WOIConversations - 第二季 - 第06集 - 不确定时期的开放式创新：与Ann-Kristin Zobel的对话

欢迎来到世界开放创新对话。我是玛西亚·博格斯，埃因霍温理工大学开放与协作创新专业的教授。

Welcome to the World Open Innovation Conversations. My name is Marcia Boghers, and I'm a professor of open and collaborative innovation at Eindhoven University of Technology.

我是玛丽索尔·门内德斯，一位开放创新实践爱好者，现任Pilacato公司的首席执行官，致力于开放创新与生态系统协调工作。

And my name is Marisol Menendez. I'm an open innovation practitioner enthusiast. I'm CEO of Pilacato, where we work around open innovation and ecosystem orchestration.

今天我们非常高兴邀请到安克里斯汀·索霍尔，她既是我们的老友也是昔日的同事。关于这段渊源我们稍后会详谈，但此刻我们由衷欢迎你的到来，安克里斯汀。特别邀请你是因为你将成为即将在毕尔巴鄂举行的世界开放创新大会主旨演讲嘉宾之一，我们对此充满期待，也希望你能稍许透露些大会演讲内容。不过首先，请简单介绍一下你自己和当前的工作，细节部分我们可以稍后深入探讨。

And we're very happy to be joined here today by Ankristine Soholl, who is, on the one hand, I think, can say longtime friend and colleague, from back in the days. I will talk more about that history also today, but we're very happy to have you, Ankestine. And we also particularly invited you because you will be one of the keynote speakers at the upcoming World Open Innovation Conference in Bilbao. So we are already looking forward to that, and hopefully, we can say a little bit more about, what you will talk about at the conference also. But first, I wanted to give you opportunity to say a little bit more about yourself, who you are, and what you are currently working on, and then we'll delve into the details later.

太棒了。非常感谢马塞尔和玛丽索尔邀请我参加今天的播客对话，也很荣幸将作为WISC大会主旨发言人。我是安妮·克里斯汀·佐贝尔。

Yeah. Excellent. Thanks so much, Marcel and Marisol for having me here today on the podcast, on the conversations, and also as a keynote speaker at the WISC conference. I'm very delighted to have that opportunity. So yeah, my name is Anne Christine Zobel.

我现任圣加仑大学管理学副教授，学校位于风景如画的瑞士山区附近。关于我的研究后续播客中会详细讨论，但在此先简要说明：我在此任教五年，此前曾在苏黎世联邦理工学院和加州大学伯克利分校工作，最初是在马斯特里赫特大学完成学位论文与学业。

I'm an associate professor of management at the University of St. Gallen in beautiful Switzerland, close to the mountains. I think I'll have the opportunity to talk a little bit more about my research later in podcast. But maybe so far, just to mention, I've been here for about five years now with previous stops at ETH Zurich and at the University of California, Berkeley. And originally I did my dissertation and my studies at Maastricht University.

那里是美丽却平坦的荷兰——虽然林堡地区还算有些起伏，但后来我确实把生活海拔提高了不少。本质上我是个开放创新学者，很期待就此与各位深入交流。

So in beautiful, yet flat Netherlands. Still the hilly is still the hilly part, but I've still I've increased the slope since then. And I'm I'm an open innovation scholar at heart and happy to talk more with you about that.

克里斯汀，我们总想多了解些对话对象的故事。作为实践者，听众们也很好奇：你是如何决定投身开放创新研究领域的？是什么引领你走上这条学术道路的？

And Christine, we always like to learn a little bit more about the person who we are speaking today. I'm just practitioners are also curious about the audience about it. How did you end up dedicating your time to open innovation and innovation? How did you arrive to the area of study?

对。我觉得这有点机缘巧合，也有重要导师的指引。并不是说我一进入学习项目就知道会研究开放式创新。但我确实很早就知道自己想做研究。本科期间，我就已经是那个会认真阅读方法论章节和学术文章的‘怪人’，而其他人都跳过这些部分。

Right. I think it was a little bit serendipity and also guidance by important mentors. So it's not like I started, you know, my study programs and I knew it was going to be open innovation right away. But I did know quite early that I wanted to do research. So already during my bachelor's studies, was this, you know, odd person that would read the methods sections and academic articles while everyone else would skip them.

所以这已经是个征兆了，对吧？可能有些事要发生。于是本科毕业后我决定攻读研究型硕士。那是个新项目，荷兰在推出这类更侧重研究的硕士项目方面算是比较早的。

So that was already a hint, right? Something might be going on. So I decided after the bachelor's to do a master in research. So that was a new program. I think The Netherlands was quite early in introducing these types of more research oriented master programs.

后来我成为马斯特里赫特大学John Hagedoorn教授的研究助理。他原本是战略联盟领域非常杰出的资深学者。有天他来找我——或许他不知道还能让我这个研究助理做什么——他说：‘现在有个新趋势叫开放式创新，我不太清楚这是什么’。

And I ended up working as a research assistant for, a professor at Maastricht University with the name of John Hagedon. And, he is a very prominent established scholar on strategic alliances originally. And so he came to me one day, maybe he didn't know what else I could do for him in my capacity as a research assistant. But he said, hey, there's this new thing going on called open innovation. I'm not quite sure what this is about.

‘这和战略联盟有什么区别？你去研究看看吧。’那大概是在2008年左右，算是非常早期的阶段。

How is this different from strategic alliances? Why don't you go and check it out? Right. So that must have been probably around 2008 or so. So it was quite early.

我的任务就是研究这个新兴课题，弄清楚它的本质。出乎意料的是，深入探究后我发现这不仅不是战略联盟的某种变体，而是企业思考和战略布局创新方式的根本性变革。于是我着迷了，开始以此撰写硕士论文，后来论文发展成博士课题，再到博士后研究，最终成为教授职位——这就是我的故事。

So I, my task was really to look at this very early stage research that was coming up on this topic and find out what it's all about. And, you know, to my surprise, you know, when I went into it, I didn't know what to expect, but I, I really had this realization that this is very different and it's not just another nuance of strategic alliances, but it's really a fundamental change in how firms think about and strategically approach innovation. And so that's when I got hooked and I started writing my master thesis on this. And the master thesis turned into a PhD, turned into a postdoc, turned into a professorship. And here I am.

哇，真有意思。我也很早就被指派去组建一个开放式创新部门，当时根本没人知道这是什么。这种开门探索的过程让人非常兴奋。

Wow. This is so interesting. I ended up also very early, like, just assigned the task to implement an open innovation department where nobody knew what was it. So this way of opening the doors and discovering, I feel it's very exciting.

看来你也上瘾了是吧？所以你现在还在从事相关工作。

And you also got hooked. Right? You so you're still working on it as well.

是啊，完全同意。不。总的来说，我觉得这些事物如何涌现真的很有意思。确实。

Yeah. Totally. No. And I think in general, it's it's really interesting how these things emerge. Yeah.

就像你说的机缘巧合对吧？从这个意义上说，回顾这些事物如何开始、涌现并演化总是很有趣的。我想到的另一点是我们如何开始合作的，某种程度上也是机缘巧合——至少根据我的记忆是这样，不过也许你可以帮我补充细节。

Like, you call it serendipity. Right? So it's still in that sense, yeah, it's always interesting to look back at, you know, how these things, you know, started and emerge and and and evolved. And one thing that comes to my mind is also how I think we started to work together, which was also somehow serendipitous in some way, or at least, I mean, what at least comes to my memory, but you can help to refresh it maybe.

马塞尔，我这边可是非常有意为之的。

It was very intentional on my end, Marcel.

但我的意思是这其中存在偶然性，或者说我们当时在平行推进——我记得我们都曾考虑过在美国管理学会举办研讨会和工作坊。甚至可能是亨利·切萨布鲁夫意识到'你们在平行推进这些事，或许应该交流下合作可能性'。我想这就是我们最终共事的契机。

It wasn't, but my point was it was there were some kind of accidental thing or at least we were, I think, in parallel, had some ideas of running some also at the Academy of Management, you know, like a symposium and a workshop. And I think it was even Henry Chesbrough who was also the one who realized, okay. You're doing this stuff in parallel. Maybe you should talk to each other and and and see how you can collaborate on that. I I think this is sort of how we how we ended up working, together.

不过或许你可以帮我回忆下，至少从你的角度说说经过？因为了解这些事如何萌芽发展很有意思——我们当时具体做了什么，后来又发展成什么样子？

But but maybe you can refresh my memory on the on or at least how it happened from your side because it's I think it's interesting to hear a little bit more, okay, how these these things emerge. What did we do, you know, at those works of and what it grew to also?

确实。要知道在我早期研究阶段，你是我重点关注的学者之一。你比我早几年进入这个领域，属于开拓者。我们在某次会议上初次见面——可能是《研究政策》特刊会议？

Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, you were one of the scholars that I read about when I did this early stage research, You were a few years ahead of me and you were very early working on this field. So I knew your name. I think we met very early at a conference. I want to say it was the research policy special issue conference maybe.

看到你在议程名单上我很兴奋，后来不确定是我鼓起勇气搭话，还是你主动交谈——但我们确实聊了挺久。当时就觉得彼此很有话题，也很投缘。后来我们在美国管理学会做了那个如今堪称传奇的PDW研讨会，最终发展成更大规模的合作。再后来你提出用开放式创新方法联合23位学者写论文的疯狂想法——我当时确实觉得有点离谱对吧？

And so I was excited to see that you were on the on the agenda and then I don't know if I dared to talk to you or you were so kind enough to talk to me at some point, but I think we we did end up talking, for quite some time actually. And I think just just felt like we had stuff to talk about and connected well. And I think, yeah, the rest is history, right? We did the now infamous PDW at the Academy of Management, which again kind of culminated into something bigger, right? And then you had this crazy exciting idea of, you know, doing an open innovation paper, using open innovation methods in a way inviting 23 scholars to collaborate on this paper, which I did think was a bit crazy, right?

我当时就想，没错，马塞尔，咱们放手去干吧。结果进展得非常顺利，对吧？我认为这项工作如今已在领域内留下了印记。我还记得那是第二届世界开放创新大会，我们在亨利·切萨布鲁夫的领导下与乔纳森·西姆斯共同筹办的。这已经是多年前的事了，但我们一起经历了许多激动人心的时刻。

But I was like, yeah, let's go for it, Marcel. And it worked out beautifully, right? And I think it is a piece that has now, you know, kind of left its mark on field. And then I also remember that I think it was the second World Open Innovation Conference that we co organised with Jonathan Sims under Henry Chesbrough's leadership. And so, this goes back quite a few years, but we had lots of exciting things going together.

我注意到开放创新社区中不断涌现的共同要素。当然，亨利·切萨布鲁夫以非常开放创新的思维建立各种联系，比如会说‘嘿，你们俩在研究类似的东西，应该交流一下’。这种促成联结的魔力也是其中一部分。

And I can see that there are common ingredients that also rise continuously in our community of open innovation. But for, of course, Henry Cheshireau doing all these connections as well in a very open innovation y mindset, like saying, Hey, you two guys are working on similar things. You should connect. It's also part of the magic that kicks off.

噢，完全同意。他是一位出色的‘红娘’。

Oh, absolutely. He's a wonderful matchmaker.

那么克里斯汀，你现在依然致力于这项工作。你的研究领域是什么？或者说，你如何描述自己的专长或当前关注点？

So, and Christine, so today you keep, of course, working on this. What's your area of study or how can you explain what's your specialty or what are you focusing on?

确实如我之前所说，从一开始就是开放创新领域。另一个有趣的故事是，我早年刚开始研究时还对动态能力理论充满热情。当时我完全没意识到这两个领域间的深层联系——虽然我在早期开放创新研究中读过亨利·切萨布鲁夫的著作，同时硕士论文又在研究大卫·提斯提出的动态能力理论。

Yeah, so I mean, really was like I told you, open innovation from the start, right? And then maybe another interesting story here is the other passion that I had when I started with research way back when, was dynamic capabilities. And little did I know about this deeper connection between these two fields. So, of course, I had read Henry Chesbrough's work when I did this early research on open innovation. And in parallel for my master's thesis, I then worked on dynamic capabilities, which, you know, the was coined by David Tees.

后来我发现（当时完全不知情），亨利曾是大卫的学生，两人都曾在加州大学伯克利分校。这就像宇宙给我的启示——伯克利就是我该去的地方。于是我在博士期间作为交换生去了那里。

What I then found out and I really didn't know beforehand, right? As a student, it's not like, you know, all of these, you know, prestigious scholars. But what I then discovered was that Henry was a student of David and that both of them were at UC Berkeley. So it was like the universe was giving me a sign, you know, UC Berkeley, like that's the place where I have to go. And so that's what I did during my doctoral studies as an exchange student.

后来我太喜欢那里了，回国后立刻带着当时的男友（现在的丈夫）重返伯克利做了两年博士后。长话短说，我早期研究重点就是探索企业需要发展哪些能力才能实施开放创新——比如识别合适的合作伙伴、共同启动项目等。

And then I liked it so much. I went home, I grabbed what was then my boyfriend is today my husband. And I took him with me and we went to Berkeley for another two years for the postdoc. So to cut long story short, kind of my early focus was very much on looking at what types of capabilities do firms need to develop to be able to do open innovation in the first place. So identify, you know, relevant partners, start projects together.

但我也非常好奇他们如何从开放式创新中实际获取价值。对吧？无论是从创新解决方案和产品的角度，还是我曾与导师长期研究的合同或知识产权问题——这本身有点矛盾：当你开放时，希望共享所有知识，但同时作为企业又想从中获利。这些就是我最初感兴趣的内容。后来在伯克利时，我总有些困扰于自己从大学直接读到博士再到博士后的经历。

But I was also very interested how they would actually capture value from open innovation. Right? So either in terms of, you know, innovative solutions and products, but I also looked for a while with my advisor at issues like contracting or intellectual property, which is a little bit of a paradox, When you think about you open up, you want to share all of that knowledge at the same time, you're still a firm and you want to profit profit from your knowledge. So these were some of the things I was interested in initially. And then when I was in Berkeley, I think I was always a little bit bothered by the fact that I went from university to doing my PhD to doing my postdoc.

我的意思是，我真正了解企业和行业运作机制吗？感觉这方面有所欠缺，所以一直在寻找能深入研究的现象、场景或行业领域。后来偶然间发现了清洁技术和清洁能源这个让我充满热情的领域，于是全身心投入其中，重点研究能源行业的现有企业（比如公用事业公司）如何通过开放式创新与拥有清洁技术解决方案、数字技术解决方案的初创公司合作，从而彻底改变能源行业。此后我的研究范围又扩展到了其他实证领域。

I mean, I really understand anything about, you know, firms and industries and how all of that works? So I felt like that was missing and I was looking for kind of a phenomenon or a context or an industry that I would learn more about and kind of become an expert on. And so that was kind of another serendipitous development where I discovered cleantech and clean energy as kind of a context that I became really passionate about and really excited. So I dived into that and really studied how incumbents in the energy sector, for example, energy utilities, how they could use open innovation, collaborate with startups, for example, who have, you know, clean technology solutions, digital technology solutions, and how they could, via open innovation, really fundamentally transform the energy sector. And since then, I've expanded to other kind of empirical fields.

我始终密切关注着为缓解气候变化而进行的大规模转型议题，这已成为我的新激情所在。

I stayed close to this topic of, you know, big transformation in order to to mitigate climate change. And that has become kind of my new my new passion.

哇，这对我们的世界开放式创新大会来说太有意思了。

Wow. This is very interesting for our World Open Innovation Conference.

确实如此。或许你可以多谈谈在主题演讲中准备重点阐述的内容？毕竟你有充分时间深入探讨这些问题，之后还可以继续延伸。

No. It it it is. It is. And and maybe you can say a little bit more on what you think of focusing on during that keynote where you have some time to elaborate some of these issues, right, and and also to further delve into later?

好的。在进入主题演讲前，容我先为不太了解十一月会议的朋友介绍一下：我们每年都会举办世界开放式创新大会，通常在十月或十一月，今年将是第十二届——这个由亨利·切萨布鲁创立的会议已持续十一年了。作为实践者（我是Marcela de Candelini），自2015年首次参会以来，最吸引我的是它将学术界与实践界融合的理念。

Yeah. Maybe before diving into the the keynote, just for those who are not as aware about the conference on November, we will bring the World Open Innovation every year. We have around the October, the November, the World Open Innovation Conference, which has been running already for eleven years. This will be the twelfth, I think, twelfth And it was founded by Henry Chesbrough. The important thing, and I'm a practitioner, Marcela de Candelini, The thing for me as a practitioner, and I fell in love with that since 2015, I think it's the first time I went to work, was this bringing academia and practice together.

当然，我作为技术宅也喜欢钻研学术，但更重要的是让研究成果贴近实际应用。我们长期致力于此，而大会正是让这两个世界交融的绝佳平台——既有顶尖论文发表，也有最佳实践分享。今年将在毕尔巴鄂举办，而能源正是当地生态系统的关键元素，所以你的分享让我特别兴奋。

Of course, my geeky side enjoys going a little bit into academic, but I feel it's very important to get closer whatever we are learning in research. And we've been doing this for a long time, and it's a unique opportunity to have these two worlds come together with all the best papers that are presenting, but also best practices now. We will be in Bilbao. And of course, one of the important elements here in the ecosystem is energy. So that's why I was so excited about your show.

对，是的。

Right. Yes.

关于会议，我还有什么遗漏要补充的吗？

Anything I forgot to mention about the conference?

不，不，这是个很好的观点。我认为你已经涵盖了大部分内容。确实，可以说会议的核心精神之一，正如你所说，正是要架起理论与实践之间的桥梁。

No. No. It's it's it's a good point. I think you you covered most of it. So indeed, sort of part of the, let's say, the DNA of the conference is is really also to bridge these worlds of theory and practice, as you say.

但当然，安克里斯蒂娜和我一直过着这样的生活，你知道，当我们主要在学术界工作时——就像你也加入组织团队时那样，还有乔纳森，正如你提到的，某种程度上是从乔尔·韦斯特手中接过会议这部分工作，然后由我接手。当时就想，本着开放创新的精神，我不该独自操办，而是邀请其他聪明人参与，就像我们常说的那样。

But, of course, Ankristina and I, we've been sort of living that life, you know, when we also worked in particular on the academic side, like when you also joined in the organizing team and with Jonathan, as you as you mentioned, sort of also taking over from Joel West who sort of initiated that sort of part of the conference, and then I took over. Was like, okay. In the spirit of open innovation, let me not do it then by myself, but invite some other smart people out there as we like to say.

嘿，就像

Hey. Like

那段经历确实很有趣，但我们主要聚焦在学术方面。我认为这本身就很有意思，对吧？学习如何实际搭建那座桥梁。你会有自己的专业领域，因为不可能放弃所有东西，那些学术论文依然存在。但在议程中，我们尝试寻找方式，比如设置其他类型的环节，引入企业面临的挑战。

And and that was an interesting experience, but we focus very much on the academic side. And I think that in itself is quite interesting, right, to learn about, okay, how do you actually, you know, build that bridge? So you have a little bit your own silo because you cannot just let go of everything. You still have those academic papers. But then, like, in the program, we try to look for ways, you know, for other types of sessions, bringing challenges of companies.

最近我们还引入了从业者的最佳实践提案。这就是我们试图在议程中实现的目标。是的，早期我们主要致力于学术方面，打造一个精彩的学术议程。在深入讨论前，你对那段早期经历还有其他想法吗？

More recently, we brought in these best practice submissions from practitioners also. So that's what we tried to do in the in the program. And yeah. So we worked in the in those early days very much on on on the on the academic side and getting an interesting academic program there. But I do you have any other reflections on on that early experience before we delve into

什么？我认为这非常正确。自那时以来，会议形式确实发生了许多创新，我认为这非常好。同时我也认为，要创建有效连接学术界与实践界的桥梁形式确实非常困难。我的意思是真正实现这种连接。

that? Think that's I I do think that's very true. I think a lot of innovation on the conference formats happened since then, and I think that's really good. And I think it's really hard to create effective formats for bridging academia and practitioner. I mean, really bridging it.

这不仅意味着学者和实践者共处一室，而是他们能真正进行富有成效的互动并相互理解。我认为后者不会自动发生，这并不容易。我们许多同事以及你们都在思考什么样的形式能让双方都感兴趣。对此我感到非常兴奋，因为开放式创新不仅是个学术概念，更是在各行业中被高度实践且极具相关性的方法论。

That doesn't just mean that there are academics and there are practitioners and they are sitting in one room, but they're actually doing something productively and they understanding each other. And I think that later part, it doesn't happen automatically. It's not easy. And I think a lot of thoughts by various colleagues of us and by you guys have gone into that thinking about what are good formats that actually make that interesting for both sides. And so I'm also very excited about that because I think open innovation really is not just an academic concept, but it is really something that is highly practiced and highly relevant, you know, in industry across various industries, really.

确实如此。我认为两个世界确实有很多可以互相学习的地方。实践中往往走在前面，大多数情况下都是如此。或许你可以借此机会，通过你的研究视角，多谈谈你观察到的实践情况，并简要介绍一下你主题演讲中将重点探讨的内容。

Oh, definitely. I think in this sense, I mean, both worlds really have so much to learn from each other. And and I think probably practice is always ahead of it can be in most cases anyway. So, but but maybe on that note, you can also say a little bit more about what you have observed also, like, in the in the in your research in terms of which is a lens to look at practice also, obviously, and maybe highlight a few things that you you you think you will focus on in your in your keynote to give a bit of a sneak peek into that. Sure.

当然。我认为与本次会议主题'不确定时期的开放式创新'（希望我没记错）最能产生共鸣的是——很好。

Sure. So I think where or how I can really relate to the conference theme, is open innovation in times of uncertainty. I hope I got that right. Okay. Good.

这与我的研究契合点在于：近期我的开放式创新研究聚焦于组织如何运用该方法来解决所谓'棘手问题'。这些问题具有高度不确定性（与会议主题呼应），极其复杂且没有单一解决方案。

And I think the way that I look at that or how it resonates with my work is that recently, my research open innovation has really looked at how organisations can use open innovation to tackle what I or what other scholars call wicked problems. Right? So these are problems that are high in uncertainty, hence the link to the conference theme, right? They're very complex. There's no single solution.

问题和解决方案都在不断演变。存在意外后果或非线性发展——解决一个问题可能引发新问题。这种动态性正是不确定性的来源。面对这类问题，任何单一企业、机构或个体都无法独立解决。

The problem and the solutions are ever evolving. There are unintended consequences or, you know, kind of nonlinear developments where if you solve one problem, it causes another. So it's very dynamic in a sense. And again, I think this is where the uncertainty comes in. And if we look at those types of problems, really no single company can solve them alone or no single actor, no single entity can solve them alone.

这正是开放式创新的强大之处：它为我们提供了框架、概念和研究思路，来探索如何调动不同类型主体的知识和资源，协同推进这些棘手问题或重大挑战的解决——就像你与Anita McGahn、Henry等同事在合编文章中探讨的开放式创新与重大挑战的关联。

Right? And I think this is where open innovation is so powerful because it gives us, frameworks, concepts, research ideas to look at how can we mobilize knowledge, resources from very different types of actors. How can we bring that together and kind of productively progress on these wicked problems or grand challenges? Marcel, right? This, I think, another term we could use where you with other with Anita McGahn and Henry and other colleagues have also had this editorial on how open innovation links to these grand challenges.

这就是我专注的领域。我已经举了一个例子，对吧？就是能源行业，玛丽索尔，我知道你也非常清楚这是个棘手的问题。我们如何从这种线性、可预测的化石燃料能源系统，转向一个受政策、地缘政治发展等因素影响而非常复杂、不断演变且充满不确定性的系统。另外还有一点，虽然听起来可能有点书呆子气，但我现在对钢铁或水泥等行业非常兴奋，这些行业最初听起来可能不太吸引人，对吧？就像说‘哦，我搞人工智能或大科技’那样。

So this is what I focus on. I gave you one example already, right, which is the energy sector, Marisol, which I know you also understand very well that this is a wicked problem, right? Like how do we go from this linear, predictable fossil fuel based energy system to something that's very complex, evolving, uncertain given policy, geopolitical developments, etc. I think another thing, and it might sound a bit nerdy now, but I've I'm very excited now about industries like steel or cement, which perhaps initially doesn't sound very sexy, right? It's like, oh, I'm into AI or big tech.

其实水泥行业也有很多人工智能应用。但首先，我认为这些行业的产品无处不在，对吧？我们很难想象一个没有它们的社会。我们需要如此频繁地建设这么多新城市，因此需要这些材料，但它们在造成大量温室气体排放方面问题严重，并且正面临真正的创新压力。这个挑战或问题如此复杂、不确定且庞大，我认为它们无法独自应对。

Well, there's actually a lot of AI in the cement industry as well. But I think these are industries, first of all, where their products are pervasive, right? We cannot really imagine a society without them. We have to build so many new cities on such a frequent basis that we need these materials, yet they are very problematic in terms of causing a tremendous amount of greenhouse gas emissions, and they are under pressure to really innovate. And this challenge or this problem is so complex, uncertain, you know, and huge that I think they cannot do it alone.

它们正在转向开放式创新，对吧？例如，大型建材公司、水泥公司与初创企业合作开发真正革命性的技术，同时也与政策制定者和其他参与者合作解决真正重大的基础设施问题。这不是一起开发软件或做个小项目，而是真正的大型基础设施挑战。我认为，研究这些棘手问题并试图理解开放式创新如何帮助解决它们，这是让我非常兴奋的事情，我希望有机会在世界开放式创新会议上进一步探讨。

They're turning towards open innovation, right? And for instance, large building materials companies, cement companies working with startups on really radically new technologies, but also with policymakers, with other actors on really big infrastructure problems, right? So this is not, you know, working on the software together or working on a small project, but these are really large infrastructural challenges. And I think, you know, looking at these wicked problems and I'm trying to understand how open innovation can help to address them, that is something that I find really exciting that I hope I get the chance to talk more about in the bow at the World Open Innovation Conference.

这与会议主题非常相关。当然，不确定性无处不在。我想我们每天都会以某种方式接触到与不确定性及其影响相关的主题，对吧？当然，最近我和团队一直在讨论的是，最普遍且公认的棘手问题清单就是全球可持续发展目标。

It's so relevant for the topic of the conference. Of course, uncertainties everywhere. I think one way or another, every day we approach some topic related to the uncertainty and its effects. No? Of course, one thing that we've been discussing recently here with my team is the the most common and agreed upon list of of wicked problems is the global sustainability goals.

对，对吧？有趣的是，最后一个目标，我想是第17个，是‘为实现目标建立伙伴关系’，这显然就是开放式创新。

Right. Right. No? And it's interesting that the last goal, I think it's number 17, is partnerships for the goals, which is clearly open innovation.

没错。我们应该重新命名它，你不觉得吗？

Right. We should relabel it, don't you think?

而且我认为这本身就是一种复杂性。如何建立正确的合作关系。你刚才提到了动态能力。在我们推进解决这些棘手问题的过程中，如何同时获取价值并保持增长和繁荣，明白吗？

Instead and I think it's part of it's it's a complexity on its own. How to establish the right kind of collaborations. And you were talking about dynamic capabilities. How do we as we move forward in advancing towards the solution of these wicked problems, we also capture value and we keep growing and and thriving. You know?

所以这是个谜团。这在所有行业都非常非常有趣。而且我认为你提到的那些行业，比如水泥和钢铁，之所以更复杂，正是因为它们根基深厚且稳固，你知道，可能还抗拒变革。

So this is a mystery. This is very, very interesting across all sectors. And I think those sectors you were saying, like cement and steel, are more complex because how deep they are and solid, you know, and adverse to change maybe.

没错。而且我很喜欢你表达的方式。实际上我在教学中也会采用类似方法。我开设了几门关于开放式创新与重大挑战、或开放式创新与脱碳/气候变化的课程。确实，在我最初的几节课中，我会展示联合国可持续发展目标（SDGs），对吧？

Exactly. And I like I like the way that you put it. Actually, I do it quite similarly in my teaching. So I have a few courses on open innovation and grand challenges or open innovation and decarbonization or climate change. And indeed, in one of my first lectures, I do show the SDGs, the Sustainable Development Goals, right?

通常我会强调两点：第一点正如你刚才所说，玛丽索尔，开放式创新本身就包含在可持续发展目标中——它就在那里明摆着。第二点是，尽管SDGs包含其他目标，但气候变化就像一种威胁，会协同性地或通过权衡取舍的方式影响这16个目标中的多数。

And then usually I say two things. One is exactly what you just said, Marisol, right? It's like, well, open innovation is in the Sustainable Development Goals. It's like, it's right there, right? And then the other thing is that even though there are, of course, also other SDGs, but climate change is kind of like a threat that goes across many of these 16 goals, right, synergistically or also in terms of trade offs.

这也是我一贯的主张：如果我们能通过开放式创新解决气候变化问题，那么虽然不能解决所有问题，但确实能助力实现大部分可持续发展目标。

So that is also always my proposition. You know, if we figure out how we can use open innovation to address climate change, then not everything, but a large portion of the SDGs we can actually help address.

那我能不能问个有点书呆子气的问题？

Can I ask also a kind of nerdy question then?

欢迎加入书呆子俱乐部。

Yes. Join the Nerd Club.

我刚才在想你提到的那篇论文——Bohusztobel等21人合著的——其实单是这篇论文的诞生过程就够做一期播客了。但通过那次与所有同行的开放式互动，真正凸显出的是：必须在不同分析层面上共同解决这些开放式创新相关议题。这其实也是我们的出发点，但最终我们做的是寻找那些能真正贯穿不同分析层面的主题，明白吗？

So I was thinking of that one paper you already referred to, the Bohusztobel et al, 21 other people, where one of the things we really kind of ended up doing that's a whole we can do a whole podcast on how that paper came about. But, I mean, one of the things that really emerged through that sort of open, let's say, interaction with all all those colleagues is also the importance of addressing some of these issues, open innovation related issues across different levels of analysis. Right? That was also kind of a starting point, but I think what what we ended up doing is looking for, okay, where you know, what what are certain themes where you can really, you know, cut across, you know, these different levels of analysis, let's say. Right?

因为这不仅关乎组织本身，还涉及它与个人、生态系统、行业乃至棘手问题的关联。我们之前没提到这点。但确实如此。我认为这本质上就是核心理念，以及由此衍生出哪些研究问题。对吧？

Because it's not only about the organization, but then how it relates to the individual and, or the ecosystem or the industry or maybe the wicked problem. We didn't mention that one. But yeah. Let so I think that that was sort of really the idea and what kind of research questions come come out of it. Right?

因为我认为现实世界中实际存在的问题，你知道的，并不会局限于单一分析单元，可以这么说。

Because I think the actual problems in the in the real world out there, you know, don't stick to one unit of analysis, so to say.

是啊。马塞尔，我不知道你怎么想，但我听完这些聪明学者的见解后，实际上也采纳了我们共同建议的做法。比如当我研究能源领域的开放式创新项目时，我记得自己画了个金字塔模型，对吧？我说要从不同分析层面来观察这个现象，并据此收集数据、提出研究问题。所以我开始研究这个所谓的开放式创新系统，对吧？

I yeah. And I don't know about you, Marcel, but I listened to these smart scholars and actually also ended up doing, you know, what we were all suggesting. So when I studied this open innovation program in the energy sector, for example, I remember the way that I put it is I actually kind of drew a pyramid, right? Where I said, okay, I now want to look at this phenomenon from these different levels of analysis and collect data accordingly and ask research questions accordingly. So I looked at, I kind of started to look at the open innovation system, so to say, right?

于是我开始观察——这些能源公司、初创企业、非营利组织如何协同运作？但同时我也进行项目层面分析，比如研究单个企业如何将知识引入组织，直至个体层面。说实话我本不是微观研究出身，但马瑞索尔，作为从业者你肯定也深有体会——当我们观察企业在开放式创新项目中的行为时，意识到所有行动都源于人，对吧？是那些坐在谈判桌前的人在思考'我该如何最优处理这件事'。所以我们根本无法回避对这方面的研究。

So looking at, well, how do all these energy utilities, startups, nonprofit organizations, how they work together as whole? But I also looked at project level analysis, for example, at a single firm looking at how they're actually trying to get in knowledge into the organization, all the way down to the individuals. So we really, and I'm actually not such a micro person per se or originally, but, and I think Marisol, you can probably also relate to that as a practitioner, as we were observing what these firms were doing in this open innovation program, we realized it's the people that are doing all of this, right? It's the people that are sitting at the table and they negotiating, they're thinking about, well, how can I best do this? So there was just no way for us not to study that and not to look into that.

实际上我们重点研究了所谓的'边界跨越者'，对吧？就是那些一只脚在组织内、一只脚在组织外的个体。这有点像林纳斯·达尔德某篇论文里的比喻。我们重点探究这些边界跨越者如何取得成功，以及如何将知识反哺给企业。

So I think actually a large part of that was looking at, we call them boundary spanners, right? So individuals that have kind of one foot in the organization, one foot out. I think that's kind of the metaphor that Linus Dallander has in one of these papers, right? And so we looked at how can these boundary spenders actually be successful, right? And transfer knowledge back to their firms.

因此我觉得从多层面分析问题确实引人入胜。开放式创新的概念天然适合这种研究方式，或者说赋予了你这样做的自由。所以这些学者当年的想法确实很精妙，对吧？

And so I find that very engaging and interesting to indeed look at problems at these different levels of analysis. I think the concept of open innovation lends itself well-to-do that or gives you the freedom actually do that. So, yeah, so smart idea back then by by some of these folks. Right?

没错，完全正确。听你结合自身研究来阐述这些观点非常有趣。或许你可以再谈谈，你自己是如何搭建理论与实践的桥梁的？

Exactly. Exactly. And and so I'm I'm it's very interesting to hear kind of how you relate it to your you know, also to the research and everything. So maybe you can say also a little bit more about how you like, in how do you, like yourself, also try to build that bridge between, let's say, theory and practice. Right?

当然，你已经提到了一些事情，几种实现方式。当然，你有教学经验。当然，你也会参考数据和实践经验。那么这是你与实践工作者合作的方式吗？还是你有其他方法来完成这类工作或将其转化为实践？

So, of course, you already mentioned a couple of things, a couple of ways to to do that. Of course, you have the teaching. Of course, you draw on data and, you know, practical experiences. So is is that sort of how you work with with practice, with practitioners, or are there other ways in which you try to do do that type of work or make that translation to practice as well?

是的，我认为这对我来说也是一段旅程。当我刚开始作为年轻的博士生时，我是个纯粹的理论派，对吧？就像我说过的，那时我缺乏实践经验，也不懂如何融入实践者的世界。所以真要感谢亨利。

Yes, I think this has also really been a journey for me. I think, you know, when I started out as a young PhD student, I was I was very much the theory person, right? I told you, like, I didn't have practical experience, right? I didn't really know how to navigate this, this practitioner world. And so thanks God for Henry, right?

当我在加州大学伯克利分校做博士后、接受亨利指导时，那段经历真正让我明白了如何连接这两个世界——这能创造多大价值，又能带来多少成就感。那是我第一次接触这种模式，观察亨利如何与实践者互动。这可以说是第一个里程碑，塑造了我的工作方式。第二个关键点是深入特定行业去真正理解它们——作为跨界者，我们需要掌握对方世界的知识和语言才能有效沟通。我还与跨学科同事展开了合作。

So when I think that really, when when I did my postdoc at UC Berkeley under Henry's mentorship, I think that to me really opened my eyes to, you know, trying to bridge these two worlds and how much value that can generate and how fulfilling that can be. And so I think that was really the first time I was exposed to that and seeing, you know, how Henry does that and how he interacts with practitioners. So I think that was kind of the first milestone or the first, yeah, experience that kind of shaped how I do that. I think the second aspect then that really helped me was to go deeper into specific industries and really understand them because then I do feel like we're, when we're boundary spanners ourselves, we need to have a little bit of that knowledge of the other world, a little bit of that language so that we can effectively communicate with each other. And I also, collaborated with colleagues across disciplinary boundaries.

比如我来自斯坦福的同事史蒂夫·科梅洛，他并非传统管理领域，而是专精能源技术。这种跨学科合作为我打开了进入该行业实践者世界的大门。后来我开始通过访谈管理者、实地观察企业合作等方式收集实证研究数据，这自然引出了新问题：如何将研究成果回馈给实践者？

So my colleague, Steve Comello, from who used to be at Stanford, he was really not in classical management, but he was really in energy. He understood, you know, all of the technologies and so on. So also working in an interdisciplinary way facilitated access to the practitioner world in this industry. And so then I started to collect a lot of empirical research myself through interviewing managers, you know, being there when these companies actually collaborated, observing them. And I think that was kind of the segue to then also think about, Okay, now how can we transfer our research results back to practitioners?

我们在开放创新活动中做了大量演讲，编写了操作手册——把研究发现转化成更亲民、更简短的版本。现在在圣加仑大学工作也很有帮助，这里以'从洞见到影响'的模型著称，与产业界联系紧密，我们拥有强大的实践者网络。

We did a lot of presentations at these open innovation events. We did playbooks, you know, kind of translating our research findings into a more practitioner friendly, especially shorter version. So we did a lot of lot of those things. I think now in, in St. Gallen, which is known for its model from insight to impact, and it's known for its very strong ties to industries, that has also helped me because we have a strong network with practitioners.

我认为桥梁作用体现在三方面：研究（既从实践者获取数据，也回传发现）、教学、以及高管教育——最后这种形式能产生最即时的影响，因为我可以直接把研究发现带给课堂上的管理者，他们第二天就能思考如何应用。这些就是我在弥合鸿沟过程中形成的不同工作方式。

So I think here it's through research, both getting the data from practitioners, but also translating our findings back to them. It's through teaching. And it's also a lot through executive education that I feel like that is probably a format where you can have the most immediate impact because I can bring my research findings into this classroom, you know, to managers that can think about how to do this next day, right without any time lag. So I think these are kind of the different ways that I that I think about this and how I have evolved really in terms of also trying to bridge, you know, this gap.

我很好奇，因为这某种程度上启动了产学连接的机制。最终这也会反哺你的研究，可能影响并塑造你对自身研究领域未来的看法。

I'm very curious because this somehow kicks the role or how do you say, gets the ball rolling around this connection between industry and academia. And at the end, also, I imagine gives you challenge back into the own research, and it might affect and shape how you see the future of your own research field.

当然。

Absolutely.

你认为下一步该怎么做？挑战在哪里？你面前有什么？

What do you see as next steps? Where are the challenges? What's ahead of you here?

对。我觉得，有太多选择了，这很难抉择，但这是好事，因为这意味着马塞尔，你知道，我们还有些工作要

Right. So I think, I mean, there are so many, it's hard to choose, which is good because that means Marcel, you know, we still have some work to

做，你

do, you

知道，至少还有几十年。

know, at least a few decades.

但

But

应该够了吧？不过我想也许可以提两三点。对我来说，第一个领域确实是可持续性与开放式创新的交叉点，或者说是这些棘手问题，不管怎么称呼。比如思考气候变化这类系统性挑战，它们给企业带来巨大创新压力，而开放式创新如何帮助我们缓解这些棘手问题。顺便说一句，谈到世界开放式创新大会历届会议的历史，我深受启发。

it should be enough, right? But I think maybe, maybe I'll mention two or three. So I think the first area for me really is this intersection of sustainability and open innovation or these wicked problems, however you may put this, right? So thinking about some of these systemic challenges like climate change that actually put a lot of innovation pressure on on firms and to think about how open innovation can help us alleviate some of these these wicked problems. And I think I was very inspired, by the way, talking about the history of the different editions of the World Open Innovation Conference.

马塞尔，你得帮我回忆下当时的情况。罗马那届是什么时候举办的？

Marcel, you have to help me when that was in. When was the Rome edition?

罗马。对。2017年。

Rome. Yes. 2017.

2017年？

2017?

17或18年。没错。

'17 or '18. Yeah.

那正是安妮塔·麦加扬做主题演讲的时候对吧？她的《思考》。那场演讲太精彩了。天啊，我现在想起来都觉得不可思议。我有点...不说了。

So that was when Anita McGaeyan did the keynote, right? She Thinking. It was an amazing keynote. Oh, my God, I can't even think about that. I'm kind of stepping No.

说到这个...确实让我很震撼。不过真正启发我、塑造我的是——如果我记错了请纠正——我记得她演讲的核心观点是：我们必须为开放式创新构想新型因变量。你也是这么回忆的吗？她当时提出的方案是可持续发展目标对吧？

Into those Yeah, that is really freaking me out. Okay. But what really inspired me and has, I think, really shaped me is and correct me if I'm wrong, but my memory of that talk was that one key message that she wanted us to take away is that we have to think about new types of dependent variables for open innovation. Is that also how you recall it? And she was proposing that she was proposing the SDGs, right?

所以我们要探讨开放式创新如何助力实现部分可持续发展目标，而不仅仅是——或者说不仅限于——关注盈利和增长对吧？当然不是说这些不重要，但她确实拓展了我们...我认为是拓宽了我们的视野。这是第一个重点领域。毫无疑问，开放式创新与数字创新的交叉领域一直很热门，未来也会持续火热。

So let's look at how open innovation can help us address some of the SDGs rather than or in addition to or not only looking at profitability and growth, right? Which doesn't mean that this is not important, right? I'm not saying that, but she was kind of expanding our, I think our view on this. So I think that's the first area. Think definitely the intersection of open innovation and digital innovation has been very hot, will stay very hot.

我在思考，比如说，我们有篇文章探讨了'数字优先'的概念。即创新首先发生在数字虚拟环境中，之后才有可能映射到物理世界。那么在元宇宙中，开放创新会是什么样？也许我们会在世界开放创新大会上以虚拟形象见面——疫情期间我们确实这么做过。

So I'm thinking, for example, about, you know, we have one article where we think about the concept of digital first. So where innovation first happens in a digital virtual environment before, if ever imprinted onto the physical world. How would open innovation work like in a in a metaverse? You know, maybe we will, you know, meet as avatars at World Open Innovation Conference. We did actually during COVID.

确实如此。我认为这些问题令人兴奋，但不仅限于数字环境中的开放创新形式。还存在新的课题，比如我们很清楚地理解多家企业如何在平台背景下协作进行数字创新，相关研究非常活跃。但当我谈到从行业获取灵感时，马瑞索尔，这源于我们观察能源公用事业公司的感悟——它们没有平台基础，也不是数字原生企业。

We did. I think these are exciting questions, but also not only how open innovation takes place digitally, but I think there are also new questions like we understand quite well, for example, how multiple firms can collaborate for digital innovation in the context of platforms, right? There's a very interesting thriving research on that. But when I talking about getting inspiration from industry Marisol, this really came from us observing these energy utilities and we're like, but they don't have a platform. They are not digital natives.

它们没有标准化接口来直接接入各种软件解决方案。然而它们仍在尝试数字化转型，与提供数字解决方案的初创公司合作。这如何实现？没有接口如何进行开放创新？于是我们开始研究：它们究竟是怎么做到的？

They don't have standardized interfaces where they can now just plug in, you know, different software solutions and so on. Yet they are still trying to become more digital to collaborate with startups that offer digital solutions. So how does that work? Like how can they work together, do open innovation if they don't have an interface? Then we actually looked at, okay, how do they do it?

它们如何构建接口来实现更具生成性的数字创新？这里有很多值得探讨的内容。第三点正如马塞尔你之前提到的多层次视角，特别是那些跨界桥梁角色——思考如何赋能员工和开放创新实践者有效开展跨界工作。我认为这至关重要，人工智能或许能辅助但绝不可能完全替代人类在这方面的作用。

How do they build interfaces so that they can then actually do more generative digital innovation? So I think there's a lot of interesting stuff. And then the third aspect is really, Marcel, what you mentioned earlier, these different levels, also looking at these boundary spanners, right, thinking about how can we enable, you know, people enable employees, enable open innovation practitioners to really do this boundary spanning effectively. And I think that's going to be important. I think this is something that AI will not be able to do, maybe support, but definitely not replace 100.

因此我认为这也是未来值得关注的领域。当然还有很多其他方面，但我暂且聚焦这三点。

So I think that will also be interesting to look at in the future. And if And a lot more, but I'll limit myself to those three.

确实。我认为在尝试整合你提到的这些要素时，当然会涉及不同类型的资源调配和开放形式。这实际上拓展了我们对开放创新本质及其应用方式的理解维度。

Yeah. I mean, I, that's fair enough. So I think in in kind of, trying to to create some some synergy across some of the things that you mentioned. So, of course, you talk about about respending and openness of different kinds. So I think that's also opening up a kind of a broader perspective on what open innovation really means or how we can work with it.

你提到的跨层次分析方法确实很关键，特别是在连接理论与实践方面。结束前我还想探讨一个跨行业/跨领域的具体问题——就像你之前与卡梅洛合作的案例，我个人认为这极具挑战性，但完全同意这正是应对棘手问题和重大挑战时必需的方式。

So I think you mentioned the sort of, you know, cutting across those levels of analysis, of course, also bridging between theory and practice. We talked about that. One thing that, just, before we conclude, I'm also curious about one specific aspect, which is more cutting across different, let's say, sectors or industries, which I think is something you mentioned that before, right, working with Carmelo and all, you know, kind of that was one example of how you can do that. Because I personally find it quite a a challenge, but I totally agree. This is exactly when we talk about wicked problems, you know, and grand challenge is what we need to do.

对吧？因为开放式创新，我们常将其描述为跨越不同组织边界。但问题是，我们作为学者和实践者，究竟该如何真正实现这一点以增强参与度？尤其是在面对那些我们甚至不知道该关联哪些因素或技术的棘手问题时。对此有什么最终想法吗？

Right? Because open innovation, we often frame it as cutting across different organizational boundaries. But, I mean, how can we really do that both as, you know, scholars and as practitioners to be more engaging, especially in the context of wicked problems where we don't even know which factors maybe we should relate to or technologies and so on. So maybe some final thoughts on that?

是啊，这就像打了兴奋剂的开放式创新对吧？总在探索如何更进一步地开放。但我完全赞同跨行业开放的观点。我认为不仅企业边界变得可渗透，行业边界也是如此。

Yeah, it's like open innovation on steroids, right? It's like always this next level of like how you can, how you can open up. But I definitely agree on openness across industries. I think it's not only the firm boundaries that are becoming permeable and peruse. It's also the industry boundaries.

在能源领域尤为明显，我们有很多案例。比如能源与交通的边界因电动汽车已基本消失。水泥公司也在与化工企业合作脱碳——他们可以捕获排放的二氧化碳，通过管道输送给化工企业作为生产原料，而非使用化石燃料提取的原始材料。

Certainly in energy, we see that we have many examples, energy and mobility, for example, with electric vehicles, that boundary is basically not existing anymore. Right? But we also have cement companies working on decarbonization with chemical companies. So for example, they could capture the carbon that they emit and actually build a pipe to the chemical company. The chemical company can use that carbon in as their products rather than using, you know, virgin material based on fossil fuel.

这样的案例很多，大家都在探索。我认为我们尚未完全解决这个问题。跨学科研究很棒，但激励机制并不完善对吧？

So I think there are many examples. Everyone is trying to figure that out. I think we haven't really figured that out yet. I think in research, interdisciplinary research is great. It's not well incentivized, right?

现行激励机制鼓励在特定期刊发表论文，使得跨学科研究难以开展。但这很有趣，需要我们主动去突破。

The way that we are incentivized publishing specific journals, and so it's hard to do. Right? But I think it's it's interesting. It's it's on us to kind of try to figure that out.

这太有意思了。考虑到毕尔巴鄂本地情况，由Iberdrola主导的能源中心非常引人注目。这个基础设施或生态系统中包含多少企业？我常将生态系统视为促进协作的网络架构。我们不仅看到能源领域的跨行业连接，本地工业公司间也存在着独特的动态关系。

This is so interesting. And also, of course, looking forward to the conference, but considering the context here in Bilbao, with this the energy hub that we have here led by Iberdrola, which is very interesting. How many companies are in that, like, infrastructure or ecosystem? Because I sometimes look at ecosystems as an infrastructure to move around and work these connections. So we have this very interesting connection across the energy sector, but also these local dynamics have with industrial companies here.

没错，这是跨行业的互补协作。您的话题与我们日常实践高度相关。期待通过与合作伙伴的经验交流——包括他们带来的关于不确定性的研究论文和最佳实践——我们能获得新见解，整合这些优秀案例资源。

Right. Complementing and going across sectors. So I think that your topic will be also very relevant to what we live day to day here. And I hope that we can learn and get new insights on how to leverage this and get these examples also together with other partners that we have because we will have very interesting partners also bringing their experience and many relevant papers related to this uncertainty and of course, some best practices. So I'm sure that we will need something together with all these very, very nice threads.

是的，我对此非常兴奋，希望能帮助弥合我们一直在讨论的这些界限。对吧？

Yeah, I'm really excited about it, and I hope I can help bridge some of these boundaries that we've been talking about. Right?

我确信你能做到。否则我们当然不会邀请你来了。

I'm I'm sure you can. Otherwise, we would not have asked you to come, of course.

没错。否则你们再也不会邀请我了。

Right. Otherwise, you will not invite me ever again.

不会的。你永远受欢迎。别担心这个。真的不会。

No. You're always welcome. You're always welcome. Don't worry about it. Well, no.

但我们真的很期待。对我来说，就像最初邀请你时说的，这在某种意义上像是完成了一个闭环。因为你是社区建设的一部分，所以能听到你正在从事的工作、你如何为这个主题和整个社区做出贡献，这非常有意思。

But we are really looking forward to it. And I think for us, I think when I asked you initially, as I said, it's like closing the loop in in some sense. Right? So I think it's really nice because you've been, you know, part of building, you know, the community. So I think it's it's really interesting to to hear, what you have been working on, how you can contribute, you know, to the theme and the overall you know, for the overall community.

所以我们非常期待。感谢你参与这期播客，内容非常精彩。我们很快会在毕尔巴鄂见面，希望...

So we are definitely looking forward to that. Yeah. And and so with that, I think we will thank you also for contributing to this podcast. Very, very interesting. And we'll see each other soon in Bilbao and and hopefully

能品尝到一些绝佳的美食。

For some fantastic for some fantastic food.

还有那个。对。对。对。我们忘了

Also that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We forgot

酱汁测试。对吧？

the sauce test. Right?

但这不言而喻。对。不对。所以

But this goes without saying. Yeah. No. So

我们正在演绎一段历史，关于我们在此推进的事业。你之前提到你年轻时学者的经历。我在想，其实你现在依然年轻。剧本。但最糟糕的是什么呢？

We are playing a decent of history of what we are bringing forward here. You were talking before when you were a young scholar. I was thinking, well, you are still young. Script. But what's the worst thing?

你知道，最后的最后故事，但我能看出WOIC变得多老了，因为在首届WOIC时，我有一位尚在子宫里的联合主持人，如今已经11岁了。所以首届WOIC时我怀着孕，现在女儿都快成青少年了。对吧？你能看出来，WOIC的历史每天都在增长？

You know, final final story, but I can kind of watch how old WOIC is becoming because at the very first WOIC I had a in uterus co presenter that is now turning 11. So I was highly, I was highly pregnant during the first WOIC and and now my daughter's almost a teenager. Right? So you can I can see it, you know, every day how old WOIC is becoming?

那个名字最后没给她用对吧？WOH。也许

That was that didn't become her name, did it? WOH. Maybe

我本该用的。现在你提起这个，真是个好主意。

I should have. Not now that you're talking about that. That's a great idea.

对。不。对。也许现在做吧。

Yeah. No. Yeah. Maybe now do it.

作为女孩的名字确实有点奇怪。不过好吧。

It does have a a bit of a weird ring to it for for a girl's name. But okay.

科拉。为什么是科拉之类的？

Kela. Why Kela or something?

这样好多了。好吧。我会向她提议的。对。

That's better. Okay. Well I will propose that to her. Yeah.

对。对。她总能应付的。不。很好。

Yeah. Yeah. She could always do. No. Good.

但太兴奋了。对。嗯，非常感谢，还有克里斯汀。真的很感激。谢谢你，马塞尔。

But So excited. Yeah. Well well, thanks so much, and Christine. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Marcel.

谢谢你，马塞尔。关于你的主题演讲。对。当然也感谢观众们观看或收听播客。嗯，下一期很快也会上线。

Thank you, Marcel. To your keynote. Yeah. And thanks, to the audience, of course, for for watching or listening to the podcast. And, yeah, the next one is coming up, soon also.

敬请关注。

So stay tuned.

请持续关注，我们将继续探讨所有与开放式创新相关的话题。非常、非常有趣。谢谢大家。

Stay tuned, and we will keep talking about all open innovation related topics. So, so interested. Thank you, everyone.