朱莉·佩克：好奇、能力、焦虑与真实的身体组织

大家好，我是朱伟，神经科学博士，目前以费登奎斯疗法为主要职业。现居印度尼西亚巴厘岛。在本播客中，我将分享与费登奎斯从业者、学员及任何进行身体探索之旅人士的对话。本期节目，我很荣幸地与我的费登奎斯导师朱莉·佩克展开对谈。朱莉自1990年起成为费登奎斯治疗师，并于2003年2月起担任国际费登奎斯师资培训导师。

Hello, I'm Zhu Wei, a neuroscience PhD, and right now a Feldenkrais practitioner as my main job. Currently, I'm based in Bali, Indonesia. In this podcast, I share my conversation with Feldenkrais practitioners, students, and anyone on the journey of their somatic exploration. In this episode, I'm thrilled to share my conversation with my Feldenkrais teacher Julie Peck. Julie has been a Feldenkrais practitioner since 1990, and she became a Feldenkrais trainer, training Feldenkrais teachers all around the world since 02/2003.

她也是《动中觉醒：轻松掌握动作的七大原则》的合著者。这些信息或许足以证明她是位经验丰富的资深费登奎斯治疗师。但我希望通过这次对话，你能更直观地感受她的为人，更重要的是了解她作为治疗师的独特风格。我与朱莉有师徒之谊——她是我参加的费登奎斯师资培训的教育总监，某种程度上塑造了我对这套方法的理解。在我的学习困境或人生低谷时，她常以独特方式给予关键帮助。

She's also a co author of the book Moving from the Seven Principles for Ease and Mastery in Movement. Well, all of this information is probably to show that she's a very experienced and established Feldenkrais practitioner. But I hope through this conversation you will get a more direct sense of who she is, and also importantly, what kind of Feldenkrais practitioner she is. I have the personal connection with Julie because she's the educational director of my Feldenkrais teacher training, so to some extent she shaped my understanding of this method. There have also been many moments when I encountered difficulties in my learning, or generally in my life, that she offered critical help in her unique style.

本期对初入费登奎斯领域的从业者（比如我）极具价值。朱莉慷慨分享了她的费登奎斯启蒙经历、早期客户群体、如何建立功能整合的信心、以及向公众传播该方法的心得。她曾提出一个发人深省的问题：'作为费登奎斯从业者，我究竟在做什么？'当然她也分享了自己的答案。对于任何关注体感教育的听众，本期将揭示费登奎斯法中某些深邃原则与独特视角。

This episode should offer tremendous value for beginner Feldenkrais practitioners, as I am one of them. Julie generously shared how she started her personal Feldenkrais journey, her initial clientele as a practitioner, how she gained confidence in doing function integration, how she communicates the method to the public, etc. So one of the really profound questions she asked me and all of us is, What am I doing as a Phalanoprost practitioner? Of course, Julie also shared her answer. I also think that for any audience interested in somatic education, this episode will highlight some really profound principles and unique points of the Feldenkrais method.

例如朱莉在对话中指出，费登奎斯与其他健康疗法的核心区别在于：我们注重赋予人们自主权。有趣的是，聆听她个人故事的同时，你也会领略她如何在学习与存在之路上为自己争取主动权。那么，闲言少叙，我们开始吧？

For example, one thing that really distinguishes what Feldenkrais practitioners do compared to many other health modalities, as Julie mentioned in the conversation, is that we emphasize on giving people agency. It is quite interesting that while hearing her personal stories, you will also learn about how she gives herself the agency to navigate in the world of learning and being. So, okay, without further ado, shall we begin?

好的，欢迎来自凯洛纳费登奎斯师资培训的导师、资深费登奎斯治疗师朱莉。具体从业多少年了？

All right, welcome Julie, my trainer from High Kelowna Feldenkrais Teachers Training and senior Feldenkrais practitioner. Would say how many years?

我哪年毕业的？1990年，1990年。

When did I graduate? 1990, 1990.

1990年啊，那就是34年了。没错，你始终是我费登奎斯之旅的巨大灵感来源，也是我永远信赖的人。

1990, yeah, so thirty four years so far. Yeah, yeah, just overall a huge inspiration for my Golden Cross journey and a person I always trust.

谢谢。

That's nice.

我就这么形容你。或许我们可以从最近的凯洛纳培训谈起？当初策划时你有什么具体目标吗？毕竟你主导过无数培训，这次有何不同？

That's how I would put it. Yeah. Maybe let's start talking about the clonal training, a little more fresh memories. When did you start to plan for the clonal training and did you have any intention or goal in mind? I know you've led many, many trainings, is it just another one?

记不清凯洛纳培训的确切筹备时间了，但确实提前了好几年。由于疫情延期了些时日。我特别钟爱这种团队协作的培训模式——作为教育总监，明确分工的团队能避免所有压力集于一身。

I can't tell you the exact date we started training for the Kelowna Feldenkrais training but it was quite a few years. It was a few years prior to we'd started and it got extended a bit because of COVID, how long we spent. So it was the way I really liked to do trainings that appealed to me in Kelowna. It was with a team, a very clear team of people. That's really important to me as the ED so that I don't feel everything is on me.

我希望学员们能听到多元的声音。基洛纳团队最棒的一点在于，当我们交流时，当他们与不同培训师对话时，我向他们明确表示，我的目标是让毕业学员感到自己具备执业能力。这对我而言是个非常清晰的目标——当然每个人会有自己的学习历程，因为这是培训不可或缺的部分——但我的核心目标是培养出真正有能力开展工作、并以各自独特方式延续这项工作的学员。我认为学员们确实感受到了整个培训期间团队的存在，这种集体支持的力量产生了巨大影响。他们在模块间隙及模块进行期间所起的作用，都是整个培训过程中极为根本的部分。

I want the trainees to hear a variety of voices. The wonderful thing about the Kelowna people is that when we were talking, when they were talking to different trainers, I made it very clear to them that my goal was to graduate people who could feel that they were competent to practice. So that was a really clear goal for me that of course people would have their personal learning journey because that's such an integral part of the training but that my goal was to bring up people who felt competent to actually do the work and to carry on the work in their very own individual ways. So I think the trainees really felt that the team was there throughout the training. I think that that ground swell of having and that support of having that team there made a huge difference And they were such a fundamental part of the process in terms of what happened between the segments and what happened during the segments.

是的，对于不熟悉基洛纳培训的听众来说，除了朱莉，我们还有两名助理培训师爱丽丝和吉赛尔，另外还有两名培训师（不是从业者）罗伯和桑德拉支持整个团队。从我角度看，那里就像一个始终支持你的大家庭，我们可以在模块间隙通过邮件联系，期间还有大量衔接活动保持学习连续性。我发现并非所有培训都这样。您设定让每位毕业生都感到胜任的目标，是否因为您发现以往经验中并非总是如此？

Yeah, so for listeners not familiar with the Kelowna training, we have a team of, besides Julie, then there's another two assistant trainers, Alice and Giselle, and then we have also two other trainers, not two other practitioners, Rob and Sandra, to support the whole team. So, yeah, from my perspective, it's really feeling like a family there that's always supporting you, so we can email them in between the segments, and we have a lot of in between segment activities to keep the continuation of studies. I do find that's not in every training. Your goal is to have every graduate feel competent. Is that because you find in other, in your previous experience it's not always the case?

不，我认为不同培训有各自的流程设计。并非每个人都必须成为

No, I think trainings have different processes in place, if you like. So it's not that every person has to become

一名

a

合格的从业者，但要明确这是成为从业者的培训，而不仅是个人成长课程。如果他们选择个人发展路径也没问题，但本培训会更侧重于培养从业者。因此我认为，让学员获得大量关于其进展的反馈至关重要。

competent practitioner, but that they're very clear that this training is about becoming a practitioner. That it's not just about personal development. If they want to do that personal development stream, that's fine. But the training is going to be more directed toward becoming a practitioner. So I think to do that, I think it's really important that the trainees get a lot of feedback on how they're going.

需要很多支持，或者说能与培训团队交流的机会。最重要的是，他们需要感受到自己被关注着。

Need a lot of I think support or being able to talk to the training team. And most of all, I think they need to feel that they are being tracked.

他们的进步。是的，

Their progress. Yes,

让他们切实感受到被关注，我认为这非常关键。

that they actually feel that they're being tracked. I think that's really important.

我的意思是，虽然没有明确表格记录'本模块你做了什么、进步多少'，但更多是通过个人互动来追踪？

I mean, there's not like an explicit form to say what did you do this segment, How much you progressed? But being tracked more in like maybe a personal interaction?

通过个人互动，以及我们幕后关于你们的表现、潜在需求及哪些方面需要加强指导的讨论。

Personal interactions, but the discussions that went on behind the scenes between us on what you were doing and what you might need and where we felt you could do with more input.

哦，所以你其实有个秘密笔记本之类的东西。

Oh, so you have actually like a secret notebook.

我不认为那算是笔记本，但我们确实进行了很多讨论。绝对是的。

I wouldn't say it's a notebook, but we had a lot of discussions. Absolutely.

好吧。哦，哇。

Okay. Oh, wow.

你知道，就是观察人们在FI中的需求，留意他们在ATM中的行为，以便真正帮助他们掌握FI。是的，虽然不像正式记录那样明确，但确实通过大量个别谈话追踪每个人的进展。

You know, and just noticing what people needed in FI observing what people were doing in ATM to really help them with FI. Yeah, yeah, so not absolutely I agree explicit as in terms of a lot of individual talks, but yeah, definitely tracking everyone as it was going on.

确实。哦明白了。这就是为什么你说需要更固定的分组

Definitely. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's why you say you need a more consistent group

对，团队越大，追踪成员就越容易。你也能看出谁在不同小组里最能发挥作用。明白我的意思吗？学员有不同的学习风格，所以在导师组里，他们最适合与谁搭档，谁会...

Yeah, do the bigger the team is, the more people it's easy to track them. And you also get the idea of who on the team is going to be most helpful in the different groups. Do you know what I mean? What are the trainees different learning styles? So in those mentor groups, who they would best respond to, who would be?

我原以为是随机分配的，我们确保轮换。对于听众，我们有个导师组，可能每几节课轮换一次，但学员会固定跟随某位主训或助教，在课间进行讨论。不过现在知道背后是有设计的。

I thought it's just random, I make sure we shift. So for listeners, we have this mentor group where maybe every few segments we shift, but it's a group of students associated with one of the trainers or assistant trainers, and we will have discussion in the segment and between segments. But okay, have some design behind that.

当团队以这种方式运作时——我们这次特别成功，其他培训也有类似经验——尤其是这个团队非常棒，参与度极高。因为团队成员对教学法各有见解，对培训内容也有不同想法，能引发非常精彩的讨论。

You know, once you get a team going this way that we had really well in and I've had it in other trainings, another one I can think of specifically, but this especially was a great team. They were really, really involved. I think you can really because you've got the team, and the team all have different ways of looking at the method. You know, they all have different ideas on how you could teach what could be included in the training. So you can have some really, really good discussions.

而且我们当时同住一个屋檐下，这极大促进了课间的大量讨论和会议。

And, you know, that was really helped by the fact that we were all sharing a house together. So there were a lot of discussions, a lot of meetings in between segments.

是啊，这次培训中吉赛尔经常说'昨晚朱莉给我们演示了这个'

Yeah, in this training sometimes Giselle is like, last night Julie showed us this.

这确实相当不寻常。

And that's quite unusual.

当你提到不同风格、不同视角看待方法时，能否更明确地阐述一下？

And then when you say different styles, different ways to look at the methods, can you make them a bit more explicit?

看，我认为这是我们共同

Look, I think it's the way we all come to

的

the

方法。可能需要从费登奎斯谈到的思维、感受、觉知和动作这些基础层面进行区分。人们在这些方面有何偏好？实际上是在筛选那些——因为我们团队中的每个人以及培训中遇到的学员都各不相同。有些人更偏重认知层面。

method. Probably distinguish it between even if we go back to the basics of what Feldenkrais talked about thinking, feeling, sensing and moving. And what are people's preferences there? So it's really picking up the people who and because all of us in the team and all the people you meet in trainings are all different. So some people are very much more cognitive.

他们需要先建立框架来梳理体验，特别是培训初期对动觉不敏感的人。要知道，当他们进入一个全新的感官世界时——就像我当年受训时的经历——对我来说，能有些

They need to have a framework to begin to sort their experience in, especially if they're not that kinaesthetic at the beginning of a training. You know, if this is a whole new sensory world that they're moving into, which is what happened to me in my training. So it was really important for me to have some

现成的

sort

框架来安放体验至关重要。因为当时我无法做出足够区分，那个全新世界有时会让我感到无所适从。但最重要的是，我始终相信这个方法。我坚信总会有收获。不知道你是否记得开场时你说过信任我——我很珍视这句话。

of frameworks in place that I could put my experience into. Because I couldn't make enough distinctions, it was such a new world for me that sometimes I could just feel a bit overwhelmed. But I suppose the big thing is I always trusted the method. I always trusted that something was going to happen. I don't know how much that you know I loved what you said at the beginning when you said that you felt you could trust me.

这非常关键。因为费登奎斯在我培训中的呈现方式让我对他产生了绝对信任。我深信只要愿意投入时间、努力和耐心，就一定会发现对生命真正重要的东西。每当听他讲解时，我总觉得他谈论的远不止动作，而是我的整个人生。不过我说得有些跑题了。

That's really important. Because there was something in the way Feldenkrais presented in my training that I trusted him implicitly. That there was something in this that if I was prepared to put in the time, the work, the patience, that something really would emerge that would be really important in my life. I always felt when Feldenkrais talked that he was talking about my life much more than just movement. But I'm getting off track here.

所以有些人需要框架和结构，而另一些人天生就有极强的动觉直觉。他们能做出精微区分，虽然未必能说明这些感知如何影响自我组织。对于后者，你需要找到切入点，避免给他们过多认知负担。

So there's those people who need a framework, they really need structure. Then there's people who are incredibly intuitive already in the kinesthetic sense. They make incredible distinctions about it. They might not make them in terms of their organisation, in how this influences how I organise myself, but they've already got a very rich library of distinctions that they're making. So for them you've got to find how can you take off, don't get too cognitive for them.

因为那样他们就会开始怀疑自己实际需要信任的切身经验。还有些人你得真正激发他们的好奇心。这对你从来不是问题。但对某些人来说这非常关键，你明白我的意思吗？必须找到方法并以某种方式引导。因为如果你问的问题太大，人们会不知所措。

Because then they'll start distrusting something that's in their experience that they really need to trust. Then there's people who you're really having to develop their curiosity. Was never issue with you. But with some people that's a really big thing, do you know what I mean, to have to find a way and to facilitate it in a way too. Because if you ask too big a question, people get overwhelmed.

他们不知道该如何应对。所以问题又回到：如何将事情分解到让人开始产生好奇心的程度？因为对我来说，好奇心是

They don't know what to do with it. So again, how do you break things down into a level that people start getting curious? Because curiosity for me is

一个组织。

an organisation.

它是一种存在方式。通过ATM（注：此处应为特定术语缩写），当人们获得更多时，他们的自我形象开始扩展，更多自我融入形象中，可以说他们的世界变大了。在那个状态下的某种特质和好奇心，与困在低层次时的状态截然不同，当我

It's a way of being. Through ATM as people get more, their self image starts to expand, they get more of themselves in their image, their world gets bigger if you like. There's something and curiosity in that place that's very different to if I'm a bit stuck down here and I'm

像是发出‘哦’

like oh

我是认真的

I'm serious

关于那个’

about that'

因为我还没准备好改变，实际上我还没准备好

Because I'm not ready to move, I'm not actually ready

去进入

to in

一个能带我前往某处的进程。

a process that can take me somewhere.

当你说我总是充满好奇时，其实我并不总是如此。正如你所说，在训练初期，我是个更偏认知型的人，对身体感知的区分能力不强。但你最初并未告知我这点，我也并不知晓。所以那时的好奇，我记得第一次真正信任这个方法，是在读到莫旭关于学习如何学习的文章时。我当时想，终于明白为何要做这些微小动作——原来是为了更好地感知，逐步建立更精细的区分能力。

When you say I'm always curious, I'm not always curious. I think at the beginning of the training, as you said, I'm a more cognitive person, not much distinction of the bodily sense. You But didn't at first you didn't tell me that, and I didn't know that. So the curiosity at that time was really, I remember my first moment I feel I can trust this method was reading Mo Xu's writing about learning to learn. I'm like, okay, finally I understand why are we doing all these small movements, it's for sensing better, better, bringing distinction.

但在此之前，我的状态是时好时坏，并不确定是否该坚持这种方法。你知道，用这种偏重脑力的运作和组织方式时，我的身体常处于你说的那种卡住状态。是的，在弹簧波式的运作模式下，我总是陷在椅子里或屏幕前，注意力范围狭窄。那时所谓的好奇，往往只是困惑：这方法为何有效？

But before that I was like, sometimes it feels good, sometimes it doesn't. I don't really trust if this is something I should stick to, you know? So with this brainy way of functioning, organizing, oftentimes my body is in the state of, what you say, or stuck. Yeah, with the spring wave functioning, I'm always stuck in the chair or stuck in front of a screen and my attention is small. The kind of curiosity I had at that time is oftentimes like, why does this work?

背后的机制是什么？所有这些分析性思维，与现在对比——如今我拥有了更丰富得多的感知区分库，使得好奇心能提出更细致的问题。教学中我常遇到新生，尤其在中国，因费登奎斯法尚处早期发展阶段，多数人通过阅读莫舍的书而非亲身体验课程而来，所以他们总提出这类偏认知的问题。

What's the mechanism behind this? So all this more analytical way of thinking versus I think now with really a much, much bigger library of distinction repertoire of sensing, it's possible to ask a lot more detailed questions in my curiosity. Oftentimes I encounter new students in my teaching. And a lot of people, especially in China, because Feldenkra is still in such early development, most people came from reading Moshe's book instead of actually experiencing a class. So they always ask this kind of more cognitive questions.

这时我就需要设法让他们慢下来，先开始感知某些东西。

And then I need to find a way to let them slow down and start to sense something first.

不，我觉得这个关于你如何处理池塘的理念非常有趣。确实。

No, I think this is really interesting, this whole idea about what you do with ponds. Yeah.

那么回到你最初的目标，即让毕业生成为自信、有能力且自信的从业者，你认为你达到目标了吗？

So if we come back to your original goal of having graduates become confident, competent and confident practitioners, do you think you reached your goal?

我认为这个目标不可能完全实现。这始终是个近似值。你希望的是已经赋予人们相关技能，让他们开始理解这只是一种近似。比如，我可能会举一个非常具体的例子。

I think there's no way you can reach that goal. Again, it's approximations. What you're hoping for is that you've given people the skills. You know, they can begin to understand that this is approximation. So you know, maybe I'll go to something very, thing.

也许我一开始会说我有个客户，我观察他们转动头部。最初要明白我的认知会受限于自身经验——当我做这个动作时会关注什么。而且你是通过视觉方式进行的，所以你在用另一种感官来理解。

Maybe I start off with I've got a client and I'm looking at them, moving their head, turning. And at the beginning to understand that I'm going to be limited by what my experience of doing that is. What I pay attention to when I do that. Plus you're also doing it in a visual way. So you're using a different sense to do it.

随着训练深入——不仅是训练，还有整个费登奎斯探索之旅——当你开始扩展自我认知时会发现：'哦，转动头部的是我这个人，不是我的头'。这个道理需要反复聆听，因为我们在不断丰富自我形象。

And that as the training progresses and not just the training, your whole fell in Christ journey, as you begin to expand your self image and go, oh, when I move my head, that's me that's moving. It's not my head. You know? And we have to hear that over and over and over and over again. Because we keep adding more to our image.

ATM（动中觉察）正是希望赋予我们这种能力：持续整合更多元素到自我形象中，不断扩展注意力，保持流动感。即使在做ATM时追问'为什么'，我的头部仍保持自由，仍能感知动作的可能性，仍能从不同视角观察。费登奎斯让我明白：如果僵化地追问'为什么'并固定头部，就会阻断多元视角。但这就是探索的旅程。

And this is what ATM hopefully gives us this ability to keep incorporating more into our image, keep expanding our attention, keep feeling we don't have to get stuck so that even when I'm in an ATM and I'm asking why I'm not stuck in asking why it's why, why is that doing that? And my head is still free and I can still feel possibilities for movement and I can still feel possibilities for looking at a different perspective. So to Feldenkrais to understand that if I go, why? And I've fixed my head, that that has stopped my different perspectives. But I think that's the journey.

前几天我正躺着做ATM（动觉功能整合）练习。如你所说，我已经坚持三十多年了。当时我突然意识到，天啊，我开始更清晰地理解他所讲的内容了。这正是我热爱的部分——课程带给我的这种领悟。对我来说，每次ATM都是拓展学习方式的契机。

I was just lying down doing an ATM the other day. And as you said, I've been doing this for over thirty years. And I go, oh my god, I'm beginning to get a clearer understanding of what he's talking about. But that's what I love. That's what I love about the lessons, you know, so that for me, I think I've always said to to you that every ATM is an, is, an opportunity for me to expand how I learn.

无论具体是什么ATM动作，我都会面临自己偏好的学习方式，并探索是否存在其他学习路径。比如我偏爱精细的小幅度动作，这样能保持专注，有时间分散注意力去调动更多自我觉察——这是我当前的修行方式。若动作幅度过大过快，我的注意力仍无法全程追踪空间中的运动轨迹。

It doesn't matter what the ATM is. That's when I'm going to come up against how I like to learn and are there other ways of learning. So do I like to learn doing ATMs that are really small, where I've got attention, I've got time to spread my attention, to bring in more of me because that's my journey. That's the way I need to do it at the moment. Because if I do too big a movement too fast, that that for my attention, I still can't hold it all moving through space.

虽然我能完成大幅度滚动动作，但那涉及截然不同的学习模式——需要持续感知周围空间、隔壁房间的人以及自身方位。这种调动好奇心和注意力的方式，与专注于呼吸的微幅前后滚动截然不同，后者能让我细腻觉察身体变化并整合各个部位。因此对学员来说，'你偏好哪种ATM动作？这反映了你当前的状态？'是个极具价值的问题。

So I can do it, but it's a different learning that I'm engaging in there when I'm doing a great big rolling movement through space. Where I'm having to stay oriented to, you know, the space around me, to the people in the room next to me, to where I am in the room. So that's a very different way of engaging my curiosity if you like, my attention to be than when I'm in a very small movement where I'm just looking at my breathing and maybe rolling a little bit forward and back and feeling the changes that are happening and gathering parts into my system. So you know a really great question or a really great, comment for a lot of trainees in trainings is what are the ATMs you like? What does that tell you about, where you are?

这种偏好揭示了你最高效的自我组织方式，或是开启更多探索可能的途径。

The way you can organise yourself most efficiently or have more possibilities for exploration.

确实。你的观点给我的现有认知打开了新维度。最近我也在自问：为什么我喜欢这个ATM动作？为什么选择教授这个？通常答案很简单——因为我喜欢，觉得这个动作适合我。但更深层的原因呢？

Yeah, yeah. What you said is almost another level on my current thinking. Like currently I am also asking myself why do I like this ATM? Why do I teach this ATM? Usually, why do I teach this?

以前我会归因于自我组织能力——这个课程我能明显感知，那个则完全不知所云。但现在你的观点让我意识到，我对ATM的偏好其实分为两个阶段...

Because I like it. I feel it's one to me, but then why? Before I would think, oh, it's my self organization, it's what I can feel, so this lesson I feel more, that lesson I have no idea what they're talking about. So that's one distinction. But then what you're saying, this makes me think that I have two phases of what kind of ATM I like.

训练初期两三年间，我总是偏爱大幅度动作，因为小幅度动作让我毫无感觉，甚至频频犯困。直到第三年末尾，我才开始真正慢下来，逐渐爱上那些精细微小的动作，完全沉浸其中。

Like at the beginning, maybe two, three years of the training, always liked the bigger movement, because the smaller ones, I feel nothing. I fall asleep all the time. Yeah. And it's probably at the end of the third year, I started to actually slow down, I'm liking the smaller movements. Really got so absorbed into it.

有时我需要些变化，就会转向更具动态性的动作，以避免过度沉溺某种状态。

And sometimes I want some change and then I need some more dynamic than to not be so absorbed into something.

能意识到这点非常深刻——初期那个感觉运动世界对我如此陌生，我无法做出区分，缺乏那种特定自我觉察的神经通路。但当我在外部世界活动时，就能通过不同的感觉系统来保持专注。

And I think that's really a profound thing to realize that at the beginning that sensory motor world was so new to me that I couldn't make distinctions. I didn't have all of those pathways of that particular way of paying attention to myself. But I could pay attention if I was more out in the world and moving. So I was paying attention to different sensory systems.

嗯。所以你认为自己最初也是这样的吗？你的物理治疗背景是否让你更倾向于用认知方式连接身体？

Yeah. So would you say you also started like your background is in PT and you probably started with a more cognitive way of connecting with your body? Yeah,

当然。绝对的。对你来说这个过程是怎样的

absolutely. Absolutely. How was the process for you to

进入感知世界的体验如何？

going into the sensing world?

我曾与许多ATM机较劲过，但话说回来，那时我还年轻，所以总能硬着头皮搞定几台。不过这种方法最让我欣赏的是，即便当时动作质量不高，仍有些深刻的东西在滋养我的系统——毕竟我本非舞者出身。光是让我尝试各种体位，比如头朝下穿过缝隙，骨盆和头部以各种空间方位扭转，有时甚至分不清上下。你明白我的意思吗？

There were so many ATMs that I struggled with, you know, but again, I was probably younger, so I could push my way through a few, you know? And you know, that that's what I love about the method though, that even though I wouldn't have been in the greatest quality, there was something still feeding into my system that was really profound because I hadn't been a mover per se. So simply for me to have to get in all of those different orientations. You know to have my head upside down and through the gap and you know, my pelvis and head in so many different orientations in space, even though sometimes I didn't know where I was. Do you know what I mean?

我认为这仍在向我的系统输入前所未有的海量信息。我们现在对客户做的正是这种引导。懂吗？这就是引发焦虑的根源（如果你愿意这么说），也是'我不够好'这种认知的形成机制。

It was, I think that was still feeding an incredible amount of information into my system that I hadn't had before. And these are the calls we're making with our clients. Do you know what I mean? It's, what brings on, anxiety if you like in people. What brings on that learning, that I'm not good enough.

'我做不到'、'我感受不到'——而作为从业者，我们要如何让人获得胜任感？

I can't do this. I can't feel. And what do we as the practitioner have to do to make the person feel competent?

这种胜任感首先需要从你自身生发。你已经走过了部分旅程。

And they sort of come from you feel competent first. You have gone through some part of the journey.

完全正确。所以你会意识到这对人们是段真实的旅程。我常对客户说：当他们进门时若处于'我真的很开心'的状态，首先能给我是非分明的回答就很好了。

Absolutely. So you realise it's a real journey for people. One of the things I'll often say to clients if they come in and they're really feeling, I'm really happy first of all, if they can give me a yes, no answer.

比如你觉得右边比左边容易吗？对。

Like do you feel it's easier right than the left? Yeah.

确实如此。即便他们回答'没感觉有差别'也很棒——这说明他们还不清楚要感知什么。那我该引导他们关注什么呢？

Absolutely. Absolutely. And even then they'll go, oh no, it doesn't feel any different. But that's great for me because I know they've got no sense of what they're looking for. So what can I get them to start to pay attention to?

我常对他们说：听着，我的职责就是帮你搭建我们将要使用的感知语言体系。

And I'll often say to them, okay, this is my role. This is my role to start to build up this, language for you that we're going to be using.

是啊是啊，我的比喻。

Yeah, yeah. My analogy.

因为这是

Because it's

你说的是词汇。我也用这个比喻。我另一个比喻就像杂货店给你提供晚餐的不同食材，然后你可以带回家烹饪。

you're saying vocabulary. I use that analogy too. And my another analogy is like a grocery store giving you different ingredients for your dinner and then you can bring them home to cook your meal.

完全正确。完全正确。所以我一开始就得填补所有这些空白。但话说回来，我知道通常如果我在那时把手放在他们身上，真正让他们慢下来。可能是转动他们的头。

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I have to fill in all those gaps for a start. But again, I know that usually if I put my hands on them at that point and really slow them down. So it might be turning their head.

对。然后他们会说，哦，不，感觉不到任何不同。但如果我把手放在他们头上，就说，让我们做一个非常小的动作。你在那里感觉到了什么？然后我可以吸引他们的注意力，但动作必须很小。

Yeah. And they go, oh, no, don't feel any difference. But if I put my hands on their head and just go, let's just do a really small movement. What do you feel there? And then I can draw their attention, but it needs to be small.

动作必须又慢又小。所以他们已经在学习，要有这种注意力空间，他们必须放慢速度。

It needs to be slow and small. So they're already learning that to have that attentional space, they have to slow down.

也许我们可以退一步。关于感觉自信这部分，我觉得我和一些同学在讨论时仍然感到挣扎，尤其是在进行功能整合时。甚至到毕业那天，我们可能某天突然觉得，哦，我们感觉到了什么。我觉得这次治疗做得很好。我终于有所进展了。

Maybe we can have a step back. This part of feeling confident, I think it's still a struggle for me and some of my classmates when we talk about it, especially about doing function integration. Think even by graduation, it would be like one day we're like, oh, we feel something. I feel this session I did was really good. I finally got something going.

然后下一周我们遇到不同的客户，或者客户有不同的反馈，啊，我不知道我在做什么，也不知道该怎么做。我真的在怀疑自己。

And the next week we see a different client or the client had a different feedback that, ah, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know what to do. I'm really doubting myself.

我觉得这很正常。再说一次，我觉得那时你如何运用你的学习技巧？你知道，所以你做完一次治疗后说，嗯，那次效果不太好。然后就是，我在开始之前没有了解这个人的哪些信息？我本可以收集哪些对他们和我都有价值的信息？

I think that's pretty normal. And again, I think how do you use your learning skills then at that point? You know, So that you do a session and you go, well that didn't work that well. And then it's well, what was it that I didn't find out about the person before I started? What information could I have gathered that would have been valuable not only to them but to me?

也许我把他们放在了一个不适合他们学习的位置。他们太拘束了。你明白我的意思吗？或者他们没有足够的可能性。也许，你知道我只是在这里举例，但我觉得很有趣的是，很多人一开始就想做屈曲课程。

So maybe I put them in a position that just wasn't a good one for them to learn in. They were too stuck. Do you know what I mean? Or they were They didn't have enough possibility there. Maybe, you know I'm just giving examples here but you know I find it really interesting that a lot of people will wanna do a flexion lesson to start with.

当他们观察这个人时，如果他们看着这个人，所以我决定进行一节屈曲课程。那么这个人在坐姿中如何屈曲？站立时又如何？因为如果他们想大幅度后仰来屈曲，若他们正在锻炼背部，桌子就会成为障碍。因为你确实...

When they look at the person, if they looked at the person, so I've decided to do a flexion lesson. So how does this person flex in sitting? How do they do it in standing? Because if they want to move a lot of backwards to flex, the table is going to get in the way if they're working on their back. Because you're really.

所以如果这个人有潜力，那可能是件大事。这是一个很好的限制条件，能让他们感受其他弯曲方式。但你知道，也许在这侧进行弯曲会更好，那里有更多可能性让他们改变体态，前后上下活动。如我所说，即使在基洛纳培训后，我们本可以在这方面做得更多，但一次培训能涵盖多少内容呢？我认为关键在于实践。

So if the person's got possibilities that could be a big thing. It's a great constraint to get them to feel other ways of bending. But you know, maybe it would have been better to do bending on this side where you've got more possibilities for them to change their shape and to go backwards and forwards and up and down. So as I said, I still, and it's probably still even with the Kelowna training, we probably could have done more on that, but how much can you fit into a training? And I think it's practice.

你终究需要走出去实践。开始自己解决这些难题。要能够开始说'这方法不行'，为什么不行？而不是立刻归咎于自己，而是思考'或许我没有充分观察这个人的需求'。

You just can't get over getting out there and having to practice. And to begin to solve these puzzles for yourself. You know, and to be able to begin to say that didn't work. Why didn't it work? And rather than immediately putting it all on yourself, but to go maybe I didn't look enough at what this person needs.

是的。人们很容易陷入'我本该怎么做'的思维模式，处于这种行动导向的思考中，而非观察、倾听或审视。

Yeah. I think it's easy to think what should I have done in this do or not doing moments, in this action mode of thinking rather than thinking, listening or looking, observing.

没错。这非常重要，因为这正是我们在ATM（动觉意识训练）中学习的内容——倾听。因为倾听本身就是一种组织方式，如同好奇心是一种组织方式那样。

Yes. And you know that's a really big one because that's what we're learning to do in ATM. That's all the listening. Cause again, listening is an organisation. Just like curiosity is an organisation, so is listening.

我们通常宽泛地使用'组织'这个词，但我想你我明白它有更具体的含义——你的身体组织方式，包括你如何组织注意力、自我形象和关系。这是你可以感知并改变的。

We use this word organisation really generally, but I think you and me know we have a more concrete meaning, which is your bodily organization, it's how you organize your attention, your self image, your relationship. It's something you can feel and you can change.

完全正确。确实存在更高效的组织方式。他在所有著作中都提到过：我能小幅前后移动的能力...

Absolutely. And there's definitely more efficient ways of being organised. We know that. He wrote about it in all of his books. Ability that I can move a little bit forward and back.

左右移动。我的骨骼承担了对抗重力的主要工作。我的肌张力更均衡。我能转移重心。他提供了非常具体的方法来理解'我如何知道自己组织得更好'，而对我来说更重要的是：随着这种进步，我如何感受到自我形象的扩展。

Left and right. That my skeleton, is doing most of the work counteracting gravity. That I've got more even toners. That I can shift my weight. He gives us very very concrete ways of understanding how I know I'm better organised and for me on top of that is how do I feel my self image expanding as I get that.

对他而言，自我形象是非常具体的概念。因此，我热爱以费登奎斯从业者身份与人合作，因为这正是费登奎斯对我的意义：观察他们如何组织自己想做的事——无论是登机旅行这样的简单动作，还是参加求职面试，或成为更好的跑者。

Again self image for him was very concrete. So, I love that idea of working with someone as a Feldenkrais practitioner because this is what Feldenkrais is to me. On how they're organising whatever it is they want to do. Whether it's to get on a plane and fly to somewhere. It can be as simple as that or I've got to do a job interview or I want to be a better runner.

所有这些都回归到：你是如何组织的？你如何思考？对我而言最关键的是——不知道你是否也如此——因为我的动觉感知曾非常差，想象对我来说就像雷区。他会说'现在换另一侧想象'，而我完全无法运作。

All of those things are very much coming back to how are you organised? How do you think? And I think the biggest one for me don't know whether this is similar for you because my kinaesthetic sense was so poor, imagining was just a mind field for me. You know? And he would say, know, oh and you'll imagine it on the other side and I'm Not working.

你会比另一边做得更好。而我这么做不是为了自己。不是为了我。没效果。没效果。

You will It'll be better than the other side. And I'm going, not for me. Not for me. Not working. Not working.

因为我当时不明白他说的想象是什么意思。对我来说，在ATM课程中想象时，我尚未建立起另一侧动作的运动模板。我把注意力转移到了你身上——啊对，我的头和肩膀以及骨盆——但我实际上并没有它们在空间中相对运动的三维模板。我花了很长时间才逐渐掌握这个。

Because I didn't understand what he meant by imagining. So for me imagining, in the ATM, I hadn't built up the movement template for what I'd been doing on the other side. I'd shifted my attention to you, ah yeah my head and my shoulder and my pelvis but I hadn't actually got a three d template of how they were all moving relative to each other in space. That took a long time for me to be able to develop.

因为缺乏这些想象的素材，所以想象就变得很空洞。所以

Because you don't have those materials for imagination then imagination is pretty empty. So

我以前必须想象自己正在做这个动作。

I used to have to imagine seeing me doing it.

对。但要

Right. But to

通过动觉来感受动作时，我掌握的信息量远远不够。我甚至不知道应该关注哪些信息才能获得这些感受。所以不仅是缺乏信息，更关键的是我不知道该关注什么才能获取这些信息。

be in my kinesthetic sense to do it. I just didn't have enough information. I wasn't looking for the information. So it wasn't just that I didn't have it. I didn't know what I should have been attending to that was going to give it to me.

那么当你刚开始练习功能整合时，是否也经历过这种困惑的阶段？

So when you just started your own FI practice, did you have that confusion phase of puzzlement too?

我觉得，早期能坚持下来部分原因是我有物理治疗背景。这确实有帮助。但当我转向纯粹练习费登奎斯时，我认为首先是得益于我的学习能力——不是说我要学很多，而是我对自己的学习者身份有清晰的认知。

I think, you know, I think part of what got me through those early days was that I did have a physio background. There's no question that made a difference. But when I was moving into just doing Feldenkrais, I think it was my ability that first of all my learning ability and I don't mean I had a lot to learn. But I had a good image of myself as a learner. Even Okay.

尽管可能只停留在认知层面

Though it might have only been in the cognitive

明白了。

world. Okay.

你知道，在我的自我认知中，我曾觉得自己能学会这个。

You know, there was something in my self image that I sort of thought I can learn this.

你有信心吗？我可以

You have the confidence? I can

学会这个。是的，我有信心。这个说法很贴切。我对自己的学习能力有信心去真正掌握它，而这正是最困难的地方。要知道，如果你带的学员缺乏自信，你需要引导他们找到自己世界中的信心所在。

learn this. Yeah, I had the confidence. That's a good way of putting it. I had the confidence in my learning ability to actually learn it which and that's where it gets really difficult. Know, if you've got trainees who don't have a lot of confidence and you've got to key them into where do you feel confidence in your world.

什么是你擅长的事情？我过去很喜欢费登奎斯用如此平凡的例子——你会有困难走到门前并转动门把手吗？这是你学会的技能，无需思考。

What is something that you know that you do well? And I used to love that Feldenkrais would use something as prosaic. Do you have any trouble going to the door and opening the door handle? You learn to do that. You don't have to think about it.

明白吗？而且你具备这样的能力：如果门打不开，你会停下来尝试不同的方法。你不会站在门前就直接放弃说‘这门打不开’。大多数人都会尝试几种开门的方式。但当我们内心缺乏安全感时，就不会尝试其他选择，只会默认‘我不擅长这个’。

You know? And you've got the skills that if the door doesn't open, that you stop and you try different things. If you're at the door, you just don't get there and go, oh, this door won't open. You know, most of us would try a few options for how the door might open or whereas when we're feeling in a place that we don't feel that inner security, we don't try options. You know, we just default to, I'm no good at this.

这正是ATM（费登奎斯动中觉察）的美妙之处——当你构建不同的ATM动作库时，每个动作都能以具有挑战性的方式让你学习，并保持作为学习者的自信。

And that's the beauty of ATM as just as you're doing as you're building your reper repertoire of different ATMs you can come to and learn in each of those is challenging ways in which you learn and ways in which you can keep that confidence in yourself as a learner.

好的，我要问个有点挑战性的问题。物理治疗师毕业时会有更多‘食谱式’方案——知道这种情况就做这个评估，然后按流程处理。所以不会像费登奎斯领域这样充满困惑或在黑暗中探索。你们毕业时仍感觉一无所知，永远有新事物，面对的是完全开放的领域。

Okay, I'm going to ask a little bit of a challenging question. Maybe for PT, when you graduate, you have a lot more recipe book to know this is the case, I do this assessment and then I prescript this thing. So you won't have quite such a confusion or exploring in the dark versus in the Feldenkrais world. You graduate, but you still feel like you know nothing. There are always new things and you're just facing this whole open field.

从客户角度看，他们会想：你真的在学校学够了吗？我该信任你吗？而我们自己有时也有类似怀疑。

So like from clients perspective, they're like, did you really learn enough from your school? Should I trust you? And we have a similar doubt too sometimes. Yeah.

我认为这时你必须回归已知领域。刚开始时，我对如何实现力传导很明确——当然不是说那是世界上最好的力传导方式

And I think that's where you've got to keep bringing it back to what you know. So I think when I first started I felt pretty clear on how I could get forced transmission. I'm not saying it was the best forced transmission

好吧。你懂的吧？

in the world. Okay. You know?

但我曾以为那是我可以在自身稍加组织的事情。很长一段时间里，我不太在站立状态下进行自我练习，因为我觉得站立时不够协调。不过我很早就学会了如何为他人调整姿势以便他们更容易活动。这仅仅是因为我在ATM课程中学到——如果骨盆无法移动，整堂课就毫无意义。

But I sort of thought that wasn't that was something I could organize a little bit in myself. For a long time I didn't do a lot of working with me in standing because I didn't feel that organised in standing. So but I learnt pretty early on how to set up someone so that it was easier for them to move. That was just something because I'd learnt for myself in ATM that if I'm in a position where my pelvis can't move just forget the rest of the lesson. Nothing's gonna happen.

这是我真正理解的根本原则：系统必须存在可能性才能产生变化。正如我所说，很多这方面的认知来自观察费登奎斯进行功能整合——他总在寻找那个可以切入并重新组织身体的起始点。这与物理治疗理念完全不同。

So that was something really fundamental that I did understand. That I have to have possibility in the system for something to happen. And as I said I learned a lot of that from watching Feldenkrais do Fi and seeing that he was constantly looking for where was the point. Where someone I could begin to go in and organize them from. So that was not anything to do with physio.

我们从未那样思考过。物理治疗的好处在于它训练我专注于具体部位，而能宏观视角看待问题反而是种恩赐。我掌握了些细节技巧，刚毕业时总试图添加更多元素来提醒自己：不能只关注局部，这不仅仅是关于某个人的颈部问题。

That we never thought that way. So I think the good thing about physio was that I'd been so trained in you just looking at specific things that it was such a blessing to look at the big picture. So I sort of had some of the details. What I was trying to do when I first graduated was put more bits in to keep looking at I can't just think of the detail. This isn't about someone's neck.

如果只是颈部问题，松动关节就能治愈。对吧？但费登奎斯让我困惑的正是这点——为什么这些人需要反复治疗？显然有些深层机制我尚未理解。

If it was just about their neck that you could mobilise it and they'd be better. Yeah? Because that was always the thing that intrigued me in Feldenkrais. Why do these people have to keep coming back? There's something that I'm not understanding that they have to keep coming back.

人们会反复求诊？

People keep coming back?

同样的主诉：'我脖子还是疼'。到底需要多少次治疗才能解决？实际上改善有限。当时我完全不懂整体观，不过确实理解力线传导原理，知道要让患者进入能够启动动作的状态。

With the same thing. Oh my neck is still sore. Oh how many sessions do I need to do to mobilise this person's neck or their shoulder And nothing's really changing a lot. So I had no idea to look at that bigger picture. But as I said I sort of did understand forced transmission and I did understand getting people in a place where movement could begin to go through.

最初我只能通过四肢开展工作，因为躯干对我而言完全是个谜——

Initially I had to do a lot through the limbs because the torso was just a mystery to

明白了。

me. Okay.

纯粹的谜团。所以我更倾向于从四肢开始逐步向中心推进。当我意识到必须从自己理解的领域入手时...

Just a mystery. So I would tend to much more work through the limbs coming into the centre. So I think yeah, once I got the idea that I had to sort of come from what I understood.

是啊，这就像把费登奎斯体系模块化了——人们可以通过各种方式接触它，而你选择了最熟悉自信的部分。

Yeah, it's almost like you are compartmentalising the world of Feldenkrais like people can approach it in so many different ways but you pick the parts that you are familiar and confident with.

我认为这正是让你持续进步的原因。你知道，有些事情需要反复强调，虽然我经常引用费登奎斯的话，但这个理念是：从你的优势出发，而非弱点。

And that's what I think allows you to keep improving. You know, there's something about, again and again, I know I quote Feldenkrais a lot, but this idea of go from your strengths, not your weaknesses.

是啊是啊。我觉得我们需要先重新学习如何对待自己，再学会如何对待他人。我的学生总说，这个ATM动作太难了，下一个也好难，我好沮丧。

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the way we kind of need to relearn how to treat ourselves then how to treat others. When I have students, they're like, Oh, this ATM is so difficult. Oh, the next one is so difficult too. Oh, I'm so frustrated.

我就告诉他们，选一个或某个你能享受的ATM动作部分，对你来说简单的部分。

I'm like, pick one or maybe one part of the ATM that you can enjoy it. It's easy for you

只需专注于

to just be

非常挑剔地选择。

very picky.

这很棒。一旦他们找到那个点，就能开始关注：哦，这个简单的部分，我的呼吸在这里很顺畅，我能在地面上稍微移动一下。

It's great. It's great. And for them, once they find that, then they can begin to maybe attend to, oh, that one bit that's easy. Oh, my breathing is really easy here. Oh, I can move across the ground a little bit here.

明白我的意思吗？我的头更自由了。这样他们就能开始。有点像你初次练习时，试图推动脚部，试图移动别人的骨盆。

Do you know what I mean? My head is freer. So that they can begin. It's a little bit like when you're first, I think when you're first practicing and you're trying to push through a foot. You're Do trying to move someone's pelvis.

你甚至不知道自己在寻找什么。这就是为什么在培训中，我会大量协助学员，让他们感受寻找的目标——即便无法复制，也能获得具体体验：这就是你要找的感觉。就像我推脚部时突然通了，就能顺势调整。

You don't even know what it is you're looking for. It's why often when I'm in trainings I go and really help out a lot with people and more just to give them the feel of what they're looking for. Even if they can't reproduce it, that they're getting that concrete experience of this is what you're looking for. So I think there's something within, you know, I'm pushing through a foot, pushing through a foot and oh, it goes through. And so I sort of jig along.

哦，还不错。然后我可以精进：啊，现在可能建立了连接，虽然还比较生硬。接着观察髋部或膝盖发生了什么变化？

Oh, that's pretty good. But then I can refine it. Then I can go, ah, now maybe I've got that connection. It's a bit boom, boom, boom. Maybe I can see, well, what is happening in the hip or what's happening in the knee?

脚踝又是什么状态？是的。但这关乎我进行ATM练习时，比如通过脚部推对侧。一旦建立这种连接，就能真正开始填充细节，理解是什么让动作更轻松。同样要明白，根据自我意象的不同，我的头可能会后仰或偏向某侧。

What's happening in the ankle? Yeah. But that's about me doing ATM and maybe you know doing an ATM where I'm pushing through my foot to the opposite. And once I get that connection through, that then I can really start to put all the detail in for myself about what's making that easier. And again, to understand that, you know, for me to do it, my head might go back that way or my head might wanna go this way depending on the bits in my self image.

是的。所以每个人的做法会略有不同。但我知道自己在逐步扩展——获得更多长度、更多宽度、更多三维形态。

Yeah. So that everyone's gonna do it a little bit differently. But I know that I'm gradually including. I'm getting more length, more width, more three d shape.

你正在拓展自我意象。

You're expanding your self image.

完全正确。但我认为多数人初次尝试功能性整合时确实会遇到两个挫折点：首先是无法完成动作连贯性，这通常是...

Absolutely. But I do think that most people are frustrated honestly. Two things in when they first do FI. The first is they can't get the movement through. I think that's the

第一个问题。

first one.

对我来说这主要是体位问题。他们没把学员调整到既感到安全（安全意味着有活动可能性而不觉困住）的位置。其次是学员需要在自己的动中觉察练习中学会自我提问，而非完全依赖引导者指挥注意力。

And for me most of that is positioning. They just have not got the person in a position where either the person feels safe and safety always means they've got possibilities to move. That they don't feel stuck. And the second thing is that they've actually learned in their own ATM practice to ask questions of their own process. To not have had to rely solely on the facilitator to direct their attention.

但他们确实找到了在动中觉察中自主引导注意力的方法。

But they've really found that way of directing their own attention within the ATM.

没错。我认为学习的重要里程碑就是：何时开始在ATI过程中自发提问而非等待引导。

Yeah, yeah. That's I think definitely milestone for my learning is what time I start to find during the ATI I am asking questions myself instead of waiting for the Absolutely.

那时你才算真正上路了。

And that's when you are well on the journey.

是的。说实话你之前问我如何选择客户——目前我倾向于能自主活动的成年人，最好是具备自我觉察意识，更有提问好奇心的人。这类学员对方法反应良好，总能给予反馈。

Yeah. And honestly I think that's You were asking me how do I choose my client or am I focusing on certain kind of clientele? So far, it would be adults who can move, and I prefer to meet people who have some sense in their self, and even better is they have the curiosity to ask questions. I would find those students that they can respond to the methods pretty well. Always they can give me some feedback.

而那些与身体连接薄弱又不感兴趣，只想让你处理症状的人，我总觉得...这很棘手。

And then for people who are rarely connecting with their body and they are not interested, they just want you to treat something. I always feel, oh it's difficult.

是的，我认为他们是那种无法感知自我的人。在FI工作时你会很快意识到这点——你提问时，他们毫无反应。关键在于将他们调整到能活动的姿势，让整个身体协调起来。因为任何人只要全身动起来，都会感受到巨大差异。

Yeah, and I think they are the type of people those ones who don't sense themselves. Where it's you don't when you're working in FI you learn very quickly that they don't sense. You ask a question. It's like no, it's not making any difference. They're the ones that it's really important you get them in a position where they can move and that you can get their whole body, their whole self organised because anyone who gets up I would say, and they've had their whole self moving is going to feel a big difference.

就像他们惯常姿势与全身协调运动姿势之间的差别。那是...

Like just the difference between their usual position and the position where they can move with their whole self. That's a

他们会感受到内在变化，即便无法言说。当这种变化发生后，你必须非常小心——一旦让他们做动作，他们可能瞬间又回到局部动作模式。这时我作为指导者就要提醒：记得课程中全身准备移动的感觉吗？如果加上骨盆会怎样？

And they're going to feel something internal different, even if they can't, put it into language. That there's something happened. And then once you've got them up then it's like you've got to be really careful that when you go back to getting them to do something that and you say, ah, they've immediately flipped back to losing that big picture again. But that's me as the practitioner then has to come in and say, ah, remember in the lesson and you had a feeling that all of you was ready to move? So what happens if you include your pelvis?

我会用手轻缓地引导他们：感受到重量转移了吗？骨盆动了吗？两边肩膀有什么不同？

I might have my hands on them really slowing them down. You know what happens? Does your weight shift? Does your pelvis move? What happens in one shoulder, the other one?

所以必须不断引导他们体会：这和局部动作完全不同

So again, you've got to bring them back to getting that sense of, ah, this is very different to this.

整体运动相对于...

The global movement versus the

完全正确。对某些人来说，仅做局部动作就像要重组他们的世界那么困难

Absolutely. Absolutely. And for people that can be, you know, it's such a challenge if they're Because to organize your world to just do this.

只动头部时...

Just move the head when

躺着局部动作和全身运动截然不同，这是两种完全不同的自我参与方式。作为引导者，我们必须持续观察并适时给予提示

I'm Yeah, laying it's very different to doing this. It's a whole different way of engaging with yourself, with the world around you. And often, we know that. Then as the facilitator we have got to check. We have got to put some thoughts in there for them.

一旦发现理解偏差，我们必须立即纠正。立即

But as soon as we see it doesn't make sense we have got to come back. Come back

到你所在的位置。朱莉，我想把问题反问你。刚开始的时候，你是否选择专门服务某些类型的客户？

to where you are. Julie, I want to ask the question back to you. When you just started, did you choose to specialise in certain clientele?

很大程度上是客户主动找上门的。所以从一开始，我接待的大多是已经尝试过很多其他治疗方式的人。

Look a lot of it was the clientele who were coming to me. So generally right from the beginning, I probably saw a lot of people who had been to a lot of other people.

最后他们发现了费登奎斯这个奇怪的名字。

And they finally find this weird name Feldenkrais.

他们听说有个叫费登奎斯的方法。明白我的意思吗？这些人往往尝试过很多其他疗法。这对我很有价值，因为这本来就不是速效疗法。

And they heard there's something called Feldenkrais or something. Do you know what I mean? So they probably tried a lot of other things. So that was really valuable for me. Because again it wasn't gonna be a quick fix.

他们知道这不是立竿见影的，毕竟已经试过不少方法了。这让我觉得——我挺喜欢当个侦探的角色。这种解谜的过程很适合我的思维方式，会促使我更深入思考：这个人到底没理解什么？不仅仅是身体意象的问题，虽然我们确实在构建这个。

They knew it wasn't gonna be a quick fix, because they'd probably already tried quite a few things. And so that I really felt you know, I like being a bit of a detective. You know, that suits my brain, you know, to try and solve a bit of a puzzle. So that probably made me think a little bit more, about what is it that this person doesn't understand. And not just in their image, know, because that we're building that.

我们就是在构建他们的身体意象。但他们没理解哪些基础原理？比如骨盆如何与头部相连？他们缺乏哪些基本认知？懂我意思吗？他们需要能朝更多方向活动，或者头部需要更放松...正因为他们有动作障碍，反而更容易看出他们缺失的能力。

That's what we're building, their image. But what don't they understand about basics of their pelvis being connected to their head? What don't they understand about basics? Do you know what I mean? That they've got to be able to move in a few more directions or their head has to get a bit freer or So because they had movement difficulties in a way it was easier to see what they didn't have.

反而是那些动作协调的人让我更吃力。他们在团体课表现很好，但在一对一指导时可能就不那么理想了。

Whereas people who moved really well was a bit more of a struggle for me. Good in ATM, great in ATM, but not probably so much in FI.

因为当你发现哪里不能动时，那就是起点

Because when you see where it can't move that's the starting point

只要发现某个部位不能动，我就能开始思考：还有什么可以动起来为它创造活动空间？让它有可以移动的余地。这很好，因为我从物理治疗经验知道，强行让僵硬的部位活动是行不通的。我喜欢这种挑战。

as soon as I can see something is not moving I can begin to go, Oh well what else could begin to move to give it the space to move? To give it the you know that it's got somewhere where it can move. And that was really good because I knew from my physio background that it wouldn't work just by making it try and move. The space that wasn't moving. So I liked a bit of a challenge.

而且我的客户大多愿意进行多次疗程。所以我不需要急于证明自己。每当我陷入需要证明自己的心态时，结果往往不太理想——不该说灾难这么严重，但会让我感到力不从心，因为像是在强行说服对方。

I also, most of my clients were quite prepared to have a few sessions. So I didn't feel I had to prove myself. If ever I got into having to prove myself it was usually a bit of a disaster. Not a disaster I shouldn't say that. But I felt incompetent because I felt like I was trying to convince them.

我认为我们总是有这种感觉。不仅仅是‘我是个善于学习的人，我可以逐渐了解情况并帮助你’。但客户总是抱有期待。而我们也对他们的反馈有所期待。我们希望他们的反馈是这样的，真的很难放下这种执念。

I think we always feel this way. It's not just, I'm a good learner, I can gradually learn what's going on, help you. But there is always expectation from the clients. Then we have expectation of what their feedback should be. We want their feedback to It's be this and really hard to let that go.

这确实很难，我想这又回到了要非常清楚自己作为费登奎斯从业者的角色。我到底想给人们带来怎样的体验？并不是要修复什么。所以我认为从一开始就要设定好框架——这是我后来逐渐更擅长的事。要明确告诉他们这是一个学习的过程。

It is really hard and I think then it's coming back to getting really clear what I do as a Feldenkrais practitioner. What is it that I'm trying to give a person an experience of? And it's not to fix something. It's really So it's setting it up I think right from the beginning which is something that I grew to get much better at. Of really making it clear to them that this was a learning situation.

我们是在共同探索正在发生的事情。

And that we together were looking at discovering what was happening.

但我花了

But it took me

一段时间才达到那个境界。因为那不符合我的物理治疗背景。所以我收集的信息越多——可能第一节课就只做这个。

a while to get to that point. Because that was not my physio background as So that the more information I gathered, And that might be all I am doing in the first lesson. It

更像是你引入一些动作，询问他们的反馈，然后需要关注他们的感知。

will be more like you maybe introduce some movements and you ask for them their feedback then you need to give attention on their sensing.

没错。你知道，如果他们是因颈部疼痛而来，就要处理他们正在做的动作。明白我的意思吗？但我们真正关注的是：让我们看看能否探索——你身体其他部位是否有什么动作导致那里负担过重？使你持续把压力施加在那里？

Yeah. And you know, doing it very, you know, if they did come in with a sore neck, addressing whatever they were doing. Do you know what I mean? But you know, what we are looking at is, let's see if we can explore, Is there something you're doing with the rest of yourself that there's too much happening there? That you keep putting the stress there?

那么在您的意象中还有什么能支撑这个部位？这种措辞——别误会，我当初也没有这样的表达——是随着实践发展逐渐形成的。但当我引导他们进入这种状态时，效果截然不同。因为这样我就很有信心，因为我们是在共同探索。

So what else could support that in your image? And this wording, don't get me wrong, I didn't have this wording back yet. That's just grown as practiced and developed. But it makes such a difference when I get them into that. Because then I feel pretty confident because we are exploring this together in a way.

所以他们能感受到我的状态，因为在这种状态下我很踏实。当我不试图修复什么时。所以这又回到了自我组织。如果我试图证明什么，我的状态就不好。我已经能感觉到自己这里缩紧了，想着‘这些东西真的很棒，我要向你证明它有多好’。

So then they feel in me because in that place I feel secure. When I'm not trying to fix something. So again it's the organisation. If I'm trying to prove something my organisation is not good. I can already feel I've sort of shortened down in here and yeah, this stuff's really good and I'm gonna prove to you how good it is.

所以我必须保持这种自我运用的状态，才能支撑他们做到。这样人们自然就会信任你。他们不觉得你需要无所不知，但从你的身体运用中他们能读出：你对正在做的事有着足够的胜任力和信心。这很有意思。

So I need to be in this self use place In myself to be able to hold that they can. Then people just trust you. They don't feel you have to know everything but they're reading from your self use that you feel you've got some competence and confidence in what you're doing. Interesting.

我们回到这个信任的世界。

We come back to this world of trust.

我

I

起初我在想，如果你直接告诉客户，我们不是修复，我不做承诺，我当时很害怕你，我们只是探索。他们会觉得，我为什么需要这个？如果这么开放，我可能一无所获，就像，怀疑可能多于信任。

think at first I was thinking if you just tell the clients like, we're not fixing, I'm not promising, I was so fearful of you, we're just exploring. They'd be like, why do I need that? If it's just so open ended, I might get nothing out of it, like, There might be more doubt than trust.

但这就是你需要用语言引导他们的地方。你必须让他们快速行动起来。因为这就是我们的工作。正如我一开始说的，要从简单的上下观察中注意到这种差异。

But that's where you have to put them into the language. That's where you have to get them into movement pretty quickly. Because that's what we do. That's what we do. Just as I said to begin to notice that difference in something as simple as looking up and down.

你如何与周围世界互动？你如何与内心空间互动？哪一个对你来说更陌生？但如我所言，我很幸运，因为我接触的很多人已经长期在某个问题上挣扎。

How do you interact with the world around you? How do you interact with your internal space? Which one of those is more unknown to you? But as I said I was lucky because a lot of people I was seeing already had something that they've been struggling with probably.

所以他们更有耐心去

So they have more patience to

完全正确。好在他们仍怀有希望。他们仍相信事情可以不同。所以没有放弃希望。实际上仍对尝试新事物保持开放。

Absolutely. And the good thing is they've still got hope. They've still got hope that something can be different. So they haven't given up hope. They are still actually in the process of being open to trying something.

但我很早就明白，试图说服完全封闭的人毫无意义。

So but I learnt very early on there's no point trying to convince someone who's already in a place of no openness.

我觉得这几乎反直觉，或者说，主流服务营销方式是承诺效果，比如在某个时间内达成某个结果。而我们不这样做。我不知道这是否是部分从业者难以仅靠费登奎斯疗法维持生计的原因。你感受到这种张力了吗？

I think that's almost counter intuitive or, what is it? Like the mainstream of how we market a service is to promise you some results and you achieve this result within this timeframe. And we don't do that. And I don't know if that would be part why some practitioners are struggling to sustain themselves with just a pure Feldenkrais practice. Do you feel the tension here?

是啊，

Yeah,

是的，我完全认同。因为我认为关键在于明确我作为费登奎斯从业者的工作内容。一旦我清楚自己与其他人的区别——不同于物理治疗师、按摩师的工作方式，也不同于普拉提或其他身体训练方法，甚至不同于心理学家的干预手段。

I do. I absolutely do. Cause again, I think it's getting that clarity about what I do as a Feldenkrais practitioner. And once I get that clarity about what I do, different to what other people do, different to what physios do, different to what massage people do. You know, we're talking about different to Pilates, different to those other, if you like, physical modalities or different to what psychologists do.

不同于...你明白我的意思吗？我可以进入任何这些理论框架，但只有当我明确自己的工作本质后，才能更轻松地向特定群体阐述——清晰地说明我的工作内容及其价值：这就是费登奎斯方法能为你提供的。

Different to Do you know what I mean? You can go into any of those frameworks and I get clear about what I'm doing. Then I think it's much easier to go and present to a particular group and to be clear about what I do and this is what could offer. This is what the Feldenkrais Method could offer you.

所以你并非试图说服大众市场？实际上是在...

So you are not trying to convince the mass market? Are actually trying to

说实话这很困难。我发现更有效的方式是...记得刚开始时，任何邀约我都会接受演讲。面对不同群体时...

Well I found that really difficult. I found it much easier. So, you know, when I first started if anyone wanted me to talk I'd go and talk to them. Okay. And it was often quite different groups.

我很快领悟到必须了解他们的核心需求。无论是脑损伤患者、慢性疲劳群体还是运动俱乐部，关键在于发掘费登奎斯疗法能提供哪些其他方法无法给予的帮助。

And I learnt very quickly that I had to find out what was important for them. What they were struggling with. Do you know what I mean? So whether it was with people with head injuries obviously was very different to someone, to a group maybe with chronic fatigue or a group who wanted a sports club or you know. So it was what is it that I feel what we do as Feldenkrais practitioners can offer them that they're not going to get from other modalities.

对我而言最重要的是：我们将协助你自主判断最舒适的体验。不是以物理治疗师、普拉提或瑜伽教练的权威告诉你该怎么做。尤其对于疼痛患者，这种自主选择权至关重要——但要注意，费登奎斯所指的'舒适'并非单纯的安逸感，而是呼吸顺畅、

To me it was so much about the big thing for them, for so many people, was that we're going to work with you deciding what feels best for you. Not what I think as the physio you should be doing or I think as the pilates instructor you should be doing or I think as the yoga person is what you should be doing. But for so many people with pain especially, that ability that I can begin to decide what feels more comfortable for me. And being very clear that comfort as a Feldenkrais practitioner means still it's not, oh I feel comfortable'. It's comfort means my breathing is easy.

头盆连接协调、重心转移自如、运动时拥有更完整的身体意象。

I have a connection from my head to my pelvis. I can shift my weight. I have more of me in my image when moving.

高效组织带来的舒适感

Comfort from efficient organisation.

完全正确。我们正在颠覆许多固有认知。有趣的是，随着经验积累，我常这样开启对话：'我们都在追求更轻松舒适的生活——但该如何定义？依据是什么？'

Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're perturbing a lot of those ideas and, you know, it was really interesting if I often As I got better at it to go in and start a conversation with Well a lot of us are looking for things to be easier and comfortable. How do we decide that? What are we basing?

我们的判断依据究竟是什么？

What are we basing that on?

所以我想说，你真的很强调个人的主观能动性。

So I would say like you're really emphasising the agency of the person.

完全正确。完全正确。我特别喜欢看到人们练习费登奎斯或来上课时，真正领悟到他们仍在做普拉提，但这是他们自己的选择。你明白我的意思吗？他们会说，哦，我知道他们让我那样做，但我的脖子那时真的很紧绷，我无法正常呼吸。

Absolutely. Absolutely. So I really love it when people do Feldenkrais or they come for sessions and they really get that idea that they are still doing their Pilates but they're deciding. Do you know what I mean? They're going, oh, this is what oh, I know they told me to do that, but my neck's really tightening up then and I can't breathe properly.

然后，你知道，所以我需要关注什么才能让这件事对我来说更容易？这正是我们做得非常出色的地方。我们真的非常擅长这一点。赋予人们自主权。

And, you know, so what do I have to pay attention to that can make this easier for me to do? And that's what we do brilliantly. We really do that brilliantly. Give people agency.

是的，我直到听到学生的反馈才知道我在这样做，他们说，哦，前几天我去游泳时，我开始寻找让脖子更轻松的方法。开始应用他们从课程中学到的东西。

Yeah, I didn't know I was doing that until I hear students feedback saying, Oh, I went swimming the other day and I was looking for more ease of my neck. Start to apply what they learn from the lessons you someone

会

would

实际上 并且期待 而我

actually And expect and I

我认为自我调节对人们来说是一件大事。正如你所说，要信任他们的经验。因为我觉得我们大部分时间都在不信任自己的经验中度过。

I think that's a huge thing for people to self regulate. And as you were saying, to trust their experience. Because I think so much of our time is spent in not trusting your experience.

对。对。

Right. Right.

而别人会告诉你你的经验应该是什么。

And someone else is going to tell you what your experience should be.

你认为什么是强大的自我？你有定义吗？

What do you think is a potent self? Do you have a definition?

再次强调，我认为强大的自我效能感是我在需要时可以调用的力量。我并不期待自己每时每刻都充满能量。就像我也不想整天都保持高度警觉一样。

Again, you know, I think a potent self, potency for me is something I can call on when I need it. I don't expect to be potent every minute of my day. No? Just like I don't wanna be aware every minute of my day.

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

明白吗？所以这又回到了自我能动性的概念。但有些时刻，比如当我骑上自行车环湖而行时——看似平常的事——我会突然意识到：天啊，我正在突破自己的舒适区。

Know? So again, this is I suppose where this self agency comes in. But those times when something I think, ah, this could be I love it when I get on my bike, you know, and I'm riding around the lake. Something as innocuous as that and I go, oh my god. I'm pushing a bit here, you know.

这时我会扩散注意力：'茱莉，让你的胸骨漂浮起来'。这样我的肩膀就能更自由，腹部也能放松，双腿突然就能灵活运动。这不仅是胸骨漂浮，而是整个身体系统的协同运作。

And I just spread my attention. I go, ah, Julie, let your sternum float. And that for me lets my shoulders get freer and my belly release, you know. And all of a sudden my legs can move. And, so it's not just my sternum float, it's a whole organisation that can go with that, you know.

但这是因为我已经积累了足够多体验真实感受的经验。对我而言，效能感就是保持真实。

But it's because I've had enough experiences now of knowing what it feels to be authentic. Potency to me is being authentic.

上次有人问我时，我也是这么定义的。这其实更多关乎行动。我对于真实性的例子是：当别人邀请我参与某项计划，而那并非我真正想做的事时，我能否真实地向对方表达？

That was my definition when someone asked me this last time. So it's really more about just movement. And my example of authenticity is when other people ask me, can we plan to do this thing together? And this is not exactly what I want to do. And then can I be really authentic to express that to other people?

这是我最近才掌握的能力。

That's my recently gained currency.

我能看出，正如你现在所做的，你能做到是因为你处于动态变化中。明白我的意思吗？你不是...

And I can see just as you are doing that, you can do it because you are in a world of moving. Do you know what I mean? You are not.

困住的。

Stuck.

对，不是僵化的。所以对我来说，保持真实——我在基洛纳经常提到——就是当你掌握了那些我们在组织、学习、节奏调节和质量把控中追求的特定策略后，就能用对你真正有意义的方式真实地表达。即便是作为培训师，我们都会经历这种时刻：'天啊，我永远达不到他们的水平'。

Just stuck. So to be authentic to me is, you know, and I probably said this in Kelowna quite a bit, it's you get the strategies, this particular things that we're looking for in organisation, in learning, in rate regulating, quality, that then you can express that in your authentic way. In what has meaning for you. So that, you know, it's even being a trainer, you know, all of us go through it. You know, you go, oh my god, I'm never gonna be as good as them.

你知道吗？要么他们会看到我教学，然后发现我是个冒牌货。这些情况总是发生。好吧。对我来说，意识到这一点才是真实的部分开始显现的时候，那是我在那一刻对自己所做的事。

You know? Or they're gonna see me teach and I'm gonna be caught out as a fraud. All of that happens all the time. Okay. And it's realizing for me, this is where the authentic part comes in, where what I've done to myself in that moment.

因为这又回到了‘我不够好’的老路上。而当我找回一点力量时，我就能说，这种教学方式很有趣。虽然我不会这么做。所以会有一些摩擦产生。我认为我们需要一些摩擦、一些扰动来认识自己，通过与这些摩擦对抗来了解自我。

Because it's the I'm not good enough again. And I have to come out and go once I find a little bit more potency, I can go, that's an interesting way to teach. It's not what I would do. So, a little bit of a sort of rub comes on. So, I think it's really important that we need a bit of rub, a bit of perturbation to know who we are, to rub against that.

所以我现在热爱教学的原因就是做真实的自己。把我的热情投入到工作中，做对我重要的事。这也是为什么我们刚才讨论培训时，我认为费登奎斯培训最棒的地方在于你能遇到不同的老师。这非常重要，你能看到每个人都找到了他们真实存在的方式。

So the thing that I love about teaching now is just being myself. And just bringing my passion to the work, what's important for me. And that's why, you know, we were talking a little bit about trainings. You know, the best thing for me in Feldenkrais trainings is you get different teachers. That to me is just so important that you begin to see that everyone's found their way of being authentic.

我真的很高兴现在有更多培训模式出现。特别喜欢看到有人刚成为教育总监时的样子，他们会说‘我要这样做，我认为这样能让培训更好’。

And I really love that there's more training models out there at the moment. I really love that you know, I love when someone's first become an ED. You know? And it's like, I'm gonna do it this way. This is what I think would make a better training.

我欣赏这种态度。喜欢看他们经历这个过程——‘我觉得可以这样做’，然后通过实践观察哪些方法有效，哪些无效，不同学员群体的反应如何。

I love that. I love that they've been going through this process. You know? This is how I think it could be done. And then that they're gonna go through that process of seeing what works and what doesn't work and what happens with this group or what happens with that group.

就像我们在任何领域做的那样。但我特别珍视这种新鲜血液带来的活力，同时我们又能牢牢扎根于费登奎斯的工作体系之中。

Just the same as we do anywhere. Yeah. But I love that, excitement of new people coming along and at the same time that we really stay grounded in the works of Feldenkrais.

这引出了另一个问题：你认为费登奎斯方法是一个已经完备的体系，人们只是从莫谢的发现中提取资源？还是一个不断发展的方法论？

Yeah, so that brings to another question, is do you feel Feldenkrais method is something that's already complete, that people are just pulling out resource from what Moshe finds out, or is it something that is always progressing?

你看，我认为他留给我们的不是完成品。他给予的是我们自身。我觉得他的初衷是让我们成为自主学习者，成为自我调节的人。当我重读他的著作时，那些话语依然深深触动我。虽然神经科学和术语已经更新，但他对学习本质的理解从未过时。

See, well I don't think he gave us anything complete. I think he was giving us ourselves. You know, what I think he was after was that we become our own learners, we become our own self regulating people. So within I go back and read what he says, that still touches me incredibly. You know, I'm sure the neuroscience has changed, you know, and the language that we use now, the but I don't think the fundamentals of what he understood about learning have changed.

他对ATM（动中觉察）作为谜题的核心理念不会改变——你如何解开这个谜？要调动哪些资源？通过反复练习ATM，你被置于陌生情境时，仍要在此刻找到自我，发现自己的行为模式、阻碍所在，以及那些愚蠢的小毛病。

I don't think the fundamentals of what he understand understood about this is an ATM and this is a puzzle. How are you going to solve this puzzle? What are you going to do? What resources are you going to bring to bear here? And how through all these different things doing ATM and ATM and ATM are you going to be put into positions that you're not used to being put into And you still have to find yourself here and find what you do and how you get in your way and you know the stupid things.

在这些可能性中，你的大脑正学习将越来越多的自我部分纳入认知图谱，逐步完善这种内外部的空间联结。就我个人而言，这些根本不会改变。他留下的深刻洞见——即使现在读他的书，看他当时引用的科学理论，我仍觉得那些见解历久弥新。他当时试图用当时的科学解释自己的方法，并为新发现兴奋不已，这些发现改变了他的可能性视野，为工作提供了新视角。但最根本的东西从未改变。

Even within all of those possibilities your brain is learning how to include more and more parts of yourself in your image to gradually fill out, this spatial connection of both internally and externally and so I don't think any of that changes personally. I think the the very deep things he bought you know, I can read his books now and I can read where what he's bringing in with the science and I can go, yeah, that was relevant then. Yeah. He was he was at that time trying to explain what he was doing in terms of the science at the time and getting excited by new discoveries that were changing his possibilities, if you like, of hopefully, I think just giving him another perspective to work with in his work. But I don't think the fundamentals have changed.

就像对我而言，了解神经可塑性，了解这些知识，因为你知道，我是在费登奎斯（不是费登奎斯疗法）和生理学盛行的年代成长起来的。在我受训时，生理学还是个非常新的领域。当时人们才刚刚开始真正理解生理学，如果你愿意这么说的话。关于神经系统的生理学，整个系统的生理学。所以如今的进展简直令人难以置信。

Just like to me, you know, knowing about neuroplasticity, knowing about, you know because, you know, I was of the age in Felden not Feldenkrais, in physio. Physiology was such a new thing when I trained. I mean they were the first little bits of really beginning to understand physiology, if you like. The physiology of the nervous system, the physiology of whole system. So the advances that have been made are unbelievable.

我不想迷失在那些理论中，用它们来标榜我们如何如何。我认为费登奎斯社区里已经有很多人在做这件事，而且做得比我好得多。我属于那种更想坚守基本原理的人——虽然我们对这些原理的解释方式和使用语言可能会变，但他提出的那些根本原则，我认为从未改变。

And I don't want to get lost in that they, how we can use that to say that we're this or we're that. I think there's plenty of people in the Feldenkrais community who do that already and do it much better than I do. I think I'm one of those people who want to stick more to the fundamentals, and how those fundamentals, how we explain them might change and the language we use, but those fundamentals of what he put forward, I think haven't changed.

所以对你来说，费登奎斯方法并没有固定的教条，也不是一套关于'这些就是方法中的知识'的体系。它更像是...

So to you there's not really a setting stone what is Method, there's not really a system of these are the knowledges in Feldenkrais Method. It's more

我认为是'认识你自己'。

I think it's know yourself.

对，更像是这个非常宏大的根本意图，关于...

Yeah, it's more just this very big fundamental intention of where

完全正确。必须如此。这里涉及太多层面了——如何将意图转化为行动？如果你明白自己在做什么，就能实现所想。

you Absolutely. Want to Absolutely. And so many things there. How do you put your intention into action? You know, if you You know, I just like, if you know what you're doing, can do what you want.

我会不断强调：重点不在于拥有多种选择（虽然这极其重要），而在于能够选择当下最适合你的那个。他提出的某些基本原理，我认为非常精妙。比如我最推崇的'认识你自己'。

I'm gonna keep coming back or, you know, it's not about having a variety of options. That's incredibly important. But the ability to choose the one that works for you at that point in time. You know, some of those fundamentals that, I think are pretty amazing In what he said. You know, I love, you know, what is it, know yourself.

但人生中总有这样的时刻：你以为了解自己，随后却发现那个认知并不真实。这可能意味着你能放下某些执念，或是发现曾经从未允许自己触及的可能性。

But, you know, those moments in your life where you thought you knew yourself and then you discover that what you thought about yourself wasn't really true. And that can either be, you know, that I can let something go or there's there's an expanded possibility there that I wasn't even allowing.

是啊，或是意识到某些情境导致了我过去未能察觉的行为模式

Yeah, or there's these conditions that caused me to behave that way that I didn't

千真万确。当他谈到'你是在回应还是反应'时——何时需要适应环境，何时让环境适应你？正如我所说，每次研读他的论述，总能从中挖掘出真金。

Absolutely. Absolutely. And when, you know, I when he'd talk about, you know, are you are you in response or reaction? When do you have to adapt to the environment and when do you want the environment to be able to adapt to you? You know, I think there's just as I said, I go through his when he's talking and I there's just gold in there for me.

我能看出他在ATM中运用了所有这些理念。我认为这就是区别所在。而且，我觉得自己是个相当不错的老师，我有相当不错的...

And I can see that he's applying every single bit of those in ATM. And that's I think the difference, you know. And, you know, I think I'm a fairly good teacher. I have a fairly good, you know

哦，我做过那个。

Oh, I've done that.

对我自己的认知。然而他的教学仍在启发我。这不是...我并不认识这个人，所以或许我可以为他开脱很多，但正如我所说，当他教学时，有些东西让我明白他教给我的关乎更宏大的事物，这种不断融入各种需要我思考的理念的能力。所以我认为不仅仅是动作本身，还包括他所涵盖的内容。

Idea with myself. And yet his teaching still teaches me, you know. I can, you know and this isn't I didn't know the man so maybe I can let him off the hook a lot but there was some as I said, there was something when he taught that I knew it was about my that was bigger things that he was teaching me about and this ability to keep winding in all of these ideas that I would have to think about. So it's I don't think it is just the movements. It's what he was also including.

他用一种...是的，我在过程中全情投入。所以我并非像...你知道...像个被动接受者那样坐着说'告诉我真理吧，摩西'。不，完全不是。

And he did it in a way that Yeah, I was engaged in a process while I was doing it. So I wasn't just sitting there like a, you know, a Oh, tell me Moshe. Let me know the truth. No. No.

你必须亲身去体验。

You have to experience it personally.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我在想：你刚才谈到的远比动作更重要，远比我身体疼痛的缓解更重要。将费登奎斯归类为身体工作是否错误？我们在介绍这个方法时，是否应该更强调这个更完整的生命层面？

So here's what I'm thinking. Like what you just talked about is way bigger than movements, way bigger than letting go of the pain in my body. Is it a wrong categorization to say Feldenkrais is bodywork? Or should we put more emphasis in when we are presenting this method on this more whole being?

听着，这取决于你的受众。真的取决于受众，了解他们的语言。如果面对运动损伤的人，他们感兴趣的是动作改善。所以我会引导课程让他们在动作中感受更多自我，但会更侧重'这样是否更轻松高效，能击中球'。

Look, think again it depends on your audience. I really think it depends on your audience, knowing the language that they speak. So, you know, if I'm going to talk to someone who's come in here with a sporting injury, they're interested in, you know, how they move. That's their interest. So I'm gonna stream lesson toward including more of themselves in the movement, but it's gonna be more directed to can you feel this is easier, more efficient, you can hit the ball.

明白吗？你必须解放头脑。要结合对他们重要的功能或动作。但我不希望他们只停留在'这是关于够东西'，我要让他们意识到'是整个自我的参与让动作变轻松了'。

Do you know what mean? You've got to free your head. You've got taking it into the function or the action that's important for them. But I also don't want them just to get lost in this is about reaching. I want them to go, there's something about all of you being in the action that's making this easier.

而面对焦虑症或严重疼痛的人，比如长期疼痛者，我发现他们注意力总在疼痛上——通过交流我能感觉到这就是他们的世界。那么如何让他们开始意识到：除了疼痛，你还可以关注其他感觉系统？

Whereas someone who's coming in, say with an anxiety disorder or maybe a lot of pain, you know, I want them to feel So someone in a lot of pain for example, that maybe, you know, and work out that what they pay attention to is pain. That's their you know, we have a conversation and I can begin to get this sense that that's their world. That's what they're attending to. Yeah. So that how can we begin to know that there's other sensory systems that you can pay attention to besides just pain?

是的。而且如果你开始关注其他事情，你的大脑就不会一直被疼痛所占据。

Yeah. And that maybe if you start paying attention to some other things, your brain isn't going to get keep getting hijacked by pain.

那有焦虑问题的人呢？

What about people with anxiety problems?

嗯，同样地，对于焦虑症，我会观察他们能否向我展示他们何时感到焦虑。比如如果我在和一小群人讨论焦虑问题，我可能会问他们：你们是如何安排自己变得焦虑的？你们具体做了什么？

Well, again, I think with anxiety again, I'd looking at could they demonstrate to me when they get anxious? So if I was talking to say a small group of people about anxiety, I'd probably say to them, how do you organise to be anxious? What do you do?

让它看起来像是故意为之的。

Make it as if it's intentional.

对。明白我的意思吗？就是自我觉察一下。你做了什么？然后或许能让他们注意到这些行为。

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Just just feel for yourself. What do you do? And then maybe get them to maybe notice.

同样，我可能需要给他们一些提示：你能活动下骨盆吗？懂我意思吗？你的头部能自由转动吗？你的注意力集中在哪？

And again, I might have to give them a few things. Can you move your pelvis there? Do you know what I mean? How free is your head to look around? Where is your attention?

是完全集中在内心世界还是外界环境？所以我要观察他们的身体组织方式——如果这么说成立的话。这种焦虑其实是他们自己构建的一种身体组织模式。如果我们做几个动作，比如焦虑时通常身体会轻微离地蜷缩（懂我意思吧），我们可以尝试什么有效的微动作？

Is it all on your internal world or are you in the outside world? So I'm going to look at what they're organizing, if that makes sense. That this again it's an organization that they're doing to be anxious. Then if we just did a few movements, so if it was anxiety and usually anxiety is lifting off the ground a little bit, you know what I mean and flexing. What's a good little movement we could do?

可能是这样：先低头，然后逐步带动肩膀、骨盆、膝盖和髋部。这样你会进入他们熟悉的模式——而且通常不对称，可能会偏向某一侧。哪边做起来更轻松？观察这种组织模式后，就问：现在你注意到什么？从这个状态开始还容易焦虑吗？

It might be, you know, looking down and gradually including your shoulders and your pelvis and your knees and your hips. So you're going into maybe the pattern they know and it's not always symmetrical so you might go a little bit to one side. Is it easier to do one side, the other side? Looking at that organisation and then just saying now what do you notice now? Would it be as easy to get anxious from here?

或者如果开始感到焦虑，你知道有什么方法可以摆脱吗？就像你说的'演讲前我确实需要思考'，但我很快会回归到身体组织的问题。有次我给理疗师团队做演讲时特别有意思——他们那种'准备倾听'或'保持开放心态'的身体组织模式，让我意识到大多数人根本不可能听进去。他们瘫坐在后排的样子就像在说：来说服我吧朱莉，证明你讲的东西有价值。

Or if you started to get anxious have you got some ideas about what you could do to get out of it? So again, you said yeah, so I really want to think about before I present, but I do want to bring it back to organization pretty quickly. I was doing a presentation to a group of physios, and it was so interesting because the organisation that they were in to listen or to be open minded I didn't have a hope in hell of the majority of them listening. You know? So they were back here, slumped.

作为费登奎斯疗法从业者，我通过观察身体组织就能明白：我需要争取所有人吗？还是只关注那些真正感兴趣的人？懂我意思吧？我不需要说服全世界。

And it was like, well, convince me, Julie. Convince me that this is something that you could that would be good, you know? So because I look at organisation as a Feldenkrais practitioner, I can see that I know well, it doesn't Do I need to get all of them or am I going to be interested in the people who are interested? Do you know what I mean? I don't have to convince the world.

我很喜欢有些人会走过来惊叹道‘哇，这真的很有趣，我可以把它用在我的客户身上’。但他们本就是思维开放的人。如果我确实拥有这种能力，随着时间推移可能会获得更多赞誉——比如‘注意看你是如何聆听这场演讲的’。现在的我已有勇气这么做。

I love it that you'll get some people who come up and go Wow that was really interesting. I can use that with my clients. But they are already people who are not stuck in their thinking. If I did have that and you know as I go on I'd probably get a bit more kudos to go notice how you're listening to this presentation. I'd have the guts to do that now.

换作以前我可不敢。你是如何倾听的？你对接收到的信息保持开放心态吗？你如何判断？

I wouldn't have had it before. How do you listen? Do you feel open to the information that's coming in? How would you know?

你只是把ATM（费登奎斯方法中的动中觉察）当作小聪明罢了。

You are just doing ATM as a smart.

但我觉得这正是我们真正擅长的——观察人们的身体组织状态。直接判断：他们的头部在这里是否自由？能否转移重心？是否处于可以自由移动的状态？还是太过不稳定？

But I think that's what we are really good at, looking at people's organisation. And just saying is their head free here? Can they shift their weight? Are they in a place where they have got possibilities to move? Or are they too unstable?

他们就在这里。因此随着时间推移，我对自己作为费登奎斯从业者的工作内容越来越清晰，这对我帮助极大，也让我的工作生活轻松了许多。

They are here. So it's been really good for me as I have gone on to just get clearer and clearer and clearer about what I do as a Feldenkrais practitioner. And it's made my life so much easier, my working life.

若清楚自己在做什么，就能随心所欲。

If you know what you're doing you can do what you want.

完全正确。我认为这正是刚毕业时的挣扎所在——你仍在纠结‘作为费登奎斯从业者我该做什么？’

Absolutely. And I think that's the struggle when you first graduate. You're still struggling with this idea of what do I do as a Feldenkrais practitioner?

是啊，太真实了。每次有人问我‘什么是费登奎斯方法？’我都想要个标准答案。但你说的其实是——视情况而定。

Yes, so true. So true. I want this standard answer when everybody asks me, what is Feldenkrais method? But what you are saying is like, it depends.

千真万确。不过这样很好，因为当人们再次询问时，我能从问题中感受到他们的好奇。‘知道我在困惑什么吗？朱莉，到底什么是费登奎斯？’

Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know it's really good because if people ask you again and I can see that there is a curiosity in their question. Do you know what I'm missing? Well, what is Feldenkrais, Julie?

‘你具体是做什么的？’我很乐意与他们深入交流。知道吗？比如我会问：‘当你产生好奇心时，有没有注意到自己正在做什么？’

What is it that you do? I'm really happy to engage with them. Do you know? And you know, well, you know, well, do you notice? I might say to them, do you notice as you are getting curious here what are you doing?

或者随便怎么说都行。但如果我和某人在一起，处于闲聊场合，我会非常直截了当地说——哦你是费登奎斯治疗师啊，那挺有意思的，什么是费登奎斯？我就会现编一套说辞：费登奎斯就是让你更清晰地觉察自身行为，关注自己的动作，将更多自我纳入意识版图从而拓展可能性。这是其中一种解释。明白我的意思吗？只要看到对方眼里闪过一丝兴趣，我就满足了。

Or you know, whatever. Whereas if I've got someone and I'm somewhere and it's general chit chat, know and I'm back here and I'm being very blunt and saying oh you're a Feldenkrais practitioner, oh that interesting what's what's Feldenkrais and I just go I just make up I'll say Feldenkrais you know I'll just go come out with one of my blurbs about Feldenkrais is becoming much more aware of what you do, paying attention to what you do, including more of yourself in your image so you have more possibilities. That's one. Do you know what I mean? But if I can see that that gets a glimmer then I'm happy.

但如果没反应也无所谓。

But if not, that's fine.

如果对方只是在进行社交性对话。

If the person is just doing a social conversation.

他们只是在社交应酬，这很正常。我们都会这样。但我不愿耗费太多精力去说服他们。因为关系是双向的。我能分辨出哪些人经历过疼痛或长期不适，但他们内心仍保持着开放性。

They are doing the social thing, which is fine. We all do it. But I'm not going to spend a lot of my time and effort in trying to convince them. Because a relationship is about two people. And I can tell when people have been in pain or they've had a lot of discomfort, know, but there's still an openness in them.

你能感觉到他们身上有种特质，不是被他人勉强来的，即便真是被介绍来的也依然保有那种特质。因为费登奎斯方法的核心正是如此——如何培养人们对自身的好奇心？运动员群体也不例外。

You still feel that there's, you know, there's something there. They haven't been just sent along by someone or if they have that there's still something there. Because that to me is what Feldenkrais is talking about. How do we develop this ability for people to be curious about themselves? And that's even with sports people.

明白吗？只要能激发他们对自身行为的好奇——比如让运动员真正理解，在比赛时（视运动项目而定）他们根本无暇思考动作细节。

Do you know what I mean? If you can get them curious in what they're doing, you know, and really understanding with sports people that when they're playing sport, depending on the sport, they don't wanna be thinking about what they're doing.

噢没错，他们必须全神贯注。

Oh, yeah. They're on the go.

他们的注意力必须集中在别处。所以我不能对他们说'注意你的手腕走向'。虽然费登奎斯在ATM课程中会把动作分解到极致，但最终还是要快速完成整套动作。

You know, their attention has to be somewhere else. So, you know, I can't say to them, oh, think about where your wrist is going. You know? We might have broken all of that down, which is what Feldenkrais does in ATM. He breaks something down into incredible detail, and then he just does the whole movement really quickly.

你会自创ATM课程吗？

Do you create your own ATM?

以前从不，因为对自己不够信任。我完全遵循费登奎斯设计的ATM课程，坚信其中蕴含着我无法——恕我直言——搞砸的奥妙。即便不能完全理解，只要跟随练习就会浮现出更高效的动作模式。懂吗？

I never used to, because I didn't feel I didn't trust myself enough. So I absolutely used to follow because I trusted the ATMs that Feldenkrais had done. I really trusted that there was a there was something in there that I couldn't, if you like, fuck up to sort of use that vernacular. That if I followed that, even if I didn't fully understand it, that something would emerge that was more efficient. Yeah?

而真正理解这一点是在我继续深入之后。我能理解是因为我在公众场合教授ATM四年后就停止了。那时我主要教团体课，更多是工作坊或培训形式。所以FI一直是我的专长领域，对吧？但现在我很欣慰自己能理解他当初追求的目标了。

And it's really only as I've gone on. And I can understand it because I stopped teaching ATM after about four years in the public. I taught a lot of it was then more just group, you know, more a workshop or in trainings. So FI has always been my domain, yeah? And but I love now that I can because I understand what he was after now.

现在我更容易开发课程内容，也更能理解什么构成了真正的动中觉察课程。归根结底是要调动整个人——我们在这节课中如何引导注意力。明白吗？这包含我们实践过的所有要素。

So I find it much easier to develop something and understand what makes an awareness through movement lesson an awareness through movement lesson. Comes back to involving the whole person. How we we're the attention in this lesson. You know, do I wanna go? It's all the things that we've done.

懂我意思吗？我观察到学员们动作仍偏向外围，而我想要引入远端和中心的概念。所以得考虑该怎么做？通常我不愿带太多ATM动作——你提问时提到是否有不同做法，这问题很棒。

Do you know what I mean? I'm noticing people and they they're moving still much more peripherally, and I wanna get distal in there. I wanna get central in there. So, you know, what am I gonna do? And often I don't wanna go through a whole lot of ATMs because I loved your question in here, where you said, did you have different No.

有人说做FI就像即兴创作ATM，但这不是我的工作方式。FI的美妙之处就在于没有固定模式——我知道有些人很早就掌握这种理念，他们对事物有更深层次的理解。

Someone says doing FI is like improvising an ATM on the spot. It's not how I work. And that to me is the beauty of FI, Understanding there's not one way of doing it. Yeah, that's gonna work for someone. I know people who were doing that very early on.

而我可能更理解学习本质。我们各自都有擅长的领域，重要的是找到适合自己的方法。

They understood something at a different level. But I understood more about learning probably. Okay. You know? So I think we all have our strengths, if you like.

但我仍需框架支撑——前几天的培训中他们讨论功能目标时，我的思路就不同。我不以功能为导向，虽然很多人是这么思考的。

But we have to find our way. So I have to have still a scaffold. And my scaffold is not, you know, when I was in you know, at the training the other day and they're talking about, you know, wasn't a thing and they were saying, yeah but what's the function you're after? And I think I don't think that way. Okay, yeah.

我不考虑推或拉这类功能，而是关注实现这些动作的基础条件。比如够取动作不只是手臂伸展，而是涉及地面反作用力。

I don't think function. And I know many people do, Yeah. But I don't think pushing or pulling. Yes, they're functions, but I'm looking at what what allows you to push or pull. Not that it's just about I've learnt to reach up there.

骨盆和头部都需要协调参与——向不同方位够取时，身体组织方式截然不同。

Yeah or I've learnt to reach there. So for me reaching involves using the ground. Again pelvis having possibilities, the head having possibilities, understanding. Because it's very different if I'm gonna reach over here to if I'm gonna reach over here.

同侧还是对侧？

Same side or different side.

没错，这会产生完全不同的身体协调模式。正如Lesley书中所写，我始终思考那些根本性主题——它们构成了我理解人体组织的底层逻辑。

Yeah. You know, it's a different organisation coming through. So I'm much more again I think it's a lot of it's just what Lesley wrote in the book. I really do think of those big themes all the time. That under really underlie my way of looking at organisation.

是的，我想我问这个问题是因为在培训中我们讨论过，为什么在没有模板指导的情况下进行AI开发时，很难知道下一步该做什么？模板就像ATM机，步骤已经设计好，你只需跟着做就会有结果。但即兴发挥时，我们怎么知道即兴创作能产生什么结果呢？这可能就是为什么有些人追求一个函数，至少这样你有一个明确的方向。

Yeah, I think I asked this question because it's during the training we were discussing why it's so hard to know what to do next when you're doing an AI if you're not following a template? Like templates sounds like an ATM where the steps are already designed, you just follow it and something will come out. When you're improvising, it's like, how do we know what we're improvising gonna have something come out? And that's probably why some people were aiming for a function, so at least you have a direction where you're going.

完全正确。但这就是我说的。这取决于什么能推动那个人的学习。你知道吗？我们每个人都有自己的学习历程。

Absolutely. But that's what I'm saying. It depends on what's gonna take that person's learning somewhere. You know? And we all have our personal journey for that.

所以我个人的历程还在继续，已经持续很长时间了。当我开始理解更深层次的概念时，当我不断回头阅读他的书《什么是理想功能？》时，你知道吗，就是要明白，了解我的理想功能，知道我有这些方向，我必须在每个位置上都理解这一点。我不能只在仰卧、坐着、侧躺或倒立时学习，我必须全面掌握，必须将那个更大的概念模板化。

So my personal journey that I'm still on that's been going for a long time, When I started to see the deeper ideas, when I just kept going back to reading in his book, What's Ideal Function? You know, and just going, well, and to know that ideal function of knowing my, you know, that I've got these direction, I have to know that in every position. I can't just learn it on my back or in sitting, you know, or lying on my side or upside down. I've got to learn it. I have to template that bigger idea.

因为这非常不同。我需要知道什么才能伸手够到地面，或者够到背后？

Because it's very different. What do I need to know to reach down to the ground to reaching behind my back?

是的，是的，伸手的方式是不同的。

Yeah. Yeah. It's different reaching.

是的，而且它们有一点不同。是的。一旦你理解了它们是不同的伸手方式，那么我就能明白，你可以说，哦，这个ATM更多是关于朝那个方向伸手。你知道吗？

Yeah. And there's a little they're different reaching. Yeah. And once you understand that, that they're different reaching, then I can see that you can go, oh well this ATM is more about reaching in that direction. You know?

这是找到一种整体的方式来组织自己，通过空间移动到那里。所以我喜欢把它放在一个更大的背景中。

And it's finding a whole way of organising yourself to move through space to go there. So I like to sort of put it into a I suppose a bigger context.

整个人体的背景。

The context of the whole person.

是的，是的。因为这就是大脑有趣的地方，不是吗？我可以做一个ATM，我理解了。或者你知道，我可能还是会在那里理解它。

Yeah. Yeah. Because that's the interesting thing about the brain isn't it, you know? I can do an ATM and I get that. Or you know, I still might get it out there.

我向下移动时理解了吗？我横向移动时理解了吗？我的注意力在哪里？因为如果我的注意力集中在整个身体上，那么我可能就能迁移这种理解。他在这里理解了一些根本的东西。

Did I get it going down? Did I get it going across? Where was my attention? Because maybe if my attention was on all of me, then I could transfer that. There's something fundamental here that he understood.

好的，这就是今天的节目内容。

Okay, that's the episode for today.

是吗？一些基础的东西。所以即使我在做那件事，但每个部分都

Yeah? Something fundamental. So that even if I'm doing that, but every part of

我

me is

一个建议。

a suggestion.

我的臀部，我的肩膀，谢谢。我已经做了

My hips, my shoulders, thank you. I've done

所有这些非常亚洲化的姿势，

all these very Asian positions,

你知道，和他们一起的真实内容。

you know, real stuff here with them.

通过调整身体不同部位来完善我的形象，这样或许我就能朝更多方向发展，因为我已经让一个方向变得非常容易。

Done things to bring different parts of me into my image, but then maybe I can begin to go in more directions, because I've made one direction really easy.

通过这个过程，你提升了更多的自我。

And through this process you improve more of yourself.

完全正确，完全正确。

Absolutely, absolutely.

你认为费登奎斯方法是否已被更多学科如心理学家、物理治疗师等接受？

Do you think the Feldenkrais method has been accepted by more disciplines like psychologists, physio?

如果从科学角度来看——再次声明我不在研究委员会，所以并非最佳解答人选——根据我的经验，通常对这种方法反应最积极的是临床医师。那些实际在一线接触患者、意识到自己还能做得更多，或正思考如何丰富自己工作方法的人。因为他们面对客户时会不断提出问题，这与学术界人士截然不同。我发现学术界往往更为封闭。

If you look at the scientific, and again I'm not on the research committee so I'm not the really good person to ask here. I would generally say in my experience the people who respond best when I've been talking to them, other people, are the clinicians. The people who are actually out in the world working with people, realising that there's more they could do or they're asking questions about I think something more could be added to my mix of what I do. And I find generally because they're with clients and they're asking questions, that's very different to the academics. I find the academics generally are much more closed.

这只是我的个人体会。

That's been- that's just my personal experience.

你所说的学术界人士，是指那些研究疗效评估的人吗？就是那些...

So when you say academics, it's like people examining like the efficacy- The people who

做研究的人。对，没错。要知道这里一切都讲究证据基础。而对我来说，那些临床工作者——再次强调这纯属个人观点——

are doing the research. Yeah, okay. Yeah? And you know everything's so evidenced based here You know? Whereas it's for me the people who are and again this is just my personal thing.

正是临床医师的这种开放态度让我开始接触费登奎斯：为什么患者持续回访？我们还能做些什么？我特别欣赏那些无论专攻哪个领域，都清楚自己很专业却仍保持求知欲的临床医师。

But the clinicians, and I suppose that's what got me a little bit into Feldenkrais going, Well, why are people keeping coming back? Is there something else that we could do? Or So it's that openness, if you like, already. I love it when you meet clinicians of any persuasion who know they're really good at what they do and there's more. You know, I love that.

他们的自我认知从不会停留在'这就该是终极方案'的状态。

That their ego is never in a place of, this is what it should be.

我的方法更好，你的太

My method is better, yours is too

昂贵了。完全同意。这些人始终保持着开放心态。

expensive. Absolutely. Yeah. They're the people who I think are just as open as they've always been.

是啊。

Yeah.