拉迪·德夫卢基亚

这里是iHeart播客《人类保证》节目。

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是索菲亚。

It's Sofia.

欢迎收听《工作进展中》。

Welcome to work in progress.

你好啊，亲爱的朋友们。

Hello, sweet friends.

今天，我们一定会更了解身体所需，或许还能学会如何更好地善待它们。

Today, we are definitely gonna get smarter about what our bodies need and maybe how to treat them a little nicer.

我很赞同这个观点。

I'm a fan of that.

今天的嘉宾正是罗迪·德维鲁卡。

Today's guest is none other than Roddy DeVluca.

她是一位植物基厨师，一位使命驱动的企业家，也是适应原茶品牌Juni的联合创始人。

She is a plant based cook, a mission driven entrepreneur, and the cofounder of the adapt ogenic tea brand, Juni.

凭借她作为营养师和营养学家的背景，以及对阿育吠陀的研究，罗迪分享了从食谱、健康建议、养生视频、天然护肤美容到如何过一种有意识的生活方式等方方面面。

With her background as a dietitian and nutritionist and her studies in Ayurveda, Roddie shares everything from her recipes, health tips, wellness videos, natural skincare, and beauty, and how to live a conscious lifestyle.

我很幸运通过她出色的丈夫杰·谢蒂认识了罗迪。

I'm lucky enough to know Roddy through her wonderful husband Jay Shetty.

自从我第一次参加他的播客那天见到她，我就一直很喜欢她。

And since the day that I met her when I first did his podcast, I have just adored her.

她是那种热情极具感染力的人。

She is the kind of person whose passion is infectious.

她是那种当你在房间里看到她时，会跑过去拥抱的人。

She's the kind of person who when you see her in a room, you run to her for a hug.

她就是一个凝聚者和连接者，我喜欢她能量的所有方面，也喜欢她与人分享智慧的方式。

She is just a gatherer and a connector, and I I love everything about her energy, and I love the way that she shares her wisdom with people.

她对建立一个健康养生社区充满热情，这个社区鼓励人们了解自己，不是去追求某些疯狂难以企及的标准，而是真正向内探索去理解自己——正如我所说——包括他们的环境、他们摄入或接触的一切等等。她曾被《女性健康》、《福布斯》、《今日秀》、《走进好莱坞》等众多媒体报道。

She is so passionate about building a health and wellness community that encourages people to understand themselves, not to live up to some crazy unattainable standard, but to really go inward to understand themselves, as I said, their environment, everything they put on or in their body and more, she's been featured everywhere from women's health to Forbes to the Today Show, Access Hollywood, and so many more.

她的新书《Joyful》现已上市销售。

And her book, Joyful, is available for purchase now.

这是一本内容丰富且引人入胜的书，收录了125多种植物性食谱，并真正教会读者如何善待自己。

It is an abundant and inviting book that has more than a 125 plant based recipes and really teaches readers about being kind to themselves.

让我们深入了解这位鼓舞人心的女性是如何掌握她的专业领域的。

Let's dive in and figure out how this inspiring woman learned how to do what she does.

罗迪，很高兴你能来参加播客。

Roddie, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

在我们相识并共事的这些年里。

In in the years that we've known each other and been at things together.

每次看到你走进房间，我总是满心欢喜。

I just I'm always so happy when I see you walk into a room.

你就是这样的光。

You're such a light.

谢谢。。

Thank you.

我看到你时也有同样的感觉。

I feel the same way when I see you.

噢，你这甜美的灵魂。

Oh, you sweet soul.

你就像，真的是最温柔的人之一。

You're just like, you really are one of the sweetest people.

我深深着迷于你所做的工作和你对世界产生的影响。

And I'm so into what you do and the impact you make in the world.

我当时就想，我要在节目上问她所有问题。

And I was like, I want to ask her every question on the show.

这有点奇怪。

That's weird.

那就开始吧。

Let's do it.

我还没机会这样坐下来好好聊聊。

I haven't got to sit down like this.

知道吗，这很有趣。

Know, this is fun.

好的，在我们我们继续之前。首先，我真的很喜欢和每一位嘉宾一起回顾过去，因为观众们关注你、了解你的工作、知道你有新书即将出版，也了解你目前

Okay, so before we get into life as it is now, I actually really like to rewind with everyone who comes on because the people follow you and they know your work and they know you have a book coming out and you know, everything you're up to now.

但每当我与那些在世界上为自己开辟出如此美好空间的人坐下来时，我总是很好奇，当你回顾自己的人生，看着那个10岁的小罗迪时，你能在她身上看到今天这个女人的影子吗？

But I'm always curious when I sit down with someone who's carved out this sort of beautiful space for themselves in the world, if when you look back at your life and you look at the little Roddy who was 10, let's say, do you see in her pieces of the woman that you are today?

这个问题问得太好了。

That's such a good question.

你知道吗，每次有人问起我的童年，总觉得很怪异，我感觉自己只能通过照片和录像来了解自己的童年。

You know, every time I get asked about my childhood, it's such a weird thing, but I feel like I only know my childhood through pictures and videos of myself.

感觉我拥有

Feel like I have

见过 真的吗？

seen Really?

是的。

Yeah.

我对童年的记忆确实很模糊，可能需要好好梳理一下，但我真的记不清了。

I really have faint memories of my childhood, and I probably need to unpack that, but I really don't remember.

但我记得自己曾是个非常快乐的孩子。

But I remember being a really happy child.

比如，我特别幸运能在一个父母都非常优秀的家庭中长大，我觉得自己的童年非常安稳、有安全感。

Like, I was so lucky to grow up in a family where my mom and my dad were just amazing and wonderful, and I felt like I had a very secure, safe childhood.

对此我真的很感恩。

And I'm really grateful for that.

当时只觉得这就是我的日常。

Now, at the time, it just felt like my normality.

但现在长大后，看到有些人的生活境遇，才意识到：哇，能拥有那样的童年真的很特别。

But, you know, now having grown up and seen how life can turn out for some people, was like, wow, that was really special to have had that in my life.

从所有视频资料里我只记得，我总是想站在镜头前。

All I remember is from all my videos and stuff, I'd be always wanting to be in front of the camera.

我一直都是这样的人，但这种情况只持续到某个年龄，之后我就变得非常害羞了。

I was always the person, but that was up until a certain age, and then I got really shy.

但小时候的我，总是那个在镜头前讲笑话的人。

But when I was younger, I was the one that was like, always making jokes in front of the camera.

是啊，那时候的我活泼开朗，充满热情，绝对是成长过程中的样子。

And yeah, really loud and bubbly and very excitable, definitely growing up.

所以我小时候并不害羞，比如在表弟生日会上，大家都在唱生日歌，而我却会抢着吹蜡烛，把表弟或妹妹气哭。

So I wasn't shy when I was young, I would be the one that it'll be my cousin's birthday, everyone's like singing happy birthday to them, and I'd be the one blowing out the candles and making my cousin or my sister cry.

可以说我小时候确实很享受成为焦点。

So I definitely loved a bit of attention growing up, for sure.

不过说实话，这些就是我的童年记忆了。

But yeah, I think honestly, those are my memories.

但随着年龄增长，我渐渐忘记了那个自己，因为开始过度在意某些事情，他人对我的看法逐渐影响了我对自己的认知。

But then as I grew up, I kind of forgot who that person was because I think I started getting really conscious about certain things and the way people perceive you starts to penetrate through your vision of yourself.

现在回看那个小女孩，我还能记得她，但有很长一段时间，我完全无法理解10岁时的自己。

And that person is someone now that I look back, I remember her, but for a long time I was like, I couldn't have related to 10 year old me.

哇，这真有意思。

Wow, that's so interesting.

你认为这种害羞是在女孩间的动态关系开始变化时产生的吗？

You think that shyness kicked in when the dynamics of girlhood started to change?

是的，绝对是。

Yeah, definitely.

要知道，在我成长过程中，无论我当时是否有着圆嘟嘟的脸颊，或者说稍微有点...嗯，按当时的标准他们可能会形容我有点超重。

When, you know, because when I was growing up, regardless of whether I was, you know, had chubby cheeks, and I was like a little bit more, well, technically, I guess, then overweight is what they would have described me as then.

但我觉得那时根本没有别人会评判我的概念，毕竟我只是个孩子，大家都觉得'她好可爱'。

But I don't think I had a concept of people judging me because I was just a kid, and everybody was like, She's so cute.

他们会捏我的脸蛋，那都是充满善意的举动。

And, you know, they'll like squeeze my cheeks, and it would be a sweet thing.

然而从可爱小孩到突然因为外貌被评判的转变过程很诡异——当你进入男女同校的环境，就会开始注意到这种微妙变化：人们被谁吸引、开始关注什么、打量什么。

Whereas the weird switch that you go through from being a cute little kid to being someone that then suddenly gets judged for the way that they look and, you know, going to a school where there's boys and girls, you know, you start noticing it's such a subtle thing, but you start noticing who people gravitate to, what they start looking for, what they start looking at.

所以在我毫无察觉的情况下，我想这一切都因为外部环境开始改变了，我甚至没意识到自己也在随之改变。

And so without me even realizing, I think it all sort of started shifting because of my externals, I wasn't even aware that I was shifting with it.

是啊，社会这种无形压迫让我们感到窒息和渺小的方式确实很残酷。

Yeah, the way society can kind of press in around us and squeeze us and make us feel small is hard.

你知道，我们掌握了所有关于少女时期的数据和统计，了解年轻女孩的经历，知道她们何时开始产生自我意识，以及父权制的那些有害信息何时渗透进来。一方面，我很高兴我们有证据可以努力构建更好的体系。

And you know, we've got all the data and the stats on girlhood and what young girls experience and when they get self conscious and when the sort of bad messaging of the patriarchy gets in, it's like, on the one hand, I'm so glad we have proof so we can work on building better systems.

另一方面，我只是觉得，不，这太难了。

And on the other hand, I just am like, no, it's so hard.

确实如此。

It is.

你是在年轻时就开始接触烹饪，还是后来才涉足的？

Did you start as a young person to find your way into cooking or was that something that came later?

我想，作为一个有印度背景的人，我从小就尝遍了各种美味。

Think being from an Indian background, I had so much flavor.

你知道，我从很小的时候就体验到了丰富的风味。

You know, I experienced so much flavor from such a young age.

我妈妈有一份全职工作，但每天的早餐、午餐和晚餐都雷打不动地是家里做的。

My mom had a full time job, but still every single breakfast, lunch and dinner was homemade without fail.

哇。

Wow.

这一切就像魔法一样，因为她就像个神奇女侠。

And so it was just magical because she was like a Wonder Woman.

对她来说，没有什么事情是太过分的。

Everything was just there was nothing was too much for her.

而且这一切都充满了爱与心思。

And it was done with so much love and thought.

你知道，她对端上我们餐桌的食物考虑得如此周到——色彩、活力、她使用的香料、食物的品质。

And, you know, it wasn't, there was so much thought about the food that was coming onto our plate, the colors, the vibrancy of it, the spices she was using, the quality of the food she was giving us.

所以我觉得这确实从小就提升了我的味觉，我祖母当时也是个了不起的厨师。

And so I think it really elevated my palate from a young age, my grandmother was such is and was such an incredible cook back then, too.

这某种程度上是我们文化和家庭动态的固有部分，我们早已习惯享用美食。

And so it was kind of part and parcel of our culture and our family dynamic that we were just used to having incredible food.

所以我想那时候我就对美食产生了渴望和品味。

And so I think I got a thirst and a taste for it then.

但看着妈妈如何通过食物传递爱意，这通过观察和体验成为了我的爱的语言。

But also watching my mom, like watching the way that she poured love through food, it became my love language, I think, through watching that and experiencing that.

于是我也想以同样的方式向他人分享我的爱，甚至没有意识到这对我产生了多大的影响。

And so I wanted to then share my love in that same way for other people without even realizing how that had impacted me.

现在我回想起来，才恍然大悟——我当然会爱上食物，因为我母亲用满满的爱喂养我，让我学会欣赏食物的美好。

And now I look back and I'm like, of course, of course, I fell in love with food, because my mom fed me with so much love and gave me so much to appreciate about food.

这真是太美好了。

That's so beautiful.

这让我深刻感受到，在你自己的家里，有一种非常特别的方式——对所有困扰年轻女孩的难题都有所抵抗。因为在生活的方方面面之外，你还能回到家，在食物中感受被爱，与食物建立健康的关系，并拥有亲密的家庭互动。

And it strikes me as such a really special way that in your own house, there was pushback on all of the things that are hard for young girls, because instead of it carrying through everywhere in your life, you actually got to go home and feel loved around food and have a healthy relationship with food and have a familial dynamic.

听你描述时，我几乎能感受到你在家中厨房里体验过的那种快乐。

Like when I hear you talk about it, it just, I can feel the joy that you had in your kitchen at home.

是的，绝对是这样。

Yeah, definitely.

我们总是一起用餐，我记得青少年时期时自己其实很抗拒这种安排。

We always had mealtimes together and I'm sure as a teenager, I remember being very averse.

我当时还想：为什么我就不能

I was like, why can't I just go

出去和朋友吃饭呢？

out and eat with my friends?

为什么我们不吃家常菜？

Why don't we have homemade food?

为什么我们不能叫外卖？

Why can't we have takeout?

我就想，天啊，青少年时期完全不珍惜的东西，等到年纪大了开始重视时，往往变得截然不同甚至完全相反。

And I'm like, God, the things that you really don't value when you're a teenager, And then what you start valuing when you're older, they are so different and usually the opposite.

所以，是的，这段自我剖析的旅程真的很奇妙，让我对妈妈和她的养育方式有了越来越多的感激，也明白了这些经历如何塑造了现在的我。

And so, yeah, been a really amazing journey to unpack that and also find more and more appreciation for my mom and how she raised me too, and seeing how that, you know, molded who I am now.

那么当你现在坐下来思考时，你生活中的一切都围绕着教学。

So when you sit today and everything in your world really revolves around teaching.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是怎么发生的呢？

And like, how did it happen?

向我们解释一下你现在的职业生涯是如何进入你的生活的。

Explain to us how your career now arrived on arrived in your life.

嗯，好问题。

Yeah, good question.

说实话，不是我主动选择的。

Honestly, not by my doing.

老实说，我从未有过这样的想法或梦想。当我看到电视上的人或公众人物时，这从来不是我为自己设想的道路——也许是因为我觉得自己做不到，也可能只是这不是我想要的。

I can honestly say that like it was, you know, when I never had a thought or a dream, like whenever I saw people on TV or if I even saw people in the public eye, it was never something that I envisioned for myself or maybe because I didn't think I could do it, but it was just not what I wanted.

我原本想成为医院的营养师。

I wanted to be a dietitian in a hospital.

其实我最初想当儿科医生，但成绩不够。

Well, I wanted to be a pediatrician, but I didn't get the grades for that.

和每个印度人一样，我原本想当医生。

Like every Indian, I wanted to be a doctor.

我想当医生但成绩不够，后来就想做儿科营养师。

I wanted to be a doctor, didn't get the grades, and then I wanted to be a pediatric dietitian.

所以我为此学习了相关专业。

And so I studied to do that.

我的计划本是在医院工作，在儿科诊所工作。

Like, my plans were to work in a hospital and work in pediatric clinics.

那就是我的梦想。

And that was my dream.

那一直是我对自己职业的设想。

And that's what I had always envisioned myself doing.

说实话，我现在拥有的平台——我经常提到这点——完全是因为人们对Jay产生了兴趣。

And so the platform that I have now, honestly, and I always talk about this, I'm like, that came because of people's interest in Jay.

人们开始听说他，然后就想知道他的妻子是谁。

People started hearing about him, and they were like, Oh, I wonder who his wife is.

不知怎么的，他们最终会来到我的页面——顺便说一句，最初那只是个叫'素食达达'的私人账号。

And then somehow they'd end up, you know, coming to my page, which by the way, at the beginning was a private page called Veggie Vegan Vader.

那只是我和亲友分享食谱的地方，因为我经常为他们下厨。

And it was just the place I was sharing recipes with my friends and family because I used to cook for them.

但当情况开始转变，我看到人们涌向我时，我意识到这不会成为我和Jay的粉丝页面，因为这不是我的初衷。

But then when it started shifting, and I saw that dynamic shift where people were coming to me, I was like, well, is not going to be a fan page for me and Jay, because that's not what I'm here for.

我不会把这里变成只关于他或只关于我的地方。

I'm not going to make this a place where, you know, it's just about him or just about me.

那时我不得不认真思考：我能为这个世界提供什么？

And then I had to really think about like, what is it that I can offer to the world?

我想当时我正处于一个自我探索的阶段，真正在思考自己究竟想要什么。

And I think I was going through a phase then of figuring myself out and really understanding what it is I want.

我搬到了纽约，却因为工作签证问题无法从事营养师工作。

I moved to New York, I couldn't work as a dietitian because I was not on a work visa.

我完成了所有学业后搬到纽约，却发现所学全都无法施展。

And so I did all my studies and then moved to New York where I couldn't use any of it.

于是我只能埋头继续学习。

And so I just put myself into study.

就是在那段时期，我研习阿育吠陀，参加了瑜伽教师培训。

And so that's when I was studying Ayurveda, I was doing my yoga teacher training.

那时我正努力进行大量的自我探索。

And I was doing a lot of work on trying to figure out myself.

所有这些因素综合起来，让我觉得现在不必只分享自己，而是可以分享我正在学习的一切。

And so all of that combined, I was like, now I feel like I don't have to share about me, but I can share about all the things I'm learning.

我对曾经遇到的老师们充满感激，我觉得自己是一个幸运的学生，能师从这么多伟大的导师。

And I was just so grateful for the teachers I had had, like I was, I feel like I'm such a grateful student of many great teachers.

事实上，能遇到这些老师已是莫大幸运——很多人一生都无缘结识这样的良师。

And the fact that I've been even able to have those teachers, which not many people get to have in their life, they may not come into contact with the same people that I have.

我只希望能成为一座桥梁，分享所学并传递给他人，希望这些知识能像提升我一样提升他们的生活。

I just think that I can be a bridge and share what I learn and pass it on to other people in hopes that it can elevate their life as it did mine.

但我想说的是，这一切并非我刻意规划，当人们开始关注我时，我就想：至少要给他们留下些有价值的东西，即使他们不是为我而来，也要尽力分享能留住他们的内容。

But yeah, what I'm trying to say is that it wasn't something that I planned or that came to, but I thought when people start coming to me, was like, well, I better give them something good to, you know, stay for, even if they're not coming to me for for me, at least let me try and share something that keeps them here.

嗯。

Yeah.

我们稍后回来，现在先插播一条赞助商信息。

We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

这真是太明智了，因为你知道，你的生活伴侣是公众人物，自然会有人关注，而你找到了一种赋予这种关注以意义的方式。

And that's so wise to know that because, you know, you have a life with a person who's a public person that there would be interest and to figure out a way to give it a purpose.

是的。

Yes.

你知道，我日常工作的一个副作用就是这种关注。

You know, the sort of side effect of my day job is that interest.

而我加入社交媒体，你知道，是在前往南方应对一场生态灾难的路上。

And I joined social media you know, on my way to show up in response to an ecological disaster in the South.

我想到，哦，这可以成为我谈论事业、环境和女性话题的一个目标。

I went, Oh, this can be a purpose for me to talk about cause, to talk about the environment, to talk about women.

这在某种程度上改变了我世界中的一切。

And it sort of changed, you know, everything in my world.

它让我真正能以我热衷的方式成为一名倡导者。

It allowed me to really become an advocate in the way that I'm passionate about.

从某种意义上说，这是因为我对作为个人受到关注感到非常不适。

And it in a way was because I was really uncomfortable with the attention placed on me as a person.

所以我需要想办法将这种关注转化为善用，让它从我身上流向整个世界。

So I needed to figure out how to use that attention for good that went everywhere outside of me into the world.

完全同意。

Totally.

我认为如果没有服务意识，不去思考如何为他人和世界做贡献，一切都会显得毫无意义。

And I think without the concept of service and how am I contributing to other people's lives in the world, so everything ends up feeling so meaningless.

通常当一切都停留在表面层次，或只关乎外在时，你会很快感到厌倦，对吧？

And I'm usually when everything has to do with the surface level, or if it's to do with the externals, you can get bored of it so fast, right?

如果没有目标或更深层的意图支撑，一切都会显得无聊、空洞且乏味。

Like everything feels so boring and so meaningless and dull without having a purpose or a deeper intention behind it.

我觉得当我开始学习灵修实践时，就感受到了那种深层意图。

And I think I felt that deeper intention when I started, you know, studying spiritual practices.

当我开始学习阿育吠陀时，我突然意识到生命还有如此丰富的内涵。

And when I started learning about Ayurveda, and I was like, there is so much more to life.

我感受到它正在改变我。

And I felt it changing me.

因此我认为这是我的责任，我记得我的一位老师说过，知识如果不分享就毫无用处，因为它会在你内心堆积并滋生傲慢，你会觉得自己拥有这些知识，渐渐地这些知识成为你的专属，定义着你是谁。

And so I just thought as my duty, I remember one of my teachers said, he was like, knowledge is so useless if it's not shared, because it then builds up in you and it creates ego in your heart because you think I have this knowledge, and slowly that knowledge is yours to keep and it defines who I am.

但事实上，当你把自己视为知识流淌的管道或容器时，你会发现，这真的能阻止傲慢在你体内滋长。

But actually, you see yourself as an instrument or as a vessel for knowledge to pour through you, then you can, you know, it really stops ego building up in your body.

所以这是你学到的东西，然后分享出去。

And so it is something that you've learned and you share.

这是很重要的一部分，无论是在社交媒体上，还是对你的孩子、伴侣，这就是接收知识的循环。

And that's a big part of it, whether it's on social media, whether it's to your children, whether it's to your partner, it's like, that is the cycle of receiving knowledge.

是的。

Yes.

这让我想起那句话：一旦知晓，便有了责任。

And it reminds me of that phrase, once you know, you owe.

哦，我喜欢这句话。

Oh, I love that.

我也很喜欢。

And I love it.

就像当你获得知识时，你有责任与他人分享它。

It's like when you're given knowledge, you owe it to others to share it.

这种循环往复的本质使其得以发展壮大。

And the sort of cyclical nature of that allows for it to grow.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这非常特别。

And I think that that's so special.

当你们搬家时，天啊，这是多么疯狂的事情。

When you guys moved, oh God, and what a crazy thing.

我是说，移民后发现自己多年苦读的成果在异国他乡基本无用武之地。

I mean, immigrating and then having all those years of study that you just completed essentially be useless to you in a different country.

你是如何没有因此消沉，反而决定继续学习？阿育吠陀又是如何成为你生活核心的？

How, instead of getting depressed about it, you decided to keep studying, and how did Ayurveda become core to you?

你能为可能不了解阿育吠陀的听众解释下它是什么吗？然后再告诉我们这段经历是如何发生的？

And can you tell listeners who might not know what Ayurveda is, what it is and then tell us how this happened?

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, definitely.

阿育吠陀（Ayurveda）中，'Ayur'意为生命或长寿，'Veda'意为知识。

Ayurveda means life, Veda, well life or longevity, and Veda means knowledge.

本质上，它被视为生命科学，是一项拥有5000年历史的实践。

So essentially, it's seen as the science of life, and it's a 5,000 year old practice.

这是一门完全围绕如何通过自然馈赠和深度理解个体身体需求来自然疗愈的健康科学。

It's a health science that revolves fully around how we can heal our bodies naturally through what nature provides us with and through understanding deeply what our body needs on an individual level.

首先我要说，刚到纽约时我哭了很多次。

And so I will start off by saying I cried a lot when I got to New York.

那段时间我几乎每天都要哭上好几个月，因为我对自己的处境感到迷茫，不得不重新学习和重构原本为自己规划的人生轨迹。

That was part of my I was crying pretty much every single day for a good few months because I felt really lost in where I was and what I kind of had to relearn and recreate the narrative that I had already created for myself and how my life was going to be.

彻底调整这一切，因为移居国外从来不在我的计划中。

And fix that completely because moving away was never in my plan.

我曾告诉杰伊，结婚时我唯一的要求就是房子必须离我母亲、姐姐和祖母都在三英里范围内——因为她们彼此住得都不超过三英里。

Told Jay the only thing that I want when we get married is to have a house that was within three mile radius of my mom, my sister, and my grandma because they all live within three mile radius of each other.

我们买下了那栋房子，住了整整两个月，然后就搬走了。

And we got the house, and we lived in it for a whole two months, and then we moved.

这对我来说无疑是个巨大的冲击。

So it was definitely a shock to my system.

这么说可能有点矫情，但我那时真的经常在街上边走边哭。

And so not to sound like I'm playing a violin, but I was literally walking around the streets of me all crying most of the time.

我当时就想，你知道吗？

And I was like, you know what?

这是我人生中第一次不得不独自面对一切，因为我是家里最小的孩子。

It's the first time in my life that I had to sit with myself because I'm the youngest child of my family.

所有事都有人替我打点好。

Everybody did everything for me.

他们总是在关键时刻拯救我。

I was saved by them all the time.

可以说，我身边一直围绕着这样一群人：一方面他们是极好的支持系统，但另一方面也几乎成了我的拐杖。

It was like, I was always surrounded by people who, in one sense, were amazing support system, but at the same time, were almost a crutch for me.

在那段时期，我并没有真正认清自己是谁，因为我的身份完全是由周围人的看法塑造的，我从未需要为自己做决定。

And I didn't figure out who I was during that time because it was completely- it was formed by what everybody else thought around me, and I never had to decide that for myself.

所以那是我第一次意识到，天啊，我完全不知道自己是谁，也不知道自己想要什么。

And so it was the first time I got to somewhere and I was like, oh my god, I have no idea who I am or what I want.

我连该选什么床单都不知道。

I don't know what bedsheets to pick.

我不知道该选哪种刀叉，不是因为不知道去哪里买，而是因为我不懂得如何为自己做决定。

I don't know what forks and knives to pick, not because I don't know where to get them from, but because I don't know how to make decisions for myself.

就是从那时起，我开始成长了。

And so that's when the growth started.

我想，不能永远沉浸在悲伤中。

And I thought, can't just sit in my sadness forever.

我必须转移注意力，学会面对。

Like, I have to distract myself, learn it.

你知道吗？这就是那种时刻——当你处于那种状态时，不管是上帝还是宇宙的安排，对的人总会在对的时机出现在你生命里。

You know what, was, it's one of those moments where when you feel that way, and you know, when whether it's God or the universe, or it just so happens, but the right people come into your life at the right time.

你只需要说‘好’就行。

And all you have to do is say yes.

对我来说，我的老师迪维亚就是这样的贵人，她是纽约一位了不起的阿育吠陀厨师兼教师，我遇见她时就被她所做的事情深深震撼。

And so for me, one of my teachers, Divya, she was an amazing Ayurvedic chef and teacher in New York, I met her and I was just amazed by what she was doing.

我当时就想：我能跟着你实习吗？我免费做任何事，只想学你教的所有知识。

I was like, can I just follow you around and intern with you, and I'll do everything for free and I just want to learn everything that you're teaching?

这是我第一次在学术层面接触阿育吠陀。

And so it was the first time I'd come into contact with Ayurveda in terms of study.

但当我开始学习时，我意识到从文化角度而言，我母亲和家族已实践多年——无论是用香料治疗我的咳嗽感冒，还是在我受伤时敷姜黄膏，这些元素早已融入我的生活，而我现在得以更深入地学习它。

But when I started learning about it, I realized that culturally, my mom and my family had practiced it for years because whether it was using spices when I have coughs and colds, or whether it was putting a turmeric patch on my cuts when I was, you know, I was unwell, like there was just so many aspects that were already weaved through my life, but I got to learn it at a deeper level.

从医院营养师转型后，我发觉某些医疗方式并非我理想中的健康传播形式，而接触阿育吠陀时我顿悟：这就是我一直在寻找的体系。

And so in one way, having changed from being a dietitian in a hospital, where I felt some things weren't exactly how I would have wanted to share it, to then come into contact with Ayurveda where I thought, wow, this is exactly what I've been looking for.

我尤其喜爱它因人而异的特性。

And I love the individual nature of it.

它对每个人的针对性都极强。

It's so specific to each person.

我们每个人都是独特的，怎么可能一刀切呢？

And we're also unique that how can it be one size fits all?

在我看来，这说不通，因为我们都是如此不同。

In my mind, that doesn't make sense because we're all so different.

所以我从阅读的第一章就爱上了它。

And so I fell in love with it from the first chapter that I read about it.

这太酷了。

That's so cool.

我不知道我们之前是否聊过这个，但我从小就有哮喘。

And I don't know if we've talked about this or not, but I've had asthma my whole life.

这真是件很难应对的事情。

And it's such a tough thing to deal with.

真的，你知道，它与更广泛的炎症问题相关，而很多炎症都是由食物引发的。

And really, you know, it's connected to larger issues of inflammation and so much of that can be triggered by foods.

在我27岁时，经历了一次特别严重的哮喘发作。

And when I was 27, I was in a particularly bad asthma flare.

我的一位朋友推荐我去见她合作的一位阿育吠陀医生。

And a friend of mine recommended that I go see an Ayurvedic doctor she was working with.

我完成了整整八天的阿育吠陀净化疗程，到第四天就不用再使用雾化器了，我的湿疹也痊愈了。

And I did like a full eight day Ayurvedic cleanse and was off my nebulizer by day four, my eczema had cleared up.

效果立竿见影——当我的身体获得了所需养分和自愈机会后，那些让我生病的体内毒素水平全都下降了。

Like it was so immediate that because my body was being given what it needed and also being given the chance to heal, It was like all the levels that were keeping me sick lowered in my body.

这彻底改变了我看待事物的方式。

And it really did change the way that I look at things.

我从来不是那种能严格遵循某种饮食或计划的人。

And I've never been one who's ever like, you know, quote unquote stuck to like a diet or a plan.

虽然我能坚持一段时间，但总会半途而废。不过我必须说，现在我能明显感觉到身体失衡——无论是旅行、机场餐还是其他因素影响。

I can really commit for a while and then I'm always like, but But the I will say, I can really tell when I feel out of range or the travel or the airport food or whatever is getting to me.

这始终是我可以随时回归的生活方式。

And it's always something I feel like I can go back to.

现在《Joyful》能买到了真让我兴奋，我厨房里可太需要这本书了。

And I'm just so excited that Joyful is available for purchase now because I'm like, I need more of it in my kitchen.

我不能总是依赖别人来替我做决定或告诉我该吃什么。

Like I can't always have to lean on someone else, to do it for me or to tell me what to eat.

你是如何将这一研究领域拓展的？最初你只是为亲友在线提供建议，后来如何发展成更大的公众平台？

How did you take this world of study and what you began to offer to people as a growth of what you were doing for your friends and family online that then became a bigger public platform.

你是如何意识到必须写一本书的？还是说所有关注者都在催促'快出书吧，我们太需要了'？

Like how do you get to a point where you realize you have to write a book or is it just that everyone who follows you has been like, write a book, we need it, we need it.

这个过程是怎样的？

Like what's the process here?

顺便说下，我小时候也有哮喘。

I also had asthma growing up, by the way.

真的吗？

You did?

是啊，我直到大学毕业后还在用吸入器。

Yeah, until I taking an inhaler until I was in past college.

没错，以前锻炼前我都会用。

Yeah, I would have taken it before I worked out.

我不建议任何有哮喘的听众效仿，但我已经超过十年没用过吸入器了。

And I don't recommend this to anybody who's got asthma that's listening, but I haven't had taken my inhaler for over ten years.

我是通过呼吸训练和转为纯素食后改变饮食做到的。

And I did it through breath work, through changing my diet when I turned vegan.

乳制品似乎是我的一大诱因。

That seemed to have been a big, you know, dairy seemed to have been a big trigger for me.

是啊，乳制品也是我的主要诱因。

Yeah, dairy is a big trigger for me.

即使当我因为对猫过敏而可能引发哮喘时，我也用呼吸训练和精油来避免使用吸入器。

And even when I get because I'm allergic to cats sometimes and it can bring up asthma, and I have used breath work and essential oils to like really to not have to use my inhaler.

再次声明，这不是对我个人有效的特例。

Again, I just want to say that it's not an individual thing that just works for me.

但每次我喘息时，学习如何用呼吸来扩张肺部和气道都效果显著。

But every time I get wheezing, even like learning how we can use our breath to expand our lungs and our airways is so powerful.

我只是想和你分享这个经验。

I just want to share that with you.

那么我是怎么写这本书的呢？

And then how did I come to write this book?

说实话，我从未觉得自己准备好了。

Honestly, I never felt ready.

我甚至从未想过我会写一本书。

I never even thought I would write a book.

真的吗？

Really?

我开始收到不同出版社邀约写书的请求。

I started getting approached to write books from different publishers.

我当时觉得，你知道，我一直说我不想只写一本烹饪书。

And I thought, you know, at that time, always said I never just want to write a cookbook.

我热爱烹饪书。

I love cookbooks.

但我觉得通过烹饪所学到的东西、那些实践与健康仪式，以及超越食物本身的烹饪部分——比如幕后蕴含的意识层面，是我们与食物互动如此重要的组成部分，仅仅写食谱感觉无法完全体现我所学到的一切。

But I felt like what I learned through cooking, and the practices and the wellness rituals and the parts of cooking beyond the food, like the consciousness that goes on behind the scenes is such a vital part of how we even interact with food that just doing recipes didn't feel like I was doing what I learned justice.

所以每当我和人们交谈时，我都会说，我虽然能写一本食谱，但我更想写一本融合了许多其他内容的书。

And so whenever I was speaking to people, I was like, I don't I could write a cookbook, but I also want to write something that's got a lot of other things weaved into it.

于是我开始着手写提案，我的经纪人则负责联系出版商，帮我找人协助撰写提案。

And so I went out to write a proposal, and so my, you know, agents were speaking to publishers to find someone to help me write a proposal.

结果没想到，出版商们非但没有说要帮我写提案，反而直接表示：'不，我们想买下这本书的版权'。

And anyway, it turned out that instead of them saying that they'll help me write the proposal, my publishers were like, no, we want to buy the book.

他们说：'我们想参与这本书的创作'。

We want to be part of the book.

所以在我最终答应撰写之前，我甚至没完成提案，也不知道书里具体要写什么内容。

And so I didn't even end writing the proposal or know what was going to be in the book before I ended up saying yes to writing it.

当然我知道书里会收录植物基食谱——毕竟我吃素已超过十年，而且天生就是素食者，所以食谱方向早就确定了。

And then I obviously knew that I was going to do plant based recipes because I've been plant based for over ten years now, and I was born vegetarian, so that was always going to be what the recipes were about.

但签完合同的第二天——虽然听起来有点老套——我在冥想时认真思考：'这本书到底要带给读者什么？'

But the next day after I signed my contract, was, it sounds a bit cliche, but I was sitting in my meditation, and I was really trying to think about what is it that I want this book to give to people?

以及'通过我所做的一切，我最希望让人们感受到什么？'

And what is it that I've always wanted through everything that I do for people to feel?

说实话，我脑海中浮现的第一个词就是快乐。

And honestly, the first thing that came to mind was joy.

我当时就想，无论是我为他人所做的一切——无论是亲朋好友的生活中，我的目标始终是通过食物、娱乐、搞笑逗趣等方式，为人们的生活带来某种快乐。

And I was like, everything that I have ever wanted to do, even if it's in people's lives that, you know, that I- my personal friends and family, my goal has always been to bring people some sort of joy in their life through food, through entertainment, through being funny and goofy, like whatever it is, it's always been that.

所以当我在其他任何内容之前先想出了书名后，我就明白该写些什么了，就像所有内容都有了主线。

And so after I came up with the name, which came before anything else, I was like, now I know what I can talk about, like everything has that thread.

无论是食谱、书中包含的仪式感，还是我生活中那些带给我更多快乐并帮助我保持快乐的事物，一切都慢慢融合在一起。

So whether it's the recipes, or the rituals that I've included in that everything, or all the things in my life that have brought me so much more joy and helped me maintain joy in my life, that it all just slowly came together.

所以三年后，这本书终于出版了，顺便说一下，因为花了我

So three years later, the book's out, by the way, because it took me

三年而且

three And

我创作了190道食谱，后来不得不删减到125道，这个过程非常痛苦。

I created 190 recipes, which I had to cut down to 125, which was a very sore process to try and do.

没关系。

That's okay.

它们可以放进第二本书里。

They can go in the second book.

没错，正是这样。

Yeah, exactly.

大家都这么说。

That's what everyone keeps saying.

我对此感到非常开心。

And I feel really happy about it.

完成这件事对我来说也是件大事。

It was also a big thing for me to complete something.

就像，我通常会对开始某件事充满热情，全身心投入，然后突然就完全忘记或无法完成它。

Like, I'm not, I'm someone who will be really excited about starting something and I'll be like all in and then suddenly I'll like completely forget about it or I won't be able to complete it.

所以这几乎可以说是我为自己做的一件事，甚至没考虑过出版后的结果，只是想着：哇，我居然真的完成了一件事。

And so this is almost, you know, it was something I did for myself also, where I wasn't even thinking about the results of once it came out, it was like, wow, I actually completed something.

所以对我来说，这就像是对自己的一种信心——我真的能够创造，经历整个过程并真正创造出一些东西。

So for me, it was like a sense of confidence in myself that I can actually create, go through the process and actually create something.

所以，做这件事背后有很多原因，但我很高兴它终于问世，并且能与所有想阅读的人分享。

So, there was a lot of reasons behind doing it, but I'm so happy that it's here and that I can share it with as many people as want to read it.

哦，这太棒了。

Oh, that's so cool.

当你谈论烹饪背后的体验时，你知道，我们与食物之间更深层次的关系，以及它如何让我们学会照顾自己，你是如何描述这些的？

So when you talk about the experience behind cooking, you know, the deeper sort of relationship we have to our food, to the way that it enables us to take care of ourselves, How do you write about that?

它与普通食谱有什么不同？

How is it different than just a cookbook?

你知道，听众们在听完这次对话后订购这本书时，他们会经历怎样的旅程？

You know, what will listeners when they order this book after hearing this conversation, like what will their journey be going through it with you?

是的，这本书从一天的周期开始叙述。

Yeah, so the book starts, it goes through the cycle of the day.

所以它从清晨一直讲到夜晚。

And so it goes through from bling to evening.

而且它遵循自然的节奏，最终导向阿育吠陀的理念。

And it follows the rhythm of nature in terms of well, leading to Ayurveda.

因此，无论是从清淡到午后最丰盛的一餐的食谱安排，因为当太阳升至最高点时我们的消化能力最强，那时我们的消化系统处于最佳状态。

So whether it's the recipes which go from being a lighter to the largest meals in the afternoon, because our digestion is the strongest when the sun is at its highest, that's when our digest digestifiers are the strongest.

所以你在中午安排更丰盛、更厚重、更扎实的食谱，然后逐渐过渡到晚餐时的轻食、汤品和小吃。

And so you have the bulkier, heavier, more dense recipes in the middle, and then it tails off to having the lighter meals, the soups, the lighter bites that you can have in the evening.

与此同时，我还设计了晨间仪式、午后仪式、晚间仪式，以及帮助你度过一天的呼吸练习。

And so along with that, I've done morning rituals, evening rituals, afternoon rituals, breath works that help help carry you through your day.

我通过呼吸练习来帮助自己调节一天中的情绪波动。

So I use breath work to really help navigate my emotions throughout the day.

我有时会感到非常紧张和焦虑。

I can get quite nervous and anxious.

所以无论是清晨缓解焦虑的呼吸法，午间提神的呼吸法，还是晚间放松平静的呼吸法，书中都详细介绍了这些呼吸练习。

And so whether it's a breath work in the morning to relieve your anxiety, to a breath work to energize you midday, or a breath work to relax and calm you in the evening, I've gone through those breath works in there.

书中还包含了觉知饮食和正念烹饪的内容。

There's also conscious eating and mindful cooking in there.

从选择蔬菜开始实践，到更直觉地理解身体需求——不是听别人告诉你该吃什么，而是...

The practice from picking what vegetables you're going to have to being more intuitive with your body to understand not what is this person telling you what to eat?

或者这个人网上发布了什么食谱？

Or what recipes did this person post online?

又或者，这个人说这顿饭彻底改变了他们的身材和生活？

Or, you know, this person saying this meal changed their whole body and their whole life?

不，我的身体需要什么？

No, what does my body need?

我该如何倾听身体的需求？

And how do I tune into that?

当我吃东西时，如何不仅考虑当下的感受，还要关注之后的消化状况？

How do I understand that when I'm eating something, I don't just have to think about how it's making me feel in the moment, but how is my digestion after?

它让我感觉昏沉吗？

Is it making me feel sluggish?

它让我充满活力吗？

Is it making me feel energized?

它对我的皮肤有什么影响？

How is it affecting my skin?

它如何影响我的身体？

How is it affecting my body?

因此，真正回归到我们的身体感知，我们已完全将健康的主导权交给了他人，而实际上只需花点时间观察和识别自身状况，我们就能发掘出巨大的内在力量。

And so really tuning back into our body, we've completely gave away the power of our health to other people, when actually there's so much that we can harness in ourselves just by taking a moment to observe and identify things within ourselves.

所以我谈到了这一点。

And so I talk about that.

此外还有烹饪时的实践——不仅仅是把食材扔进锅里（虽然有时因时间所迫不得不如此），而是如何通过注入意图与深层祈祷，创造出不仅能滋养身体，更能让我将祈祷、爱与关怀倾注其中，从而在超越肉体层面更深层次滋养我的食物？

And then also the practice of when you're cooking, it's not just about throwing things into a dish, which sometimes we have to because of time, but how can I put intention and deep prayer create food which just doesn't nourish my body, but that I can pour prayer and love and care into the food to be able to nourish me deeper than just my physical body?

人们有时觉得这太玄乎了。

And people sometimes feel that's so woo woo.

但我说并非如此，因为当你吃到爱你之人准备的食物时，你是能感受到的。

And I'm like, no, because when you eat food from someone that loves you, you feel it.

就像吃到我妈妈和外婆做的饭菜时，我会完全照搬她们的食谱。

Like when I eat food that my mom and my grandma make me, I will copy the recipe exactly.

但味道永远不一样，因为我们投入食物中的能量是独一无二的。

And it will never turn out the same because there is something about the energy that we pour into the food that we're creating.

所以我谈到了这一点。

And so I talk about that.

然后在进食前可以做些祈祷和冥想，因为感恩对我们的消化非常重要。

And then there's prayers and meditations you can do just before taking the food in because gratitude is such an important part to our digestion.

以放松的状态并怀着深深的感恩之心进食，会改变食物在体内的吸收和消化方式。

To actually eat in a relaxed state and with deep gratitude changes the way the food even absorbs and assimilates into our body.

因此对我来说，觉知就是如何在每个当下保持临在，包括吃饭、喝水、生活和与人相处的时刻。

And so consciousness to me is about how can I be more present in every moment, including the moments that I'm eating, drinking, living, and being around other people?

所以我基本上把所有关于这方面的认知都倾注在这本书里了。

And so I've essentially just poured everything that I know about that into this book.

这太美好了。

That's beautiful.

现在插播一条来自我们节目赞助商的消息。

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

你知道，当你谈到烹饪和进食时的能量确实能改变我们身体的感受和食物吸收时，根据你的观点，感恩真的能改善吸收吗？这是否真的能带来更好的肠道健康？

You know, when you talk about how the energy that we cook with and eat with can actually change how we feel in our bodies, how we absorb food, is it true that, to your point, like gratitude changes absorption, does that actually lead to having better gut health?

在这方面，你能和我们分享哪些有趣的事实呢？

What are some of the sort of cool facts in that regard that you can share with us?

即使你仔细想想，比如说很多人来就诊时——我以前开设肠道诊所或治疗肠易激综合征患者时——首先要问的问题之一就是：你生活中目前哪里有压力？

Even if you think about it, let's say a lot of people when they come, like when I used to have gut clinics or when I used to see people for IBS problems, one of the main things that you'd ask them is, where do you have stress in your life right now?

比如，压力源在哪里？

Like, where is the stress?

你在哪些方面感到压力山大？

Where are you stressed out?

你是否注意到压力来源与肠道状况之间的任何关联模式？

And are you noticing any patterns between where you're stressed and how your gut is?

我记得就连参加考试这样简单的事，当时紧张得不行，肠胃立刻就会开始闹别扭。

Like, I remember even simple things of when I used to go into exams, and I used to be so nervous, my thought would start playing up straight away.

已有大量研究证实焦虑与肠道健康之间的关联。

And so there's been so many studies to show the link between anxiety and our gut.

这点已经得到科学验证。

And that's been proven.

但如果我们反过来想，焦虑的对立面是什么？

But then if we reverse that and think, well, what's the opposite of feeling anxious?

他们说当你处于感恩的心态时，你无法分心，你会专注于当下，全神贯注于正在做的事情。

They say that when you're in a, you know, grateful mindset, you can't be anywhere else, like you will be present in the moment, and you'll be in what you're doing at the time.

因此，即使是那些感恩的时刻，也能暂时驱散我们感受到的焦虑、恐惧，以及脑海中萦绕的其他杂念。

And so even having those moments of gratitude kind of pushes away, even for those moments, the anxieties that we're feeling, the fear that we're feeling, all the other things that are, you know, going through our mind.

当你能够全神贯注于某件事时，比如消化过程，你其实是在提醒身体感知当下的状态。

When you are able to give something full focus, like our digestion, you kind of have to remind your body what's happening in the moment.

所以当你进食时看着食物——据说初次见到食物时，正是消化系统开始活跃的时刻——你会开始分泌唾液，舌头的酶被激活，因为你的身体已接收到食物即将到来的信号，消化液开始流动。

And so when you are eating your food, looking at it, like it says that when you first see food, that is the time that your digestion bursts out, that you start salivating, the enzymes on your tongue, they start to become alive because you've started signaling to your body that food is coming, your digestive juices start flowing.

如果我们注意力分散、心不在焉，身体甚至收不到开始消化的信号——我们东张西望忙其他事，把食物塞进嘴里，然后可能十到二十分钟，甚至一小时后身体才反应过来：哦，你刚吃了东西。

And so if we distracted, and we're all over the place, our body doesn't even get the signals it needs to start thinking about digesting, we literally are looking around doing everything else, shoving things in our mouth, and then suddenly, maybe ten fifteen twenty minutes, maybe even an hour later, our body's like, Oh, you've just eaten.

好吧，现在我才开始分泌消化液。

Okay, now let me start producing those digestive juices.

就像跑步前要穿好鞋子和外套，我们也需要让身体为即将到来的进食做好准备——但通常我们只是囫囵吞下，而身体根本没准备好。

Getting our body prepared, you would go for a run and you put your shoes on and you put your coat on and in the same way we have to prepare our body for what's coming because usually we're shoving it down and our body is ready for it.

所以这就是为什么人们说吃饭时要坐着而不是站着？

So is this why people say that it's so important to sit down when you eat instead of stand?

是的，绝对如此。

Yes, definitely.

还有重力作用，想想看，当你站立时，所有东西通过身体的速度都会快得多——就连水也会直接流下去，除非你坐着慢慢小口啜饮。

And also gravity, like if you think about it, everything travels so much faster when you're standing, even water will just flow through you if you are not sitting and sipping on it slowly.

这就是为什么你会发现，如果站着大口灌水，你会比坐着小口喝水时更快需要上厕所。

And that's why you'll notice that if you stand and gulp a lot of water down, you will need to go to the bathroom way faster than if you're sitting and sipping it.

所以部分原因是科学依据和客观事实，有相关研究支持；另一部分则只是观察身体反应并——

And so, some of it is, you know, scientific and factual, and there are studies behind it, other parts are just noticing your body and

觉察直觉信号。

realizing Intuitive.

对。

Yeah.

我昨天还在和人讨论科学依据的重要性，以及我们多么需要临床研究来验证事物。

And I think, I was speaking to someone yesterday about how important things are to be science backed and how we really need clinical studies for things.