WOIConversations – 第二季 – 第03集 – 学者实践者视角：Kamran Bagheri谈开放创新与人工智能

欢迎来到《世界开放创新对话》的下一期节目。我是Marcia Boghers，一名开放与协作创新领域的教授，今天与我一起参与对话的是：

Welcome to a next episode of the World Open Innovation Conversations. My name is Marcia Boghers. I'm a professor of open and collaborative innovation, and I'm here joined by:

大家好，我是Marisol Menendez。多年来我一直从事开放创新实践工作，可以说是个不折不扣的开放创新与生态系统构建的狂热爱好者。我们很高兴能就开放创新的各类话题展开深入探讨。Marcel，今天能与你以及在座各位朋友交流，我感到非常愉快。

Hello, my name is Marisol Menendez. I am an open innovation practitioner for many years now and an open innovation and ecosystem orchestration fan girl, I must say. And we are happy to have these conversations about different topics in-depth about open innovation. Marcel, I'm very happy to be here today with you and with all our friends here today.

和往常一样，非常荣幸。今天我们很荣幸邀请到来自伊朗的Kamran Bageri，将围绕开放创新相关话题展开探讨，并向您取经。当然，首先请您做个自我介绍让大家更了解您。邀请您的原因还在于您在开放创新领域的研究与实践经历都非常精彩，这正是我们希望在今天对话中深入学习的。不过在进入正题前，能否先请您简单介绍下自己的背景、来自哪里以及目前从事的工作？

Like always, it's a pleasure. And today we have the honor of having Kamran Bageri all the way from Iran to explore a few topics related to open innovation and to learn a little bit more from your experience. And of course, I will ask you to introduce yourself a little bit so we can get to know you a bit better. But also just to say the reason for inviting you is also that you also have a very interesting profile in terms of open innovation both from research and from practice and that's what we hope to learn a little bit more from during today's conversation. But first of all, before we delve into the details, maybe you can just introduce yourself, say a little bit about your background, where you're from and what you're currently doing.

谢谢Marcela，很荣幸参与节目。创办这个播客真是绝妙的主意，它为开放创新社群提供了分享洞见的新渠道。我收听了您与Wim的上一期节目，确实精彩纷呈。我是Kamran Kagiri，与开放创新的结缘要追溯到2004年偶然读到Emry的著作——那是最早关于开放创新的专著，出版不久后我就读到了。

Thank you Marcela, it's a pleasure to be here. I think launching this podcast is a fantastic idea. It offers the open innovation community a new opportunity actually to share, a new channel, to share insights. I listened to your previous episode with Wim and it was truly excellent. My name is Kamran Kagiri and my journey with open innovation started quite by accident when I came across Emry's book around 2004.

当时我正担任一家大型研究中心的知产部门主管，阅读时几乎每页都在点头共鸣——书中描述的并非抽象概念，而是我当时工作生活的真实写照。于是立即开始实践这些理念，向同事和管理层讲解，最终决定将首部专著译成波斯语，这也成为我与Henry的初次结缘。Henry不仅阐明了开放创新流程的重要性，更解析了知识产权战略的复杂性。对于不熟悉的朋友补充说明，Henri Richards Brewer也是知识产权领域的权威学者。

And I mean the first book on open innovation, and shortly after it was published. At the time I was the head of the IP department, intellectual property department of a big research center, and as I read, found myself nodding on every page and it was not like describing a concept, it was like explaining my living at the time. So I started to use the ideas and practice them right away and explain them for my colleagues and for other managers and eventually I decided to translate the first book into Persian language and that was my first connection with Henry. Actually And Henry, he did was not just capturing the importance of opening up the innovation process, but also explaining complexities of IP strategy. For those who don't know, Henri Richards Brewer is also a great professor in the field of intellectual property.

这个概念让我看到了前所未有的现实可能性，便立即投入实践。之后我赴意大利圣安娜高等研究院攻读博士，论文主题就是开放创新背景下的知识产权管理。如您所知，我们在BTE时期有许多共同好友，包括Piqvluga教授、Alberto de Meenin和Maran Mehta。我曾多次参加Henry在巴塞罗那举办的博士研讨会，收获颇丰。

So I saw the concept in the reality that I've never seen before, so I started applying the ideas right away. And after that I went on to do my PhD in Italy at Scuola Superie Santana. My thesis was on IP management in the open innovation context and as you know, we share many good mutual friends from those days at BTE, including Professor Piqvluga and Alberto de Meenin and Maran Mehta. I attended Henry's PhD workshops a couple of times in Barcelona and those were truly excellent. It helped me a lot.

后来我又将Henry的《开放服务创新》和《开放创新成果》两本著作译成波斯语。虽然我回到了企业界，但始终保持着与创新研究的联系，同时也在大学教授开放创新与知识产权管理课程。

And over time I also translated two more of Henri's books, the Open Service Innovation and Open Innovation Results into Persian. Even though I returned to industry, but I always remained in touch with innovation research and also I teach at the university, I teach open innovation and IP management at the university.

这对我们来说非常有趣，因为我们期待通过这期播客将学术界与实践界联系起来。当我们发现有人能同时体现这两个世界时，确实很有意思，不是吗，马塞尔？

This is very interesting for us because we are looking forward in this podcast to bring together academia and practice. When we find people who embody in one same person, both worlds, is very interesting, no, Marcel?

没错。我正想说，当然我们还想听听你目前在做什么以及它如何与开放式创新相关。但我对这个主题也相当好奇，我觉得你把那些书翻译成波斯语很特别，这意味着你可能非常了解书中的内容。这在一个细胞里看到相当令人印象深刻，所以听起来很有趣。不过我也确实很好奇你如何将理论与实践相结合这一点，这正是你正在做的，我们稍后会详细讨论。

No, exactly. And I was gonna say that, of course, we still want to hear from you what you're currently doing and how it relates to open innovation. But I am quite curious about that theme also and I think it's quite special that you have translated those books, you know, into into Persian language which means you probably know quite well what was written in them. So that's that's quite impressive to see in a cell, so that's interesting to hear. But I I am also curious indeed about this point about sort of mixing sort of theory and and practice which is effectively what you're doing and we'll talk more about it later on.

但我还好奇你是如何在这个领域游刃有余的？因为我觉得很多学术界的同事也对实践有浓厚兴趣，可能来自实践或走向实践，在非常注重实践的研究环境中工作，或者那些在行业和政策领域工作的人仍想接触文献。也许翻译这些书是连接这两个世界的一种方式，但这对每个人来说可能不是个好策略。所以我很好奇你是如何平衡这种双重职业的？你是如何尝试利用处于理论和实践交界处的优势的？

But I'm also curious how how do you how have you been sort of navigating that space because I think many of our sort of academic colleagues also have this strong interest in practice or may come from practice or go to practice, work in a very like practice oriented research context or you know, the ones who work more in industry and policy still want to engage with the literature. So maybe one way to bridge those two words is by translating those books but maybe that's not something that's a good strategy for everyone. So I'm just curious like how have you been sort of you know balancing that of dual career and how have you been trying to leverage being on that interface of let's say theory and practice?

实际上，目前我领导着一家开发了两款AI驱动的B2C平台的公司。其中一款已经商业化运营，拥有约100万用户。这是一款基于大型语言模型的波斯语语音助手。所以我生活在AI世界里进行实验和阅读，但说实话，我并没有试图平衡实践者和开放式创新研究者这两个身份，而是努力将它们联系起来。

Actually, at the moment I lead a company that has built two AI driven B2C platforms. One of them is already being commercialized and with around 1,000,000 users. It's a kind of Persian assistant, voice assistant, LLM based. So I live inside this AI worth experimenting, reading, but to be honest I'm not trying to balance these two versions of CamRun, the practitioner and open innovation researcher. I try to connect them.

我总是首先以实践者的角度看待开放式创新，但我热爱这个概念，也喜欢实际应用的挑战。我还在大学里教授了多年知识产权课程，特别是在开放式创新背景下。说实话，将两者结合起来很有挑战性，但我对此非常感兴趣，并坚持继续这样做。例如，目前我正在合著一本关于创新来源的书，这个主题既源于我在企业中观察到的实际需求，也源于我发现文献中的空白。简单来说，开放式创新告诉我们要像重视内部知识一样重视外部知识。

I always approach open innovation as a practitioner first, but I am in love with the concept and I love the challenge of applying those actually. I also spent years teaching intellectual property and especially in the context of open innovation at the university. So, it's very challenging to be honest, connect these two, but I'm very interested in doing that and I'm insisting on keeping doing that actually. For instance, at the moment I'm working on a book, I'm co authoring a book on innovation sourcing, a topic that emerged actually from real world needs, what I see and I experience in companies, but also from the gap I realized in the literature. Just to explain little bit more, open innovation tells us to take external knowledge as serious as the internal knowledge.

但说实话，外部知识来源和内部创新来源一样多。无论公司规模多大或资源多丰富，都不可能关注每一个创新来源。这是不可能的。所以我一直在寻找实用工具来帮助管理者关注最相关的来源，首先帮助他们识别来源，然后根据业务优先级排序，并帮助他们追踪那些微弱信号，将其转化为创新线索，进而转变为业务增长机会。这就是我目前的研究，旨在为实践者提供一本书，帮助他们在开放式创新背景下识别来源、确定优先级并制定获取策略。

But let's be honest, there are many, many sources of external knowledge as well as the internal sources of innovation. So no matter how big the company is or how resourceful is the company, it cannot keep an eye on every sources of innovation. It's impossible. So I was looking for practical tools to help managers to focus on those most relevant to them, helping them to prioritize, first of all to identify the sources and then to prioritize them according to its business and to help them follow those weak signals turning them to innovation leads and then to transform them into innovation growth opportunities for the business. That's the research at the moment I'm working on, to provide practitioners with a book, to help them identify the sources and prioritize them and to have a sourcing strategy in the context of open innovation.

雅克？

Jacque?

是的，我觉得非常有趣的是，即使是内部研究也在融合这一领域，将实践整合起来或创造实用工具。我想知道，当你在实践领域时，你是如何说服同事的？或者你如何帮助高层管理者、决策者们整合、实施，积极引入外部知识或将他们的知识与外界连接？你在实践中如何看待这一点？

Yeah, I was finding very interesting that even the own research is mixing this side, bringing the practice together or creating practical tools. I was wondering, when you are in the practitioner world, how do you convince your colleagues or how do you help those senior management, the decision decision makers, how to integrate, implement, to actively bring in this knowledge from outside or connect their knowledge to the outside world? How do you see it in the practice life?

正如你所知，初期确实充满挑战，因为你也是实践者，明白通常默认采取的是封闭模式，所以一开始会有更多抵触开放的心态，但会逐渐改变。让我分享一个我常用的方法，特别是如何向管理者传达这一点。我认为亨利做过最有力的事情之一，就是提供了一个对比表格，列出封闭式创新与开放式创新的前提假设。你肯定知道那个假设——封闭创新者认为最聪明的人都为我们工作，而事实是我们不可能做到这一点，最聪明的人不可能全在我们公司。所以后来我在那个表格里添加了一行，你可以看作是他的贡献。

It's quite challenging challenging at the beginning as you already know because you are also from the practitioner side and you know the usually the default approach is the closed one, so and there is a much more resistance to opening up at the beginning but gradually. But let me give you a hint of what I do, especially how I communicate this to managers. I believe one of the most powerful things that Henry did was offering a table of contrasting pre assumptions of closed versus open innovation. I'm sure you know that the pre assumptions that the smartest people work for us as the closed innovation people imagine, versus the fact that it's impossible to do that and the smartest people can't be all in our company. So over the time I added one row to that table, you can consider his contributions.

具体是这样：在封闭式创新中，我们的梦想受限于预算或资源。但在开放式创新中，天空才是极限。只要我们设计出一个让人愿意参与并按照我们方式行动的大格局。但有个转折——大多数公司通常更习惯做玩家，而不愿成为游戏设计者，这其实是项具有挑战性的工作。所以我在工作坊中会让管理者从个人层面反思这一点，这就是我的做法。

It goes like this: In close innovation, we dream as far as our budgets allow or as our resources allow it. But in open innovation, sky is the limit. As long as we can design a big game so that people want to play in and they're willing to play your way. But there is a twist, usually most companies are comfortable being players and they don't want to become game designers actually, it's a challenging job. So I ask managers in workshops to reflect on this on a personal level, that's what I do.

这个比喻在我的高管工作坊中效果很好，在董事会中也确实如此。让我分享一个我使用的练习：我让管理者写下他们的一两个短期经济目标，展望未来一两年。然后让他们写下这些目标背后的前提假设。通常浮现的是，这些目标基于封闭思维，受限于他们当下掌控和拥有的资源。

This metaphor has worked great in my executive workshops, also at boardrooms actually. Let me give you an exercise I use. I ask managers to write down one or two of their short term economic goals, looking one or two years ahead. Then I ask them to write down the pre assumptions, underlying pre assumptions behind those goals. What usually immerse is that these goals are based on the closed mindset, so constrained by the resources that they control and they own at the moment.

接着我邀请他们用开放式创新思维重新审视这些目标，在工作坊中推动他们将其视为游戏设计练习——如果这些目标源自开放式创新思维，受限于我们拥有的资源但着眼于能产生的影响力，它们会是什么样子？这种简单的视角转换能产生巨大影响。我帮助管理者不仅理解这个概念，更要内化它。这种个人层面的练习对我帮助很大。玛丽索尔，我也想了解你的经验。

Then I invite them to revisit those goals using the open innovation mindset and trying them and pushing them in the workshops to consider it as a game design exercise and what could these goals look like if they come from an open innovation mindset, constrained by the resources we own but on the influence it can make. So this simple shift in perspective has a huge impact. So I help managers not just to understand the concept but to internalize it. This personal level exercise helped me a lot. I don't know Marisol, I also want to know about your experience.

在实践中传达这个理念是项具有挑战性的工作。

It's a challenging job to communicate this in practice.

是的，这与我们尝试开展的工作有很多共鸣。有时我也会和马塞尔讨论，我们在推进管理中的人性层面，以及我们在工作中持有的视角，帮助他们改变并运用思维模式，调整我们围绕公司创新梦想的定位心态。这很有趣，同时也向他们展示这可以与财务目标紧密相连——这不仅仅是跳入虚空或冒险，而应该甚至与战略核心和财务目标紧密相连。他们可能没有这种...怎么说呢...那种在没有任何安全网的情况下进行创新时可能产生的恐惧。马塞尔，你如何看待这个视角？

Yeah, it resonates a lot with the kind of work that we try to do, and sometimes I discuss this with Marcel as well, that we are bringing forward the human level of the management and the perspectives that we all have while doing our job and help helping them to change and play with the mindset and positioning mindsets that we have around the way we dream innovation in the company. It's interesting and also show them that it can be very connected to the financial goals, that this is not just jumping into the emptiness or the adventure, but it can it should be even, you know, very connected to the core of the strategy and to to the financial goals. They don't have this maybe how do you say that the the dread that they might have of doing innovation without any net, not saving net. I don't know how do you see this perspective, Marcel.

是的。我一直在思考或者说听到的内容非常有趣，我认为听取这种不同的视角也很重要。我已经在尝试将其归类到各种理论框架中，也就是我脑海中的学术框架。卡梅伦，在你描述的内容中，我认为其中一个方面是你提到的思维方式，这确实是个体层面的，几乎像是一种认知上的文化元素。这与组织层面的因素形成对比，比如如何组织这些流程，甚至组织结构本身。当然，从封闭与开放的角度来看，考虑这些流程如何不同也很重要，它们可能会相互阻碍，也可能相互促进。所以这也是我想反问你的问题：根据你的经验，这主要是思维方式的问题吗？你在那些研讨会等场合的实践中看到了什么？

Yeah. What I'm sort of wondering or hearing, so it's very interesting and I think also it's good to hear this sort of different perspective. So I was already putting it of course into types of frameworks, the academic frameworks that I have in my mind and I think one of the aspects in what you described, Cameron, is also that I mean you mentioned mindset, so that's indeed I think an individual level, almost like a cognitive, you know, cultural element and this is something we may contrast more to organizational factors like okay, how do you organize these processes, know, what's even the organizational structure of course also from the closed versus open type of angle it's important to consider how these processes differ, it may you know kind of help, you know, block each other or they may actually reinforce each other. So that was also my my question back to you like, is is it mostly a matter of mindset in your experience? Also, have you been working, you know, in those workshops and so on and what you see in practice?

主要是思维方式问题，还是战略问题，抑或是组织问题？根据你的经验，使开放创新或这类转型成功的关键要素有哪些？

Is it mainly mindset or is it strategy or is it organization? What are some of the key, in your experience, the key elements of you know making open innovation or that sort of transition successful?

马塞尔，根据我的经验，特别是在我工作和生活的环境中，这里的背景相比其他国家尤其是欧洲更为封闭。因此思维方式实际上是个很好的起点，因为大多数人在商业实践中可以说持有更封闭的思维方式。由于许多实际情况需要这种封闭思维，我能理解这一点。但当涉及到创新时，我们希望他们能利用开放创新战略带来的机遇。但由于这个背景，我通常从思维方式入手。也许在其他背景下这不是个好方法。

That's my experience Marcel, especially in the context that I work, that I live in here. Here the context is more closed comparing with other countries, especially in Europe. So the mindset is a good starting point actually, because most of the people have a more closed mindset, I can say, when it comes to the business practice I mean. Since many realities on the ground requires that kind of closed mindset and I understand that, but when it comes to innovation, we want them to use the opportunities provided by having the open innovation as a strategy, but I usually start with the mindset part because of the context actually. Maybe in another context that's not a good solution.

是的。实际上我想借此指出一个研究机会。正如你所说，不同的实践、不同的人、不同的组织可以说生活在不同的背景中。当然，身处伊朗这样的国家与其他国家不同，但在欧洲内部我们也能看到差异，比如不同欧洲国家之间或与其他大洲的对比，对吧？在几个研究项目中我们也讨论过信任水平如何影响为开放创新和生态系统建立的治理模式等问题。

Yeah. So I I mean, I actually wanna use it to signal a bit of a, like, maybe even a research opportunity. Yeah? Because as you say, I think different different practices, different people, different organizations are sort of living in different types of contexts let's say and of course you know being in a country like Iran is different than being in other countries but also here in Europe we of course also see differences like within different across different European countries or with other continents and so on, right? And in several research project we talk about that also like how the level of trust influence, know, this kind of governance you can establish for open innovation and ecosystem and all those things.

但我认为有趣的机会在于，我们可以从这些不同背景中学到很多东西。多年来我看到许多研究都在探讨另一个行业、另一个国家（包括伊朗）的开放创新情况。但被错过的机会是，这些不同背景实际上能揭示很多我们对开放创新的假设，包括学术视角的假设。这正是我想指出的：特别是在这类不同背景下，我们可以深入了解开放创新的某些方面在什么条件下运作良好或不佳。我认为这能很大程度上说明我们感兴趣的那些机制的理论基础假设。

But what I think the interesting opportunity, where an interesting opportunity lies is that there's a lot to learn from those different contexts, right? So and I've seen over the years also many studies that say, well, okay, let's look at open innovation in in another sector, in another country, including also in in Iran for example. But then then the missed opportunity is that it can, you know, the different context can say a lot about actually the, let's say, assumptions we make about open innovation also from an academic perspective. So that's just the kind of thing I wanted to signal, know, that I think especially in those kinds of different contexts we can learn a lot about, okay, under which conditions do certain aspects of open innovation work well or less well. And I think it can say a lot about the assumptions and the theoretical sort of underpinnings of all those mechanisms that we are interested in.

所以我认为这正是你所经历的，当然你也曾在这些所谓的'不同背景'中工作和生活过。我想这基本上就是你的体验，对吧？

So I think that's what you are living of course, and you have also of course you know worked and lived in different of those quote unquote contexts. So and I think that is basically what you are experiencing, right?

完全正确，完全正确。

Exactly, exactly.

是的，现在

Yeah. Now and

抱歉，马塞尔，我想补充一点，因为我们刚才谈到了人的维度，哦，还有思维方式以及我们如何应用它。这时文化的影响力就变得尤为显著，你甚至可以在同一城市或同一国家内比较不同行业间的文化差异。这种在生态系统层面交织连接不同文化的能力也很重要——不是通过强制文化互补，而是要在国家间或各类合作中实现这种融合。学术界与产业界之间同样存在这种现象，不是吗？

I'm sorry, Marcel, just to add that this, because we were talking about the human dimension, oh, and the mindsets and how we're applying that. And so that's when the culture comes in such so strongly, you know, and that you can even compare the differences of culture, comparing sectors even in the same city or in the same country, you know, and having this capacity to intertwine and connect different cultures that happens at the ecosystem level as well. Not by creating complementarize among these cultures is important and even scale it between countries or between different kind of collaborations. It even happens between academia and industry. No?

嗯，所以我觉得思考这种思维方式以及文化如何促使其运作非常非常有趣。

Mhmm. So I very, I I find it very, very interesting to think about this mindset and how does a culture play for to make it work.

我想引入另一个角度，尤其是考虑到你也在人工智能领域工作。这当然是个非常热门的话题，无论在研究还是实践中都是如此。你已经简要介绍了公司在不同平台上的实践，所以我认为这本身就是一个引人入胜的问题——人工智能在开放式创新实践中扮演的角色。我很想听听你的见解：你认为AI在多大程度上促进了开放式创新？它是起到了阻碍作用还是替代作用？

I do want to bring in another aspect here, especially as you are working also in the AI context. So I think that's of course a very hot topic, let's say as well, both in research and practice. So you explained already a little bit on what you are doing in your company with those different platforms and so on. So I think that's also kind of a fascinating question in itself, sort of the role of AI in some of those open innovation practices. So I would be really curious to hear more from you kind of where do you see this sort of influence, to what extent is AI maybe enabling open innovation or is it preventing or replacing it?

能否根据你的经验对此进一步阐述？

Could you reflect a little bit more on that based on your experience?

是的，感谢你提出这一点，马歇尔。我认为这是当前的重要议题。实际上我看到了深远的影响——就像亨利在2000年代初意识到的那样，当根本性变革发生时，旧的封闭式创新模式已不再适用，开放式创新不再是奢侈品。

Yeah, thank you for pointing to this, Marshall. It's a big issue I guess at the moment, it's a big topic. I see a profound effect here actually. I think of it this way, what Henry did back in early 2000s was recognizing that something fundamental has shifted. The old closed model of innovation could no longer work and open innovation wasn't a luxury.

它变成了必需品。我相信我们正在经历一场由AI驱动的更深刻的变革，这带来了紧迫的新问题。如果开放式创新想要保持相关性，就必须进化以应对这些挑战。否则，我认为它可能会被全新概念完全取代。

It became essential. Believe we are experiencing a transformation of much greater depth driven by AI at the moment. And it raises urgent new questions. If opening innovation wants to stay relevant, it has to evolve to answer them. If not, I believe it risks being replaced by new concepts altogether.

这为研究开辟了一个广阔领域，我代表研究部门发言，同时我也认为关于开放式创新的最新研究应当利用新兴的知识产权研究、人工智能研究工具来提升效率并提供及时洞察。让我举个例子。在这个由AI驱动的新时代，我们很可能会看到少数主导者掌握基础模型，而众多其他公司在此基础上进行开发。这些模型所有者将在这个领域拥有前所未有的不对称权力，特别是如果他们选择向用户层靠拢的话。

This opens up a great field for research, I'm speaking for the research part of and I also believe that the newest studies on open innovation should leverage emerging IP research, AI research tools to enhance efficiency and deliver timely insights. Let me give you one example. This new AI driven era. We are likely to see a few dominant players owning the foundational models and many other companies building on top of them. These model owners will have unprecedented asymmetric power in this domain, especially if they choose to move closer to the user layer.

这将威胁全球几乎所有行业中无数小型企业的生存，政府可能无法像过去那样有效监管它们，而且它们的权力已超越国界。那么在这种背景下，创新究竟意味着什么？我认为我们正在基础层面上为创新概念寻找新的定义。知识产权和IT管理将何去何从？在这样的环境下，创新生态系统会呈现怎样的面貌？

That threatens the survival of countless smaller businesses in almost all sectors all around the world and governments may not be able to regulate them as effectively as before and their power extends beyond national borders. So in this context, what does innovation really mean? I think we're finding new meanings for the concept of innovation at the basic level. And what happens to intellectual property rights and IT management in general. What does an innovation ecosystem look like in this context?

我们是否正在进入封闭式创新的新时代？或许吧。根据我的所见所历，我们可以看到一种新型的封闭式创新正在这个概念周围形成。或者换个角度看，开放式创新在2000年代初某种程度上是对产品和技术生命周期缩短的回应。而在AI的影响下，这些生命周期已变得极其短暂。

And are we entering a new era of closed innovation? Maybe. What I see and what I experienced first hand is that we can see a new kind of closed innovation growing around this concept. Or just to give you another perspective, open innovation was in part a response to shrinking product and technology life cycle back in the early 2000s. But now under the influence of AI, those life cycles had become radically shorter.

AI代理和超级代理能让成熟的数字业务在一夜之间过时——只需看看网络搜索量的急剧下滑就知道。过去几个月里，数字广告机构正以惊人速度被颠覆。因此问题就变成：开放式创新概念必须如何演变，才能在这种不可预测且快速变化的环境中保持相关性和实用性？这些问题并非抽象议题，它们正摆在台面上，需要深入、快速且具有适应性的研究来解答——我认为这既令人振奋也敲响了警钟。

AI agents and super agents can render mature digital businesses obsolete overnight and actually just look at the sharp decline in web search volume. Over the last couple of months, digital ad agencies are being disrupted at an incredible pace. So the question becomes, how must the open innovation concept evolve in order to remain relevant and useful in such an unpredictable and fast moving context? And these are not abstract questions. These are on the table at the moment and they demand deep, fast and adaptive research to answer them actually and I think it's both exciting and warning for this.

就个人而言，我很激动——非常激动能参与这个我称之为'开放式创新新篇章'的下一阶段，无论是作为实践者还是研究者。但这确实为研究开辟了广阔天地，不过我认为我们需要更高效、更迅捷的研究方式来应对这些问题。

Personally I am excited, very excited to be part of that next chapter, I call it next chapter open innovation, both from the practitioner, as a practitioner and as a researcher, but I think it opens up a great field for research, but I guess we need a more efficient, much more efficient research to address these questions.

是的，这些都是非常好的问题。虽然别指望我们能在播客剩余时间里全部解答，但正如你所说，这确实构成了完整的研究议程和实践议程。我同意其中许多观察，也切身感受到全球范围内确实存在某种'世界正在封闭而非开放'的动态，这当然影响着我们所经历的创新和组织流程。某种程度上这很有趣，但同时也挑战了我们的一些基本假设——正如我们之前讨论的——承认并思考这点很重要。

Yeah, I think these are very good questions. I hope you don't expect we're going to answer all of them in the remaining time here at the podcast, but it's a whole agenda for, as you say, both the research agenda and like, you know, more a practice agenda if I can call it like that. And I agree with many of those observations and also of course share the dynamics we experience in the world where you may indeed claim world is closing rather than opening in a sense which also affects many of the, you know, innovation and organizational processes as we experience them of course. So in a way it's interesting so to say but yeah, it's also a little bit, yeah, challenges some of our assumptions like we were also saying before. So I think that is important to acknowledge and to consider.

同时我也从你的话语中感受到某种乐观，而我自己也倾向于乐观，因为其中确实存在机遇。开放式创新这个概念本身并不只是关于完全开放或放弃一切——这是我发现常见的误解——它更关乎找到恰当的平衡：开放什么、封闭什么，如何应对变化的世界。在你的国情、行业背景下，开放程度可能各不相同，而这正是需要为组织寻找合适模式、调整思维方式、文化和架构的地方。这就是我对你观点的理解。

At the same time I also sense some optimism in your words and I think I tend to an optimistic person because I also think that, I mean there opportunities, right? So I think even a concept like open innovation in itself is not just about opening up and giving everything away or something like that, right? Is actually quite a common misunderstanding in my experience but it's rather about finding the right balance there like what do you open, what do you close, how the world is changing, know maybe in your context, in your country, in your sector, you know, it's more or less open than other ones. And I think this is exactly where you need to fit, you know, find your, the right model there for your organization and adjust the mindset and the culture and the organization and all those things. So that's a little bit my interpretation of your comment there.

我还认为这提出了另一个重要元素，即承认事物并非一成不变。正如你刚才所说，Marcel，现在它们可以改变，有时你可能更倾向于开放的一面或生态系统的某些层面。我认为即使在组织内部，我们在这二十年里也学到，当我们谈论开放式创新时，并非所有东西都开放、免费或公开。明白吗？因此找到适当的平衡点，我认为这是我们正在从事的艺术的一部分，也是技术角色的一部分——你将其作为挑战之一提出的问题，在我看来，提出一个好问题往往比得到一个好答案更有趣。

And I also think it brings forward another important element, is the acknowledgement that things are not fixed. Now they can change, as you were saying now, Marcel, sometimes you can be more in the open side or certain layers of the ecosystem. I think even within organizations, we we've learned in these twenty years that when we say open innovation, it's not everything open, everything free, or and everything public. You know? So finding the right degree of doing so, I think it's part of the art of what we are doing and the role of technology, which you also bring forward as one of the challenges, one of the questions that I think it's always more interesting to have a good question than a good answer.

不是吗？所以持有这个持续的问题意味着：技术在这里扮演什么角色？如果技术正在这项特定技能上突飞猛进，我们人类现在需要展现什么技能来推动发展？因此我认为，作为管理者、研究者以及试图跨界传递知识的人，这些都是值得提出的好问题。

No? So having this question, continuous question, mean, what's the role of technology here? And if technology is excelling in this specific skill, what's our human skill to to to put forward now in order to to move around? So I think those are the good questions to be asking as managers, as researchers, and as people who are trying to bring forward knowledge from other from beyond the borders.

我的意思是，我需要一些时间来消化这些内容，因为讨论涉及的范围很广。现在我的脑子有点转不过来了。但我觉得非常有意思的是...是的...听你分享关于学术界与实践结合的见解，你提到的不是平衡而是整合或连接它们的方式，这本身就是一个很好的观点。

So I mean, I need some time to reflect on this because I think we covered quite a lot of ground. So my head is is spinning a little bit. But I think it was really interesting to yeah. To hear your experience and your reflection about we start a little bit with academia and practice, how you kind of I don't know what did you say, not balance, but rather I think integrate or link them. I think that was a good point in itself of course.

然后我们讨论了整个开放式创新体系的多重层面——从思维模式到组织架构，再到整个生态系统、行业乃至国家等。虽然内容很多，但听你分享经验非常有趣。也许我最后一个问题有点...你可能已经部分思考过这个问题了，但我很好奇你对未来的预期。你提到了一些我们面临的挑战，但让我把问题具体化到你个人：比如你合作企业的下一步计划是什么？或者你是否会重返研究领域？你打算如何着手解决这些挑战并回答你自己提出的问题？

And then we discussed many different layers of the whole, let's say open innovation system from mindset to organizations to the entire ecosystem, sectors, countries and so on. Now, so it doesn't, I think it's very interesting to hear about your experience and maybe my final question is a little bit, maybe you reflected to some extent on it already, but I'd be curious to hear about your expectations for the future. So you said a little bit about of course some of the challenges that we face, but maybe let me make the question more specific sort of for yourself. Like what are some of the next steps in the companies you work with or maybe you dive back into the research, I don't know. So what are some next steps for you to address some of these challenges and start to answer some of the questions that you also raised yourself?

这确实是一项艰巨的任务。在我的业务中，我正在打造一个AI语音助手平台——波斯语语音助手。实际上我正在构建的是一个代理系统，让用户能够通过高级语音指令完成大量日常事务。采用开放式创新思维，我们不会提供所有这些服务本身，而是在每个层级构建服务提供商生态系统，尝试运用新一代基于元素的AI技术，整合这些原本分散的数字服务（每个曾经都是独立应用），为终端用户提供无缝体验。这是一项极具挑战性的开放式创新工作——要让这些目前拥有独立应用的服务商加入合作，融入生态系统。这是我目前日常面临的挑战，而我非常热爱这份工作。现在我正在构建这个生态系统的最小可行版本，直接运用开放式创新文献中的知识，这让我乐在其中。

It's a tough job to do, in my own business, the platform that I'm making, AI voice assistant, Persian voice assistant, so what I'm building actually is an agentic system that enables users to do a lot of day to day jobs, to actually do them using the voice command at a very high level, with giving orders at a very high level. So by doing so, using the open innovation mindset, we're not going to provide each and every of these services, but I'm building an ecosystem of service providers on each level and trying to, using the power of AI, the new generation of element based AI, to trying to integrate all these different services, digital services, that each of them used to be a different application, and providing a seamless experience for the end user and that's a very challenging open innovation job, trying to onboard all these players who actually own their own application at the moment and they're providing their own services, but getting into a deal and kind of collaboration and onboarding them on this ecosystem. It's my day to day challenge at the moment, that I like it very, very much. So right now I am building this ecosystem and at the moment I'm building this minimum viable ecosystem actually for this platform and I enjoy it a lot, practicing what I learned in the literature of Open Innovation in my business directly, using it directly.

我非常喜欢'最小可行生态系统'这个概念，将其作为未来发展的种子。这个理念让我深受启发。

I like this concept of minimum viable ecosystem and having as a seed for the future growth. I like it very much.

Mitu，我认为这个话题很适合作为本期节目的结束。当然，听你分享经历、当前工作以及面临的挑战非常有趣，更高兴听到你充满激情地应对这些挑战，期待未来听到更多进展。你同时勾勒出了一个完整的研究议程——里面众多问题足以支撑多个博士项目，这总是令人欣喜。但我想特别强调的是，你在研究与实践中架起的桥梁，基于你的经验能够既回顾过去又展望未来进行反思，这实在难能可贵。总之，让我为此感谢你。

Now, Mitu, I think this is also a good note to end on for this episode here. I think, well, of course very interesting to hear about your experiences and your current activities and the challenges that you face and very nice to hear that you're excited to tackle them and of course look forward to hearing more about that in the future. I think you also at the same time sketched the whole research agenda with many different questions that we can fill a couple of PhD project with, so that's always nice. But again I think especially also on that interface between research and practice and this is of course nice based on your experience that you're able to reflect on those things both looking back and looking forward. So yeah, I mean, let me thank you for that anyway.

梅塞尔，你想说什么？

And Maisel, you wanted to?

是的，我想问卡姆登，作为总结，你能否分别给学术界和实践者各提一条建议或行动号召。

Yeah, I wanted to ask, Camden, if maybe for a closure you can give an advice or call to action, one for academics and one for practitioners.

这是个相当艰巨的挑战。对于实践者，我认为他们需要非常严肃地对待人工智能，将其视为一个重大的根本性变革因素。无论他们从事哪个行业或领域。因此，对开放式创新的实践者来说，就是要高度重视AI。而在研究领域，我认为应该关注开放式创新中人的因素，随着我们赋予这些AI代理体——我在各行各业每天都能看到它们——越来越多的权力。

It's a very tough challenge at the end. For practitioners, I think they need to take AI very seriously and considering it a major radical change factor actually. No matter which is the sector and which field of the industry they're working on. So, to the practitioners of open innovation is that consider AI very seriously. But on the research field, I guess considering the human side of open innovation, as we give more power to these AI agents, which I see every day across many industries and sectors.

我认为我们需要重新更加严肃地思考开放式创新中人的因素。考虑到这个新现实——我们正赋予AI代理体越来越多的权力和日益增长的自主性，我们必须重新审视人的角色。因此，我期待看到更多关于开放式创新中人类侧面的研究。

I believe we need to consider again the human side of the open innovation much more seriously, considering this new fact of giving more and more power to agents, AI agents, and the independence that they're getting every day, we need to look again at the human side. So I expect to see more research in the context of open innovation on the human side of open innovation.

非常感谢你，卡姆兰。说得非常好。

Thank you very much, Kamran. Very well put.

不客气。

You're welcome.

马塞尔，我认为今天我们进行了一场非常非常有趣的讨论，用拉丁英语同时探讨了理论与实践。

Well, Marcel, I think that we had a very, very interesting session today, talking about both practice and theory in Latin English.

和你交谈非常有趣，感谢你的参与

It was very interesting talking to and you thank you for having Well

非常感谢，也谢谢大家的聆听，我认为你提出的行动呼吁或许可以在未来的播客节目中跟进讨论。敬请期待。

thank you so much and yeah, thanks to everybody for listening and I think your call for action is maybe something we can follow-up on in future podcast episodes as well. So stay tuned.

非常感谢大家。

Thank you very much everyone.

谢谢。谢谢你，卡梅伦。感谢。

Thank you. Thank you, Cameron. Thank you.