WOIConversations – 第二季 – 第04集 – 与Henry Chesbrough探讨开放式创新实践：埃因霍温及其他地区的经验

欢迎来到《世界开放创新对话》的下一期节目。我是马塞尔·博格斯，埃因霍温理工大学开放与协作创新专业的教授。今天非常荣幸能邀请到我们的特别嘉宾亨利·切萨布鲁夫。我常说他是位无需介绍的人物，尤其在开放创新领域。

Welcome to our next episode of the World Open Innovation Conversations. My name is Marcel Boghers. I'm a professor of open and collaborative innovation at Eindhoven University of Technology. And it's a great pleasure to have our special guest today, Henri Chesbrough. I usually say a man who doesn't need any introduction, especially in the open innovation context.

不过在正式进入播客内容前，或许该让你简单介绍一下自己。

But maybe I allow you to say a few words about who you are before we kick off the actual podcast.

很乐意。马塞尔，感谢你的邀请。我目前是罗马路易斯大学开放创新与可持续发展专业的教授，同时也是加州大学伯克利分校加伍德企业创新中心的创始学术主任。所以我现在算是横跨两个阵营——伯克利和意大利。

Happy to do that. And Marcel, thank you for having me. I'm presently, a professor at Lewis University in Rome, of Open Innovation and Sustainability. And I was the founding faculty director of the Garwood Center for Corporate Innovation at UC Berkeley. So I have a foot in two camps, Berkeley and Italy, at the current time.

太棒了。特别是正在观看的观众可能会注意到，我们穿的可能不是平时上班的常规着装。对于收听的朋友们，我们简单描述下：我们现在确实是在埃因霍温，这是首先要说明的。

Wonderful. And especially for those who are watching us, they may notice we are wearing, maybe not the typical clothing that we would usually wear to work anyway. And for those who are listening, we may just briefly describe it because we are here. We are actually here in Eindhoven. So that's the first thing to say.

我们聚在这里是因为亨利昨天获得了我们大学授予的荣誉博士学位。这和我们现在的穿着有关——身上这件是本地足球俱乐部PSV埃因霍温的队服。或许该由你来解释为什么穿这个，毕竟是你先穿着这件衣服出现的，而我刚好办公室也有一件。我原本准备了完整的谈话脚本，但觉得首先该解释下这个情况。

And we are here because, Henry, you received yesterday the honorary doctorate from our university. And this actually connects to what we are wearing because this is a jersey of PSV Eindhoven, the local football or soccer club. So maybe you should explain a little bit why we are wearing this because you were the one who actually showed up in the shirt and I happened to have one here in the office. And I had a whole script prepared of what we would talk about, but I think this is maybe the first thing that we should explain.

对我来说，这是昨天典礼上最惊喜的环节之一。获得荣誉博士学位已经让我非常激动，更没想到还能以这种方式融入埃因霍温的创新生态圈。这件球衣完美体现了我们今天要讨论的、多年来伯克利与埃因霍温之间建立的联结，以及开放创新与本地区核心企业的关联。连尺码都很合适——要知道欧洲服装对很多美国人（包括我）来说都偏窄，但这件穿着非常舒适。

So to me, this was one of the delightful surprises of the ceremony yesterday. I was thrilled to be recognized with an honorary doctorate. I did not know and could not expect that I would also be able to join the team here in the Eindhoven ecosystem. So I'm really thrilled with the jersey and it really nicely captures some of the connections that we're gonna talk about today that have been formed over many years between Berkeley and Eindhoven, between Open Innovation and some of the key companies here in the region. So the jersey to me was just wonderful and even the sizing, the sizing is good because many times European clothes for many Americans, me included, they're cut too narrowly and so they fit uncomfortably but this feels great.

所以你已经准备好上场踢球了？

So so you're ready to go onto the pitch?

我已准备好成为团队的一员。

I am ready to be part of the team.

那么，为了进一步解释细节，关于我为何赠送你这件礼物以及昨天我已说明的原因，实际上包含几个组成部分。这件T恤背后有个重要故事，首先，对于观看的各位，我们可以在正面展示赞助商Brainport Eindhoven的标志。这是一种开放式创新的实践体现——通常赞助商只有一家，过去是本地区的飞利浦，字母'P'正代表它。

So but to explain a few more details about it, the reason why I presented you this gift and how I also explained it yesterday, there are actually a couple of components. There's a there's big story, I think, behind the shirt because first of all, for the ones who are watching, we can show on the front the sponsors Brainport Eindhoven. So it's a very it's a kind of an open innovation in in in action in the sense that usually it's once single sponsor. It used to be Philips from the region here. That's what a P stands for.

它曾是飞利浦体育俱乐部。但几年前，多家企业联合成立了联盟，决定共同推进此事。因此我称之为开放式创新，并更关注整个生态系统而非单个企业。嗯。

It's a Philips Sporting Club. But a few years ago, there was more of a was a basically consortium of companies who said, let's do this together. That's why I called it open innovation. And and and let's let's focus more on the ecosystem rather than on the individual companies. So Mhmm.

就其本身而言，我认为这是个有趣的范例。Brainport作为本地区的代称（稍后会详谈），正是开放式创新理念的产物。稍后我会请你进一步阐述。这些元素巧妙地呈现在T恤背面——虽然现在大家看不到，但社交媒体上有相关照片。

In itself, I think it's an interest interesting example. Plus Brainport, that's what we call the region here, we'll talk about it a little bit more, is really something that emerged from the open innovation thinking. And I'll ask you about that afterwards to explain that a little bit more. So that is nicely represented on the back. Of course, people cannot see that now, but there are pictures available on social media and so on.

实际上背面还有数字12。当然，还有你的名字Chasbro和12号。选择12号的原因是：足球比赛通常由11名球员上场，而第12人常被用来象征球迷或社区支持者。这个数字也正体现了你在建设开放式创新社区中的贡献。

There's actually number 12. Well, of course, there's your name, Chasbro, and number 12. And the reason for having number 12 is for those who don't know, in football or soccer, play with 11 players. And often we say that the twelfth player is representing the fans or the community around it. And for me also, your work on building the open innovation community is really represented through that number.

而侧边的红白省旗（你所在的北格拉班省省旗）让这件T恤尤为特别——这也是我比身上这件更喜欢它的原因。这个以热情好客和互助精神闻名的地方，恰如多年来我所认识的你，以及你对开放创新社区的意义。总之，这件T恤承载着很长的故事。当然，我很高兴你收到时感到惊喜，更欣慰你今天穿着它出现在这里。

And then on the side, and that's very special about your shirt, why I like it even more than the one I'm wearing, is the red white flag of the province we live in here, which is North Graband, which is really known for warmth and hospitality and and taking care of one another. And that also very much represented in at least how I got to know you over the years and what you have meant for the open innovation community as well. Anyway, it's a long story about the the sort of the the idea behind that that shirt. And I'm, of course, I'm happy that you were presently surprised by it and and even more happy that you showed up in it. Yes.

今天在办公室。不过或许我们可以回溯下历史，因为我认为你早期对开放式创新的思考与实践（包括最初出版那本书时），与飞利浦和Brainport的发展故事存在关联（正如我简要提到的）。能否请你谈谈开放式创新概念最初是如何形成的？或许可以结合我们所在地区的背景来阐述，当然它可能也蕴含着更广泛的意义。

In the office here today. But maybe we can go back a little bit to that history, because I think there's a connection between how you started thinking about and working with open innovation in the early years, also when you originally published that book, and also how this is connected to the story of Philips and Brainport, as I briefly referred to it. So could you reflect a little bit on the original development of that concept of open innovation? Maybe you can frame it a little bit in sort of the regional context we are in here, but then of course it has some wider implications you may reflect about as well.

是的。2003年促成《开放式创新》这本书的思考，其证据几乎全部来自美国，且主要源自硅谷。虽然那里确实是思考创新的绝佳地点，但世界很大。书籍出版后不久发生的一件事是，时任飞利浦首席技术官的里克·哈维格联系了我，邀请我到埃因霍温为一个持续数年的项目做系列讲座，这让我频繁往返该地。真正鼓舞我的是，飞利浦对这项工作的兴趣恰逢他们作为企业正经历的一些结构性变革。

Yes. The thinking that led to the book in 2003 that was Open Innovation, the evidence in that book is almost exclusively from The US and most of it from Silicon Valley. And that's a perfectly fine place to think about innovation but it's a big world out there. And so one of the things that happened shortly after the book came out is I was contacted by Rick Harvig who was at the time the chief technology officer at Philips and invited by Rick to come to Eindhoven to give a series of lectures for a program that ended up taking place over several years and brought me back frequently to do that. And what was really encouraging to me was Philip's interest in this work really coincided with some structural changes that they were going through as a corporation.

里克也承认，他们传统上非常封闭。虽然拥有深厚的内部研发能力，但始终固守自用，未能有效利用外部知识，也未能成功为其技术建立国际标准。例如在录像机领域，他们产品虽优，却败给了更擅长制定内容格式标准的日本企业。尽管飞利浦技术或许更胜一筹，但长期竞争中胜出的是日本公司。诸多因素促使飞利浦开始转型。

They had traditionally been, and Rick would have acknowledged this, they had been very closed. They had deep internal research and development capabilities but they really kept it to themselves and they really did not leverage external knowledge very effectively nor it must be said were they successful in creating international standards for their technologies very effectively. They often had in for example, in video cassette recorders, VCRs, they had very good products but they lost out to Japanese companies who did a better job of creating standards for the formatted content to be played on these devices. So even though Philips had perhaps better technology, it was the Japanese companies that really won the competition in the long run. So for a lot of reasons, Philips was changing.

当他们读到我的书时，发现其中某些概念契合其未来发展方向。对我而言，这让我看到自己在美国提出的理念能在荷兰这样的不同地区得到应用。随后数年的讨论与讲座让我收获颇丰，而后续发展更让我欣喜地看到这些理念的延伸。

And when they encountered my book, they saw some concepts that made sense to them for their own future. And for me, it was a chance to see some of the ideas that I was developing in one region, The US, being applied in a different region here in The Netherlands. So it led to several years of discussions and lectures. I learned a lot in that process and then the things that have subsequently developed, I've been thrilled to see where some of these ideas have gone.

那么从这个意义上说，你会认为这也影响了您对开放式创新概念的进一步思考吗？当然不止这一个案例对吧？多年来您如何通过全球不同案例来完善这一理论？

And so in that sense you would say that has also influenced you in how you conceptualize the notion of open innovation further or and maybe it's not just that one example, of course, right? But how over the years have you developed your thinking around it, also learning from the different examples you saw around the world?

在埃因霍温的经历让我明白，开放式创新的解释力超出了我最初的研究范围。这让我更有信心拓展该模型的应用主张。初期我谨慎避免过度宣传，因为证据有限。但通过飞利浦、帝斯曼和阿克苏诺贝尔等企业的实践，我看到这些概念能帮助他们厘清现状并找到最佳发展路径。这让我确信开放式创新具有更广泛的普适性，其全球相关性远超我最初的预期。

One of the things that I learned from Eindhoven and the region here is that open innovation had useful explanatory power outside of the original area that I did my research. And once I really saw that, it gave me more confidence to make broader claims about this model. I was careful not to oversell my model in the beginning because I knew my evidence was somewhat limited. But with the experiences at places like Philips but also I would say a company like DSM, and also Axonobel, I could see that these concepts were being useful for them to make sense of their situation and what path forward would work best for them. That gave me confidence to say open innovation has more general utility and is a more globally relevant model than I initially dared to hope.

如果我们快进到现在——在经历了这些历史背景后，今天我们讨论的是Brainport生态系统。或许有人好奇为何称其为Brainport（智慧港），我简要解释：荷兰有著名的阿姆斯特丹史基浦机场，有以巨型海港著称的鹿特丹，而这里则汇聚了知识资源——

And if you let's say then we fast forward, right? So we have that whole history behind us and now we are here talking about the Brainport ecosystem and maybe for those who are curious about why it's called Brainport, let me briefly explain in the sense that here in The Netherlands, we have, of course, a well known airport Schiphol in Amsterdam, which is then the airport, let's say. We also have Rotterdam, which is more with the very large harbor, of course, so more the seaport, let's say. And then part of this history, it's a long story, but I'll keep it short now, is also the idea that, well, here we have the knowledge.

这个智慧港。

In this The brain port.

脑港。简而言之，这就是该名称的由来。当然，除了名称之外，背后还有更多内涵。因此我想说，既然历史已成过往，您如何看待当前脑港地区的发展现状？不过实际上我提出这个问题，并非单纯讨论脑港，而是想探讨您对更广泛生态系统中思维与工作方式的总体重要性的看法——在我看来，这某种程度上可以说是开放创新的进阶阶段，需要更复杂的参与者协同合作。

The brain port. So this is in brief where that name is coming from. But of course, besides the name, there's a lot behind it. And this is why I say if we fast forward now, so with that whole history behind us, how do you currently or how do you view at the current situation in the Brainport region? But I actually asked the question, not because it's about Brainport, but how do you view the general importance of thinking and working in broader ecosystems, which from my perspective is also a little bit, let's say, the next level of open innovation where you, of course, get a more complex set of actors working together.

因此我对您的见解充满好奇。或许我们可以以脑港为例，听听您的观点。但更宏观的议题其实是：我们该如何理解生态系统、创新生态系统或区域生态系统这个概念？

So I'm curious about your reflection on that. So maybe we can use the brain board as one example, how you view it. But then the more general story really is about how can we look at this this notion of ecosystem, innovation ecosystems or regional ecosystems more generally.

《开放式创新》这本书追溯了工业创新从封闭内部模式向开放分布式模式的演变。正如我刚才提到的飞利浦案例，他们自身就经历了这样的转型。退一步看，当前趋势是越来越多实用知识正以分布式、去中心化的方式产生。埃因霍温理工大学与飞利浦比邻而居，既促进了新知识创造，也加速了知识传播。在飞利浦高科技园区——即现在的脑港物理园区，从最初单家企业1500名研究人员的格局，到如今开放园区后，已汇聚了来自超100家企业的约12000余名研究人员。

The the Open Innovation book traces the evolution of industrial innovation from this internal closed model to a more open and distributed model. As I said a moment ago with Philips, they themselves were going through such a transition So it seemed quite relevant to them. If we step back from that experience, what's happening is that more and more useful knowledge is being generated in a more distributed decentralized way. Having TU Eindhoven here next to Phillips helps to both create new knowledge but also to distribute and disseminate it more widely. Out at the Phillips high-tech campus, which is today Brainport, in the physical real estate that was there, instead of having a single company with 1,500 researchers as it was in the beginning, by opening up the campus, there are now I think 12,000 or maybe more researchers from I think more than 100 different companies.

即便从物理空间布局也能看出，知识生产与应用正覆盖更广阔的地域。这为初创企业、中小企业、埃因霍温理工大学的毕业生创造了更多机遇，为潜在创业者提供灵感示范，让他们看到可能性。那些从初创或分拆起步的机构案例，展示了他们所能实现的成就。所有这些都构建了知识生产、传播与应用的多元化路径。

So even in the physical manifestation, you can see how knowledge production and use is being spread over a much wider surface area. And that creates more opportunities for startups, for SMEs, for graduates of TU Eindhoven looking for It gives inspiration to people who want to perhaps be an entrepreneur themselves that these things are possible. And it gives examples and demonstrations of other organizations who started themselves as startups or spin offs and what they were able to do. So all of this creates many more pathways for knowledge to be produced and for knowledge to be distributed and used.

确实。您刚才提到园区既有大企业也有小企业。我们还有脑港发展局这个经济发展机构在背后推动...

Yeah. And so you mentioned, for example, the there are large firms, there are small firms. And we have Brainport Development, which is also an economic development agency. That's behind some

而且我们都穿着同款队服呢，对吧？

And of we're wearing the jerseys Exactly. Right

对我而言，这关联到生态系统中协同运作的概念。当然这其中存在不同模式，相关研究也很丰富。您对此有何见解？是否见过不同类型的案例——不仅限于本地，或许在伯克利或其他地区？

For me, that links also to this notion of orchestration within the ecosystem. So, of course, there are different models on that. There's a lot of research, obviously, going on. And if you how would you reflect on that notion? And have you maybe seen different kinds of examples, not only here, maybe back in Berkeley or other parts of the world?

编排的体现方式如何，以及这种体现对生态系统内不同类型或模式的影响是什么？你观察到了哪些现象？

How how does the manifestation of the orchestration and how that what is the impact of that within the ecosystem that are different maybe types or or patterns you have observed?

是的，这是个很好的观点。我还没谈到生态系统的部分，只是想先回应你刚才提到的内容。在《开放式创新》一书中，大部分讨论和案例都基于两个组织并肩合作创造某物的模式，这当然很重要。

Yes. It's it's a good point. I didn't get to the ecosystem part of I just want answering get your last back to that, yes. In the Open Innovation book, much of the discussion and the examples were based on two organizations working alongside each other to produce something. And that certainly was important.

但绝对正确的是，像Brainport这样的区域（硅谷是另一个例子）证明这不仅仅是双边或二元协作。而是涉及更庞大的生态系统。我十分重视用生态系统来比喻这种现象，因为在生态系统中，那些为生存、繁衍和成长而奋斗的组织，在平衡良好的生态里，其行为会增强其他生物体实现相同目标的能力。所以我的成功并非你的损失，我们都从资源库中汲取养分。

But it is absolutely true that and Brainport is a region, Silicon Valley would be another region, that demonstrates that it isn't simply bilateral or dyadic collaboration. But there is a larger ecosystem involved. And the ecosystem metaphor I take quite seriously for these phenomena because in an ecosystem, organizations that are striving to survive, to reproduce, to grow, their behaviors in a well balanced ecosystem enhance the ability of other organisms to do the same thing. So my win is not your loss. We both draw resources from the resource base.

我们为生态系统的资源库做贡献，在平衡良好的生态中，所有参与者都能获得健康积极的成长。这远超出双边协作的范畴，表明健康的创新生态系统需要强大的知识源泉，需要将知识转化为新资源的实践场所，其中部分资源会再投资于下一代知识生产。因此生态系统比喻非常贴切。这次访问让我再次意识到，这对大学及其工作也有深刻启示。

We contribute to the resource base in the ecosystem and in a well balanced ecosystem, all of that can grow and be quite healthy and positive for the participants in the ecosystem. So that I think goes well beyond a bilateral collaboration and suggests that a healthy innovation ecosystem needs strong sources that generate knowledge. It needs places where that knowledge is really put to work and converted into new resources, some of which are then reinvested in the knowledge production for the next generation. So I do think the ecosystem metaphor works well. And I'm reminded again on this visit how that also has implications for universities and the work that universities do.

我认为埃因霍温理工大学正在积极探索这方面的实践。

And I think some of what's going on here at TU Eindhoven is actively exploring that.

确实。想想我们研究小组其实也做了大量相关研究，包括大学角色、生态系统整体协调等课题。在更广泛的开放式创新社区里，这显然已成为备受关注的热点，实践中这种思维方式的日益重要就是明证。那么基于此，你认为生态系统运作面临的主要挑战有哪些？

Yes. And and indeed, think also in our own research group, have quite some research on these different topics, including on the role of university, ecosystem orchestration in general. And I see it also in the, let's say, broader open innovation community as one of the topics that has been really gained a lot of interest. Obviously, reflected by the growing importance of this way of thinking in practice as well. But then on that basis, what would you say are maybe some of the also the challenges of working in ecosystems?

既然我们理解这本质上是种正和博弈——用术语说就是互补盈余与联合价值创造。但从这个角度看，你认为生态系统协作的关键挑战体现在哪些方面？

Because we understand it's a kind of can be a positive sum game. This is the complementary surplus and then the joint value creation as we would would call it. But where do you see some of the key challenges of working in ecosystems in that sense?

再次强调，如果我们认真对待生态系统这个比喻，加州大学洛杉矶分校有位贾里德·戴蒙德教授曾研究过生态系统崩溃。以复活节岛为例，他的研究中还有多个案例显示，那些曾看似健康成长的生态系统因严重失衡而全面崩溃。这是个切实存在的危险——当生态系统中某个物种过于强势时，不仅会危及整个系统，连该物种自身也难逃厄运。这个问题绝非仅是学术兴趣那么简单。

Well again, if we take the ecosystem metaphor seriously, there was a professor at UCLA named Jared Diamond who wrote about ecosystem collapse. Looking at things like Easter Island as one example, but he has several in his research where ecosystems that at one time seemed to be healthy and growing became so imbalanced that the entire ecosystem collapsed. So that is a danger. If one organism in the ecosystem becomes too dominant, that can create problems for the whole ecosystem and even for the survival of that organism. This question is not simply of academic interest.

它蕴含着多重启示。这是其一。另一个关键问题是：生态系统的边界在哪里？哪些该纳入范畴？哪些该排除在外？

It has lots of implications. So that's one area. Another one is where does an ecosystem begin and where does it end? What's in? What's out?

如果我们不谨慎界定概念，就会变得模糊宽泛。那样不仅会削弱研究效力，还会导致工作失序。因此明确生态系统的定义至关重要。无论是研究生态系统的成功还是失败案例，只要我们能清晰定义并坚守术语规范，我相信这个领域必将收获丰硕成果。

If we aren't careful in defining what we mean, it can become very fuzzy and very general. And then I think we lose some of the traction and the work becomes less disciplined. So keeping clear on our definitions in ecosystems is good. So if you think about ecosystem failures as well as success, if we define our terms clearly and stick to it, I'm confident that there's a lot we're going to learn in this ecosystem area.

好的。我完全同意，这些见解非常深刻。随着本期播客接近尾声，我特别想了解这些思考如何回溯到您最初提出的开放式创新理论——那个以组织为中心的框架。我们探讨了生态系统的多个维度，如果要形成闭环，这对开放式创新的研究和实践会产生哪些影响？

Okay. And I agree, course, I think it's very good reflections. As we are drawing to a close also of our podcast here, I'm also then interested in how this all ties back to open innovation as you originally conceived it, which is very much an organization centered model or framework. We kind of open up to the notion of ecosystems and reflected on several aspects of that. But if we want to close that circle, how does that come back or what implications does it maybe have for open innovation research and practice?

开放式创新的研究主要完成于90年代末至21世纪初，多以美国硅谷为样本。而如今我们录制这期播客时，美国大学研究体系正面临挑战。推动上世纪90年代发展的全球化产业，正在催生更多地缘政治竞争和集团化现象。用生态系统比喻来说，资源基础本身正在发生结构性变化。由于开放式创新依赖生态系统中的资源，这些 tectonic 级别的转变必将深刻影响其运作方式。

So the research behind open innovation was done in the late 90s and early 2000s, mostly in The US, mostly in Silicon Valley. Today as we're talking on our podcast, the American University Research System is under attack. The globalization industry that was a driving force in the late 90s and early 2000s is giving rise to more geopolitical competition and clubs. So some of the resource base, to keep with the ecosystem metaphor, the resource base itself is shifting and changing. And since open innovation feeds on the resources in the ecosystem, these are tectonic shifts that are going to have strong implications for how open innovation functions.

举例来说，未来可能形成国家集团——集团内部协作紧密，但跨集团交流受阻。如果曾滋养硅谷多年的高校科研体系遭受冲击，创新中心就会向科研实力尚存的地区转移。可见创新区位很大程度上取决于资源基础，而创新应用形态则将由'后全球化时代'的格局决定。

We might, for example, instead of globalization, we might have clubs where groupings of nations do collaborate well within the club but maybe don't share well across the clubs. That could be one implication. If the university research that fed Silicon Valley so well for many years, if that gets negatively impacted, innovation is going to shift to other regions where the research base remains strong. So these are some of the, so the locus of innovation depends a lot on the resource base. The use of innovation will depend on whatever comes after globalization.

那么这又如何与更狭义层面的开放式创新概念形成呼应？您认为这是解决方案的一部分，还是意味着我们需要重新划定边界？

And then again, how does that tie back to open innovation as a more narrow concept? Is that part of the solution or do you see a shift in how we where we draw the boundaries?

我确实看到了我们划定边界的方式正在发生变化。开源等事物的持续兴起让我备受鼓舞。我认为开源确实超越了小圈子的局限。如果我们都能访问GitHub，下载最新的大型语言模型或其他技术模型的代码库，共同使用、构建并回馈社区，这将大有裨益。但开放式创新仍无法摆脱那些正在推动全球化退潮的力量。

I do see a shift in where we draw the boundaries. I am encouraged by the continued rise of things like open source. Where I think open source does transcend the clubs. If we can all go to GitHub and download repositories of our latest LLMs or other technology models and we can all use it and build on it and contribute back to it, that will help some. But open innovation is not able to escape the forces that are driving the shift away from globalization.

这在很大程度上取决于是否有实用研究成果产出。如果研究本身受到威胁，就可能导致开放式创新放缓，或使创新活跃地区从硅谷甚至美国转移出去。

And it depends greatly on useful research being generated. And if that itself is being threatened, that could cause open innovation to slow down or shift the regions in which open innovation is more pronounced away from Silicon Valley and even away from The US.

那么基于此，或许我们该结束本期播客了。您对研究者、从业者以及政策制定者有什么具体的行动建议吗？

So maybe on that basis to to end the podcast here, do you have any particular call to action for both researchers and practitioners and perhaps policymakers as well?

昨天我有机会做了简短演讲，其中一个观点是关于美国重振半导体产业的政策。在我看来，这些政策缺乏生态系统视角。它们专注于新建芯片工厂，却没有增加支持工艺进步的半导体研究资金，也没有为这些工厂培养人才队伍。若不关注支撑半导体制造的周边生态系统，我认为美国政策的成效将大打折扣。

Well, I had the opportunity to give a short address yesterday and one of my points in that address was the policies in The US to revive the semiconductor industry. In my judgment, they lack an ecosystem perspective. They focus on creating new factories to build the chips but they don't increase the funding for semiconductor research to help advance those processes. They don't contribute to workforce training and development to staff these factories. And so without paying attention to the surrounding ecosystem that supports semiconductor manufacturing, The US policies, in my judgment, are gonna be much less effective than they otherwise could have been.

换句话说，你或许能建起晶圆厂，但如果不同时培育滋养它们的生态系统，就难以实现长期可持续运营。由此可见，生态系统这个比喻至关重要——即便在重振美国半导体制造这种具体战术层面也是如此。

Or to say it differently, you might be able to build the foundries but you're not going to be able to sustain them over time if you aren't also building and nurturing the ecosystem that feeds them. So once again, the ecosystem metaphor proves to be very important even in something as tactical as how to revive semiconductor manufacturing in The United States.

确实。我的结论是：尽管我们身处充满挑战的时代，未来充满变数，但开放式创新作为框架和思维模式，既能应对全球性挑战，又能创造本地影响，或许能为世界找到包含开放性的新平衡点。

Yeah. So my conclusion from that is that we even though we do live in challenging times, and and it's, of course, interesting to see what will happen in the future. And there may be some implications for open innovation as well as a framework and as a mindset that can play a role in addressing some of those global challenges and seeing how that can also create local impact and maybe get a new equilibrium in in the world, having openness as part of the equation.

我想说的临别赠言是：在您和其他优秀学者的帮助下，我们已将开放式创新发展成活跃的学术共同体，并吸引了许多产业界参与者。当这些结构性变革发生时，全球范围内正涌现出越来越多创造性地运用开放式创新的学者和管理者。我相信作为共同体，我们终将适应变化，找到前行之路——即便当下看不清路径。通过集体协作，让不同领域的创新者各展所长，我们必将共同开辟出光明的前景。

I think my parting thought would be, with your help and that of some other wonderful scholars, we have turned open innovation into a vibrant academic community and with a number of active industry participants as well. And so as these tectonic shifts are taking place, there is alongside this a increasingly global community of scholars and managers that are using open innovation in very creative and productive ways. And I'm confident that as a community we will adapt and figure out good things to be doing going forward even if sitting here today we can't necessarily see the path. Working as a community and getting all these different people touching different parts of innovation, I think we will together find a good way forward.

正因如此，今年11月即将在毕尔巴鄂举行的世界开放创新大会将主题定为‘不确定时期的开放创新’，这绝非偶然。我认为这非常贴切，也期待届时能见到众多与会者。非常感谢您参与这次播客，再次祝贺您获得荣誉博士学位。我们期待未来能继续合作，共同应对这些挑战。

And on that note, it's such not an accident that in the World Open Innovation Conference coming up this November in Bilbao, we have as a conference theme open innovation in times of uncertainty. So I think it's very fitting and we hope to see many people there as well. Thank you very much for this podcast. Congratulations again on your honorary doctorate. And we look forward to work together, of course, in the future and addressing some of these challenges going forward.

谢谢你，马塞尔。

Thank you, Marcel.

谢谢你，亨利。感谢收听。

Thank you, Henri. Thanks for listening.