think you could do that in one sense, maybe two, leave and the rest of it just as it is.

那正是我加的那句话，对吧？我尽力保持收件箱整洁，但并不总能做到。其实我是从一位男同事那儿抄的，我很喜欢，还怀疑是不是因为他是个男的才更好用。

That was exactly the sentence I added. Right? I do my best to stay on my inbox, but I don't always succeed. And I it's actually I stole it from a male colleague who had it, and I really liked it. And I wondered if it worked better for him because he's a man.

但那就是我担心的句子，因为我确实觉得女性尤其会试图通过贬低自己、转移赞美、淡化成就来传递温暖，我们被社会化成这样，以显得没有威胁。你能说说这些会怎样影响我们的地位吗？

But it was that was the sentence I was worried about because I do think there's a a way women in particular try to convey warmth by downplaying, deflecting the compliment, downplaying our successes, ways in which we're socialized to do those things to appear not threatening. Can you talk about how those affect our status?

对，我们会把自己拉低。我们倾向于在能力维度上把自己拉低。这么做时，我们就在告诉别人我不擅长某件事。而研究表明，我们是自己的专家。

Yeah. So we knock ourselves down. We tend to knock ourselves down on the capability dimension. So when we're doing that, we're telling people I'm not capable at something. And the research is we are considered experts of ourselves.

所以如果我告诉你我不擅长什么，你就会相信我。我们看研究发现，当人们说自己长得不怎么样时，别人就真的觉得他们没那么好看，仅仅因为他们这么说了。当他们说他们不聪明时，别人就真的觉得他们没那么聪明。那人们为什么还要这么做？有时是为了搞笑。

So if I tell you I'm not good at something, you believe me. So if we look at when people say that they're not particularly good looking, they're rated as less attractive just simply because they said it. When they say they're not smart, they're rated as less intelligent. So why do people do it? It can sometimes be funny.

这能化解尴尬，确实能建立温暖。但还有别的方法建立温暖，而不是以牺牲自己为代价。有其他方式达到同样效果，而不必削弱自己的能力。

It's disarming. It does build that warmth. But there's other ways to build the warmth that are not at your own expense. Other ways to get the same thing that don't involve cutting down our own capability.

对。在自我贬低之外，还有一种“近亲”行为，就是你提到的转移赞美。我觉得特别有趣，好像是克里斯·利特菲尔德说的。嗯。

Yeah. Well, in the cutting down, the sort of cousin of cutting down, what you talk about is deflecting the compliment. Mhmm. And what I found so interesting, I think it was Chris Littlefield. Mhmm.

他说，当别人夸你时，他们是在表达自己的看法。而你说“不不不”时，你是在说“我不同意你的看法”。这其实是一种分歧。原本可以是连接的时刻，你却无意中制造了一种冲突，这一点让我觉得很迷人。

He said, you know, when someone gives you a compliment, they're giving you their opinion. And when you say no, no, no, you're saying, I disagree with your opinion. It's actually a disagreement. Instead of being like a moment of connection, you're actually creating a conflict in a way, which I found so fascinating.

我知道。他们并不想要你对他们的看法发表意见。

I know. They don't want your opinion on their opinion.

对，是的。所以我们来聊聊另一种我们削弱自己的方式。关于为什么当别人问我们“怎么样”时，我们不该说“我很忙”，你有很多见解。而且我得说，我今天已经说了大概四次了。

Right. Yeah. So let's talk about another way in which we sort of undermine ourselves. You have a lot to say about why we shouldn't say we're busy when someone how we are. And I will tell you, I did it maybe four times today already.

所以我迫切需要这个建议。我们该说什么呢？

So I desperately need this advice. What should we say instead?

所以我认为你说话是有选择的，但你一天要被“采访”无数次。因为每当有人说“有什么新鲜事？”、“最近怎么样？”、“工作如何？”、“咋样啊？”

So I think you have choice in what you say, but you are interviewed a million times a day. Because anytime somebody says, what's new? How's it going? How's work? What's up?

他们都给了你一个讲述自己故事的开口。你可以选择怎么利用它。但说“忙”或“还行”——“忙”是我最不喜欢的一个。因为每次听到有人说“忙”，我就仿佛看到一个人在跑步机上狂奔，速度比他的能力快了半英里。

They have given you an opening to tell your story. And you can choose what you're going to do with it. But to say busy or fine. Busy is my least favorite. Because busy implies that I just think every time I hear someone say busy, I just have this vision of the person running on a treadmill that's like a half mile too fast for their ability.

他拼命冲刺想跟上，看起来一点都不从容。而且也没有任何温度。所以我觉得这是浪费机会——只要多几句话，你就能说点别的。我没有给你准备标准答案，但这里有些选项。

And they're just like trying to sprint to keep up, which doesn't seem very capable. And it doesn't say anything warm. So I think it's a wasted opportunity with just a few more words, you could say something. So I don't have a script for what you should say when someone asks you. But here are some options.

说点能增添温度的话，比如“能跟你聊天，我现在感觉棒极了”。我不说假话，但相信我，如果你知道我今天接下来的安排，你就是其中最棒的部分，太赞了。

Say something that builds warmth. Like, I'm great now that I'm talking to you. I don't say anything fake, but trust me. Like, if you heard the day ahead, you are the absolute best part of it. Like, this is awesome.

不管说什么，类似这种。说点能分享小胜利的话，比如“今天工作特别顺”。你不需要用45句话解释为什么顺，但能激起一点好奇，对方可能会问“哦，怎么顺了？”

Whatever it is, say something like that. Say something that celebrates a little bit of a win. Like, I'm having a great work day today. And you don't have to give them 45 sentences as to why it's great, but it could spark a little curiosity. And they might say, oh, why is it great?

然后你就可以讲一点自己的故事。任何真实又简短的话都行，毕竟没人想听长篇大论。

And then you could tell a little bit of your story. Anything that is truthful, that is still short because no one wants a lecture

没错。

Yep.

这能激发一些好奇心，也能让你告诉对方，你要么在取得成功，要么在乎他们，这都是不错的回答。所以当你说你很忙的时候，你有没有想过，其实可以说点别的？那什么样的话听起来会比较自然呢？

And inspires some curiosity and enables you to tell them that like you're either succeeding or you care about them is a good answer. So when you were saying you were busy, did you think about like what you could have? Well What would have felt like natural ish instead?

我当时想的是，艾莉森肯定会生气。我真的就是这么想的。当你把跑步机调得太快时，我心里想，没错，就是这种感觉。所以“忙”这句话听起来很真实，但也已经成了习惯。

I thought, oh, Allison's gonna be so mad. That's what I thought actually. And I did when you just described the treadmill that's going too fast. I was like, yeah, no, but that's how I feel right now. So that felt truthful to say busy, but it also has become a habit.

这几乎成了条件反射。虽然说得没错，但只是因为大家都这么说，你就跟着说了。它像是默认答案，而不是此刻你最想传达的重点。就像膝跳反应一样。

It's just a reflex. I mean, it's accurate, but it's just you say it because everyone else has said it. And it just somehow feels like the thing that everyone says as opposed to this is the most important thing that I want to reflect to you at this moment is my busyness. It's just like a knee jerk response.

对。而且正如你说的，它要么听起来像在炫耀：我这么忙，所以我很重要；要么就显得你完全管不好自己的时间，或者管不好待办清单——说实话，我们大多数人确实都管不好。

Yes. Well, and I think to your point, it has the potential to either come off as this humble brag of I'm so busy, I'm so important. Right. Or of conveying some inability to actually manage your time or Yeah. You know, manage your to do list, which let's be fair, most of us have.

这对很多人来说是事实，但我觉得说“我很忙”时，你并没意识到别人会这么理解。

That's actually accurate for many of us. But I don't think that's the impression you think you're giving when you say that.

没错。至少告诉对方你在忙什么：我忙是因为播客又要重启了；我忙是因为我的书刚上市；我忙是因为……

That's right. At least tell them what you're busy about. I'm busy because the podcast is restarting again. I'm busy because my book launched. I'm busy, know, something.

至少说明你在忙什么，也比光说一句“我很忙”要好一点。

At least tell them what you're busy doing is a little bit better than busy period.

嗯，我就喜欢这种小调整，不需要大动干戈去上演讲课，只要做点小小的改变就行。

Yeah. I love the sort of small tweaks, right, that you can make. It doesn't have to be this, oh, I'm overhauling my entire style. I'm taking a public speaking course. It's just small things.

我想再聊几个这样的小技巧。第一，你提到“每日连接习惯”，能解释一下吗？

And I just wanna talk about a few of those Please. Sort of small things. One, you talk about this daily connection habit. Can you explain what that is?

可以。别人想帮你提升地位，得先知道你存在。我们教大家要“人脉经营”，这道理谁都听过无数次，不做还会内疚。

Yeah. Just people cannot help you build your status if they don't know you exist. So when we teach people that they're supposed to network, people know it. They've heard it a million times. They feel guilty if they don't do it.

但接着他们会想，我到底应该拿这件事怎么办？于是我开始思考如何扩大认识我的人脉圈。我有几件事会尽可能坚持去做。其中我最爱的就是起得特别早，家里一片漆黑，孩子们还在睡觉，我给自己煮杯咖啡，坐在几乎没开灯的地方，先做几件事。我会先玩一遍《纽约时报》的所有小游戏：Wordle、迷你Connections等等。

But then they're like, am I supposed to be doing with this whole thing anyway? So I think about broadening my network of people who know I exist. So I have a couple things that I do as consistently as I can. One is my absolute favorite time is to get up at like an ungodly early hour where my house is dark, my kids are asleep, I make myself coffee, I sit in the almost dark, and I will do a couple of things. I will first do all the New York Times, the Wordle, the mini Connections.

等等。优先级。对。Strands这个新游戏也很棒。

Etcetera. Priorities. Yep. Okay. Strands has been a great new addition.

我喜欢Strands。

Love Strands.

我会玩这些。但另一件事是，我经常在刷邮件和社交媒体时，会发出一条新的——比如我在LinkedIn上很多，就给一个因为出现在我动态里、我觉得想认识但还没连接的人发一条新连接请求；或者给动态里出现、我很久没联系的人发一条重新联络的消息。我就只做一条。

I do that. But then the other one is I'm often, like, on my email and on my social media, and I will send either one new through so like, I'm on LinkedIn a lot. Send a new connection of somebody that I've because crossed my feed and I feel like I want to know, but I'm not connected to yet. Like one message or one reconnection of somebody that I've seen come across the feed and I haven't talked to in a while. And so I just do one.

我尽量每个工作日都做，但生活总有意外，不一定总能完成。另一件事是，每当我坐在车里等孩子下课时，我就利用这段时间——反正我通常也在刷手机——通过邮件或短信联系某人，通常是重新联络。我在手机里列了个小名单，记下下次有空时要联系的人。如果名单上暂时没人，我就打开短信，手指往上滑大概十次，一直滑到最底。

And I try to do it every weekday, but I don't always hit it because sometimes life happens. And the other one is I try to, whenever I am sitting in a car waiting to pick up a child from an activity, I use that as an opportunity because I'm often scrolling on my phone to connect with somebody through email or text. Again, generally a reconnection of somebody. I keep a little list on my phone of people that I like next time I have a moment to reach out to. Or when I don't have anyone like on the list that's have in mind, I take my finger on my phone in my text, and I swipe up like 10 times till you get to the very bottom.

我想，如果你在我的短信列表最底下，那说明我们很久没说话了。

And I think if you're at the very bottom of my text, I haven't talked to you in a while.

所以我其实把这段标亮了，因为我想“我也要这么做”。然后我还标亮了很多别的，因为都想做。但我得说，我还没真正实行，因为内向的我很怕后果：比如我发了这条LinkedIn消息，对方就会约我喝咖啡，可我不想喝啊，于是我觉得这建议很好，但你怎么在脑子里给它定个合适尺度？对我来说，感觉会像螺旋：现在我又有18条未读消息回不过来了。

So I actually highlighted this because I was like, oh, I wanna do this. And then I have a lot of things that I highlighted because I wanted to do. But I will tell you, I have not implemented it because the introvert to me is so afraid of the consequences of like, oh, I send this LinkedIn message and now they're gonna ask for a coffee and I don't wanna have a coffee and, you know, like and so I think it's such a good piece of advice to connect. But how do you right size it in your mind? To me, it feels like a spiral of like, now I'm gonna have 18 more unread messages that I haven't been able to respond to.

嗯，还是那句话，每个人得自己决定。如果这事开始带来压力，你坚持不了两天。那我觉得这策略就不适合你。但我想说，别去新认识人了，先重新联系老朋友。我们曾有很多关系，只是后来忙就慢慢淡了，并非故意。

Well, again, this is where everybody has to decide for themselves. So if it's gonna start creating stress, you're not gonna do it more than two days. So then I think that's not the strategy for you. But what I would say is forget new connections, go with reconnections. Because there are so many relationships that we have had at some point where we just let them kind of wither on the vine, not out of intent, just we got busy.

我觉得只要重新联系你已经喜欢的人，就不会突然冒出什么巨大的新请求。就算他们真想再约咖啡，你其实也会兴奋。你就从那些让你感觉自在、甚至范围更小的人开始——只联系那些你愿意一起喝咖啡的人。

And I think if you just reconnected with people, you already like, then there's not gonna be some massive new ask that's gonna come out of it. Yeah. Or if they do wanna reengage with the coffee, you're actually excited. And I would just start there with something that does feel authentic or even limited in a very specific way of I'm only gonna reach out to people that I would wanna have a coffee

的人。

with.

是的。但我也觉得，如果你想主动联系新朋友，可以把它变成一场封闭式对话。不要留一个超级开放的门，比如“你愿意见面吗？”而是说，“我一直在关注你的内容，我觉得真的很棒。”

Yeah. But I also think you could do it if you wanted to reach out to new people and just make it a closed conversation. Don't leave a super open door like, would you like to meet? But rather, I've been following your content. I think it's really impressive.

我从中学到了很多。我只是想让你知道，它产生了很大的影响。非常感谢。

I've learned a lot from it. I just wanted to let you know that it's had a great impact. Thank you so much.

嗯。你让我想起我脑子里有一份名单。我还没把它记到笔记应用里。那些我见过他们演讲、读过他们文章的人，我只是想对他们说，谢谢你做了那件事。对吧？

Yeah. You know, you're making me think that I have a list of people mentally. I haven't brought it to my notes app. Of people who I saw speak, who I read an article by, who who I just wanted to say thanks for doing that. Right?

我很喜欢收到那些信息。既然我喜欢，为什么不为别人做呢？而且不必太复杂，比如“我很想多了解你在做的事”，或者“我想问你一大堆问题”。我喜欢别人在消息里这样说，所以我还可以加一句：无需回复，我只是想让你知道我在想着你。

I love getting those messages. Like, why wouldn't I do that for someone else? And it doesn't have to be a big, like, I'd love to learn more about what you're doing, or I wanna ask you a zillion questions about this. And I love when people say this in a message to me, so I can even add, there's no need to respond. I just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you.

完全正确。对吧？所以至少这是一个建立联系的契机，你传递了温暖，嗯，你还夸奖了他们。因此，他们 already 觉得你聪明，因为他们觉得自己很棒。

Absolutely. Right? So at least it's a point of connection that you build the warmth Mhmm. And you've complimented them. So they already think you're smart because they think they're amazing.

所以如果你告诉他们你也觉得他们很棒，你的聪明程度还会再涨一点。这对你也是建立地位。因为当有人对你说好话时，你更可能想回夸他们，或在别人面前夸他们。对吧。所以如果你夸奖他们，说你真的很棒。

And so if you've told them that you also think amazing, you get even a little bump on your intelligence as well. It's also status building for you. Because when someone has said something nice to you, you're much more likely to want to say something nice to them or say something nice about them to other people. Right. And so if you are complimenting them, you did a really great job.

下次他们在一个你不在场、你甚至不知道的对话里，就会说：“那个艾米·加洛，她太棒了，我也喜欢她。”于是他们就在外面替你夸你、提升你的地位，而你所做的只是一件非常真实的事：告诉他们你真正欣赏他们什么。所以真实和策略可以并肩而行。

The next time they're in a conversation that you're not part of and you didn't even know existed, that Amy Gallo, she's amazing. I love her too. And now they're out there complimenting you and building your status just by you doing something really authentic, which was you telling them what you really appreciated about them. So it's like authenticity and strategy. They can sit side by side.

毕马威通过创造价值彰显不同，比如提供推动并购成功的战略洞察，或将人工智能解决方案嵌入您的业务以维持竞争优势。毕马威，彰显不同。了解更多请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.

好了。我们来聊另一个我还没鼓起勇气开始的练习——你的“收集拒绝”练习。你能解释一下这是什么吗？

Alright. Let's talk about another exercise I haven't had the courage to actually start, which is your collecting nose exercise. Can you explain what this is?

这是我在教 MBA 学生谈判与影响力课程时开始用的，让他们走出去，在现实世界里突破自己的技能边界。我们常常以为谈判就是要拿到“是”。但这个作业的目标是拿到“不”。所以任务是向 10 个不同的人提出 10 个不同的请求。别逮着同一个人问 10 次。

It's something that I started using in my negotiation influence classes when I was teaching MBA students to get them to go out and push the boundaries of their skills in the real world. And we often think negotiation try to get a yes. But this assignment is trying to get no's. So the goal is make 10 different asks of 10 different people. So don't just go to the same one person and ask them 10 times.

找10个不同的人，直到你收到10个“不”。不一定非得是“不”这个词，而是对方以某种方式告诉你：这事儿成不了。每收到一个“不”，你就可以把它记到清单上；如果得到“是”，就不算数。

10 different people until you get 10 no's. And it doesn't have to be the word no. It has to be the person that's essentially saying to you in some way, shape, or form, this is not happening. Every time you get a no, you can put it on the list. If you get a yes, it doesn't count.

这对你有好处，因为你得到了“是”，但不能算进作业里。没错。大多数人以为中午前就能完成，因为大家常拒绝我，应该很容易。我告诉他们，随便提什么要求，大的小的都行，这样你就不会输。

It's good for you because you got a yes, but you can't use it for the assignment. Yeah. Most of the time people think I will be done with this exercise by noon because people tell me no all the time. It's gonna be really easy. And I tell them ask for anything you want, if it's big or small, because then you can't lose.

如果对方说“是”，你得到了“是”，很棒；如果说“不”，你就离完成练习更近一步。结果大家花的时间比预期长，因为他们得到的“是”比想象多。他们开始意识到，别人会说“是”和“不”的界限，并不完全像他们脑子里画的那样，而且往往更往外。

If they say yes to you, you got a yes, great. And if they say no, you're one step closer to being done with the exercise. It takes people a lot longer than they expect, because they get a lot more yeses. And one of the things they start to realize is that the boundary between where people will say yes and no is not exactly where they had drawn it in their head. And in many cases, it's further out.

我喜欢这个练习，因为它让人们意识到，原来可以在生活里争取更多东西，比过去以为的多得多。

I like it that it helps people realize that they can be advocating for more things in their life than they had previously.

好的。那你听到女性在工作里收集到的“不”都有哪些？能举些例子吗？

Okay. So what are some of the work nos that you've heard women collect? What are some examples of

她们提的要求吗？对，比如给项目争取额外资源。有时她们会在公司里谈自己的晋升、薪资之类。不过你问得挺有意思，我记住的往往是那些得到“是”的例子。

Of things they're asking for? Yeah. Extra resources for projects. Sometimes people, if they're doing them at work, will negotiate for their own, you know, promotion or pay or things like that. But it's it is actually interesting you asked me the question that way, because the ones I always remember are the ones where people get the yeses.

对，我想改变我现在的职责，多做这类工作、少做那类，结果老板同意了。我想增加曝光度，多去做演讲，因为我想被看见。哦，我还想让公司出钱给我参加与职业发展相关的额外培训。

Yeah. That I wanted to change the role that I was that I, you know, had. I wanted to do more of this work and less of this work, and people said yes. I wanted more visibility in presenting because I wanted to actually be in front of the eyes. Oh, I wanted them to pay for extra resources that were going to be related to my professional development.

送我去那个项目，我想上那门课，诸如此类。这些我印象最深。当然，也有人提这些要求时被拒绝，但我总觉得，原来别人比你想象中更愿意帮你。于是大家信心大增：哦，原来比我想的难，但人们其实想帮我。

Send me to this program where I wanted to do this class of things like that. So those are the ones that always stick out for me. And yes, there are people who ask for those things in their context, and they get a no too. But I'm always like, this was harder than you thought for people to And turn you then people feel much more confident of, oh, it was harder than I thought. You know, people wanna help me.

对，而且我提的要求，似乎也没我以为的那么不合理。

Yeah. And the things I'm asking for are not as as unreasonable as perhaps I thought they were.

一想到在工作场合开口，我立刻想到两件事。第一，请别人替我干点活——侧向委派，这叫什么？同级委派。

Well, two things came to mind right away when I thought about asking in a work context. One was asking someone to do something instead of me. Side delegating. What do you call that? Peer delegating.

第二个问题是问，我们能不能推迟？能不能把这次会议从这周改到下周？我能不能晚点交这个东西？我能不能晚一周？有趣的是，我觉得研究显示，在这两种情况下，人们说“好”的可能性比我们预期的要高，就像你在这个练习中发现的那样。

And the second is asking, can we delay? Can we have this meeting next week instead of this week? Can I hand this thing into you? Can I be a week late? And it's funny because the research, I think, shows on both those situations, people are more likely to say yes than we expect as you found out from this exercise.

但实际上，因为我还没有勇气去尝试，我想问问我们的听众，如果有人听着觉得“哦，我也应该这么做，但我害怕”，我想说，我们能不能一起做，然后汇报结果？也许我们会做一期后续节目。也许我们会想办法沟通。但给我们发邮件吧。

But I actually because I haven't had the courage to try this, I actually wanna ask our listeners who for anyone who's listening going, oh, I should do that too, but I'm afraid to. I'm gonna say, can we do this together and report back? And maybe we'll do a follow-up on the episode. Maybe we'll we'll figure out how to how to communicate. But email us.

如果你打算尝试，请告诉我们。你可以说你准备做。但我对这个问题是：被拒绝会影响你的地位吗？

Let us know if you intend to try it. You can tell us you're gonna do it. But here's my question about this. Does getting the no impact your status?

不会。我觉得不一定。如果你的请求非常过分，你又非常咄咄逼人，别人得第八十三次说“不行”，那可能确实影响了你的地位，因为你表现出来的样子并不怎么顾及他人或关心别人。

No. I think it doesn't necessarily. Now if your ask is very egregious and you are very pushy about it and someone has to say for the eighty third time, the answer is no, then it probably has affected your status because what you're showing up is is not very other oriented or very caring.

但

But

我觉得你说的不是这种情况。我觉得你更说的是：“嘿，这样对你方便吗？如果能延期，对我真的很有帮助。建议我们两周后而不是今天做。”他们说：“不行，我们得今天完成。”

I don't think that's what you're talking about. I think you're saying more of the, hey, would it work for you? It would really help me to have an extension of this. Going to suggest we do this two weeks from today rather than today. And they say, nope, we need to do it.

你就此打住，说：“好的，明白了。我们会完成，或者想别的办法。”这种情况，不，我不担心会影响你的地位。

And you stop it there. And you say, Okay, heard. We'll get it, or we'll figure out another solution. That kind of situation, no. I'm not worried about that impacting your status.

你为自己争取了。而且，当你说“我理解你的顾虑”，或者如果这件事对你真的很重要，你真的想争取到一个“好”，那我们可以再谈谈，也许你能得到你想要的，我也能得到我想要的。这就是谈判的全部，可以做到。所以我不觉得这是需要担心的事。事实上，人们还会发现，哦，原来我一直有个故事，觉得被拒绝后我会失去地位。

You've advocated for yourself. But also, when you say, I hear your concerns, or could we talk it through even more if it is something that's really important to you and you really do want to push to a yes, maybe there's a way you can get what you want and I can get what you want. And that's the whole negotiation of being able to do it. So I wouldn't have that as a fear. And in fact, one of the things that people also get from this is, oh, it wasn't that I have this story about how bad it's going to be that I will lose status when I get a no.

而且再也没人会喜欢我。然后你意识到，哦，这些事其实都没发生。即使被拒绝，也只是“不行，行不通”，然后我们就继续了。

And no one will like me again. And you realize, oh, none of those things actually happened either. Even in the ones where I got a no, it was, no, it doesn't work. Fine. And then we moved on from it.

是啊。是啊。因为我觉得是阿什利·谢尔比·罗塞特说过“跟自己谈判”这件事。嗯。就是你正准备提个要求，结果你先替对方想好了所有他们会说“不”的理由。

Yeah. Yeah. Because there's this I think it's Ashley Shelby Rosette who talks about negotiating against yourself. Mhmm. So like, you are gonna about to ask something, but then you come up with all the reasons why the person's gonna say no.

对我来说，这种恐惧联系到你的工作就是，如果他们说不，你不配加薪，或者说，你为什么提这个？这完全不合常规，或者你以为你是谁？那我就会失去地位。所以有时候担心的并不是被拒绝本身，而是对我地位的影响。

And to me, the fear in that to connect back to your work is that I'm losing status if they're saying no, you don't deserve a raise or no. Why are you asking? This is totally off cycle or or who do you think you are? And so there is a concern. Sometimes it's less about getting the no, and it's more about the impact on my status that I'm concerned about.

好，我们先停一下，因为我觉得这真的很重要，我想分享几点想法。我们都认识安妮·杜克。

Yeah. So let's pause on this for a second because I think this is really important, and I wanna offer a couple thoughts. Annie Duke, we both know.

对，她原来是职业扑克选手，后来成了行为心理学家，特别厉害。

Yeah. She is a professional poker player turned behavioral psychologist. Who is amazing. Yeah.

而且非常聪明。我和她一对一聊天时，她说，人们以为如果你说“这对我更好”，别人就会不高兴。其实不是。人们想知道什么对你更好，因为他们如果能做到，也会在意在你眼中的地位。

And brilliant. And when I was talking with her one on one, she said, people assume that if you say, this is better for me, that other people will be unhappy. And that's not true. People want to know what's better for you. Because if they can do it, they are concerned about their status in your eyes as well.

地位是我们都在乎的东西。所以你对我说，我更喜欢A而不是B，人们通常不会想让你选B，因为那对你更糟。所以当我们说出自己真正需要什么时，其实很有帮助，因为如果我们被拒绝，大多数时候对方会感到内疚，而不是觉得被冒犯，他们会因为不能答应而难过。

Status is something we all care about. So you say to me, I prefer A to B, people generally don't want to make you take B because it's worse for you. So this idea of when we say what we actually need, it can be really helpful because if we don't get a no, normally more than anything, people feel guilty. They're not they don't feel imposed. They feel bad they couldn't say yes.

因此，你在未来的谈判中会获得信用，因为他们不想连续两次说不。但更重要的是，他们会想，哦，如果这对你更好，又能让我开心，而且我能做到，我其实挺乐意帮忙的。另外一点是聚光灯效应。

And therefore, you get credit for a future negotiation because they don't want to say no twice. But more than anything, they think, oh, if this is better for you, and it makes me happy, and I could do it. I actually enjoy being able to do that. Yeah. The other thing I'll say about this is the spotlight effect.

我们以为别人对我们的关注比实际多得多。人们其实更操心自己的生活，这在某些方面挺麻烦，但从另一个角度看也是好消息。你提要求时只要做到不让人记住就行，因为你一离开，对方就回到困扰他们自己的问题上，不会坐在那里想你。

We think people are paying a lot more attention to us than they are. And the fact that people are worried about their own lives is really problematic in some ways and beautiful news in other ways. Yeah. All you need to do when you make an ask is not be memorable because the second you leave, that person is back to whatever problem it is that is consuming their own life. They're not sitting around thinking about you.

所以如果你能以一种他们到晚饭时就忘了的方式提出，那就完美了。拒绝消失了，你也弄清楚了这件事是否可行。

And so if you can do it in a way that they'll most likely forget by dinnertime, perfect. The no is gone, and you were able to figure out whether it was possible.

嗯，我们得收尾了，但结束前我一直在想一件事。你不停说，如果这不是你的风格，如果你觉得别扭，那就别做。但你也提到一个很有趣的点：观察别人，当你觉得“哇，我对他们很有好感”或“我真的很尊重他们”或“我觉得他们很有能力”时，注意他们在做什么，然后把这招收起来以后用。我觉得这是个很重要的策略，我会带走的就是去观察别人。

Yeah. You know, we've gotta wrap up, but there's one thing I've been thinking about before we end here. You keep saying, know, I'm agnostic if this isn't your style, if this feels icky. But you also said something really interesting about observing people when, oh, I feel really warm toward them or, oh, I really respect them right now or, wow, I think they're really capable. Noticing what they're doing and sort of bottling that up to use later, that I think is a really important tactic that I'm taking away here, which is to observe in others.

虽然我现在做同样的事可能觉得不自然，但我可以试试看感觉如何。因为现在我50岁做的很多事，20岁的艾米会说她永远不会做，对吧？永远不会。那会觉得不自然，但这种感觉是可以随着时间改变的。

And while it may not feel authentic to me right now to do that same thing, to see if I could just try it out and see how it feels. Because there's so many things I do now as 50 year old Amy that 20 year old Amy would have said she would never have done. Right? Ever. That's not it would never felt authentic, but that can change over time.

我认为，当我们思考如何获得地位，从而获得权力时，我们确实必须做一些让自己稍微不舒服的事情，以增强那种温暖感或增强那种坚定感，无论我们想做哪一个。

And I think as we think about gaining status and then therefore power, that we do have to do some things that are slightly uncomfortable to us in order to dial up that warmth or dial up the assertiveness, whichever one we're trying to do.

完全同意。我的意思是，当我思考如何管理这些事情时，我采取的是实验科学家的视角，那就是你必须改变某些东西。你必须尝试一些新的东西。因为如果我对你说，艾米，你已经发展到头了，你已经好到顶了，你只是把余生过完，别做任何改变。实际上没人想要那样。

100%. I mean, I take, like, the perspective of an experimental scientist when I think about managing these things, which is you have to vary something. You have to try something new. Because if I said to you, Amy, you're as you're as developed and you're as great as you're ever going to be, you're just riding out the last years of your life, don't change a thing. No one actually wants that.

你想要成长、学习、改变、发展。这必然涉及一点试错。那招不太行，现在我知道了，等等。所以我总是告诉人们，如果它没让你感到一点点不舒服，那你就是在浪费时间。那是你已经会做的事。

You want to grow, and learn, and change, and develop. And that has to involve a little bit of trial and error. That didn't work so well, and now I know better, etcetera. So I always tell people, if it doesn't feel just a little bit uncomfortable, then you're wasting your time. It's already something you know how to do.

我不在乎是地位还是别的什么。你得稍微逼自己一下。但这要在“一点点”和“强迫自己做感觉完全虚假的事，只因为别人这么做了”之间做判断。后者没用。然后我想，如果试了好几次都不奏效，那它就不适合你，你就换别的方法。

And I don't care if whether it's status or anything else. You got to push yourself a little bit. But it's a judgment call between a little and forcing myself to do something that feels completely fake just because another person did it. That's not useful. And then I think if it doesn't work after a couple times, then it's not for you, and you move on to something else.

是的。我非常喜欢。这次谈话让我收获很多，但其中之一是一个看似简单的问题，我却认为对我们实现目标至关重要，那就是问自己：在这一刻，我能做些什么来既坚定又温暖地出现？我非常感激你把这个问题带到世界上，因为我觉得它改变了我做事的方式，而且我认为它将改变很多女性做事的方式。所以谢谢你。

Yeah. That's I love it. And I'm taking away a lot from this conversation, but one of the things is what seems like a really simple question, but I think is so fundamental to us achieving what we wanna achieve is to ask yourself, what can I do to show up as both assertive and warm in this moment? And I so appreciate you putting that out there in the world because I think it's changed the way I'm doing things, and I think it's gonna change the way a lot of women do. So thank you.

嗯，谢谢你。尤其是出自你口，我认为这是一句可爱的赞美，我会欣然接受，并且不对你的评价发表我的意见，因为谢谢。这让我感觉很好。所以我感激不尽。

Well, thank you. And I consider, especially coming from you, that to be a lovely compliment, which I will graciously accept and not give you my opinion about your opinion because thank you. That made me feel very good. So I appreciate it.

也谢谢你来到节目。这是一次非常有趣的对话。

Well, and thank you for coming on the show. This has been a really fun conversation.

当然。谢谢。

Absolutely. Thank you.

艾莉森的书是《可爱的狠角色：女性如何获得她们应得的成功》。我希望你能和我一起做艾莉森的“鼻子练习”。再说一遍规则：你想向工作中10个不同的人提出任何对你有价值的要求。

Allison's book is likable badass, how women get the success they deserve. I hope you'll join me in doing Allison's nose exercise. Exercise. Again, here are the rules. You wanna ask 10 different people at work for anything that has value to you.

你把每一次请求和得到的回应（是或否）都记下来。同时记下每个人的反应以及你对他们反应的感受。并记录你用了多少个请求才集满10个“不”。我想听听结果。所以请给我们的制作人阿曼达发邮件，地址是women@workathbr.org。

You jot down each ask and whether you got a yes or no. Also jot down how each person responded and how you felt about their response. And keep track of how many requests it took for you to reach 10 no's. I wanna hear about how it goes. So email our producer, Amanda, at women@workathbr.org.

告诉她你想参与这个练习，她会回复你一份说明提醒。完成后，把你的结果告诉她，并告知你是否愿意参加后续节目，届时你和其他几位听众将向我、艾莉森以及彼此，当然还有所有听众，分享你们完成练习后的收获与自我发现。对了，如果你对我提到的斯泰西·艾布拉姆斯那期感兴趣，请在播客列表里翻到2022年2月21日，就能听到我们与斯泰西及其长期商业伙伴劳拉·霍奇森的对话。她们分享了共同创办并经营三家公司的宝贵经验。Women Network的编辑与制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍赫、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·埃克哈特、埃里卡·特拉克勒、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。

Tell her you want in on the exercise, and she'll reply with a reminder of the instructions. Once you finish, get back in touch with your results and let her know if you'd like to volunteer for a follow-up episode where you and a few other listeners will tell me and Allison and one another, and of course, this audience, what you accomplished and learned about yourself in doing the exercise. Oh, and for those of you who are curious about that Stacey Abrams episode I mentioned, find it by scrolling through the podcast feed to 02/21/2022, and you'll hear our conversation with Stacy and her longtime business partner, Laura Hodgson. They share hard won lessons from starting and running three companies together. Women Network's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates.

罗宾·摩尔创作了本节目的主题音乐。最后一件事：我刚接手撰写每月一期的《职场女性》通讯，从已经做了四年的阿曼达手中接过这项任务。如果你还没订阅，请尽快注册。

Robin Moore composed this theme music. One last thing. I just started writing our monthly women at work newsletter. I took over the reins from Amanda who had been doing it for four years. If you don't already receive that newsletter, please sign up.

你可以访问 hbr.org/newsletters，在那里找到《职场女性》通讯，勾选订阅框，就能每月收到我们的邮件了。好了，我是艾米·加洛。

You can go to hbr.org/newsletters. Look for the women at work newsletter there. Click that checkbox, and you will get our monthly emails in your inbox. Okay. I'm Amy Gallo.

随时欢迎来信，邮箱是 women@workathbr.org。

Get in touch anytime by emailing women@workathbr.org.

毕马威通过创造价值彰显不同，例如开发战略洞察助力并购成功，或将人工智能解决方案嵌入企业以维持竞争优势。毕马威，成就不同。了解更多请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.