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欢迎回到《你应该了解的女性设计师》，这档播客讲述过去和现在女性设计师们鼓舞人心又令人心碎的故事。
Welcome back to Women Designers You Should Know, the podcast where we tell the inspiring yet heartbreaking stories of what it was and is like to be a woman designer.
我是主持人安珀·艾斯，今天我们将深入探讨夏洛特·佩里安的非凡人生与作品，这位设计师对现代设计的影响终于得到了应有的认可。
I'm your host, Amber Ase, and today we're diving into remarkable life and work of Charlotte Perriand, a designer whose impact on modern design is finally getting the recognition it deserves.
从她开创性的家具设计到大胆的政治立场，甚至与勒·柯布西耶的分道扬镳，夏洛特的故事展现了在男性主导行业中坚持与创新的传奇。
From her groundbreaking furniture designs to her bold stance on politics and even her break with Le Corbusier, Charlotte's story is one of perseverance and creativity in a male dominated industry.
我们将探索她职业生涯的起伏，她对现代主义的影响，以及她如何不懈努力将功能性与以人为本的空间相融合。
We'll explore the highs and lows of her career, the influence she had on modernism, and how she worked tirelessly to blend functionality with human centered spaces.
与我共同参与讨论的是非凡的艾迪·古德里奇，这位多领域设计师在商业室内设计、场景设计和家具创作方面的工作备受苹果、谷歌和耐克等品牌青睐。
Joining me is the incredible Aidey Goodrich, a multidisciplinary designer whose work in commercial interiors, set design, and furniture creation has been sought after by brands like Apple, Google, and Nike.
但在深入探讨夏洛特的故事和八十年代见解之前，我需要你们的帮助。
But before we dive into Charlotte's story and eighties insights, I need your help.
如果您听过本集节目并喜欢我们的内容，您的支持将带来巨大改变。
If you've listened to more than one episode of this podcast and you've enjoyed what you've heard so far, you can make a real difference.
本播客的使命是聚焦像夏洛特·佩里安这样的杰出女性，让她们的故事成为设计史宏大叙事的一部分。
The mission of this podcast is to highlight these extraordinary women like Charlotte Perriand and to make their stories become part of the larger conversation around design history.
为了让这档播客触达更多听众，我需要您的支持。
For this podcast to reach more people, I need your support.
在您的播客平台留下文字评论只需一分钟，但能帮助我们吸引新听众。
Leaving a written review on your podcast platform takes just a minute, but helps us reach new listeners.
如果您认同我们的理念，请考虑为我们撰写评论。
If you believe in what we're doing, please consider writing a review.
让我们携手努力，使夏洛特·佩里安和我们介绍的所有女性设计师都家喻户晓。
Together, we can help make Charlotte Periand and all the women we feature household names.
说到这里，让我们正式开启艾迪·古德里奇和夏洛特·佩里安的故事之旅。
And with that said, let's dive into the story of both Adie Goodrich and Charlotte Periand.
欢迎艾迪来到我们的播客。
Welcome, Adie, to the podcast.
谢谢邀请。
Thanks for having me.
能畅谈您如此精彩的职业生涯，我实在激动不已。
I'm so excited to talk all about your career, which is so impressive.
当然，还有夏洛特。
And then, of course, Charlotte.
但让我们先从你开始说起。
But let's first start with you.
我一向喜欢追溯一个人的成长经历和童年时光。
And I always like to go way back to your upbringing and your childhood.
你在芝加哥长大，你的父亲是一位建筑修复师兼古董商，他对工艺和材料的热爱深深影响了你。
So you grew up in Chicago where your father, an architectural restorer and antiques dealer, deeply influenced your love for craftsmanship and materials.
你早早离开高中，跟随他学习木工和建筑的实际操作经验。
And you left high school early to work with him gaining hands on experience in woodworking and construction.
能多分享一些你的童年经历吗？这些经历如何影响你决定投身设计行业？
Can you share more about your childhood and how it influenced your decision to pursue a career in design?
是的。
Yeah.
还有，真厉害，你居然知道所有这些细节。
Also, bravo on knowing all of those details.
你的调研工作做得很到位，这相当令人印象深刻。
You've done your research, which is quite impressive.
我出生在芝加哥，但在一个非常小的农场小镇长大，有个充满好奇心的父亲。
So I was born in Chicago, but grew up in a very small farm town with a very curious dad.
我们住在一个农场里。
We lived on a farm.
他是一名半挂卡车修理工，但同时经营着一家古董店。
He was a semi truck mechanic, but he also had an antique store.
基本上我们修复了整个居住的小镇。
And we basically restored, like, the whole small town that we lived in.
从很小的时候就开始接触建筑行业。
And from a super early age, construction.
就像是他身边的小助手。
Like, I was his little sidekick.
我们会看鲍勃·维拉的节目。
You would watch Bob Villa.
那是我的最爱。
That was my favorite.
就像，比起周六早上的卡通片，我更爱看鲍勃·维拉的节目。
Like, instead of Saturday morning cartoons, that was my dude, Bob Villa.
是啊。
Yeah.
我总是跟着他在建筑工地上干活，或者和他一起修理半挂卡车，完全沉迷于修理、制作物品和动手工作的艺术。
And I was just always on construction sites with him or working on semi trucks with him and just really obsessed with the art of fixing things and making things and working with my hands.
确实，无论是设计家具还是蓝领阶层的体力劳动，都让人充满自豪感。
And, yeah, there's really a huge pride in that both from design and furniture, but also just, like, the working class version of working with your hands.
就像你说的，我早早辍学，在父亲的古董店和建筑修复公司全职做木工。
And like you said, I quit high school early to become a full time woodworker in my dad's antique store and architectural preservation business.
我珍藏的一个记忆是：有次古董店里来了个男人，和我父亲聊天，他是个弗兰克·赖特迷——中西部很多人都这样，因为赖特就来自中西部，在芝加哥周边有很多作品。
The memory that I hold very dear is at the antique store, this man one day walked in and started a conversation with me and my dad, and he was this Frank Wright enthusiast as, like, many people are in the Midwest because Frank Lloyd Wright was from the Midwest and has a lot of work in the Chicagoland area.
他邀请我们去印第安纳州参观一栋原主人仍居住的赖特住宅。
He came in, and he invited us to a home in Indiana where the original owner still lived for a tour.
当然，我知道弗兰克·劳埃德·赖特，但了解不多。
And, of course, I knew Frank Lloyd Wright, but I didn't know much.
那时我大概16岁左右。
I was probably, like, 16 years old.
我们去了那栋房子，主人带我们参观，展示了所有蓝图，讲述了故事，并开始向我介绍房屋的每个细节以及赖特设计的物件——那些椅子、软垫和木质镶板墙。
And we went to this house, and the owner walked us through the house, showed us all the blueprints, gave us the story, and started showing me all the details of the house and the objects that Frank Lloyd Wright made, the chairs, the upholstery, the wood paneled walls.
我记得他甚至为女主人设计过一套服装，或者给我们讲过另一栋房子里为女主人定制服装的故事。
I think he even made an outfit for the wife or told us a story about another house where the clothing was made for the wife.
我开始理解设计的真谛——它不仅仅是与拥有者分离的物件。
And I kind of understood what design could be that it wasn't just an object that is separate from a person that owns it.
设计可以与你共生，充分启迪你，一个设计师能在三月里影响他人的生活。
It can live with you and inform you fully that a designer can inform someone's life in March.
我不想说我渴望成为弗兰克·劳埃德·赖特，但我始终希望能全面触及人们的生活，无论是通过他们使用的物件还是空间。
I don't wanna say I aspire to be Frank Lloyd Wright, but I think I continuously aspire to have a touch on people's lives entirely, be it an object or a space that they use.
比如我设计过一家酒铺，我觉得特别之处在于人们生命中这个选购美酒的重要时刻，而我可以通过设计为这个时刻增添意义。
Like, I designed a wine store, and I I think it's so special that people have this really special moment in their life going to buy a wine and that I can inform that moment with design.
所以我认为那是一个非常重要的时刻。
So I think that was a really important moment.
而且，我父亲允许我高中辍学去全职做木工，然后再上大学，我觉得这很酷，但也许也有点不负责任，不过我想我最终结果还不错。
And, also, my dad allowing me to quit high school to do woodworking full time before going to college was pretty, I think, cool, but also maybe irresponsible, but I think I turned out okay.
所以，是的，那就是
So, yeah, that's the
早期的 是的。
early Yeah.
我人生的早期阶段。
Early part of my life.
有趣的是，我觉得对于创意工作者来说，有时高中显得非常无聊或不必要，感觉像是学了很多可能永远用不上的东西。
And it's funny because I think for creatives, sometimes high school feels so boring or unnecessary or feels like learning a lot of things that you might never use.
你高中时有这种感觉吗？
Did you feel that way when you were in high school?
是否觉得它阻碍了你真正想做的事？
Did it feel like it was getting in the way of what you really wanted?
完全没有。
Not at all.
我一直很喜欢学校，只是觉得自己已经学够了。
Like, I've always loved school, but I just felt like I was done.
实际上我已经完成了毕业所需的所有课程，我只是客观地看待这件事。
Like, I had actually done all of the the classes that I needed to do before graduation, and I kind of looked at it just factually.
我当时就想，我已经完成高中学业了。
I was like, I'm done with high school.
真的，我已经完成所有要求了。
Like, I've actually completed everything.
我准备好了。
I'm good.
我成绩很好。
I have good grades.
我能进入心仪的学校。
I'm going to get into the school I want.
就像我说的，我很好。
Like, I'm good.
梅达当时说，是啊。
Medha was like, yeah.
你没问题。
You're good.
所以后来我就能提前离开了。
And so then I was able to leave early.
就像我总是急着做下一件事，因为我总在思考死亡以及生命的短暂。
Just like I'm always in a rush to get to the next thing because I'm constantly thinking about death and how short our lives are.
所以我总想着，赶紧进入下一阶段吧，现在有个机会可以全职做木工，我觉得这听起来挺酷的。
And so I'm always like, let's move on to the next thing, and there's there's this opportunity to do woodworking full time, and and that sounded pretty cool to me, I think.
嗯。
Yeah.
这真有意思。
That's so interesting.
我太喜欢了。
I love that.
你就像在完成待办清单一样，一件接一件地处理事情。
You're like, check on to the next thing, like a little checklist.
所以你最终进入了芝加哥艺术学院，学习了绘画、建筑保护和艺术史等多门学科。
And so you ended up attending the Art Institute of Chicago, and you studied a range of disciplines like painting, architectural preservation and art history.
不仅如此，你还在巴黎索邦大学深造，进一步加深了对艺术与设计的理解。
Not only that, but you also spent time at La Sorbonne in Paris, further deepening your understanding of art and design.
在你求学期间，还记得学过关于女性在艺术与设计领域的课程吗？
And during your education, do you remember learning about women in art and design?
很难说没有学过。
It is hard to say, like, no.
我没有专门学习女性相关内容，因为它本就是讨论的一部分。
I did not learn about women because it is just part of the conversation.
但我感觉艺术史一直由男性主导。
But I feel like art history has been owned by males.
直到最近，才开始出现像《女性创造》这样的书籍。
And until recently, the books have been coming out like woman made.
我要把它拿起来展示一下，因为这是我最喜欢的。
I'm gonna just grab it so I can hold it up because it's my favorite.
但是，嗯，是的。
But, like Yeah.
因为这本书太棒了。
Because this book is so great.
还有《第九街女性》，我形容它就像我们翻越了抽象表现主义的山峰，而这本书向我们展示了山另一侧的抽象表现主义历史，并将男性与女性的故事连接起来。
There's also Ninth Street Women, which I describe, like, if we've traveled the mountain of abstract expressionism, that book shows us the history of abstract expressionism on the other side of the mountain, and it connects the male and female story.
所以我想说，直到大学毕业后我才真正开始了解女性在设计史上的地位。
So I will say, like, only post college did I really start learning about the history of women in design.
有本叫《包豪斯女性》的书，专门讲述包豪斯学院的女性成员。
There's a book called Bauhaus Women, which really talks about the women of Bauhaus.
但我不太确定。
But I don't know.
我觉得现在在校的这一代人可能正在学习女性历史，但我当年确实需要更多靠自己探索。
I feel like the generation now that are in school are probably learning about women, but I did have to find it on my own a bit more.
是啊。
Yeah.
我也有同感。
I feel that way too.
更多是大学毕业后通过那些大学时没用过的书籍才了解到的，这些书比我们大学用的历史教材更能突显女性贡献。
It was more of a post college learning and books that we didn't really use in college that are highlighting women better than some of the history books we did use in college.
我特别好奇。
And I'm so curious.
我应该找些年轻人聊聊，看看他们现在是否更多学习女性历史，是否感觉现在更平等了——我很想知道这些年变化有多大。
I should talk to someone who's younger and see, like, are you learning about women more and who, and does it feel more equal now to you kind of a thing because I would be curious how much it's changed over time.
没错。
Yeah.
就像2019年夏洛特·佩里安展览能在路易威登基金会举办，这意味着会有展览画册出版，进入博物馆商店和人们的书架，然后人们才开始真正讨论她。
I mean, there's like, the fact that this Charlotte Perrienne exhibition in 2019 was at the Louis Vuitton Foundation, that means it comes with an exhibition catalog, a book, and then it ends up in the museum shops and on people's bookshelves, and then people really start to talk about her.
因此我认为我们正看到更多策展努力在讲述这方面的故事。
So I think we're seeing a lot more curatorial effort towards telling that side of the story.
随之而来的是，这些内容确实会更多地渗透到时代思潮中。
And with that, it does trickle down into the zeitgeist a bit more.
看到设计领域女性力量的复兴真是令人振奋。
It's really exciting to see this resurgence of women in design.
我当然很想聊聊你的职业生涯，以及你是如何进入现在所做的一切的。
And I really wanna talk about, of course, your career and how you got into everything that you're doing now.
你第一份引人注目的工作——这确实令人印象深刻——是在Anthropologie为Barneys New York设计橱窗。
Your first notable job, which is really impressive, was dressing windows for Barneys New York in Anthropologie.
你曾提到零售陈列的工作点燃了你对布景设计的热情，将艺术感知与实际建造技能完美结合。
You've mentioned that your work with retail displays ignited your passion for set design, merging your artistic sensibility with practical construction skills.
于是你在2009年搬到洛杉矶后转型做布景设计，为电影、广告和摄影工作，并与Juco等摄影师合作，进而与各大品牌建立了合作关系。
And so you transitioned into set design after moving to LA in 2009, working for film, commercials and photoshoots, and working with photographers like Juco, which led to collaborations with major brands.
这段经历中是什么让你意识到布景设计是你真正的使命？
What was it about this experience that made you realize set design was your true calling?
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我离开艺术学院时就在想，哦，不。
So I left art school being like, oh, no.
我为什么要去上艺术学院？
Why did I go to art school?
就像你说的，我学过绘画、素描、纤维艺术和建筑保护，各种课程都尝试过。
I studied like you said, I studied painting and drawing and fibers and architectural preservation and jumped around.
芝加哥艺术学院几年后差点失去学校认证资格，因为我们的课程设置...我们甚至没有评分制度。
The School of the Art Institute of Chicago only a couple years later almost got discredited as a school because their curriculum like, we we didn't have grades.
当时整个体系有点混乱。
It was kind of all over the place.
那确实是所了不起的学校。
It's an incredible school.
但在那时，就是鼓励你深入探索所有领域。
But at the time, it was just like, dig into everything, explore everything.
我就是这么做的。
And that's what I did.
毕业后，我为一位名叫托尼·菲茨帕特里克的杰出艺术家工作，他相当有名气。
And when I graduated, was working for this artist, Tony Fitzpatrick, who is incredible and pretty well known.
我是他的新助手。
I was his new assistant.
我们飞往纽约布展，与策展人会谈。
We were flying to New York, hanging his shows, and meeting with curators.
但我总觉得创作艺术这件事让我感觉不对劲。
And I just felt like it doesn't feel right to me to make art.
那种'我是艺术家，我的作品纯粹是个人理念，最终变成挂在富人客厅墙上的画作'的模式让我很不自在。
It didn't feel right, the model of I'm an artist and what I do as solely my idea turns into a painting on a wall for a rich person's living room.
对我来说，这种模式感觉非常奇怪。
Like, to me, that felt really strange.
同时我也在质疑：我的故事真的那么重要吗？
And I also felt like, why does my story matter that much?
时间快进到我离开学校后，我搬到了洛杉矶，因为奇迹般地找到了一份做橱窗展示的工作。
And so fast forward when I left school and and moved to Los Angeles because I got a job miraculously doing window displays.
我还结识了一位新朋友和一群朋友，我们一起成立了一个名为'Scirocco研究实验室'的电影团体。
I also teamed up with a brand new friend and a group of friends, and we started a film collective called Scirocco Research Labs.
其中一位成员是现在颇有名气的摄影师吉米·马布尔。
One of those people being Jimmy Marble, who's now a well known photographer.
我们开始一起创作，
But we started making Yeah.
拍摄电影。
Films together.
我每天凌晨4点到下午2点做橱窗展示，然后就去我们的阁楼工作室。
And I would do window displays from 4AM to 2PM and then go over to our loft.
我成了布景设计师，因为我是从小做木工长大的，懂得建造，但其实我并不清楚自己在做什么。
I became the set designer because I was the one that grew up doing woodworking and I knew how to build, but I didn't know what I was doing.
最终我开始意识到，这才是我真正应该待的地方。
And I finally started to see that this was actually where I needed to be.
而不是我说，这是我想要创作的艺术。
Instead of me saying, like, this is the art I wanna make.
一切都关于我自己。
It's all about me.
把它挂在墙上。
Let's put it on a wall.
现在变成了团队协作。
It was now a team effort.
对吧？
Right?
回到工人阶级的根源，这感觉更像是我是制造系统的一部分，而非灵魂创造者。
And going back to working class roots, it also felt like I'm part of the system of makers rather than, like, the soul maker.
所以我有个带着剧本的导演，他把剧本给了我。
So I had a director with a script, and he gave it to me.
剧本里没有任何图像。
And there's no images with the script.
我正在想象那个故事可能呈现的样子。
I'm visualizing what that story might look like.
我有一位负责灯光设计的摄影指导，我们会讨论光的色调。
And I had a DP that was lighting it, and we would talk about the color of light.
我会运用纹理和材料来营造这个空间的氛围，这让我完全着迷。
And I would use textures and materials to inform a feeling in this space, and I was so smitten.
从纤维艺术到丝网印刷，再到建筑保护、绘画和素描，这种跳跃式的艺术教育经历突然变得合理——因为现在有了对布景设计的新热爱，你必须成为样样精通的通才，掌握所有材料特性。
And the art education of jumping from fibers to screen printing to architectural preservation, painting, and drawing actually made a lot of sense because now with this newfound love of set design, you had to actually be like a jack of all trades and know all materials.
这终于让我理解了自己在建筑领域的经验，以及我对多种媒介的探索。
So it finally made sense for me and my experience in building and, I guess, multiplicities of mediums.
我终于明白布景设计就是我的归宿。
It finally made sense for me to have a place in set design.
我很喜欢你描述的这种全方位沉浸式体验。
I love that that three sixty experience that you're talking about.
所以你认为自己是一名空间设计师？
And so you consider yourself a spatial designer.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实让我联想到身处一个空间时，你会同时考虑那个空间里的每个细节，无论是布景设计、大型装置、商业室内设计，当然还包括家具设计。
That definitely does make me think about being in a space and you're considering every detail in that space as well, whether that's set design or large scale installations or commercial interiors, and of course, furniture design included in all of that.
于是你和你的合伙人——电影制作人肖恩·佩克诺德共同创立了Sing Sing工作室，在那里你们打造连接叙事与设计的空间环境。
And so you co founded Sing Sing Studio with your partner, filmmaker, Sean Pecknold, where you create environments that bridge storytelling and design.
你们的客户包括谷歌、苹果、Target、耐克和Headspace等知名企业。
Some of your clients include Google, Apple, Target, Nike, and Headspace.
你们还在零售设计领域崭露头角——我就是通过Atwater Village那些极具摄影美感的空间（如Wine and Eggs和Lisa Says Gah店铺）初次了解到你们的作品。
You've also made your mark in retail design, which is how I first found out about you with notable highly photogenic spaces in Atwater Village, like wine and eggs and Lisa Says Gah.
如果这些还不够，你们最近还推出了自己的家具系列Sing Thing。
And if that's not enough, you recently launched your own furniture line called Sing Thing.
我很想详细了解你在这些方面的创作过程。
I'd love to hear more about your process with all of that.
你如何在不同媒介中贯穿叙事理念，从场景设计到家具创作？
How do you approach storytelling in such diverse mediums from set design to furniture creation?
我想这与我十五年阅读剧本并可视化呈现文字内容的经历有关，我始终无法脱离叙事驱动的空间设计。
I think the fact that I spent fifteen years reading scripts and reacting visually to the written word, I really can't get away from narratively driven spaces.
再加上就读于一所高度概念化的艺术学院，结合对剧本的视觉化呈现，核心永远是关于故事本身。
Also, going to a really conceptual art school, coupled with reacting to a script, it's always about the story.
所以我认为媒介从来不是关键。
So it's never about the medium, I think.
更有趣的是对客户或合作方需求的回应，通过注入意图和叙事来做出设计决策。
What's more interesting is reacting to a prompt from a client or collaborator and putting intention and narrative behind it to make decisions.
你刚才提到了Wine and Eggs餐厅。
So you mentioned the wine and eggs.
比如，这个项目背后就有一个完整的故事体系。
Like, there's a whole story around it.
对吧？
Right?
选择材料、颜色以及设计空间或物品的过程，始终基于我先构思的故事。
The process of choosing materials and colors and designing a space or an object always is informed by the story that I create first.
所以当我们选择材料或决定空间形态时，都会回归到那个故事——本质上就是源自片场工作的经验，以及在这种需要即时响应故事的协作环境中工作的经历。
So when we're choosing materials or making choices about forms in the space, it goes back to that story, which is truly just the experience of working on set and working in a collaborative environment that you're reacting to a story.
你是否将'红酒与鸡蛋'想象成电影中的场景？那这部电影讲述的是什么故事？
Do you picture Wine and Eggs as kind of a set within a film, and what is the story of that film?
百分之百是的。
A 100%.
而且在我们工作室Sing Sing时，我们也从事摄影工作。
And I also at our studio Sing Sing, we were also doing photography.
比如执行大型摄影企划，我们当时就做了很多Target百货的广告拍摄。
So doing big photo campaigns, like, for we would do a lot of target photo campaigns.
所以我同样在构建画面框架。
And so I'm also framing up.
我认为在电影和摄影中，你也是在构建画面并创造构图，对吧，这不是360度的全景。
I think also in in film and photography, you're framing up and creating a composition, right, that isn't three sixty.
你不会
You don't
绕着它走，但我们也在创造这些构图。
walk around it, but we're also making those compositions.
而在绘画中，你同样在创造构图。
And in painting, you're also creating compositions.
所以，是的，始终在考虑电影画面，始终在思考当你走进来时这会是什么样子。
So, yes, always thinking about the film still, always thinking about what this would look like as you walk in.
如果给它拍张照片，它会是什么平面效果，作为电影中的一帧或一张照片又会是什么样子？
If a picture was taken of it, what would it be flat, and what would it look like as an actual film still in in a film or a photograph?
这太令人印象深刻了。
That's so impressive.
这确实是一个非常独特的设计视角，包括空间设计，因为有时设计空间时，并不像你这样拥有摄影经验。
It's such a a really unique perspective on design and designing spaces too because sometimes designing spaces, you don't really have that photography experience like you do.
所以现在感觉每个瞬间和每个细节都被深思熟虑过，要考虑不同人进入时的不同视角，他们会做什么之类的事情。是的，这真是个充满乐趣的空间。
And so now it feels like every moment and every detail is thought through and different perspectives of different people coming in and what would they be doing and things like that And yeah, it's such a fun space to go into.
比如，我总是喜欢走进去，每次都能发现新东西。
Like, I always love walking in there and just noticing new things every time.
这真的非常有趣。
And it's so fun.
我推荐所有住在洛杉矶的人一定要去阿特沃特村看看她创造的这些空间。
And I recommend anyone who lives in LA to definitely go to Atwater Village and see these spaces that she's created.
但我很好奇，你是如何在一个竞争激烈且快节奏的领域中立足并应对挑战的？
But I'm curious to know how did you navigate the challenges of establishing yourself in a field that's often competitive and fast paced?
我记得当
I remember when
我开始涉足场景设计时，已经辞去了做了大约一年半的橱窗布置工作——这在没有多少积蓄、没有家人支持的新城市生活是相当冒险的。当时想着'干脆辞职算了'，短暂当过家政清洁工，后来开始做美术指导和场景设计，那时真的身无分文。
I started getting into set design, I had quit my job doing window dressing after about, like, a year and a half, which is really dangerous living in a new city without much money, family support, you know, just I'm gonna quit my job, became a house cleaner for a moment and started doing production design, set design and production design, and had no money.
但我觉得我做过的决定里最正确的一个，就是坚持要做完整的360度全方位设计。
But I I think what I did was the the best decision I ever made was I committed to doing full three sixty design.
意思是，如果给我的工作是道具造型，我就没兴趣。
Meaning, if I was given a job that was prop styling, I wasn't interested.
如果给我的商业广告工作是，我们要走进这栋房子，只需要做些场景布置，或许加点新颜色，我就有兴趣。
If I was given a job on a commercial that was about, we're gonna walk into this house and we just need to set dress it, maybe add some new colors, interested.
我真的下定决心只接受那些从地板到天花板的整体设计工作。
And I really made it a point to only accept jobs that were floor to ceiling design jobs.
无论我多穷，我都会想办法解决。
No matter how broke I was, I would work it out.
你知道吗？
You know?
这并不是有意要以此谋生，但我认为坚定信念并坚持自己想做的事，只会创造出更多你愿意做的工作。
And this wasn't intentional to create, like, a career out of that, but I think being really strong in your convictions and sticking to, like, what you want to do will only create more work that you want to do.
所以挑剔并竭尽全力继续完成那些工作，我认为正是这一点让我在职业生涯中取得了一些成功。
So being picky and doing whatever it takes to continue to make that work, I think, is what has made a bit of success in my career so far.
不过但愿一切顺利，否则可能会急转直下。
But fingers crossed, I could all go downhill.
听起来你的志向正是引领你走到今天的关键，你一直着眼于更宏大、更美好的目标，真正投身于你热爱且充满激情的事业，并由此塑造了你迄今为止的职业道路。
It sounds very much like your aspirations are what led you to where you are now, and you had your sights set on bigger, better, and really getting to work on the things that you absolutely love and that you're passionate about and letting that create the career that you've led so far too.
我想说，如果有年轻人在听，那就是一定要坚持到底。
I would say, like, if someone young is listening, it's like really stick to it.
做你相信的事。
Do what you believe in.
不要追随潮流。
Don't follow trends.
不要做你认为别人希望你做的事，只管做你自己想做的，并全力以赴。
Don't follow what you think other people want you to do, but just do what you want to do and really push it and do whatever it takes.
比如，和你的朋友一起工作。
Like, work with your friends.
做一些没有报酬的工作。
Work on jobs that pay nothing.
但过段时间后，你就不能这样做了。
After a while, you can't do that.
但我认为年轻时，当你还没有孩子和房贷这些责任时，这真的很重要
But I I think it's really important when you're young and you don't have kids and a mortgage and all
那些确实需要
of those things that does take
承担很多责任的事情
a lot of responsibility.
做你真正热爱的事，超越潮流，超越期望
Do what you really love and think beyond trends and think beyond expectations.
这样做非常重要
It's really important to do that.
这真是绝佳的建议
That is such good advice.
我非常赞同这一点，也完全同意
I love that, and I totally agree with that too.
有时候你就得去做那件事
Sometimes you have to do that thing.
你必须经历这个过程，才能到达你想去的地方，证明自己，甚至探索你正在做的事情。
You have to do that process in order to get to where you wanna be and in order to prove yourself and even explore what you're doing.
如果你如此热爱它，那么是的，即使金钱不会立即到位，它也会让你快乐。
And if you love it that much, then yeah, like it's gonna make you happy even if the money isn't always there immediately.
所以今天我们要谈论夏洛特，我在你的生活和我们已经讨论过的所有事情中，看到了与夏洛特生活的许多相似之处。
So today, we're talking about Charlotte, and I see so many parallels with your life and all the stuff we've already talked about, and with Charlotte's life too.
但我确实想知道，或者说想直接听你讲讲为什么选择今天谈论夏洛特。
But I do want to know or want to hear directly from you why you chose to talk about Charlotte today.
是的。
Yeah.
我想她书的封面已经说明了一切，《夏洛特·格雷厄姆发明新世界》的封面。
I think the cover of her book, right, the cover of Charlotte Graham inventing a new world says it all.
真是个了不起的人物。
What a badass.
对吧？
Right?
所以呢？
So Yeah?
就是，她还不错。
Like like, she's okay.
以防听众不知道，她书封上有张半身照。
So just in case people are listening, there's a picture of her shirtless.
她背对着镜头。
Her back is to the camera.
双手高举，仿佛在群山前为世界欢呼。
Her two hands are lifted, like, rejoicing at the world in front of a mountain range.
这画面太震撼了。
And it's so epic.
对吧？
Right?
真是个狠角色。嗯哼。
What a badass Mhmm.
女人。
Woman.
但这作品确实很棒且极具标志性。
But then the work is really good and iconic.
比如，她曾为柯布西耶工作过。
Like, she worked as Corbusier.
很多人都叫他'柯布'，所以我也叫他柯布。
A lot of people call him Corbu, so I'll also call him Corbu.
但从历史角度看，柯布西耶确实是个混蛋。
But, historically, Corbu is seen as an asshole.
而她能与他共事十年并应对自如，我认为这也证明了她在那个年代——二三十年代——的坚韧，在男性主导的世界里工作并创造出如此标志性的作品。
And the fact that she worked with him for ten years and could deal with it, I think, is also a testament to, like, how strong she is in that time, in the twenties, in the thirties, working in a super male dominated world and creating such iconic pieces.
所以她的作品当然激励了我，尤其是她对材质的运用，但更激励我的是她在这个男性主导世界中的个性与存在本身，
So her work inspires me, of course, her use of materiality, but more so her personality and existence to work in this male dominated world, I think,
确实非常鼓舞人心，我我希望越来越多人了解她，尤其是女性群体。
is really inspiring, and I I hope more and more people hear about her, especially females.
她已去世二十多年了，我真希望能有更多关于她的视频资料留存。
She died over twenty years ago, and I wish there was more video footage of her.
能亲眼见到她本人该多好，因为她实在太令人着迷了。
It would be so wonderful to just experience her in real life because she's so fascinating.
接下来简单提一下资料来源，这些也会放在节目简介里。
So just to touch on some of the sources, and these will be linked in the show notes as well.
《卫报》有篇关于她的文章，还有她写的自传《创作的一生》。
There's the Guardian article about her and a Charlotte Perriand autobiography that she wrote called A Life of Creation.
另外还有《与夏洛特·佩里安共处》和《夏洛特·佩里安的现代生活》两本书。
And then there's the book Living with Charlotte Periand and a book called Charlotte Periand The Modern Life.
这些资料链接都可以在节目简介里找到。
And so you can look at all of those in the show notes.
为了让听众快速了解她：这位法国先锋设计师与建筑师生于1903年，卒于1999年，以对现代主义家具和室内设计的重大贡献闻名。
But just to give our listener a quick overview of who she is, She lived from nineteen o three to 1999, and she was a pioneering French designer and architect known for her significant contributions to modernist furniture and interiors.
正如你所说，谈及夏洛特就绕不开勒·柯布西耶，反之亦然。
And like you pointed out, you can't really talk about Charlotte without talking about Le Corbusier and vice versa.
她与勒·柯布西耶断断续续合作了近三十年，设计了诸如LC4躺椅等标志性作品。
She collaborated with him on and off for nearly three decades designing iconic pieces like the LC four chaise lounge.
后来她在日本生活期间，将东西方设计理念独特地融合到自己的作品中。
And later, she brought a unique blend of Western and Eastern design influences into her work after spending time in Japan.
佩里安是功能主义人文设计的先驱倡导者，尽管她生前的贡献常被男性同行掩盖。
Perriand was a trailblazer in advocating for functional human centered design, though her contributions were often overshadowed by her male counterparts during her lifetime.
夏洛特于10月3日出生于巴黎。
Charlotte was born in Paris on October '3.
按数学计算是121年前。
The math is 121 ago.
她最酷的地方——我认为也是激励她的原因——是她母亲是裁缝，父亲是制衣匠。
And what's so cool about her, and I think what what inspired her, is that her mother was a seamstress and her father was a tailor.
这培养了她对精确度和细节把控的热爱。
So that instilled her love of precision and attention to detail.
夏洛特自幼就追求功能与美学的融合。
From an early age, Charlotte sought to merge the functional with the beautiful.
因此，实用与美观的结合，这一理念后来被她定义为生活的艺术。
So what works and what looks good, a philosophy she would later define as the art of living.
她的高中美术老师很早就注意到了她的绘画天赋。
And her high school art teacher noticed her drawing abilities early on.
于是她进入了巴黎的一所艺术学校就读，法语称为Ecole des Arts Decoratifs。
And so she enrolled at a art school in Paris, and in French, it's called Eco des Arts Decoratives or Decoratifs.
那是在1920年，当时她17岁。
And this was in 1920 at the age of 17.
正是在那里，她潜心研究室内设计和家具设计。
And it was there that she immersed herself in studying interior design and furniture.
也是在这段时期，她开始倾向于使用铬、铝和玻璃等材料，这些材料在那个年代仍相当前卫。
And it was also during this time that she began to gravitate toward materials like chrome, aluminum, and glass, which were still quite radical for that era.
她在学校的早年岁月为未来职业生涯奠定了基础，在那里她不断突破当时被视为现代设计的界限。
Her early years at the school laid the groundwork for her future career, where she would constantly push the boundaries of what was considered modern.
从巴黎这所学校毕业两年后，佩里安就因在工业材料在家居领域的实验性运用而闻名，这与当时的潮流截然不同。
So two years after graduating from the school in Paris, Perri Anne became known for her experimental use of industrial materials in domestic settings, which was very different from what was happening at the time.
请记住，这是在装饰艺术风格之后。
Let's keep in mind this is after art deco.
她曾与装饰艺术风格的大师们一同学习，其中不乏非常著名的装饰艺术艺术家。
She studied with people in art deco, a very famous art deco artist.
她在装饰艺术风格中成长，然而毕业仅两年后，她就开始将工业材料融入自己的空间设计。
She grew up with art deco, and all of a sudden, two years after graduating, she's starting to put industrial materials into her spaces.
这与当时盛行的装饰艺术形成了显著背离。
This is a significant departure from the decorative arts at the time.
大约就在她毕业两年后这段时间，勒·柯布西耶已成为现代建筑与设计界极具影响力的人物。
It's around this time, two years after graduating, that Le Corbusier was already an influential figure in the world of modern architecture and design.
此时，他因其在功能主义、城市规划方面的开创性理论，以及在设计中运用现代工业材料而闻名。
At this time, he's well known for his groundbreaking theories on functionalism, urban planning, and the use of modern industrial materials in his designs.
他在巴黎乃至全世界都享有盛誉。
He's known worldwide in Paris and beyond.
他激进的理念正在重塑建筑与设计领域，使其成为当时既杰出又颇具争议的人物。
His radical ideas were shaping architecture and design, making him a prominent and somewhat controversial figure at the time.
夏洛特·佩里安也在关注他的作品。
Charlotte Perrienne was also keeping an eye on his work.
特别是她很喜欢他在1923年写的那本《走向新建筑》。
Specifically, she loved his book that he wrote in 1923 called Towards a New Architecture.
我认为她深受启发，因为她觉得他对装饰艺术的批判与她自己的设计理念不谋而合。
And I think she really vibed with it because she thought that his writings that criticized the decorative arts aligned with the way that she designed.
所以他写的是反装饰艺术的内容。
So he's writing about the anti art deco.
她当时正在创作反装饰艺术的作品。
She's making the anti art deco work at the time.
1927年，夏洛特·佩里安走进柯布西耶的办公室说：'我想要一份工作'。
In 1927, Charlotte Perian went to Corbusier's office and said, I want a job.
而历史上，他说出了最糟糕的一句话。
And historically, he said the worst line ever.
'我们这里不绣靠垫'——这话由柯布西耶说出来简直太贴切了，因为他就是个混蛋。
We don't embroider cushions here, which is such a perfect thing for Corbusier to say because he's an asshole.
但基本上，女生是不允许进工作室的。
But, basically, like, girls aren't allowed in the studio.
这是建筑行业。
This is architecture.
而我当时那套众所周知且备受尊敬的建筑理论，只适用于男性。
And my architecture, which, you know, was well known and respected at the time was only for males.
我很确定就在那面镜子前，他在巴黎看到了夏洛特的作品后当场雇佣了她。
I'm pretty sure that very same mirror, he saw Charlotte's work in Paris and hired her on the spot.
于是他收回了女性不能进工作室的言论，雇佣了她——最令人印象深刻的是，起初人们只把她看作女性，后来她的作品证明了一切。
So taking back what he said that females can't work at a studio, he hired her, which is really impressive that at first, she was seen as a female, and then her work shined through.
她得到这份工作完全靠作品实力，与性别无关，只因为她的作品确实出类拔萃。
And her work is what got her the job, not the fact that she was or or was not a female, but that her work was really exceptional.
她当时才二十出头，柯布西耶就说：你必须来我的工作室工作。
She's, like, in her early twenties, and Corbusier says, you need to work at my studio.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且，再提醒一下，这是一百年前的事。
And, like, another reminder, this is a hundred years ago.
我在想，夏洛特的出现是否真的帮他稍微平衡了一点对女性的看法。
I wonder if having Charlotte in his life really helped him balance his perspective of women just a tiny little bit maybe.
但你说话时我算了算，他其实比她大十六岁。
But I was doing the math while you were talking, and he's actually sixteen years older than her.
这也有助于理解他们的年龄差距——她如何仰望他，而当他事业已有所成时她才刚刚起步。
So that helps to put things into perspective too of what their age range looked like and how she looked up to him and how he was a little more established in his career by the time she was starting to get started.
我猜即使在一百年前，十六岁的年龄差感觉上可能比现在更悬殊。
And I imagine even a hundred years ago, that sixteen year gap was probably even bigger feeling than it would be today.
继续说回故事，她没有让这次拒绝阻止自己，而是坚持了下去。
And so to talk a little more about the story, rather than letting this rejection stop her, she persisted.
这很了不起。
And that's impressive.
这充分展现了她坚韧不拔的品质。
That shows so much resilience on her part.
就在被他拒绝的同一年，她推出了一个名为'Bar Sous L'Etoire'（屋顶下的酒吧）的大型项目。
So that same year that she was rejected by him, she presented this really big project called Bar Sous L'Etoire, bar under the roof.
这件由铬合金和玻璃制成的极简主义工业作品，彻底突破了传统装饰家具的框架。
And it's this minimalist industrial piece made from chrome and glass that broke away from traditional decorative furniture.
这个酒吧剥离了多余功能，采用通常用于工业领域的材料，在当时震惊了整个设计界。
The bar's stripped back functionality and use of materials typically reserved for industrial purposes shocked the design world at the time.
她的设计获得了媒体广泛赞誉，奠定了她作为值得关注的新锐设计师的地位。
Her design received wide praise from the press and established her as a talent to watch.
这也引起了勒·柯布西耶的表弟兼合作伙伴皮埃尔·让纳雷的注意，他力劝柯布西耶重新考虑她。
It also caught the attention of Le Corbusier's cousin and collaborator Pierre Jeanere, who urged Le Corbusier to reconsider her.
酒吧对玻璃、钢材和铝材的现代主义运用，完美体现了柯布西耶的功能主义与工业美学。
And so the bar's modernist use of glass and steel and aluminum perfectly embodied the functional and industrial aesthetic of Corbu.
在看过她的展览并认识到她的才华深度后，柯布西耶被打动了，邀请她加入自己的工作室。
And so after seeing her exhibit and realizing the depth of her talent, she won him over, and he invited her to join his studio.
这种逆境中的坚韧后来成为她职业生涯的标志性特质——她一次次重复这种精神，从不让困难阻挡自己。
And so this resilience in the face of adversity would become a hallmark of her career, something that she just does again and again and doesn't let things stop her.
这也标志着他们长达十年合作的开始，夏洛特成为了他工作室的核心人物。
And it also marked the beginning of their decade long collaboration with Charlotte becoming a key figure in his studio.
艺术性与坚持的结合使她重塑了我们对材料和设计的认知。
The combination of artistry and persistence led her to reshape how we think about materials and design.
她决心制作不仅美观吸引人，而且功能实用、面向普通大众的家具，这成为她职业生涯的重要主题。
And she was determined to make furniture that was not only aesthetically appealing, but also functional and accessible to everyday people, which is a very big theme in her career.
她不满足于仅为富裕阶层设计作品。
She was not satisfied with creating designs just for the well off.
她渴望为勒·柯布西耶工作，致力于系列化生产和低成本住房。
She wanted to work for Le Corbusier and pursue serial production and low cost housing.
我特别喜欢20岁的夏洛特·佩里安办这个展览的想法。
I love the idea of, like, 20 year old Charlotte Perrienne making this exhibition.
这真的太不可思议了。
Like, you know, it's so incredible.
我们看到这些图像时，就会直接接受它们呈现的样子。
We see the images and you take them for what they are.
就像，美丽的空间。
Like, beautiful space.
明白了。
Got it.
看起来超级酷。
Looks super cool.
无可挑剔。
Impeccable.
但她刚刚毕业。
But she's just graduated.
再说一次，多么了不起的女性。
Again, what an incredible woman.
这是她公寓设计的翻版。
And it was a redo of what she had done at her apartment.
对吧？
Right?
她先在公寓里做了这个设计，后来又为这次展览重新做了一遍
She, like, did it at her apartment and then redid it for this
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
展览。
Exhibition.
她是不是特别了不起？
So how incredible is she?
佩里安加入工作室后，柯布西耶非常希望她负责室内和家具部分。
Once Perriene joined the studio, Corbusier really wanted her to oversee the interiors and the furniture.
这就是她在工作室的定位。
So that was her place in the studio.
他专注于建筑本身，而希望她来完善那些细节工作。
He was all about architecture, and he really wanted her to be in the details with that work.
她形容他们的合作非常非常紧密，就像三个最好的朋友。
She talks about their collaboration being really, really tight, like three best friends.
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她还说他们就像一只手上的三根手指。
She also says that they were like three fingers on one hand.
这个团队共同设计了现代最具标志性的家具，包括LC1吊带椅、LC2大舒适扶手椅和LC4躺椅。
Together, the team would design some of the most iconic furniture pieces of the modern era, including the LC one sling chair, the LC two grand confour armchair, and the Shay Lounge LC four.
这些至今仍在生产的设计，因其极简美学和钢管材质的运用而具有革命性意义。
These designs, which are also still in production today, were revolutionary for their minimalist aesthetic and use of tubular steel.
让我们来思考一下。
So let's think about this.
LC1、LC2和LC4在1928年，这三把标志性椅子都是她一年内设计出来的。
LC one, LC two, and LC four in 1928, those three iconic chairs were made in one year drawn up by Charlotte Perion.
简直不可思议。
Like, incredible.
而她当时才25岁。
And she was 25 years old.
嗯。
Mhmm.
1928年推出的LC1悬带椅是一款简约而精致的椅子，采用钢管框架和皮革座椅设计。
So the LC one Sling chair of 1928 is a simple and sophisticated chair with a tubular steel frame and leather seat.
其设计理念聚焦于提供舒适体验，同时体现现代主义极简与功能性的理想。
Its design focuses on providing comfort while reflecting modernist ideals of minimalism and functionality.
佩里安在优化其人体工学比例方面发挥了重要作用，确保其既视觉惊艳又坐感舒适。
Perion played a significant role in refining its proportions in ergonomic form, ensuring that it was both visually striking and comfortable.
接下来是LC2和LC3大舒适扶手椅。
The LC two and LC three Grand Comfort armchairs were next.
这些扶手椅采用方正箱式造型。
These armchairs are the boxy ones.
它们具有结构分明的座椅。
They have structured seats.
由钢架结构、皮革软垫构成，遵循严格的几何设计规范。
They're made of steel frames, leather cushions, and designed with strict geometry.
所以那些看起来像小盒子的款式就是这几款。
So the ones that look like little boxes are are those ones.
它们旨在既舒适又简约，是对当时繁复家具的一种现代回应。
They were meant to be comfortable yet minimalist, a modern response to the more ornate furniture of the time.
正如我们讨论过的，佩里尼昂在设计这些椅子的结构和选材方面影响深远。
As we talked about, Perignan's influence was significant in designing the structure and materials of these chairs.
最初，这些椅子并非采用我们今天所熟知的镀铬工艺。
Originally, these chairs were not in the chrome that we know them today.
它们是经过喷漆的，所以原版椅子带有鲜艳的色彩，非常漂亮。
They were painted, so the original chairs have pops of color which are really beautiful.
如果我有机会拥有甚至购买一把，我可能会把钢架重新喷成我见过的那种浅蓝色。
And if I could ever have one or maybe even buy one, I might repaint the steel in the light blue that I've seen Yeah.
最初是喷漆的。
Painted originally.
接下来是LC4躺椅，也被称为'放松机器'。
And then there's a LC four chaise lounge, also known as the relaxing machine.
这可能是他们最著名的作品。
It's perhaps their most famous piece.
它采用皮革躺椅设计，悬挂在钢管框架上，让使用者能舒适伸展并躺下。
It features a reclining leather seat suspended on a tubular steel frame, allowing the user to stretch out in comfort and lay down.
佩里安在设计这款躺椅中发挥了关键作用。
Perlian was instrumental in designing the chaise.
她实际上用自己的身体来测试其人体工学设计。
She actually used her own body to test its ergonomics.
所以当你坐在LC4上时，你感受到的正是夏洛特·佩里安身体在这把椅子上的姿态，这很神奇——这把椅子是由女性根据女性身体设计的。
So when you sit in the LC four, you're actually feeling the way that Charlotte Perianne's body would be on that chair, which is amazing that a chair is designed by a female with a female's body.
因为我们知道，世界上大多数物品都是以男性身体为设计基准的，这点相当酷。
Because as we know, most objects in the world are designed with the male body informing the design, which is pretty cool.
这让我想起雷·伊姆斯的故事，她也设计过躺椅，同样以自身身体为参考，并为那把椅子注入了更多女性形态特征。
This actually reminds me of a story I know of with Ray Eames, and she also worked on a lounge and also was informed by her own body and was known to bring in more of a feminine form to that chair as well.
那大概是在三四十年后，或者可能只有二十年。
And that would have been like probably thirty or forty years later, or maybe it was actually even twenty years.
但依然很有趣，这成为这些女性家具设计师的共同主题，她们的作品最终成为标志性设计。
But still, like, that's really interesting that was a common theme with some of these women who were furniture designers and became iconic for their work.
正是这些时刻，她们真正以自己的身体作为灵感来源。
And it was those moments when they were actually using their own body as inspiration.
太棒了。
Amazing.
甚至都不是以女权主义的方式。
And not even in a feminist way.
就像，好吧，我是设计师，因为柯布西耶不想处理这些细节，所以我来搞定。
It's just like, well, I'm the designer here because Corbusier doesn't wanna deal with these details, so here we go.
我会以
I'll base it on
我的身体为基础。
my body.
尽管她做出了重大贡献，但她的作品经常被忽视，这些作品主要归功于勒·柯布西耶。
Despite her major contributions, her work often went unrecognized as the pieces were primarily attributed to La Corbusier.
这个三人组在工作室的合作关系很复杂，他们曾紧密合作过。
The collaborative dynamic of this trio in the studio, it was complex, and they worked closely together.
但科尔博经常将设计成果完全归功于自己，尽管夏洛特和珍妮尔在家具的概念构思与技术实现方面都做出了重要贡献。
But Corbeau frequently took full credit for their designs, even though Charlotte and Jeanere contributed significantly to both the conceptual and technical aspects of the furniture.
问题是卡尔布个性强势，或者更直白地说，他就是个混蛋。
The thing is, Karbu had a strong personality or I think more bluntly put, he was an asshole.
他热衷于自我宣传，经常将自己定位为工作室创作的主要推动力，导致外界普遍误以为工作室的设计成果都出自他一人之手。
He had a penchant for self promotion, and he often positioned himself as the primary creative force behind the studio's work, leading to a widespread misconception that he was solely responsible for the designs that came out of the studio.
例如，尽管LC4躺椅的设计夏洛特深度参与，但多年来这件作品却被完全归功于他。
So for example, even though Charlotte was heavily involved in designing the l four, it was attributed solely to him for many years.
而务实又热爱工作的夏洛特，始终默默为这些项目付出，从不追逐聚光灯。
And Charlotte being pragmatic and passionate about her work, continued to contribute to these projects without seeking the limelight.
但这种对她贡献的抹杀确实令她感到沮丧。
But this erasure of her contributions was a source of frustration for her.
有次讨论LC2扶手椅时，她曾有名言：勒·柯布西耶更关注家具的宏观概念框架，而她和珍妮·雷则负责解决具体细节——包括尺寸、材质和舒适度。
In one instance, during a discussion about the LC two armchair, she famously recalled that Le Corbusier was more interested in the broader conceptual framework of the furniture while she and Jeanne Ray worked out the details such as the dimensions, materials, and comfort level.
她常提到自己会亲身测试家具，甚至直接以自己的身体作为模型。
She often spoke of her hands on approach on testing the furniture, literally using her own body as a model.
多年来，她被历史遗忘，许多人以为这些设计完全是男性建筑师的成果。
And for years, she was written out of history with many assuming the designs were solely the work of male architects.
直到晚年，她才开始获得应得的认可。
It wasn't until much later in life that she began receiving the credit she deserved for her role.
她在工作室里不知疲倦地工作。
And she worked tirelessly at the studio.
她投入大量时间完善每件作品，理应获得这些荣誉。
So she should have received all of this credit that she put so much time into perfecting each piece.
这些作品如此完美，至今仍在使用，正是因为它们的完美。
And they were so perfect and are still around today because of how perfect they are.
我想说这完全归功于夏洛特的工作。
And I would say that's all thanks to Charlotte's work on them.
不过我喜欢这部分，就是
And so I like this part though, is
那个
that
科博最终承认了她的才华，在回忆录中写道夏洛特·佩里安拓展了现代家具设计的疆域，将其转变为一片广阔而包容的领域——在这里，生活难题以尊严和想象力被重新诠释。
Corbeau eventually acknowledged her genius, noting in his memoirs that Charlotte Perriand extended the field of modern furnishing, transforming it into a vast, generous domain where the problems of life are approached with dignity and imagination.
所以他最终还是醒悟了，尽管这迟来了太多太多。不过那时候他的自负已经消磨了不少，终于能够承认夏洛特的贡献。
So he finally came around, even though it was much, much later, But, you know, his ego was broken down a little more at that point, and he was finally able to acknowledge Charlotte.
嗯。
Yeah.
我也觉得他其实是尊重她的。
I also think, like, he did respect her.
虽然作品都归在他名下——毕竟那是他的工作室，但我认为他比其他女性更尊重她。
Although, like, the work was attributed to him, like, it was his studio, I think he respected her more than other females.
比如对待艾琳·格雷，他居然趁对方不在时，闯进她在法国南部的住宅（就在他家附近），在屋里画了巨幅涂鸦。
Like, with Eileen Gray, he literally went into Eileen Gray's house, which was near his house in the South Of France while she was gone and painted a big mural inside of her house.
太不尊重人了。
So disrespectful.
但对夏洛特·佩里安，我认为他确实心怀敬意。
But with Charlotte Perienne, I think he he really did respect her.
比如，有张她的照片。
Like, there's a picture of her.
那是她的肖像画。
It's a a portrait of her.
你会注意到有只小手在她脑后举着个盘子。
And you notice a little hand holding, like, a a plate behind her head.
他这么做是想用这个盘子让她看起来像个天使
And what he's doing is he's making her look like an angel with this plate behind
在她脑后。
her head.
找到那张图片，真的很惊艳。
Find that image, but it's really amazing.
所以我认为他确实尊重她，但更令人惊叹的是能谈论这件事并给予她应得的赞誉。
So I think he really respected her, but it's even more amazing to talk about it and give her the credit that she was due.
在与柯布西耶共事十年后，夏洛特和柯布西耶因部分政治分歧而关系破裂。
So after working with Corbusier for a decade, Charlotte and Corbusier experienced a falling out in part due to political differences.
三十年代期间，随着两人对社会和政治的见解逐渐分歧，紧张关系开始加剧。
Tensions began to rise during the thirties as their views on society and politics diverged.
佩里·安妮日益投身左翼政治活动，深受欧洲共产主义和社会主义思潮兴起的影响。
Perri Anne became increasingly involved in left wing politics and was deeply influenced by the rise of communism and socialism in Europe.
佩里·安妮将设计视为社会变革的工具，开始热衷于为工人阶级而不仅是精英阶层创造功能实用、价格亲民的家具。
Perri Anne saw design as a tool for social change and became passionate about creating functional and affordable furniture for the working class, not just the elite.
她坚信设计应当服务于整个社会，而非仅是富人能购买的奢侈品。
She believed that design should serve society at large, not just be an object that can be bought by rich people.
而柯布西耶的政治立场更为复杂，众所周知他与威权政权有所往来，这与佩里安的信念完全背道而驰。
Corbusier, on the other hand, had more complicated political views, and he was known to have connections with the authoritarian regimes, which was totally against what Perian was believing.
因此在1937年，佩里安离开了柯布西耶工作室，开始追寻自己的道路。
So in 1937, Perian left Corbus studio and began to pursue her own path.
是的。
Yes.
她渴望通过设计更直接地解决社会问题，这种信念深深影响着她。
She was influenced by her desire to address social issues more directly through her designs.
正如我们之前讨论的，缺乏认可可能也是促使她决定离开的原因之一，这完全合情合理。
There are also indications that a lack of recognition, which we talked about, may have also contributed to her decision to leave as well, which makes total sense.
在与他共事十年后，她终于下定决心。
After working with him for ten years, she was like, okay.
我需要独自闯出一片天地。
I need to go on my own.
那时她可能已经充满自信，确信自己能够成功。
She probably had a lot of confidence at that point and knew that she could make it happen.
于是在1940年，佩里安受邀为日本政府提供工业设计方面的建议。
So in 1940, Perian was then invited by the Japanese government to advise on industrial designs.
1940年。
1940.
当时正值战争期间。
This is during the war.
对吧？
Right?
二战期间移居日本的经历对她的作品产生了深远影响。
So this move to Japan during World War two had a profound influence on her work.
佩里安深受日本工艺及其与自然和谐关系的启发。
Perian was really inspired by the Japanese craftsmanship and their harmonious relationship with nature.
这些影响体现在她后期的设计中，尤其是她对竹木等天然材料的使用。
These influences would appear in her later designs, especially in her use of natural materials like bamboo and wood.
在日本期间，佩里安的任务是为工业化生产提供设计建议。
While in Japan, Peri Anne was tasked with advising on design for industrial production.
日本政府甚至委托她研究如何将日本商品和家具设计出口到欧洲的方法。
She was actually asked by the Japanese government to figure out a way to export Japanese goods and objects and furniture to Europe.
她作为家具设计专家被邀请前往，因此她在日本停留了五年。
She came in as a specialist on furniture design, and so that's why she was there for five years.
她甚至参与了茶道并研究禅宗哲学，这极大地影响了她的设计理念。
She even participated in tea ceremonies and studied Zen philosophy, which greatly influenced her approach to design.
她在日本接触到的有机形态和天然材料，与她早期职业生涯中使用的工业材料形成鲜明对比。
The organic shapes and natural materials she encountered in Japan stood in stark contrast to the industrial materials she had used earlier in her career.
好的。
Okay.
让我们暂停一下，思考一下夏洛特生活中的这个转变。
So let's pause and reflect upon the change here in Charlotte's life.
在她二十出头时，你可以看到夏洛特·佩里安戴着这种手工制作的滚珠轴承项链的照片。
So in her early twenties, you can see images of Charlotte Perrienne wearing this handmade ball bearing necklace.
她曾推崇机械制造的家具，而现在她转向了自然。
She celebrated machine made furniture, and now she turns to nature.
她的作品开始使用木材和天然材料，这就是我喜欢夏洛特的原因。
Her work starts to use wood and natural materials, and this is why I love Charlotte.
她不是单一维度的。
She isn't one dimensional.
在她的一生中，我们看到她不断成长和变化，正是这一点让她的作品对我——我相信对其他人也是——更加有趣。
Throughout her life, we see her grow and change, and this is what makes her work more interesting to me and I'm sure everybody else.
她的好奇心塑造了这些作品。
Her curiosity shapes the work.
这不是追随潮流，她也不拘泥于单一风格。
It's not trends, and she's not beholden to one style.
她从那个佩戴滚珠轴承项链的机械风女孩，转变成了专注竹木工艺的设计师。
She goes from, like, the machine girl that wears ball bearings as a necklace to, like, I'm gonna work with bamboo and wood.
好的。
Okay.
显然，佩里昂在日本的时光因战争爆发而中断，她被迫返回法国。
So Perion's time in Japan was cut short, obviously, by the outbreak of war, and she was forced to return to France.
然而，这段经历深深烙印在她的作品中，她在整个职业生涯中持续融合东西方设计理念。
However, the experience remained deeply ingrained in her work, and she continued to blend eastern and western design principles throughout the rest of her career.
回顾在日本的岁月时，她曾说：‘我从日本学到的不仅是材料或技艺，更是在创造人类生活空间时，那份简约与克制的深刻意义’，这句话实在太美了。
Reflecting on her time in Japan, she said, quote, the lessons I learned from Japan were not about materials or techniques alone, but about the importance of simplicity and restraint in creating spaces for human life to unfold, which is so beautiful.
1940至1946年的日本岁月，无论对她还是对日本设计而言都具有变革性意义。
Her time in Japan from 1940 to 1946 was transformative both for her and for Japanese design.
是啊。
Yeah.
我特别喜欢这个故事，有趣的是她甚至对日本设计也产生了影响。
I love that story, and it's so interesting how she even had an influence in Japanese design too.
再深入谈谈她的设计理念和哲学，这对她的职业生涯至关重要。
Just to talk a little more about her design ethos and philosophy, which is so important in her career.
战后她回到欧洲，那时她的设计需求已经非常旺盛。
So after the war, she returned to Europe, and she was in high demand at this point.
我记得她那时大概四十多岁。
So she's about in her forties, I believe.
她继续承接大型项目，包括日内瓦联合国大楼的联盟国大厦设计，以及伦敦、巴黎和东京的法国航空办公室改造。
And she continued to work on large scale projects, and she worked on the League of Nations building for the United Nations in Geneva, and the remodeling of Air France's offices in London, Paris and Tokyo.
她的室内设计理念在当时极具前瞻性。
Her approach to interior design was so forward thinking for her time.
如今我们常认为室内设计就是混搭不同设计师的家具，但她更倾向于为项目设计整套家具系列。
Today, we often know of interior design is curating a mix of furniture from different designers, but she preferred to design the entire suite of furniture for her projects.
她真正触及了空间的每一个细节。
She really touched every bit of the space.
她坚信要创造和谐统一的环境，从建筑到家具的每个元素都应符合她对功能性、简约与和谐的愿景。
She believed in creating cohesive environments where every element from the architecture to the furnishings aligned with her vision of functionality, simplicity, and harmony.
这种理念源于她的哲学思想：家具应当服务于空间和使用者，而非仅作装饰之用。
And this approach was rooted in her philosophy that furniture should serve the space and the people inhabiting it rather than being decorative.
她对混搭风格兴趣寥寥，更专注于设计能体现植根于现代主义原则的单一愿景的环境。
She was less interested in mixing styles and more focused on designing environments that reflected a singular vision rooted in modernist principles.
这让我想起我们之前讨论你工作时提到的理念——让整个空间通过单一叙事或统一视觉呈现，正如她的设计观。
That reminds me a lot about what we were talking about with your work in terms of letting an entire space come together with one story or with this singular vision as she was seeing things too.
因此她坚持亲自设计所有家具，这使她与同时代设计师截然不同，并确立了其以功能性和使用者需求为核心的设计声誉。
And so she insisted on designing all the furniture, of course, and this set her apart from many of her contemporaries and helped solidify her reputation as a designer who prioritized functionality and the needs of the user above everything else.
这也反映了更广泛的现代主义运动特征。
It was also reflective of the broader modernist movement too.
这场运动旨在创造建筑、家具与人类体验之间的和谐关系。
And this movement is what sought to create harmony between architecture, furniture and the human experience.
正如她曾说过的一句话：‘对我来说，最重要的始终是人的元素。’
And so one of the things that she said was, quote, the most important thing for me has always been the human element.
设计不在于物体本身
Design is not about the object itself.
而在于这个物体如何影响使用它的人
It is about how that object affects the people who use it.
慢切
Slow cut.
好理念
Good philosophy.
真的
Really
我是
am.
我是说 对
I mean Yeah.
对
Yeah.
难以置信。
Incredible.
太美了。
So beautiful.
我要讲讲法国马赛的那段时期，那是夏洛特独立闯荡后又回到柯布西耶身边的时光。
I'm gonna talk about in Marseille, France, which is the time that Charlotte came back to Corbusier after striking out on her own.
他打电话给她说，我有个项目。
He called her up and said, I have this project.
我想你会喜欢的。
I think you're gonna like it.
当然，她确实喜欢。
And, of course, she did.
这次合作标志着他们在早先分道扬镳后又重新开始与柯布西耶共事，并突显了他们对社会住房解决方案和功能设计的共同兴趣。
This collaboration marked a return to working with Corbusier after their earlier split and highlighted their mutual interest in social housing solutions and functional design.
所以战后的欧洲，满目疮痍。
So postwar Europe, is destroyed.
这正是探索如何为真正需要的人们建造低成本住房的最佳时机。
This is the perfect time to explore what it looks like to create low cost housing for people that really need it.
于是她与柯布西耶合作开展这个项目。
So she works with Corbusier on this.
佩里·安妮的职责专注于打造功能性强、紧凑且灵活的室内空间，这符合她现代主义、以用户为中心的设计理念。
Perrie Anne's role focused on creating functional, compact, and flexible interior spaces that aligned with her vision of modernist, user centered design.
柯布西耶作为建筑师主导项目，但佩里·安妮与他密切合作，设计了公寓内部空间及所有嵌入式家具和物品。
Corbusier obviously led the project as the architect, but Perrie Anne collaborated closely with him in designing the interiors of the apartments and all of the built in furniture and objects.
她运用自己在模块化家具设计方面的专长，最大化利用有限空间。
She applied her expertise in modular furniture design to maximize limited space.
这些空间非常小，只有840平方英尺。
These spaces were really small, 840 square feet.
对欧洲人来说大约是78平方米，真是非常狭小的空间。
For the Europeans, that's about 78 square meters, so tiny little spaces.
因此她采用嵌入式储物方案和节省空间的家具，确保住宅区的每个单元既实用又能为居民提供舒适体验。
So she used built in storage solutions and space saving furniture, ensuring that each unit in the housing complex was both practical and comfortable for its residents.
她还采用了开放式平面设计，这在当时是个创新概念。
She also used an open plan design, which was an innovative concept at the time.
她使用滑动隔断和多功能家具，创造出能适应一天中不同用途的灵活空间。
She used sliding partitions in multifunctional furniture to create flexible spaces that could adapt to different uses throughout the day.
这类设计的几个例子包括：：厨房区域集成的折叠式餐桌，以及不用时可以直立收纳在墙上的折叠床。
A couple of examples of these designs were the fold down dining tables that were integrated into the kitchen area and fold away beds that could be stored upright against the wall when not in use.
这栋建筑太美了。
This building is so beautiful.
我觉得她的很多作品都是用黑白影像记录的，所以看不到色彩。
I feel like a lot of her work is captured in black and white, so you don't get to see the color.
不过YouTube上有一些很棒的实景纪录片值得一看，里面展示的那些美丽色彩肯定有她的参与。
But there are some really beautiful walk through kind of documentaries on YouTube that are worth the watch to see the beautiful colors actually that I'm sure she had a part in.
但没错，这个空间是他们重新合作的成果，我觉得这也体现了佩里安的品格——她能够与曾经有过分歧的人重新共事，这种想法真的很美好也很酷。
But, yeah, this space was a collaboration where they came back together, which I think also speaks to Perrienne's character that she could go back to someone that maybe she had a falling out with and work together again, which is really beautiful and and really cool to think about.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为她明白他们的协作精神确实创造了最佳成果。
I think she understood that their collaborative nature really did create the best results.
他们各自为这些项目带来了不同的优势。
They both had different strengths that they brought to these projects.
那时他们彼此非常了解，真正理解对方的设计理念。
And this was a time when they really knew each other, and they really understood each other's design approach.
这才造就了这个至今仍被人们津津乐道的项目，一直被奉为经典。
And it just created this project that has been talked about to this day, and it's just always referenced and all of that.
我想是因为在那个时期，他们确实配合得天衣无缝。
And I think it was because at that point, they just really melded well together.
之后他们断断续续合作了大约二十年。
And they continued to work on and off together for the next twenty or so years.
但让她登峰造极的项目之一，是法国阿尔卑斯山莱萨尔克滑雪度假村的设计。
But one project that became one of her crowning achievements was the design of the Les Arcs ski resort in the French Alps.
所以我们也不能不谈谈这个项目。
And so we can't not talk about this project either.
她负责设计滑雪度假村客房的内部空间，并再次专注于打造模块化的功能性区域，以满足居民和游客的双重需求。
She was responsible for designing the interiors of the ski resorts rooms, and then again, focusing on creating modular functional spaces that could accommodate the needs of both residents and tourists.
在参与Les Arcs项目期间，她以亲力亲为的工作方式闻名。
During her work on Les Arcs, she was known for her hands on approach.
她长期居住在山区，亲自监督施工进程。
She lived in the mountains for extended periods and personally supervised the construction process.
哇。
Wow.
这确实需要将项目从头到尾跟进到底，全程参与并提供帮助，耗费大量时间精力，同时保持设计专注与完整性。
It's really seeing a project through to the very end and being there and helping through the process that takes so much time and attention and focus and design integrity.
就像她必须亲自参与每个环节那样。
Like she had to be there very hands on with all of it.
她曾说过：‘我独自探访一个国家或历史遗址时，喜欢沉浸在其氛围中’。
And she said, quote, I like being alone when I visit a country or historic site.
‘我喜欢与场所直接产生共鸣，不受第三方干扰的纯粹体验。’
I like being bathed in its atmosphere, feeling in direct contact with the place without the intrusion of a third party.
因此她的设计方法包括亲临现场并欣赏其原有风貌。
And so her approach to design includes taking in the site and appreciating it for what it is.
我很欣赏这一点。
And I like that.
就像有些人会先搬进房子住一段时间，再开始装修，他们想先感受空间氛围等等。
I mean, it's like some people will move to a house first before they do any work on it, and they want to get a feel for its space and all of that.
这让我想到她希望先以居民身份去感受，这样才能确保设计与环境完美契合。
And that's what this reminds me of is she wants to feel like a resident first, so that she can really make sure that this makes sense with the environment.
她注重使用可持续材料，并确保室内设计与自然景观无缝融合。
She focused on the use of sustainable materials and made sure that the interiors blended seamlessly with the natural landscape.
这些公寓也很紧凑。
These apartments were compact too.
她想营造开阔感，在节省空间方面非常巧妙，再次运用了可收纳的多功能家具，需要时能腾出更多空间。
She wanted to provide a sense of spaciousness, and she was very clever with space saving techniques and multifunctional furniture again that you can put away and have more space when you needed it.
这个项目也并非一帆风顺。
And this project wasn't without its difficulties.
因此她遭到了开发商的反对，这些开发商更关注利润而非她对可持续性和功能性设计的愿景。
So she faced pushback from developers who are more concerned with profit than with her vision for sustainability and functional design.
但她坚持斗争，确保她以人为本的设计原则得以贯彻。
But she fought to ensure that her principles of human centered design were maintained.
她曾说过，设计不仅仅是排列的艺术，更是创造能回应用户需求的生活空间的方式。
And she once remarked that design is not simply an art of arrangement, but a way of creating living spaces that respond to the needs of the people who inhabit them.
所以我再次看到了如此完整的设计理念。
So again, I see so much design integrity there.
在她生命的最后几十年，佩里安终于获得了应得的认可。
So in the final decades of her life, Perriene finally started getting the recognition that she deserved.
1985年，她被法国文化部授予艺术与文学骑士勋章，以表彰她对艺术的重大影响。
She was appointed commander of the order of arts and letters by the French Ministry of Culture in 1985, acknowledging her significant impact on the arts.
1998年，在她去世前不久，法国政府还授予了她国家最高荣誉之一的法国荣誉军团勋章。
Also in 1998, shortly before her death, the French government awarded her the Legion of Honor, one of the country's highest distinctions.
在她去世后，通过展览和设计再版（最著名的是2005年在巴黎蓬皮杜中心举办的大型回顾展）来纪念她的遗产，这巩固了她作为现代主义设计关键人物的地位。
And posthumously, her legacy has been celebrated through exhibitions and reissued designs, most notably in a major retrospective held at the Centre Pompidou in Paris in 2005, which solidified her place as a key figure in modernist design.
此外，她在路易威登基金会的展览规模宏大，完整记录了她的全部作品，美不胜收。
Also, her exhibition at Foundation Louis Vuitton was a huge exhibition which chronicles, like, all of her work, and it was so beautiful.
那本大部头著作《夏洛特·佩里安：发明新世界》真的很棒。
And that's really the tome the book, Charlotte Perry Ann, inventing a new world.
请一定要买来看看。
Please buy it.
这本书实在太精彩了。
It is so good.
而且显而易见，她的作品至今仍在深刻影响着当代设计界的每个人。
And, obviously, her work continues to influence everybody in contemporary design.
她的所有设计作品都在重新发行并受到认可，在卡西纳官网上都能看到。
All of her pieces are being reissued and recognized when you go to the casino website.
LC1234系列不仅冠有勒·柯布西耶的大名，后来也加上了夏洛特·佩里安的名字——虽然最初设计时并未联名。
The LC one two three four not only has Le Corbusier's name, but it also has Charlotte Perian's name, which was not original, which kind of came afterwards.
如今，夏洛特·佩里安的作品当之无愧成为现代设计的标志，她将功能性与美学相融合的理念持续激励着无数设计师。
Today, Charlotte Perrienne's pieces are considered obviously icons of modern design, and her philosophy that she blends functionality with aesthetics continues to inspire so many designers.
她的作品如此美丽，如此简约。
Her work is so beautiful, so simple.
我认为她作品的独特之处在于她为简约带来的那份自信。
And I think, like, what is so special about her work is the confidence in simplicity that she brings to it.
当然，有一点特别值得指出的是她写了一本自传，这在我们讨论过的所有女性设计师中并不常见。
And, of course, one thing to really call out is she wrote an autobiography, which is not normal for all these women designers that we've talked about.
关于我们提到的这些女性设计师，历史记载实在太少了。
There's so little history on some of the women we've covered.
令人欣慰的是她有自己的自传，可以回顾她的整个职业生涯。
And it's so great that she has her own autobiography to reflect back on her entire career.
这本自传名为《创造的一生》，法语原名是《Un vie des Creation》。
It's called A Life of Creation or in French, Un vie des Creation.
该书出版于1998年，记录了她非凡的职业生涯与人生历程。
And it was published in 1998 and offered a personal account of her extraordinary career and life.
同时也反映了她长达六十年的创作旅程。
And it also reflects her entire six decade long journey.
这本出版物在她去世前一年问世，为她提供了难得的分享个人故事和遗产的机会，而她人生的大部分光芒曾被男性合作者所掩盖。
So the publication came just one year before her death, and provided a rare opportunity for her to share her personal story, and her legacy and much of her life had been overshadowed by male collaborators.
所以这是她真正为自己发声的时刻。
So this was her moment to really speak for herself.
值得一提的是，这本书后来成为了解现代主义设计的重要资料，真正理解她的贡献、设计动机及设计哲学。
And so one thing to call out is that this book has since become an important source of insight into modernist design, and really understanding her contributions and her motives and philosophy of design.
更难得的是，她讨论了在男性主导领域作为女性面临的挑战——这些话题在90年代也鲜少被提及，我认为当时几乎没人会触及这类问题。
And what's also nice is she discusses the challenges she faced as a woman in a male dominated field, which you didn't really address in the 90s that much either, or I think very few people dressed stuff like that.
她还活着见证了自己的作品被新一代设计师所接纳。
And she also lived to see her work embraced by a new generation of designers.
因此她的名声大约在这个时期真正开始显扬，这也得益于她的书。
And so her name started to really come out around this time, and it was also thanks to her book.
综上所述，我很想知道你从她的故事中得到的最重要启示是什么？
With all of that said, I would love to know what is your biggest takeaway from her story?
我想我最欣赏她的一点是，她当时可能是在最酷的工作室工作。
I guess what I, like, love most about her is that she was working at a probably, like, the coolest studio at the time.
对吧？
Right?
她的兴趣始终是为大众设计家具，为每个人打造生活用品，让人们能与这些设计共处。
Her interest was still to make furniture for everybody and to design pieces for everybody and to design for people to live with these objects.
所以她性格很坚韧。
So she's strong in character.
她是位自信的设计师，我想这正是我最敬佩她的地方。
She's a confident designer, and I think that's what I respect about her the most.
是的。
Yeah.
对我来说，最令人印象深刻的是她将自己视为载体，通过自己为他人创造设计。
I would say for me, it's so impressive, this idea of becoming a vessel and seeing herself as the means to create designs for other people.
她在某种程度上将自己从中抽离，摒弃自我，始终牢记使用者的需求进行创作。
And that she's somewhat removes herself from that a little bit and removes her ego from it and is creating stuff where she's really keeping in mind the person that's going to use it.
我认为这其中包含了许多佛教思想，真正通过设计将人们连接起来。
And I think there's a lot of like Buddhist theology and all of that too, and really thinking about connecting people through design.
这真是个很好的提醒，说到底，这才是设计的本质。
And it's such a good reminder that at the end of the day, that's what design is all about.
而这正是我们存在的意义。
And that's what we're here for.
这也提醒我作为设计师，要真正考虑所有细节，为用户着想而非自己，在过程中放下自我，并坚持完成项目——这有时很难做到，比如当我设计包装或需要印刷的物品时，虽然希望它们实用完美，但很容易让制造商或印刷商去处理那些细节。
And it's a reminder for me as a designer to really think about all of those details and to think the person and not me and to remove myself from the process and to also see a project through to the end, which is sometimes hard to do, like even when I'm working on like packaging, and objects that are going to get printed and would hopefully be functional and all of that, it's sometimes easy to just let the manufacturers or the printers work out all those details.
但这确实是个很好的提醒：坚持到底很重要，因为最后的细节处理往往才是最困难的部分。
But it is a good reminder to really stick it out to the end because that really is sometimes the hardest part is all of those details at the end.
安珀，非常感谢你的邀请。
Amber, thank you so much for having me.
这次对话太棒了。
That was so cool.
是啊。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
能听到你对所有事情的见解真是太棒了，尤其是你在许多类似设计项目上的经验。
It's been so great to hear your insights on everything and especially your experience with a lot of similar design projects.
所以你能来到这里让我非常兴奋，我迫不及待想继续见证你创造的精彩作品。
And so it's so exciting to have you here, and I can't wait to keep seeing the amazing things you're creating as well.
特别感谢艾迪·古德里奇今天分享她的观点。
A special thanks to Adie Goodrich for sharing her perspective today.
艾迪自己的作品同样体现了通过设计讲故事的执着，她的项目完美展示了设计在塑造空间和体验方面的强大力量。
Adie's own work reflects a similar dedication to storytelling through design and her projects show just how powerful design can be in shaping spaces and experiences.
一定要关注八十工作室Sing Sing，跟随她这段非凡的旅程。
Be sure to check out eighty Studio Sing Sing and follow along with her incredible journey.
在结束之前，我想再次提醒您，如果您喜欢收听这期播客，请留下文字评价。
And before we wrap up, I want to remind you again, if you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, please leave a written review.
您的支持能让这些故事延续下去，触达更多听众。
Your support helps us keep these stories alive and reach a wider audience.
让我们共同努力，确保这些女性的贡献得到认可。
Together, we can ensure these women are recognized for their contributions.
非常感谢您的收听。
Thank you so much for listening.
下次再见。
See you next time.
在此期间，让我们通过颂扬女性来重新书写历史。
And until then, let's redesign history by celebrating women.
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